Frugal Living: 22 new messages in 13 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Life span of heating system?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3be3b7e9d211514b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 9 2008 11:38 am
From: Charles Quinn

"Joe" <really-faked-but-works@yunx.com> wrote in
news:yvmrj.283$qV2.269@trnddc04:

> Natural gas service...
>
> Forced hot water baseboard heating...
>
> Furnace is in the basement and the baseboard heating is on the first
> floor only.
>
> Water service to the house has a regulator to limit pressure.
>
> Not worried about the B&G pump, but the furnace lifespan itself...
> Any ideas how long these things last on average? I've heard 25 years.
> Google has a million different answers depending on who you listen
> to.
>

The answer is ------- depends!

How often is the boiler used?
How has it been maintained?
Was it a high quality unit?
Was it a good installation?
Is it in good working order now?
Will you be living in the place for a long/short time?

Since the newer units are much more energy efficient you need to run the
numbers and look at how much more efficient a new model is. Will it have
a good payback rate for the new unit? Are there rebates available?

http://www.njcleanenergy.com/residential/programs/warmadvantage/warmadvan
tage

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=boilers.pr_boilers

Charles
The significant problems we face cannot be solved
at the same level of thinking we were at when we
created them. Albert Einstein

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Don't Buy "Hormel REAL Bacon Bits"
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/96d82509a818239a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 9 2008 11:57 am
From: Vic Smith

On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 10:58:53 -0800 (PST), Dave <djensen36@cox.net>
wrote:
>
>I agree George. Hot dogs at Nathan's taste mighty good. But sometimes
>it is the environment that makes the hot dog taste so good . . . At a
>ball game, or a sports event, there is nothing better than a hot dog
>and a beer.
>
>I know it sounds like a contradiction, but I could eat that hot dog at
>the ballpark and then come home and get totally grossed out by taking
>the same off-cut pork scraps and sprinkling them on my salad or baked
>potato. Like I said, it's the environment as well.
>
Right. Even hags look beautiful to the drunken.
Haven't had Nathans, but they are universally praised.
"Best Kosher" dogs taste good anywhere, and are available here.
Expensive compared to most dogs, but worth it to me.
BTW, thanks for the post about bacon bits.
Though I don't buy them, others might.
Funny how you post something well-written, and on-topic to the
newsgroup, and immediately get slammed.
Oh well.

--Vic

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 9 2008 12:17 pm
From: hchickpea@hotmail.com

On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 13:57:48 -0600, Vic Smith
<thismailautodeleted@comcast.net> wrote:

>On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 10:58:53 -0800 (PST), Dave <djensen36@cox.net>
>wrote:
>>
>>I agree George. Hot dogs at Nathan's taste mighty good. But sometimes
>>it is the environment that makes the hot dog taste so good . . . At a
>>ball game, or a sports event, there is nothing better than a hot dog
>>and a beer.
>>
>>I know it sounds like a contradiction, but I could eat that hot dog at
>>the ballpark and then come home and get totally grossed out by taking
>>the same off-cut pork scraps and sprinkling them on my salad or baked
>>potato. Like I said, it's the environment as well.
>>
>Right. Even hags look beautiful to the drunken.
>Haven't had Nathans, but they are universally praised.
>"Best Kosher" dogs taste good anywhere, and are available here.
>Expensive compared to most dogs, but worth it to me.
>BTW, thanks for the post about bacon bits.
>Though I don't buy them, others might.
>Funny how you post something well-written, and on-topic to the
>newsgroup, and immediately get slammed.
>Oh well.

That is the nature of the beast called usenet. It is made up of
off-the-shoulder chips and scraps of knowledge and opinion, all
pressed together into neat little casings, ready for mass consumption.
If you want kosher knowledge, read an encyclopedia.

Personally, I don't like Nathan's hot dogs or a lot of the other
high-end brands that border on being polish sausage. For something
quick to toss in the microwave, the Oscar Meyer all-beef are fine for
me. If I want something tastier, I'll get something cheaper and slow
fry it in butter until the casing has some crispiness and char.

The whole "isn't that iccky" argument seems a little silly to me,
since I bet 90% of the people here complaining about hot dogs have
eaten hamburgers without a second thought where the meat came from, or
worse yet, turkey burgers - where the parts are even more exotic.

I have known exactly one non-vegetarian that had never eaten
hamburger. The closest he would come to it was cube steak. I found
it an interesting idea, since no matter how rushed he was, fast food
was not an option, and he got a chance to sit down to a real meal for
lunch.

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 9 2008 1:47 pm
From: Vic Smith

On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 15:17:35 -0500, hchickpea@hotmail.com wrote:

>
>Personally, I don't like Nathan's hot dogs or a lot of the other
>high-end brands that border on being polish sausage. For something
>quick to toss in the microwave, the Oscar Meyer all-beef are fine for
>me. If I want something tastier, I'll get something cheaper and slow
>fry it in butter until the casing has some crispiness and char.
>
>The whole "isn't that iccky" argument seems a little silly to me,
>since I bet 90% of the people here complaining about hot dogs have
>eaten hamburgers without a second thought where the meat came from, or
>worse yet, turkey burgers - where the parts are even more exotic.
>
>I have known exactly one non-vegetarian that had never eaten
>hamburger. The closest he would come to it was cube steak. I found
>it an interesting idea, since no matter how rushed he was, fast food
>was not an option, and he got a chance to sit down to a real meal for
>lunch.

Some of it is tolerance to pork fat. My favorite meat used to be
rolled pork loin. I'd suck the binding strings clean too. My stomach
just can't handle that fat any more. Maybe a blessing in disguise.
The beef dogs I like are low in fat, and though ground beef can be
bought with low fat, I actually prefer the "normal" ground beef for
taste, so I guess beef fat is kinder to my stomach.
I consider "fast food" a DEFCON 1 option only.
Except for Egg/Bacon MacMuffins while traveling.

--Vic

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 9 2008 2:23 pm
From: "Chloe"

"max" <betatron@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:betatron-762A4D.11563309022008@news.ftupet.com...
><snip>
> You're eating scraps. Salted, cured, deep fried scraps. They're bacon
> bits for god's sake. What's next, a treatise of fried pork rinds?

I buy them all the time. They're obviously little shards and crumbs of HAM,
all of the exact same color and consistency--exactly what you'd expect from
smoked, cured meat from the picnic region of a hog. Which is, incidentally,
how the USDA defines "picnic ham."

Dave, I went looking for some industry source that would confirm that
something with "picnic" in the name is expressly NOT picnic. Couldn't find
one. Maybe you could clear this up with a few citations.

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 9 2008 3:18 pm
From: George

max wrote:
> In article <A9mdnQykYJ44aDDanZ2dnUVZ_o-dnZ2d@comcast.com>,
> George <george@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
>> max wrote:
>>> In article
>>> <8dad3e80-8f5b-4e07-a89d-1d3b69888077@v46g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>,
>>> Dave <djensen36@cox.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Recently, we bought a large bag of Hormel "Real Bacon Bits" at Sam's
>>>> Club. The packaged promised the "delicious taste of real, fresh
>>>> premium bacon" and was a good buy for a year's supply (the way it
>>>> usually goes when you buy something at one of those club stores like
>>>> Sam's or Costco.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Shame on you Hormel. I wonder how many other surprises there are in
>>>> the consumer packaged food business? Got any other good ones?
>>>> Full text article above extracted from http://shamusrham.brogspot.com/
>>>
>>> Sounds a lot like hot dogs or chicken nuggets. get over yourself.
>>>
>> Not really, hot dogs can certainly be a "garbage product" when
>> considering "sams best" hot dogs at walmart. There are certainly quality
>> hot dogs that aren't made from mechanically separated scraps but they
>> won't be at the big box mart at 2lbs/$1 .
>
> i'm lucky. My girlfriend lives about a mile from the Vienna Beef hot dog
> factory. We go there for hot dogs, at their employee cafeteria, which
> is open to the public.
>
Me too, We have a great local 3rd generation butcher shop that makes
great dogs from actual meat using natural casings.

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 9 2008 4:19 pm
From: Dave

On Feb 9, 4:18 pm, George <geo...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> max wrote:
> > In article <A9mdnQykYJ44aDDanZ2dnUVZ_o-dn...@comcast.com>,
> > George <geo...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
> >> max wrote:
> >>> In article
> >>> <8dad3e80-8f5b-4e07-a89d-1d3b69888...@v46g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>,
> >>> Dave <djense...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> >>>> Recently, we bought a large bag of Hormel "Real Bacon Bits" at Sam's
> >>>> Club. The packaged promised the "delicious taste of real, fresh
> >>>> premium bacon" and was a good buy for a year's supply (the way it
> >>>> usually goes when you buy something at one of those club stores like
> >>>> Sam's or Costco.)
>
> >>>> Shame on you Hormel. I wonder how many other surprises there are in
> >>>> the consumer packaged food business? Got any other good ones?
> >>>> Full text article above extracted fromhttp://shamusrham.brogspot.com/
>
> >>> Sounds a lot like hot dogs or chicken nuggets. get over yourself.
>
> >> Not really, hot dogs can certainly be a "garbage product" when
> >> considering "sams best" hot dogs at walmart. There are certainly quality
> >> hot dogs that aren't made from mechanically separated scraps but they
> >> won't be at the big box mart at 2lbs/$1 .
>
> > i'm lucky. My girlfriend lives about a mile from the Vienna Beef hot dog
> > factory. We go there for hot dogs, at their employee cafeteria, which
> > is open to the public.
>
> Me too, We have a great local 3rd generation butcher shop that makes
> great dogs from actual meat using natural casings.

Its hard to find places like that nowadays, because they are getting
run out of town by places like Super Walmart. Our little town of
15,000 now has a Super Walmart and the "butchers" there have no real
information about cuts of meat, etc.

Dave

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 9 2008 4:28 pm
From: The Real Bev

Dave wrote:

> On Feb 9, 10:37 am, max <betat...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> Dave <djense...@cox.net> wrote:
>> > Recently, we bought a large bag of Hormel "Real Bacon Bits" at Sam's
>> > Club. The packaged promised the "delicious taste of real, fresh
>> > premium bacon" and was a good buy for a year's supply (the way it
>> > usually goes when you buy something at one of those club stores like
>> > Sam's or Costco.)
>>
>> > Shame on you Hormel. I wonder how many other surprises there are in
>> > the consumer packaged food business? Got any other good ones?
>> > Full text article above extracted fromhttp://shamusrham.brogspot.com/
>>
>> Sounds a lot like hot dogs or chicken nuggets. get over yourself.
>
> Yes, it is. I read this discussion to keep my eyes on what is good and
> bad in the world of frugal products, food and otherwise. When
> something says it is "REAL Bacon Bits" and then it ends up being more
> like Hot Dog Bits, that fits the discussion here, right?
>
> Maybe it doesn't gross you out, but I can't see sprinkling little bits
> of the cheaziest hot dog 'meat' in the world on my salad,

You sould like you think that bacon is actually GOOD for you! Granted,
fat, salt and nitrites are yummy, but worrying about the nourishment
value of bacon is as useful as pounding sand.

BTW, the pre-cooked microwave bacon is really good. I've tried several
brands, all of which were good. BUT... the stuff that Costco sells is
thick-cut bacon, which in this case is NOT particularly good. Too bad,
because it's much more expensive in the smaller packages -- although
it's probably not much more expensive than raw bacon in terms of final
cooked product.

--
Cheers, Bev
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I'm pretty sure omnipotent entities don't need
middlemen to get their message to the people.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Chloe Handbags Find a Sale on a Great Chloe Handbag
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5950c82a0f672688?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 9 2008 1:24 pm
From: swg4khpbqhsww7bdsncc@gmail.com

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: How to get your grocer to carry an item?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d92bd3df49819244?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 9 2008 2:21 pm
From: "Dave"

"OhioGuy" <none@none.net> wrote in message news:foci5t$tdb$1@aioe.org...
> http://www.delmonte.com/products/TomatoesList.asp?typeID=16
>
>
> I'm especially looking for the Garlic & Herb, Tomato & Basil, plus the 4
> Cheese varieties.

(snip)

Not responding directly, but what the OP is complaining about is going to be
more and more common all the time. The problem is that the major producers
of grocery products are all coming out with new products at an alarming
rate, and supermarkets can only be soooooooooooo big. Right now, if one
supermarket carried all potential supermarket products in the U.S., that
supermarket would likely be larger than the state of Texas.

Just for one example, see how many flavors of soda are offered for sale now
by COKE alone. It's so fricking ridiculous that the newer flavors are
pushing out the MORE POPULAR flavors. At one point in time, Vanilla Coke
was the #1 selling flavor of soda in the United States, outselling Coke
Classic and Pepsi, as well as all other varieties of soda. Now in the
supermarket, you can find such outrageous flavors as "Diet Black Cherry
Vanilla Coke" and "Diet Cherry Chocolate Dr Pepper" (no, I didn't make that
up!), but try finding ordinary Diet Vanilla Coke or Diet Vanilla -cola- made
by anybody (including caffeine, that is). It's tough. I picked up a
12-pack of diet vanilla pepsi 2 weeks ago, and now our local supermarkets
don't carry it anymore.

Again, Vanilla Coke used to be the most popular flavor there is. You can
still find it, but shelf space is really limited, and the diet versions of
it are disappearing fast.

Anyway, look for Diet Cherry Lime Vanilla Chocolate Raspberry Lemon Creme
Dr. Pepper coming soon to a supermarket near you! (No really, I'd be
shocked if they don't do that soon). And in the meantime, your favorite
flavor of soda will be discontinued. Sigh...-Dave

==============================================================================
TOPIC: garbage disposal problem
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3de3b07d6b3c16f9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 9 2008 3:57 pm
From: The Real Bev

Dennis wrote:

> <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Hums cause it doesn't know the words.
>>
>>Might be a bad start capacitor. Best to replace the unit. Bad environment,
>>wet all the time. Being fed garbage all day. Who'd want to work like that?
>
> Carp.

That's only because they don't know about Final Placement.

--
Cheers, Bev
=============================================================
"On the other hand, I live in California so I'd be willing to
squeeze schoolchildren to death if I thought some oil would
come out." -- Scott Adams

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Some TV Converter box coupon program questions
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/10e2e2b6ac55d8cb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 9 2008 4:19 pm
From: The Real Bev

Bob F wrote:

> "Logan Shaw" <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote in message news:479e90de$0$6484
>> On the other hand, I expect that as we get closer and closer
>> to the switchover day, analog TVs will get so cheap as to be
>> either practically or literally free for the taking. At that
>> point, you might as well ditch your low-quality obsolete
>> television and trade up for a high-quality obsolete television,
>> since it will cost you next to nothing. Either that, or pick
>> up free (or buy for cheap) about 10 or 20 obsolete televisions
>> and set up a wall of televisions in your garage. If you have
>> cable TV service, you can split the signal and tune each one
>> to a different station, and watch them all at once, just like
>> David Bowie in a certain sci-fi movie from the 1970's. :-)
>
> And then you get to pay to dispose of the TV's in many cities of the US.

In California the Goodwill stores will take electronic waste at no
charge. You may have to take large items to one of the main offices.

--
Cheers, Bev
==================================================
STRESS MANAGEMENT

Picture yourself near a stream.
Birds are singing in the crisp, cool mountain air.
Nothing can bother you here.
No one knows this secret place.
You are in total seclusion from
that place called the world.
The soothing sound of a gentle waterfall
fills the air with a cascade of serenity.
The water is crystal clear.
You can easily make out the face of the person
whose head you're holding under the water.
-- KevinT

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 9 2008 6:15 pm
From: "Bob F"

"The Real Bev" <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:tqrrj.1286$OZ7.726@newsfe05.lga...
> Bob F wrote:
>
>> "Logan Shaw" <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:479e90de$0$6484
>>> On the other hand, I expect that as we get closer and closer
>>> to the switchover day, analog TVs will get so cheap as to be
>>> either practically or literally free for the taking. At that
>>> point, you might as well ditch your low-quality obsolete
>>> television and trade up for a high-quality obsolete television,
>>> since it will cost you next to nothing. Either that, or pick
>>> up free (or buy for cheap) about 10 or 20 obsolete televisions
>>> and set up a wall of televisions in your garage. If you have
>>> cable TV service, you can split the signal and tune each one
>>> to a different station, and watch them all at once, just like
>>> David Bowie in a certain sci-fi movie from the 1970's. :-)
>>
>> And then you get to pay to dispose of the TV's in many cities of the US.
>
> In California the Goodwill stores will take electronic waste at no charge.
> You may have to take large items to one of the main offices.

Here in Seattle, almost no thrift shop will take CRT's anymore, due to the
disposal fees.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 9 2008 9:00 pm
From: The Real Bev

Bob F wrote:

> "The Real Bev" <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:tqrrj.1286$OZ7.726@newsfe05.lga...
>> Bob F wrote:
>>> "Logan Shaw" <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> If you have
>>>> cable TV service, you can split the signal and tune each one
>>>> to a different station, and watch them all at once, just like
>>>> David Bowie in a certain sci-fi movie from the 1970's. :-)
>>>
>>> And then you get to pay to dispose of the TV's in many cities of the US.
>>
>> In California the Goodwill stores will take electronic waste at no charge.
>> You may have to take large items to one of the main offices.
>
> Here in Seattle, almost no thrift shop will take CRT's anymore, due to the
> disposal fees.

It's not for resale, they're an authorized receiver of electronic waste.
I guess somebody pays them to do something with it. Way handier than
the occasional electronic/hazardous waste roundups they have in huge
parking lots every once in a while. Waiting in an hour-long line to
dispose of a pickup-load of old VCRs is a real bummer.

--
Cheers, Bev
xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoo
"There are only two reasons to sit in the back row of an airplane:
Either you have diarrhoea, or you're anxious to meet people who do."
-- Rich Jeni

==============================================================================
TOPIC: FREE PORN LINKS
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3acfd7d84821df36?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 9 2008 5:56 pm
From: haba

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: cell phone plan - pay as you go - daily access fee
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5bb1a0780187549d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 9 2008 6:59 pm
From: "Larry Mehl"

Thanks for the information. It will be a help in my search.

L Mehl

"mehlREMOVETHIS@cyvest.com" <mehl@cyvest.com> wrote in message
news:2f80e6cb-9eba-4727-8ff7-e91ae349d72a@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> Hello --
>
> My AT&T plan ($10 special at Radio Shack) charges $1/day "only on days
> you use your phone"; airtime costs $0.10/min.
>
> Can anyone recommend a pay as you go plan that does not have a cost/
> day access fee?
> Or, is such a fee pretty typical for this type of service?
>
> Thanks for any help or suggestions.
>
> L Mehl
>
>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: looking for quality headphones & cables
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3243b8dd865ec8bf?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 9 2008 7:26 pm
From: "OhioGuy"

I need to wire our basement exercise room so that my wife can get on the
Schwinn Airdyne (which is very loud), and both of us can hear DVD's and such
that we want to watch without having to turn the volume on the stereo up so
loud that we end up with hearing loss.

I've looked at a number of alternatives, such as bluetooth headsets, FM
transmitters coupled with FM radio headphones, etc. Using traditional large
sized stereo headphones with wires seems to be the simples and least
expensive choices.

Can anyone suggest a place where we can get QUALITY components at an
reasonable price?

We'll need 2 sets of headphones (cover the whole ear old fashioned type),
3 stereo headphone extension wires, and a doubler that will let us make the
same stereo signal go out to both headphones.

Thanks for your suggestions! I need to do this sooner rather than
later, because my ears are ringing from the last time we exercised!

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 9 2008 9:24 pm
From: Gene S. Berkowitz

In article <folqsi$an2$1@aioe.org>, none@none.net says...
> I need to wire our basement exercise room so that my wife can get on the
> Schwinn Airdyne (which is very loud), and both of us can hear DVD's and such
> that we want to watch without having to turn the volume on the stereo up so
> loud that we end up with hearing loss.
>
> I've looked at a number of alternatives, such as bluetooth headsets, FM
> transmitters coupled with FM radio headphones, etc. Using traditional large
> sized stereo headphones with wires seems to be the simples and least
> expensive choices.
>
> Can anyone suggest a place where we can get QUALITY components at an
> reasonable price?
>
> We'll need 2 sets of headphones (cover the whole ear old fashioned type),
> 3 stereo headphone extension wires, and a doubler that will let us make the
> same stereo signal go out to both headphones.
>
> Thanks for your suggestions! I need to do this sooner rather than
> later, because my ears are ringing from the last time we exercised!

Though horrendously overpriced, the Bose noise cancelling headphones are
specifically designed for this application (removing loud, constant
background noise, while allowing you to listen to a specific electronic
source).

But it will be much more entertaining to see what you actually come up
with.

--Gene

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TOPIC: What is your water usage?
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==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 9 2008 9:34 pm
From: Gene S. Berkowitz

In article <jpbqq3hg74qj9v72b9j7o3ih41f31mna1o@4ax.com>,
paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca says...
> On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 19:04:18 -0500, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>
> >I don't do that. I did insulate my hot water lines and that makes a nice
> >difference.
>
> Hi Jeff,
>
> I've insulated our hot water pipes as well, but if you seldom draw hot
> water from the kitchen tap, it cools to the point where it must be
> discarded anyway.

Which, health-wise, is probably a good thing. Water standing in the
fixtures will contain lead leached from typical "brass" faucets.
Letting a few gallons down the drain will reduce the lead below
detectable limits.

http://www.mwra.state.ma.us/04water/html/Lead_Faucets.htm

--Gene

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