http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en
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Today's topics:
* What's 1 way you enjoy being wasteful? - 3 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/d28075f4c0b4eb2f?hl=en
* Do you too see the connection b/ wasting energy and terrorism? - 1 messages,
1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/510b0bf3b79b779e?hl=en
* Cutting down the cost of washing machine powder - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/3b767149103b33f0?hl=en
* walking boots-- which are good? - 6 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/52b4735386145e8e?hl=en
* 0bama. Hard at work making jobs. For ..... - 4 messages, 4 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/6e3f54eb393bd43b?hl=en
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TOPIC: What's 1 way you enjoy being wasteful?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/d28075f4c0b4eb2f?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 27 2010 7:31 pm
From: "Rod Speed"
Rick wrote
> me@privacy.net wrote
>> Rod Speed<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Just a big thermal mass heated by resistance electric heat for use later?
>>> Yes.
>>>> Have link?
>>> http://www.derbyheatbanks.com.au/
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storage_heater
>> Excellent strategy!!
>> Have not heard of them in USA
>> Is this widespread in Au?
> i CALL IT a "hot water heater" :=)
Yeah, you can do it that way but you need a lot more
space when water is the thermal mass, because you
dont have anything like the same temperature range.
The ones that use metal bricks have a temp range from ambient
to quite literally red hot and they have that fancy silica insulation
that was developed for space reentry heat shields.
No risk of leaks either.
== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 6:18 pm
From: "Jim...(8-| "
On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 05:22:07 +1100, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>Jim...(8-| wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Jim...(8-| wrote
>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> me@privacy.net wrote
>>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>
>>>>>>> I basically buy whatever I feel like technology wise,
>>>>>>> have the lights and heaters etc all fully automated,
>
>>>>>> what hardware are you using to automate lights and heaters?
>
>>>>> X10
>
>>>> It doesn't sound like you have reverse cycle A/C?
>
>>> Nope, I use a swamp cooler in summer, vastly better value.
>
>> Yeah, i didn't think of your dry heat, those evaporator things are useless here.
>
>>> I use electric heat, and have just lately changed over to using a
>>> heated throw rather than keeping the entire room nice and warm.
>
>>> The house is passive solar and that works fine unless its a very
>>> overcast heavy cloud day.
>
>>>> The heat from that is splendid for a warm up job when
>>>> cold and I think rather rends olde style heaters past it.
>
>>> It doesnt work that well here, its too cold outside when I need the
>>> heat most, first thing in the morning before the sun comes up and
>>> I get the advantage of the passive solar sitting in the sun. Its too
>>> cold outside for reverse cycle to work well here, and the main
>>> room is very lossy with vast amounts of north facing glass.
>
>>> It wouldnt be economical to replace that glass with very high tech
>>> tripple glazing now, it makes a lot more sense to use an electric
>>> storage heater that gets charged overnight to warm the room up
>>> quickly. I get up very early indeed, often 4am or earlier and thats
>>> well before the sun comes up. So it makes more sense to use
>>> a heated throw and then turn that off when I'm sitting in the sun later.
>
>> I'm in the process of boarding up our windows, we don't need any sun shining in,
>
>Dunno, I would have preferred it in BrizVegas one time when
>I showed up in Oct, too cold for me in shorts and T shirt.
>
>The parents did have a wood fire too for winter,
>but that at night when the sun is long gone.
>
>> and anything to quieten the outside noise is a bonus.
>
>Not a problem here, mine are all 8'x8' patio doors with
>heavy armoured glass. That keeps the noise at bay
>except when I have the doors open when the cooler is off.
>
>The main problem with that config is that windy days
>are a bit of a nuisance blowing the papers around etc.
You also need screens to keep bugs out. The only papers we have any
more are the householder mail which serves as reading material in the
lavatory before being tossed for the next week's batch.
>
>>>> Not a difficult job to fit a split system A/C either and
>>>> they can be had at a pretty reasonable price now.
>
>>> Sure, but the problem is that the outside temps are so low when
>>> I want it to provide heat that they dont work that well in my situation.
>>> Makes more sense to get the quick boost of the air temp using
>>> stored electrical heat and use the heated throw until the sun comes up.
>
>> I can't help but think the belief about not working in cold temps may be a furphy.
>
>Yeah, it certainly is for me, I dont get that effect at all.
>
>I do with the stinking hot days, but thats days over 40C.
>
>> You're more switched on than me in these techy things but
>> in my mind providing the outside temp is higher than the
>> boiling point of the refrigerating gas then it should work.
>
>The problem is that the outside coils ice up.
>
>Its possible to have them on the sunny north side, but that doesnt
>help with my very early starts, the sun doenst come up for 3-4
>hours and I dont need the R/C once the sun is up anyway.
>
>It is possible to have the coils against a heavy concrete wall
>under a deep eve where the sun has heated that concrete
>wall the day before, but there isnt any heat left in it by 3am
>the next day unless you have a movable thermal blanket over it.
>
>Its just a lot easier to automate the storage
>electrical heater and the heated throw.
>
>The storage heater is still being charged until about 6am when
>everyone else is getting out of bed an starting breakfast etc.
>
>> Even at -10 with a big block of ice sitting on the evaporator
>> coil (the outside one when in reverse) it should still function.
>
>It still works, but the efficiency is fucked so its not that much better than a fan heater.
Fair point, makes sense. It would cost to much to make them with
excess capacity for fringe conditions.
>
>And the offpeak power for the storage heater is much
>cheaper again, so its much better value than R/C.
>
>> Where am I wrong? as they say they don't work near freezing point.
>
>Its not so much wrong as the efficiency ends up worse than the offpeak power costs.
>
>I really should just sleep in till the sun has come up, but I dont work like that at all.
>
>Big change there. I used to think that 9:30 meetings at work
>were a complete obscenity. I hardly ever sleep in till 5 now.
>
>>> Even in the evening after the sun has gone down, a heated throw
>>> costs a hell of a lot less to run than any reverse cycle system does.
>
>>> Same for the days with no sun too.
>
== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 7:52 pm
From: "Rod Speed"
Jim...(8-| wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Jim...(8-| wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Jim...(8-| wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>> me@privacy.net wrote
>>>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>>>> I basically buy whatever I feel like technology wise,
>>>>>>>> have the lights and heaters etc all fully automated,
>>>>>>> what hardware are you using to automate lights and heaters?
>>>>>> X10
>>>>> It doesn't sound like you have reverse cycle A/C?
>>>> Nope, I use a swamp cooler in summer, vastly better value.
>>> Yeah, i didn't think of your dry heat, those evaporator things are useless here.
>>>> I use electric heat, and have just lately changed over to using a
>>>> heated throw rather than keeping the entire room nice and warm.
>>>> The house is passive solar and that works fine unless its a very
>>>> overcast heavy cloud day.
>>>>> The heat from that is splendid for a warm up job when
>>>>> cold and I think rather rends olde style heaters past it.
>>>> It doesnt work that well here, its too cold outside when I need the
>>>> heat most, first thing in the morning before the sun comes up and
>>>> I get the advantage of the passive solar sitting in the sun. Its
>>>> too cold outside for reverse cycle to work well here, and the main
>>>> room is very lossy with vast amounts of north facing glass.
>>>> It wouldnt be economical to replace that glass with very high tech
>>>> tripple glazing now, it makes a lot more sense to use an electric
>>>> storage heater that gets charged overnight to warm the room up
>>>> quickly. I get up very early indeed, often 4am or earlier and thats
>>>> well before the sun comes up. So it makes more sense to use a
>>>> heated throw and then turn that off when I'm sitting in the sun later.
>>> I'm in the process of boarding up our windows, we don't need any sun shining in,
>> Dunno, I would have preferred it in BrizVegas one time when
>> I showed up in Oct, too cold for me in shorts and T shirt.
>> The parents did have a wood fire too for winter,
>> but that at night when the sun is long gone.
>>> and anything to quieten the outside noise is a bonus.
>> Not a problem here, mine are all 8'x8' patio doors with
>> heavy armoured glass. That keeps the noise at bay
>> except when I have the doors open when the cooler is off.
>> The main problem with that config is that windy days
>> are a bit of a nuisance blowing the papers around etc.
> You also need screens to keep bugs out.
Yeah, given that its an irrigation area here, the mosquitos have 4 engines.
> The only papers we have any more are the householder
> mail which serves as reading material in the lavatory
> before being tossed for the next week's batch.
I only bother with the local paper now, just to keep up
with whats happening locally and the garage sales etc.
Quite a bit of other stuff lying around tho like the junk mail.
>>>>> Not a difficult job to fit a split system A/C either and
>>>>> they can be had at a pretty reasonable price now.
>>>> Sure, but the problem is that the outside temps are so low when
>>>> I want it to provide heat that they dont work that well in my
>>>> situation. Makes more sense to get the quick boost of the air temp
>>>> using stored electrical heat and use the heated throw until the sun
>>>> comes up.
>>> I can't help but think the belief about not working in cold temps may be a furphy.
>> Yeah, it certainly is for me, I dont get that effect at all.
>> I do with the stinking hot days, but thats days over 40C.
>>> You're more switched on than me in these techy things but
>>> in my mind providing the outside temp is higher than the
>>> boiling point of the refrigerating gas then it should work.
>> The problem is that the outside coils ice up.
>> Its possible to have them on the sunny north side, but that doesnt
>> help with my very early starts, the sun doenst come up for 3-4
>> hours and I dont need the R/C once the sun is up anyway.
>> It is possible to have the coils against a heavy concrete wall
>> under a deep eve where the sun has heated that concrete
>> wall the day before, but there isnt any heat left in it by 3am
>> the next day unless you have a movable thermal blanket over it.
>> Its just a lot easier to automate the storage
>> electrical heater and the heated throw.
>> The storage heater is still being charged until about 6am when
>> everyone else is getting out of bed an starting breakfast etc.
>>> Even at -10 with a big block of ice sitting on the evaporator
>>> coil (the outside one when in reverse) it should still function.
>> It still works, but the efficiency is fucked so its not that much
>> better than a fan heater.
> Fair point, makes sense. It would cost to much to
> make them with excess capacity for fringe conditions.
Yeah, I could use reverse cycle with underground as the heat source,
but thats even more expensive and it wouldnt get used that much.
The heated throw is a minor nuisance when cooking dinner, getting up
a few times when its cooking etc, but thats the only real downside with it.
>> And the offpeak power for the storage heater is much
>> cheaper again, so its much better value than R/C.
>>> Where am I wrong? as they say they don't work near freezing point.
>> Its not so much wrong as the efficiency ends up worse than the offpeak power costs.
>> I really should just sleep in till the sun has come up, but I dont work like that at all.
>> Big change there. I used to think that 9:30 meetings at work
>> were a complete obscenity. I hardly ever sleep in till 5 now.
>>>> Even in the evening after the sun has gone down, a heated throw
>>>> costs a hell of a lot less to run than any reverse cycle system does.
>>>> Same for the days with no sun too.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Do you too see the connection b/ wasting energy and terrorism?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/510b0bf3b79b779e?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 5:43 am
From: Stephen Harding
TheTibetanMonkey wrote:
> On Feb 24, 5:49 pm, Ron Wallenfang <rwallenf...@wi.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>Do I see a connection between wasting energy and terrorism?
>>
>>Not really. Today's terrorism is mainly a function of radical Islam's
>>drive to dominate the entire world.
>
>
> Vs. the American will to control its resources.
UK, Germany, France, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, Italy,
Austria, Russia, Japan, China would never think of
doing that!
SMH
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Cutting down the cost of washing machine powder
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/3b767149103b33f0?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 7:08 am
From: "john hamilton"
"Andrew Gabriel" <andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:hmc96s$ql3$2@news.eternal-september.org...
> In article
> <cd87b90b-94f0-4225-8ec8-27f34be98f47@o3g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
> "hr(bob) hofmann@att.net" <hrhofmann@att.net> writes:
>> On Feb 19, 1:59 pm, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
>>> john bently wrote:
>>> > Since most peoples clothes are not really that dirty as a general
>>> > rule, is
>>> > there not a simpler less expensive alternative that could be made up
>>> > to put
>>> > in a washing machine? Thanks for any advice.
>>>
>
> Bare in mind US washing soap and European washing detergent are
> completely different things, because the washing machines have
> completely different methods of washing.
>
> Andrew Gabriel
> [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
============================================================================
Thanks to all. Could you elaborate on how us and uk machines wash
differently?
== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 10:13 am
From: Gene S. Berkowitz
In article <hmc96s$ql3$2@news.eternal-september.org>,
andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk says...
> Bare in mind US washing soap and European washing detergent are
> completely different things, because the washing machines have
> completely different methods of washing.
This may have been true in the past, but the US market is
transitioning rapidly to Euro-style front loaders. Top loaders
are hardly even advertised anymore.
Until recently, many of the US-brand front loaders were built by
Electrolux AB.
Of course, ours are bigger than yours!
--Gene
==============================================================================
TOPIC: walking boots-- which are good?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/52b4735386145e8e?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 9:15 am
From: "Gordon"
"Andy Leighton" <andyl@azaal.plus.com> wrote in message
news:slrnho7v3c.8dr.andyl@azaal.plus.com...
> On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 07:40:52 -0800, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>
> That is complete rubbish. My Zamberlans (don't know the model) don't have
> goretex and they were definately not a low-end boot.
>
Ditto my Scarpas.....
== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 9:17 am
From: "Gordon"
"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:4b845b94$0$1658$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
>
> That's why GoreTex works especially well in boots. It _is_ protected
> properly. For jackets, the early ones had the GoreTex membrane
> unprotected.
>
But it is only capable of breathing as the leather that protects it
breathes...
== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 9:18 am
From: "Gordon"
"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:4b8558cb$0$1625$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
>
> Today, it would be exceedingly foolish to purchase hiking boots or trail
> shoes for wet conditions that were not GoreTex.
ABSOLUTE RUBBISH!
== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 9:22 am
From: "Gordon"
"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:4b8664c9$0$1625$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
>
> 1. GORE-TEX� lining (or other breathable waterproof membrane lining) for
> breathable waterproofness (nearly all mid to high end boots have this).
> NEVER buy hiking boots that lack a breathable waterproof membrane lining.
>
Again TOTAL TRIPE! Why bother with extra linings when you don't need them?
As I stated - the ability of goretex linings to breath is restricted by the
ability of the leather to breathe, so why bother with the goretex?
It's a gimmick designed to con punters.
== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 11:27 am
From: "Gordon"
"Peter Clinch" <p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:7un103FneaU1@mid.individual.net...
> SMS wrote:
>
>> Bottom line is that all the experts agree that you should _never_
>> purchase a pair of hiking boots, walking shoes, etc., that do not have a
>> GoreTex (or competing product) membrane, if you expect to have them ever
>> get wet.
>
> Sorry, that's just plain wrong.
>
I agree. In my experience most water ingression in a good pair of proofed
leather boots either comes over the top or wicks down un gaiter-protected
socks...
== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 2:56 pm
From: SMS
Gordon wrote:
> Again TOTAL TRIPE! Why bother with extra linings when you don't need
> them? As I stated - the ability of goretex linings to breath is
> restricted by the ability of the leather to breathe, so why bother with
> the goretex?
Fortunately, _you_ stating something over and over again does not make
it true! You need to understand how leather works. If you don't clog up
the pores with beeswax (like Sno-Seal) it does breath. It's not a
waterproof material.
If you're hiking or walking in wet conditions you want to be certain to
never buy shoes or boots that lack a breathable membrane. GoreTex is
one. In order of breathability, the ratings are:
eVent
Gore-Tex XCR
Gore-Tex (standard)
HydroSeal (The North Face)
Membrain (Marmot)
Sympatex, Conduit (Mountain Hardwear)
OmniTech (Columbia).
There are some other private label ones as well.
> It's a gimmick designed to con punters.
Keep telling yourself that. Ignore all the scientific evidence.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: 0bama. Hard at work making jobs. For .....
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/6e3f54eb393bd43b?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 3:20 pm
From: climber
On Feb 28, 12:29 pm, Winston_Smith <not_r...@bogus.net> wrote:
> http://www.fairus.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=22373&security=1...
> Reid Jobs Bill Gives Tax Breaks for Hiring Illegal Workers
>
> Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) unveiled his jobs bill last
> week that proposes tax exemptions and tax credits for employers who
> hire and retain workers - regardless of their immigration status.
> ...
> In doing so, Reid said he wanted to focus clearly on the "jobs
> message" he thought the Senate should be sending to the American
> people. (Roll Call, Feb. 16, 2010).
Reid is a weasly little cocksucker.
cole
== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 5:37 pm
From: "Bob F"
climber wrote:
> On Feb 28, 12:29 pm, Winston_Smith <not_r...@bogus.net> wrote:
>> http://www.fairus.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=22373&security=1...
>> Reid Jobs Bill Gives Tax Breaks for Hiring Illegal Workers
>>
>> Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) unveiled his jobs bill last
>> week that proposes tax exemptions and tax credits for employers who
>> hire and retain workers - regardless of their immigration status.
>> ...
>> In doing so, Reid said he wanted to focus clearly on the "jobs
>> message" he thought the Senate should be sending to the American
>> people. (Roll Call, Feb. 16, 2010).
>
> Reid is a weasly little cocksucker.
>
Hiring illegals is illegal. They don't need to make it illegal.
== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 7:30 pm
From: Beam Me Up Scotty
On 2/28/2010 8:37 PM, Bob F wrote:
> climber wrote:
>> On Feb 28, 12:29 pm, Winston_Smith <not_r...@bogus.net> wrote:
>>> http://www.fairus.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=22373&security=1...
>>> Reid Jobs Bill Gives Tax Breaks for Hiring Illegal Workers
>>>
>>> Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) unveiled his jobs bill last
>>> week that proposes tax exemptions and tax credits for employers who
>>> hire and retain workers - regardless of their immigration status.
>>> ...
>>> In doing so, Reid said he wanted to focus clearly on the "jobs
>>> message" he thought the Senate should be sending to the American
>>> people. (Roll Call, Feb. 16, 2010).
>>
>> Reid is a weasly little cocksucker.
>>
>
> Hiring illegals is illegal. They don't need to make it illegal.
>
>
Maybe they could make it illegal to *not enforce* the laws on "illegals".
Then the police/Feds would have a choice of putting the illegals in jail
and deport them or put their fellow police in jail.
== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 7:54 pm
From: "Rod Speed"
Beam Me Up Scotty wrote
> Bob F wrote
>> climber wrote
>>> Winston_Smith <not_r...@bogus.net> wrote
>>>> http://www.fairus.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=22373&security=1...
>>>> Reid Jobs Bill Gives Tax Breaks for Hiring Illegal Workers
>>>> Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) unveiled his jobs bill
>>>> last week that proposes tax exemptions and tax credits for
>>>> employers who hire and retain workers - regardless of their
>>>> immigration status. ...
>>>> In doing so, Reid said he wanted to focus clearly on the "jobs
>>>> message" he thought the Senate should be sending to the American
>>>> people. (Roll Call, Feb. 16, 2010).
>>> Reid is a weasly little cocksucker.
>> Hiring illegals is illegal. They don't need to make it illegal.
> Maybe they could make it illegal to *not enforce* the laws on "illegals".
Completely impractical, thats not done with anything.
> Then the police/Feds would have a choice of putting the
> illegals in jail and deport them or put their fellow police in jail.
Too hard to prove.
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