http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en
misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com
Today's topics:
* Review: "How To Live Well Without Owning a Car - Save Money, Breathe Easier,
and Get More Mileage Out of Life" by Chris Balish - 5 messages, 4 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/dff28f482d02ae5c?hl=en
* free traffic - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/2158820c92365f5c?hl=en
* In what way are you LEAST frugal? - 4 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/18003f4ff7c65165?hl=en
* Guess Who Wants To Continue FLEECING You With OVERDRAFT "Protection"? The U.
S. Repug Empire! - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/bb65b39a2eee320a?hl=en
* U.S. government to steal one hour - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/66bbefd054bc4339?hl=en
* Duped Old Shits Advised To BEWARE RETIREMENT "COMMUNITIES" -- They're Not
What You're Cracked-Up To Expect! - 3 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/5e739c20860f7bad?hl=en
* Frugal Carpet Cleaning Solution For Steam Cleaners? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/514d24c73ddda3cf?hl=en
* List of product recalls - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/01007c42a9d4c90d?hl=en
* ∵Paypal Paymen∴www.wholesale789.com sell cheap nike jordan 1-25 shoes,louis
vuitton fendi coach handbags,air max ltd tn 90 shoes - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/0fa616c8ef1a54bc?hl=en
* DC to AC to DC - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/5872826a6662376f?hl=en
* ★→Paypal Payment←★Cheap wholesale brand fashion AAA True Leather,Purses,
Handbag (LV,Coach,Gucci,Juicy,Miumiu,Dior,Bos-s,Prada,ED Hardy,D&G,Versace,
Burberry...) www.wholesale789.com - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/76945ab0b8ed35a8?hl=en
* Optin Profits - Very Useful for your business - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/8ddbe391a59253e1?hl=en
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Review: "How To Live Well Without Owning a Car - Save Money, Breathe
Easier, and Get More Mileage Out of Life" by Chris Balish
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/dff28f482d02ae5c?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 1 2009 12:01 am
From: terryc
On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 12:51:51 -0400, sr wrote:
> I think you must be a city dweller, totally insufficient for survival.
Not always the case. country dweller can become complacent and die as a
result. Some city dwellers research and get prepared and survive.
== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 1 2009 1:25 am
From: "Rod Speed"
Phil W Lee wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Phil W Lee wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Scott in SoCal wrote
>>>>> Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.net> wrote
>>>>>> Scott in SoCal wrote
>>>>>>> Marsha <mas@xeb.net> wrote
>>>>>>>> Kayak44 wrote
>>>>>>>>> He's not smug, he's just saying what everyone knows is true
>>>>>>>>> but doesn't want to hear.
>>>>>>>>> I went for a few years with no car and winters here are just as
>>>>>>>>> bad as anywhere else. Sure, it was difficult but not impossible.
>>>>>>>>> Excuses are just that, excuses.
>>>>>>>>> I own a small SUV now because I'm selfish, don't like to be
>>>>>>>>> inconvenienced and can afford it, but at least I'm honest about it.
>>>>>>>> You are cordially invited to my neck of the woods, where I
>>>>>>>> would have to go a few miles just to catch a bus. And the
>>>>>>>> route I would have to take - no thanks. I would need a
>>>>>>>> concealed carry permit just to feel half-way safe. He is
>>>>>>>> being smug, whether you want to admit it or not. Public
>>>>>>>> transportation is not an option for everyone, no matter how
>>>>>>>> you slice it.
>>>>>>> Where you live is a lifestyle choice, no matter how you slice it.
>>>>>> It is generally dictated by income.
>>>>> Even then you still have choices.
>>>> Yes, but not necessarily any with viable public transport,
>>>> particularly if you decide to own and not rent.
>>>>>>> If you chose to make access to transit a priority you could do it,
>>>>>> In New York city*, it is well known that identical quarters two
>>>>>> blocks closer to public transport will be higher in price. What
>>>>>> the automobile does is allow people to substitute for public
>>>>>> transport, which is expensive because it's subsidized.
>>>>> Transit only *seems* more expensive because
>>>>> it is subsidized LESS than automobiles are.
>>>> Wrong. There are plenty of situations where the cheapest
>>>> cars are cheaper than the worst mass transit available
>>>> and the cheapest cars arent subsidized by anyone.
>>> So you use them exclusively on private roads?
>> Corse not.
>>> If not, you are getting a subsidy.
>> Nope, the roads I do use them on are paid for by the taxes I pay.
> And by the taxes of those who do not use them.
FAR less of the taxes of those who do not use them.
>>> That is even without reckoning the cost of the
>>> wars waged so that you can enjoy cheap fuel.
>> I pay for those wars out of the taxes I pay too.
> You must pay a lot of tax, if you fund all that by yourself.
Never said a word about by myself.
Since the absolute vast bulk of those who pay tax do use automobiles,
it follows that those pay the vast bulk of the taxes that pay for those wars.
In fact is mostly the less well paid dregs that use public transport,
and so they pay much less of the taxes that do pay for those wars.
>>>>>> So what's really required is a wee bit of economic analysis.
>>>>> A true analysis is impossible until you can either remove ALL
>>>>> subsidies on ALL modes of transport, or at least identify and
>>>>> account for ALL of them.
>>>> Thats just plain wrong too, most obviously when the subsidy is so
>>>> small that it becomes irrelevant.
>>>>> With the convoluted system of taxes and fund raiding
>>>>> that goes on this is basically an impossible task.
>>>> Yes, but isnt actually necessary with the smallest subsidys.
>>> I think you'll find that both of the subsidies I've mentioned exceed
>>> the cost of the car
>> Yes, but I pay for that with the tax I pay, so no subsidy.
> You clearly have little idea of how that works
Its clearly you that doesnt have a clue how that works.
> - would you get a rebate if you didn't use those roads?
It aint the rebates that matter.
>>> - hardly "the smallest subsidys (sic)".
>> I JUST said the smallest subsidys dont need to be calculated.
>> And your (sic) cuts no mustard either, I choose
>> to spell that way. You get to like that or lump it.
> You choose to understand it so poorly that you can't even spell it.
Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 1 2009 7:18 am
From: "h"
"Marioneta del Calcetin" <calcetin867@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6f1pe5d20evhkc5dd4tlf41nc23ieateen@4ax.com...
> Last time on misc.consumers, "h" <tmclone@searchmachine.com> said:
>
>>Heh. He thinks I couldn't have PLONKed him because I use GoogleGroups?
>>Yeah,
>>that would be true if I didn't use AIOE to READ all newsgroups 99% of the
>>time.
>
> SUUUUURE you do. Of course you didn't just sign up for aioe yesterday
> because you got OWNED, right? Oh no, that couldn't possibly be it.
Umm, no. It's not possible to read newsgroups without a filter for Rod Speed
and others of his ilk. Like you.
== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 1 2009 7:51 am
From: Phil W Lee
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> considered Sun, 1 Nov 2009
19:25:11 +1100 the perfect time to write:
>Phil W Lee wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Phil W Lee wrote
>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> Scott in SoCal wrote
>>>>>> Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.net> wrote
>>>>>>> Scott in SoCal wrote
>>>>>>>> Marsha <mas@xeb.net> wrote
>>>>>>>>> Kayak44 wrote
>
>>>>>>>>>> He's not smug, he's just saying what everyone knows is true
>>>>>>>>>> but doesn't want to hear.
>
>>>>>>>>>> I went for a few years with no car and winters here are just as
>>>>>>>>>> bad as anywhere else. Sure, it was difficult but not impossible.
>
>>>>>>>>>> Excuses are just that, excuses.
>
>>>>>>>>>> I own a small SUV now because I'm selfish, don't like to be
>>>>>>>>>> inconvenienced and can afford it, but at least I'm honest about it.
>
>>>>>>>>> You are cordially invited to my neck of the woods, where I
>>>>>>>>> would have to go a few miles just to catch a bus. And the
>>>>>>>>> route I would have to take - no thanks. I would need a
>>>>>>>>> concealed carry permit just to feel half-way safe. He is
>>>>>>>>> being smug, whether you want to admit it or not. Public
>>>>>>>>> transportation is not an option for everyone, no matter how
>>>>>>>>> you slice it.
>
>>>>>>>> Where you live is a lifestyle choice, no matter how you slice it.
>
>>>>>>> It is generally dictated by income.
>
>>>>>> Even then you still have choices.
>
>>>>> Yes, but not necessarily any with viable public transport,
>>>>> particularly if you decide to own and not rent.
>
>>>>>>>> If you chose to make access to transit a priority you could do it,
>
>>>>>>> In New York city*, it is well known that identical quarters two
>>>>>>> blocks closer to public transport will be higher in price. What
>>>>>>> the automobile does is allow people to substitute for public
>>>>>>> transport, which is expensive because it's subsidized.
>
>>>>>> Transit only *seems* more expensive because
>>>>>> it is subsidized LESS than automobiles are.
>
>>>>> Wrong. There are plenty of situations where the cheapest
>>>>> cars are cheaper than the worst mass transit available
>>>>> and the cheapest cars arent subsidized by anyone.
>
>>>> So you use them exclusively on private roads?
>
>>> Corse not.
>
>>>> If not, you are getting a subsidy.
>
>>> Nope, the roads I do use them on are paid for by the taxes I pay.
>
>> And by the taxes of those who do not use them.
>
>FAR less of the taxes of those who do not use them.
>
>>>> That is even without reckoning the cost of the
>>>> wars waged so that you can enjoy cheap fuel.
>
>>> I pay for those wars out of the taxes I pay too.
>
>> You must pay a lot of tax, if you fund all that by yourself.
>
>Never said a word about by myself.
>
>Since the absolute vast bulk of those who pay tax do use automobiles,
>it follows that those pay the vast bulk of the taxes that pay for those wars.
>
>In fact is mostly the less well paid dregs that use public transport,
>and so they pay much less of the taxes that do pay for those wars.
Ah yes, less well paid = dregs.
Such a rational argument.
Particularly in a country where just being unlucky enough to be ill
can turn you into a dreg.
Do you have any other prejudices you'd like to air, or do you think
you've made enough of a prat of yourself already?
>
>>>>>>> So what's really required is a wee bit of economic analysis.
>
>>>>>> A true analysis is impossible until you can either remove ALL
>>>>>> subsidies on ALL modes of transport, or at least identify and
>>>>>> account for ALL of them.
>
>>>>> Thats just plain wrong too, most obviously when the subsidy is so
>>>>> small that it becomes irrelevant.
>
>>>>>> With the convoluted system of taxes and fund raiding
>>>>>> that goes on this is basically an impossible task.
>
>>>>> Yes, but isnt actually necessary with the smallest subsidys.
>
>>>> I think you'll find that both of the subsidies I've mentioned exceed
>>>> the cost of the car
>
>>> Yes, but I pay for that with the tax I pay, so no subsidy.
>
>> You clearly have little idea of how that works
>
>Its clearly you that doesnt have a clue how that works.
Go on then, tell us all about hypothecation.
Do you think people should be stopped from driving if their tax
contribution falls below any particular level?
>
>> - would you get a rebate if you didn't use those roads?
>
>It aint the rebates that matter.
>
>>>> - hardly "the smallest subsidys (sic)".
>
>>> I JUST said the smallest subsidys dont need to be calculated.
>
>>> And your (sic) cuts no mustard either, I choose
>>> to spell that way. You get to like that or lump it.
>
>> You choose to understand it so poorly that you can't even spell it.
>
>Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
>
Evidently.
Look forward to becoming a dreg when your employer discovers your
tenuous grasp on reality.
== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 1 2009 9:19 am
From: "Rod Speed"
Phil W Lee wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Phil W Lee wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Phil W Lee wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>> Scott in SoCal wrote
>>>>>>> Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.net> wrote
>>>>>>>> Scott in SoCal wrote
>>>>>>>>> Marsha <mas@xeb.net> wrote
>>>>>>>>>> Kayak44 wrote
>>>>>>>>>>> He's not smug, he's just saying what everyone knows is true
>>>>>>>>>>> but doesn't want to hear.
>>>>>>>>>>> I went for a few years with no car and winters here are
>>>>>>>>>>> just as bad as anywhere else. Sure, it was difficult but
>>>>>>>>>>> not impossible.
>>>>>>>>>>> Excuses are just that, excuses.
>>>>>>>>>>> I own a small SUV now because I'm selfish, don't like to be
>>>>>>>>>>> inconvenienced and can afford it, but at least I'm honest about it.
>>>>>>>>>> You are cordially invited to my neck of the woods, where I
>>>>>>>>>> would have to go a few miles just to catch a bus. And the
>>>>>>>>>> route I would have to take - no thanks. I would need a
>>>>>>>>>> concealed carry permit just to feel half-way safe. He is
>>>>>>>>>> being smug, whether you want to admit it or not. Public
>>>>>>>>>> transportation is not an option for everyone, no matter how
>>>>>>>>>> you slice it.
>>>>>>>>> Where you live is a lifestyle choice, no matter how you slice it.
>>>>>>>> It is generally dictated by income.
>>>>>>> Even then you still have choices.
>>>>>> Yes, but not necessarily any with viable public transport,
>>>>>> particularly if you decide to own and not rent.
>>>>>>>>> If you chose to make access to transit a priority you could do it,
>>>>>>>> In New York city*, it is well known that identical quarters two
>>>>>>>> blocks closer to public transport will be higher in price. What
>>>>>>>> the automobile does is allow people to substitute for public
>>>>>>>> transport, which is expensive because it's subsidized.
>>>>>>> Transit only *seems* more expensive because
>>>>>>> it is subsidized LESS than automobiles are.
>>>>>> Wrong. There are plenty of situations where the cheapest
>>>>>> cars are cheaper than the worst mass transit available
>>>>>> and the cheapest cars arent subsidized by anyone.
>>>>> So you use them exclusively on private roads?
>>>> Corse not.
>>>>> If not, you are getting a subsidy.
>>>> Nope, the roads I do use them on are paid for by the taxes I pay.
>>> And by the taxes of those who do not use them.
>> FAR less of the taxes of those who do not use them.
>>>>> That is even without reckoning the cost of the
>>>>> wars waged so that you can enjoy cheap fuel.
>>>> I pay for those wars out of the taxes I pay too.
>>> You must pay a lot of tax, if you fund all that by yourself.
>> Never said a word about by myself.
>> Since the absolute vast bulk of those who pay tax do use automobiles,
>> it follows that those pay the vast bulk of the taxes that pay for those wars.
>> In fact is mostly the less well paid dregs that use public transport,
>> and so they pay much less of the taxes that do pay for those wars.
> Ah yes, less well paid = dregs.
Never said that, you silly little pathological liar.
> Such a rational argument.
Your lies in spades.
> Particularly in a country where just being unlucky
> enough to be ill can turn you into a dreg.
In fact the absolute vast bulk of that 'illness' is self inflicted and nothing whatever to do with luck.
> Do you have any other prejudices you'd like to air, or do
> you think you've made enough of a prat of yourself already?
Never ever could bullshit and lie its way out of a wet paper bag.
>>>>>>>> So what's really required is a wee bit of economic analysis.
>>>>>>> A true analysis is impossible until you can either remove ALL
>>>>>>> subsidies on ALL modes of transport, or at least identify and
>>>>>>> account for ALL of them.
>>>>>> Thats just plain wrong too, most obviously when
>>>>>> the subsidy is so small that it becomes irrelevant.
>>>>>>> With the convoluted system of taxes and fund raiding
>>>>>>> that goes on this is basically an impossible task.
>>>>>> Yes, but isnt actually necessary with the smallest subsidys.
>>>>> I think you'll find that both of the subsidies I've mentioned
>>>>> exceed the cost of the car
>>>> Yes, but I pay for that with the tax I pay, so no subsidy.
>>> You clearly have little idea of how that works
>> Its clearly you that doesnt have a clue how that works.
> Go on then, tell us all about hypothecation.
Just how many of you are there between those ears, wanker ?
> Do you think people should be stopped from driving
> if their tax contribution falls below any particular level?
Nope.
>>> - would you get a rebate if you didn't use those roads?
>> It aint the rebates that matter.
>>>>> - hardly "the smallest subsidys (sic)".
>>>> I JUST said the smallest subsidys dont need to be calculated.
>>>> And your (sic) cuts no mustard either, I choose
>>>> to spell that way. You get to like that or lump it.
>>> You choose to understand it so poorly that you can't even spell it.
>> Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
> Evidently.
Pathetic.
> Look forward to becoming a dreg when your employer discovers your tenuous grasp on reality.
Taint gunna happen.
Look forward to you getting run over any day now.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: free traffic
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/2158820c92365f5c?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 1 2009 1:28 am
From: Waleed
After having announced a slew of hardware updates in the last week,
the company with the plan, Apple, has moved on to software updates by
introducing the http://globalzone4u.com/home/
==============================================================================
TOPIC: In what way are you LEAST frugal?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/18003f4ff7c65165?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 1 2009 5:03 am
From: Rally2xs
On Oct 31, 10:47 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rally2xs wrote
> What is driving SOME jobs overseas is the fact that americans
> are paid a hell of a lot more than what is paid to the lowest paid
> workers in places like china and no change to the US tax system
> will ever do a damned thing about that massive difference.
It takes 30 - 33 hours of labor to construct 1 automobile. If the
workers are getting $100 an hour, that's still only $3,000 - $3,300 of
the price of the car. For a $25,000 Jeep Liberty, built in Toledo,
Ohio, removing the corporate income tax embedded in its price would
make the price of that Jeep to be $19,500. That's because there's 22%
of the price that just goes for paying the income tax on the Jeep
manufacturer and its suppliers and the share of the employees' social
security and medicare taxes. IOW, you could pay Jeep's employees $0
an hour, and still not lower the price of the Jeep as much as getting
rid of the corporate income tax would.
> > That is, unless you want to use the tax system to really stick it to the rich.
>
> That doesnt work either, they just move their money out of the
> country and that fucks employment very comprehensively indeed.
Congratulations. You finally got something right. It's why there's
$10 - $15 trillion that is currently hidden overseas, and would come
rushing back into the country if the income tax went away.
> Your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax wont get manufacturing jobs back from china,
> essentially because the chinese are paid vastly less than the US minimum wage.
Labor is no longer a big enough component of the price of things to
control where they're manufactured. Its the taxes that are doing that
now, specifically our income taxes, that drive corporations'
manufacturing operations overseas.
> > so a family of 4 making $52,000 only pays
> > 1/2 thefair taxrate, effectively, as a maximum.
>
> Which is a hell of a lot more than those on that income currently pay in income tax.
Untrue.
Under the fair tax, prices for items built, grown, or mined in the USA
would rise only by about 1 percent. If the family of 4 makes $52,000
and spends every penny of it on new merchandise, that's only $520. By
contrast, the income tax, in the form of the social security tax and
the medicare tax, is a combined 7.65%, or $3,978. But getting back to
the $520 that the family of 4 pays in additional expenses over today's
prices, they're still getting the prebate of $5,980 / year, so yeah,
they're waaaaay ahead of the income tax.
> > Just don't expect 'em to "retrain" to do prostate specific
> > antigen tests in a laboratory, 'cuz it ain't gonna happen.
>
> Dont need to. The unemployment rate bottomed at 4.x% with an
> immense legal and illegal immigration rate just before the clowns
> completely imploded the entire world financial system, AGAIN.
The unemployment rate doesn't tell the story. Some guy working for
$7 / hr for some plumbing business in Podunk, Anystate is "employed"
but he sure as hell isn't prosperous. He's just employed. Doesn't
compare even a little bit with a guy making $30 an hour building cars.
> > That's just not who they are.
>
> Plenty of other work they can do.
And it all pays crap wages.
> A hell of a lot more of them would grow their own food, because
> your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax would not tax that food at all.
Not anyone in NYC that only has asphalt and concrete for "soil."
There's LOTS of city dwellers now, compared to the 30's during the
depression, when the economy had a large agrarian component.
> Pig ignorant lie. The unemployment rate bottom at 4.x% with an
> immense legal and illegal immigration rate just before the clowns
> completely imploded the entire world financial system, AGAIN,
> and thats the main determinant of prosperity, having a job.
There you go with the unemployment rate again. Just because someone
is employed doesn't mean they're prosperous. The really good jobs are
mostly only things that you have to go to college for. Lotsa people
can't get much benefit from going to college. They therefore are not
prosperous, most of 'em. We need to change that. The Fair Tax would
change that.
> > The last big thing that allowed Americans to earn a big income was
> > the software development that went overseas about 10 years ago.
>
> Another bare faced pig ignorant lie. Huge numbers of professionals
> have very high incomes, most obviously with doctors, lawyers,
> bankers etc etc etc and fuck all of that ever left the country.
Yep, they can't be outsourced. They just have H1b visa holders come
into this country and take their jobs. Why? Because H1b visa holders
aren't required to pay the 7.65%, highly regressive social security
and medicare taxes. IOW, it pays for employers here to hire
foreigners rather than American citizens because of the income tax
break.
> > Go to your Borders Bookstore or Barnes and Noble books.
> > Find the computer section. Pitiful, isn't it?
>
> Because we need fuck all in the way of new PC software
> and real programmers dont need books from Borders
> Bookstore or Barnes and Noble to write software.
Wrong. I am a programmer, and that is exactly where I buy my books,
if they have them. I now need to go to Amazon to get most of them,
'cuz Borders doesn't have most of what I'm after. Only reason I'm an
American citizen who is a programmer is because the stuff I work with
has "Secret" stamped all over it, so they CAN'T send it to India.
Otherwise, I'm sure I'd be forced into the Wal Mart job that lots of
the rest of the programmers who lost theirs had to accept, at crap
wages.
> > There AREN'T any big-paying jobs even for the
> > intellectually elite, unles they've got a masters or better.
>
> Another bare faced pig ignorant lie, most obviously with doctors,
> lawyers, bankers, CEOs, the best salesmen, etc etc etc.
Most of those have a Masters degree, or better.
> > Back in the 60's, a man could be prosperous all by himself while working
> > a factory job, supporting his family while his wife stayed home.
>
> Still can with non factory jobs that pay the same amount.
Those jobs are largely vaporware.
== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 1 2009 9:06 am
From: "Rod Speed"
Rally2xs wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
>> Rally2xs wrote
>> What is driving SOME jobs overseas is the fact that americans
>> are paid a hell of a lot more than what is paid to the lowest paid
>> workers in places like china and no change to the US tax system
>> will ever do a damned thing about that massive difference.
> It takes 30 - 33 hours of labor to construct 1 automobile.
That number is straight from your arse, we can tell from the smell.
Makes a massive difference how automated the car plant is.
> If the workers are getting $100 an hour,
The total cost of US labor is a hell of a lot more than that.
> that's still only $3,000 - $3,300 of the price of the car.
Thats still a massive difference in the price of particularly the cheapest cars.
> For a $25,000 Jeep Liberty, built in Toledo, Ohio,
> removing the corporate income tax embedded in its
> price would make the price of that Jeep to be $19,500.
That number is straight from your arse, we can tell from the smell.
When so many auto manufactureres arent even making a profit, there
wont be any drop whatever with the elimination of corporate income tax.
> That's because there's 22% of the price that just goes for paying
> the income tax on the Jeep manufacturer and its suppliers
That number is straight from your arse, we can tell from the smell.
> and the share of the employees' social security and medicare taxes.
You cant count those. Your Grossly Unfair Tax is JUST
eliminating income tax not those other taxes as well.
> IOW, you could pay Jeep's employees $0 an hour,
> and still not lower the price of the Jeep as much
> as getting rid of the corporate income tax would.
Another lie.
And it still wouldnt get jobs back from Japan anyway, because they
produce a hell of a lot better cars than US manufacturers do anyway.
>>> That is, unless you want to use the tax system to really stick it to the rich.
>> That doesnt work either, they just move their money out of the
>> country and that fucks employment very comprehensively indeed.
> Congratulations. You finally got something right.
You've never ever managed anything like that. You cant even get the name of your tax right.
> It's why there's $10 - $15 trillion that is currently hidden overseas, and
> would come rushing back into the country if the income tax went away.
Pigs arse it would. It would stay where it is because the US economy
would be completely fucked by your Grossly Unfair Tax, because of the
massive effect it would have on the sales of cars and houses etc etc etc,
areas where there is already a massive problem economically.
>> Your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax wont get manufacturing
>> jobs back from china, essentially because the chinese
>> are paid vastly less than the US minimum wage.
> Labor is no longer a big enough component of the
> price of things to control where they're manufactured.
Is that right ? So the manufacturing of low cost consumer goods
moved to China just so we could end up dead from the lack of
quality control and fraud involved in the manufacturing there eh ?
Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have
never ever had a fucking clue about anything at all, ever.
> Its the taxes that are doing that now, specifically our income
> taxes, that drive corporations' manufacturing operations overseas.
That cant be the problem with the auto industry, fool.
They aint paying any income tax, because they aint makin a profit, fool.
>>> so a family of 4 making $52,000 only pays
>>> 1/2 thefair taxrate, effectively, as a maximum.
>> Which is a hell of a lot more than those on that income currently pay in income tax.
> Untrue.
True.
> Under the fair tax, prices for items built, grown, or
> mined in the USA would rise only by about 1 percent.
That number is straight from your arse, we can tell from the smell.
That cant happen with a your Grossly Unfair Tax which would need
to be at atleast 50% to be revenue neutral given the massive
damage it would do to the sales of cars and houses etc etc etc.
> If the family of 4 makes $52,000 and spends every
> penny of it on new merchandise, that's only $520.
It would actually be $26K+, fool.
> By contrast, the income tax, in the form of
> the social security tax and the medicare tax,
You cant count those, they aint replaced by your Grossly Unfair Tax.
> is a combined 7.65%, or $3,978.
Pity about the $26K+ which is the real figure.
> But getting back to the $520 that the family of 4
> pays in additional expenses over today's prices,
Pity its actually $26K+
> they're still getting the prebate of $5,980 / year,
> so yeah, they're waaaaay ahead of the income tax.
Like hell they are when the real number is $26K+
>>> Just don't expect 'em to "retrain" to do prostate specific
>>> antigen tests in a laboratory, 'cuz it ain't gonna happen.
>> Dont need to. The unemployment rate bottomed at 4.x% with an
>> immense legal and illegal immigration rate just before the clowns
>> completely imploded the entire world financial system, AGAIN.
> The unemployment rate doesn't tell the story.
Corse it does on that retraining question.
> Some guy working for $7 / hr for some plumbing business in Podunk,
> Anystate is "employed" but he sure as hell isn't prosperous.
Thats another pig ignorant lie.
> He's just employed. Doesn't compare even a little
> bit with a guy making $30 an hour building cars.
Fuck all of the workforce ever builds cars, fool.
Fuck all ever did even before Japan got involved.
>>> That's just not who they are.
>> Plenty of other work they can do.
> And it all pays crap wages.
Another bare faced lie.
>> A hell of a lot more of them would grow their own food, because
>> your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax would not tax that food at all.
> Not anyone in NYC that only has asphalt and concrete for "soil."
Wrong, as always. Its completely trivial to grow food in pots, fool.
> There's LOTS of city dwellers now, compared to the 30's during
> the depression, when the economy had a large agrarian component.
There's still plenty that can grow their own food if they want to.
>> Pig ignorant lie. The unemployment rate bottom at 4.x% with an
>> immense legal and illegal immigration rate just before the clowns
>> completely imploded the entire world financial system, AGAIN,
>> and thats the main determinant of prosperity, having a job.
> There you go with the unemployment rate again. Just because
> someone is employed doesn't mean they're prosperous.
They sure aint in poverty, fool.
> The really good jobs are mostly only things that you have to go to college for.
Another pig ignorant lie.
> Lotsa people can't get much benefit from going to college.
> They therefore are not prosperous, most of 'em.
Another pig ignorant lie. Hordes who ever went anywhere near college are prosperous, fool.
> We need to change that.
Nope,
> The Fair Tax would change that.
Yes, your Grossly Unfair Tax would completely fuck the economy.
In spades with the car and housing industrys. Two areas
where those who have never ever been anywhere near
college can currently be quite prosperous until fools like you
completely imploded the entire world financial system, AGAIN.
>>> The last big thing that allowed Americans to earn a big income was
>>> the software development that went overseas about 10 years ago.
>> Another bare faced pig ignorant lie. Huge numbers of professionals
>> have very high incomes, most obviously with doctors, lawyers,
>> bankers etc etc etc and fuck all of that ever left the country.
> Yep, they can't be outsourced. They just have H1b
> visa holders come into this country and take their jobs.
Easily stopped without fucking the tax system, fool.
> Why? Because H1b visa holders aren't required to pay the
> 7.65%, highly regressive social security and medicare taxes.
Fuck all doctors, lawyers, bankers are H1Bs, fool.
> IOW, it pays for employers here to hire foreigners rather
> than American citizens because of the income tax break.
Fuck all doctors, lawyers, bankers are H1Bs, fool.
>>> Go to your Borders Bookstore or Barnes and Noble
>>> books. Find the computer section. Pitiful, isn't it?
>> Because we need fuck all in the way of new PC software
>> and real programmers dont need books from Borders
>> Bookstore or Barnes and Noble to write software.
> Wrong.
Right.
> I am a programmer,
So am I.
> and that is exactly where I buy my books, if they have them.
You're a complete dud that needs those books ? No problem, we'll
flush you where you belong and get an H1B that doesnt need them.
THATS why those operations dont have those books
anymore, because NO ONE WAS BUYING THEM, fool.
> I now need to go to Amazon to get most of them,
> 'cuz Borders doesn't have most of what I'm after.
Hardly the end of civilisation as we know it.
> Only reason I'm an American citizen who is a programmer
> is because the stuff I work with has "Secret" stamped all
> over it, so they CAN'T send it to India.
Then they get to wear fools like you that need those books.
> Otherwise, I'm sure I'd be forced into the Wal Mart job that lots of the
> rest of the programmers who lost theirs had to accept, at crap wages.
And your Grossly Unfair Tax wont raise enough in federal taxes to pay you anymore,
so you will be out on your lard arse and even Walmart wont employ you because
sales of consumer goods will be completely fucked by your stupid Grossly Unfair Tax.
>>> There AREN'T any big-paying jobs even for the
>>> intellectually elite, unles they've got a masters or better.
>> Another bare faced pig ignorant lie, most obviously with doctors,
>> lawyers, bankers, CEOs, the best salesmen, etc etc etc.
> Most of those have a Masters degree, or better.
Pig ignorant lie.
>>> Back in the 60's, a man could be prosperous all by himself while
>>> working a factory job, supporting his family while his wife stayed home.
>> Still can with non factory jobs that pay the same amount.
> Those jobs are largely vaporware.
Pig ignorant lie.
== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 1 2009 10:59 am
From: Les Cargill
Rally2xs wrote:
> On Oct 31, 10:47 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Rally2xs wrote
<snip>
>
>
>>> Go to your Borders Bookstore or Barnes and Noble books.
>>> Find the computer section. Pitiful, isn't it?
>> Because we need fuck all in the way of new PC software
>> and real programmers dont need books from Borders
>> Bookstore or Barnes and Noble to write software.
>
> Wrong. I am a programmer, and that is exactly where I buy my books,
> if they have them. I now need to go to Amazon to get most of them,
> 'cuz Borders doesn't have most of what I'm after. Only reason I'm an
> American citizen who is a programmer is because the stuff I work with
> has "Secret" stamped all over it, so they CAN'T send it to India.
India is sucking exhaust right now. The Bangalore Bandit game
is not sustainable.
And in effect, you're charging your employer rent on a
security clearance :)
> Otherwise, I'm sure I'd be forced into the Wal Mart job that lots of
> the rest of the programmers who lost theirs had to accept, at crap
> wages.
>
No, things are actually picking up out there. People in industries
with good prospects for export are hiring. Defense spend my not last
much longer, though....
--
Les Cargill
== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 1 2009 10:55 am
From: Rally2xs
On Nov 1, 1:59 pm, Les Cargill <lcargil...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Rally2xs wrote:
> > On Oct 31, 10:47 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Rally2xs wrote
> <snip>
>
> >>> Go to your Borders Bookstore or Barnes and Noble books.
> >>> Find the computer section. Pitiful, isn't it?
> >> Because we need fuck all in the way of new PC software
> >> and real programmers dont need books from Borders
> >> Bookstore or Barnes and Noble to write software.
>
> > Wrong. I am a programmer, and that is exactly where I buy my books,
> > if they have them. I now need to go to Amazon to get most of them,
> > 'cuz Borders doesn't have most of what I'm after. Only reason I'm an
> > American citizen who is a programmer is because the stuff I work with
> > has "Secret" stamped all over it, so they CAN'T send it to India.
>
> India is sucking exhaust right now. The Bangalore Bandit game
> is not sustainable.
Nevertheless, programming in the USA is doing very poorly. Have to
watched the CNN Money website that lists the "best jobs"? In years
past, "programmer" would be right up near the top. Now it doesn't
even appear. When I got here (DC area) 13 years ago, the Washington
Post had a whole section of job ads that was about 10 pages thick, and
was all tech jobs. Now there is no such section. The programming
jobs may or may not be in Bangalore, but the significant diference is
that they are not _here._
> And in effect, you're charging your employer rent on a
> security clearance :)
I work directly for the US Navy. Even if the programming was all done
someplace else, we'd still have to test it. I can do that too... Not
nearly as satisfying, tho.
> > Otherwise, I'm sure I'd be forced into the Wal Mart job that lots of
> > the rest of the programmers who lost theirs had to accept, at crap
> > wages.
>
> No, things are actually picking up out there. People in industries
> with good prospects for export are hiring. Defense spend my not last
> much longer, though....
It can pick up a little, sputter a little, etc. and so forth, but the
cancer remains, and that cancer is the income tax. There is no
recovery, long-term, while the income tax bleeds our industries dry.
Without good paying jobs for all the people, which only manufacturing
can deliver, there won't be enough people with enough money to tax to
run the gov't. Therefore, the deficit spending will continue until
the Chinese, Japanese, and Europeans wake up and see what a
monumentally bad idea it is to loan us money. Then they will of
course stop. That will be the day of economic armageddon. The USA
will most likely spiral down into a Zimbabwe-like economy. At that
time, I expect the fair tax will be passed, and maybe it won't be too
late. But there will be massive economic devastation and a monumental
debt to deal with if it gets that far. Better to pass the Fair Tax
now, and become the manufacting center of the world again.
Dave Head
> --
> Les Cargill
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Guess Who Wants To Continue FLEECING You With OVERDRAFT "Protection"?
The U.S. Repug Empire!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/bb65b39a2eee320a?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 1 2009 5:08 am
From: spicpussy
Including of course your neighborhood bank branch.
But BARNEY FRANK, whom bigots and other ignorant parent-fuckers love
to hate, is as usual on the side of consumers.
Like it, or him, or not, Repug losers!
-----------------
"Frank says overdraft protection should be 'opt-in'"
By Jeff Plungis
Sunday, November 1, 2009
Bank overdraft fees as high as $39 on debit card transactions aren't
"favors" for consumers if they haven't asked for them, House Financial
Services Committee Chairman Barney Frank said.
"We wouldn't be in a situation where we're considering legislation if
you would have had an opt-in regime from the beginning," said Frank (D-
Mass.), addressing the banking industry at a hearing in Washington on
Friday. "Don't do people favors without asking them."
Overdraft programs allow consumers to make purchases even if there's
not enough money in their accounts. Lawmakers have criticized banks
for enrolling customers in the programs, and charging fees, without
their consent.
Legislation under consideration in the House would prohibit financial
companies from levying more than one overdraft fee per month or six
per year, according to Rep. Carolyn B. Maloney (D-N.Y.), who sponsored
the bill.
"It's not simply a question of how much money it is," Frank said.
"It's a sense that people's integrity and autonomy have been impaired
when you do this to them, and then you tell them you did it for them."
The House bill would make overdraft fees subject to the Truth in
Lending Act, requiring consumers' permission before enrolling them,
according a statement from Maloney. It would prohibit rearranging the
order in which transactions are posted, which can trigger an
overdraft. And it would require fees to be in proportion to the amount
overdrawn, so a $5 cup of coffee will not have a $35 fee, the
statement said.
Bills before both houses
Senate Banking Committee Chairman Christopher J. Dodd (D-Conn.)
introduced similar overdraft-fee legislation Oct. 19, saying that
"banks should not be trying to bolster their profits at the expense of
their customers."
Overdraft programs "maximize fees while jeopardizing the financial
stability" of customers, said Jean Ann Fox, director of financial
services at the Consumer Federation of America. Consumers don't apply
for them, and they're not warned at the point of sale when they're
about to incur a fee, Fox said. The median fee at the largest U.S.
banks is $35, Fox said.
"Rather than competing by offering lower costs and truly beneficial
overdraft products and services, many financial institutions are
hiding behind a smokescreen of misleading terms and opaque practices
that promote costly overdrafts," Fox said.
Rep. Spencer Bachus (R-Ala.) said he avoided overdraft fees with a
credit line and asked if many of the problems could be eased with
consumer education.
Ending overdraft protection and letting checks bounce would lead to
"infinitely worse" consequences for people who don't have sufficient
funds, Bachus said.
"I'm not sure people appreciate that," Bachus said. "For people short
on cash, it can land them in jail."
Fees related to overdrawn U.S. accounts may rise to $38.5 billion this
year from $36.7 billion in 2008, according to research firm Moebs
Services Inc. in Lake Bluff, Illinois.
Bankers group objects
The legislation would require retooling that would raise the cost of
checking accounts, said Nessa Feddis, vice president and senior
counsel at the American Bankers Association in Washington.
Consumers have come to expect payments to go through to "avoid
embarrassment and inconvenience," Feddis told the committee. Most
consumers can easily avoid the fees by keeping track of their
balances, she said.
Customers are shifting to debit transactions from credit cards as
credit lines have been lowered and banks have closed inactive
accounts. Debit cards will be used in 60.2 percent of purchases in
2010, or about $40 billion, up from 58.2 percent in 2008, according to
the Nilson Report, an industry newsletter in Carpinteria, Calif.
Banks are relying more than ever on overdraft-fee revenue, said Eric
Halperin, Washington director for the Center for Responsible Lending.
The average overdraft fee was $29 in 2007, up from $16.50 in 1997,
Halperin said. In 2004, about 80 percent of banks denied debit card
transactions for insufficient funds. Now, 80 percent approve the
purchases and charge a fee, he said.
Overdraft protection in its current form "is neither a courtesy nor a
privilege," said Jim Blaine, chief executive officer of the State
Employees' Credit Union of North Carolina.
"It is a loan -- a very, very expensive loan," Blaine said at the
hearing. "Despite claims by proponents to the contrary, overdraft
protection is never the best nor the fairest choice for an account
holder."
-- Bloomberg News
[Alexis Leondis and Peter Eichenbaum in New York contributed to this
report.]
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/30/AR2009103004194.html
==============================================================================
TOPIC: U.S. government to steal one hour
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/66bbefd054bc4339?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 1 2009 5:13 am
From: rocket scientist
In article <D69Hm.8248$Js.179@newsfe10.iad>,
"Annie Woughman" <anniewoughman@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Gary Heston" <gheston@hiwaay.net> wrote in message
> news:2eSdnbw-e7KDZ3HXnZ2dnUVZ_jGdnZ2d@posted.hiwaay2...
> > In article <georgespamk-E25934.16465331102009@news.isp.giganews.com>,
> > rocket scientist <georgespamk@toast.net> wrote:
> >>it's not fair. ;)
> >
> > They're only borrowing it for a few months; you'll get it back in
> > the spring.
> >
> >
> > Gary
> >
> You have that backwards. They borrowed it last spring and are giving it
> back now. You have an extra hour to sleep tonight.
yeah, but I'm up as usual to my own "clock". And I forgot to mention.
Some clocks don't like to be pushed backwards. esp. electric ones , ones
with motors and gears. better to unplug and wait and hour or so.
change the calendar to November too.
== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 1 2009 8:21 am
From: "Lou"
"Gary Heston" <gheston@hiwaay.net> wrote in message
news:2eSdnbw-e7KDZ3HXnZ2dnUVZ_jGdnZ2d@posted.hiwaay2...
> In article <georgespamk-E25934.16465331102009@news.isp.giganews.com>,
> rocket scientist <georgespamk@toast.net> wrote:
> >it's not fair. ;)
>
> They're only borrowing it for a few months; you'll get it back in
> the spring.
>
It's the other way around - at the end of October, we go back to standard
time. The hour gets "borrowed" in the spring, when we go from standard time
to daylight savings time.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Duped Old Shits Advised To BEWARE RETIREMENT "COMMUNITIES" -- They're
Not What You're Cracked-Up To Expect!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/5e739c20860f7bad?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 1 2009 5:21 am
From: Wanting
Don't bet on your Republican Party, AARP, or any other avaricious, for-
profit bunch of crooks to look beyond the money you plan to toss their
way.
-------------------------
"You're only as secure as the retirement home"
"For some seniors, investments in carefree living are not paying off"
By David S. Hilzenrath
Saturday, October 31, 2009
IS YOUR RETIREMENT SECURE? For some people who thought they had taken
care of everything, the answer may be riding on another question: Is
your retirement community secure?
Anne Bradt, 83, said she and fellow residents thought they had bought
themselves worry-free retirements when they pu t down hundreds of
thousands of dollars -- upwards of $900,000 each -- to move into
Sherburne Commons in Nantucket, Mass. Then, a year ago, the nonprofit
company that runs the place sought bankruptcy protection. Food service
was cut to one meal a day. Activities such as dance and music
disappeared, along with the activities director and other members of
the staff. Residents could still pull a cord if they needed emergency
help in the shower, but they would have to pay extra for the lifeline,
and the person answering the call would no longer be on the premises.
Bradt's life became caught up in a complex legal proceeding, with her
entire deposit at risk.
"It's been one year of absolute hell," Bradt said. "It's taken its
toll physically and mentally."
The recession and the real estate crisis have raised new concerns for
people who paid hundreds of thousands of dollars, as much money as it
might take to buy a home, just to enter retirement communities. The
deposits typically earn seniors the privilege of moving in; they do
not confer any ownership in the real estate, and they are in addition
to monthly fees that can total thousands of dollars.
In theory, residents can reclaim the money when they move out, or
their heirs can recoup it when they die. But the model can break down
when the communities' economic assumptions prove too optimistic.
The October bankruptcy filing of another firm -- Erickson Retirement
Communities, a major developer and manager of campuses for senior
citizens -- casts a spotlight on the risks.
Erickson has been a leader in the world of "continuing care retirement
communities" -- CCRCs -- which offer independent living, assisted
living and nursing home care. In the Washington area, Erickson
communities include Riderwood in Silver Spring and Greenspring in
Springfield. People move in while they are still able to live
independently, hoping it will be their last major move. One of the
main advantages is that seniors can stay in the same community as
their health deteriorates, and couples can avoid being separated in
their declining years.
For some Erickson residents, including early occupants of the Ashby
Ponds development in Ashburn, it may not work out that way. The weak
economy prompted Erickson to halt development of several projects
before completing the assisted-living or nursing facilities.
Erickson spokesman Mel Tansill wrote that the company's problems "have
no direct effect on . . . each resident's right to a refund."
Nonetheless, the company's decline has helped illuminate pitfalls that
were inherent in its approach.
Erickson promotes its deposits as "100% Refundable," with an asterisk
that points to the fine print. Sure enough, there's a catch:
Residents are not entitled to get their money back until management
lines up a new tenant for the apartment and the new tenant posts a
deposit.
If the demand for apartments at an Erickson community is weak, the
community may have an incentive to fill units that have never been
occupied before it finds a new tenant for yours. If you have to wait
for your money, you may not have access to the funds you would need to
move somewhere else. Instead of keeping deposits in the bank, an
Erickson contract says that the community will use them -- to finance
development, make repairs or repay someone else.
As of September, almost a third of the completed units were vacant at
Ashby Ponds, where, as of August, entrance deposits ranged from
$200,000 for a one-bedroom unit to $563,000 for a two-bedroom unit,
according to regulatory and court filings.
Even before Erickson's bankruptcy, the Senate's Special Committee on
Aging had asked the Government Accountability Office to study whether
CCRCs are adequately regulated.
"In effect, seniors choosing CCRCs today could be exchanging their
assets and income for nothing more than a promise," Chairman Herb Kohl
(D-Wis.) wrote in February.
Of course, entrusting your nest egg to a retirement community isn't
the only or easiest way to lose it. Putting money in real estate or
stocks can end badly, too.
But for residents of troubled communities outside the Erickson empire,
Kohl's concerns are hardly hypothetical.
In Northwest Washington, some residents of Ingleside at Rock Creek
thought the deposits they paid years ago under "life care contracts"
limited the fees they would have to pay for the rest of their lives,
according to family members. They were upset when, under financial
stress, Ingleside introduced new "ancillary" fees in January for items
such as incontinence care, protein supplements and injections.
Ingleside's trouble was that the cost of caring for its residents was
outstripping the fees they were paying. "There was a business model
here that wasn't sustainable," said Richard Woodard, chief operating
officer of the nonprofit.
Wendy Schaetzel, who helps coordinate an Ingleside families group,
said the ancillary charges added $955 to the February fee for her 93-
year-old mother, Imogen, bringing the total for the month to $4,040.
Schaetzel said her family was willing to pay more to support
Ingleside, but she added: "It's a very significant bite for a lot of
people."
In Mount Lebanon, Pa., residents of Covenant at South Hills saw their
deposits wiped out under a September bankruptcy court ruling. The
community, which had been sponsored by the Jewish organization B'nai
B'rith International, was sold to Concordia Lutheran Ministries.
The commonly held notion that residents will be repaid out of future
deposits "is quite frankly proving to be a dangerous presumption,"
said Concordia chief executive Keith Frndak. Residents of the Mount
Lebanon community were out of luck because in bankruptcy court their
claims ranked behind those of banks and bondholders, Frndak said.
Another casualty of the bankruptcy is the community's kosher kitchen,
but the new Lutheran owner has promised to make dietary
accommodations.
In Nantucket, a for-profit company is now preparing to buy Anne
Bradt's community in a deal that could require residents to settle for
smaller refunds than they were originally promised. Bradt's daughter-
in-law, Bethesda real estate developer Diane Tipton, says people would
do better to choose retirement communities where they can rent their
unit or buy it outright -- but not put down deposits that could
effectively lock them in while leaving them as unsecured creditors.
Erickson says its restructuring plan, which includes the sale of the
business, will enable it to resume building unfinished communities "as
the economy improves." In the meantime, Erickson offers recuperation
and nursing care in residents' apartments, spokesman Mel Tansill said
by e-mail.
Asked how long people have had to wait to get their deposits back,
Tansill replied, "Specific data is not readily available."
In an interview, Erickson chief executive Bruce R. Grindrod Jr. said
he was touring Erickson properties to assure residents that Erickson's
Chapter 11 filing would not affect their lifestyles or day-to-day
services.
The deposits are not actually Erickson's responsibility, Grindrod
said. Instead, refunding residents' money is the obligation of not-for-
profit companies that take ownership of the communities after they are
developed and then pay Erickson to manage them, Grindrod said. The
nonprofit companies are not in bankruptcy.
When it announced its bankruptcy filing, Erickson said in a news
release that the not-for-profit corporations are unaffiliated with
Erickson. Tax filings, however, indicate that directors of such
nonprofits and the national umbrella group for almost all of them --
National Senior Campuses Inc. -- share an address with Erickson. If
you call the number listed on an Internal Revenue Service filing for
National Senior Campuses, don't be surprised if an automated phone
system answers: "You have reached the corporate headquarters for
Erickson Retirement Communities."
The nonprofit status of the campuses has helped them borrow large sums
using tax-exempt bonds.
Historically, there have been limits to the independence that
community nonprofits have shown from the for-profit business. Tax
filings for nonprofits in the Washington area said some of their
officers were also officers of Erickson. Only one of the community
nonprofit boards under the National Senior Campuses umbrella solicited
competing bids when Erickson's management contract was up for renewal,
and that one stayed with Erickson, NSC Chairman Ronald E. Walker said.
To assert greater control, many of the nonprofits negotiated month-to-
month contracts with Erickson as the company's financial troubles
loomed, Walker said.
Erickson communities offer the possibility of financial aid for
residents who run out of money. For example, if residents deplete
their funds, Ashby Ponds Inc. will tap their deposits and then help
them remain at the community by cutting their monthly fees -- to "the
extent that it is financially feasible," an Ashby Ponds contract says.
Indeed, an Ashby Ponds filing with the IRS cites that policy as one of
the reasons the organization qualifies for a tax exemption.
"We have never forced anyone out due to an inability to pay," Walker
said.
Financial aid comes from "benevolent care" funds that collect
charitable contributions from residents and others, Walker and
Grindrod said. Residents have been encouraged to contribute in a
variety of ways, including donating their entrance deposits and naming
the fund as beneficiary of their life insurance policies.
"None of the Benevolent Care Funds at our communities has been
exhausted; there is no concern that they will be exhausted,"
Erickson's Tansill said in a written response to questions from The
Washington Post.
The annual report for Ashby Ponds said its benevolent care fund ended
2008 with $643 -- enough for about two days of nursing care for one
person at the average Erickson rate. Contributions from residents and
other fundraising efforts did not begin until this year, the report
said.
The latest annual report for Erickson's Greenspring community in
Springfield, which has been open for a decade, said its benevolent
care fund expended $722,995 in 2008 and ended the year with a zero
balance.
Asked for clarification, the Erickson spokesman said Greenspring's
board augmented the fund by dipping into the community's cash
reserves.
[Staff researchers Eddy Palanzo and Julie Tate contributed to this
report.]
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/30/AR2009103004219.html
== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 1 2009 5:39 am
From: GLOBALIST
Thanks for posting this. I hear radio ads all day long about these
cozy, nostalgic places, with beautiful gardens were you can stroll and
tasty meals like grandma used to make , while someone plays a banjo in
the back ground.
This is a true story...I was in a McDonalds early one morning
getting breakfast , when the seniors are hanging out. I heard a table
full of senior females , laughing their asses off, about a nearby home
called "LOVING CARE". They were aware that a mere 'name' ain't going
to get it.
It was always the 'threat' on Golden Girls to send Mom to SHADY
PINES.
== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 1 2009 9:12 am
From: "sr"
Don't bet on the Democrat party, the Repulican party, Businesses, or anyone,
other than yourself.
As Robert Reich, Sec. of Labor (D) said at Berkley , you are going to die!
"Wanting" <lilhornie@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9bb00699-8ae9-4727-bdd6-569bd074fd78@p9g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
> Don't bet on your Republican Party, AARP, or any other avaricious, for-
> profit bunch of crooks to look beyond the money you plan to toss their
> way.
>
> -------------------------
> "You're only as secure as the retirement home"
>
> "For some seniors, investments in carefree living are not paying off"
>
> By David S. Hilzenrath
> Saturday, October 31, 2009
>
>
>
> IS YOUR RETIREMENT SECURE? For some people who thought they had taken
> care of everything, the answer may be riding on another question: Is
> your retirement community secure?
>
> Anne Bradt, 83, said she and fellow residents thought they had bought
> themselves worry-free retirements when they pu t down hundreds of
> thousands of dollars -- upwards of $900,000 each -- to move into
> Sherburne Commons in Nantucket, Mass. Then, a year ago, the nonprofit
> company that runs the place sought bankruptcy protection. Food service
> was cut to one meal a day. Activities such as dance and music
> disappeared, along with the activities director and other members of
> the staff. Residents could still pull a cord if they needed emergency
> help in the shower, but they would have to pay extra for the lifeline,
> and the person answering the call would no longer be on the premises.
>
> Bradt's life became caught up in a complex legal proceeding, with her
> entire deposit at risk.
>
> "It's been one year of absolute hell," Bradt said. "It's taken its
> toll physically and mentally."
>
> The recession and the real estate crisis have raised new concerns for
> people who paid hundreds of thousands of dollars, as much money as it
> might take to buy a home, just to enter retirement communities. The
> deposits typically earn seniors the privilege of moving in; they do
> not confer any ownership in the real estate, and they are in addition
> to monthly fees that can total thousands of dollars.
>
> In theory, residents can reclaim the money when they move out, or
> their heirs can recoup it when they die. But the model can break down
> when the communities' economic assumptions prove too optimistic.
>
> The October bankruptcy filing of another firm -- Erickson Retirement
> Communities, a major developer and manager of campuses for senior
> citizens -- casts a spotlight on the risks.
>
> Erickson has been a leader in the world of "continuing care retirement
> communities" -- CCRCs -- which offer independent living, assisted
> living and nursing home care. In the Washington area, Erickson
> communities include Riderwood in Silver Spring and Greenspring in
> Springfield. People move in while they are still able to live
> independently, hoping it will be their last major move. One of the
> main advantages is that seniors can stay in the same community as
> their health deteriorates, and couples can avoid being separated in
> their declining years.
>
> For some Erickson residents, including early occupants of the Ashby
> Ponds development in Ashburn, it may not work out that way. The weak
> economy prompted Erickson to halt development of several projects
> before completing the assisted-living or nursing facilities.
>
> Erickson spokesman Mel Tansill wrote that the company's problems "have
> no direct effect on . . . each resident's right to a refund."
> Nonetheless, the company's decline has helped illuminate pitfalls that
> were inherent in its approach.
>
> Erickson promotes its deposits as "100% Refundable," with an asterisk
> that points to the fine print. Sure enough, there's a catch:
>
> Residents are not entitled to get their money back until management
> lines up a new tenant for the apartment and the new tenant posts a
> deposit.
>
> If the demand for apartments at an Erickson community is weak, the
> community may have an incentive to fill units that have never been
> occupied before it finds a new tenant for yours. If you have to wait
> for your money, you may not have access to the funds you would need to
> move somewhere else. Instead of keeping deposits in the bank, an
> Erickson contract says that the community will use them -- to finance
> development, make repairs or repay someone else.
>
> As of September, almost a third of the completed units were vacant at
> Ashby Ponds, where, as of August, entrance deposits ranged from
> $200,000 for a one-bedroom unit to $563,000 for a two-bedroom unit,
> according to regulatory and court filings.
>
> Even before Erickson's bankruptcy, the Senate's Special Committee on
> Aging had asked the Government Accountability Office to study whether
> CCRCs are adequately regulated.
>
> "In effect, seniors choosing CCRCs today could be exchanging their
> assets and income for nothing more than a promise," Chairman Herb Kohl
> (D-Wis.) wrote in February.
>
> Of course, entrusting your nest egg to a retirement community isn't
> the only or easiest way to lose it. Putting money in real estate or
> stocks can end badly, too.
>
> But for residents of troubled communities outside the Erickson empire,
> Kohl's concerns are hardly hypothetical.
>
> In Northwest Washington, some residents of Ingleside at Rock Creek
> thought the deposits they paid years ago under "life care contracts"
> limited the fees they would have to pay for the rest of their lives,
> according to family members. They were upset when, under financial
> stress, Ingleside introduced new "ancillary" fees in January for items
> such as incontinence care, protein supplements and injections.
>
> Ingleside's trouble was that the cost of caring for its residents was
> outstripping the fees they were paying. "There was a business model
> here that wasn't sustainable," said Richard Woodard, chief operating
> officer of the nonprofit.
>
> Wendy Schaetzel, who helps coordinate an Ingleside families group,
> said the ancillary charges added $955 to the February fee for her 93-
> year-old mother, Imogen, bringing the total for the month to $4,040.
> Schaetzel said her family was willing to pay more to support
> Ingleside, but she added: "It's a very significant bite for a lot of
> people."
>
> In Mount Lebanon, Pa., residents of Covenant at South Hills saw their
> deposits wiped out under a September bankruptcy court ruling. The
> community, which had been sponsored by the Jewish organization B'nai
> B'rith International, was sold to Concordia Lutheran Ministries.
>
> The commonly held notion that residents will be repaid out of future
> deposits "is quite frankly proving to be a dangerous presumption,"
> said Concordia chief executive Keith Frndak. Residents of the Mount
> Lebanon community were out of luck because in bankruptcy court their
> claims ranked behind those of banks and bondholders, Frndak said.
>
> Another casualty of the bankruptcy is the community's kosher kitchen,
> but the new Lutheran owner has promised to make dietary
> accommodations.
>
> In Nantucket, a for-profit company is now preparing to buy Anne
> Bradt's community in a deal that could require residents to settle for
> smaller refunds than they were originally promised. Bradt's daughter-
> in-law, Bethesda real estate developer Diane Tipton, says people would
> do better to choose retirement communities where they can rent their
> unit or buy it outright -- but not put down deposits that could
> effectively lock them in while leaving them as unsecured creditors.
>
> Erickson says its restructuring plan, which includes the sale of the
> business, will enable it to resume building unfinished communities "as
> the economy improves." In the meantime, Erickson offers recuperation
> and nursing care in residents' apartments, spokesman Mel Tansill said
> by e-mail.
>
> Asked how long people have had to wait to get their deposits back,
> Tansill replied, "Specific data is not readily available."
>
> In an interview, Erickson chief executive Bruce R. Grindrod Jr. said
> he was touring Erickson properties to assure residents that Erickson's
> Chapter 11 filing would not affect their lifestyles or day-to-day
> services.
>
> The deposits are not actually Erickson's responsibility, Grindrod
> said. Instead, refunding residents' money is the obligation of not-for-
> profit companies that take ownership of the communities after they are
> developed and then pay Erickson to manage them, Grindrod said. The
> nonprofit companies are not in bankruptcy.
>
> When it announced its bankruptcy filing, Erickson said in a news
> release that the not-for-profit corporations are unaffiliated with
> Erickson. Tax filings, however, indicate that directors of such
> nonprofits and the national umbrella group for almost all of them --
> National Senior Campuses Inc. -- share an address with Erickson. If
> you call the number listed on an Internal Revenue Service filing for
> National Senior Campuses, don't be surprised if an automated phone
> system answers: "You have reached the corporate headquarters for
> Erickson Retirement Communities."
>
> The nonprofit status of the campuses has helped them borrow large sums
> using tax-exempt bonds.
>
> Historically, there have been limits to the independence that
> community nonprofits have shown from the for-profit business. Tax
> filings for nonprofits in the Washington area said some of their
> officers were also officers of Erickson. Only one of the community
> nonprofit boards under the National Senior Campuses umbrella solicited
> competing bids when Erickson's management contract was up for renewal,
> and that one stayed with Erickson, NSC Chairman Ronald E. Walker said.
> To assert greater control, many of the nonprofits negotiated month-to-
> month contracts with Erickson as the company's financial troubles
> loomed, Walker said.
>
> Erickson communities offer the possibility of financial aid for
> residents who run out of money. For example, if residents deplete
> their funds, Ashby Ponds Inc. will tap their deposits and then help
> them remain at the community by cutting their monthly fees -- to "the
> extent that it is financially feasible," an Ashby Ponds contract says.
> Indeed, an Ashby Ponds filing with the IRS cites that policy as one of
> the reasons the organization qualifies for a tax exemption.
>
> "We have never forced anyone out due to an inability to pay," Walker
> said.
>
> Financial aid comes from "benevolent care" funds that collect
> charitable contributions from residents and others, Walker and
> Grindrod said. Residents have been encouraged to contribute in a
> variety of ways, including donating their entrance deposits and naming
> the fund as beneficiary of their life insurance policies.
>
> "None of the Benevolent Care Funds at our communities has been
> exhausted; there is no concern that they will be exhausted,"
> Erickson's Tansill said in a written response to questions from The
> Washington Post.
>
> The annual report for Ashby Ponds said its benevolent care fund ended
> 2008 with $643 -- enough for about two days of nursing care for one
> person at the average Erickson rate. Contributions from residents and
> other fundraising efforts did not begin until this year, the report
> said.
>
> The latest annual report for Erickson's Greenspring community in
> Springfield, which has been open for a decade, said its benevolent
> care fund expended $722,995 in 2008 and ended the year with a zero
> balance.
>
> Asked for clarification, the Erickson spokesman said Greenspring's
> board augmented the fund by dipping into the community's cash
> reserves.
>
> [Staff researchers Eddy Palanzo and Julie Tate contributed to this
> report.]
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/30/AR2009103004219.html
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Frugal Carpet Cleaning Solution For Steam Cleaners?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/514d24c73ddda3cf?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 1 2009 5:27 am
From: Dee
"Tiziano" <nospam@example.com> wrote in
news:hci7bl$o6s$1@news.eternal-september.org:
> I am planning on renting one of those RugDoctor carpet cleaners
> from Wal-Mart but would like to avoid purchasing their cleaning
> solution too...
>
> This site:
> http://frugalliving.about.com/od/householdsavings/qt/Carpet_Cleaner
> .htm recommends using equal parts of white vinegar and warm water
> in order to make some cheap carpet cleaning solution. Any
> comments on that? Other alternatives to white vinegar? (I am a
> little bit worried that white vinegar will stink up the whole
> carpet and place...)
>
> Thanks.
I use 1 Tbsp. of Tide to a gallon of boiling water in the tank. Works
well and doesn't suds up.
Dee
==============================================================================
TOPIC: List of product recalls
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/01007c42a9d4c90d?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 1 2009 5:43 am
From: Marsha
zeez wrote:
> Recall Roundup: Extra Scary Edition
> By Laura Northrup, 1:00 PM on Sat Oct 31 2009, 2,234 views
> Kroger Hazelnut Spread - undeclared peanuts
> Dove Caramel Pecan Perfection Ice Cream - undeclared peanuts
Unless I'm missing something, this is just stupid.
Marsha
==============================================================================
TOPIC: ∵Paypal Paymen∴www.wholesale789.com sell cheap nike jordan 1-25 shoes,
louis vuitton fendi coach handbags,air max ltd tn 90 shoes
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/0fa616c8ef1a54bc?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 1 2009 7:08 am
From: dsadasf
( www.wholesale789.com ) cheap wholesale Jordan Sneakers : nike
air jordan 1 nike air jordan 2 sneakers nike air jordan mens
sneakers
air jorda 2 womens sneakers nike air jordan 3 nike air jordan 4
nike air jordan 5 nike air jordan 6 nike air jordan 7 nike air
jordan 8 nike air jordan 9 nike air jordan 10 nike air jordan 11
nike air jordan 12 nike air jordan 13 nike air jordan 14 nike air
jordan 15 nike air jordan 16 nike air jordan 17 nike air jordan 18
nike air jordan 19 nike air jordan 20 nike air jordan 21 nike air
jordan 22 nike air jordan 23 Air Jordan Fusion nike air jordan 5 X
air force one fusion nike air jordan 12 x nike air force one fusion
Air Jordan Dub Zero Air jordan DMP Air Jordan BMP Air Jordan
Ol'School Air Jordan Spik'Ike Air Jordan Big size
( www.wholesale789.com ) cheap wholesale Nike Air Max Trainers :
Nike air max LTD Nike air max Tn Nike air max 87 Nike air max 90
Nike air max 90 360 Nike air max 91 Nike air max 95 Nike air max
95
360 Nike air max 97 Nike air max 97 360 Nike air max 180 nike air
max 360 Nike air max 2003 Nike air max 2004 Nike air max 2005
Nike
air max 2006 Nike air max 2007
( www.wholesale789.com ) cheap wholesale Nike Shox trainers Nike
Shox Nz Nike Shox Oz Nike Shox R2 Nike Shox R3 mens nike shox R3
women Nike Shox R4 mens nike shox R4 women Nike Shox R5 Nike Shox
TL 1 Nike Shox TL 2 Nike Shox TL 3 Nike Shox TL 4 Nike Shox TL 5
Nike Shox Monster Nike Shox Turob
( www.wholesale789.com ) cheap wholesale Nike Air Force Ones :
wholesale 25th anniversary nike air force ones mens sneakers
wholesale 25th anniversary nike air force ones womens shoes wholesale
Mid Cut nike air force ones wholesale light up nike air force ones
cheap wholesal Low Cut nike air force ones nike air force ones
womens
boots nike air force ones kids shoes
25th anniversary Nike Air Force One High-cut shoes
( www.wholesale789.com ) wholesale cheap Nike Dunk SB Sneakers
Nike Free trainers Nike Rift Australia UGG boot DSQUARED Men's
sneakers DOLCE&GABBANA Sneakers 4US mens shoes Gucci sneakers,shoes
Timberland Lacoste trainersPuma trainers Adidas trainers prada
sneakers Louis Vuitton shoes Bape Sta shoes Christian Dior
shoesArmani shoes Fendi shoes,boots Rocawear shoes Hogan shoes Evisu
shoes Burberry shoes Armani shoes Ice Cream shoes Nike Kobe Harache
Chanel
310 Motoring Hurricane Ed hardy shoes Christian Audigier shoes Mauri
mens shoes Versace shoes Coach shoesDiesel Greedy genius shoes
( www.wholesale789.com ) Nike Air Max 95 Supplier, Nike Air Max
97
Shoes Supplier. Supply Sale Store Distributor Manufacturer Running
Shoes Mens Womens
Shoes Wholesaler
==============================================================================
TOPIC: DC to AC to DC
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/5872826a6662376f?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 1 2009 7:38 am
From: gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston)
In article <20091101025513.1d35955c.noway@nohow.never>,
Dave C. <noway@nohow.never> wrote:
>> >
>> >For two laptops, get a 400W dual-outlet model. -Dave
>> FWIW, you can also get a driect to laptop car cord for somewhere
>> around $100 at the office supply stores.
>A 400W inverter costs less than that, and can be used for other stuff
>besides laptops. Oh, and you'd have to buy two of the $100 car cords
>to run two laptops. -Dave
Or charge one at a time.
For someone traveling, something like this might be handy:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=96157
A bit more than a basic inverter, but does more.
They have several inverters under $100 as well; I'd go for one with a
continuous rating at least twice the anticipated maximum load. Never
hurts to have the extra capacity, and doesn't stress the device as much.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=97047
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=66817
Gary
--
Gary Heston gheston@hiwaay.net http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/
"Where large, expensive pieces of exotic woods are converted to valueless,
hard to dispose of sawdust, chips and scraps." Charlie B.s' definition of
woodworking.
== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 1 2009 10:55 am
From: jeff
hchickpea@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 23:40:30 +0800, "Dave C." <noway@nohow.never>
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 21:51:33 -0500
>> jeff <jeff_thies@att.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm taking a long car trip with a friend and we want to take along
>>> our laptops. Now we don't have the DC chargers for them, but we of
>>> course have the line chargers.
>>>
>>> Anyone have any experience with running battery charger type
>>> devices off those cigarette lighter AC converters. I know the AC out
>>> of them is rough and I wonder if there was either anything to look
>>> out for in buying a DC to AC converter or if there was any risk to
>>> the electronics.
>>>
>>> Jeff
>> You'll be fine, as far as the laptops go. The laptops will work great,
>> they won't be damaged or anything. Hard part is finding a reliable
>> inverter. After several brands over many years, I've finally settled
>> on DieHard (Sears). They seem to be the only brand that I haven't
>> been able to kill (somehow) after a few months of daily use.
>>
>> You want to aim for a wattage rating approximately twice (or more) of
>> your anticipated maximum wattage needs. That's because inverters are
>> rated for maximum surge current, which they can not sustain reliably
>> for long-term use.
>>
>> For two laptops, get a 400W dual-outlet model. -Dave
>
> FWIW, you can also get a driect to laptop car cord for somewhere
> around $100 at the office supply stores.
I had a tough enough time find an AC charger (that wasn't a fortune
for my odd Lenovo plug) for my laptop when it died! I wish they'd do
some standardizing. Since my laptop requires 19v, seems like to would
need to be upconverted anyways. Maybe next laptop I'll try that.
My buddy is out shopping with the info from this thread, I'll see
what he comes back with.
Jeff
==============================================================================
TOPIC: ★→Paypal Payment←★Cheap wholesale brand fashion AAA True Leather,Purses,
Handbag (LV,Coach,Gucci,Juicy,Miumiu,Dior,Bos-s,Prada,ED Hardy,D&G,Versace,
Burberry...) www.wholesale789.com
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/76945ab0b8ed35a8?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 1 2009 8:43 am
From: dafdfadadf
Minimum order is one,factory price also!Paypal payment free
shipping,ship time will take 4-7 working days.
chloe handbag,Chloe paddington bag,lv handbag www.wholesale789.com
Chloe paddington bag,HERMES,MARC travel bag www.wholesale789.com
Wholesale Chloe handbag,Chloe purse,versace handbags.
Fendi handbag,Balenciaga handbag,LOEUE Handbags www.wholesale789.com
Replica handbag,replica chloe,JUICY,GUESS handbag wholesale.
Louis Vuitton handbag,LV purse,LV boot,LV shoes www.wholesale789.com
Gucci handbag,Gucci purse,Backpacks Luggage bags www.wholesale789.com
D&G handbag,D&G purse,Fendi handbag www.wholesale789.com
Laides'Fameion handbags,shopping bag www.wholesale789.com
Leather Brand MIUMIU,paper handbags www.wholesale789.com
VERSACA,tous,SIMTH,BOSS Handbag www.wholesale789.com
Designer handbags,mulberry bag www.wholesale789.com
Trolley Bags & Cases Travel Bags,Popular Handbag.
Coach purses and coach wallet,Authentic replica coach bag
www.wholesale789.com
Prada tote bag,plastic bag,gift bag www.wholesale789.com
Burberry Handbags,Christian Audigier Handbags www.wholesale789.com
Dooney&Bourke Handbags,ED Hardy Handbags www.wholesale789.com
Hermas Handbags,JIMMY CHOO Handbags www.wholesale789.com
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Optin Profits - Very Useful for your business
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/8ddbe391a59253e1?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 1 2009 10:16 am
From: bobon
Do you want a huge online income that grows every time you send a
simple email? Then let me show you...
Here is a breakdown of what the Optin Profit Course will teach you:
1. The Optin Profits Course
2. Step-By-Step Optin Profits Videos
3. Email Copywriting Secrets
4. Ewen Chia's Private Email Super Swipe File
5. Automated Email Copy Software
Readmore...
http://www.bobon-blog.blogspot.com
==============================================================================
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "misc.consumers.frugal-living"
group.
To post to this group, visit http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to misc.consumers.frugal-living+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
To change the way you get mail from this group, visit:
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/subscribe?hl=en
To report abuse, send email explaining the problem to abuse@googlegroups.com
==============================================================================
Google Groups: http://groups.google.com/?hl=en
No comments:
Post a Comment