Frugal Living: 25 new messages in 13 topics

Thursday, September 6, 2007

25 new messages in 13 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: STURDY Backpack Recommendation, please
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8fd08fd65ef0938b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Sep 5 2007 12:38 pm
From: Seerialmom

On Sep 3, 9:41 am, Bianca <ldancau...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Every September, for the past few years, I have had to buy new
> backpacks for my two girls, as one school-year is, apparently, the
> maximum life-expectancy of any school backpack (even those so-called
> "high-end" ones such as Roots or Swiss Gear).
>
> Growing up, my brothers and I went through exactly 3 (leather) school
> bags each: one for elementary and middle school (which was actually
> passed down from one child to the next), one for high-school and one
> for university. Of course, then, planned obsolescence had not taken
> over America.
>
> Can someone recommend a backpack that would last AT LEAST a couple of
> years?
>
> TIA
>
> Bianca

The best backpack I had was bought at Pic-N-Save (aka MacFrugals and
renamed again to BigLots). I believe it was under $10; had a suede
bottom...and I used it for almost 6 years in college (from 86-92).
The things you want to check are the stitching for sure; for hardiness
I'd suggest checking a store that outfits campers, not fashion
conscious teens.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Sep 5 2007 12:52 pm
From: Dennis

On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 12:38:50 -0700, Seerialmom <seerialmom@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>The best backpack I had was bought at Pic-N-Save (aka MacFrugals and
>renamed again to BigLots). I believe it was under $10; had a suede
>bottom...and I used it for almost 6 years in college (from 86-92).
>The things you want to check are the stitching for sure; for hardiness
>I'd suggest checking a store that outfits campers, not fashion
>conscious teens.

The first thing to go on my kids' previous backpacks was always the
zippers.

In fact, zippers seem to be the weak point on most satchels,
backpacks, fanny packs and similar gear-holding items that have failed
for us in recent years. No doubt they all get their poor quality
zippers from the same set of (asian) manufacturers.

Dennis (evil)
--
The honest man is the one who realizes that he cannot
consume more, in his lifetime, than he produces.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Sep 5 2007 5:43 pm
From: James

On Sep 5, 3:52 pm, Dennis <dg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 12:38:50 -0700, Seerialmom <seerial...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >The best backpack I had was bought at Pic-N-Save (aka MacFrugals and
> >renamed again to BigLots). I believe it was under $10; had a suede
> >bottom...and I used it for almost 6 years in college (from 86-92).
> >The things you want to check are the stitching for sure; for hardiness
> >I'd suggest checking a store that outfits campers, not fashion
> >conscious teens.
>
> The first thing to go on my kids' previous backpacks was always the
> zippers.
>
> In fact, zippers seem to be the weak point on most satchels,
> backpacks, fanny packs and similar gear-holding items that have failed
> for us in recent years. No doubt they all get their poor quality
> zippers from the same set of (asian) manufacturers.
>
> Dennis (evil)
> --
> The honest man is the one who realizes that he cannot
> consume more, in his lifetime, than he produces.

Mountain Equipment co-op is a non profit. They check everything they
sell before they market it. The url is www.mec.ca. There is a
memebership fee but its lifetime.

Their clothing is great. I've owned a hiking style backpack from there
for 20 years.

James
James

==============================================================================
TOPIC: PERSONAL LOANS TODAY!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/88679675397871f2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Sep 5 2007 1:15 pm
From: annis

PERSONAL LOANS TODAY!

www.bigloanguide.com

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Sep 5 2007 2:04 pm
From: George Grapman

I had doubts about the legitimacy of this until I saw that they are
posting from gmail and the contact info is a hotmail address.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Home colleged to save 200k?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/30cb6a598b2763bf?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Wed, Sep 5 2007 7:01 pm
From: oprah.chopra@gmail.com

It now costs almost $200,000 to send a kid to a typical private
college. Supposedely tuition has outpaced inflation over the last 10
years due to several reasons.

I wonder if we will see more kids 'home-colleged'? Will any grad.
school accept such students? What are some frugal alternatives to
this 200k price tag?

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Wed, Sep 5 2007 7:23 pm
From: Logan Shaw

oprah.chopra@gmail.com wrote:
> It now costs almost $200,000 to send a kid to a typical private
> college. Supposedely tuition has outpaced inflation over the last 10
> years due to several reasons.

I believe it.

> I wonder if we will see more kids 'home-colleged'? Will any grad.
> school accept such students?

Hopefully not, and probably not.

> What are some frugal alternatives to
> this 200k price tag?

A public college. There are some good values to be had at certain
state schools which nonetheless supply a very solid education. Also,
scholarships and grants.

Another alternative is to spend the first 1 or 2 years at a cheaper
school. You can take English and calculus at just about any decent
school. Then transfer to the other school later, and you still get
a diploma with their (hopefully prestigious) name on it. In some
cases, this could reduce the quality of the education you get, but
in some cases perhaps not. It probably depends on the individual
schools and the major.

Yet another strategy is to take basics like English at a cheap
community college during the summer. That's similar to the strategy
of spending your first couple of years elsewhere, but it allows you
to carefully pick and choose which classes you think are worth taking
at the "real" (expensive) school.

And one more strategy is to test out of as much as possible. Go to
a good high school and take AP or IB classes (or whatever they're
doing now), then study hard and take every equivalence test you
think you have odds of passing. This saves time *and* money.

- Logan

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Wed, Sep 5 2007 7:48 pm
From: Duke of Hazard

On Sep 5, 9:23 pm, Logan Shaw <lshaw-use...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Yet another strategy is to take basics like English at a cheap
> community college during the summer. That's similar to the strategy
> of spending your first couple of years elsewhere, but it allows you
> to carefully pick and choose which classes you think are worth taking
> at the "real" (expensive) school.

My friends did this recently , but almost none of their credits
transferred to their prestigious 4-year college ( ranked in top 10 )!

> And one more strategy is to test out of as much as possible. Go to
> a good high school and take AP or IB classes (or whatever they're
> doing now), then study hard and take every equivalence test you
> think you have odds of passing. This saves time *and* money.
>
> - Logan

Not sure if this is much value at a top school either. I dont think
they offer such tests and even if they did all it will let you do is
enroll in a more difficult class to begin with.

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Wed, Sep 5 2007 9:29 pm
From: Logan Shaw

Duke of Hazard wrote:
> On Sep 5, 9:23 pm, Logan Shaw <lshaw-use...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> Yet another strategy is to take basics like English at a cheap
>> community college during the summer. That's similar to the strategy
>> of spending your first couple of years elsewhere, but it allows you
>> to carefully pick and choose which classes you think are worth taking
>> at the "real" (expensive) school.
>
> My friends did this recently , but almost none of their credits
> transferred to their prestigious 4-year college ( ranked in top 10 )!

It does require planning. It's best to check the target school's
policy before registering for a class you plan to transfer somewhere
else, because if you don't you can waste time taking classes that
don't transfer at all or that transfer in as some sort of credit
you don't need to graduate.

>> And one more strategy is to test out of as much as possible. Go to
>> a good high school and take AP or IB classes (or whatever they're
>> doing now), then study hard and take every equivalence test you
>> think you have odds of passing. This saves time *and* money.

> Not sure if this is much value at a top school either. I dont think
> they offer such tests and even if they did all it will let you do is
> enroll in a more difficult class to begin with.

I'd be surprised if the majority of top schools didn't have some sort
of program where you can test out of a few things like English
composition or a foreign language by getting a sufficient score on
a College Board Advanced Placement test. They might require really
high scores, though.

I guess the moral of the story is make sure your plan is going to
work before you start doing stuff that might be a waste of time and
money.

- Logan

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Wed, Sep 5 2007 10:36 pm
From:

A relative intentionally failed to register for one of his high school
graduation requirements, "forcing" him to take a fifth year of high
school, a year he filled with free AP courses and electives he'd never
had time for.

Not graduating on time did cost him a National Merit Scholarship, but
saved more than that in wiaved courses thanks to the AP courses.

--
josh@phred.org is Joshua Putnam
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/>
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html>

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 6 2007 2:04 am
From: Logan Shaw

josh@phred.org wrote:
> A relative intentionally failed to register for one of his high school
> graduation requirements, "forcing" him to take a fifth year of high
> school, a year he filled with free AP courses and electives he'd never
> had time for.
>
> Not graduating on time did cost him a National Merit Scholarship, but
> saved more than that in wiaved courses thanks to the AP courses.

A guy from my high school had a similar story, but in reverse. Instead
of intentionally delaying his graduation, he took extra courses and
planned to meet all the requirements to graduate early. Then along
came H. Ross Perot, who spearheaded efforts to reform the Texas public
schools[1]. Along with the "no pass, no play" rule came a "no graduate
early, no matter if you've fulfilled 100% of the requirements" rule.
As I recall hearing, the new rules essentially left him with a senior
year during which he had no academic requirements at all. So he
registered for as many AP classes as possible, and I believe may have
even worked out a special deal to take a course or two at a local
college at the same time. Essentially he was unable to skip his
last year of high school as planned so instead he skipped his first
year of college.

- Logan

[1] This was actually a pretty high-profile thing when he was involved
in it, and it gained him a lot of notoriety and respect statewide.
It is probably one of the reasons he was able to garner as much
support as he did when he ran for President.

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 6 2007 8:57 am
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"Logan Shaw" <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:46dfc2a3$0$16517$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> josh@phred.org wrote:

> planned to meet all the requirements to graduate early. Then along
> came H. Ross Perot, who spearheaded efforts to reform the Texas public
> schools[1]. Along with the "no pass, no play" rule came a "no graduate
> early, no matter if you've fulfilled 100% of the requirements" rule.

the reason for that is because schools get a per capita subsidy from
the federal govt. if you graduate early, you screw the district out
of that portion of the subsidy. this is also why districts are so strict
in how many days you can miss. they claim that it's for the sake of
the student, but if a student has mono and the dr says no school for 4
weeks, the student can do the work at home, but won't be passed to
the next grade. because they didn't show up for the head count, the
district will make sure to get that money and then some the next year.
this actually happened in a district we lived in; the kid was an a/b
student and fully capable of keeping up while at home.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Woman is content living in 84-sq. ft. tiny dream home.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/911886124117ed11?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Sep 5 2007 7:42 pm
From: Winston_Smith

On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 14:29:53 -0700, Useful Info <useful_inf@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Electricity from solar.
>Propane from a small container.
>$10k for the entire house.
>No mortgage...
>
>Wait... no debt? Isn't that un-American? Aren't we all supposed to be
>enslaved to the banks?

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/wolfe92.html
The art of living in small spaces

==============================================================================
TOPIC: This is the smartest thing i have ever done!!!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/2c37a55d8039cc3d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Sep 5 2007 8:57 pm
From: rutgerskevin

Check out my new website about my efforts to make money on the
internet. Let's make some money together.

http://www.freewebs.com/rutgerskevin/unemployedhelp.htm

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The road to a free iPod (trip report)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c70bd216f8c66f36?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Sep 5 2007 9:23 pm
From: Gordon

For those of you just joining us. A few months ago I noticed
that Key Bank was offering free iPods to people who opened
new checking accounts. So I thought I'd milk the system
and get me one.

Of course there are conditions that need to be met.

So far I have had my employer change my direct deposit
of my paycheck to Keybank. I have a few "Starter checks"
that I can use to move the money over to my existing bank.
So that's good. When I run out of starter checks I'll
change the direct deposit back over to my existing bank,

Just to be sure tho; I called my insurance agent and had them
change the billing on my car insurance to get it over $100.00
per payment. Then I had them change to a direct debit of tthe
key bank account.

So if all goes as planned, I'll have met the requirment for
two automatic transactions over $100.00.

The only other requirement is to keep the account open for 3
months. (6 if I want to avoid the early account close out fee).

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 6 2007 8:58 am
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"Gordon" <gonzo@alltomyself.com> wrote in message
news:Xns99A2D9A885A72greederxprtnet@199.45.49.11...
> For those of you just joining us. A few months ago I noticed
> that Key Bank was offering free iPods to people who opened
> new checking accounts. So I thought I'd milk the system
> and get me one.
>
> Of course there are conditions that need to be met.
>
> So far I have had my employer change my direct deposit
> of my paycheck to Keybank. I have a few "Starter checks"
> that I can use to move the money over to my existing bank.
> So that's good. When I run out of starter checks I'll
> change the direct deposit back over to my existing bank,
>
> Just to be sure tho; I called my insurance agent and had them
> change the billing on my car insurance to get it over $100.00
> per payment. Then I had them change to a direct debit of tthe
> key bank account.
>
> So if all goes as planned, I'll have met the requirment for
> two automatic transactions over $100.00.
>
> The only other requirement is to keep the account open for 3
> months. (6 if I want to avoid the early account close out fee).

so, do you feel it is worth the hassle?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Reach ur Tour Destination
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ebb46666ceed9f46?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Sep 5 2007 9:30 pm
From: Tour Mela

Reach ur tour destination

http://www.tourmela.com

Caves, Palaces, Temple, Forts, Museums, Adventure Tourism, River
Rafting, Paragliding, Monuments, Hill stations, Beaches, Museums,

Traditions, pilgrimages, wildlife,

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Washington Post: As Latrinos come, Poverty rises in the US
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c34f2346d5fe7031?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 6 2007 3:56 am
From: Ted

On Sep 5, 3:20 pm, "GeekBoy" <g...@boy.com> wrote:
> Importing Poverty
> By Robert J. Samuelson
>
> Wednesday, September 5, 2007
>
> The government last week released its annual statistical report on poverty
> and household income. As usual, we -- meaning the public, the media and
> politicians -- missed a big part of the story. It is this: The stubborn
> persistence of poverty, at least as measured by the government, is
> increasingly a problem associated with immigration. As more poor Hispanics
> enter the country, poverty goes up. This is not complicated, but it is
> widely ignored.
>
> The standard story is that poverty is stuck; superficially, the statistics
> support that. The poverty rate measures the share of Americans below the
> official poverty line, which in 2006 was $20,614 for a four-person
> household. Last year, the poverty rate was 12.3 percent, down slightly from
> 12.6 percent in 2005 but higher than the recent low, 11.3 percent in 2000.
> It was also higher than the 11.8 percent average for the 1970s. So the
> conventional wisdom seems amply corroborated.
>
> It isn't. Look again at the numbers. In 2006, there were 36.5 million people
> in poverty. That's the figure that translates into the 12.3 percent poverty
> rate. In 1990, the population was smaller, and there were 33.6 million
> people in poverty, a rate of 13.5 percent. The increase from 1990 to 2006
> was 2.9 million people (36.5 million minus 33.6 million). Hispanics
> accounted for all of the gain.
>
> Consider: From 1990 to 2006, the number of poor Hispanics increased 3.2
> million, from 6 million to 9.2 million. Meanwhile, the number of
> non-Hispanic whites in poverty fell from 16.6 million (poverty rate: 8.8
> percent) in 1990 to 16 million (8.2 percent) in 2006. Among blacks, there
> was a decline from 9.8 million in 1990 (poverty rate: 31.9 percent) to 9
> million (24.3 percent) in 2006. White and black poverty has risen somewhat
> since 2000 but is down over longer periods.
>
> Only an act of willful denial can separate immigration and poverty. The
> increase among Hispanics must be concentrated among immigrants, legal and
> illegal, as well as their American-born children. Yet, this story goes
> largely untold. Government officials didn't say much about immigration when
> briefing on the poverty and income reports.
>
> The American Enterprise Institute, a conservative-leaning think tank, and
> the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, a liberal advocacy group for the
> poor, both held briefings. Immigration was a common no-show.
>
> Why is it important to get this story straight?
>
> One reason is truthfulness. It's usually held that we've made little, if
> any, progress against poverty. That's simply untrue.
>
> Among non-Hispanic whites, the poverty rate may be approaching some
> irreducible minimum: people whose personal habits, poor skills, family
> relations or bad luck condemn them to a marginal existence. Among blacks,
> the poverty rate remains abysmally high, but it has dropped sharply since
> the 1980s. Moreover, taking into account federal benefits (food stamps, the
> earned-income tax credit) that aren't counted as cash income would further
> reduce reported poverty.
> We shouldn't think that our massive efforts to mitigate poverty have had no
> effect. Immigration hides our grudging progress.
>
> A second reason is that immigration affects government policy. By default,
> our present policy is to import poor people. This imposes strains on local
> schools, public services and health care. From 2000 to 2006, 41 percent of
> the increase in people without health insurance occurred among Hispanics.
> Paradoxically, many Hispanics are advancing quite rapidly. But
> assimilation -- which should be our goal -- will be frustrated if we keep
> adding to the pool of poor. Newcomers will compete with earlier arrivals. In
> my view, though some economists disagree, competition from low-skilled
> Hispanics also hurts low-skilled blacks.
>
> We need an immigration policy that makes sense. My oft-stated belief is that
> legal immigration should favor the high-skilled over the low-skilled. They
> will assimilate quickest and aid the economy the most.
>
> As for present illegal immigrants, we should give most of them legal status,
> both as a matter of practicality and fairness. Many have been here for years
> and have American children. At the same time, we should clamp down on new
> illegal immigration through tougher border controls and employer sanctions.
>
> Whatever one's views, any sensible debate requires accurate information.
> There's the rub. Among many analysts, journalists and politicians, it's
> politically or psychologically discomforting to discuss these issues
> candidly. Robert Greenstein, head of the Center on Budget and Policy
> Priorities, says his group focuses on short-term trends, where immigration's
> role isn't so apparent. Conveniently, that avoids antagonizing some of the
> center's supporters.
>
> Journalists are also leery of making the connection. Fifty-four reporters
> signed up for the center's briefing last week. With one exception (me), none
> asked about immigration's effect on poverty or incomes. But the evidence is
> hiding in plain sight, and the facts won't vanish just because we ignore
> them.
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/04/AR200...

Poverty is the destiny of these low IQ invading parasites. But they
bring social decay, disease, and
crime is more important. In the long term the invaders are a menace to
the environment via population growth.

ted

http://www.amren.com/

American Renaissance

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 6 2007 4:10 am
From: Day Brown

On Sep 6, 6:56 am, Ted <tedor...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Poverty is the destiny of these low IQ invading parasites. But they
> bring social decay, disease, and
> crime is more important. In the long term the invaders are a menace to
> the environment via population growth.
Gibbon reported that the aristocracy encouraged immigration of cheap
labor to Rome from tribes that lacked sound republican traditions.
Machiavelli noted how they funded the campaigns of demagogues
pandering to their ethnic and religious sensibilities while making
hidden deals to reduce the taxes on the rich. He went on to note how
republics do this, and not being able to tax the people with the
money, *borrow* it from them. This works until some creditor sees that
the tax base will no longer service the debt, much less pay it off,
and refuses to lend more.

Of course, in time, this led to financial crisis.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Anyone have a nice oat bread recipe?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1696a5786dd5cfec?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 6 2007 5:09 am
From: Binyamin Dissen

Without wheat or spelt flour.

Seems like all the recipes I have found require wheat flour.

--
Binyamin Dissen <bdissen@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com

Should you use the mailblocks package and expect a response from me,
you should preauthorize the dissensoftware.com domain.

I very rarely bother responding to challenge/response systems,
especially those from irresponsible companies.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 6 2007 8:50 am
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
news:oervd31uhmj73dcisis4e4hcfmml99mcq8@4ax.com...
> Without wheat or spelt flour.
>
> Seems like all the recipes I have found require wheat flour.

most bread recipes have to include some sort of wheat flour because bread
needs gluten:

http://www.helium.com/tm/253834/yeast-makes-bread-riseits

maybe you can find help here:

http://glutenfreediscoveries.blogspot.com/2007/03/delicious-bread.html

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Essay on indian cow.... Very Funny must read ....
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/aa54856c7d9c8dfc?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 6 2007 5:54 am
From: avtar

He is the cow. "The cow is a successful animal. Also he is 4 footed,
And because he is female, he give milks, but will do so when he is got
child. He is same like-God, sacred to Hindus and useful to man. But he
has got four legs together. Two are forward and two are afterwards..
His whole body can be utilised for use. More so the milk. Milk comes
from 4 taps attached to his basement. Horses dont have any such
attachment. What can it do? Various ghee, butter, cream, curd, why and
the condensed milk and so forth. Also he is useful to cobbler,
watermans and mankind enerally. His motion is slow only because he is
of lazy species., Also his other motion.. gober is much useful to
trees, plants as well as for making flat cakes [like Pizza ] , in
hand , and drying in the sun..

Cow is the only animal that extricates his feeding after eating. Then
afterwards she chew with his teeth whom are situated in the inside of
the mouth. He is incessantly in the meadows in the grass. His only
attacking and defending organ is the horns, specially so when he is
got child.. This is done by ....

To read full essay please click on ...

http://www.singhisking.net/essayoncow.html

Thanks and regards
Avtar --- Always a good friend.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: (www.sneakers-wholesale.com) gucci shoes shop
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/7e4d6f822f67c17d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 6 2007 7:10 am
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TOPIC: Nike Air Forces Custom Shoes
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/07c33e7bdfff9bb0?hl=en
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TOPIC: Free Satellite TV
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5bdc2dc8e2ecc60a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 6 2007 8:22 am
From: jhon d'slva

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