Frugal Living: 25 new messages in 8 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Apt Complex Laundry Facility or Portable, Compact Washer?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/cc45903df93c215d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Aug 21 2007 8:41 am
From: "Melissa"

"Five By Five" <5x5@5x5.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9992DBC5EAA9B5x55x5@207.115.33.102...
>
> Unfortunately I have gone from homeowner overseas to apartment renter in
> the USA these days (legal separation).
>
> For 17 years, I became accustomed to a front-loading washing machine
> (Bosch) which heated the water to a set temp and spun them nearly dry, and
> managed not to damage the clothes. The clothes were hung out to dry and
> not subjected to an electric dryer, not for the reason so much that the
> dryer could damage the clothes, but that the electricity was quite
> expensive. We lived in a dry climate, so drying was fast, and clothes
were
> never exposed to direct sunlight, but hung on a rack.
>
> Now I am faced either with using an apartment complex laundry facility---
> coin-operated at $1.25 a load---or perhaps buying a compact, portable
> washer I can stow in my closet when not using. Depending the price and
> quality of the compact (mini) washer, it could pay for itself in maybe 50
> loads? 100 loads? 200 loads? One would have to factor in the cost of
new
> clothes too...something that probably increases with the use of commercial
> washers.
>
> I am in the market for buying a compact/mini washer, probably a small
> version of the front-loading Bosch, weighted more towards product
> quality/reliability/durability than in just finding the cheapest price and
> in risking known warranty hassles. What experiences and/or information do
> you have?
>

They make stackable types, but do your research. Many of the dryers run on
110, and take forever to dry towels or jeans. They also sell the small units
separately, my MIL has a portable washer that hooks up in her sink. She's
happy with it...it's easy to roll into postition, and when not in use it's
another surface to use in her small kitchen. She lives alone, so she only
has a few loads a week. She got them at Sears, they are Kenmore brand I
believe.

Melissa

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Aug 21 2007 9:11 am
From: me@privacy.net

Five By Five <5x5@5x5.com> wrote:

>What experiences and/or information do
>you have?

maybe consider one of the new "condensing washers" from
LG?

one machine does BOTH washing and drying (by
condensing)..... but be prepared as they are pricey

what you think?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Top 10 money drains
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4b4f42b2c99e847d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Aug 21 2007 7:44 am
From: ""

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 01:14:49 GMT, Gordon <gonzo@alltomyself.com> wrote:

>> 7 Insurance; house, health, auto, life. ( add 'em up )
>
>Auto insurance isn't optional in many areas. If you get cought
>driving without insurance you could get hit with some very
>unfrugal fines. Around here they have a form called an SR-22.
>If you are required to file an SR-22, you have to find an insurance
>company the will issue it (not all do). And the ones that do are
>the sub-prime, high rate insurers. Very unfrugal.
>>
>>
I was speaking of over-insuring.
If you follow your insurance agents advice,
you'll NEVER have enough coverage.

If you're the average responsible person,
it's amazing how much total $$ you spend on insurance.

....how much is "enough" insurance ?

and, why do I have to buy auto insurance
to cover myself,
and to cover the "uninsured motorist" ??

<rj>

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Aug 21 2007 7:58 am
From: "Chloe"

"<RJ>" <baranick@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:s6ulc3tl8ods41i2tpf1mhjfu1pn0r2nb8@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 01:14:49 GMT, Gordon <gonzo@alltomyself.com> wrote:
>snip>
> and, why do I have to buy auto insurance
> to cover myself,
> and to cover the "uninsured motorist" ??

The part of the coverage that's explicitly called "uninsured motorist" pays
YOU if you suffer damages as a result of the fault of someone with no
insurance. I guess if you don't want it, you shouldn't have to buy it, but
the point is that it doesn't pay them.

Your liability coverage could end up paying someone with no insurance, but
only if the accident was your fault. That's pretty much the whole point of
buying liability insurance.

Might be interesting to you to take a read through your policy some time.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Aug 21 2007 8:01 am
From: "Chloe"

"val189" <gwehrenb@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:1187704978.349738.292160@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 21, 7:51 am, "Chloe" <justsa...@spam.com> wrote:
>
>> I did that for a while too. Fortunately I stopped after I met a woman who
>> got an infection so severe and fast-moving the doctors actually talked
>> about
>> amputating part of her hand.
>
> Yikes!! Top NYC nail tech on Oprah once advised that if any
> manicurist even LOOKS like she or he is fixin' to cut the
> cuticle....run screaming from the shop. At the very least, bring your
> own implements.

Seems impractical to buy all the implements they use, especially the power
sanders, etc. I don't know now you'd predict a cut in advance, but even if
you could, you can certainly pick up an infection from even a break in the
skin too small for you to detect.

To me, it's one of those things where the reward just plain ain't worth the
risk--even though I acknowledge it's pretty difficult to get as perfect a
manicure via DIY. I guess everyone's mileage would vary, though.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Hotel surprises
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f2a8502259075190?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Aug 21 2007 7:48 am
From: ""

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 18:17:31 -0400, jdoe <jdoe@aol.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 16:48:21 -0400, Ward Abbott <presby@terian.com>
>wrote:
>>
>>Do you really believe that if you check into a Hilton property....they
>>send Parrasite Hilton a check? Sorry....but she is living off
>>trusts....and pays no INCOME TAX...She doesn't make any income from a
>>Hilton Trust.
>>
>and how do you know that she pays no income tax, and even if your
>assertion is correct the trusts that fund her pay taxes

The wealthy don't pay taxes.....

They pay "contributions" to the Republican Party.

<rj>

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Aug 21 2007 8:32 am
From: clams casino

val189 wrote:

>On Aug 19, 9:07 am, clams casino <PeterGrif...@drunkin-clam.com> wrote:
>\
>\
>
>
>>An example of an excellent one is near Dullas airport.
>>
>>
>
>
>The suspense is killin' me - Dallas or Dulles?
>
>
>
>
OK - It was Dulles / Reston, Va.

You can take a breath now.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Aug 21 2007 9:14 am
From: jdoe

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 07:48:44 -0700, "<RJ>" <baranick@localnet.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 18:17:31 -0400, jdoe <jdoe@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 16:48:21 -0400, Ward Abbott <presby@terian.com>
>>wrote:
>>>
>>>Do you really believe that if you check into a Hilton property....they
>>>send Parrasite Hilton a check? Sorry....but she is living off
>>>trusts....and pays no INCOME TAX...She doesn't make any income from a
>>>Hilton Trust.
>>>
>>and how do you know that she pays no income tax, and even if your
>>assertion is correct the trusts that fund her pay taxes
>
>
>The wealthy don't pay taxes.....
>
>They pay "contributions" to the Republican Party.
>
Maybe if you weren't such a dolt you would have been able for
accumulate your own wealth and then you wouldn't make such assinine
statements
__________________________________________
Never argue with an idiot.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: wholesale sport shoes,clothing,electronics in china www.fashion-sky.com
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/55277860df7c2979?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Aug 21 2007 9:15 am
From: fashion-sky@hotmail.com

Dear my friend
It is our pleasure to meet you here.
we are wholesaler sport shoes,clothing,electrons in Fujian of China.
our website: http://www.fashion-sky.com
We are professional and honest wholesaler of all kinds of brand
sneaks and apparel.the products
our company supply are as follows:
1).Nike Jordans
Jordan 1 jordan 1.5 jordan 2 jordan 3 jordan 3.5 jordan 4 jordan 5
jordan 5.5

jordan 6 jordan 6.5 jordan 7 jordan 8 jordan 9 jordan 9.5 jordan 10
jordan 11 jordan

12 jordan 13 jordan 13.5 jordan 14 jordan 15 jordan 16 jordan 17
jordan 18 jordan

18.5 jordan 19 jordan 20 jordan 21 jordan 21.5 jordan 22 jordan King
jordan Dub Zero

Jordan 23 Jordan 7.5
2).Air Force One Air Force one (low) Air Force one (High) Air Force
one (Mid) Air

Force one (clear) Air Force One 25 year
3).SHOX Shox R3 Shox R4 Shox R5 Shox TL1 Shox TL2 Shox TL3 Shox NZ
Shox OZ Shox

Turbo Show GO Shox CL Shox Coqnescenti Shox Energia Shox Explodine
Shox Monster Shox

Rhythmic Shox Warrior
4).Bape Shoes Bape Bape (transparent)
5).Air max AirMax 90 AirMax 95 AirMax 97 AirMax 2003 AirMax 2004
AirMax 2005 Air Max

2006 AirMax 180 AirMax LTD AirMax TN AirMax solas AirMax 87 AirMax
Rift
6).Puma Puma Rpt2 Puma SK6 Puma Jayfi Puma Cir Puma Speed Puma Repli
Puma Future Cat

Puma Mostro Puma Lifestyle
7).Dunk SB Dunk High Dunk Low
8).Timberland Timberland High Timberland Low
9).Adidas Adidas 35 Adicolor Country city sense Adidas NBA
11).Prada & Gucci Prada Gucci
12).Footballer Shoes Footballer
13).Locaste
14).converse & Reebok converse Reebok
15).D&G shoes
16).Dsquared2 shoes
17).James shoes
18).Nike King
9).Children shoes Jordan Shox
20).Women shoes Women Jordans Women Shox R3 Women Shox R4 Women AirMax
95&97 Women

AirMax 03&06 Women Dunk Women Shox NZ Women AF1
21).sandal & baboosh Nike Puma Gucci Prada
CLOTHES 1).Bape 2).ED Hardy 3).BBC 4).CLH 5).LRG 6).Artful Dodger
Hoodies 7).GINO

GREEN GLOBAL 8).10 Deep 9).A&F Coat 11).Jersey NBA Jersey Football
Jersey 12).Juicy

Bikini 13).Adidas Coat 14).F1 Coat 15).D&G Coat 16).Superman Coat
17).NBA Coat
JEAN 1).E&D Jeans 2).BBC Jeans 3).BAPE Jeans 4).D&G Jeans 5).EVSIU
Jeans 6).Red

monkey 7).COOGI Jeans
T-shirt 1).POLO 2007 polo(women) 2007 POLO IIII(Men) POLO (stripe)
polo (small )
2).Lacoste Lacoste (LONG) Lacoste (SHORT) 3).Name Brand shirt D&G
Shirt Giorgio

Armani TN Shirt 4).BBC T-shirt 5).LRG & gina green glalal 6).Triumvir
7).ED handy

8).Evsiu 9).R.M.B 10).CLOT
Burse & Handbag 1).LV Bag 2).Gucci Bag 3).Dior Bag 4).Chanel Bag
5).Fendi Bag

6).Coach Bag 7).Burberrys Bag 8).Prada Bag 9).Man Leisure Bag 11).D&G
bag 12).nike

bag 13).Wallet 14).Suitcase
Electronics 1).Vertu Mobile 2).New iphone Mobile 3).Nokia Mobile
4).moto Mobile

5).PSP Game & memory card 6).Sony Mobile 7).Samsung Mobile 8).Ipod
nano 9).Sony PS3

10).Laptops IBM laptops DELL laptops Sony laptops ASUS laptops
CAP 1).ED Hardy Cap 2).New Bape & NY Cap 3).RMC Cap 4).New era NBA
5).F1 6).Chanel

7).D&G 8).gucci 9).LV 10).Prada 11).PUMA 12).wool
WATCH 1).Rolex 2).Omega 3).Cartier 4).Chanel 5).Piaget 6).Breitling
7).Bvlgari

8).Corum
Sunglasses 1).Gucci Sunglasses 2).D&G Sunglasses 3).Dior Sunglasses
4).LV Sunglasses

5).Chanel Sunglasses 6).Prada Sunglasses 7).Versace Sunglasses
8).Giorgio Armani
Strap 1).Bape Strap 2).D&G Strap 3).Gucci Strap 4).LV Strap 5).Scarf
Other 1).Lighter

size chart
Men Size:
US: 7 8 8.5 9 9.5 10 10.5 11 11.5 12 13 14 15
UK: 6 7 7.5 8 8.5 9 9.5 10 10.5 11 12 13 14
EUR: 40 41 42 42.5 43 44 44.5 45 45.5 46 47.5 48 49
Women Size:
US: 5 5.5 6 6.5 7 7.5 8 8.5
UK: 2.5 3 3.5 4 4.5 5 5.5 6
EUR: 35.5 36 36.5 37.5 38 38.5 39 40

Kid's
US: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 7.5 8 8.5 9 9.5 10 10.5 11 11.5 12 12.5 13 13.5
UK: 13 1 2 3 4 5 6 6.5 7 7.5 8 8.5 9 9.5 10 10.5 11 11.5 12 12.5
EUR:17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 24.5 25 25.5 26 26.5 27 27.5 28 29 30 30.5
31

Clothing Size:
S M L XL XXL XXXL XXXXL XXXXXL

7.because the space of the website is limited,we can also supply many
other products which be not showed out in our site. if you have the
photos of the products you need , we are pleasure to supply for your
orders.
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1. top quality.all our products have top quality.
2. most rational price. we offer the most competitive price to you to
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Europe, Middle

East, Southeast Asia etc..
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size you need , also include kid's.
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our reason, we will refund the money you paid.
Hope sincerely to have glad and long term business relationship with
you.
If you are interested in our products and have any problem, welcome
to
contact us.
Please trust us , we will be your best choice !!!
Website : http://www.fashion-sky.com
MSN and E-mail: fashion-sky@hotmail.com
Yahoo ID:mallinchina@yahoo.com.cn
Michael
Fashion Footwear Industrial Co.,Ltd.(Fujian,CHINA)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Simpler solar attics
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/cfecec12fcff406b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Aug 21 2007 10:31 am
From: nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

Laren Corie writes:

> The ultimate performance solutions are: 1) Isolate the solar gain space,
> to let it go cold at night. If you eliminate all of the times that the sun
> does not heat the room, you eliminate 100% of the backup heating, so you
> don't need high Rvalue windows...

Maybe no windows at all, just plastic film glazing.

> 2) Nighttime window insulation. Basically the same strategy, but you are
> closing the insulated door on the glass, instead of the whole room.
> There can be problems.. some of them human.

Historically, most people tire of moving insulation twice a day. Twice a year
seems OK. Or automatically filling a glazing cavity with soap bubble foam
at night. My favorite "movable insulation" is a big fan with 2 thermostats
in an insulated wall between a sunspace and a living space.

> 3) Reduce the glazing area considerably, and get your Solar gain, via
> simple, low cost wall type air panels, or a single glazed sunspace,
> over the south wall.

We might rethink how we use spaces. People seldom look out windows at night.
They cover black holes with curtains. A living space might only have 1-2% of
the floorspace as windows for small views. Picture a core living space behind
enclosed porches, or "viewspaces" with lots of glazing for large views. During
the day, move into a viewspace and steal some heat or AC from the living space
with an occupancy sensor and a thermostat and a fan.

A 32x32x8' tall living space with 16'-deep SE and SW viewspaces and
a 48'x48' footprint might have 24ft^2 of R4 windows with 6 Btu/h-F. An R40
ceiling and R30 walls would add 32x32/40 = 26 and 33, with 30 more for
30 cfm of air leaks, if it's tight, for a total conductance of 95 Btu/h-F.

With 4 American Craftsman 6068-2 6'x80" U0.48 sliding glass doors ($269
each at Home Depot) or 320 ft^2 of R4 windows, a 16'x48' SE viewspace
would have a 123 Btu/h-F conductance. Two more doors would give a 16'x32'
SW space 61 Btu/h-F. The glazing might have overhangs to reduce summer
sun and dark mesh curtains to reduce light levels for people, eg 80%
greenhouse shadecloth, which preserves views, like a dark window screen.

If the average living space temp is 65 F and we spend 4 hours per day in
each 70 F viewspace (Henry Mercer built bonfires on the roof and moved from
desk to desk as the sun moved in his 6-story concrete castle in Doylestown
PA) on an average 30 F January day in Phila, the house needs 24h(65-30)95
+ 4h(70-34)123 + 4h(70-34)61 = 79.8K + 17.7K + 8.8K = 106K Btu/day of heat.
With 34.1K from 300 kWh/mo of frugal indoor electrical use, we need 72K
more solar heat, which might come from a solar attic.

The solar attics of Soldiers Grove (see http://www.ece.villanova.edu/~nick)
can be improved. They blow warm air down into a building during the day,
with a motorized damper to let the attic stay cool at night. Some have
rock bed or hypocaust stores, but few store heat for more than 1 day.

A new attic might have a $1/ft^2 corrugated R1 Dynaglas polycarbonate
20-year south roof with a 60 degree slope and 90% solar transmission.
NREL says 620 Btu/ft^2 falls on the ground and 1000 falls on a south wall
on an average January day in Phila, so 1 ft^2 of roof would collect
0.9(1000sin(60)+620cos(60)) = 1058 Btu/day.

Nathan Hurst's "Low-cost active heat storage" story in the July-September
2007 Issue 100 of ReNew (http:www.ata.org.au) shows how to collect solar heat
with a Mazda car radiator and its 16 watt electric fan. (I have a $35 1984
Dodge Omni radiator below my living room floor) With an 800 Btu/h-F air-water
thermal conductance like MagicAire's 2'x2' SHW2347 duct heat exchanger, we
could store 0.75x72K/6h = 9K Btu in 140 F water in 6 hours on an average day
with a 140+9K/800 = 151 F attic air temp. A radiator in a box below an attic
floor can both store and distribute heat, like this, viewed in a fixed font:

upper g
attic l
| | a
| | z
~ ~ i south -->
| | n
| vertical | motorized / g
| duct | damper /
| | /
| | day /
| | /
| | /
| | / night attic floor
---| -------------............----------------------------------
| . r .
| . d room a d.
| . a air d f a. f
| . m out i m.
| ==> . p a a ==> p. a <== room air in
| . e t e.
| . r o n r. n
| . r .
-------------------------------------
| |
| duct to |
| room floor |
| |
| |
~ ~

To collect heat, open the motorized damper and run the radiator fan.
They typically last 3-4K hours at 225 F. If the fan lifetime doubles with
every 10 C decrease, it might last 70K hours at 150 F. To distribute heat,
close the motorized damper and run the room fan. The passive dampers could
be plastic film over hardware cloth, aka "the 7-cent solution" invented by
Doug Kelbaugh (now Dean of the UMich Architecture school) in Princeton in
1973. The motorized damper could be polyiso foamboard with an auto windshield
wiper motor and limit switches or Honeywell's $50 6161B1000 damper actuator,
which only uses 2 watts as it moves up to 45 in-lb. The room air outlet would
also have a passive damper that opens out of the page into another vertical
duct or closet to move warm air down into the room. The floor might have more
motorized dampers over polycarbonate film to bounce light and heat down into
rooms during the day.

If 1 ft^2 of glazing gains 1058 Btu/day and loses 6h(151-34)1ft^2/R1,
the net gain is 356, so we might need 50.4K/356 = 142 ft^2 of glazing.
A 4'x48' strip would do. At 140 F, we could make hot water for showers
with a $60 1"x300' piece of pressurized black PE pipe in a heat storage
tank and a simple graywater heat exchanger (eg 2 uninsulated 55 gallon
plastic drums) to add heat to the house.

On an average day, with an 800 Btu/h-F radiator conductance, we can heat
the living space with 70 + (70-30)95/800 = 75 F water. If the viewspace
use patterns don't change on cloudy days, we can store 5x72K = 360K Btu
for 5 cloudy days in a row in 360K/(140-75) = 5538 pounds of water, ie
665 gallons, in an STSS tank or a 4'x8'x3'-tall plywood box lined with
a single folded 10'x16' piece of EPDM rubber.

Nick

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Aug 21 2007 11:07 am
From: ransley

On Aug 21, 10:31 am, nicksans...@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> Laren Corie writes:
> > The ultimate performance solutions are: 1) Isolate the solar gain space,
> > to let it go cold at night. If you eliminate all of the times that the sun
> > does not heat the room, you eliminate 100% of the backup heating, so you
> > don't need high Rvalue windows...
>
> Maybe no windows at all, just plastic film glazing.
>
> > 2) Nighttime window insulation. Basically the same strategy, but you are
> > closing the insulated door on the glass, instead of the whole room.
> > There can be problems.. some of them human.
>
> Historically, most people tire of moving insulation twice a day. Twice a year
> seems OK. Or automatically filling a glazing cavity with soap bubble foam
> at night. My favorite "movable insulation" is a big fan with 2 thermostats
> in an insulated wall between a sunspace and a living space.
>
> > 3) Reduce the glazing area considerably, and get your Solar gain, via
> > simple, low cost wall type air panels, or a single glazed sunspace,
> > over the south wall.
>
> We might rethink how we use spaces. People seldom look out windows at night.
> They cover black holes with curtains. A living space might only have 1-2% of
> the floorspace as windows for small views. Picture a core living space behind
> enclosed porches, or "viewspaces" with lots of glazing for large views. During
> the day, move into a viewspace and steal some heat or AC from the living space
> with an occupancy sensor and a thermostat and a fan.
>
> A 32x32x8' tall living space with 16'-deep SE and SW viewspaces and
> a 48'x48' footprint might have 24ft^2 of R4 windows with 6 Btu/h-F. An R40
> ceiling and R30 walls would add 32x32/40 = 26 and 33, with 30 more for
> 30 cfm of air leaks, if it's tight, for a total conductance of 95 Btu/h-F.
>
> With 4 American Craftsman 6068-2 6'x80" U0.48 sliding glass doors ($269
> each at Home Depot) or 320 ft^2 of R4 windows, a 16'x48' SE viewspace
> would have a 123 Btu/h-F conductance. Two more doors would give a 16'x32'
> SW space 61 Btu/h-F. The glazing might have overhangs to reduce summer
> sun and dark mesh curtains to reduce light levels for people, eg 80%
> greenhouse shadecloth, which preserves views, like a dark window screen.
>
> If the average living space temp is 65 F and we spend 4 hours per day in
> each 70 F viewspace (Henry Mercer built bonfires on the roof and moved from
> desk to desk as the sun moved in his 6-story concrete castle in Doylestown
> PA) on an average 30 F January day in Phila, the house needs 24h(65-30)95
> + 4h(70-34)123 + 4h(70-34)61 = 79.8K + 17.7K + 8.8K = 106K Btu/day of heat.
> With 34.1K from 300 kWh/mo of frugal indoor electrical use, we need 72K
> more solar heat, which might come from a solar attic.
>
> The solar attics of Soldiers Grove (seehttp://www.ece.villanova.edu/~nick)
> can be improved. They blow warm air down into a building during the day,
> with a motorized damper to let the attic stay cool at night. Some have
> rock bed or hypocaust stores, but few store heat for more than 1 day.
>
> A new attic might have a $1/ft^2 corrugated R1 Dynaglas polycarbonate
> 20-year south roof with a 60 degree slope and 90% solar transmission.
> NREL says 620 Btu/ft^2 falls on the ground and 1000 falls on a south wall
> on an average January day in Phila, so 1 ft^2 of roof would collect
> 0.9(1000sin(60)+620cos(60)) = 1058 Btu/day.
>
> Nathan Hurst's "Low-cost active heat storage" story in the July-September
> 2007 Issue 100 of ReNew (http:www.ata.org.au) shows how to collect solar heat
> with a Mazda car radiator and its 16 watt electric fan. (I have a $35 1984
> Dodge Omni radiator below my living room floor) With an 800 Btu/h-F air-water
> thermal conductance like MagicAire's 2'x2' SHW2347 duct heat exchanger, we
> could store 0.75x72K/6h = 9K Btu in 140 F water in 6 hours on an average day
> with a 140+9K/800 = 151 F attic air temp. A radiator in a box below an attic
> floor can both store and distribute heat, like this, viewed in a fixed font:
>
> upper g
> attic l
> | | a
> | | z
> ~ ~ i south -->
> | | n
> | vertical | motorized / g
> | duct | damper /
> | | /
> | | day /
> | | /
> | | /
> | | / night attic floor
> ---| -------------............----------------------------------
> | . r .
> | . d room a d.
> | . a air d f a. f
> | . m out i m.
> | ==> . p a a ==> p. a <== room air in
> | . e t e.
> | . r o n r. n
> | . r .
> -------------------------------------
> | |
> | duct to |
> | room floor |
> | |
> | |
> ~ ~
>
> To collect heat, open the motorized damper and run the radiator fan.
> They typically last 3-4K hours at 225 F. If the fan lifetime doubles with
> every 10 C decrease, it might last 70K hours at 150 F. To distribute heat,
> close the motorized damper and run the room fan. The passive dampers could
> be plastic film over hardware cloth, aka "the 7-cent solution" invented by
> Doug Kelbaugh (now Dean of the UMich Architecture school) in Princeton in
> 1973. The motorized damper could be polyiso foamboard with an auto windshield
> wiper motor and limit switches or Honeywell's $50 6161B1000 damper actuator,
> which only uses 2 watts as it moves up to 45 in-lb. The room air outlet would
> also have a passive damper that opens out of the page into another vertical
> duct or closet to move warm air down into the room. The floor might have more
> motorized dampers over polycarbonate film to bounce light and heat down into
> rooms during the day.
>
> If 1 ft^2 of glazing gains 1058 Btu/day and loses 6h(151-34)1ft^2/R1,
> the net gain is 356, so we might need 50.4K/356 = 142 ft^2 of glazing.
> A 4'x48' strip would do. At 140 F, we could make hot water for showers
> with a $60 1"x300' piece of pressurized black PE pipe in a heat storage
> tank and a simple graywater heat exchanger (eg 2 uninsulated 55 gallon
> plastic drums) to add heat to the house.
>
> On an average day, with an 800 Btu/h-F radiator conductance, we can heat
> the living space with 70 + (70-30)95/800 = 75 F water. If the viewspace
> use patterns don't change on cloudy days, we can store 5x72K = 360K Btu
> for 5 cloudy days in a row in 360K/(140-75) = 5538 pounds of water, ie
> 665 gallons, in an STSS tank or a 4'x8'x3'-tall plywood box lined with
> a single folded 10'x16' piece of EPDM rubber.
>
> Nick

Name anybody you know that moves insulation twice a day or twice a
year for that matter, Soap bubbles, I think you have had to many
bubbles nick, we need more math to confirm this idea of yours.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Aug 21 2007 11:37 am
From: Torrey Hills

Wow, thank you for the posting. Really enjoyed it.

Ken

Opportunities are never lost. The other fellow takes those you miss.

| Torrey Hills Technologies, LLC |
| www.threerollmill.com

|
| www.torreyhillstech.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Who loves ya, Rush?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/50fc4bce846b7dea?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 8 ==
Date: Tues, Aug 21 2007 10:41 am
From: bearclaw@cruller.invalid

In article <46c86b4c$0$30660$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com>,
"ChairMan" <why4@fu.com> wrote:

> And I showed you a study that illustrates that their ILLEGAL actions
> create even more POOR people along with many other facts that you
> can't seem to dispute.

No, you copied and pasted from and then linked to a website filled with
justification (much of it contrived from whole cloth). BFD. There are
lots of organizations (on both sides of the issue) exactly like your
"Center for Immigration Studies" whose sole purpose is to construct
palatable contrivances to support its original xenophobic agenda.

For anyone interested in where "ChairMan" sits on the issue, the
"think tank" he steals his material from was born of the unification of
funding of several racist and white supremacist organizations after
they realized their lunatic agenda was much too extreme for the
mainstream American public.

Naturally, "ChairMan" is not above lying:

> From the Center for Immigration Studies which is an independent,
> non-partisan, non-profit research organization founded in 1985.

In truth, the CIS is much more about the following:

Founded in 1985 as a think tank to support the more activist work of
the anti-immigrant Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR),
CIS describes itself as ³independent² and ³nonpartisan,² but its
studies, reports, and media releases consistently support its
restrictionist agenda and it works closely on Capitol Hill with
Republican Party immigration restrictionists. However, CIS has achieved
credibility with the media and in think tank circles because of its
lack of the kind of strident anti-immigrant rhetoric associated with
many restrictionist groups, its willingness to invite pro-immigrant
voices to its forums, and the scholarly format of its reports.

CIS publishes books, reports, papers, and monthly backgrounders. Its
analysis on such issues as immigrant voting and electoral
redistricting, impacts on low-wage and high-skilled workers, and tax
impacts are closely followed by immigration experts of all persuasions.
In the mid-1990s, immigration restrictionists, boosted by findings of
congressional commissions, seemed to be on the verge of passing
legislation to turn the legislative tide that had favored immigration
flows since the 1986 amnesty. But largely because of lobbying by a
right-left, corporate-pro-immigrant coalition in which high-tech
industries played a leading role, immigration restrictionist groups
like CIS and FAIR saw their restrictionist agenda die in Congress.
Lately, as concerns about the plight of low-wage labor, outsourcing,
and national security merge, CIS and restrictionism in general are once
again gaining a new hearing in Congress.

CIS has also been critiqued as being part of a network of
anti-immigrant groups that cater to a white supremacist constituency by
right-wing economic libertarians who believe in the benefits of mass
and unfettered immigration. A Wall Street Journal op-ed (June 15,
2004), that was widely praised and circulated by pro-immigrant groups,
reported that despite the fact that CIS ³may strike right-wing poses in
the press,² it and other like-minded groups ³support big government,
mock federalism, deride free markets, and push a cultural agenda
abhorrent to any self-respecting social conservative.² A follow-up
article in the Wall Street Journal titled ³Borderline Republicans²
described the anti-immigration network this way: ³CIS, FAIR,
NumbersUSA, ProjectUSA&lsqauo;and more than a half-dozen similar groups that
Republicans have become disturbingly comfortable with&lsqauo;were founded or
funded (or both) by John Tanton. In addition to trying to stop
immigration to the U.S., appropriate population control measures for
Dr. Tanton and his network include promoting China¹s one-child policy,
sterilizing Third World women, and wider use of RU-486.² Replying to
this charge, Krikorian wrote in National Review Online that CIS does
not take a ³position on anything that does not involve U.S. immigration
policy.²

Personally, I have to wonder if the school that rejected your
grandchild did so not so much because of immigration concerns, but
because you made your despicable hatred so repugnantly apparent.
Perhaps the thought of having anyone from your genetic line involved in
their school made them ill.

For those inclined to support "ChairMan" and his dross, I would remind
you that building fences to keep others out also precisely fits the
agenda of those who would build the same fences to keep YOU in.

== 2 of 8 ==
Date: Tues, Aug 21 2007 10:46 am
From: bearclaw@cruller.invalid

In article <46c86b4c$0$30660$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com>,
"ChairMan" <why4@fu.com> wrote:

> *You* might not want to acknowledge the the FACT that they are illegal
> immigrants, but you are the minority.

Personally, I LOVE the challenge of being in the minority, especially
when it comes to politics:

"The test of courage comes when we are in the minority. The test of
tolerance comes when we are in the majority."

I say quite confidently that you have peremptorily acceded your loss in
the test of tolerance, if you are correct about the majority opinion (of
which BTW, I have seen no evidence).

== 3 of 8 ==
Date: Tues, Aug 21 2007 10:48 am
From: bearclaw@cruller.invalid

In article <46c86b4c$0$30660$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com>,
"ChairMan" <why4@fu.com> wrote:

> To bad we can't revoke citizenship from those who don't respect or
> understand what a great country this is.

What, you want to give over the country to ungrammatical hicks without a
clue? Of course you do. Then your inbred genetic line can get into
Harvard without knowing how spel.

== 4 of 8 ==
Date: Tues, Aug 21 2007 10:49 am
From: bearclaw@cruller.invalid

In article <46c82a84$0$24097$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
"Chloe" <justsayno@spam.com> wrote:

> Civility usually works best for me if I'm having a discussion with someone I
> disagree with. How does it work for you?

Not well for Usenet. See me IRL. You would never know.

== 5 of 8 ==
Date: Tues, Aug 21 2007 10:52 am
From: bearclaw@cruller.invalid

In article <46c86bb5$0$30674$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com>,
"ChairMan" <why4@fu.com> wrote:

> Can't dispute the facts can ya, so you snip them and your bigoted ass goes
> for personal attacks.

> I think it's real clear who the racist fuckwit is here. Would you like a
> mirror?

Okay, I concede: I am definitely prejudiced against racist hicks and
mealy-mouthed pretenders to knowledge, so populous in this thread.

== 6 of 8 ==
Date: Tues, Aug 21 2007 11:58 am
From: BeaForoni@msn.com

On Aug 21, 10:52 am, bearc...@cruller.invalid wrote:
> In article <46c86bb5$0$30674$9a6e1...@unlimited.newshosting.com>,
>
> "ChairMan" <w...@fu.com> wrote:
> > Can't dispute the facts can ya, so you snip them and your bigoted ass goes
> > for personal attacks.
> > I think it's real clear who the racist fuckwit is here. Would you like a
> > mirror?
>
> Okay, I concede: I am definitely prejudiced against racist hicks and
> mealy-mouthed pretenders to knowledge, so populous in this thread.

Thought I would respond to the biggest mouth on this subject.

I married a Mexican national. He was here in this country illegally.
Through the marriage he was able to get a green card and "get a good
job", (his words).

I think allowing people to immagrate to this country unimpeded is
wrong on so many levels. Mostly because it lowers the standard of
living for everyone except the highest class of society.

The problem is NOT racial. If there were not so many undocumented
immagrants we would be able to absorb more people from places in
Africa and Asia.

Also, it is not fair to the people of Mexico and Cental America. If
these people were forced to stay home then their leaders would be
forced to address the problems of poverty and unemployement.

I am very left wing in my thinking. I have been accussed of being
Marxist, but this problem of opening our borders to third world
countries is not good for America.

== 7 of 8 ==
Date: Tues, Aug 21 2007 12:15 pm
From: "Chloe"

<bearclaw@cruller.invalid> wrote in message
news:bearclaw-9023FF.12491621082007@news.supernews.com...
> In article <46c82a84$0$24097$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
> "Chloe" <justsayno@spam.com> wrote:
>
>> Civility usually works best for me if I'm having a discussion with
>> someone I
>> disagree with. How does it work for you?
>
> Not well for Usenet. See me IRL. You would never know.

In other words, you'd be afraid to talk to someone IRL the way you talk to
people who disagree with you online. Makes sense. I would be, too.

Where I live, it takes a lot less than phrases like "your mewling inbred
grandchildren" or " you are nothing more than a swastika-swinging,
mean-spirited racist asshole who deserves every insult, every deprivation,
every theft of dignity his grandchild suffers" or "perhaps the thought of
having anyone from your genetic line involved in their school made them ill"
to actually get a person beaten up or shot.

Nonetheless, I'd submit that the above doesn't actually do a lot in terms of
swaying the opinion of the target over to your side of the argument, nor
even really impresses or convinces anyone else who's reading, either. But
it's nice *you* think it's working. That's what really matters.

== 8 of 8 ==
Date: Tues, Aug 21 2007 12:26 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

BeaForoni@msn.com wrote:
> On Aug 21, 10:52 am, bearc...@cruller.invalid wrote:
>> In article <46c86bb5$0$30674$9a6e1...@unlimited.newshosting.com>,
>>
>> "ChairMan" <w...@fu.com> wrote:
>>> Can't dispute the facts can ya, so you snip them and your bigoted
>>> ass goes for personal attacks.
>>> I think it's real clear who the racist fuckwit is here. Would you
>>> like a mirror?
>>
>> Okay, I concede: I am definitely prejudiced against racist hicks and
>> mealy-mouthed pretenders to knowledge, so populous in this thread.
>
> Thought I would respond to the biggest mouth on this subject.
>
> I married a Mexican national. He was here in this country illegally.
> Through the marriage he was able to get a green card and "get a good
> job", (his words).
>
> I think allowing people to immagrate to this country unimpeded is
> wrong on so many levels. Mostly because it lowers the standard of
> living for everyone except the highest class of society.
>
> The problem is NOT racial. If there were not so many undocumented
> immagrants we would be able to absorb more people from places in
> Africa and Asia.
>
> Also, it is not fair to the people of Mexico and Cental America. If
> these people were forced to stay home then their leaders would be
> forced to address the problems of poverty and unemployement.

Not even possible when the roman catholic church is encouraging them
to keep pumping out FAR more kids than their economy can ever support.

> I am very left wing in my thinking. I have been accussed
> of being Marxist, but this problem of opening our borders
> to third world countries is not good for America.

Then why did you get involved in it ? You one of those hypocrites ?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: www.21cn-shoes.com wholesale nike shoes air jordans puma gucci prada
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/50685fa2a7aab91e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Let's Unite Against Jews and Mongrels!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/073e1531cdad2191?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Aug 21 2007 11:35 am
From: "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)"

Nenad Milicevic - The Aryan Serb wrote:
> Rise up and shine, white sons and daughters
> Rise up and shine, you gotta fight to part those waters
> When we swim in the light, all will be okay
> The black, yellow and brown man will wash away.
> ------------------------------
> Let's break the chains of Jewish and black domination! Unite, white
> brothers and sisters, and let's defeat those who oppress our white
> heritage!
>
> Our skin is our uniform!
>
> Serbian Committee for Aryan Defence
> Nenad Milicevic, executive
> ICQ 208030128
> endymion@deadspam.com
> endimion@myrealbox.com
>

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Aug 21 2007 11:37 am
From: "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)"

Please keep your racist crap out of rec.travel.europe!

Nenad Milicevic - The Aryan Serb wrote:

> Rise up and shine, white sons and daughters
> Rise up and shine, you gotta fight to part those waters
> When we swim in the light, all will be okay
> The black, yellow and brown man will wash away.
> ------------------------------
> Let's break the chains of Jewish and black domination! Unite, white
> brothers and sisters, and let's defeat those who oppress our white
> heritage!
>
> Our skin is our uniform!
>
> Serbian Committee for Aryan Defence
> Nenad Milicevic, executive
> ICQ 208030128
> endymion@deadspam.com
> endimion@myrealbox.com
>

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Aug 21 2007 11:58 am
From: ampana

On 21 août, 20:37, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)"
<evgm...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Please keep your racist crap out of rec.travel.europe!
>
> Nenad Milicevic - The Aryan Serb wrote:
>
> > Rise up and shine, white sons and daughters
> > Rise up and shine, you gotta fight to part those waters
> > When we swim in the light, all will be okay
> > The black, yellow and brown man will wash away.
> > ------------------------------
> > Let's break the chains of Jewish and black domination! Unite, white
> > brothers and sisters, and let's defeat those who oppress our white
> > heritage!
>
> > Our skin is our uniform!
>
> > Serbian Committee for Aryan Defence
> > Nenad Milicevic, executive
> > ICQ 208030128
> > endym...@deadspam.com
> > endim...@myrealbox.com

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Aug 21 2007 11:59 am
From: ampana

On 21 août, 20:35, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)"
<evgm...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Nenad Milicevic - The Aryan Serb wrote:
>
> > Rise up and shine, white sons and daughters
> > Rise up and shine, you gotta fight to part those waters
> > When we swim in the light, all will be okay
> > The black, yellow and brown man will wash away.
> > ------------------------------
> > Let's break the chains of Jewish and black domination! Unite, white
> > brothers and sisters, and let's defeat those who oppress our white
> > heritage!
>
> > Our skin is our uniform!
>
> > Serbian Committee for Aryan Defence
> > Nenad Milicevic, executive
> > ICQ 208030128
> > endym...@deadspam.com
> > endim...@myrealbox.com

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Tuesday, August 21, 2007

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