Frugal Living: 22 new messages in 18 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/888b961bb237d482?hl=en
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: 401K - administrator holds contributions for 7 days before investing
them
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/888b961bb237d482?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 22 2008 8:25 am
From: Just A User

goaway@fractious.net wrote:
> Snowbound <loosebowels@ixnay.invalid> writes:
>
>> That was the OP's question, not mine.
>
> My mistake. I forgot who the OP was.
>
>> My question followed up the statement:
>>
>> "I see a three week lag in my contributions to my 401k run by Wachovia.
>> I don't see a big deal about it."
>>
>> I asked: "What if you were to find out that during those three weeks,
>> your money had tripled in value by its use during the time it was out
>> of your control, but that even so, *you* were getting only what you had
>> put in? Would you care then?"
>
> You may care, but life is rough. That's the way the
> system works. There are sometimes lags in financial
> transactions and unless you are engaging in a transaction
> completely within a single entity (ie. buying stocks
> in an already established brokerage account), sometimes
> those lags suck.
>
> If you think three weeks missing out on a single paycheck's
> contribution to your 401k sucks, you've got a whole new
> world of suckiness coming when you try to roll your 401k
> balance out to an IRA. Your 401k balance will all be
> turned to cash, and it'll stay cash until a check is
> sent either to you or to your IRA trustee. You may miss
> out on several weeks of market returns on your entire
> 401k balance, not just a single paycheck.
>
> I suppose you could plan for this buy purchasing some
> at-the-money options (within some other outside account)
> on the same day as your 401k account is turned to cash
> and you may be able to control that timing buy turning
> it to cash yourself before you submit the papers for the
> rollover. (most 401ks have a cash-equivalent fund
> available).
>
>> My intent was to show that a lag period of any length, regardless of how
>> "legal", is damaging to the saver's financial health and is _properly_
>> viewed as utterly unacceptable absent some sort of very good incentive--
>> say, dollar-for-dollar employer matching contributions, fully vested.
>
> It's properly viewed as part of the process. Sometimes it
> happens. And if your portfolio is diversified (as most
> retirement portfolios, at least, seriously ought to be),
> you're not going to miss out on a 3x run-up.
>
>> Apart from system or network failures or similar mitigating
>> circumstances, there is really no good reason not to electronically
>> debit and/or credit accounts instantly or at worst, within 3 days of the
>> actual transaction, and no individual saver should allow for such
>> shenanigans with *their* money without documented and reasonable
>> explanation.
>
> It's certainly possible - usually with larger business and
> folks using automated payroll processors (ie. ADP or Paychex).
> But it's not required nor necessarily cost-efficient, especially
> for smaller employers. They have several weeks which seems
> like a reasonably fair balance. They used to have longer
> than that and some did abuse it. 3 weeks is still pretty
> long - and certainly long enough to be worth asking one's
> payroll department about. But it's absolutely not a big deal
> and "your money could have tripled" won't help anyone get
> that straightened out. At best, your payroll folks will
> just assume you've been reading get-rich-quick scams on
> the internet. At worst, they'll assume you're a nut and
> dig in their heels and not actually try to improve their
> system. Either way, the employee has no recourse since
> it's very well within legal guidelines.
>
>

Snowbound is probably a person who spends many waking hours looking for
the next super trade (assuming that he has an established account
somewhere). Now that is fine if he is really good at it and it's his or
her full-time job. Most people don't have the knowledge to engage in
that kind of activity. I know people like that, always spending too much
time looking to strike it rich in the markets. Then years later they
realized that they 'wasted' all that time and have nothing to show for it.

Personally I can think of better things I would rather be doing. My 401
is up about 10% for the year. And my brokerage account with one of the
online discount brokers is up about 13% for the year. That is fine with me.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 22 2008 7:27 pm
From: Snowbound

In article <yobhceyu703.fsf@panix2.panix.com>, goaway@fractious.net
wrote:

> You may care, but life is rough. That's the way the system works.
> There are sometimes lags in financial transactions and unless you are
> engaging in a transaction completely within a single entity (ie.
> buying stocks in an already established brokerage account), sometimes
> those lags suck.

I really don't care whether they "suck" or not. I'm saying they are
unacceptable and wage earners are not obliged to accept them. Absent
any incentives, workers would be much better off not contributing to an
employer's 401k and losing their money for three weeks. They could
then take the contribution out of their own paycheck, open their own
retirement investment fund and triple their money if they choose or
invest in safe low-return funds. Losing the interest for three weeks is
just inane and stupid. Having said that, if people want to be stupid
and give their money away for whatever period of time, without
remuneration or profit, so be it. My point stands on its own.

> If you think three weeks missing out on a single paycheck's
> contribution to your 401k sucks, you've got a whole new world of
> suckiness coming when you try to roll your 401k balance out to an
> IRA. Your 401k balance will all be turned to cash, and it'll stay
> cash until a check is sent either to you or to your IRA trustee. You
> may miss out on several weeks of market returns on your entire 401k
> balance, not just a single paycheck.

BTDT. I deliberately chose institutions that took less than a single
week to conduct the transactions (401k -> Fidelity IRA). Also, the
conversion to cash is not such a bad thing, since your 401k
administrator can electronically transfer the funds to your bank
account (if not to your choice of IRA accounts), where you can withdraw
it in a cashiers check and deposit it immediately into your new IRA
without delay. Minimal planning, no violations, no fees, no penalties,
no missing money. Voila!

> I suppose you could plan for this buy purchasing some at-the-money
> options (within some other outside account) on the same day as your
> 401k account is turned to cash and you may be able to control that
> timing buy turning it to cash yourself before you submit the papers
> for the rollover. (most 401ks have a cash-equivalent fund
> available).

I suppose planning for the transference of large sums of money is not
such a bad idea. As I said, my own transfer went very smoothly, the
money was never out of my control for more than three days and the
funds were credited instantly. Anything less these days is
unacceptable. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

> > My intent was to show that a lag period of any length, regardless
> > of how "legal", is damaging to the saver's financial health and is
> > _properly_ viewed as utterly unacceptable absent some sort of very
> > good incentive-- say, dollar-for-dollar employer matching
> > contributions, fully vested.
>
> It's properly viewed as part of the process.

Moo or baaaa. It once was viewed that way. Now that view is completely
prehistoric. Extinct, even. Or at the very least, bovine.

> Sometimes it happens.

The one thing you have posted thus far that makes sense in a world of
electronic fund transfers. *If* it happens-- and I acknowledge that it
does, rarely-- The circumstances are always documented for the perusal
and approval of the customer... by any institution worthy of holding
other peoples' money, anyway.

> And if your portfolio is diversified (as most retirement portfolios,
> at least, seriously ought to be), you're not going to miss out on a
> 3x run-up.

Right, because you've got that 12% ROI to look forward to. That's fine.
Investments like that should be part of any retirement fund. There
should also always be the availability and ability to take advantage of
2x, 3x, 4x and more "run-ups". Why? Because they do occur-- much more
frequently, now that years of "conservative" fiscal policies have so
undermined market stability. Gordon Gecko said, "Greed is good. Greed
works." To which I reply, "Panic and fear are MUCH better. Disaster and
market implosions spread the profit much more evenly." And because with
a modicum of foresight and just a little interest in the fundamentals,
*anyone* can take advantage of the "run-ups". This can make your 12%
safe and steady look more like a crusty urinal where you piss away your
retirement life blood.

> > Apart from system or network failures or similar mitigating
> > circumstances, there is really no good reason not to electronically
> > debit and/or credit accounts instantly or at worst, within 3 days
> > of the actual transaction, and no individual saver should allow for
> > such shenanigans with *their* money without documented and
> > reasonable explanation.
>
> It's certainly possible - usually with larger business and folks
> using automated payroll processors (ie. ADP or Paychex). But it's not
> required nor necessarily cost-efficient, especially for smaller
> employers.

How small? Mom and pop businesses? How many of them offer their 2 or 3
employees 401k's? There are relatively inexpensive automated systems
for virtually every business above a certain cash flow level. The
cost-- in terms of equipment and software and even learning curve-- is
negligible for any business likely to offer such plans.

> They have several weeks which seems like a reasonably fair balance.

If it's okay with their employees, it's okay with me. Given that,
what's the problem with documenting the lag time? What is done with the
money? Where is the money kept? In a mattress? No? In an account, then?
What does it earn there? Who is the fiduciary? Who keeps those
earnings? Why aren't they returned to the owner of the money? Is that
accounting too expensive as well? Too time consuming? Or is it too
revealing?

> They used to have longer than that and some did abuse it.

You use the word, "abuse". Not once have I implied abuse. I have done
nothing but ask questions, none of which were ever answered without a
long bullshit session attached, hiding behind what is "legal". Your own
answers make it seem highly likely that what you call abuse isn't just
a thing of the past.

> 3 weeks is still pretty long - and certainly long enough to be worth
> asking one's payroll department about.

3 weeks is unacceptable, seriously. The greater the amount of money,
the less acceptable it is. It points to some serious shortcomings,
either in the business itself or in its commitment to the employee's
benefit. Questioning the payroll department (or person, let's not wax
all grandiose for incompetence) is a good start, but only if it
produces satisfactory answers, backed by documentation.

> But it's absolutely not a big deal and "your money could have
> tripled" won't help anyone get that straightened out.

What possible reason could the payroll "department" have to ask to hear
your reasons for wanting to know where your money is. Who cares *what*
they think of your interest? It's your money. You would have to be
foolish, if not nuts, not to care about where it is and what it is
doing. If "payroll" demands a reason, tell them it is your money and
you want to know.

> At best, your payroll folks will just assume you've been reading
> get-rich-quick scams on the internet.

So what? What justifies their curiosity in the reasons for your
concern? If anything, they should appreciate your interest. You are
simply looking out for your interests. Who cares *what* they think?
Your overweening worry about the payroll department's opinion of you
increases my concern that they are doing something very wrong, with or
without intent.

> At worst, they'll assume you're a nut and dig in their heels and not
> actually try to improve their system. Either way, the employee has
> no recourse since it's very well within legal guidelines.

If payroll decides not to improve its performance because they are
unreasonably insulted, it's a good bet they are doing something outside
the interest of the employee. It would be a public service then, for
the interested employee to inform his or her peers and maybe the proper
authorities. Of course employees have recourse. They can halt their
automatic deduction-- instantly cutting off the free money loan to
those who do not have their best interests at heart-- and start their
very own IRA, probably offering more options and definitely providing
quicker accounting.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 22 2008 7:32 pm
From: Snowbound

In article <WuWdnR6ZioKZuHjanZ2dnUVZ_h2pnZ2d@giganews.com>,
Just A User <ken@up-yours-spammer.net> wrote:

> Snowbound is probably a person who spends many waking hours looking for
> the next super trade (assuming that he has an established account
> somewhere). Now that is fine if he is really good at it and it's his or
> her full-time job. Most people don't have the knowledge to engage in
> that kind of activity. I know people like that, always spending too much
> time looking to strike it rich in the markets. Then years later they
> realized that they 'wasted' all that time and have nothing to show for it.

Wow. What an insane assumption. Of course, that's how you operate,
according to your own posts. You just assume and assume, and let
everyone else be responsible for your well-being. Well, Scarlett, I sure
wish you success at always relying on the kindness of strangers. Failing
that, I sure hope you enjoy your spot under the bridge.

> Personally I can think of better things I would rather be doing. My 401
> is up about 10% for the year. And my brokerage account with one of the
> online discount brokers is up about 13% for the year. That is fine with me.

Good for you. Keep doing whatever it is that makes you happiest right
now.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 22 2008 7:40 pm
From: Snowbound

In article <Hd2dnUXHCc2hcXnanZ2dnUVZ_smnnZ2d@giganews.com>,
Just A User <ken@up-yours-spammer.net> wrote:

>
> Sure it's okay to look for a stock that is going to triple your money,
> but the chances of finding one are extremely slim. To answer your
> original question: would I care if my money tripled in value while it
> was not in my control and I was only credited with the original amount.
> Not really. I do okay with my personally controlled brokerage account.

Great. Here's to your success at your plan. Notice I had no impulse to
insult you or make unjustified assumptions about you? You say it
wouldn't bother you if you discovered that your money tripled in value
during the three weeks it was out of your control and you made zero from
that value increase. I believe you. I don't know how long that easygoing
attitude would last as the amounts build up, but I believe you mean what
you say. I may have my own opinions about your assessment, but unlike
some contributing to this thread, I will keep them to myself.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: comments from canandians, pls: canadian health care
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/190b5f62e6acf0e1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 22 2008 10:19 am
From: krw

In article <slrnfu93ou.6h9.don@manx.misty.com>, don@manx.misty.com
says...
> In article <MPG.224e0b632a1be4759899bf@news.individual.net>, krw wrote:
>
> >http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?index=5324&type=0&sequence=0#table1A
> >
> >The effective federal income tax rate (2001) for the top 1% was 33%.
>
> On "ordinary income" such as wages, salaries and tips. The top rate for
> long term capital gains and qualified dividends is 15%.

That is *EFFECTIVE TAX RATE*, not the incremental _income_ tax rate.

> >The effective income tax rate for the bottom 20% is was -5.4%.

I suppose -5.4% was on "capital gains" too.

--
Keith

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TOPIC: How much is your electric bill?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/474b552ab22ee28c?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 22 2008 11:54 am
From: lafecain1@gmail.com

I have just rented a cocoon and 20 bags to do my 2nd floor attic. My
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Why pay more for cigarettes?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/936065908cd102ed?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 22 2008 1:16 pm
From: clams_casino

travel_driver2002@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

>Why pay more for cigarettes?
>
>

Best way to pay high prices for cigarettes is to buy on line. By law,
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state. Expect a tax bill for the uncollected taxes.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 22 2008 5:31 pm
From: George Grapman

clams_casino wrote:
> travel_driver2002@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
>> Why pay more for cigarettes?
>>
>>
>
>
> Best way to pay high prices for cigarettes is to buy on line. By law,
> they must notify your state government of shipping them into your
> state. Expect a tax bill for the uncollected taxes.

If they bill your card and send nothing you should not have to pay
taxes. The only contact info is a yahoo address. For some reason a
polite request for an address and phone number was ignored.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Paid survey site reviews
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/003a4518f3ed811c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 22 2008 7:42 pm
From: Drew

Has anyone come across any good reviews of paid survey sites? I found
on at http://stephenroy.joeuser.com/article/305098/Reviews_of_Paid_Survey_Sites_and_Programs
that was good, but only reviewed a limited number of sites. Any other
suggestions?

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 22 2008 8:57 pm
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TOPIC: Could There Be Any More Disgusting Candidates for President?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/dbfb8dc71ebb74ea?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 22 2008 9:31 pm
From: "Ronald 'More-More' Moshki"

On Mar 21, 3:06 pm, "Guv Bob" <brotherd...@bigfootYEEEEEEEOW.com>
wrote:
> Moron buffoon... please stop cross posting. You're making a fool of yourself.
>
> <maxden...@lycos.com> wrote in messagenews:ce8f619e-7004-4318-bc6a-8881f1f8d712@n75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
> On Mar 21, 11:05 am, margot <mar...@zog.usa> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Could There Be Any More Disgusting Candidates For President Than These
> > Three?
>
> > At a Jewish Leadership Meeting Sponsored by The United Jewish
> > Communities: Clinton, Obama and McCain Campaigns fight over which one
> > will be more disloyal to America
>
> > On March 18, in Washington, D.C. three official representatives of the
> > Obama, Clinton and McCain campaigns came before Jewish leaders and
> > promised their candidate's complete subservience to Israel. The three
> > representatives that spoke were Lawrence Eagleburger for McCain, Ann
> > Lewis for Clinton, and Daniel Kurtzer, former U.S. Ambassador to
> > Israel, for Obama.
>
> > The Washington Post (Audacity of Chutzpah, Dana Milbank, March 18,
> > 2008) quotes Ann Lewis as saying:
>
> > "The role of the President of the United States is to support the
> > decisions that are made by the people of Israel."
>
> > Neither McCain's nor Obama's official representatives dared to object
> > to this absurdly un-American statement, and they simply continued to
> > argue to maintain that their own candidate would be the most
> > subservient to Israel's extreme agendas.
>
> > In searching Google today, I found also that not a single pundit in
> > mainstream media objected to the traitorous statement of Ann Lewis and
> > the obsequious disloyal behavior of the other official representatives
> > of the three leading candidates for President of the United States.
>
> > I was under the delusion that according to the Oath of Office the role
> > of the President of the United States is to "faithfully execute the
> > Office of President of the United States, and will to the best his
> > ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United
> > States." How silly of me to think that the welfare of the United
> > States has anything important to do with the role of the President,
> > now I am corrected and thankfully realize that his role is simply to
> > do the will of Israel.
>
> > In my ignorance I did not realize that the Constitution has been
> > amended to the following:
>
> > "The role of the President of the United States is to support the
> > decisions that are made by the people of Israel."
>
> > Thanks, Ann, and I must also thank the establishment media for setting
> > me and millions of other Americans straight on how anti-Semitic any
> > President would be who would actually represent the best interests of
> > the American people.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

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== 1 of 1 ==
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== 1 of 1 ==
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== 1 of 1 ==
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