Frugal Living: 24 new messages in 15 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Nephew running with the money
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/edfc5e913ef45ab5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 5:41 pm
From: "Anthony R. Gold"

On Sun, 9 Mar 2008 11:53:16 +1100, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Lou <lpogodajr292185@comcast.net> wrote:
>> "TJ" <TJ@no.not> wrote in message
>> news:8L-dnRh6Q-NIVU_anZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>> Logan Shaw wrote:
>>>
>>>> johnclayton_____ wrote:
>>>>> A friend who is normally resident in the U.K., on the recent death
>>>>> of his mother in Scotland arranged with his two sisters and the
>>>>> family solicitor (in Scotland) to pay £100,000 to his nephew to
>>>>> 'reduce' the inheritence tax they would have to pay because of the
>>>>> value of the mother's house. It was made clear to the Nephew by the
>>>>> mother's three children that
>>>>> this money was *not permanently* given to him, and that he was
>>>>> expected to pay it back at a later date.
>>>>>
>>>>> This understanding that he would pay it back, was also made clear
>>>>> to the solicitor in Scotland who 'arranged' the transaction. The
>>>>> solicitor also knew that this payment to the nephew was to *evade*
>>>>> (avoid) paying the full inheritance tax.
>>>>>
>>>>> Surprise, surprise... the Nephew does not want to pay the money
>>>>> back. He is now turning nasty and unco-operative. What advice
>>>>> might it possible to give in this situation to try to recover some
>>>>> of this *stolen*
>>>>> money?
>>>>
>>>> To me, the most interesting question to ask about this situation is
>>>> where the nephew got the idea that it was OK to refuse to give
>>>> someone money that you currently possess but rightfully owe to them.
>>>
>>> Don't know how it works in the UK, but if the same thing happened in
>>> the US I doubt he would "rightfully" owe them a dime. (Morally
>>> would be a different issue) Most likely he got the idea from the
>>> family. They knowingly involved him in a scheme to fuck the
>>> government out of inheritance tax, so he took a page out of their
>>> book, and in the end, decided to fuck the relatives as well as the
>>> government. IANAL, but I think this would come under the "clean
>>> hands" rule of law which dictates that you can't sue anybody to
>>> recover ill-gotten gains.
>>>
>>> They certainly can't go after the nephew for the money without
>>> exposing their own guilt in trying to avoid taxes.
>>
>> I'm having a little trouble understanding what's going on here. In
>> the US, it's perfectly OK, even smart, to arrange your affairs in
>> such a way as to **avoid** taxes. It's not legal to **evade** taxes
>> - engage in illegal activities to escape paying taxes. Interchanging
>> the terms makes understanding the description of the situation
>> difficult.
>
>> I'm at a loss to see how paying any amount of money to anyone
>> after someone's death would reduce the value the estate had at
>> the time of death, and I'd think it was the value at the time of
>> death that would be subject to inheritance tax.
>
> The obvious way to do that is to get the value of the estate
> down to a level at which no inheritance tax is payable.
>
>> If the object of the exercise was to evade taxes, it sounds like the nephew is
>> refusing (conveniently but perhaps properly) to engage in some illegal activity.
>
> Nope, he already did that when he accepted the money in the first place.

He may be an accessory or a conspirator, but the principal offender will be
whoever files for IHT clearance by means of a false statement which omits
the value to the estate of the repayment owed and due from the nephew.

Tony

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 5:55 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Charles Ellson <charles@ellson.demon.co.uk> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Charles Ellson <charles@ellson.demon.co.uk> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> TJ <TJ@no.not> wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>>> TJ <TJ@no.not> wrote
>>>>>>> Logan Shaw wrote
>>>>>>>> johnclayton_____ wrote

>>>>>>>>> A friend who is normally resident in the U.K., on the recent
>>>>>>>>> death of his mother in Scotland arranged with his two sisters
>>>>>>>>> and the family solicitor (in Scotland) to pay £100,000 to his
>>>>>>>>> nephew to 'reduce' the inheritence tax they would have to pay
>>>>>>>>> because of the value of the mother's house. It was made clear
>>>>>>>>> to the Nephew by the mother's three children that this money
>>>>>>>>> was *not permanently* given to him, and that he was
>>>>>>>>> expected to pay it back at a later date.

>>>>>>>>> This understanding that he would pay it back, was also
>>>>>>>>> made clear to the solicitor in Scotland who 'arranged' the
>>>>>>>>> transaction. The solicitor also knew that this payment to the
>>>>>>>>> nephew was to *evade* (avoid) paying the full inheritance tax.

>>>>>>>>> Surprise, surprise... the Nephew does not want to pay the
>>>>>>>>> money back. He is now turning nasty and unco-operative.
>>>>>>>>> What advice might it possible to give in this situation to
>>>>>>>>> try to recover some of this *stolen* money?

>>>>>>>> To me, the most interesting question to ask about this situation
>>>>>>>> is where the nephew got the idea that it was OK to refuse to give
>>>>>>>> someone money that you currently possess but rightfully owe to them.

>>>>>>> Don't know how it works in the UK, but if the same thing
>>>>>>> happened in the US I doubt he would "rightfully" owe them a
>>>>>>> dime. (Morally would be a different issue) Most likely he got
>>>>>>> the idea from the family. They knowingly involved him in a
>>>>>>> scheme to fuck the government out of inheritance tax, so he
>>>>>>> took a page out of their book, and in the end, decided to fuck
>>>>>>> the relatives as well as the government. IANAL, but I think
>>>>>>> this would come under the "clean hands" rule of law which
>>>>>>> dictates that you can't sue anybody to recover ill-gotten
>>>>>>> gains. They certainly can't go after the nephew for the money
>>>>>>> without exposing their own guilt in trying to avoid taxes.

>>>>>>> I would think if the relatives have cause of action against
>>>>>>> ANYONE, it would be the "Solicitor" who assisted in creating
>>>>>>> the scam. But again, IANAL (I am not a lawyer) and even
>>>>>>> THAT would cause them to expose themselves as crooks.

>>>>>>> Bottom line IMO,

>>>>>>> Nephew: + 100K
>>>>>>> Relatives: 0

>>>>>>> Either that, or EVERYBODY goes to jail. :-)

>>>>>> It isnt a jailable offense there.

>>>>> OK. Then EVERYBODY pays a fine? :-)

>>>> Nope, it would be very difficult to prove beyound reasonable doubt
>>>> that the nephew had knowingly taken part in any crime. So he'd
>>>> almost certainly get off scott free, and would get to keep the money.

>>> From the details given, it sounds very much like the nephew knows what he has done.

>> Irrelevant to whether he would ever be fined.

>>> Whether or not he knows it might be illegal is a different matter
>>> as ignorance of the law is in general not accepted as a defence.

>> Irrelevant to whether he is ever likely to be convincted, when
>> the standard of proof required is beyond reasonable doubt.

>> Its unlikely that they were stupid enough to put it in writing in a formal contract etc.

>>> The potential loser is the Crown and their agents, HMRC,
>>> are not well known for letting people get away with money;

>> They do however have to prove the crime in a court of law before they can fine anyone for
>> a breach of the law, and that requires proof beyone reasonable doubt for a criminal offence.

> They don't need to use the criminal prosecution route to get the money.

They do need to use the criminal prosecution to do what was being discussed, FINE that individual.

> A civil pursuit only requires them to tip the balance of probability in their favour.

And that wouldnt necessarily involve the nephew, just those who avoided inheritance tax.

>>> in this case they would probably just ensure that their
>>> lawyer is bigger than his in a civil action against him.

>> Thats not what would be required for a FINE as a result of a breach of the law.

> But it wouldn't stop any civil penalties.

Pity it was fines being discussed before you jumped into this subthread.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 5:57 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Anthony R. Gold <not-for-mail@ahjg.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Mar 2008 11:53:16 +1100, "Rod Speed"
> <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Lou <lpogodajr292185@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> "TJ" <TJ@no.not> wrote in message
>>> news:8L-dnRh6Q-NIVU_anZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>>> Logan Shaw wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> johnclayton_____ wrote:
>>>>>> A friend who is normally resident in the U.K., on the recent
>>>>>> death of his mother in Scotland arranged with his two sisters
>>>>>> and the family solicitor (in Scotland) to pay £100,000 to his
>>>>>> nephew to 'reduce' the inheritence tax they would have to pay
>>>>>> because of the value of the mother's house. It was made clear to
>>>>>> the Nephew by the mother's three children that
>>>>>> this money was *not permanently* given to him, and that he was
>>>>>> expected to pay it back at a later date.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This understanding that he would pay it back, was also made clear
>>>>>> to the solicitor in Scotland who 'arranged' the transaction. The
>>>>>> solicitor also knew that this payment to the nephew was to
>>>>>> *evade* (avoid) paying the full inheritance tax.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Surprise, surprise... the Nephew does not want to pay the money
>>>>>> back. He is now turning nasty and unco-operative. What advice
>>>>>> might it possible to give in this situation to try to recover
>>>>>> some of this *stolen*
>>>>>> money?
>>>>>
>>>>> To me, the most interesting question to ask about this situation
>>>>> is where the nephew got the idea that it was OK to refuse to give
>>>>> someone money that you currently possess but rightfully owe to
>>>>> them.
>>>>
>>>> Don't know how it works in the UK, but if the same thing happened
>>>> in the US I doubt he would "rightfully" owe them a dime. (Morally
>>>> would be a different issue) Most likely he got the idea from the
>>>> family. They knowingly involved him in a scheme to fuck the
>>>> government out of inheritance tax, so he took a page out of their
>>>> book, and in the end, decided to fuck the relatives as well as the
>>>> government. IANAL, but I think this would come under the "clean
>>>> hands" rule of law which dictates that you can't sue anybody to
>>>> recover ill-gotten gains.
>>>>
>>>> They certainly can't go after the nephew for the money without
>>>> exposing their own guilt in trying to avoid taxes.
>>>
>>> I'm having a little trouble understanding what's going on here. In
>>> the US, it's perfectly OK, even smart, to arrange your affairs in
>>> such a way as to **avoid** taxes. It's not legal to **evade** taxes
>>> - engage in illegal activities to escape paying taxes.
>>> Interchanging
>>> the terms makes understanding the description of the situation
>>> difficult.
>>
>>> I'm at a loss to see how paying any amount of money to anyone
>>> after someone's death would reduce the value the estate had at
>>> the time of death, and I'd think it was the value at the time of
>>> death that would be subject to inheritance tax.

>> The obvious way to do that is to get the value of the estate
>> down to a level at which no inheritance tax is payable.

>>> If the object of the exercise was to evade taxes, it sounds like
>>> the nephew is refusing (conveniently but perhaps properly) to
>>> engage in some illegal activity.

>> Nope, he already did that when he accepted the money in the first place.

> He may be an accessory or a conspirator,

And that would have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt in a criminal court.

> but the principal offender will be whoever files for IHT clearance
> by means of a false statement which omits the value to the estate
> of the repayment owed and due from the nephew.

And that clearly wont be the nephew.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 9:14 pm
From: catchme

Logan Shaw wrote:
> TJ wrote:
>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>> TJ <TJ@no.not> wrote:
>
>>>> At least not until AFTER the taxes were paid on it.
>
>>> Wrong again if the taxes werent due if he received it.
>
>> I would think the inheritance was subject to taxation the *minute* it
>> was received by the aunts and uncle. IOW, BEFORE they "gifted it" to
>> the nephew. But once again, IANAL/solicitor.
>
> I thought it was obvious in the first place what was going on
> here. My assumption since the beginning of this thread has been
> that there is some kind of threshold below which no inheritance
> tax is due. The relatives crossed this threshold, and their idea
> was for the mother to will the excess directly to the nephew, so
> that they *never* had their hands on the money.
>
> I just looked it up at
> http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/cto/customerguide/page15.htm
> and it says this:
>
> The Inheritance Tax nil rate band is the amount of
> the estate on which there is no Inheritance Tax to
> pay. If the estate, including any assets held in
> trust and gifts made within seven years of death,
> is less than the nil rate band, no Inheritance
> Tax will be due on it.
>
> However, that actually sounds like it applies to the entire
> estate (not the amount inherited by a single person), which
> thus makes it sound like such a plan to shuffle around the
> money wouldn't work. On the other hand, it looks like (and
> of course IANAL/solicitor either) you can give money tax-free
> before death, as long as it's 7 years before. But that seems
> a little far-fetched to apply in this situation.
>
> So I'm starting to agree with the people who've said such a
> scheme, if anything, wouldn't work anyway, making this (even)
> more likely to be a troll.
>
> But of course, it's sort of a fun troll. Everybody likes to
> see greedy, dishonest people hatch a scheme that later blows
> up in their face. In fact, it's almost got sort of an urban
> legendy morality tale aspect to it.
>
> - Logan

happens all the time- there are so many "legal" ways to avoid paying
taxes for those who earn the big bucks, that the middle class strike up
schemes similiar to, while yet not fully achieving, the legal
requirements to qualify as a shelter, loophole, or deduction.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 9:55 pm
From: "tim \(not at home\)"

"Lou" <lpogodajr292185@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:q4mdncXvxd78rE7anZ2dnUVZ_tqtnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> "TJ" <TJ@no.not> wrote in message
> news:8L-dnRh6Q-NIVU_anZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d@comcast.com...
>> Logan Shaw wrote:
>>
>> > johnclayton_____ wrote:
>> >> A friend who is normally resident in the U.K., on the recent death
>> >> of his mother in Scotland arranged with his two sisters and the
>> >> family solicitor (in Scotland) to pay £100,000 to his nephew to
>> >> 'reduce' the inheritence tax they would have to pay because of the
>> >> value of the mother's house. It was made clear to the Nephew by the
>> >> mother's three children that
>> >> this money was *not permanently* given to him, and that he was
>> >> expected to pay it back at a later date.
>> >>
>> >> This understanding that he would pay it back, was also made clear to
>> >> the solicitor in Scotland who 'arranged' the transaction. The
>> >> solicitor
>> >> also knew that this payment to the nephew was to *evade*
>> >> (avoid) paying the full inheritance tax.
>> >>
>> >> Surprise, surprise... the Nephew does not want to pay the money
>> >> back. He is now turning nasty and unco-operative. What advice
>> >> might it possible to give in this situation to try to recover some of
>> >> this *stolen*
>> >> money?
>> >
>> > To me, the most interesting question to ask about this situation is
>> > where the nephew got the idea that it was OK to refuse to give someone
>> > money that you currently possess but rightfully owe to them.
>>
>> Don't know how it works in the UK, but if the same thing happened in the
> US
>> I doubt he would "rightfully" owe them a dime. (Morally would be a
>> different issue) Most likely he got the idea from the family. They
>> knowingly involved him in a scheme to fuck the government out of
> inheritance
>> tax, so he took a page out of their book, and in the end, decided to fuck
>> the relatives as well as the government. IANAL, but I think this would
> come
>> under the "clean hands" rule of law which dictates that you can't sue
>> anybody to recover ill-gotten gains.
>>
>> They certainly can't go after the nephew for the money without exposing
>> their own guilt in trying to avoid taxes.
>
> I'm having a little trouble understanding what's going on here. In the
> US,
> it's perfectly OK, even smart, to arrange your affairs in such a way as to
> **avoid** taxes. It's not legal to **evade** taxes - engage in illegal
> activities to escape paying taxes. Interchanging the terms makes
> understanding the description of the situation difficult.
>
> I'm at a loss to see how paying any amount of money to anyone after
> someone's death would reduce the value the estate had at the time of
> death,
> and I'd think it was the value at the time of death that would be subject
> to
> inheritance tax.
>
> If the object of the exercise was to evade taxes, it sounds like the
> nephew
> is refusing (conveniently but perhaps properly) to engage in some illegal
> activity. It sounds like the uncle and aunts gave him a generous gift of
> £100,000 (are there gift taxes in the UK, and did the nephew have to pay
> them?) and there's no obligation to return a gift. If the object of the
> exercise was to evade taxes and it was arranged by the family solicitor,
> the
> solictor should at the very least be disbarred (or whatever the UK
> equivalent is).

What you are missing is that we don't believe the guy's story as posted and
are looking (well some of us are) for some way to make it sensible whilst
discussing some legal stuff in between.

You are right:

1) Loaning the money after death will be ineffective for IHT purposes and it
will require a fraudulent declaration for there to be any effect (and as I
posted earlier, a fraudulent declaration could have been made without the
nephew's involvement).
2) A solicitor is unlikely to get involved in such a declaration.

So either the facts are wrong, or we have a troll. But this doesn't mean
that there aren't some genuine legal/financial issues to discuss.
Unfortunately, some people are discussing them on the assumption that we
believe the original story.

tim

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Removing non-stick coating to salvage a pan?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/609894c6db4e02d3?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 7:28 pm
From: ONM

On Mar 4, 10:21 am, Doc <docsavag...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I've got this wok from WalMart that's coated with Xylan, which I
> gather is a first cousin of Teflon. Big mistake. It's non-stick
> properties aren't very good.
>
> I don't like the idea of simply throwing it out and dumping more money
> into a non-coated wok. I'm sure I could strip the coating off with one
> of these fibrous abrasive wheels that you bolt onto a hand drill -
> wearing a dust mask of course - but is the surface that's exposed
> going to be suitable for cooking? Wondering if there's some pre-
> treating that's done to the metal that might render it toxic if used
> as a cooking surface.
>
> Further, should it be possible to thoroughly remove all the coating
> abrasively like that? Obviously I don't want to leave behind small
> particles since I assume it's toxic.
>
> Thanks

Pitch it man recycle it and get a real wok....no sense in worrying if
you are eating toxic food all the time.

More advice: learn to cook - stop buying teflon or any non-stick
cookware. Get a gas stove and get some steel cookware....with huge
riveted handles, and airtight lids, EVERYTHING will look and taste
better.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Wal-Mart will see even less of me now
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ffc3121fc1e38222?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 7:34 pm
From: Too_Many_Tools

On Mar 6, 11:24 am, Seerialmom <seerial...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Not that I shop at Wal-Mart all that often, but one thing that did
> inspire me to venture in ,especially before work when I needed 1 or 2
> items early in the morning, was the "self-checkout". So this morning
> I go there to buy a case of 8 oz. Pepsi's; there's one check out open
> and none of the "self-checkouts" are "on". I commented to the cashier
> that "not that I want your job to go away...but I come here
> specifically because of the self-checkouts". Her answer was that they
> were going away due to too many losses from people not checking "all"
> the items and walking out the door. Now is that just stupid or what?
> "Why can't they do like Sam's Club or Costco", I asked her. She said
> the customers who shop there have cussed out the person who asks for a
> receipt and to check the bag. Of course the ones that would do that
> have something to hide, right? Additionally they could limit it to 10
> items or less and have those cameras over the register. I'd say it's
> a BS answer she gave...since thieves will steal anyway, checkout or
> not.

The reason why automated checkouts go away is that the store does not
do the volume of business needed to support them.

They cost more than the flesh and blood kind.

TMT

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 7:36 pm
From: Too_Many_Tools

On Mar 6, 12:36 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bet that will have the walmart suits pouring from their
> windows like lemmings as soon as they read your post.
>
>
>
> Seerialmom <seerial...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Not that I shop at Wal-Mart all that often, but one thing that did
> > inspire me to venture in ,especially before work when I needed 1 or 2
> > items early in the morning, was the "self-checkout". So this morning
> > I go there to buy a case of 8 oz. Pepsi's; there's one check out open
> > and none of the "self-checkouts" are "on". I commented to the cashier
> > that "not that I want your job to go away...but I come here
> > specifically because of the self-checkouts". Her answer was that they
> > were going away due to too many losses from people not checking "all"
> > the items and walking out the door. Now is that just stupid or what?
> > "Why can't they do like Sam's Club or Costco", I asked her. She said
> > the customers who shop there have cussed out the person who asks for a
> > receipt and to check the bag. Of course the ones that would do that
> > have something to hide, right? Additionally they could limit it to 10
> > items or less and have those cameras over the register. I'd say it's
> > a BS answer she gave...since thieves will steal anyway, checkout or not.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Actually Walmart is cutting back on employees because of reduced
sales.

TMT

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 11:32 pm
From: PaPaPeng

On Fri, 07 Mar 2008 06:30:10 -0800, George Grapman
<sfgeorge@paccbell.net> wrote:

> Radio Shack used to insist on a phone number. Once just to get out of
>the store I gave them 415-555-1212.
> Remember if you make a purchase from a company they can call you
>even if you are on the do not call list.

I just say I am from out of state. I am just buying an item and my
cash is good. Anything else is none of their business. To be fair I
also buy what I really need and very rarely if ever make returns.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: You can make money on the internet
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/731f5461192051c8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 7:57 pm
From: rutgerskevin

Check out my new website about my efforts to make money on the
internet. Let's make some money together.

http://www.freewebs.com/rutgerskevin/unemployedhelp.htm

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 9:33 pm
From: crystalcwd@hotmail.com

oh , thanks, it seems good.

atopsilver.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Hiring Computer Operators
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c00434df19f9e5cf?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 8:32 pm
From: kanima001@gmail.com

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: 4Front Investigations Inc. Nationwide 888-248-4004
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4ca833e3f8786047?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 8:37 pm
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: 4Front Investigations Inc. 888-248-4004
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e1ee5bfd08f74c73?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 8:38 pm
From: 4Front <4frontinvestigations@gmail.com>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Birthday Cards, Love Cards, Valentine Cards
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/45b95719c82c2675?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 9:10 pm
From: george

Web sites to provide Free Greeting cards, Birthday cards, Printable
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== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 9:32 pm
From: crystalcwd@hotmail.com

thanks, but is it really free?
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Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 9:34 pm
From: crystalcwd@hotmail.com

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 10:50 pm
From: rzt8lias

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== 1 of 1 ==
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