http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en
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Today's topics:
* Delivered unsafe item damaged me - 17 messages, 9 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/3012e11d0875cc7d?hl=en
* DIY Pizza: Cheaper, Tastier, More Fun - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/613a0e6c1881d403?hl=en
* walking boots-- which are good? - 4 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/52b4735386145e8e?hl=en
* 7 Ways to Clean Your Shower on the Cheap - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/5b484d538453a006?hl=en
* Pay mortage payment before due date? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/3228aec93fd86575?hl=en
* Cutting down the cost of washing machine powder - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/3b767149103b33f0?hl=en
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Delivered unsafe item damaged me
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/3012e11d0875cc7d?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 17 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 21 2010 10:46 am
From: "Existential Angst"
"hr(bob) hofmann@att.net" <hrhofmann@att.net> wrote in message
news:a93f2f77-3984-4b3c-86dc-4f0497bb6c3a@g19g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 21, 9:12 am, "Existential Angst" <UNfit...@UNoptonline.net>
wrote:
> "john hamilton" <bluest...@mail.invalid> wrote in message
>
> news:hlrg0r$pl5$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Last friday I took delivery at home of pressed steel kitchen gas hob
> > from
> > a well known national department store.
>
> > After taking the top of the packaging off it, it then had to be lifted
> > out. There was nothing to get hold of apart from the gas tap knobs, but
> > I
> > did not want to pull it out using these.
>
> > So I put my fingers underneath and lifted, but then received three deep
> > cuts along the back of three fingers.
>
> > Being pressed steel the edges were razor sharp because thats how metal
> > is
> > if its been stamped and not finished off along the sheared edge with a
> > file.
>
> > This is annoying because this situation is likely to happen time and
> > time
> > again to other people. Because how I lifted it out is probably the way
> > everybody else would try to lift it out.
>
> > How can I be sure of getting the manufacturers to act to stop this
> > happening again. The company is an Italian one, but I purchased it from
> > a
> > U.K. store.
>
> > My collegue suggests I should request �100 to be sent to a charity,
> > since
> > having to pay money might make them actually make them take notice and
> > then carry out the extra work on these units to stop this repeatedly
> > happening.
>
> > Thanks for any advice on how best to get them to make a charitable
> > contribution.
>
> This is an interesting scenario. In the US, a group might or might not
> have
> luck litigating this.
> Sheeit, people have been awarded millions for coffee that was too hot, for
> a
> bug in a yogurt.
>
> Can you document any psychological trauma?
> If you can document any resulting ED or some such, not only can *you* sue,
> but your WIFE can sue as well, for loss of "conjugal privilege" or some
> shit.... No foolin....
>
> I saw a lawsuit for $10 mil for a slip/fall from a 75 y.o. lady who fell,
> and $5 mil from her hubby for the above loss....
> I said, Wow, dat old lady musta been some piece of......
> Which makes you wonder how a judge/jury might ascertain and verify said
> conjugal value of a particular spouse..... .hmmmm.....
>
> Related to your issue is how shit is packaged in the US -- objects are
> embalmed in thermo-molded plastic, so tough that you need *aviation snips*
> or an effing band saw to get the product out of the packaging.
> How fragile senior citizens cope with this is beyond me.
>
> The situtation is so bad that this issue even reached our CongressWhores!
> Altho clearly not high on their graft-taking agenda.... I can't cite the
> exact name of the bill, as I just read this in passing in a NYC newspaper.
>
> I have called up a mfr or two, and told them: Dudes, I can lift 150 lbs
> over my head, and run 5 miles.... and *I* can't open your fucking
> packages.... Just WHAT is the purpose to all this??? And at what
> expense???
>
> No rational response, of course, and how could there be, as the corporate
> policy-makers are so well-shielded from consumers. Venting at a customer
> rep just makes their already-miserable lives more miserable. Presumably if
> 50% of the customer base lodged complaints, the statistics would carry
> some
> weight, but don't hold yer breath..
>
> I believe that this thermoplastic is tough enough, sharp enough to slit
> someone's wrist, if they slip in their efforts.
>
> Ultimately, I believe this is just another deliberate slap in the
> consumer's
> face by CorPirate Merka.
> Fuck you, fuck me, fuck everyone, as long as everyone just pays and pays
> and
> pays....
>
> fwiw.
> --
> EA- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Your reply might make more sense to a non-USA person if you used a
little bit more polite language and regular names instead of swearing
continually.
=========================================
Well, I *did* use "conjugal privilege" -- give some credit, dude!!!
Usually, it's a lot worse.... but I'm taking more meds, experimenting more
with dosages, AND reconciling myself to the inexorable process of Global
Social Darwinism.....
Which would be a lot easier to reconcile if Social Darwinism was an "us vs
them" scenario....
But it is not, because when *so many* people fall by the wayside of
unnatural social selection, it affects *everyone*.
It's like being a Navy Seal in a stadium stampede -- all that skill and
training don't help much.
--
EA
== 2 of 17 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 21 2010 10:51 am
From: "Existential Angst"
"Doug Miller" <spambait@milmac.com> wrote in message
news:hlrqno$i1c$2@news.eternal-september.org...
> In article <hlrg0r$pl5$1@news.eternal-september.org>, "john hamilton"
> <bluestarx@mail.invalid> wrote:
>>Last friday I took delivery at home of pressed steel kitchen gas hob from
>>a
>>well known national department store.
>>
>>After taking the top of the packaging off it, it then had to be lifted
>>out.
>>There was nothing to get hold of apart from the gas tap knobs, but I did
>>not
>>want to pull it out using these.
>>
>>So I put my fingers underneath and lifted, but then received three deep
>>cuts
>>along the back of three fingers.
>
> Somehow, you managed to reach adulthood without learning that sheet metal
> objects sometimes have sharp edges.
>
> Somehow, you managed to reach adulthood without learning that one should
> wear
> gloves -- or at least use caution -- when handling objects with sharp
> edges.
>
> Somehow, you managed to reach adulthood without learning that it's unwise
> to
> stick your unprotected fingers (see point 2 above) into places you can't
> see,
> and wrap them around the edges of a sheet metal object that may have sharp
> edges (see point 1 above).
>
> Somehow, you managed to reach adulthood without learning the proper way to
> open a carton to remove its contents.
>
> Somehow, you managed to reach adulthood without learning that you -- not
> someone else -- are responsible for your own foolishness.
Doug,
Somehow, you managed to completely miss the point.
Somehow you manage to spend half of your useless life on UseNet without
getting an effing clue.
You think you're clever, but really you are just another semi-articulate
idiot.
--
EA
== 3 of 17 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 21 2010 10:57 am
From: "Existential Angst"
"Toom Tabard" <toom@tabard.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:da18b454-92f9-4537-8568-d35f967ac7ed@b7g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> On 21 Feb, 18:10, spamb...@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:
>> In article
>> <0b583763-74f0-4779-a6cd-8ae5d8bfc...@q21g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, Toom
>> Tabard <t...@tabard.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >It was a gas hob, not normally associated with a guillotining
>> >capability. As I've stated, there would be reasonable expectation you
>> >could reach in and unpack it without sustaining injury.
>>
>> And as I've stated, that's complete rubbish.
>>
>> Apparently you also managed to somehow reach adulthood without learning
>> that
>> objects made from sheet metal sometimes have sharp edges.
>>
>> > If there are
>> >exposed razor sharp edges
>>
>> They *weren't* "exposed", goof. They were *underneath* the item.
>>
>> <plonk>
>
> expose - 'to leave uncovered or unprotected' - Oxford English
> Dictionary.
>
> It was obvious enough from your contributions that you are a plonker.
> However, thanks for confirming that.
> How self-perspicacious (That's in the OED too).
Doug Miller is tool.
His vocabulary is above avg, but he still manages to write syntactically
correct nonsense, and thus, and chronically misses the point.
He gets big chubbies from putting people down, he's basically a sycophant of
the status quo. Anyone who deviates, in his petrified li'l mind, deserves
everything bad that may befall them, and he's always there to gloat.
Which is OK.... people like this usually get theirs...... or, have
already gotten it, which is why they are the way they are..
--
EA
>
> Toom
>
== 4 of 17 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 21 2010 11:09 am
From: spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)
In article <4b8180bd$0$5004$607ed4bc@cv.net>, "Existential Angst" <UNfitcat@UNoptonline.net> wrote:
>"Doug Miller" <spambait@milmac.com> wrote in message
>news:hlrqno$i1c$2@news.eternal-september.org...
>> In article <hlrg0r$pl5$1@news.eternal-september.org>, "john hamilton"
>> <bluestarx@mail.invalid> wrote:
>>>Last friday I took delivery at home of pressed steel kitchen gas hob from
>>>a
>>>well known national department store.
>>>
>>>After taking the top of the packaging off it, it then had to be lifted
>>>out.
>>>There was nothing to get hold of apart from the gas tap knobs, but I did
>>>not
>>>want to pull it out using these.
>>>
>>>So I put my fingers underneath and lifted, but then received three deep
>>>cuts
>>>along the back of three fingers.
>>
>> Somehow, you managed to reach adulthood without learning that sheet metal
>> objects sometimes have sharp edges.
>>
>> Somehow, you managed to reach adulthood without learning that one should
>> wear
>> gloves -- or at least use caution -- when handling objects with sharp
>> edges.
>>
>> Somehow, you managed to reach adulthood without learning that it's unwise
>> to
>> stick your unprotected fingers (see point 2 above) into places you can't
>> see,
>> and wrap them around the edges of a sheet metal object that may have sharp
>> edges (see point 1 above).
>>
>> Somehow, you managed to reach adulthood without learning the proper way to
>> open a carton to remove its contents.
>>
>> Somehow, you managed to reach adulthood without learning that you -- not
>> someone else -- are responsible for your own foolishness.
>
>Doug,
>Somehow, you managed to completely miss the point.
Somehow, you managed to completely fail to grasp the concept: things made of
sheet metal often have sharp edges. Being careless while unpacking them often
results in cut fingers. The OP was careless. He got cut fingers. Maybe he'll
learn to be more careful next time.
== 5 of 17 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 21 2010 11:20 am
From: "Existential Angst"
"Doug Miller" <spambait@milmac.com> wrote in message
news:hls0d7$cj0$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> In article <4b8180bd$0$5004$607ed4bc@cv.net>, "Existential Angst"
> <UNfitcat@UNoptonline.net> wrote:
>>"Doug Miller" <spambait@milmac.com> wrote in message
>>news:hlrqno$i1c$2@news.eternal-september.org...
>>> In article <hlrg0r$pl5$1@news.eternal-september.org>, "john hamilton"
>>> <bluestarx@mail.invalid> wrote:
>>>>Last friday I took delivery at home of pressed steel kitchen gas hob
>>>>from
>>>>a
>>>>well known national department store.
>>>>
>>>>After taking the top of the packaging off it, it then had to be lifted
>>>>out.
>>>>There was nothing to get hold of apart from the gas tap knobs, but I did
>>>>not
>>>>want to pull it out using these.
>>>>
>>>>So I put my fingers underneath and lifted, but then received three deep
>>>>cuts
>>>>along the back of three fingers.
>>>
>>> Somehow, you managed to reach adulthood without learning that sheet
>>> metal
>>> objects sometimes have sharp edges.
>>>
>>> Somehow, you managed to reach adulthood without learning that one should
>>> wear
>>> gloves -- or at least use caution -- when handling objects with sharp
>>> edges.
>>>
>>> Somehow, you managed to reach adulthood without learning that it's
>>> unwise
>>> to
>>> stick your unprotected fingers (see point 2 above) into places you can't
>>> see,
>>> and wrap them around the edges of a sheet metal object that may have
>>> sharp
>>> edges (see point 1 above).
>>>
>>> Somehow, you managed to reach adulthood without learning the proper way
>>> to
>>> open a carton to remove its contents.
>>>
>>> Somehow, you managed to reach adulthood without learning that you -- not
>>> someone else -- are responsible for your own foolishness.
>>
>>Doug,
>>Somehow, you managed to completely miss the point.
>
> Somehow, you managed to completely fail to grasp the concept: things made
> of
> sheet metal often have sharp edges. Being careless while unpacking them
> often
> results in cut fingers. The OP was careless. He got cut fingers. Maybe
> he'll
> learn to be more careful next time.
Spare us. goodgawd....
--
EA
>
== 6 of 17 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 21 2010 11:36 am
From: johannes
Doug Miller wrote:
>
> In article <8b89a318-0818-4064-985e-06e301e040ca@j27g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>, Toom Tabard <toom@tabard.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >The supplier (UK national store) is responsible.
>
> Horseshit. The OP is solely responsible. It's not exactly an arcane secret
> that objects made of sheet metal sometimes have sharp edges. Only a fool would
> uncrate something by wrapping his fingers around an edge that he couldn't see,
> and several others have already described how he *should* have uncrated it.
I don't agree with you. Sheet metal edges should at least have been smoothed
out. OP could not have known that the unpacking needed to be done in a
particular sequence. OP obviously didn't cut his fingers voluntarily.
This is a serious issue IMO.
== 7 of 17 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 21 2010 12:06 pm
From: DerbyDad03
On Feb 21, 12:53 pm, Toom Tabard <t...@tabard.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> On 21 Feb, 17:45, spamb...@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:
>
>
>
> > In article <d908e694-1b28-4c79-b7b2-c5dfe29e4...@l26g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, Toom Tabard <t...@tabard.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > >On 21 Feb, 17:32, spamb...@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:
> > >> In article <hlrg0r$pl...@news.eternal-september.org>, "john hamilton"
> > > <bluest...@mail.invalid> wrote:
> > >> >Last friday I took delivery at home of pressed steel kitchen gas hob from a
> > >> >well known national department store.
>
> > >> >After taking the top of the packaging off it, it then had to be lifted out.
> > >> >There was nothing to get hold of apart from the gas tap knobs, but I did not
> > >> >want to pull it out using these.
>
> > >> >So I put my fingers underneath and lifted, but then received three deep cuts
> > >> >along the back of three fingers.
>
> > >> Somehow, you managed to reach adulthood without learning that sheet metal
> > >> objects sometimes have sharp edges.
>
> > >> Somehow, you managed to reach adulthood without learning that one should wear
> > >> gloves -- or at least use caution -- when handling objects with sharp edges.
>
> > >> Somehow, you managed to reach adulthood without learning that it's unwise to
> > >> stick your unprotected fingers (see point 2 above) into places you can't see,
> > >> and wrap them around the edges of a sheet metal object that may have sharp
> > >> edges (see point 1 above).
>
> > >> Somehow, you managed to reach adulthood without learning the proper way to
> > >> open a carton to remove its contents.
>
> > >> Somehow, you managed to reach adulthood without learning that you -- not
> > >> someone else -- are responsible for your own foolishness.
>
> > >Total twaddle and nonsense in terms of the law of negligence and legal
> > >liability.
> > >For an item supplied to a consumer, there would have, at least, to be
> > >clear warning of any hazard of unpacking.
>
> > Does the law in the UK require prominent warnings, e.g. CAUTION! SHARP! on a
> > package of razor blades, or on a kitchen knife?
>
> > Some things are *inherently* dangerous, and only an ass fails to recognize the
> > risk.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> It was a gas hob, not normally associated with a guillotining
> capability. As I've stated, there would be reasonable expectation you
> could reach in and unpack it without sustaining injury. If there are
> exposed razor sharp edges then there would normally be an obligation
> to install eg, plastic sheathing over the edges to prevent injury.
> Otherwise, a very clear warning of the dangers of unpacking would be
> necessary. You are totally out of your legal shallows commenting on
> the issue.
>
> Toom
As per the OP: "So I put my fingers underneath and lifted, but then
received three deep cuts along the back of three fingers."
I'm still waiting for the answer to the question about how he cut the
*back* of three fingers.
== 8 of 17 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 21 2010 12:11 pm
From: DerbyDad03
On Feb 21, 1:01 pm, Toom Tabard <t...@tabard.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> On 21 Feb, 17:50, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Toom Tabard wrote:
> > > On 21 Feb, 17:14, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> john hamilton wrote
>
> > >>> Last friday I took delivery at home of pressed steel kitchen gas
> > >>> hob from a well known national department store. After taking the
> > >>> top of the packaging off it, it then had to be
> > >>> lifted out. There was nothing to get hold of apart from the gas tap
> > >>> knobs, but I did not want to pull it out using these.
> > >>> So I put my fingers underneath and lifted, but then received three
> > >>> deep cuts along the back of three fingers.
> > >>> Being pressed steel the edges were razor sharp because thats how
> > >>> metal is if its been stamped and not finished off along the sheared
> > >>> edge with a file.
> > >>> This is annoying because this situation is likely to happen time
> > >>> and time again to other people. Because how I lifted it out is
> > >>> probably the way everybody else would try to lift it out.
> > >>> How can I be sure of getting the manufacturers to act to stop this
> > >>> happening again.
>
> > >> You cant. Even buying only the most expensive products wont ensure
> > >> that.
>
> > >>> The company is an Italian one, but I purchased it from a U.K. store.
>
> > >> And it was made in china.
>
> > >>> My collegue suggests I should request £100 to be sent to a charity,
>
> > >> And they will file the request in the round filing cabinet under
> > >> their desk.
>
> > >>> since having to pay money
>
> > >> You cant make them do that.
>
> > >>> might make them actually make them take notice and then carry out
> > >>> the extra work on these units to stop this repeatedly happening.
>
> > >> Unlikely. Even if you can force them to pay that money, and you
> > >> cant, its unlikey that enough would do that to make it worth their
> > >> while to fix the problem.
>
> > >>> Thanks for any advice on how best to get them to make a charitable
> > >>> contribution.
>
> > >> You could try setting fire to yourself outside the Italian HQ.
>
> > >> Your only real option is to wear gloves when getting it
> > >> out of the box in that situation and file the edges yourself.
>
> > > Total nonsense
>
> > Your sig is sposed to be last, with a line with just -- on it in front of it.
>
> > > - in an item supplied to a consumer, there should be no hidden
> > > hazard in any reasonable action to remove it from the packaging
>
> > Then theres the real world...- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> And the law in the real world supports what I said. If you dispatch
> something with hidden and unexpected hazards which injure someone
> taking reasonable action as a consumer, then you are legally liable
> for the injuries.
>
> Toom
How would you deal with this situation:
A friend was moving a recliner. As they turned the chair around a
corner, it "reclined" trapping his hand within the mechanism and
severely cutting his hand. There was nothing in the paperwork for the
chair that said to "Secure the chair to prevent reclination while
moving".
Whose responsible for his injury?
== 9 of 17 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 21 2010 12:17 pm
From: Toom Tabard
On 21 Feb, 18:43, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Toom Tabard wrote
>
> > If you dispatch something with hidden and unexpected hazards which injure someone
> > taking reasonable action as a consumer, then you are legally liable for the injuries.
>
> Have fun getting damages in other than the stupid US legal system.
>
> Its been completely off the rails for centurys now.
>
> It makes a hell of a lot more sense to use gloves or open the box like a flower or just
> let the entire contents and its packaging slide out of the box onto the floor gently etc.- Hide quoted text -
>
But a customer can reasonably expect to open a box and remove an item
in any way that seems reasonable without being exposed to injury from
exposed but not obvious 'razor sharp' edges.
My remarks regarding the suppliers liability for injuries are in
response to the claim by others that the OP is the author of his own
misfortune.
The OP seems to have acted as reasonable person would in unpacking an
item and trying not to damage it. His main concern is that similar
injuries will happen to others. That's why I've advised him to report
it to Trading Standards and to the suppliers. Trading Standards have a
responsibility if an item is faulty or dangerous. In this case, there
is no suggestion that the hob is faulty or dangerous in operation, but
it might be hoped they'd also take action where the supply and
handling of the item presents a clear and present danger (or refer the
OP to whoever has any responsibility). Similarly, it is important the
OP report the problem to the supplier. There is some evidence of
negligence (his actual injuries) in the supply of the goods. It
becomes a much clearer issue of negligence and liability if, after
having drawn the issue to their attention, they fail to take
reasonable and immediate action to prevent injury to others.
Toom
== 10 of 17 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 21 2010 12:30 pm
From: Rocinante
On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 17:32:38 GMT, Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <hlrg0r$pl5$1@news.eternal-september.org>, "john hamilton" <bluestarx@mail.invalid> wrote:
>>Last friday I took delivery at home of pressed steel kitchen gas hob from a
>>well known national department store.
>>
>>After taking the top of the packaging off it, it then had to be lifted out.
>>There was nothing to get hold of apart from the gas tap knobs, but I did not
>>want to pull it out using these.
>>
>>So I put my fingers underneath and lifted, but then received three deep cuts
>>along the back of three fingers.
>
> Somehow, you managed to reach adulthood without learning that sheet metal
> objects sometimes have sharp edges.
>
> Somehow, you managed to reach adulthood without learning that one should wear
> gloves -- or at least use caution -- when handling objects with sharp edges.
>
> Somehow, you managed to reach adulthood without learning that it's unwise to
> stick your unprotected fingers (see point 2 above) into places you can't see,
> and wrap them around the edges of a sheet metal object that may have sharp
> edges (see point 1 above).
>
> Somehow, you managed to reach adulthood without learning the proper way to
> open a carton to remove its contents.
>
> Somehow, you managed to reach adulthood without learning that you -- not
> someone else -- are responsible for your own foolishness.
Your argument is invalid if there were no warnings stamped on the packing
box. Without warnings, a reasonable person (a legal term) would expect to
unpack an appliance in his own home without sustaining injuries.
--
"Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another, 'What!
You too? I thought I was the only one!'"
-- C.S. Lewis
RocinanteREMOVETHIS@gmail.com
2/21/2010 3:22:46 PM
== 11 of 17 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 21 2010 12:33 pm
From: Toom Tabard
On 21 Feb, 20:11, DerbyDad03 <teamarr...@eznet.net> wrote:
> On Feb 21, 1:01 pm, Toom Tabard <t...@tabard.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 21 Feb, 17:50, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Toom Tabard wrote:
> > > > On 21 Feb, 17:14, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> john hamilton wrote
>
> > > >>> Last friday I took delivery at home of pressed steel kitchen gas
> > > >>> hob from a well known national department store. After taking the
> > > >>> top of the packaging off it, it then had to be
> > > >>> lifted out. There was nothing to get hold of apart from the gas tap
> > > >>> knobs, but I did not want to pull it out using these.
> > > >>> So I put my fingers underneath and lifted, but then received three
> > > >>> deep cuts along the back of three fingers.
> > > >>> Being pressed steel the edges were razor sharp because thats how
> > > >>> metal is if its been stamped and not finished off along the sheared
> > > >>> edge with a file.
> > > >>> This is annoying because this situation is likely to happen time
> > > >>> and time again to other people. Because how I lifted it out is
> > > >>> probably the way everybody else would try to lift it out.
> > > >>> How can I be sure of getting the manufacturers to act to stop this
> > > >>> happening again.
>
> > > >> You cant. Even buying only the most expensive products wont ensure
> > > >> that.
>
> > > >>> The company is an Italian one, but I purchased it from a U.K. store.
>
> > > >> And it was made in china.
>
> > > >>> My collegue suggests I should request £100 to be sent to a charity,
>
> > > >> And they will file the request in the round filing cabinet under
> > > >> their desk.
>
> > > >>> since having to pay money
>
> > > >> You cant make them do that.
>
> > > >>> might make them actually make them take notice and then carry out
> > > >>> the extra work on these units to stop this repeatedly happening.
>
> > > >> Unlikely. Even if you can force them to pay that money, and you
> > > >> cant, its unlikey that enough would do that to make it worth their
> > > >> while to fix the problem.
>
> > > >>> Thanks for any advice on how best to get them to make a charitable
> > > >>> contribution.
>
> > > >> You could try setting fire to yourself outside the Italian HQ.
>
> > > >> Your only real option is to wear gloves when getting it
> > > >> out of the box in that situation and file the edges yourself.
>
> > > > Total nonsense
>
> > > Your sig is sposed to be last, with a line with just -- on it in front of it.
>
> > > > - in an item supplied to a consumer, there should be no hidden
> > > > hazard in any reasonable action to remove it from the packaging
>
> > > Then theres the real world...- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > And the law in the real world supports what I said. If you dispatch
> > something with hidden and unexpected hazards which injure someone
> > taking reasonable action as a consumer, then you are legally liable
> > for the injuries.
>
> > Toom
>
> How would you deal with this situation:
>
> A friend was moving a recliner. As they turned the chair around a
> corner, it "reclined" trapping his hand within the mechanism and
> severely cutting his hand. There was nothing in the paperwork for the
> chair that said to "Secure the chair to prevent reclination while
> moving".
>
> Whose responsible for his injury?- Hide quoted text -
>
Negligence and liability cases are amongst the most variable and
varied legal issues. There are general principles but each case
depends on the individual circumstances. It might depend, eg on
whether there was an inherent design fault or specific mechanical
fault in the mechanism, or whether your friend was just careless of
his own safety. Nor does someone always have to be 'responsible'.
There may be no negligence as such. But in the case at issue, it would
normally be expected that you should be able reach into a package to
remove an item such as a hob in a reasonable manner without being cut
by unprotected 'razor sharp' edges. You would most likely be doing
what a reasonable person should be able to expect to do without
injury.
Toom
== 12 of 17 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 21 2010 12:47 pm
From: Tony Hwang
Toom Tabard wrote:
> On 21 Feb, 17:26, spamb...@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:
>> In article<8b89a318-0818-4064-985e-06e301e04...@j27g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>, Toom Tabard<t...@tabard.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> The supplier (UK national store) is responsible.
>>
>> Horseshit. The OP is solely responsible. It's not exactly an arcane secret
>> that objects made of sheet metal sometimes have sharp edges. Only a fool would
>> uncrate something by wrapping his fingers around an edge that he couldn't see,
>> and several others have already described how he *should* have uncrated it.
>
> Total nonsesnse in terms of the law of negligence and legal liability.
> There would have to be clear warning of the hazard of unpacking.
>
> Toom
Hmmm,
Negligent? Start with OP and you are same kind?
== 13 of 17 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 21 2010 12:58 pm
From: johannes
Toom Tabard wrote:
>
> On 21 Feb, 17:32, spamb...@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:
> > In article <hlrg0r$pl...@news.eternal-september.org>, "john hamilton" <bluest...@mail.invalid> wrote:
> > >Last friday I took delivery at home of pressed steel kitchen gas hob from a
> > >well known national department store.
> >
> > >After taking the top of the packaging off it, it then had to be lifted out.
> > >There was nothing to get hold of apart from the gas tap knobs, but I did not
> > >want to pull it out using these.
> >
> > >So I put my fingers underneath and lifted, but then received three deep cuts
> > >along the back of three fingers.
> >
> > Somehow, you managed to reach adulthood without learning that sheet metal
> > objects sometimes have sharp edges.
> >
> > Somehow, you managed to reach adulthood without learning that one should wear
> > gloves -- or at least use caution -- when handling objects with sharp edges.
> >
> > Somehow, you managed to reach adulthood without learning that it's unwise to
> > stick your unprotected fingers (see point 2 above) into places you can't see,
> > and wrap them around the edges of a sheet metal object that may have sharp
> > edges (see point 1 above).
> >
> > Somehow, you managed to reach adulthood without learning the proper way to
> > open a carton to remove its contents.
> >
> > Somehow, you managed to reach adulthood without learning that you -- not
> > someone else -- are responsible for your own foolishness.
>
> Total twaddle and nonsense in terms of the law of negligence and legal
> liability.
> For an item supplied to a consumer, there would have, at least, to be
> clear warning of any hazard of unpacking.
>
> Toom
Yeah, as when I received my Phillips widescreen LCD monitor in the box. It was
locked to the vertical spring loaded support column with a pin. Appropriate
warning only to remove the pin when the monitor was placed upright on the table.
Just removing the pin when unpacking could cause a big surprise as the column
would expand in your face.
== 14 of 17 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 21 2010 1:06 pm
From: "Rod Speed"
DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Feb 21, 1:01 pm, Toom Tabard <t...@tabard.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 21 Feb, 17:50, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Toom Tabard wrote:
>>>> On 21 Feb, 17:14, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> john hamilton wrote
>>
>>>>>> Last friday I took delivery at home of pressed steel kitchen gas
>>>>>> hob from a well known national department store. After taking the
>>>>>> top of the packaging off it, it then had to be
>>>>>> lifted out. There was nothing to get hold of apart from the gas
>>>>>> tap knobs, but I did not want to pull it out using these.
>>>>>> So I put my fingers underneath and lifted, but then received
>>>>>> three deep cuts along the back of three fingers.
>>>>>> Being pressed steel the edges were razor sharp because thats how
>>>>>> metal is if its been stamped and not finished off along the
>>>>>> sheared edge with a file.
>>>>>> This is annoying because this situation is likely to happen time
>>>>>> and time again to other people. Because how I lifted it out is
>>>>>> probably the way everybody else would try to lift it out.
>>>>>> How can I be sure of getting the manufacturers to act to stop
>>>>>> this happening again.
>>
>>>>> You cant. Even buying only the most expensive products wont ensure
>>>>> that.
>>
>>>>>> The company is an Italian one, but I purchased it from a U.K.
>>>>>> store.
>>
>>>>> And it was made in china.
>>
>>>>>> My collegue suggests I should request £100 to be sent to a
>>>>>> charity,
>>
>>>>> And they will file the request in the round filing cabinet under
>>>>> their desk.
>>
>>>>>> since having to pay money
>>
>>>>> You cant make them do that.
>>
>>>>>> might make them actually make them take notice and then carry out
>>>>>> the extra work on these units to stop this repeatedly happening.
>>
>>>>> Unlikely. Even if you can force them to pay that money, and you
>>>>> cant, its unlikey that enough would do that to make it worth their
>>>>> while to fix the problem.
>>
>>>>>> Thanks for any advice on how best to get them to make a
>>>>>> charitable contribution.
>>
>>>>> You could try setting fire to yourself outside the Italian HQ.
>>
>>>>> Your only real option is to wear gloves when getting it
>>>>> out of the box in that situation and file the edges yourself.
>>
>>>> Total nonsense
>>
>>> Your sig is sposed to be last, with a line with just -- on it in
>>> front of it.
>>
>>>> - in an item supplied to a consumer, there should be no hidden
>>>> hazard in any reasonable action to remove it from the packaging
>>
>>> Then theres the real world...- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> And the law in the real world supports what I said. If you dispatch
>> something with hidden and unexpected hazards which injure someone
>> taking reasonable action as a consumer, then you are legally liable
>> for the injuries.
>>
>> Toom
>
> How would you deal with this situation:
>
> A friend was moving a recliner. As they turned the chair around a
> corner, it "reclined" trapping his hand within the mechanism and
> severely cutting his hand. There was nothing in the paperwork for the
> chair that said to "Secure the chair to prevent reclination while
> moving".
>
> Whose responsible for his injury?
The stupid that was too stupid to move it properly.
Same with the one that cuts itself when using a knife or a box cutter etc.
== 15 of 17 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 21 2010 1:15 pm
From: "Rod Speed"
Toom Tabard wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
>> Toom Tabard wrote
>>> If you dispatch something with hidden and unexpected hazards which
>>> injure someone taking reasonable action as a consumer, then you are
>>> legally liable for the injuries.
>> Have fun getting damages in other than the stupid US legal system.
>> Its been completely off the rails for centurys now.
>> It makes a hell of a lot more sense to use gloves or open the box like a flower or just
>> let the entire contents and its packaging slide out of the box onto the floor gently etc.
> But a customer can reasonably expect to open a box and remove
> an item in any way that seems reasonable without being exposed
> to injury from exposed but not obvious 'razor sharp' edges.
And anyone with even half a clue realises that metal edges can be
sharp, particularly when the edges wont be exposed in normal use.
> My remarks regarding the suppliers liability for injuries are in response
> to the claim by others that the OP is the author of his own misfortune.
And as other pointed out, you dont see big warnings on
razor blades, box cutters and knives that they can cut you.
> The OP seems to have acted as reasonable person
> would in unpacking an item and trying not to damage it.
No reasonable person shoves his hand into some place he cant see
with a component that is meant be be installed before it is used.
> His main concern is that similar injuries will happen to others.
And that mentality sees fools demand big danger signs
on razor blades, box cutters and knives etc etc etc.
> That's why I've advised him to report it to
> Trading Standards and to the suppliers.
And that wont have any effect what so ever, you watch.
> Trading Standards have a responsibility if an item is faulty or dangerous.
It isnt either. A cut finger is not life threatening, which is why you
can buy razor blades, box cutters and knives any time you like.
> In this case, there is no suggestion that the hob is faulty or dangerous
> in operation, but it might be hoped they'd also take action where the
> supply and handling of the item presents a clear and present danger
Of a minor cut finger at worst.
> (or refer the OP to whoever has any responsibility).
Who will file any complaint he makes in the round filing cabinet under their desk where it belongs.
> Similarly, it is important the OP report the problem to the supplier.
Like hell it is.
> There is some evidence of negligence (his actual injuries) in the supply of the goods.
No more than with a razor blade or box cutter or knife that cuts someone.
> It becomes a much clearer issue of negligence and liability if,
> after having drawn the issue to their attention, they fail to take
> reasonable and immediate action to prevent injury to others.
Liability for a cut finger. Wow, talk about the end of civilisation as we know it.
== 16 of 17 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 21 2010 2:16 pm
From: "Stormin Mormon"
Or, slit two seams and slide the item out.
Probably better to cut all four, and then you are
closer to having the cardboard in smaller pieces
to put in the rubbish.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"DerbyDad03" <teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote in
message
news:24087aa3-1a6a-4f87-a9f8-315ba0dbb3b1@c10g2000vbr.googlegroups.com...
Ever heard of a box cutter?
Slit the corner seams of the box vertically so
that it opens like
flower.
If you need to repackage the item, use strapping
tape to put the box
back together.
== 17 of 17 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 21 2010 2:24 pm
From: Tony Hwang
Stormin Mormon wrote:
> Or, slit two seams and slide the item out.
> Probably better to cut all four, and then you are
> closer to having the cardboard in smaller pieces
> to put in the rubbish.
>
Hmm,
Not rubbish. Into the blue recycle bin!
==============================================================================
TOPIC: DIY Pizza: Cheaper, Tastier, More Fun
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/613a0e6c1881d403?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 21 2010 11:20 am
From: Balvenieman
Al <albundy2@mailinator.com> wrote:
>A large pizza is only $5 where I live. Ingredients are expensive. And
>most of all, my time is worth something. DIY pizza makes no sense for
>me.
For 5 bux, it can't be much of a pizza. My DW occasionally makes a
from-scratch American "pizza". She uses only the best ingredients. It is
very good; it is expensive. She more frequently makes a quick-snack
American "pizza", the only difference being that she uses Pillsbury's
refrigerated pizza crust dough. It is good; it remains expensive. Also,
the Pillsbury product gets tough if kept too long after opening; but
then, so does from-scratch dough. American pizza is all about the
toppings but the Italian progenitor of "pizza" is about the bread,
toppings often are minimal and intended to complement the bread, and
each of Italy's regions has its own variant.
The intrinsic value of time exists only within the head and is,
therefore, imaginary. Time is a commodity that always is continuously
"spent"; it cannot be "saved" or hoarded. Time's "value" is relative and
subjective and, in large part, depends on the results of whatever
activity has taken place during any interval. Good cooks, who also enjoy
eating, regard food preparation as time well spent.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: walking boots-- which are good?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/52b4735386145e8e?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 21 2010 12:34 pm
From: FenlandRunner
On 19 Feb, 12:20, Peter Clinch <p.j.cli...@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:
> john bently wrote:
> > Now i have retired I would like to start walking. Would anyone know of a
> > good place to see some *critical* reviews of the different walking boots
> > available please? Apparently the last consumers association review was done
> > way back in april 2006.
>
> > Or would anyone know of some boots (preferably not too expensive) that are
> > generally believed by many people to be a good buy? Thanks for any advice.
>
> Reviews are of little use beyond telling you what conditions a certain
> pair can be expected to handle.
>
> And they are of little use (and anecdotes of goodness of little use
> alongside them) because the absolutely crucial point is fit. There is a
> lot more to a shoe-size as to how well a boot fits as feet are complex 3
> dimensional shapes and so are boots. it doesn't matter if they're
> lasted and stitched by God's Own Right Hand if they're a different shape
> to your feet. For example, my wife and I have quite different foot
> shapes: I like Scarpa and Teva, she doesn't like either.
>
> So I'd suggest you find a good shop that knows its boot-fitting (tell us
> where you are and suggestions can be made).
>
> Also, don't assume you need boots. I do most of my walking in shoes and
> sandals because they're lighter and have less stuff to rub, so more
> comfort, less tiring to walk in and less chance of rubbing (and
> blisters). Folk go on and on about ankle support being necessary, but
> the fact is that human ankles are perfectly adequate for walking and
> shouldn't need any extra propping up most of the time. Some things,
> like edging skis or standing on your toes on a tiny hold or carrying
> outsize loads ankles haven't evolved to carry, do benefit from extra
> ankle support, but /walking/ is actually harder as your foot is more
> restricted from normal flexing. Some boots benefit from being stiffer,
> for example to take crampons or walking over very rough stone paths, but
> in other places again they just prevent your foot from conforming
> naturally to the terrain and make walking more tiring.
>
> In summary, try on a good selection with a good fitter (who can do
> things like add volume adjusters and short-cut to models/brands suitable
> for you foot-shape) and depending on where and what you have in mind
> don't assume you particularly need boots.
>
> Pete.
> --
> Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
> Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
> Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
> net p.j.cli...@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
I'm not an Inov-8 salesman but south of the border I can't see the
point in boots.
For just trail stuff the f-lites are great, and as Pete suggested the
mud-rocs have sufficient lugs to cope with mud, grass, etc.
Hopefully, the old-fashioned view of must wear boots on the hill is
diminishing?
== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 21 2010 12:35 pm
From: FenlandRunner
On 20 Feb, 17:54, Simon Challands <simon_use...@helvellyn.plus.com>
wrote:
> In message <4obtn55u19t2rem1l9pgm3tquo3jo88...@4ax.com>
> Vic Smith <thismailautodele...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 19 Feb 2010 08:08:45 -0700, Scott Bryce
> > <sbr...@scottbryce.com> wrote:
> >>Peter Clinch wrote:
> >>> Also, don't assume you need boots.
>
> >>In fact, assume that you don't. Get a well fitting running shoe, or a
> >>lightweight trail shoe. Boots are overkill for most hiking. Lightweight
> >>shoes will allow you to use a more natural stride, and will be less
> >>effort to walk in.
> > Yes, hiking in rocks and walking level terrain are different.
>
> Solid level terrain is also different from giving level terrain and
> rocks. I wear boots (don't fancy picking my way along the top of the
> Scafells in shoes), and they're fine there, they're fine on level,
> good stony paths, and they knacker me on roads.
>
> --
> Simon Challands
"(don't fancy picking my way along the top of the
Scafells in shoes)"
A light pair of Inov-8's will see you skipping across the rocks? ;-)
== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 21 2010 1:10 pm
From: PeterC
On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 12:34:33 -0800 (PST), FenlandRunner wrote:
> ot an Inov-8 salesman but south of the border I can't see the
> point in boots.
>
> For just trail stuff the f-lites are great, and as Pete suggested the
> mud-rocs have sufficient lugs to cope with mud, grass, etc.
>
> Hopefully, the old-fashioned view of must wear boots on the hill is
> diminishing?
Well, walking across fields yesterday, after the frost was going, would
have been very messy in shoes! In several places the mud was half way up
the boots and in others there were about 2 - 3" of icy water.
Not too easy to avoid these when on footpaths near farms.
--
Peter.
2x4 - thick plank; 4x4 - two of 'em.
== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 21 2010 1:15 pm
From: nmm1@cam.ac.uk
In article <1p59l2tydj2sj$.yaf40h4388g8.dlg@40tude.net>,
PeterC <giraffe@homecall.co.uk> wrote:
>On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 12:34:33 -0800 (PST), FenlandRunner wrote:
>
>> ot an Inov-8 salesman but south of the border I can't see the
>> point in boots.
>>
>> For just trail stuff the f-lites are great, and as Pete suggested the
>> mud-rocs have sufficient lugs to cope with mud, grass, etc.
>>
>> Hopefully, the old-fashioned view of must wear boots on the hill is
>> diminishing?
>
>Well, walking across fields yesterday, after the frost was going, would
>have been very messy in shoes! In several places the mud was half way up
>the boots and in others there were about 2 - 3" of icy water.
>Not too easy to avoid these when on footpaths near farms.
Heather is quite fun in shoes, too. Boot keep most of it out, and
boots+gaiters are more-or-less proof against it.
Also, the simple padding is quite important for rocky going; a
clip on the ankle is enough to make it quite hard to walk.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: 7 Ways to Clean Your Shower on the Cheap
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/5b484d538453a006?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 21 2010 2:12 pm
From: "The Henchman"
"Ablang" <ron916@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7497e94f-60c6-4861-9079-6b1d13431d91@b9g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
> 7 Ways to Clean Your Shower on the Cheap
> Stephanie Dray
> Published August 31, 2006 by:
> Stephanie Dray
>
> http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/55091/7_ways_to_clean_your_shower_on_the.html
We use a squeegee. Two adult home. It's the least amount of effort to use
everyday and is effective are taking care of soap scum etc. We have a bath
fitter insert type shower stall. Horrible stuff unless you are elderly.
We'll be tiling the stall next year and putting in a proper tub, and will
stick with the squeegee method.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Pay mortage payment before due date?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/3228aec93fd86575?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 21 2010 2:51 pm
From: "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds"
In article
<7uc9oqF597U1@mid.individual.net>,
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:
> > In article
> > <7ub35cFmqvU1@mid.individual.net>,
> > "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:
> >>> In article
> >>> <7uahiiFk06U1@mid.individual.net>,
> >>> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:
> >>>>> In article
> >>>>> <7u71tiF5lkU1@mid.individual.net>,
> >>>>> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:
> >>>>>>> In article
> >>>>>>> <7u5jb0F4lfU1@mid.individual.net>,
> >>>>>>> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
>
> <reams of your puerile shit any 2 year old could leave for dead flushed
> where it belongs>
why is it that fools like you think
censoring responses makes you seem more
"intelligent" old fella
--
ELOQUIDIOT (n) A highly educated,
sophisticated, and articulate person who
has absolutely no clue concerning what
they are talking about.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Cutting down the cost of washing machine powder
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/3b767149103b33f0?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 21 2010 2:53 pm
From: "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds"
In article
<7uc9v7F6aeU1@mid.individual.net>,
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote
> > Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
> >> Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote
> >>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
> >>>> Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote
> >>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>
> >>>>>> Not in some situations. I wash in cold water and wear dark blue
> >>>>>> T shirts all year round and find that you get a sort of scum with
> >>>>>> powders which appears to be due to the soap not dissolving entirely.
>
> >>>>> IOWs you use too much
>
> >>>> Wrong, as always. I get no suds forming at all and get the same
> >>>> result with a tenth of the amount too. The problem is that it
> >>>> doesnt fully dissolve in cold water.
>
> >>>> Works fine in hot water.
>
> >>> IOWs you are using the wrong soap
>
> >> Wrong again, I get that with all the soap powders,
> >> even those that claim to be for cold water.
>
> >> What does work is the clear liquid detergent.
>
> >> Quite a bit of the liquid detergent appears to just be
> >> the powder in liquid and that has the same problem.
>
> >> And I should emphasis that it is JUST a problem with the dark blue pure
> >> cotton T shirts, you dont see it on the jeans, towels or sheets or
> >> underwear.
>
> > So you have manufacturers that manufacture a material that only
> > shows "soap crud" on one small subset of the products it's used for.
>
> Yep.
>
> > LOL
>
> Wota stunning line in rational argument you have there, child.
Totally appropriate to "your" situation
old fella
>
> >> And I asked all the major manufacturers about it too.
>
> >> There appears to be something about the dark blue pure cotton T
> >> shirts that get any not fully dissolved soap powder sticking to them
> >> which is the problem and its only visible on the very dark blue.
>
> > of course there is.
>
> >> When you are hanging them on the line, you can rub the visible mark
> >> off, which also supports the idea that is from the soap, not dirt etc.
>
> > or maybe a defective washing machine
>
> Nope, get that with two different washing machines with very different
> actions.
>
> Keep guessing, and ending up with egg all over your silly little face, as
> always.
Right. You are the only known person who
has this particular problem and I'm the
one who has egg on his face. Dream on
old fella
--
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur
adipiscing elit. Cras lobortis volutpat
commodo. Morbi lobortis, massa fringilla
adipiscing suscipit, velit urna pharetra
neque, non luctus arcu diam vitae justo.
Vivamus lacinia scelerisque ultricies.
Nunc lobortis elit ligula. Aliquam
sollicitudin nunc sed est gravida ac
viverra tellus ullamcorper. Vivamus non
nisi suscipit nisi egestas venenatis.
Donec vitae arcu id urna euismod
feugiat. Vivamus porta lobortis
ultricies. Nulla adipiscing tellus a
neque vehicula porta. Maecenas volutpat
aliquet sagittis. Proin nisi magna,
molestie id volutpat in, tincidunt sed
dolor. Nullam nisi erat, aliquet
scelerisque sagittis vitae, pretium
accumsan odio. Sed ut mi iaculis eros
rutrum tristique ut nec mi. Aliquam nec
augue dui, in mattis urna. In pretium
metus eu diam blandit accumsan. Ut eu
lorem sed odio porttitor blandit.
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