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Today's topics:
* OT - Survivalism Retail Style - 13 messages, 5 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/da641b3711ca2726?hl=en
* Is This Guy for real? - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/9df9d0fa39faadd9?hl=en
* Anyone else seeing mystery phone numbers on Embarq long distance bill? - 1
messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/5143a3a3f5a603f2?hl=en
* Most effective grease removal from clothes? - 3 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/50e041b05a439b9e?hl=en
* don't gas stations have bathrooms any more? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/104c548907eef340?hl=en
* "Homelessness only happens to other people" - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/b10dcae36d1aacb2?hl=en
* classic Mobile Home q. - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/64184a7b40f05c3d?hl=en
* Remember the old Soviet Union where you had to register copiers and
typewriters and could not do anything without the blessing from the State?
Trusted Computing takes you back to the bad old days and into tyranny. - 1
messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/dcc5ff09e2865633?hl=en
* Medical dilemma - any suggestions? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/df14805001c77364?hl=en
==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT - Survivalism Retail Style
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/da641b3711ca2726?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 13 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 11 2009 12:02 am
From: "Ed Huntress"
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6stefhF831pfU1@mid.individual.net...
> Ed Huntress wrote:
<snip>
>> Your conclusions about inflation are right, but it is true we've been
>> increasing the money supply at a pretty good clip:
>
>> http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h6/current/
>
> Yes, but not PRINTING it as he pig ignorantly claimed.
Again, I don't quibble with your conclusions, but in the interest of
understanding this economic mess we're in, printing currency has been going
on at a good clip, too, for some months now. This is *just paper currency
plus coin*, the currency portion of M1:
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/CURRENCY?cid=25
Use some of the interactive options, such as the "change from a year ago"
tab, and you'll see the picture.
>
>> However, velocity is so low that it's not causing inflation.
>
> And wont any time soon either.
That's probably right, since people and banks are sitting on their money. To
start inflation up again would require quite a bit of demand to get velocity
going, as well as plenty of cash to spend. And it has to start from whatever
level of *deflation* we wind up with, when the current deflationary trend
bottoms out.
>
>> The rates of inflation for food, energy, and everything but food and
>> energy can be seen here (selections you want are at the bottom of the
>> list):
>
>> http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/categories/9
>
>> Food has just flattened out.
>
> And will stay that way too.
Food tends to track energy costs, which are a big component of food costs.
But food prices lag energy prices by months. The flattened peak we see on
that graph just identifies where food has recently reacted to the drop in
energy prices; now we can expect a decline in food prices, although it won't
follow oil all the way to the bottom.
Food prices were driven up, too, by corn ethanol production, which has
driven prices for packaged foods and meat 'way up, and by the sudden food
demand over the past couple of years from developing countries that were
doing well until a few months ago. Now that demand for both is down, they,
too, will drag food prices down. Again, it doesn't look likely that the
bottom will drop out of them; they'll just follow general trends in energy
and worldwide food demand.
>
>> "Everything but" flattened early last month. The overall rate of
>> inflation, if you project from the mid-December numbers, probably just
>> crossed the zero point within the last week.
>
>> So every major category is now flat -- no inflation, or darned close to
>> it.
>
> So everything he claimed is just plain wrong.
Pretty much, except that there *is* a lot of new currency being printed. But
most people (including Curly, apparently) make too much of that. The idea
that increases in money supply automatically cause inflation is not correct.
That idea is based on a couple of assumptions that don't always hold. For
example, people just aren't buying stuff like they were, so lack of demand
is keeping prices down. The stagflation we had in the '70s included a
wage-price spiral that is not going on now, and is nowhere in sight. Wages
have hardly moved.
It's not that we couldn't possibly have a round of stagflation right in the
middle of this mess, but it isn't happening now and it doesn't look likely
to happen.
Back in the '70s, before Paul Volcker was put in charge, the Fed was not
confident about monetary controls. Since we got out of that stagflation
they've learned what it takes to clamp inflation down, and they're likely to
put a lid on it again if it starts up again. But if prices turn up very soon
(unlikely, but nothing is impossible), they're going to face a real dilemma,
because raising interest rates to contain inflation could leave any economic
recovery stillborn. They're going to be sitting on pins and needles now for
most of the year, if not for a couple of years.
>
>> There is no stagflation, in other words.
>
> And nothing like it either.
>
>> We have recession, and we'll probably soon have overall deflation.
>
> Yep, and it remains to be seen how long the recession will
> last for with the massive attempts to do something about that.
>
>> BTW, for whoever was complaining about the lack of M3, that's not what
>> measures currency (although currency is a part of M3). Currency is M0.
>> The M1 measure is very close. The lack of M3 data, which is
>> pretty useless to almost everyone anyway, doesn't have anything to do
>> with what we know about how much money the government is "printing."
>
> He's had that explained to him repeatedly, in one ear and straight out the
> other.
Too bad. When you hear someone complain about the lack of M3 data, the first
thing to ask is what they'd do with it if they had it. The second question
is, what do they think M3 data tells us. d8-)
--
Ed Huntress
== 2 of 13 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 11 2009 12:20 am
From: "Ed Huntress"
"ATP*" <waxwingslain@azurepane.com> wrote in message
news:496988ed$0$4889$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>
> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
> news:4967c26a$0$14317$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>
>> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:9042e9de-3b9b-40d1-b528-652839d16bd8@40g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jan 9, 2:54 pm, "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:424d0d45-87a6-46df-8d83-fc9f6fac0cbb@o4g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Jan 9, 11:55 am, Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudg...@live.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On Fri, 09 Jan 2009 13:06:05 +0000, EskWIRED wrote:
>>> > > In misc.survivalism Ed Huntress <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> > >> <EskWI...@spamblock.panix.com> wrote in message
>>> > >>news:gk2ntk$ih9$2@reader1.panix.com...
>>> > >> > In misc.survivalism Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudg...@live.com>
>>> > >> > wrote:
>>>
>>> > >> >> I wonder if it's possible to simultaneously suffer both
>>> > >> >> deflation
>>> > >> >> and inflation?
>>>
>>> > >> > Winston says Yes.
>>>
>>> > >> Winston be wrong. You can have inflation and a contracting economy
>>> > >> (stagflation), or deflation and a contracting economy (recession),
>>> > >> but
>>> > >> you can't have aggregate inflation and aggregate deflation at the
>>> > >> same
>>> > >> time.
>>>
>>> > > Yep. But try to tell him that, and he will change the subject.
>>>
>>> > Instead of dissing Winston, I'd like to hear more about stagflation.
>>>
>>> > I'm not participating much in this thread because it's not my area of
>>> > expertise and I'm enjoying, deeply, the dialog and seeing things in a
>>> > different light than my preconceptions. I suspect many others are
>>> > likewise sitting on the sidelines watching the dialog intently. Thanks
>>> > for the comments and please do not pull the regular misc.survivalism
>>> > tactic of belittling each other. This is educational, let us form our
>>> > own opinions among different viewpoints rather than trying to hammer
>>> > each
>>> > other into your personal opinion.
>>>
>>> > Early in Reagan's term we were worried about stagflation, it seem to
>>> > be
>>> > upon us now. The death spiral it represents seems to have a snowball
>>> > effect where it is self-feeding and therefore difficult to escape once
>>> > entered.
>>>
>>> > Are we not entering a period of "stagflation"?
>>>
>>> > --
>>> > Regards, Curly
>>>
>>> Sorry, Curly, but I have you blocked and only saw this on the quote.
>>> d8-)
>>>
>>> No, this is not stagflation. The economy is winding down and
>>> unemployment is
>>> rising, but the trend in general price levels has turned down and the
>>> fear
>>> now is deflation. When those three things go together, you have
>>> recession,
>>> not stagflation.
>>>
>>> Stagflation implies an upward spiral in inflation. Regardless of what
>>> source
>>> you accept for current price levels, there is no increase; the CPI has
>>> been
>>> falling sharply since July.
>>>
>>> That doesn't mean that it can't happen in the future, but it looks
>>> unlikely
>>> for quite a while to come. We're in a deepening recession, and most
>>> people
>>> who watch closely expect price levels to fall more before they level
>>> off.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ed Huntress- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>>>How about once those hundreds of billions of dollars that are being
>>>printed enter the economy?
>>
>> We'll see. The dollar has been flat or rising against most other
>> currencies, so it's unlikely that inflation would take right off with
>> even a large increase in money supply. At some point, yes, it will cause
>> inflation -- but not before velocity increases (in other words, before
>> people start buying stuff).
>>
>> What will matter is the point from which inflation occurs. Right now it
>> appears we've just crossed the zero point into deflation. If it's six
>> months before the trend turns up, a little inflation will be a very
>> welcome thing.
>>
>> --
>> Ed Huntress
> Money is also "created" through fractional reserve banking and other ways
> that are "less straightforward".
Right. About half of the M1 measure of money supply, which is currency plus
demand deposits, is currency. The other half is mostly the result of loans
that wind up in checking accounts -- demand deposits.
> The stimulus money is likely not enough to offset the contraction in
> available funds due to more conservative banking practices and the
> collapse of questionable assets.
Well, it may look like that on the surface, but there is some funny stuff
here that I haven't studied enough to have an opinion about it. Those
"questionable assets" likely were not appearing in demand deposits to begin
with, so where is all of the money that's floating around? Look at GDP
figures and money supply, and velocity is measured by dividing one by the
other. It's too soon to tell what the current velocity number is but there's
got to be some piles of money sitting somewhere, because it's clear that GDP
isn't climbing, while money supply is.
Are those demand deposits all personal checking accounts? Not likely. Are
they business checking accounts? It doesn't look that way. Did the banks
suddenly double or triple their reserves for checking accounts? Not that
I've heard.
Maybe someone knows how billions in currency and demand deposits could be
sitting around while sales of goods and services are falling off, but it's
not me.
--
Ed Huntress
== 3 of 13 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 11 2009 1:05 am
From: "John R. Carroll"
"Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4969abe1$0$4899$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>
> "ATP*" <waxwingslain@azurepane.com> wrote in message
> news:496988ed$0$4889$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>
>> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
>> news:4967c26a$0$14317$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>>
>>> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:9042e9de-3b9b-40d1-b528-652839d16bd8@40g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Jan 9, 2:54 pm, "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>>> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> news:424d0d45-87a6-46df-8d83-fc9f6fac0cbb@o4g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
>>>> On Jan 9, 11:55 am, Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudg...@live.com> wrote:
>>>>
> Maybe someone knows how billions in currency and demand deposits could be
> sitting around while sales of goods and services are falling off, but it's
> not me.
For the three months ending last November, the compound annual rate for the
CPI was a negative -10.2%, reflecting the almost 70% drop in energy.
Annualized core CPI for the last three months ending November was a very low
0.4%. November CPI was a flat 0.0%. It has been falling steadily for the
last five months. December is likely to be negative. That is the trend Ed,
if you are a central banker it is not one you like. This trend is being
manifested in every part of the developed and much of the developing world.
It is a global problem.
The economy is going to have real trouble getting back to trend growth with
the housing market where it is now. New home sales fell 2.9% in November and
the median price declined 11.5%. Unsold inventories stood at a rate of
11.5-month supply. Housing starts fell nearly 19% in November, while the
number of building permits was down 15.6%. Sales of existing homes in
November fell more than 8%.
The S&P/Case-Shiller 20-city housing index showed an 18% drop in prices in
October from a year earlier, while the 10-city index declined 19.1%. Prices
in the 20-city index have fallen more than 23% since their July 2006 peak,
while the 10-city index is down 25% since its top in June 2006.
It will be 2011 before we work through the excess supply of homes,
especially as we are seeing more and more come onto the market because of
foreclosures. Prices are likely to drop another 10% and about 10% of all
mortgages are either delinquent or in foreclosure. That's a ;ot of mortgages
and money in play. It's also a ;ot of wealth that has or is going to
dissapear. 2009 mortgage resets will provide some direct stimulus because
payments will drop instead of rising but the question then will be what the
extra money will be used for. People might just save it, or pay off debt and
if that's what happens the stimulus effect will be zero.
I also don't see why anyone is encouraged by recent "jobless" reports. They
have dropped back to "only" 467,000 in initial unemployment claims, down
from 491,000 for the last week, after being over 500,000 for several weeks.
It wasn't that long ago that we were around 300K you know. Those numbers are
seasonally adjusted as you know. Whatever "hope" there might be evaporates
as soon as you look at the actual numbers. For the current reporting week
ending January 3, 2009, the advance number of initial claims came in at
726,420. Last week's advance number was 717,000. We have been above 600,000
new initial claims every week since the third week of November. Continuing
claims increases by 744,000 to 5,316,124. That's huge amd not just
numerically. It tells you something about the usefulness of the popular set
of metrics used for assesing capacity. Add people who have part-time jobs
but would like a full-time job, and what are called marginally attached
workers, the current unemployment rate is already 13.5% nationwide and - I'm
guessing to some extent - about 20% or more in the mid west.
Central banks around the world continue to cut their target rates but you
can only do so much beyond a certain point.
The distrust of banks to borrowers - even other banks - is ref;ected in the
large spread between LIBOR and T-Bills.
The M2 money supply is 60 times bank reserves, so normally when the Fed
gives the bank another dollar in reserves, M2 rises by $60.
Here is the important part - between August and November of last year, the
$577 billion rise in reserves resulted in $264 billion growth in M2, less
than one half.
Does this clear things up for you Ed?
LOL
--
JC
== 4 of 13 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 11 2009 1:47 am
From: "Ed Huntress"
"John R. Carroll" <jcarroll@ubu,machiningsolution.com> wrote in message
news:pGial.13439$YU2.2586@nlpi066.nbdc.sbc.com...
>
> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
> news:4969abe1$0$4899$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>
>> "ATP*" <waxwingslain@azurepane.com> wrote in message
>> news:496988ed$0$4889$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>>
>>> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
>>> news:4967c26a$0$14317$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>>>
>>>> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:9042e9de-3b9b-40d1-b528-652839d16bd8@40g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
>>>> On Jan 9, 2:54 pm, "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>>>> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>
>>>>> news:424d0d45-87a6-46df-8d83-fc9f6fac0cbb@o4g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> On Jan 9, 11:55 am, Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudg...@live.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>> Maybe someone knows how billions in currency and demand deposits could be
>> sitting around while sales of goods and services are falling off, but
>> it's not me.
>
> For the three months ending last November, the compound annual rate for
> the CPI was a negative -10.2%, reflecting the almost 70% drop in energy.
> Annualized core CPI for the last three months ending November was a very
> low 0.4%. November CPI was a flat 0.0%. It has been falling steadily for
> the last five months. December is likely to be negative. That is the trend
> Ed, if you are a central banker it is not one you like. This trend is
> being manifested in every part of the developed and much of the developing
> world. It is a global problem.
Yeah, I know. I think I wrote three posts yesterday saying essentially the
same thing, except I'm avoiding the direct energy cost because it's no
longer necessary to showing a declining CPI.
>
> The economy is going to have real trouble getting back to trend growth
> with the housing market where it is now. New home sales fell 2.9% in
> November and the median price declined 11.5%. Unsold inventories stood at
> a rate of 11.5-month supply. Housing starts fell nearly 19% in November,
> while the number of building permits was down 15.6%. Sales of existing
> homes in November fell more than 8%.
>
> The S&P/Case-Shiller 20-city housing index showed an 18% drop in prices in
> October from a year earlier, while the 10-city index declined 19.1%.
> Prices in the 20-city index have fallen more than 23% since their July
> 2006 peak, while the 10-city index is down 25% since its top in June 2006.
>
> It will be 2011 before we work through the excess supply of homes,
> especially as we are seeing more and more come onto the market because of
> foreclosures. Prices are likely to drop another 10% and about 10% of all
> mortgages are either delinquent or in foreclosure. That's a ;ot of
> mortgages and money in play. It's also a ;ot of wealth that has or is
> going to dissapear. 2009 mortgage resets will provide some direct stimulus
> because payments will drop instead of rising but the question then will be
> what the extra money will be used for. People might just save it, or pay
> off debt and if that's what happens the stimulus effect will be zero.
>
> I also don't see why anyone is encouraged by recent "jobless" reports.
> They have dropped back to "only" 467,000 in initial unemployment claims,
> down from 491,000 for the last week, after being over 500,000 for several
> weeks. It wasn't that long ago that we were around 300K you know. Those
> numbers are seasonally adjusted as you know. Whatever "hope" there might
> be evaporates as soon as you look at the actual numbers. For the current
> reporting week ending January 3, 2009, the advance number of initial
> claims came in at 726,420. Last week's advance number was 717,000. We have
> been above 600,000 new initial claims every week since the third week of
> November. Continuing claims increases by 744,000 to 5,316,124. That's huge
> amd not just numerically. It tells you something about the usefulness of
> the popular set of metrics used for assesing capacity. Add people who have
> part-time jobs but would like a full-time job, and what are called
> marginally attached workers, the current unemployment rate is already
> 13.5% nationwide and - I'm guessing to some extent - about 20% or more in
> the mid west.
>
> Central banks around the world continue to cut their target rates but you
> can only do so much beyond a certain point.
> The distrust of banks to borrowers - even other banks - is ref;ected in
> the large spread between LIBOR and T-Bills.
> The M2 money supply is 60 times bank reserves, so normally when the Fed
> gives the bank another dollar in reserves, M2 rises by $60.
> Here is the important part - between August and November of last year, the
> $577 billion rise in reserves resulted in $264 billion growth in M2, less
> than one half.
>
> Does this clear things up for you Ed?
> LOL
No. <g> So tell me, where are the billlions of M1 money hiding? That isn't
the bailout money, because that isn't part of M1.
--
Ed Huntress
== 5 of 13 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 11 2009 1:52 am
From: "John R. Carroll"
"Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4969c025$0$4887$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>
> "John R. Carroll" <jcarroll@ubu,machiningsolution.com> wrote in message
> news:pGial.13439$YU2.2586@nlpi066.nbdc.sbc.com...
>>
>> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
>> news:4969abe1$0$4899$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>>
>>> "ATP*" <waxwingslain@azurepane.com> wrote in message
>>> news:496988ed$0$4889$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>>>
>>>> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:4967c26a$0$14317$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:9042e9de-3b9b-40d1-b528-652839d16bd8@40g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> On Jan 9, 2:54 pm, "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>>>>> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>
>>>>>> news:424d0d45-87a6-46df-8d83-fc9f6fac0cbb@o4g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>> On Jan 9, 11:55 am, Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudg...@live.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>> Does this clear things up for you Ed?
>> LOL
>
> No. <g> So tell me, where are the billlions of M1 money hiding? That isn't
> the bailout money, because that isn't part of M1.
I'd bet it's in what is euphemistically referred to as the "Underground"
economy.
The money hasn't dissapeared, it just can't be accounted for.
There is a difference.
--
JC
== 6 of 13 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 11 2009 7:23 am
From: "Ed Huntress"
"John R. Carroll" <jcarroll@ubu,machiningsolution.com> wrote in message
news:Dljal.13441$YU2.12856@nlpi066.nbdc.sbc.com...
>
> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
> news:4969c025$0$4887$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>
>> "John R. Carroll" <jcarroll@ubu,machiningsolution.com> wrote in message
>> news:pGial.13439$YU2.2586@nlpi066.nbdc.sbc.com...
>>>
>>> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
>>> news:4969abe1$0$4899$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>>>
>>>> "ATP*" <waxwingslain@azurepane.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:496988ed$0$4889$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:4967c26a$0$14317$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:9042e9de-3b9b-40d1-b528-652839d16bd8@40g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>> On Jan 9, 2:54 pm, "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> news:424d0d45-87a6-46df-8d83-fc9f6fac0cbb@o4g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>> On Jan 9, 11:55 am, Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudg...@live.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>> Does this clear things up for you Ed?
>>> LOL
>>
>> No. <g> So tell me, where are the billlions of M1 money hiding? That
>> isn't the bailout money, because that isn't part of M1.
>
> I'd bet it's in what is euphemistically referred to as the "Underground"
> economy.
> The money hasn't dissapeared, it just can't be accounted for.
> There is a difference.
That's a pretty big underground (illegal) economy. Maybe.
--
Ed Huntress
== 7 of 13 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 11 2009 7:58 am
From: "John R. Carroll"
"Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:496a0ef7$0$14305$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>
> "John R. Carroll" <jcarroll@ubu,machiningsolution.com> wrote in message
> news:Dljal.13441$YU2.12856@nlpi066.nbdc.sbc.com...
>>
>> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
>> news:4969c025$0$4887$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>>
>>> "John R. Carroll" <jcarroll@ubu,machiningsolution.com> wrote in message
>>> news:pGial.13439$YU2.2586@nlpi066.nbdc.sbc.com...
>>>>
>>>> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:4969abe1$0$4899$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>>>>
>>>>> "ATP*" <waxwingslain@azurepane.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:496988ed$0$4889$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:4967c26a$0$14317$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:9042e9de-3b9b-40d1-b528-652839d16bd8@40g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>> On Jan 9, 2:54 pm, "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> news:424d0d45-87a6-46df-8d83-fc9f6fac0cbb@o4g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>>> On Jan 9, 11:55 am, Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudg...@live.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>> Does this clear things up for you Ed?
>>>> LOL
>>>
>>> No. <g> So tell me, where are the billlions of M1 money hiding? That
>>> isn't the bailout money, because that isn't part of M1.
>>
>> I'd bet it's in what is euphemistically referred to as the "Underground"
>> economy.
>> The money hasn't dissapeared, it just can't be accounted for.
>> There is a difference.
>
> That's a pretty big underground (illegal) economy. Maybe.
I should have included a <G> or a smiley Ed, althougth the underground here
is the US alone is very large.
Two things. First there is the increase in the capital base our government
has sponsored. It's massive and isn't counted in M1.
Second, everyone seems to have trouble remembering the discount window and
investment banking.
Prior to TARP there was TURD and part of the consolidation that went on
under TURD, and continues under TARP, involved the willingness to "dispose"
of exchanges through the discount window that hadn't been repaid. Everyone
put their worst - the really crappy stuff that was known to be at deaths
door - mortgage backed securities ( bonds and CDO's principally) through
the window for cash and they did it at face value for the bonds and par for
the securitized stuff..
Except for the stuff Iggy says he's holding, that's what has happened to the
rest of the difference.
One last comment, and I've not seen this topic adressed here. The reason the
Bush administration didn't want to propose sweeping legistlative action is
that the wouldn't have gotten it passed without equal opportunity
provisions. In the beginning, they really did believe - quite stupidly -
that the problems being seen and forecast were a market response to things
like CRA money.
I don't use this sort of language but can't express it any other way so here
goes. Bushco thought that the problem was all of those ignorant spics and
niggers getting financing they didn't "deserve". They were going to just
drive this "impurity" from the markets as the solution.
The Republican "Southern Strategy" came to full fruition. That is the only
reason for the big media campaign by the administrations top echelon
pointing to CRA as well as Freddie and Fannie.
The minorities weren't the problem. That is now clear. It was Wall Street
white trash and their political hand maidens. You know - Phill Graham, John
McCain and George W. Bush. Larry Summers and Bob Rubin were certainly free
marketers in the Phil Graham mold but they aren't bigots Ed and that's what
set these two groups apart. Their actions were somewhat concerted but their
motives were very different. I think that Americans felt that in their gut
at some point last summer and it showed up at the polls in November.
"Were it not for the grace of God, there go I" was the theme.
--
JC
== 8 of 13 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 11 2009 8:27 am
From: "Rod Speed"
Ed Huntress wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Ed Huntress wrote
>>> Your conclusions about inflation are right, but it is true we've
>>> been increasing the money supply at a pretty good clip:
>>> http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h6/current/
>> Yes, but not PRINTING it as he pig ignorantly claimed.
> Again, I don't quibble with your conclusions, but in the interest of
> understanding this economic mess we're in, printing currency has been going on at a good clip, too, for some months
> now. This is *just paper currency plus coin*, the currency portion of M1:
> http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/CURRENCY?cid=25
> Use some of the interactive options, such as the "change from a year
> ago" tab, and you'll see the picture.
Nothing like the presses smoking as he keeps pig ignorantly claiming.
>>> However, velocity is so low that it's not causing inflation.
>> And wont any time soon either.
> That's probably right, since people and banks are sitting on their
> money. To start inflation up again would require quite a bit of
> demand to get velocity going, as well as plenty of cash to spend. And it has to start from whatever level of
> *deflation* we wind up with, when the current deflationary trend bottoms out.
Precisely.
>>> The rates of inflation for food, energy, and everything but food and energy can be seen here (selections you want
>>> are at the bottom of the list):
>>> http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/categories/9
>>> Food has just flattened out.
>> And will stay that way too.
> Food tends to track energy costs, which are a big component of food costs.
Which is why food prices will stay flattened out while ever
the world economy tanking keeps the price of energy low.
BUT its often not realised that even if the farm gate price of food
was zero, it would have very little effect on the retail price.
> But food prices lag energy prices by months. The flattened
> peak we see on that graph just identifies where food has recently reacted to the drop in energy prices;
Its more that the previous effect of drought
has now gone, particularly with wheat and rice.
> now we can expect a decline in food prices, although it won't follow oil all the way to the bottom.
Yep, like I said, even if the farm gate price is zero, the retail price never is anything like that.
> Food prices were driven up, too, by corn ethanol production,
Thats a relatively small effect and the tanking of the world
economy has affected the demand for ethanol anyway.
> which has driven prices for packaged foods and meat 'way up,
No it hasnt. Thats pure myth.
> and by the sudden food demand over the past couple of years from developing countries that were doing well until a few
> months ago.
There never was any sudden food demand from developing countrys.
> Now that demand for both is down, they, too, will drag food prices down. Again, it doesn't look likely that the bottom
> will drop out of them; they'll just follow general trends in energy and worldwide food demand.
But we wont see significant inflation there any time soon.
>>> "Everything but" flattened early last month. The overall rate of inflation, if you project from the mid-December
>>> numbers, probably just crossed the zero point within the last week.
>>> So every major category is now flat -- no inflation, or darned close to it.
>> So everything he claimed is just plain wrong.
> Pretty much, except that there *is* a lot of new currency being printed.
Nope, nothing like the mindlessly silly claim about the presses smoking.
> But most people (including Curly, apparently) make too much of that. The idea that increases in money supply
> automatically cause inflation is not correct. That idea is based on a couple of
> assumptions that don't always hold. For example, people just aren't
> buying stuff like they were, so lack of demand is keeping prices down. The stagflation we had in the '70s included a
> wage-price spiral that is not going on now, and is nowhere in sight. Wages have hardly moved.
And thats not going to change with the world economy tanking.
> It's not that we couldn't possibly have a round of stagflation right in the middle of this mess, but it isn't
> happening now and it doesn't look likely to happen.
Precisely.
> Back in the '70s, before Paul Volcker was put in charge, the Fed was not confident about monetary controls. Since we
> got out of that stagflation they've learned what it takes to clamp inflation down, and they're likely to put a lid on
> it again if it starts up again.
Thats harder to be sure of, particularly if they are attempting to stop what they
decide is the world economy heading for another great depression or close,
particularly as its never the Fed alone that matters in situations like that.
> But if prices turn up very soon (unlikely, but nothing is impossible),
That is with the world economy tanking.
> they're going to face a real dilemma, because raising interest rates to contain inflation could leave any economic
> recovery
> stillborn. They're going to be sitting on pins and needles now for most of the year, if not for a couple of years.
Yep, we could easily see the same effect we saw late in the great depression.
And we cant have another world war now and fix it that way.
>>> There is no stagflation, in other words.
>> And nothing like it either.
>>> We have recession, and we'll probably soon have overall deflation.
>> Yep, and it remains to be seen how long the recession will
>> last for with the massive attempts to do something about that.
>>> BTW, for whoever was complaining about the lack of M3,
Curly, and you have since said you have him killfiled.
>>> that's not what measures currency (although currency is a part of M3).
>>> Currency is M0. The M1 measure is very close. The lack of M3 data, which is pretty useless to almost everyone
>>> anyway, doesn't have anything to do with what we know about how much money the government is "printing."
>> He's had that explained to him repeatedly, in one ear and straight out the other.
> Too bad. When you hear someone complain about the lack of M3 data, the first thing to ask is what they'd do with it if
> they had it. The second question is, what do they think M3 data tells us. d8-)
Not a shred of evidence that he is actually capable of thought }-)
== 9 of 13 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 11 2009 9:03 am
From: F. George McDuffee
On Sun, 11 Jan 2009 01:05:57 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
<jcarroll@ubu,machiningsolution.com> wrote:
>
>"Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
>news:4969abe1$0$4899$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>
>> "ATP*" <waxwingslain@azurepane.com> wrote in message
>> news:496988ed$0$4889$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>>
>>> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
>>> news:4967c26a$0$14317$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>>>>
>>>> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:9042e9de-3b9b-40d1-b528-652839d16bd8@40g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
>>>> On Jan 9, 2:54 pm, "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>>>> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>
>>>>> news:424d0d45-87a6-46df-8d83-fc9f6fac0cbb@o4g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> On Jan 9, 11:55 am, Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudg...@live.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>> Maybe someone knows how billions in currency and demand deposits could be
>> sitting around while sales of goods and services are falling off, but it's
>> not me.
>
>For the three months ending last November, the compound annual rate for the
>CPI was a negative -10.2%, reflecting the almost 70% drop in energy.
>Annualized core CPI for the last three months ending November was a very low
>0.4%. November CPI was a flat 0.0%. It has been falling steadily for the
>last five months. December is likely to be negative. That is the trend Ed,
>if you are a central banker it is not one you like. This trend is being
>manifested in every part of the developed and much of the developing world.
>It is a global problem.
>
>The economy is going to have real trouble getting back to trend growth with
>the housing market where it is now. New home sales fell 2.9% in November and
>the median price declined 11.5%. Unsold inventories stood at a rate of
>11.5-month supply. Housing starts fell nearly 19% in November, while the
>number of building permits was down 15.6%. Sales of existing homes in
>November fell more than 8%.
>
Part of the problem is that significant numbers of people have
discovered they don't "need" more stuff, and "more stuff" is not
making they any happier. They have also discovered that for
walking around, a pair of walmart shoes performs exactly the same
function as Guccis.
>
>The S&P/Case-Shiller 20-city housing index showed an 18% drop in prices in
>October from a year earlier, while the 10-city index declined 19.1%. Prices
>in the 20-city index have fallen more than 23% since their July 2006 peak,
>while the 10-city index is down 25% since its top in June 2006.
>
>It will be 2011 before we work through the excess supply of homes,
>especially as we are seeing more and more come onto the market because of
>foreclosures.
Not only that, but spec construction appears to be continuing in
many areas. While it is easy to shout "whoa," it is not so easy
to accomplish when that is the only thing your company (and you)
know how to do. We have paid farmers not to farm for years as
part of the agricultural price support programs, we should at
least consider paying the contractors not to build houses.
>Prices are likely to drop another 10% and about 10% of all
>mortgages are either delinquent or in foreclosure. That's a ;ot of mortgages
>and money in play. It's also a ;ot of wealth that has or is going to
>dissapear. 2009 mortgage resets will provide some direct stimulus because
>payments will drop instead of rising but the question then will be what the
>extra money will be used for. People might just save it, or pay off debt and
>if that's what happens the stimulus effect will be zero.
>
>I also don't see why anyone is encouraged by recent "jobless" reports. They
>have dropped back to "only" 467,000 in initial unemployment claims, down
>from 491,000 for the last week, after being over 500,000 for several weeks.
>It wasn't that long ago that we were around 300K you know. Those numbers are
>seasonally adjusted as you know. Whatever "hope" there might be evaporates
>as soon as you look at the actual numbers. For the current reporting week
>ending January 3, 2009, the advance number of initial claims came in at
>726,420. Last week's advance number was 717,000. We have been above 600,000
>new initial claims every week since the third week of November. Continuing
>claims increases by 744,000 to 5,316,124. That's huge amd not just
>numerically. It tells you something about the usefulness of the popular set
>of metrics used for assesing capacity. Add people who have part-time jobs
>but would like a full-time job, and what are called marginally attached
>workers, the current unemployment rate is already 13.5% nationwide and - I'm
>guessing to some extent - about 20% or more in the mid west.
>
>Central banks around the world continue to cut their target rates but you
>can only do so much beyond a certain point.
It is dificult to reduce a rate below zero. This is where the so
called "quantitive easing" comes into play, basically print more
money.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_easing
"Despite Japan's sustained near zero interest rates, the
quantitative easing strategy did not succeed in stopping price
deflation."
http://biz.yahoo.com/ibd/081210/general01.html?.v=1
http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display/web/2008/12/15/quantitative_easing/
>The distrust of banks to borrowers - even other banks - is ref;ected in the
>large spread between LIBOR and T-Bills.
>The M2 money supply is 60 times bank reserves, so normally when the Fed
>gives the bank another dollar in reserves, M2 rises by $60.
>Here is the important part - between August and November of last year, the
>$577 billion rise in reserves resulted in $264 billion growth in M2, less
>than one half.
>
>Does this clear things up for you Ed?
>LOL
Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
== 10 of 13 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 11 2009 9:46 am
From: EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com
In misc.survivalism Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudgeon@live.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:06:31 +0000, EskWIRED wrote:
> > In misc.survivalism Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudgeon@live.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Then the inflating prices of commodities, cost of livign, may finally
> >> be seen clearly.
> >
> > Commodities are droppig in price currently.
> That depends on your reference, long term moving average is way up.
Notice that I said "currently". Please don't just change the subject.
> Corn has more than doubled since Bush took office, down only in the last
> 18 months from a peak but up overall.
> http://futures.tradingcharts.com/printchart/CN/M
"Currently", is what I said.
> Same with soy and most commodities.
> > We've already discussed
> > oil. All the rest are subject to worldwide shrink in demand.
> Population pressures will drive foodstuffs up as will increasing energy
> prices. Gasoline is already rising now that the elections are over.
Population increases take, well, generations to realize. That is a
different subject from whatis being discussed.
> > A massive
> > contraction in production might shift the balance. In the meantime, I
> > see more pressure downwards than upwards.
> Let's assume that commodities level off at this price. Declining income
> will increase the cost of living, no?
No, declining incomes will reduce demand further. Thus, it is unlikely
that commodites will level off, faced with declining demand.
And declining income has no direct effect on the cost of living numbers,
up or down. The index you are searching for is not CPI, but rather, the
misery index.
--
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
-- Bertrand Russel
== 11 of 13 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 11 2009 9:48 am
From: EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com
In misc.survivalism Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudgeon@live.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Jan 2009 16:24:01 +1100, Jones wrote:
> ---snip---
> > Nope. Because most wont see declining income, you watch.
> Another nym-shifting troll. Which is it tonight, Rod Speed, Jones or
> asshole?
> Can I just use the latter?
Try responding to his points, instead of changing the subject.
--
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
-- Bertrand Russel
== 12 of 13 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 11 2009 9:50 am
From: "Ed Huntress"
"John R. Carroll" <jcarroll@ubu,machiningsolution.com> wrote in message
news:OIoal.13445$YU2.7610@nlpi066.nbdc.sbc.com...
>
> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote in message
> news:496a0ef7$0$14305$607ed4bc@cv.net...
<snip>
>>>>
>>>> No. <g> So tell me, where are the billlions of M1 money hiding? That
>>>> isn't the bailout money, because that isn't part of M1.
>>>
>>> I'd bet it's in what is euphemistically referred to as the "Underground"
>>> economy.
>>> The money hasn't dissapeared, it just can't be accounted for.
>>> There is a difference.
>>
>> That's a pretty big underground (illegal) economy. Maybe.
>
> I should have included a <G> or a smiley Ed, althougth the underground
> here is the US alone is very large.
>
> Two things. First there is the increase in the capital base our government
> has sponsored. It's massive and isn't counted in M1.
Yeah, but what I was questioning is M1. It's grown immensely, but GDP is
falling, employment is falling off, and real wages are flat or falling. So
it isn't being spent.
But I think I just got part of my answer. It still doesn't explain where all
the new currency is, but checking account balances are going through the
roof. So people are leaving money in their checking accounts. It looks like
something close to a $100 billion increase in the last six months. Yikes.
I'll bet this is the "stimulus" money we got from IRS. I read late last year
that only around 30% of that money had been spent (so much for "stimulus" in
a form of a windfall; it doesn't work very well when people are worried),
but private debt and savings accounts both remained flat. So it wasn't going
to pay off credit cards, either. It may well be that people just put it in
their checking accounts and let it sit there. That would agree with the low
velocity figures, and it would amount to around 60% of the total stimulus.
It all fits -- which makes me uncomfortable, because it's all a little too
neat. These things are rarely so textbook-neat.
Maybe I'll try to track down the currency later.
> Second, everyone seems to have trouble remembering the discount window and
> investment banking.
> Prior to TARP there was TURD and part of the consolidation that went on
> under TURD, and continues under TARP, involved the willingness to
> "dispose" of exchanges through the discount window that hadn't been
> repaid. Everyone put their worst - the really crappy stuff that was known
> to be at deaths door - mortgage backed securities ( bonds and CDO's
> principally) through the window for cash and they did it at face value for
> the bonds and par for the securitized stuff..
OK, but, again, that isn't going to show up as M1 unless the banks loan the
money. And they aren't lending enough *extra* money to explain the runup in
M1, I think. I'd have to think more about that.
>
> Except for the stuff Iggy says he's holding, that's what has happened to
> the rest of the difference.
>
> One last comment, and I've not seen this topic adressed here. The reason
> the Bush administration didn't want to propose sweeping legistlative
> action is that the wouldn't have gotten it passed without equal
> opportunity provisions. In the beginning, they really did believe - quite
> stupidly - that the problems being seen and forecast were a market
> response to things like CRA money.
> I don't use this sort of language but can't express it any other way so
> here goes. Bushco thought that the problem was all of those ignorant spics
> and niggers getting financing they didn't "deserve". They were going to
> just drive this "impurity" from the markets as the solution.
> The Republican "Southern Strategy" came to full fruition. That is the only
> reason for the big media campaign by the administrations top echelon
> pointing to CRA as well as Freddie and Fannie.
<g> I don't doubt that they were looking over their shoulders at the
white-trash conservatives who think like that. We're seeing some of it right
now in the Republican resistance to the proposed stimulus package. It isn't
overt, but, again, it fits their effort to hang onto their base in the
South.
Sorry, southerners. It's been true ever since Nixon turned resentment
towards the '64 CRA act into an exodus of southerners from the Democrats and
into a national election victory. It's a reliable social divider that has
given Republicans a margin of victory in several elections since, and it's
the basis of southern power in the Senate. It isn't most Republicans; it's
just enough to overcome their deficit in party registrations.
>
> The minorities weren't the problem. That is now clear. It was Wall Street
> white trash and their political hand maidens. You know - Phill Graham,
> John McCain and George W. Bush. Larry Summers and Bob Rubin were certainly
> free marketers in the Phil Graham mold but they aren't bigots Ed and
> that's what set these two groups apart. Their actions were somewhat
> concerted but their motives were very different. I think that Americans
> felt that in their gut at some point last summer and it showed up at the
> polls in November.
> "Were it not for the grace of God, there go I" was the theme.
Well, I'll have to defer on all of that. It's pretty clear that Graham is a
full-blooded prick but I don't know how much was ideology and how much was
bigotry all around.
--
Ed Huntress
== 13 of 13 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 11 2009 9:51 am
From: EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com
In misc.survivalism Jones <jones@jones.com> wrote:
> > I see no mitigating indicators in the near term to replace those which will inevitably peter out.
> Because you dont have a clue about the basics.
That is increasing apparent.
Winston - this stuff interests you. But you are confused about basic
relationships. You'd enjoy these discussion more if you were on
solid ground.
--
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
-- Bertrand Russel
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Is This Guy for real?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/9df9d0fa39faadd9?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 11 2009 12:10 am
From: will4good@gmail.com
I found this website today from an email a co-worker sent me....
http://www.TopSecretOnlineProfits.com
i watched his videos on this site, And i'm Blown away, that he's
making over
$2.000.000 a year.
Has anyone in this group tried this program??
Please let me know!
== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 11 2009 3:11 am
From: clams_casino
will4good@gmail.com wrote:
>I found this website today from an email a co-worker sent me....
>
>
>
A coworker sent you a link from your own site? Is he for real?
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Anyone else seeing mystery phone numbers on Embarq long distance bill?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/5143a3a3f5a603f2?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 11 2009 4:03 am
From: pongespob
On Jan 3, 10:54 pm, Stray Dog <sdog2...@sdf.lonestar.org> wrote:
> Rod certainly posts a lot. Why is that?
It seems the only thing less mentally sound than someone posting a lot
of drivel you think has no redeeming value, is to concoct and share
long screeds in tribute to them..
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Most effective grease removal from clothes?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/50e041b05a439b9e?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 11 2009 4:08 am
From: brassplyer
Grease stains seem to be really tenacious. Thinking primarily
petroleum-based grease - automotive etc. Anyone found a product or
combination of products a/or methods that's really effective getting
it out without damaging the cloth?
== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 11 2009 7:42 am
From: gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston)
In article <248516b3-dc95-45c1-b458-9c8d05dcdeb8@q30g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
brassplyer <brassplyer@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Grease stains seem to be really tenacious. Thinking primarily
>petroleum-based grease - automotive etc. Anyone found a product or
>combination of products a/or methods that's really effective getting
>it out without damaging the cloth?
The white gel-type hand cleaners work very well; available at just about
any auto parts store for $0.50 or $1.00 per tub. I keep a tub next to the
laundry supplies in my utility room for this very purpose.
Gary
--
Gary Heston gheston@hiwaay.net http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/
"Behind every successful woman there is an astonished man"
General of the Army (four stars) Ann Dunwoody
== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 11 2009 8:23 am
From: "Bob F"
"brassplyer" <brassplyer@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:248516b3-dc95-45c1-b458-9c8d05dcdeb8@q30g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
> Grease stains seem to be really tenacious. Thinking primarily
> petroleum-based grease - automotive etc. Anyone found a product or
> combination of products a/or methods that's really effective getting
> it out without damaging the cloth?
Any of the "waterless" hand cleaners. Goop is one brand. Rub it into the grease
spots, let it soak awhile (overnight works), then launder it. You might have to
wash it again to get rids of the smell.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: don't gas stations have bathrooms any more?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/104c548907eef340?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 11 2009 4:19 am
From: thedarkonelives@hotmail.com
On Jan 9, 9:45 pm, Brian Elfert <belf...@visi.com> wrote:
> "John A. Weeks III" <j...@johnweeks.com> writes:
>
> >I think you should call both Marathon and the state Attorney General.
> >The building code probably requires a bathroom for the public.
>
> I don't think public bathrooms are required in Minnesota. The state
> either passed or was considering a law that required stores and the like
> to allow people with a certain malady to use any bathroom including
> private employee only bathrooms.
Oh yeah, I can see trying to enforce that one with some joker at the
local Hadji-mart. Wonder even if you took it to the extreme of calling
the cops if they'd even know about it. Then after that they'd just lie
and say "eetz out uv oorrr-duhhrrr", which is what many of them do
anyway.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: "Homelessness only happens to other people"
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/b10dcae36d1aacb2?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 11 2009 5:31 am
From: ultimauw@live.com
On Jan 8, 6:52 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> meow2...@care2.com wrote
>
> > Rod Speed wrote
> >> ultim...@gmail.com wrote
> >>> Walter Bushell wrote
> >>>> ultim...@gmail.com wrote
> >>> A job search is stressful and demoralizing enough,
> >> Only for unemployable fools like you.
> >>> without the rotten economy we are in now.
> >> Hordes can manage fine without a job for a while, child.
> > Yet so many choose to live with such a financial policy that they cant hang on with no job.
>
> They dont actually choose it in the considered choice sense,
> they're just too stupid to origanise their financial affairs so
> that they can survive the inevitable time between jobs fine.
>
> Just like its perfectly possible to pay off every credit card
> in full every month, many are just too stupid to do that.
>
What about those who make so little they can't even think about
savings and have high rents that there minimum
wages can just barely afford? We even had talk here a couple days ago
with someone wanting to eliminate the minimum wage and let employers
pay whatever they feel. Can you say 30 cent an hour wages. Of course,
the rents and food prices would not go down along with the ages.
LOGIC_PROBLEM_FOUND at B5B5:B5B5
== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 11 2009 8:08 am
From: "Rod Speed"
ultimauw@live.com wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
>> meow2...@care2.com wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> ultim...@gmail.com wrote
>>>>> Walter Bushell wrote
>>>>>> ultim...@gmail.com wrote
>>>>> A job search is stressful and demoralizing enough,
>>>> Only for unemployable fools like you.
>>>>> without the rotten economy we are in now.
>>>> Hordes can manage fine without a job for a while, child.
>>> Yet so many choose to live with such a financial
>>> policy that they cant hang on with no job.
>> They dont actually choose it in the considered choice sense,
>> they're just too stupid to origanise their financial affairs so
>> that they can survive the inevitable time between jobs fine.
>> Just like its perfectly possible to pay off every credit card
>> in full every month, many are just too stupid to do that.
> What about those who make so little they can't even think about savings
There's no one like that.
> and have high rents that there minimum wages can just barely afford?
They should get a clue and move to where the rents arent that high.
> We even had talk here a couple days ago with someone wanting to
> eliminate the minimum wage and let employers pay whatever they feel.
That did work in HongKong before it was returned to China.
> Can you say 30 cent an hour wages.
Have fun explaining why we didnt see that in HongKong before it was returned to China.
> Of course, the rents and food prices would not go down along with the wages.
Corse the cost of food would when more grow their own.
So would the cost of rent as more live in the one place.
> LOGIC_PROBLEM_FOUND at B5B5:B5B5
Just another of your pathetic little pig ignorant fantasys, comrade.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: classic Mobile Home q.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/64184a7b40f05c3d?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 11 2009 5:37 am
From: Siskuwihane
On Jan 10, 11:56 am, Dave Garland <dave.garl...@wizinfo.com> wrote:
> Siskuwihane wrote:
> > What's wrong with living in a home that only has the area you need and
> > not the area needed to impress the neighbors?
>
> > Heating and cooling costs would be reduced along with the associated
> > energy used to produce them...
>
> True, although a 1959 mobile home is unlikely to be a particularly
> good example of energy efficiency. But a lot depends on the local
> climate and personal tolerances.
Yes, but compared to the millions of large, older homes in the US, it
definately consumes fewer resources.
My grandmother lived her last 22 years by herself in a huge, 4 bedroom
home that consumed massive amounts of fuel oil. Sure, it was her
money, but what was the cost to the planet and future generations?
Multiply her scenario buy hundreds of thousands (or millions) and you
have a tremendous amount of waste.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Remember the old Soviet Union where you had to register copiers and
typewriters and could not do anything without the blessing from the State?
Trusted Computing takes you back to the bad old days and into tyranny.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/dcc5ff09e2865633?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 11 2009 7:39 am
From: ultimauw@live.com
http://consumerist.proboards88.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1718&page=1
"I'm just curious.. and maybe a little dense because I've never
encountered the things he talks about."
What does this do for the average user? The person who comes home from
work, checks e-mail, browses the net, and maybe fires up a few games
now and then. Is this really such a problem for THAT person?[/quote]
Do you think that companies should be able to dictate what programs
you are allowed to install on your machine? Do you think they should
control what music or video you play on the hard ware that you paid
for? Do you want to keep having to ask permission to do the most basic
computer tasks? Do you want to be automatically regarded as "the
enemy" or "criminal" and let them have the power to cripple/brick your
computer? Does guilty until proven innocent ring a bell here?
The system they are proposing is ment for one purpose, and one
purpose only, to control the *USER* and make sure they can't do
anything without the blessing from above (companies).
Remember the Soviet Union, where copy machines and type writers had
to be registered and people who went against the status quo were
punished? This is a high tech version of that.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Medical dilemma - any suggestions?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/df14805001c77364?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 10 2009 8:04 pm
From: Dave
On 10 Jan 2009 18:26:00 GMT
info_at_1-script_dot_com@foo.com (spendwize.com) wrote:
>
> xxxxo
> -------------------------------------
> There is a 29 year old adult single female living in Texas. Due to several
> chronic and worsening medical conditions ( including IBS and fibromyalgia)
> this gal has been unable to attain and hold a full-time job. She was fired
> from the last one she held for 3 months for taking too many medical
> emergency days (She offered to make her work up but was told the company
> did not have any flex-time policy). Texas, in its conservative wisdom, has
> denied her unemployment benefits. She has applied for social security
> disability, but that process takes well over a year to resolve.
> She is living currently with a "gentleman" acquaintance rent free, but her
> savings are very limited and he- this gentleman- has been known to decide
> on a moments notice that he wants her gone. She has looked into support
> from social services to get her own place to live, but they have a
> wait-list!
> As her mother, I have used the limit of my financial means to subsidize
> her living but I cannot do any more at this point, especially since it is
> likely I will have to assume paying for her medical insurance any day.
> Worst case scenario is that she moves back home , but I am in the
> Northeast where the winters are miserable and the cold further aggravates
> her conditions. How does she continue to survive - at least until the
> spring - where she is now?
>
>
First, buy her a plane ticket to get her home. I'd suggest a bus or train ticket (cheaper), but with multiple medical conditions, the travel time needs to be as short as possible. Since she can't work, the weather where you (and I) live is not a serious consideration. She can stay home 24/7 until the weather improves. If you can't afford to heat the whole house 24/7, you can get your daughter a space heater for whatever room she wants to settle down in.
As for a long-term plan, I'd suggest you resign yourself to your daughter living at home at least until the social security disability kicks in.
AFTER she's set up at home, she should research social security disability. I believe I read somewhere (could be wrong) that it is retroactive to the time she applied for it. In other words, when it is approved, she might be due a large lump-sum payment to cover the last year or so that she was waiting. So she might find a lawyer or some other firm to front her money IF they believe that she will eventually get it. If it's true that SS disability is retroactive. Double-check that.
As for medical costs, there are some doctors (a few) who refuse to participate in the insurance ripoff scam, and run their offices on a cash ONLY basis. If you can find one, you will save a ton of money, seeing as you are going to be paying for your daughter's medical costs one way or the other. The way it works is, if the doctor would normally charge say, $250 for a visit (billed partly to insurance), that doctor will instead charge say, $50, CASH ONLY, due at the time of the appointment. So looking at it from the patient's point of view, this is a huge savings. Instead of paying several hundred (or thousand) dollars a MONTH for medical insurance, and then having to pay a copayment and a percentage of the bill on top of that, your cost is just the $50. And with Walmart, Target, and many drug store and supermarket chains offering common prescriptions for about $5/month, or about $10/3 months now, you MIGHT be able to get by OK covering your daughter's medical costs out of pocket for a while. If some of her prescriptions are oddball, work with your doctor and your pharmacist to see if there are cheaper meds that might work as well.
There's no easy solution, but the only reasonable first step is to get your daughter home ASAP. Good luck, -Dave
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