Frugal Living: 14 new messages in 6 topics

Wednesday, July 16, 2008

14 new messages in 6 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* maenner in damenkleidung kaufen www damenbekleidung bestellen
groessentabelle damenbekleidung bestellen mode damenbekleidung bestellen - 1
messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/550ed24d6d2a3021?hl=en
* Spacing Trips to the Grocery Store? - 9 messages, 7 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9e5316c7228e6cd4?hl=en
* Diesel Genset Parts - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/50f8ac96967c9a6d?hl=en
* You are not frugal if...... - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3c5261ec65743940?hl=en
* How much does AC cost you? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/cdcf4b45a8aaec43?hl=en
* Design variations for solar space heater - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ad2c689d5a582e5f?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: maenner in damenkleidung kaufen www damenbekleidung bestellen
groessentabelle damenbekleidung bestellen mode damenbekleidung bestellen
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/550ed24d6d2a3021?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 6:43 pm
From: clientcenters12@googlemail.com

maenner in damenkleidung kaufen www damenbekleidung bestellen
groessentabelle damenbekleidung bestellen mode damenbekleidung
bestellen

public damenbekleidung bestellen damen und herren bekleidung bestellen
mann in damenkleidung kaufen damenbekleidung bestellen online
bestellen damenbekleidung bestellen grosse groessen schumacher
damenbekleidung bestellen

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Spacing Trips to the Grocery Store?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9e5316c7228e6cd4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 6:46 pm
From: Larry Caldwell

In article <s2mp74t6g7ohlqom41ilfk7hr2nvb6ech8@4ax.com>,
lisajoe@privacy.net (lisajoe@privacy.net) says...

> I don't bake while camping..

You are missing a treat. Roll the dough into a bread stick, wind it
around the end of a stick, and roast it like a hot dog over hot coals.
You can mix spicy meats or cheese into the dough. Summer sausage and
sharp cheese mixed into the dough makes a great hot pastry. If you are
just making night camp, you can use baking powder dough, but knead it
enough to work up the gluten, so it doesn't fall apart.

--
For email, replace firstnamelastinitial
with my first name and last initial.

== 2 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 6:38 pm
From: Larry Caldwell

In article <9cap74hj4l9nsgihb96q7c7m4jt1nlgtpn@4ax.com>, me@privacy.net
(me@privacy.net) says...
> Neon John <no@never.com> wrote:
>
> >There's an uninterruptible power supply in the basement connected to about 800
> >amp-hours (24 volts) of batteries. It powers my cabin's "vital bus". Lights
> >(all CF), refrigeration, computer, fan on the wood stove and a few other
> >things. That'll last about 24 hours. After that, out come the generators. As
> >in, more than one for redundancy and diversity of fuel supplies. One is
> >diesel, the other is gasoline with an LP option.
>
> Neon John I'm always amazed at how well EQUIPPED you
> are!! You must have tons of stuff sitting around your
> house and don't mind that, yes?
>
> I'm of the nature that I try and avoid owning things if
> possible and wonder if that is wrong approach. I try
> and live lean and mean.... but it does bite me in the
> ass.... making me "depend" too much on supply lines and
> such.
>
> What is your philosophy on having/owning bunch of stuff
> like this? You don't mind it taking up space or having
> to move it around?

It's all a question of what suits you. At my house, we have wall hung
oil lamps and candle sconces, so the dogs can't knock over a flame. We
have a wood stove and gravity feed water. The highest tech emergency
gear I have is an LED clip-on reading light. I also have a really good
battery powered AM-FM-SW radio, with a Beat Frequency Oscillator so I
can understand SSB. We have a hard wired telephone in the office, and
subscribe to telephone company voice mail. Losing power doesn't make
any difference at all in the comfort of everyday living.

For backup, I have a FSC travel trailer with dual deep cycle batteries
on a float charger. I installed an automotive AM-FM-CD-MP3 player, so I
can go out there, listen to music and read a book.

I have a couple generators, so if the power company doesn't get the
power back in 2 or 3 days, I haul one out and fire it off, mostly for
showers and satellite broadband. The freezer is full, and will easily
hold for a week without power. It's an energy star chest type, with
several hundred pounds of food in there. I run the freezer whenever I
run a generator for something else.

It's a good idea for rural people to have the necessities of life for at
least 2 weeks. Warmth, food, water, medicine, cooking, light,
entertainment, and whatever else you think is a necessity. I favor a
few good books and a deck of cards. Most rural people can get by just
fine for a month or more by raiding the pantry. The thing I tend to get
caught short and have to stock up on is animal feed. I typically let the
feed just about run out before buying more.

--
For email, replace firstnamelastinitial
with my first name and last initial.

== 3 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 6:50 pm
From: Neon John

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:44:01 -0500, me@privacy.net wrote:

>Neon John I'm always amazed at how well EQUIPPED you
>are!! You must have tons of stuff sitting around your
>house and don't mind that, yes?
>
>I'm of the nature that I try and avoid owning things if
>possible and wonder if that is wrong approach. I try
>and live lean and mean.... but it does bite me in the
>ass.... making me "depend" too much on supply lines and
>such.
>
>What is your philosophy on having/owning bunch of stuff
>like this? You don't mind it taking up space or having
>to move it around?

You've hit on one of the biggest dilemmas in my life, one that periodically
causes me much stress. Stuff. How much to have and what to do with it.

I have all this stuff and am prepared for most any contingency but it's a drag
on the way I want to live at this point in my life. Yet, when I periodically
get rid of a big load of stuff, I immediately end up needing what I got rid of
and start collecting again.

I'd like to move farther up in the mountains and live off-grid and as
self-sufficient as my health would permit. Then I start thinking about all
the stuff I'd need to make that happen. Micro hydro plant, batteries,
inverters, generators, etc and I realize that I'd quickly be back about where
I am now.

About 3 or 4 times in my life, I've cleared out practically everything. The
mother of all yard sales, hamfest and flea market trips, even an absolute
auction once. Problem is, I'm an inveterate "doer". Not having stuff to do
things with also drives me nutz.

When I closed my restaurant and retired, I had a 6900 sq ft building full of
stuff. About 1500 sq ft of that space was dedicated to the restaurant but even
it was crowded. I had an auction and got rid of 2/3s of the stuff. What
remains has the basement and all rooms of my cabin packed to the point that I
can't do much with it. I'm about to buy a CONEX container (ocean-going cargo
container) or maybe an old semi trailer to sit on my side lot to use as a
storage shed.

I'm currently collecting materials to build my second electric car. 144 volts
worth of batteries in one corner. Motors and hardware in another. I can't
escape from it!

I don't have much money in this stuff because I'm a master scavenger and do a
lot of trading. Still, the space it occupies is a pain.

Some of this probably comes from my nuclear background where every conceivable
contingency is anticipated and measures taken to prevent problems. I couldn't
stand to know that I'd be vulnerable to a power outage, a storm, a national
strike of some sort, a food shortage or price run-up or anything else like
that. I'm not a survivalist expecting some kind of apocalypse, it's just the
way things work out.

Part of that, too, is that I live so far back in the woods now that my monthly
supply runs require that I store lots of things. It's been close to six weeks
since my last run and I can actually see about half-way down into my freezers!
Time to go shopping....

My biggest vulnerability right now is fire, and I'm taking steps to address
that. Steps include providing a separate power supply from the pole to my
well pump, a water storage tank, a separate generator for the pump, housed in
the pump house; a 1.5" fire hose outside my cabin and eventually, installing
sprinklers in my cabin.

We don't have the raging wildfires that burn whole forests like CA and other
western states do. But we do have ground fires and like everyone else, I'm
subject to starting an accidental fire in my cabin by doing something dumb.

I watched that recent Ebay auction with great envy, the one where the guy in
Australia sold his entire life, leaving with only the clothes on his back and
his pocket contents. He went off with over a half $mil in the bank to start a
new life. I'd LOVE to do that. Of course, I'd quickly identify personal
vulnerabilities in my new life and start collecting stuff all over again.

*sigh* Time to go to the basement and do something....

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources -Albert Einstein

== 4 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 6:59 pm
From: Larry Caldwell

In article <pan.2008.07.15.17.45.28.79780@epix.net>, nntpmail@epix.net
(Ann) says...

> It's what the box says it is - Non-fat dry milk - Total fat 0g.
> Fat-containing powdered milk couldn't be stored long term without a bunch
> of stabilizer to keep the fat from going rancid. (Iirc, dried
> fat-containing milk is used in commercial baking, etc.)

I sometimes use powdered buttermilk for baking.

--
For email, replace firstnamelastinitial
with my first name and last initial.

== 5 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 7:08 pm
From: "catalpa"

"Dave" <noway@nohow.not> wrote in message
news:g5ii83$lv5$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>> Where do you live that milk is only $1.99 a gallon?
>>
>> Here in PA state minimum price is $4.10 a gallon.
>>
>>
>
> NY
>
> Don't tell me PA sets state minimum price on MILK???? Most convenience
> stores sell cheap milk gallons, this isn't a NY thing, I've seen it all
> over the U.S. -Dave

Of course, we have the PA Milk Marketing Board to set minimum prices. You
can read all the nonsense at http://www.mmb.state.pa.us/mmb/site/default.asp

I visit Long Island, NY a few times a year and the milk prices there are
always higher than they are in PA. Last month it was $4.49 a gallon. I never
see cheap milk in NY.

In New Jersey there is a dairy in Trenton that sells milk for $1.33 a half
gallon, but regular stores have a much higher price, but still lower than
PA.

== 6 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 7:43 pm
From: me@privacy.net

Neon John <no@never.com> wrote:

>>What is your philosophy on having/owning bunch of stuff
>>like this? You don't mind it taking up space or having
>>to move it around?
>
>You've hit on one of the biggest dilemmas in my life, one that periodically
>causes me much stress. Stuff. How much to have and what to do with it.

Understand

I'm too much the OTHER direction... not enough stuff!

I guess what I wondering is where is that middle ground
between me and you and what does it look like? is it
different for every person? Or is there some kind of
bare minimum that all of us should have?

== 7 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 8:35 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

me@privacy.net wrote
> Neon John <no@never.com> wrote

>>> What is your philosophy on having/owning bunch of stuff
>>> like this? You don't mind it taking up space or having
>>> to move it around?

>> You've hit on one of the biggest dilemmas in my life, one that
>> periodically causes me much stress. Stuff. How much to have and
>> what to do with it.

> Understand

> I'm too much the OTHER direction... not enough stuff!

> I guess what I wondering is where is that middle ground between me and you

Corse there is.

> and what does it look like? is it different for every person?

Yep, most obviously it depends on how handy you are etc.

> Or is there some kind of bare minimum that all of us should have?

Nope, that depends on how monk like you are prepared to exist.

== 8 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 8:18 pm
From: Ann

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 18:59:25 -0700, Larry Caldwell wrote:

> In article <pan.2008.07.15.17.45.28.79780@epix.net>, nntpmail@epix.net
> (Ann) says...
>
>> It's what the box says it is - Non-fat dry milk - Total fat 0g.
>> Fat-containing powdered milk couldn't be stored long term without a
>> bunch of stabilizer to keep the fat from going rancid. (Iirc, dried
>> fat-containing milk is used in commercial baking, etc.)
>
> I sometimes use powdered buttermilk for baking.

Pricey stuff, isn't it. SACO powdered buttermilk has <1 gm of fat per cup
(reconstituted), compared with 2.5 gm for 1% milk and 8gm for whole milk.
They do say it has a long shelf life if it's kept refrigerated after
opening. but that it's not intended for drinking.

== 9 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 9:16 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Rod Speed, ye vain tedious rogue, be packing, Sir Knob, ye frothed:

> Hello, have u ever experienced that pain u get when u r bein done
> doggy?i have,even though i enjoy sex,loads!I'd like 2 know what this
> pain is,as when i do get it i can't stand it!it happens in my lowest
> of the low abdomen near my bum hole.thanku v. much

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Diesel Genset Parts
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/50f8ac96967c9a6d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 6:55 pm
From: sherrymao530@gmail.com

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: You are not frugal if......
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3c5261ec65743940?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 7:35 pm
From: Dennis

On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 23:18:46 -0500, Vic Smith
<thismailautodeleted@comcast.net> wrote:

>On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 09:34:24 -0700, Dennis <dgw80@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>I bought my first brand-new car in 1980, a Datsun (now Nissan) 200SX.
>>It had a 2.0L 4-cylinder, 5-speed manual transmission. It was
>>supposed to be a sporty little brother to the 280ZX. I used to
>>average 35mpg commuting with it, and once got 38mpg over a couple
>>tanks on a longer trip down the freeway (in July with the A/C going).
>>OK, it had electronic ignition, fuel injection, etc, but it was almost
>>(now) 30-year-old technology! Why can't the manufacturers at least
>>match that today?
>>
>Hey, you're driving one.

True but, AFAICT, it was pretty much at the top of it's class
mpg-wise. That was a major factor in my choice. Most other
comparable cars (with the possible exception of the Civic) are worse.

>The 2.0L's now are probably a good bit more efficient than the
>Datsun's.
>But the cars they're in are heavier. Window motors, beefier seats,
>airbags, side impact door bracing, etc.
>Thinking about how weight bears on mpg (doh) I looked a bit and found
>this:
>http://www.helsinki.fi/~mjlaine/Palmenia/sas/tiedostot/cars.sas
>
>It may or may not include your 200SX - not sure whether yours was an
>'79, '80 or '81, all of which I assume could be purchased new in 1980.
>You can see evident correlations between weight, HP, acceleration and
>MPG. Just glanced at it and had to resist loading it into a
>spreadsheet for some sorting.
>Looked up the 2006 Corolla 1.8L 5-sp manual - curb weight approx
>2500-2600 lbs EPA MPG 28/37. It's probably better, as yours is.
>So that's as good as the Datsun, and it's a faster, better car.
>They could squeeze more MPG out of the Corolla if they lighten it up a
>bit.

Or made the gearing a little taller. I can go up pretty good grades
at 50mph+ in 5th gear. That seems wrong -- I would prefer a taller
5th gear and downshift when needed if it meant better highway mileage.

>Those 30 year old cars look better because you were 30 years younger
>(-:

The only regret I have about my Datsun is that I was young and foolish
and traded it off too soon. ;-)

Dennis (evil)
--
I'm a hands-on, footloose, knee-jerk head case. -George Carlin

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How much does AC cost you?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/cdcf4b45a8aaec43?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 11:20 pm
From: LoganX

On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 20:19:41 -0700 (PDT), James
<j0069bond@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I get 30 mpg not using AC but only 25 mpg with it on.

Smaller engines tend to use more fuel with A/C on then the larger
ones, that much I have learned.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Design variations for solar space heater
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ad2c689d5a582e5f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 12:00 am
From: Bill Kreamer

The least I can do is intercede on behalf of the poor fan - it really
is easy to justify using one. Do give it a chance, it will improve the
bottom line. Unless the PV panel is free, I'd go with AC.

So how to choose a fan? If other things are equal, when you increase
air flow, the collector runs cooler. That is the direction to go, up
to that certain personal tradeoff point. By that I mean that for air
collectors in general, a cfm is usually reached at which the fan is
too noisy or too expensive.

Anyway, please let us know how your tests come out, and tell us what
fans you try. My range (your mileage may vary), for a 30-35 square
foot collector would be: try fans ranging from 70 cfm (nice and quiet)
to 150 cfm (great thermal efficiency, but noisy.) The middle of that
range is a nice tradeoff. 105 to 120 cfm will usually do the job.

Hey, now that i'm on a roll, I'll advocate for a Very High Surface
Area Absorber. Just my 2 cents here, but I would choose a black
polyester felt, in a fiber density that catches say 80 percent of the
light on the first pass. Some seem to prefer screen, or a similar open
material, but I would go for a nice thick felt, or two layers of
thinner stuff.

Open area is not your friend in an air cooled absorber. An easy way of
evaluating a candidate absorber fabric is to check out the amount of
light passing through a sample. Carefully look through it toward the
sun. You should see a few glints of light; if too much light is
getting through, add a layer.

If you let lots of light through an absorber that's too open, it will
hit the planar back wall of the collector, which, is less efficient at
transferring heat to the air than the absorber. A good strategy is to
intercept as much light as possible as it makes its first pass through
the absorber. What gets through should then be directed back to the
absorber by a reflective back wall, rather than being absorbed by a
black back wall. The absorber is more efficiently cooled by the air
flow, so the collector runs cooler.

Let's say you decide to minimize openness, and to intercept most of
the light using a felt absorber, and that you also use a reflective
back wall. Then, please follow through and use Nick's suggested air
flow pattern - where air moves from the front, through the absorber,
to the rear. This is a "massively parallel" flow pattern. A serpentine
air flow, by contrast, will cause the downstream end of the absorber
to run hot. The ideal is for all areas of the absorber to run at the
same temperature. Any hot spots on the face of an absorber are energy
losers - these areas diaproportionately radiate IR energy out through
the glazing.

And do use a forward-leaning absorber orientation (leans forward at
the top). Feed room temp air into the collector near the bottom, in
front of the absorber. The presence of cooler inlet air next to the
glazing reduces conduction losses, as mentioned by (Nick or Morris)
above. The outlet is from the area behind the absorber. The collector
has a cooler "face," and a hotter "core."

If you send me an email, I'll send back a .pdf of plans for a low cost
collector that uses these principles more or less. If you request it
I'll also attach an ASHRAE efficiency curve that shows a theoretical
72% at intercept. The test was run on Western Michigan University's
test stand. It was the highest efficiency of any air system they had
ever tested. Their testing program no longer exists as I understand.

- Bill Kreamer

-- End Of Hot Air Rant (sorry, couldn't help myself) --

On Jul 15, 8:04 am, Johnnyo <oett...@ptd.net> wrote:
> Thanks Nick and Morris! You are certainly schooling me here.
>
> So i'm finally getting it - the fans are really of no value....better
> to save the PV panel for some other project.
>
> Nick - Thanks for the tip on the local Dynaglass source - i was really
> wanting to use twinwall polycarb but have not been able to find it
> locally, and the shipping/crating charges are steep for a small order
> off the internet. Dynaglass seems a great solution.
>
> It looks like the temps are getting rather high so i'm getting a bit
> worried about code issues if i stay with a plywood back (thinking of
> using existing exterior wall sheathing) and wood sides for the box.
> (Thanks to Gary in his articles for pointing this out). Does anyone
> know if lining the collector interior with foil faced polyiso would
> satisfy the codes? Would think to use aluminum flashing for the
> intake & exhaust.
>
> Thanks again guys!
> John
>
> On Jul 15, 8:27 am, nicksans...@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>
>
>
> > Johnnyo <oett...@ptd.net> wrote:
> > >> > I'm in the planing and design phase for an 8ftx16ft collector for
> > >> > supplemental winter space heating for our home in rural PA. Firm
> > >> > requirements include vertical wall mounting, fan circulation and
> > >> > opposite corner air inlet and outlet (cold in at the bottom and hot
> > >> > out at the top). Glazing will be Sun-Lite HP and back of panel
> > >> > insulation will be rigid polyiso panels.
>
> > The glazing might be 2 $64 4'x16' sheets of Dynaglas corrugated
> > polycarbonate greenhouse roofing from Griffin in Morgantown, PA
> > installed as "solar siding."
>
> > >i chose fan circulation since i already have several suitable DC fans and
> > >a PV panel to drive them.
>
> > A 70 F room on a 30 F day and a C cfm fan in full sun (250 Btu/h-ft^2)
> > and fully-mixed solar-warmed air at temperature T (F) near the glazing
> > would look something like this, viewed in a fixed font:
>
> > 0.9x250x8x16 = 28.8K Btu/h T
> > --- | 1/C
> > |-------|-->|--------------------*---------www--- 70
> > --- |
> > |
> > R1/(8x16) = 1/128 |
> > 30 ------www---------------------
>
> > which is equivalent to this:
>
> > T
> > 1/128 | 1/C
> > -------www----------------www--- 70
> > |
> > | 30+28.8K/128 = 255 F I --->
> > ---
> > -
> > |
> > -
>
> > I = (255-70)/(1/128+1/C) = 23.7KC/(128+C) Btu/h with collection efficiency
> > E = 100I/28.8K = 82C/(128+C)% and average heater air temp T = 70+I/C.
>
> > C = 100 cfm makes I = 10.4K Btu/h and E = 36% and T = 174 F.
> > C = 500 cfm makes I = 18.9K Btu/h and E = 66% and T = 108 F.
>
> > What is your fan cfm?
>
> > With no fans, just holes at the top and bottom to allow thermosyphoning:
>
> > T I --->
> > 1/128 | ---
> > -------www---------------|-->|-- 70
> > | ---
> > | 255 F
> > ---
> > -
> > |
> > -
>
> > According to an empirical chimney formula, I = 16.6Asqrt(H)dT^1.5 Btu/h,
> > with 2 A ft^2 vents and an H' vertical separation. With a 16'x4" slot at
> > the top and bottom and H = 8', I = 250(T-70)^1.5, and T = 255-I/128, so
> > T = 70+((255-T)/1.96)^(2/3). Plugging in T = 100 F on the right makes
> > T = 88.4 on the left. Repeating makes T = 89.3, then 89.2, with
> > I = 21.1K Btu/h and E = 73%.
>
> > >> > Reading posts from the SMEs on this forum as well as many other
> > >> > sources suggests that there are a lot of potential variations in
> > >> > absorber materials (window screen, aluminum sheet, filter fiber,
> > >> > felt), baffle/air channel configuration, absorber placement etc...
>
> > These collectors can be more efficient with a "transpired absorber,"
> > some sort of mesh that allows 70 F air to flow up between the mesh
> > and the glazing and back from south to north through the solar-warmed
> > mesh into the house. This keeps cooler air near the glazing and reduces
> > reradiation loss through the glazing. The house wall behind the mesh
> > should be dark, eg dark green or black.
>
> > >> > So the big question is, does anyone know of documented comparative
> > >> > testing along these lines?
>
> > Gary Reysa has done some of that. I like his air heater design:
>
> >http://www.motherearthnews.com/multimedia/image-gallery.aspx?id=74688...
>
> > I'd use a single layer of black fiberglass window screen for the mesh.
>
> > >> >I've looked but have not found much, so I'm considering building
> > >> >a 4ftx8ft scale test bed where I can easily swap out or change
> > >> >the "innards" in support of an iterative design process.
>
> > Why fuss around with a smaller version, especially if you insist on fans?
>
> > Nick- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

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Wednesday, July 16, 2008

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