Frugal Living: misc.consumers.frugal-living - 20 new messages in 8 topics

Saturday, December 13, 2008

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 20 new messages in 8 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: When is it polite to use the word "stingy"?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/cba5dbae9d5357b6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 12 2008 11:03 am
From: "Rod Speed"

lenona321@yahoo.com wrote:
> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
>> lenona...@yahoo.com wrote

>>> (I posted the following at the alt.fan.miss-manners
>>> newsgroup, but it wasn't as productive as I'd hoped.)
>>> That is, it seems to me that all too often, those who describe a
>>> person or organization as "stingy" are just being pushy and grabby.

>> Neither of those are anything like stingy.

> I think you're confusing the accuser with the accusee.

Wasnt worded very well, but those doing that accusing doesnt have much at all to do
with being pushy, particularly if the characterisation of the stingy person is accurate.

The problem with grabby isnt as bad, but again if the characterisation of the stingy
person is accurate they arent actually being grabby, just saying what they think.

Still not very well said, but I dunno how to say it better.

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 12 2008 11:19 am
From: "Rod Speed"

lenona321@yahoo.com wrote:

>> I don't see why "stingy" is different from any other pejorative -

> It's not, IMO. However, in the Miss Manners thread, as you can
> see when you open it, someone said that "stingy" is not, in fact,
> necessarily a pejorative! I don't agree, but I decided to rephrase
> the question in hope of getting a real answer.

There is a sense in which calling a spade a spade isnt very polite.

Trouble is that if the individual is stingy, there isnt really any non pejoritive
way of saying that except something not as strong like saying someone
is very careful with their money. Particularly if they are inappropriately
careful with their money, like some people who are rolling in it can be,
there's really only one way to describe them if you want to be accurate.

Corse its different when someone is very careful with their money
because they have less money than they require to operate like most
do. Thats not really stingy, just more limited in what they can do.

Stingy really only applys when you can behave normally but choose not to.

> Here's part of what I said in the thread:

> Granted, it WOULD be unloving for parents to spend money
> regularly on luxuries for themselves but not their children, just
> as your significant other would eventually get rightfully annoyed
> after noticing more than once that you spend money generously
> on your friends but not on dating excursions. (Assuming,
> of course, that that person spends generously on you.)

Stingyness doesnt really require any reciprosity. Or more strictly whether
someone is stingy or not doesnt depend on what others do to them.

> And being rich does not mean one is obligated to, say, buy luxuries.

Correct, but thats a different issue to stingyness.

> "Since I am known as a rich person, I feel I have to tip at least
> $5 each time I check my coat. On top of that, I would have to
> wear a very expensive coat, and it would have to be insured.
> Added up, without a topcoat, I save $20,000 a year."
> Aristotle Onassis.

Thats pretty much the rationalisation of a stingy person, as he was notoriously.

Corse Jacky was a notorious spendthrift/brainless bimbo too.

> (end of excerpts)

> I'm also thinking of the Newbery-winning 1967 book, "From the Mixed-Up
> Files of Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler." In that, 12-year-old runaway
> Claudia is angry at her parents for not giving her a big enough
> allowance for her to run away in luxury for more than a few hours.
> (Her allowance, according to the online Inflation Calculator, is under
> $3 per week - in Greenwich, CT.) Still not reasonable of her to think that.

Sure, but thats a rather separate issue to whether her parents really were stingy.

And you cant decide whether the allowance is stingy or not without considering the parents financial circumstances.

Clearly much of what Onassis did was stingy, because he could do anything he liked and chose to be stingy.

So did that arsehole Rockefeller who chose ot install payphones for the guests to use etc.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 12 2008 12:57 pm
From: lenona321@yahoo.com

On Dec 12, 1:53 pm, Clisby <clis...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> lenona...@yahoo.com wrote:

> > I'm also thinking of the Newbery-winning 1967 book, "From the Mixed-Up
> > Files of Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler." In that, 12-year-old runaway
> > Claudia is angry at her parents for not giving her a big enough
> > allowance for her to run away in luxury for more than a few hours.
> > (Her allowance, according to the online Inflation Calculator, is under
> > $3 per week - in Greenwich, CT.) Still not reasonable of her to think
> > that.
>
> Reasonable or not, it has nothing to do with etiquette, so long as young
> Claudia keeps her thoughts to herself.

Except that she clearly didn't keep her harsh thoughts to herself, so
to speak. That is, she was callous enough to run away from home
without warning, take her brother along, and throw her parents into a
panic - and even act surprised when she hears, second-hand, of their
reaction, since she'd sent them a letter after running away, saying
that they were leaving home and not to call the FBI.

Lenona.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 12 2008 1:14 pm
From: lenona321@yahoo.com

On Dec 12, 2:03 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> lenona...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
> >> lenona...@yahoo.com wrote
> >>> (I posted the following at the alt.fan.miss-manners
> >>> newsgroup, but it wasn't as productive as I'd hoped.)
> >>> That is, it seems to me that all too often, those who describe a
> >>> person or organization as "stingy" are just being pushy and grabby.
> >> Neither of those are anything like stingy.
> > I think you're confusing the accuser with the accusee.
>
> Wasnt worded very well, but those doing that accusing doesnt have much at all to do
> with being pushy, particularly if the characterisation of the stingy person is accurate.

> The problem with grabby isnt as bad, but again if the characterisation of the stingy
> person is accurate they arent actually being grabby, just saying what they think.
>
> Still not very well said, but I dunno how to say it better.

What I should have said was, in individual cases that I hear of, often
the demander is only using the word in order to guilt-trip someone who
doesn't really owe the demander anything in the first place.

I was also thinking of a Miss Manners column which I can't find right
now - it's probably buried in here:
http://lifestyle.msn.com/relationships/articlepage.aspx?cp-documentid=8318975

In it, a young man was asking for his grandmother's engagement ring to
give to his fiancee - while the grandmother was still alive, IIRC.
(The letter was written by the mother, I think.) I can't remember the
details or exactly what the question was, but MM suggested that the
man learn to be a lot more cautious in his requests - and be gracious
enough in the event of a refusal. (MM said at one point "or is he just
being grabby?" He may or may not have implied, with no evidence, that
Grandma was being stingy - I can't remember.)

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 12 2008 1:33 pm
From: lenona321@yahoo.com

On Dec 12, 2:19 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> lenona...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
> > And being rich does not mean one is obligated to, say, buy luxuries.
>
> Correct, but thats a different issue to stingyness.
>
> > "Since I am known as a rich person, I feel I have to tip at least
> > $5 each time I check my coat. On top of that, I would have to
> > wear a very expensive coat, and it would have to be insured.
> > Added up, without a topcoat, I save $20,000 a year."
> > Aristotle Onassis.
>
> Thats pretty much the rationalisation of a stingy person, as he was notoriously.

Maybe he was in general, but again, refusing to buy luxuries does not
justify calling a rich person stingy. In the above example, I would
certainly call all of the above luxuries.

Many philanthropists get rich mainly frugality towards themselves, not
just towards their friends and family. That way, at least, they can
spend money on the truly needy. One financial planner said of her
wealthiest clients: "You couldn't pick most of them out of a crowd."

> > I'm also thinking of the Newbery-winning 1967 book, "From the Mixed-Up
> > Files of Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler." In that, 12-year-old runaway
> > Claudia is angry at her parents for not giving her a big enough
> > allowance for her to run away in luxury for more than a few hours.
> > (Her allowance, according to the online Inflation Calculator, is under
> > $3 per week - in Greenwich, CT.) Still not reasonable of her to think that.
>
> Sure, but thats a rather separate issue to whether her parents really were stingy.
>
> And you cant decide whether the allowance is stingy or not without considering the parents financial circumstances.

Exactly. The parents chose to have four children rather than one or
two, and they chose to have a twice-a-week cleaning lady instead of a
full-time housekeeper like all the other families whose kids go to
Claudia's school. (Granted, Claudia was quite right to resent the fact
that, because she was the only girl in the family, she was the only
kid out of the four expected to do the leftover housework. Had the
parents not hired the cleaning lady and made ALL the kids do
housework, maybe they could have increased the kids' allowances. As
things were, Claudia was convinced her 50-cent 1967 allowance was the
smallest in the class and that it was clearly unfair that she had to
skip four hot fudge sundaes over four weeks just to save for train
fare in her plans to run away. But again, that last one is just a
selfish child's sense of logic. She certainly wouldn't have understood
why her parents would want to have two of her siblings in the first
place, since she never liked them.)

Lenona.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: when/where are the Christmas sales?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/1e540ad7239f670a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 12 2008 11:18 am
From: curly'q

clams_casino wrote:
> BigDog1 wrote:
>
>> On Dec 12, 10:17 am, MarkPH...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>> .
>>> looking for something like Black Friday
>>> [store or online]
>>>
>>> i think i read the day after Xmas..?
>>>
>>> thanks
>>> marc
>>>
>>
>> I doubt you'll be seeing many, if any, Black Friday type after
>> Christmas sales. Most retailers have already cut their mark ups to
>> the bare minimum to keep the doors open. Those Black Friday door
>> buster items were sold at a loss to get the fools in the door, who
>> would then spend money even after the handful of "give aways" were
>> gone.
>>
>> You may find a few stores deeply discounting a few items. But those
>> will probably be junk that no one wanted to put under the tree.
>>
>>
>
>
> Read somewhere that the branded items will likely be shipped / dumped
> out of the country where the manufacturers won't allow excessive price
> reductions so they can protect their market pricing.
>
> (Better to dump branded electronics, clothing, etc in South America, etc
> vs. ruining US pricing.)

Do you think the prices on the current crop of lcd and plasma TVs has
bottomed out?

If a brand name 32 goes under 400.......I'd be tempted.

Should do the frugal thing and buy one those 3 year old Sonys cathode
ray TVs that can be had for peanuts these days. I actually just saw a
"lightly used" 2 year old 29" Hitachi for 80

Of course they weigh over a hundred pounds, the screen is the wrong
shape, they take up more room and use more electricity.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 12 2008 12:59 pm
From: BigDog1

On Dec 12, 11:25 am, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com>
wrote:
> BigDog1 wrote:
> >On Dec 12, 10:17 am, MarkPH...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >>.
> >>looking for something like Black Friday
> >>[store or online]
>
> >>i think i read the day after Xmas..?
>
> >>thanks
> >>marc
>
> >I doubt you'll be seeing many, if any, Black Friday type after
> >Christmas sales. Most retailers have already cut their mark ups to
> >the bare minimum to keep the doors open. Those Black Friday door
> >buster items were sold at a loss to get the fools in the door, who
> >would then spend money even after the handful of "give aways" were
> >gone.
>
> >You may find a few stores deeply discounting a few items. But those
> >will probably be junk that no one wanted to put under the tree.
>
> Read somewhere that the branded items will likely be shipped / dumped
> out of the country where the manufacturers won't allow excessive price
> reductions so they can protect their market pricing.
>
> (Better to dump branded electronics, clothing, etc in South America, etc
> vs. ruining US pricing.)

Me too. It's been so long ago I don't remember where. In fact,
that's been the practice of the electronics/tech manufacturers for
years. When new models get released, the few "old" models already on
the store shelves get price reductions. But the ones that are still
in the distribution pipeline get sent overseas. That keeps the market
from being glutted with product they have to deeply discount to get
rid of.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 12 2008 1:24 pm
From: BigDog1

On Dec 12, 12:18 pm, curly'q <ma...@gug.com> wrote:
> clams_casino wrote:
> > BigDog1 wrote:
>
> >> On Dec 12, 10:17 am, MarkPH...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >>> .
> >>> looking for something like Black Friday
> >>> [store or online]
>
> >>> i think i read the day after Xmas..?
>
> >>> thanks
> >>> marc
>
> >> I doubt you'll be seeing many, if any, Black Friday type after
> >> Christmas sales. Most retailers have already cut their mark ups to
> >> the bare minimum to keep the doors open. Those Black Friday door
> >> buster items were sold at a loss to get the fools in the door, who
> >> would then spend money even after the handful of "give aways" were
> >> gone.
>
> >> You may find a few stores deeply discounting a few items. But those
> >> will probably be junk that no one wanted to put under the tree.
>
> > Read somewhere that the branded items will likely be shipped / dumped
> > out of the country where the manufacturers won't allow excessive price
> > reductions so they can protect their market pricing.
>
> > (Better to dump branded electronics, clothing, etc in South America, etc
> > vs. ruining US pricing.)
>
> Do you think the prices on the current crop of lcd and plasma TVs has
> bottomed out?

I think it's close. We may see another 15 to 20 percent drop (which
is pretty significant at the high end), but I doubt we'll see MSRPs go
much lower than that. Your biggest discounts will be on last years
model when new ones come out. I think we'll see more bells and
whistles, better tech specs, and longer warranties, but not price
points much lower than they already are.

> If a brand name 32 goes under 400.......I'd be tempted.

I'd be more than tempted! The 27" CRT in my bedroom will find itself
at the nearest Goodwill drop off.

> Should do the frugal thing and buy one those 3 year old Sonys cathode
> ray TVs that can be had for peanuts these days. I actually just saw a
> "lightly used" 2 year old 29" Hitachi for 80
>
> Of course they weigh over a hundred pounds, the screen is the wrong
> shape, they take up more room and use more electricity.

Wait until after the change over to digital in February. You may find
some of those sets on Craig's List for free if you'll just haul them
away.

>
> LA

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 12 2008 10:24 pm
From: no-spam@sonic.net (Fake ID)

In article <l0y0l.4$iY3.2@newsfe14.iad>,
clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>
>Read somewhere that the branded items will likely be shipped / dumped
>out of the country where the manufacturers won't allow excessive price
>reductions so they can protect their market pricing.
>
>(Better to dump branded electronics, clothing, etc in South America, etc
>vs. ruining US pricing.)

In the runup to Black Friday I read an article that revealed that
retailers had already began to dump their inventory to liquidators,
something that usually happens after Christmas. Mostly clothes, IIRC.

One thing that the spate of recent liquidations make clear is that when
something gets into the hands of a liquidator the price goes *up*. Took
the oomph out of bargain hunting, knowing that retailers didn't want
consumers to get the good deals.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Saving Money on Calendars
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/9b326729403ee2be?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 12 2008 12:59 pm
From: Evelyn Leeper

The year 2009 is a non-leap-year starting on a Thursday. The most
recent identical year was 1998 if you want to recycle an old calendar.
If not, you can, as you can any year, use May of the previous year for
January. Then about mid- to late January you can get a new calendar at
a half or a quarter of what they cost now.

(Frankly, we bought quite a few calendars we really like--mathematics,
movies, etc.--and now re-use them as the appropriate years come up. The
one problem, for us anyway, is that the Jewish holidays are completely
wrong on them.)

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
Be braver. You cannot cross a chasm in two small jumps.

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 12 2008 1:44 pm
From: lenona321@yahoo.com

On Dec 12, 3:59 pm, Evelyn Leeper <elee...@optonline.net> wrote:
> The year 2009 is a non-leap-year starting on a Thursday. The most
> recent identical year was 1998 if you want to recycle an old calendar.
> If not, you can, as you can any year, use May of the previous year for
> January.

Or to keep it really simple, check only what day March 1st is. Then on
leap years, use two calendars - one for Jan-Feb and one for March-Dec.

I keep a list of which years are near-identical in that respect so I
can pick out the right calendar faster from my collection. In theory,
one only needs 14 calendars so as to cover all possible combinations.
But since I want to hang more than one calendar in the house, I'd just
as soon do it differently. Besides, the earliest you're going to see
the same March pattern repeated is five years, anyway - and usually,
it's longer.

And, of course, don't use the more attractive calendars for scribbling
appointments on! (I use scrap-paper calendars for that - and reuse the
nicer ones.)

Lenona.

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 12 2008 6:12 pm
From: hchickpea@hotmail.com

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:44:15 -0800 (PST), lenona321@yahoo.com wrote:

>On Dec 12, 3:59 pm, Evelyn Leeper <elee...@optonline.net> wrote:
>> The year 2009 is a non-leap-year starting on a Thursday. The most
>> recent identical year was 1998 if you want to recycle an old calendar.
>> If not, you can, as you can any year, use May of the previous year for
>> January.
>
>Or to keep it really simple, check only what day March 1st is. Then on
>leap years, use two calendars - one for Jan-Feb and one for March-Dec.
>
>I keep a list of which years are near-identical in that respect so I
>can pick out the right calendar faster from my collection. In theory,
>one only needs 14 calendars so as to cover all possible combinations.
>But since I want to hang more than one calendar in the house, I'd just
>as soon do it differently. Besides, the earliest you're going to see
>the same March pattern repeated is five years, anyway - and usually,
>it's longer.
>
>And, of course, don't use the more attractive calendars for scribbling
>appointments on! (I use scrap-paper calendars for that - and reuse the
>nicer ones.)
>
>Lenona.

Dollar store has some decent calendars for $1. Can't even print out
my own that cheap.

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 12 2008 6:24 pm
From: Jamie

On Dec 12, 6:12 pm, hchick...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:44:15 -0800 (PST), lenona...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >On Dec 12, 3:59 pm, Evelyn Leeper <elee...@optonline.net> wrote:
> >> The year 2009 is a non-leap-year starting on a Thursday. The most
> >> recent identical year was 1998 if you want to recycle an old calendar.
> >> If not, you can, as you can any year, use May of the previous year for
> >> January.
>
> >Or to keep it really simple, check only what day March 1st is. Then on
> >leap years, use two calendars - one for Jan-Feb and one for March-Dec.
>
> >I keep a list of which years are near-identical in that respect so I
> >can pick out the right calendar faster from my collection. In theory,
> >one only needs 14 calendars so as to cover all possible combinations.
> >But since I want to hang more than one calendar in the house, I'd just
> >as soon do it differently. Besides, the earliest you're going to see
> >the same March pattern repeated is five years, anyway - and usually,
> >it's longer.
>
> >And, of course, don't use the more attractive calendars for scribbling
> >appointments on! (I use scrap-paper calendars for that - and reuse the
> >nicer ones.)
>
> >Lenona.
>
> Dollar store has some decent calendars for $1. Can't even print out
> my own that cheap.

That's where i ended up getting my calendar for 2009. I used to work
there. Can't beat some of the stuff you get there.

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 12 2008 6:27 pm
From: Jamie

Evelyn Leeper wrote:
> The year 2009 is a non-leap-year starting on a Thursday. The most
> recent identical year was 1998 if you want to recycle an old calendar.
> If not, you can, as you can any year, use May of the previous year for
> January. Then about mid- to late January you can get a new calendar at
> a half or a quarter of what they cost now.
>
> (Frankly, we bought quite a few calendars we really like--mathematics,
> movies, etc.--and now re-use them as the appropriate years come up. The
> one problem, for us anyway, is that the Jewish holidays are completely
> wrong on them.)
>
> --
> Evelyn C. Leeper
> Be braver. You cannot cross a chasm in two small jumps.

Have one from 1987? That year was the same as 2009 and 1998. I wish I
still had that Miss Piggy calendar from 1981. The dates that were also
identical to those of the upcoming year.

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 12 2008 9:13 pm
From: lenona321@yahoo.com

On Dec 12, 9:12 pm, hchick...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:44:15 -0800 (PST), lenona...@yahoo.com wrote:

> >And, of course, don't use the more attractive calendars for scribbling
> >appointments on! (I use scrap-paper calendars for that - and reuse the
> >nicer ones.)
>
> >Lenona.
>
> Dollar store has some decent calendars for $1. Can't even print out
> my own that cheap.

Maybe not, but I don't use a printer anyway - I just use a pen and a
ruler. I only need to do four months at a time anyway - 2 months per
side of paper.

Lenona.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: storing spices
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/efd68d1cb4d477b1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 12 2008 5:58 pm
From: "Macuser"

I have very good luck with buying fresh dill, and freezing it in a bag for
later use. It tastes just like the fresh, and dried is really pretty
useless. Dill is good in chicken soup, sprinkled on potatoes and on fish.

Technically, dill is an herb and not a spice, but so what?

-------------
http://cashcuddler.com

"Thrift is sexy."

"Goomba" <Goomba38@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:6qbq0pFbrigcU1@mid.individual.net...
> Jack Ricci wrote:
>> I buy very good quality spices from a small ethnic grocery store. The
>> spices come in small pouches made of cellophane that fall apart when you
>> open them. I would like to store them in small containers that I could
>> reseal and that would keep the spices' flavor until needed. I realize
>> that spices get stale quite fast, but still I would like to keep them for
>> a reasonable period of time. Any suggestions? Thank you.
>
> I keep all my spices (in spice jars and packets) in the freezer. They
> remain fresh so much longer. The very worst place you can keep spices is
> near the hot, humid stove. Yet you see people do that time and again.
> I love the spices from Penzeys- www.penzeys.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Folks, this is a real depression, protect your assets
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/cb1cc803cf7130ab?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 12 2008 6:04 pm
From: "Macuser"

If it's happening to other people, it's a recession.
If it's happening to you, it's a depression.

Who can argue this isn't true?

-------

http://cashcuddler.com

"Thrift is sexy."

==============================================================================
TOPIC: www.king-trade.cn > , Spyder hoody, Spyder t-shirt, Spyder jeans,
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/5546e8c56fd4d7cf?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 12 2008 6:19 pm
From: salewholesha@163.com

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TOPIC: Selling artwork in a bad market
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/d3b0c99328f52aea?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 12 2008 6:34 pm
From: "Macuser"

Can anybody give me tips on selling original artwork in a bad market? I
have a whole room full of work to deal with, and could use the tips. Most
recently, an antique painting that was accepted by the Doyle gallery in NYC
for auction sold for less than half the appraised price. The auction
happened to take place on the day the stock market fell 700 points, so this
probably affected the outcome. Just my luck.

And what have you got?

--
http://cashcuddler.com

"Thrift is sexy."

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TOPIC: How to: Live on $12,000 a Year
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/5093baecae696c12?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 12 2008 11:43 pm
From: Salford1

Makes sense.....Given the current climate!

http://www.osawatch.com/2007/02/can_you_live_on.html

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misc.consumers.frugal-living - 20 new messages in 8 topics - digest

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