Frugal Living: 24 new messages in 11 topics

Friday, February 29, 2008

24 new messages in 11 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: recycling a box just cost me 50c
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/02b68c2ffba451c4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 12:34 pm
From: "SpammersDie"

"OhioGuy" <none@none.net> wrote in message news:fq94ml$mh7$1@aioe.org...
> Ok, so 50 cents isn't a lot of money,

That never stops you from complaining.

> What should I have done?

Recycle the box for some other purpose where the box design won't gum up an
assembly line system. There must be a dozen uses for old boxes.

Much as I hate USPS, this is simple common sense.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 12:40 pm
From: Rick

RodSpeed,_dividends_and_cash_flow_are_bubblicious wrote:
>
> On Feb 29, 11:41 am, Samantha Hill - take out TRASH to reply
> <fleetfing...@TRASHgmail.com> wrote:
> > Or turn it inside out and re-glue or re-tape it so it can't be
> > recognized as a priority mail box.
>
> Yep, that will work.
>
> I save padded mailers I get from Ebay purchases and re-use them for
> mailing. I cover the mailer with a brown grocery paper bag so the
> mailer does not show when I mail it.

Good tip - thanks. I hate throwing out bubble mailers that could be
reused, if trying to remove any labels & existing postage stickers
didn't destroy it in the process. Just eliminate the problem. 8-)

Rick

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 1:54 pm
From: Al Bundy

On Feb 29, 11:15 am, max <betat...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> whoever:
>
> > > Then I reasoned, "You are telling me that you are going to CHARGE me to
> > > recycle a box instead of throwing it away?" She said yes - their policy was
> > > that priority mail boxes could only be used for priority mail, even if they
> > > were obviously being reused, and even if all the writing on the box was
> > > marked out.
>
> This is a reasonable position for the post office to take. Your box is
> one of hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, of priority mail boxes
> that get processed every day. It's a distinctive design on purpose, to
> allow such packages to be identified at a glance, amongst other crap,
> from a distance, with great assurance of provenance.
>
> You are _actively _fucking_up_the_system_ by attempting to dilute this
> engineered sorting property of priority mail packaging.
>
> It's similar to industrial safety practice where red padlocks, and red
> padlocks only used for safety lockouts of equipment and for no other
> purpose.
>
> It's the same reason that only Stop signs are red octagons.
>
> Your position is unreasonable, and your reasoning is selfish and it is
> clear that you haven't given this the slightest bit of thought.
>
> .max
>
> --
> This signature can be appended to your outgoing mesages. Many people include in
> their signatures contact information, and perhaps a joke or quotation.

Ah ha, but Ohio Guy is not a reasonable person is he? If he can screw
somebody out a a comic book or whatever, he will do it regardless of
who else pays to repair the system.
They say the guy who tries to save the most ends up spending the most.
I suspect this is the case with this person, although he would never
admit it. Some of his posts reveal it though.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Expectations vs reality
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f7d2ec28a71f317c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 12:44 pm
From: Steve

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>And thats why randomised double blind trials were invented.

Yeah, but the point is that you're typically not able to perform a
randomized double-blind trial. And it helps to recognize that your
brain may be absolutely convinced that one product is better than
another simply because it costs more.

Those who flee temptation generally leave a forwarding address.

...Lane Olinghouse

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 12:58 pm
From: Billy

Steve wrote:
> Excerpts from
> http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/02/24/grape_expectations/?page=full
>
> Scientists at CalTech and Stanford recently published the results of a
> peculiar wine tasting. They provided people with cabernet sauvignons
> at various price points, with bottles ranging from $5 to $90. Although
> the tasters were told that all the wines were different, the
> scientists were in fact presenting the same wines at different prices.
> The subjects consistently reported that the more expensive wines
> tasted better, even when they were actually identical to cheaper
> wines. When subjects were told they were getting a more expensive
> wine, there was more activity in a part of the brain known to be
> involved in our experience of pleasure. People expect expensive wines
> to taste better, and then their brains literally make it so.
>
> After the researchers finished their brain imaging, they asked the
> subjects to taste the five different wines again, only this time the
> scientists didn't provide any price information. Although the subjects
> had just listed the $90 wine as the most pleasant, they now completely
> reversed their preferences. When the tasting was truly blind, when the
> subjects were no longer biased by their expectations, the cheapest
> wine got the highest ratings.
>
> The human brain isn't built for objectivity. The brain doesn't
> passively take in perceptions. Rather, brain regions involved in
> developing expectations can systematically alter the activity of areas
> involved in sensation. The cortex is "cooking the books," adjusting
> its own inputs depending on what it expects. People experience reality
> not as it is, but as they expect it to be.
>
> A similar mental process helps explain a wide variety of seemingly
> bizarre consumer behaviors. Baba Shiv, a neuroeconomist at Stanford,
> supplied people with an "energy" drink containing a potent brew of
> sugar and caffeine. Some participants paid full price for the drinks,
> while others were offered a discount.
>
> The participants were then asked to solve a series of word puzzles.
> The people who paid discounted prices consistently solved fewer
> puzzles than the people who paid full price for the drinks, even
> though the drinks were identical.
>
> Since we expect cheaper goods to be less effective, they generally are
> less effective, even if they are identical to more expensive products.
> This is why brand-name aspirin works better than generic aspirin and
> why Coke tastes better than cheaper colas, even if most consumers
> can't tell the difference in blind taste tests.
>
> We have these general beliefs about the world - for example, that
> cheaper products are of lower quality - and they translate into
> specific expectations about specific products.
>
> One of the implications is that it's possible to make a product more
> "effective" by increasing its price. A good marketing campaign can
> have a similar effect, as it instills consumers with lofty
> expectations about the quality of the product.
>
> Expectations can even play havoc with experts. A few years ago,
> Frederic Brochet, a cognitive psychologist at the University of
> Bordeaux, conducted a rather mischievous experiment. He invited 54
> experienced wine tasters to give their impressions of a red wine and a
> white wine. Not surprisingly, the experts described the wines with the
> standard set of adjectives: the red wine was "jammy" and full of
> "crushed red fruit." The white wine, meanwhile, tasted of lemon,
> peaches, and honey.
>
> The next day, Brochet invited the wine experts back for another
> tasting. This time, however, he dyed the white wine with red food
> coloring, so that it looked as if they were tasting two red wines. The
> trick worked. The experts described the dyed white wine with the
> language typically used to describe red wines. The peaches and honey
> tasted like black currants.
>
> According to Brochet, the lesson of his experiment is that our
> experience is the end result of an elaborate interpretive process, in
> which the brain parses our sensations based upon our expectations. If
> we think a wine is red, or that a certain brand is better, then we
> will interpret our senses to preserve that belief. Such distortions
> are a fundamental feature of the brain.
>
>
>
>
They didn't want to look or be perceived as unsophisticated so they
pretended the higher priced wine was better.
Some may have thought it was better as if the price mad a difference but
I doubt it.
Anybody that thinks alcohol that smells like grapes but taste like
rotten potatoes is nuts anyway.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 1:47 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Steve <hgd@wsx.inv> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote

>> And thats why randomised double blind trials were invented.

> Yeah, but the point is that you're typically not
> able to perform a randomized double-blind trial.

Wrong with the absolute vast bulk of what was discussed in your post.

> And it helps to recognize that your brain may be absolutely convinced
> that one product is better than another simply because it costs more.

And thats why randomised double blind trials were invented.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 2:11 pm
From: jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas)

>Excerpts from
>http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/02/24/grape_expectations/?page=full
>
>Scientists at CalTech and Stanford recently published the results of a
>peculiar wine tasting. They provided people with cabernet sauvignons
>at various price points, with bottles ranging from $5 to $90. Although
>the tasters were told that all the wines were different, the
>scientists were in fact presenting the same wines at different prices.

Penn and Teller did that with water for one of their "Bullshit" shows.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 6:27 pm
From: Shawn Hirn

In article <Rl_xj.36$AL1.31@newsfe06.lga>, Billy <Bob@BillyJoe.Bob>
wrote:

> They didn't want to look or be perceived as unsophisticated so they
> pretended the higher priced wine was better.
> Some may have thought it was better as if the price mad a difference but
> I doubt it.
> Anybody that thinks alcohol that smells like grapes but taste like
> rotten potatoes is nuts anyway.

A few years ago, I was really into wine and I attended many wine
tastings and attended a few courses on wines, such Wines of Italy, Wines
of Nappa Valley, etc. I tend to go for the lower priced wines, and
fairly young vintages. Several wine experts told me that Europeans tend
to favor older and more expensive wines and Americans tend to favor
younger and cheaper wines. For example, I think the $3 bottles of
Charles Shaw wines from Trader Joes are fine, but a friend who's from
Vienna thinks they taste like grape juice.

I do think many people have the mistaken view that more expensive things
equate to better things, not just with wine. When I was a freshman in
college, I worked in a takeout seafood place. We sold a lot of fresh and
cooked seafood. One day, my boss, who owned the business decided to try
an experiment. We made up two trays of fresh flounder filets and put
them in the display case. Both trays consisted of flounder from exactly
the same shipment. My boss priced one tray for $1 more per pound than
the other tray. The more expensive flounder sold out much faster than
the cheaper flounder. Not once did anyone ask us what the difference
between the two trays of fish was, they all just assumed that the more
expensive fish was better. What other reason could they have had for
buying it without asking why two trays of identical fish were not priced
the same?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Major medical decision - & 1 hour to make it!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/54c841e9bff7de38?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 12:57 pm
From: "SpammersDie"

> Last year, the traditional PPO was an obvious good choice. We paid about
> $2,400 and got about $3,500 worth of medical bills paid.
>
> This year, that looks like a bad investment: we'd spend about $5,600 to
> get the same $3,500 in medical bills paid.
>
> The high deductible plan appears to be a mixed bag, though, and I'm not
> sure exactly how to calculate the results. It looks like we would spend
> about $4,500 to get the same $3,500 in medical bills paid.
>
> When you look at it as a return on investment:
>
> Last year trad PPO: 45% return on investment
>
> This year trad PPO: - 37% return on investment
>
> This year high deductible: -22% return on investment
>
>
> So we're looking at a negative return on our investment either way! It
> seems that we have only 2 choices - a bad choice, and an even worse choice
> for our family.
>
> Part of this issue, according to her employer, is because the employee
> pool where she works uses much more medical than most groups. As such,
> when they tried to shop around, they were completely turned down by many
> providers, who would not even provide a quote.
>
> I'm almost convinced that we should drop the insurance she gets through
> work and go out on the open market.

If those health issues were expected to continue generating a "positive ROI"
on your um, "investment", you'd be wise to stay off the open market. The
nice thing about group insurance is that you get the less risky members of
the group to subsidize you and your individual circumstances won't get
looked at too closely. On the open market, the insurer (who is the real
investor here) will evaluate the risk based on your individual circumstances
and rest assured, insurers are in business so *they* make the positive ROI,
not you.

(The flip side is, of course, that your employer may eventually decide that
you represent a negative ROI for them.)

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 1:48 pm
From: Al Bundy

OhioGuy wrote:
> My wife and I are facing a HUGE insurance decision to make for our family,
> and we only have 2 hours to make it.
>
> Long story short, the union where she works voted to approve a new
> insurance plan for the next year. They had provided us with insurance info
> that was "tentative" and still being negotiated. As such, the numbers were
> not finalized, and I told my wife that until we got the final numbers for
> the different plans being offered, we couldn't do a real comparison.
>
> Well, yesterday the employees voted to approve the plan, and today they
> told my wife she had to fill out and submit all the paperwork forms by 4 PM
> TODAY - yes - TODAY - if we wanted to remain on the old traditional PPO
> (Blue Cross/Blue Shield) insurance.
>
> The board where she works has pretty much decided that everybody should
> automatically be switched over to a new Core PPO/HRA plan, unless they opt
> out.
>
> The main difference: employee share for traditional PPO plan more than
> doubles - increases from $206 a month (family coverage) to $471 a month.
>
> My wife has a number of health issues, and I think we spend just over
> $3K - maybe $3,500 a year, when I look at the amount the insurance actually
> paid the doctors and such.
>
> The traditional PPO plan covers everything except a $10 to $20 copay we
> paid for meds, and $20 copay we paid for Dr. visits.
>
> New high deductible plan they want to "sweep" everybody into covers the
> first $1,000 annually, but leaves us to pay all medical costs from $1,000 to
> $3,000 - in other words $2k out of pocket if we spend $3,000 annually. Then
> it will cover everything over that.
>
> Considering our average annual health costs, this means that if we have
> about $3,500 in spending next year, here is what we would spend under the
> two plans:

My guess is that if you select or get sweeped into the new plan, you
(wife) will somehow find a way not to see the doctor quite as much.
When it's your nickel, I can almost guaranteeeee you will tighten up
your game.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 3:36 pm
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"Al Bundy" <MSfortune@mcpmail.com> wrote in message
news:beb6f599-1bf8-470f-a439-33c4dc5696cb@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>snip
> My guess is that if you select or get sweeped into the new plan, you
> (wife) will somehow find a way not to see the doctor quite as much.
> When it's your nickel, I can almost guaranteeeee you will tighten up
> your game.

which may or may not be a good thing, depending upon her existing problem.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 6:05 pm
From: Shawn Hirn

In article <fq9dv4$n5h$1@aioe.org>, "OhioGuy" <none@none.net> wrote:

>
> I particularly don't like how the new plan could stick us with an
> unplanned $2K in medical expenses, while this was never a possibility under
> the old plan.
>
> While under the new plan the library still "appears" to be paying 80%, the
> fact that they offload $2k in costs to us really means they aren't. I'm not
> sure what it would bring the percentage down to, but it's probably more in
> line with the 63% they are paying with the traditional plan.
>
> I'm so confused at this point, I really don't know which way we should go,
> and we need to make a decision in the next hour or so. Help!

Considering that your wife has a pre-existing medical condition, you
ought to jump at one of her employer's plans. If you go out to buy a
private policy, you'll be reamed six ways to Sunday, and may not even
find coverage at all due to your wife's medical problem.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Pre-owned ivory wedding dress (sz 4) and veil for sale on ebay
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/fe47c7ab29a18224?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 1:31 pm
From: Al Bundy

oligo...@gmail.com wrote:
> Looking for ways to save money on your wedding? I have a beautiful
> ivory duchess silk satin wedding dress and fingertip length veil up
> for auction.
> Silk-Satin-Strapless-Dress-and-
> Veil
> The reserve price is very low ($1500 less than I spent on the dress,
> veil, alterations, and cleaning) because I want to make sure that this
> dress doesn't sit in a closet forever! The auction ends on 3/3.

Sounds quite overpriced for used clothes.
And besides, using it is not the first step in frugality.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 2:16 pm
From: clams_casino

oligoden@gmail.com wrote:

>Looking for ways to save money on your wedding?
>

You do realize eBay may cancel your account if they receive a few
complaints of your spamming newsgroups which is against eBay rules.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Times: Penniless pilgrim's walk to India falls foul of the French
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/59466fa9ac46075f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 1:34 pm
From: Al Bundy

Papadillos wrote:
> From Times Online
> February 29, 2008
> Penniless pilgrim's walk to India falls foul of the French
>
>
> Mark Boyle was a man with a dream. He was so convinced that a world without
> the evils of money is possible that he set out to walk from Britain to India
> without spending a penny in order to prove it.
>
And what a dope he is! He was not going to spend any of HIS money.
Everybody can't live off of handouts. A few must produce something
that society values.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 3:22 pm
From: GI.Jane.AR@gmail.com

On Feb 29, 4:34 pm, Al Bundy <MSfort...@mcpmail.com> wrote:
> Papadillos wrote:
> > From Times Online
> > February 29, 2008
> > Penniless pilgrim's walk to India falls foul of the French
>
> > Mark Boyle was a man with a dream. He was so convinced that a world without
> > the evils of money is possible that he set out to walk from Britain to India
> > without spending a penny in order to prove it.
>
> And what a dope he is! He was not going to spend any of HIS money.
> Everybody can't live off of handouts. A few must produce something
> that society values.

Well said, Al. My first thought was how the heck did he get across
the channel without paying passage??

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 7:03 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

GI.Jane.AR@gmail.com wrote:
> On Feb 29, 4:34 pm, Al Bundy <MSfort...@mcpmail.com> wrote:
>> Papadillos wrote:
>>> From Times Online
>>> February 29, 2008
>>> Penniless pilgrim's walk to India falls foul of the French
>>
>>> Mark Boyle was a man with a dream. He was so convinced that a world
>>> without the evils of money is possible that he set out to walk from
>>> Britain to India without spending a penny in order to prove it.
>>
>> And what a dope he is! He was not going to spend any of HIS money.
>> Everybody can't live off of handouts. A few must produce something
>> that society values.
>
> Well said, Al. My first thought was how the heck did he get across
> the channel without paying passage??

It is possible to swim across that.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: china wholesale cheap hogan nike air max 90 95 ltd shoes UGG boots
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1a38309a01643292?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 1:58 pm
From: Al Bundy

bizsneake...@yahoo.com.cn wrote:
>

Big bust on the Chinese "fake" Nike shoes here the other day. People
were paying $50 for phony shoes. At least they were lucky enough to
get some kind of shoe. Many times the shoes don't ever get shipped or
get caught at the border. Payment is generally in advance of shipping.
Lots of luck in finding the garage these things came out of. OH, and
don't wear white socks as the color might come off on them and may be
toxic as well.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Great Money Saving Site I Had To Share
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/031cbc067bec3c02?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 3:38 pm
From: Sven

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== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 3:59 pm
From: clams_casino

Sven wrote:

>I came across this site
>

You found your own site? And you're bragging about it?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: FREE Pledge® Multi Surface Wipes sample... more!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/918f3ef3115650d3?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 4:17 pm
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Supply Nike jordan, AF1 shoes and Bape shoes at low price
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ded5d7e5d58d77cb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Incandescent IR power
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f2dc4189cfeb0563?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 5:46 pm
From: redbelly

On Jan 25, 7:01 am, nicksans...@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> I want to put a picture of a pregnant horse on a website using a Linksys
> WVC200 webcam. The data sheet says it can work at 2 lux and it has an IR
> filter (what does that do?) The vet says it's not a good idea to keep
> the 10'x20' stall lit and the horse awake all night.
>
> Amazon sells $50 low-power IR LED arrays, with mixed reviews.
> Would a 100 W incandescent bulb run at low voltage work as well?
> With some sort of IR filter (exposed film?) over the bulb?
>
> So far, Linksys hasn't been helpful. When I asked on the phone about
> spectral sensitivity, the Indian-accented person asked me what OS
> I was using :-)
>
> Nick

Here is how to remove the IR-blocking filter in one type of camera.
If you're mechanically inclined, you may be able to adapt this method
to your own camera model.

http://www.abe.msstate.edu/~jwooten/camera/lense.html

Note that, in addition to removing the filter, a piece of clear glass
is substituted for it. Otherwise the camera could no longer focus the
image onto the sensor array.

Regards,

Mark

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Grocery Costs
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/dc691accd9fbdd4c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 6:09 pm
From: Shawn Hirn

In article <w3Kxj.14352$097.3402@newsfe21.lga>,
clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:

> For the past five years, we've averaged (for two) a fairly constant $80
> / week grocery bill. So far this year, we've been averaging about $120
> / wk with no significant change in habits that I can tell.
>
> There's been much talk in the news about grocery costs climbing much
> faster than inflation, but 50% seems a bit outrageous. Hopefully it'll
> average down some in March.
>
> Milk has been hit especially hard. Two years ago, we were paying just
> under $2/gallon. Last week, it was up to $3.15 at the same Cumberland
> Farms store.
>
> We are also starting to see the same inflation in our local breakfast
> places. Two years ago, it was easy to find two eegs / potatoes & toast
> under $2. It's now hard to find many under $3.

Prices go up. That's for sure. Farmers are being reamed due to increased
cost of energy, plus many are dealing with unusually bad growing
conditions, and the cost to transport farmed goods to market is going up
very quickly due to higher gas prices.

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Frugal Living

Blog Archive

Friday, February 29, 2008

24 new messages in 11 topics - digest

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