Frugal Living: 25 new messages in 9 topics

Thursday, July 24, 2008

25 new messages in 9 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Extreme grocery shopping saves cash as food prices rise
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/00ace7baec84eb05?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 24 2008 9:17 am
From: Jonathan Grobe

On 2008-07-24, clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
> clams_casino wrote:
>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The intended point was that if a significant numbers of drivers would
>> consider the real cost of driving (not simply the cost of gasoline),
>> they'd likely reduce their driving significantly, resulting in a
>> significant reduction in the consumption of gasoline / demand which
>> would in turn, reduce the pricing (via reduced futures /
>> speculation). There's nothing like a glut of product to bring down
>> pricing.
>>
>> If drivers would view their habits at 50 cents/mile (IRS
>> conservatively estimates a 50.8 cent average) vs. the simple 16 cents
>> / mile it costs for $4 gas at 25 mpg, they'd be using a whole lot
>> more mass transit, living a whole lot closer to work and just
>> driving a whole lot less.
>>
> My error - the IRS recently raised that conservative average to $0.585 /
> mile (from $0.505).

These numbers are not appropriate. A substantial amount of the money
used in computing this figure is in fixed costs. So you have to pay
these costs whether or not you do these extra grocery trips. The numbers
you should use in computing whether or not you should do these additional
trips should only involve additional costs.

--
Jonathan Grobe Books
Browse our inventory of thousands of used books at:
http://www.grobebooks.com

== 2 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 24 2008 11:39 am
From: clams_casino

Jonathan Grobe wrote:

>>>
>>>
>>>
>>My error - the IRS recently raised that conservative average to $0.585 /
>>mile (from $0.505).
>>
>>
>
>These numbers are not appropriate. A substantial amount of the money
>used in computing this figure is in fixed costs. So you have to pay
>these costs whether or not you do these extra grocery trips. The numbers
>you should use in computing whether or not you should do these additional
>trips should only involve additional costs.
>
>
>

As I've previously said, it's very easy to claim savings when you
ignore costs.

If you don't buy tires during the trip, is there really a cost involved?

So if no gas is purchased during the trip, should gas costs be ignored?
Since it wasn't an additional cost during that trip, why should it be
considered a cost?.

If a headlight burns out & needs replacement during the trip, should the
entire cost of replacement be considered a cost of that trip?

Hint - only a fool considers just the cost of gasoline when determining
the cost of a trip.

== 3 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 24 2008 11:40 am
From: clams_casino

Brian Elfert wrote:

>clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> writes:
>
>
>
>>At least half that savings is fictitious.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>Is there any wonder why gas prices are so high? Hint - it's primarily
>>ignorant drivers who only consider the cost of gas as their cost of driving.
>>
>>
>
>Some of the costs of driving like insurance are a fixed cost no matter if
>the car is used or not. Insurance in most cases is not priced on miles
>driven.
>
>

Agreed, but in most cases, very little is not a function of miles driven.

== 4 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 24 2008 12:18 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote
> Brian Elfert wrote
>> clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> writes

>>> At least half that savings is fictitious.

>>> Is there any wonder why gas prices are so high? Hint - it's primarily ignorant drivers who only consider the cost
>>> of gas as their cost of driving.

>> Some of the costs of driving like insurance are a fixed cost no matter if the car is used or not. Insurance in most
>> cases is not priced on miles driven.

> Agreed, but in most cases, very little is not a function of miles driven.

Quite a bit actually, particularly the insurance and registration costs, the
finance cost if the car isnt bought for cash, even the depreciation may not
change much, particularly if that particular individual only uses the car much
for that particular use, shopping etc and say otherwise works from home.

== 5 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 24 2008 1:15 pm
From: clams_casino

Rod Speed wrote:

>clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote
>
>
>>Brian Elfert wrote
>>
>>
>>>clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> writes
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>>>>At least half that savings is fictitious.
>>>>
>>>>
>
>
>
>>>>Is there any wonder why gas prices are so high? Hint - it's primarily ignorant drivers who only consider the cost
>>>>of gas as their cost of driving.
>>>>
>>>>
>
>
>
>>>Some of the costs of driving like insurance are a fixed cost no matter if the car is used or not. Insurance in most
>>>cases is not priced on miles driven.
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>>Agreed, but in most cases, very little is not a function of miles driven.
>>
>>
>
>Quite a bit actually, particularly the insurance and registration costs, the
>finance cost if the car isnt bought for cash, even the depreciation may not
>change much, particularly if that particular individual only uses the car much
>for that particular use, shopping etc and say otherwise works from home.
>
>
>
>
There will always be exceptions. That's certainly not the norm.

If someone rarely uses a car, they pay dearly for those miles driven.
Under those circumstances, the use of a cab and / or renting for
occasional trips could actually be a frugal alternative to owning /
maintaining a vehicle.

== 6 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 24 2008 1:25 pm
From: "Evelyn C. Leeper"

clams_casino wrote:
> Jonathan Grobe wrote:
>
>>> My error - the IRS recently raised that conservative average to
>>> $0.585 / mile (from $0.505).
>>
>> These numbers are not appropriate. A substantial amount of the money
>> used in computing this figure is in fixed costs. So you have to pay
>> these costs whether or not you do these extra grocery trips. The numbers
>> you should use in computing whether or not you should do these additional
>
> As I've previously said, it's very easy to claim savings when you
> ignore costs.
>
> If you don't buy tires during the trip, is there really a cost involved?
>
> So if no gas is purchased during the trip, should gas costs be ignored?
> Since it wasn't an additional cost during that trip, why should it be
> considered a cost?.
>
> If a headlight burns out & needs replacement during the trip, should the
> entire cost of replacement be considered a cost of that trip?
>
> Hint - only a fool considers just the cost of gasoline when determining
> the cost of a trip.

Yes, oil, tires, etc. should be included. But probably not insurance
and registration.

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
Just because everything is different doesn't mean
anything has changed. -Irene Peter

== 7 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 24 2008 3:33 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Evelyn C. Leeper <eleeper@optonline.net> wrote:
> clams_casino wrote:
>> Jonathan Grobe wrote:
>>
>>>> My error - the IRS recently raised that conservative average to
>>>> $0.585 / mile (from $0.505).
>>>
>>> These numbers are not appropriate. A substantial amount of the money
>>> used in computing this figure is in fixed costs. So you have to pay
>>> these costs whether or not you do these extra grocery trips. The
>>> numbers you should use in computing whether or not you should do
>>> these additional
>>
>> As I've previously said, it's very easy to claim savings when you
>> ignore costs.
>>
>> If you don't buy tires during the trip, is there really a cost
>> involved? So if no gas is purchased during the trip, should gas costs be
>> ignored? Since it wasn't an additional cost during that trip, why
>> should it be considered a cost?.
>>
>> If a headlight burns out & needs replacement during the trip, should
>> the entire cost of replacement be considered a cost of that trip?
>>
>> Hint - only a fool considers just the cost of gasoline when
>> determining the cost of a trip.

> Yes, oil, tires, etc. should be included.

But those dont affect the cost per mile much even when they are.

> But probably not insurance and registration.

Certainly not. The depreciation of the vehicle in spades as long as that trip isnt done too often.

== 8 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 24 2008 3:37 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote
>>> Brian Elfert wrote
>>>> clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> writes

>>>>> At least half that savings is fictitious.

>>>>> Is there any wonder why gas prices are so high? Hint - it's primarily ignorant drivers who only consider the
>>>>> cost of gas as their cost of driving.

>>>> Some of the costs of driving like insurance are a fixed cost no matter if the car is used or not. Insurance in
>>>> most cases is not priced on miles driven.

>>> Agreed, but in most cases, very little is not a function of miles driven.

>> Quite a bit actually, particularly the insurance and registration
>> costs, the finance cost if the car isnt bought for cash, even the
>> depreciation may not change much, particularly if that particular
>> individual only uses the car much for that particular use, shopping
>> etc and say otherwise works from home.

> There will always be exceptions. That's certainly not the norm.

Yes, but if that trip is only done say monthly, it wont affect the depreciation
of the value of the car much if any at all if the car is otherwise used normally.

> If someone rarely uses a car, they pay dearly for those miles driven.

Nope, not the marginal cost of those miles.

> Under those circumstances, the use of a cab and / or renting for occasional trips could actually be a frugal
> alternative to owning / maintaining a vehicle.

Not necessarily, most obviously with an older vehicle.

His real costs for that shopping trip would be quite close to the ones he
actually used, particularly if he only bothered with the compulsory insurance.

== 9 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 24 2008 5:39 pm
From: "Lou"

"Evelyn C. Leeper" <eleeper@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4888e561$0$7360$607ed4bc@cv.net...
> clams_casino wrote:
> > Jonathan Grobe wrote:
> >
> >>> My error - the IRS recently raised that conservative average to
> >>> $0.585 / mile (from $0.505).
> >>
> >> These numbers are not appropriate. A substantial amount of the money
> >> used in computing this figure is in fixed costs. So you have to pay
> >> these costs whether or not you do these extra grocery trips. The
numbers
> >> you should use in computing whether or not you should do these
additional
> >
> > As I've previously said, it's very easy to claim savings when you
> > ignore costs.
> >
> > If you don't buy tires during the trip, is there really a cost
involved?
> >
> > So if no gas is purchased during the trip, should gas costs be ignored?
> > Since it wasn't an additional cost during that trip, why should it be
> > considered a cost?.
> >
> > If a headlight burns out & needs replacement during the trip, should the
> > entire cost of replacement be considered a cost of that trip?
> >
> > Hint - only a fool considers just the cost of gasoline when determining
> > the cost of a trip.
>
> Yes, oil, tires, etc. should be included. But probably not insurance
> and registration.
>

Whyever not? If he didn't have a car, he wouldn't incur any of these costs.
Sure, he'd have to shop locally, and he'd pay more for a dozen eggs and so
on, but possibly at the end of the year he'd be ahead.

== 10 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 24 2008 5:42 pm
From: "Lou"

"Brian Elfert" <belfert@visi.com> wrote in message
news:m6mdnYKpybfuNRXVnZ2dnUVZ_v3inZ2d@posted.visi...
> clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> writes:
>
> >At least half that savings is fictitious.
>
> >Is there any wonder why gas prices are so high? Hint - it's primarily
> >ignorant drivers who only consider the cost of gas as their cost of
driving.
>
> Some of the costs of driving like insurance are a fixed cost no matter if
> the car is used or not. Insurance in most cases is not priced on miles
> driven.

I don't know at the moment if that's an issue for me, but in years past,
auto insurance costs were partly based on the kind of driving you did - if
you drove to and from work, the annual cost was higher than if you used the
car only for "pleasure" driving. Also, if the commute was more than 10
miles one way, the annual cost was higher.

== 11 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 24 2008 7:09 pm
From: "h"

"Lou" <lpogoda@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:jk9ik.368$GI.299@trnddc05...
>
> "Brian Elfert" <belfert@visi.com> wrote in message
> news:m6mdnYKpybfuNRXVnZ2dnUVZ_v3inZ2d@posted.visi...
>> clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> writes:
>>
>> >At least half that savings is fictitious.
>>
>> >Is there any wonder why gas prices are so high? Hint - it's primarily
>> >ignorant drivers who only consider the cost of gas as their cost of
> driving.
>>
>> Some of the costs of driving like insurance are a fixed cost no matter if
>> the car is used or not. Insurance in most cases is not priced on miles
>> driven.
>
> I don't know at the moment if that's an issue for me, but in years past,
> auto insurance costs were partly based on the kind of driving you did - if
> you drove to and from work, the annual cost was higher than if you used
> the
> car only for "pleasure" driving. Also, if the commute was more than 10
> miles one way, the annual cost was higher.
>

Yup. I work at home and drive a 10 year old, paid for, used car. I pay $500
a year for insurance (no collision) and it's listed as "pleasure". When I
commuted to work 20 miles each way (no collision) it was $750 a year. That
was 10 years ago, so I suspect it's a lot more for commuters these days.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: cheap air jordan 22 PayPal
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/0bf1dd77c84602e3?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 24 2008 9:45 am
From: yuwenwu007@gmail.com

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: look to the bible for answers?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/2c1e11836f90c57d?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 24 2008 10:47 am
From: chief_thracian@yahoo.com (Chief Thracian)

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:50:45 -0700, A Veteran
<georgewkspam@humboldt1.com> wrote:

>Dear President Bush,
<snip>
>Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and
>unchanging.

Well said, all of it. Thanks immensely, georgewk!

--
The Final Testament
http://www.gay-bible.org

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Dieting on a budget
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/7cbeb26b885dc908?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 24 2008 10:58 am
From: chief_thracian@yahoo.com (Chief Thracian)

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:33:24 -0600, timeOday
<timeOday-UNSPAM@theknack.net> wrote:

>I agree. Starch is cheap calories but they don't satisfy for long. Fat
>is pretty cheap calories, if you don't mind having a heart attack later.
> I would like to hear about some cheap sources of lean protein.

Legumes and whole grains.

--
The Final Testament
http://www.gay-bible.org

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 24 2008 11:17 am
From: "ares"

Eggs... they're filling too.

ares

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 24 2008 7:03 pm
From: "h"

"Chief Thracian" <chief_thracian@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4888c287.4769648@amsterdam.newsgroups-download.com...
> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:33:24 -0600, timeOday
> <timeOday-UNSPAM@theknack.net> wrote:
>
>>I agree. Starch is cheap calories but they don't satisfy for long. Fat
>>is pretty cheap calories, if you don't mind having a heart attack later.
>> I would like to hear about some cheap sources of lean protein.
>
> Legumes and whole grains.
>
>
Cut the starch, eat mostly protein and fat, and stop worrying about the
heart attack. Without the carbs your cholesterol will stay low.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Car Depreciation
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5d4818ede437a0f5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 24 2008 11:19 am
From: "Bob F"

"James" <jlinn@idirect.com> wrote in message
news:287b68ac-a8c0-4f7c-b59a-a1df2c3310f0@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

The concept in business is called TCO or total cost of ownership. You
should even include the price of the equipement you use to maintain
the cars.

****************************************************************

But I HAVE to have that!

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 24 2008 4:25 pm
From: Vic Smith

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 07:29:09 -0700 (PDT), James <jlinn@idirect.com>
wrote:

>On Jul 23, 6:35?pm, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>> Bob F wrote:
>>
>> >And what are you paying for insurance and licensing for each of those vehicles?
>>
>> Please.
>>
>> Don't confuse the savings issue by bringing up costs.
>
>But, it does have an impact.
>
>I could buy an old cheap car that used far less gas than my 6 year old
>minivan. And if all I looked at was the purchase cost, it might make
>sense. And my van would depreciate more slowly because I would be
>using it less
>
>But when I look at the additional cost to insure a second vehicle
>(about $180 a month for my first vehicle, 100 for my second), there is
>no way to justify the second vehicle because there is no way I will
>save $100 a month in gas, unless the price of gas continues to climb.
>Plus add $80 a year for licensing, and $45 every other year for
>emissions testing.
>
>The concept in business is called TCO or total cost of ownership. You
>should even include the price of the equipement you use to maintain
>the cars. Until you know the total costs, your ideas about savings are
>speculation.
>
Right. Like the IRS 58 cent cost per mile, generalizations are
generally worthless.
Not sure what OhioGuy exactly does with his 3 vehicles.
Maybe 2 are being used at one time.
The 3rd may be worth having for it's camping convenience.
My insurance cost for that would less than $300 a year and $110
licensing. Sort of a personal call whether it's worth it.
This isn't rocket science and most people who can balance a checkbook
can know exactly what their vehicle is costing them, or make a close
estimate without putting a pencil to paper.

--Vic

==============================================================================
TOPIC: One last cleaning before home remodel
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/18f8bfd31d424652?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 24 2008 11:54 am
From: "MRS. CLEAN"

Let's sum it up!

The majority here think you should leave well enough alone :)

Now, take the money and go out for a lovely meal and don't worry about
living like a pig!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Algodones dentists?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/6d2cb9598c481755?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 24 2008 6:03 pm
From: The Real Bev

Anybody have any recommendations? We need a LOT of work...

--
Cheers, Bev
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
"Tip: Place your houseplants in front of the television during
the next presidential debate and watch how leafy they get."
-- Scott Adams

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 24 2008 6:44 pm
From: Marsha

The Real Bev wrote:

> Anybody have any recommendations? We need a LOT of work...
>

Well, you had me fooled. I was looking for a type of dentist that does
algodones work.

Marsha/Ohio <------ honest, we're not all stupid in Ohio

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 24 2008 7:09 pm
From: The Real Bev

Marsha wrote:

> The Real Bev wrote:
>
>> Anybody have any recommendations? We need a LOT of work...
>
> Well, you had me fooled. I was looking for a type of dentist that does
> algodones work.
>
> Marsha/Ohio <------ honest, we're not all stupid in Ohio

No. That responsibility devolves onto ONE woman from Cleveland who
wasn't allowed to pet her own horse by her horse-trainer -- the one SHE
hired -- and (2) couldn't figure out how Californians kept their lawns
green if it didn't rain in the summer.

--
Cheers,
Bev
<> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>
Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the straps.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 24 2008 7:17 pm
From: Marsha

The Real Bev wrote:

> Marsha wrote:
>> Well, you had me fooled. I was looking for a type of dentist that
>> does algodones work.
>>
>> Marsha/Ohio <------ honest, we're not all stupid in Ohio
>
>
> No. That responsibility devolves onto ONE woman from Cleveland who
> wasn't allowed to pet her own horse by her horse-trainer -- the one SHE
> hired -- and (2) couldn't figure out how Californians kept their lawns
> green if it didn't rain in the summer.
>

I deny any connections to Cleveland, other than visiting the Rock and
Roll Hall of Fame twice. Dennis Kucinich is a short idiot...

Marsha/Ohio

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Now registers the member to bestow 50 integrals! PayPal
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/90fa7947e691813a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 24 2008 6:05 pm
From: The Real Bev

Dan Birchall wrote:

> bashley101+mot@gmail.com (The Real Bev) wrote:
>> Dan Birchall wrote:
>> > bashley101+usenet@gmail.com (The Real Bev) wrote:
>> >> I have no idea at all what he's trying to sell
>> >>
>> >> cheng wrote:
>> >> > Now registers the member to bestow 50 integrals! PayPal
>> >
>> > Obviously he's selling integrals. Didn't you take calculus? :)
>>
>> <sigh> I was an English major. Now if he'd been pushing conjugations...
>>
> We'll have no conjugating in here - this is a family newsgroup. :)

If they have LEGAL conjugational visits in prison libraries, who are we
to turn up our noses?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: What's the most frugal stock right now?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e679f289ca85f247?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 24 2008 6:40 pm
From: Observer

On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 09:22:34 -0500, "OhioGuy" <none@none.net> wrote:

> I don't usually ask others for stock advice, but thought it would be fun
>to see what others out there think right now. I'm in a position to pick a
>couple of stocks as investments in my IRA, and I like to use a value
>approach. In other words, I look for companies that are currently out of
>favor, or that the market has sold off more than would seem to be warranted,
>given long term prospects for the company.
>
> I just loaded up on a couple of inexpensive big pharma stocks, and would
>like to balance those out with stocks from other sectors. Anyone have any
>suggestions for an undervalued stock that is likely to bounce back at least
>20% over the next couple of years? (preferably one with little or no debt,
>and a stock price that is less than 10x cash flow)
>
> Thanks!
>

Food stock. Load your pantry with food. Staples. Canned goods. See
if the price doesn't skyrocket in the next several months.

Course, that don't work in an IRA...

Peak oil? I dunno.

Obama vs McCain? PEAK BULLSHIT!

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Thursday, July 24, 2008

25 new messages in 9 topics - digest

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