Frugal Living: 24 new messages in 14 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

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TOPIC: china wholesale JORDAN1-23 shoes bbc bape levis jeans BURBERRY DG shoes
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 12:05 am
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TOPIC: project management australia
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/0ba30d77636e5a77?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 1:29 am
From: "www.myfastpaydayloans.com"

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== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 3:37 am
From: clams_casino

www.myscamloans.com wrote:

>We offer complete construction project management services in
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>

But does Oprah endorse your company?

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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/046ee3de01c47aab?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 2:38 am
From: 200836 olympic games

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TOPIC: Where Do You Shop For The BEST Value?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/2f38214f19f930c2?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 3:30 am
From: clams_casino

Dave wrote:

>
>
>>
>> One would be nuts to buy (and pickup) books, CDs, videos, etc off
>> Craigslist.
>
>
> Odd comment. Are you saying craigslist users are nuts? Hundreds of
> millions of users can't all be wrong.

If hundreds of millions are buying books, CDs & videos off Craigslist,
then YES, I'd say they are wrong / nuts. Most all can be mailed to
one's home for a fraction of the cost of driving to pick them up via
Craigslist (plus eBay has a significantly greater selection). On the
other hand, I'd like to see any reference to support your claim that
there are "hundreds of millions" of media product buyers on Craigslist.

Better yet, care to provide a reference that there are "hundreds of
millions" of buyers for all products on Craigslist. No wonder you
can't see the difference.

>
>> Similarly, one would generally be nuts to buy (and have sent)
>> furniture, machinery, electronics, etc off eBay.
>
>
> Yet it happens every day. Go figure.

Agreed, but generally speaking, that's where Craigslist has it's
advantages - items that are costly to ship and/or should be inspected
prior to purchase. It's hard to fathom anyone buying used furniture,
used electronics, etc off eBay, just as it's hard to fathom anyone
searching / buying for media products on Craigslist .

Then again, people still buy media products via retail when most are
available via eBay for a fraction of the cost, so I guess there are
probably some who think it's a deal to drive 10 miles to save a few
dollars on a book.

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== 1 of 1 ==
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TOPIC: CVs weekly deals
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 4:03 am
From: Tree

Check out CVS weekly deals

http://budgetdial.blogspot.com/2008/02/here-are-cvs-sale-starting-tomororw.html

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 12:21 pm
From: Patricia Martin Steward

On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 04:03:17 -0800 (PST), Tree <info@budgetdial.com>
wrote:

>Check out CVS weekly deals

No, thanks. I stopped going there when they instituted that stoopid
loyalty card.

--
Face your fears.
Live your dreams.

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== 1 of 1 ==
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TOPIC: very important for your life
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1b23c4f64b3036b7?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 7:42 am
From: ahmed10385@gmail.com

Hi there ...

Thank you for reading this message .

Did you here about Islam? I mean the real Islam...
Do you have some questions in your religion and you don't have the
answers for them?
Do you know that you have to condemns in Islam?

Ok... just visit these sites, read and download any thing you want
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***Here I'm asking you to carefully analyze and look deeply at this
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and also that this religion is completely different from what is
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I wish that you will visit the above sites and take it seriously.
Thank you for your time.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: HD-TV converter box rip-off ....
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4a9061c13abe5727?hl=en
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== 1 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 7:43 am
From: William Souden

Rod Speed wrote:
> Too_Many_Tools <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Feb 23, 1:08 pm, Tim May <timc...@removethis.got.net> wrote:
>>> In article
>>> <05731ee7-3ec9-477c-8500-4fe032058...@q33g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> sarge137 <rbooth9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> On Feb 23, 8:23 am, EskWI...@spamblock.panix.com wrote:
>>>>> In misc.survivalism sarge137 <rbooth9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> You're right. Off the top of my head, I can't cite where I read
>>>>>> that digital signals can't be amplified;
>>>>> Google "amplify digital signal"
>>>> Got it - I know how to use Google. In fact my collegues say that if
>>>> I can't find it, it ain't out there.
>>>> I didn't find it on the web. I read in a periodical, or a book -
>>>> likely one the "for Dummies" series. But, Rod's a wingnut and I'm
>>>> not going to any trouble to prove anything to him. He'd either deny
>>>> it's there, or find some reason to dismiss it anyway.
>>> I don't know who you and Rod are, but digital signals can OF COURSE
>>> be amplified. The digital signals transmitted by remote spacecraft
>>> are of course amplified in various sophisticated ways. Even fiber
>>> optic lines often have repeaters, which are essentially "detect,
>>> regenerate" amplifiers of digital (high, low, 1, 0, etc.) signals.
>>>
>>> The very LNB/amplifier in a satellite dish is an amplifier/detector
>>> of a "digital signal" (though until the signal is "decided on" in
>>> terms of 1s and 0s, it's basically analog, which is why bigger
>>> dishes give a better signal, and are basically "amplifying" the
>>> signal via focussing the raw RF onto an element which further
>>> processes it).
>>>
>>> As for Google, I found numerous discussions in a few seconds' worth
>>> of searching. I won't even bother to clip-n-paste various URLs here.
>>>
>>> As for what you may have read in a "Dummies" book, my speculation is
>>> that you read something along the lines about how when a signal has
>>> already been detected/converted/processed and is a clean digital data
>>> stream, that further "amplificiation" is usually unnecessary. This
>>> issue often comes up in high-end audio, with various snake oil
>>> salesmen trying to sell "digital amplifiers" for what are already
>>> signals which are already clean (meaning, easily distinguishable).
>>> (Timing jitter may or may not be an issue worth considering, but
>>> this is not the same as amplification.)
>>>
>>> Error correction is also common in digital transmissions, so even
>>> some incorrectly discriminated bits, or bit flips, can be
>>> corrected-way. If too many errors occur, not so.
>>>
>>> I have both HD via a satellite (DirectTV) and OTA (Terk antenna on my
>>> roof). Both signals are _usually_ clean, with no break-up or
>>> "blocking." Sometimes with heavy rain one or both of these feeds may
>>> break-up into chunks, that is, uncorrectable blocks of signal.
>>> (There's probably some common term for this, but I don't follow
>>> things that closely.)
>>>
>>> In extreme cases, my receiver or my t.v. (when fed directly from the
>>> Terk roof antenna) will go blank, a design feature. Sometimes the
>>> satellite receiver says "Searching for satellite signal."
>>>
>>> A bigger satellite antenna might help (not offered by my vendor, but
>>> physics is physics), a bigger roof antenna might help. An inline
>>> amplifier between the dish or antenna and receiver might help.
>>> Because the signals are "at the edge" of proper detection (that is,
>>> without too many errors), so amplification might help.
>>>
>>> A long signal run may need inline amplifiers. As the previous poster
>>> said, use Google. I would check antenna size first.
>>>
>>> (And there are some obvious simple experiments to try before spending
>>> money on inline amplifiers.)
>
>> Wanna bet that the big problem with the digital changeover will be
>> with reception problems and not with the actual analog/digital
>> conversion via converter boxes?
>>
>> MANY people view analog television using marginal reception of the signals....
>
> And many of those find that digital works fine.
>
>> I will wager that we will be seeing broadcasters uping the signal strengths.
>
> Bet they wont.
>
>
I actually agree with Rod. There is that little detail regarding the
FCC. In addition, only about 12 percent of households get over the air tv.

== 2 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 8:48 am
From: sarge137

On Feb 23, 11:40 am, EskWI...@spamblock.panix.com wrote:
> In misc.survivalism sarge137 <rbooth9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 23, 8:23 am, EskWI...@spamblock.panix.com wrote:
> > > In misc.survivalism sarge137 <rbooth9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > You're right. Off the top of my head, I can't cite where I read that
> > > > digital signals can't be amplified;
>
> > > Google "amplify digital signal"
> > Got it - I know how to use Google. In fact my collegues say that if I
> > can't find it, it ain't out there.
>
> Then how did you miss the hundreds of webpages which indicate that digital
> signals are routinely amplified?

Didn't miss any of those pages, because that's not where I originally
read it, therefore not where I'd look for it, if I were so inclined.
>
> > I didn't find it on the web. I read in a periodical, or a book -
> > likely one the "for Dummies" series.
>
> Or maybe you just misremembered your forgotten source? We're talking
> simple facts here. And in fact, all around you, right now, in any
> direction you could point, digital signals are being amplified.

Or maybe I misinterpreted what I read (see Tim May's HELPFUL post, and
HDTV for Dummies, 2nd Edition, Chapter 8). A phenomenon known as a
"simple mistake".

>> But, Rod's a wingnut and I'm not
> > going to any trouble to prove anything to him. He'd either deny it's
> > there, or find some reason to dismiss it anyway.
>
> Or maybe you are just simply wrong? This is a matter of fact.

No! Not possible! I've never ever been wrong about anything in my
entire life, and never will be.

(NOTE: Please read with sarcastic, self-deprecating tone in mind. My
intent is a little subtle and I wouldn't want to ruffle any more
feathers)

> I remember talking with an engineer around 1984 about the move to fiber in
> telecom systems. I asked him how long the transmission line could be.
> He told me that with periodic amplification, the length was infinite.
>
> This is nothing new. Nor esoteric.
>
> --
> The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
> certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
> -- Bertrand Russel

== 3 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 8:57 am
From: sarge137

On Feb 23, 12:08 pm, Tim May <timc...@removethis.got.net> wrote:
> In article
> <05731ee7-3ec9-477c-8500-4fe032058...@q33g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
>
>
> sarge137 <rbooth9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Feb 23, 8:23 am, EskWI...@spamblock.panix.com wrote:
> > > In misc.survivalism sarge137 <rbooth9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > You're right. Off the top of my head, I can't cite where I read that
> > > > digital signals can't be amplified;
>
> > > Google "amplify digital signal"
>
> > Got it - I know how to use Google. In fact my collegues say that if I
> > can't find it, it ain't out there.
>
> > I didn't find it on the web. I read in a periodical, or a book -
> > likely one the "for Dummies" series. But, Rod's a wingnut and I'm not
> > going to any trouble to prove anything to him. He'd either deny it's
> > there, or find some reason to dismiss it anyway.
>
> I don't know who you and Rod are, but digital signals can OF COURSE be
> amplified. The digital signals transmitted by remote spacecraft are of
> course amplified in various sophisticated ways. Even fiber optic lines
> often have repeaters, which are essentially "detect, regenerate"
> amplifiers of digital (high, low, 1, 0, etc.) signals.
>
> The very LNB/amplifier in a satellite dish is an amplifier/detector of
> a "digital signal" (though until the signal is "decided on" in terms of
> 1s and 0s, it's basically analog, which is why bigger dishes give a
> better signal, and are basically "amplifying" the signal via focussing
> the raw RF onto an element which further processes it).
>
> As for Google, I found numerous discussions in a few seconds' worth of
> searching. I won't even bother to clip-n-paste various URLs here.
>
> As for what you may have read in a "Dummies" book, my speculation is
> that you read something along the lines about how when a signal has
> already been detected/converted/processed and is a clean digital data
> stream, that further "amplificiation" is usually unnecessary. This
> issue often comes up in high-end audio, with various snake oil salesmen
> trying to sell "digital amplifiers" for what are already signals which
> are already clean (meaning, easily distinguishable). (Timing jitter may
> or may not be an issue worth considering, but this is not the same as
> amplification.)
>
> Error correction is also common in digital transmissions, so even some
> incorrectly discriminated bits, or bit flips, can be corrected-way. If
> too many errors occur, not so.
>
> I have both HD via a satellite (DirectTV) and OTA (Terk antenna on my
> roof). Both signals are _usually_ clean, with no break-up or
> "blocking." Sometimes with heavy rain one or both of these feeds may
> break-up into chunks, that is, uncorrectable blocks of signal. (There's
> probably some common term for this, but I don't follow things that
> closely.)
>
> In extreme cases, my receiver or my t.v. (when fed directly from the
> Terk roof antenna) will go blank, a design feature. Sometimes the
> satellite receiver says "Searching for satellite signal."
>
> A bigger satellite antenna might help (not offered by my vendor, but
> physics is physics), a bigger roof antenna might help. An inline
> amplifier between the dish or antenna and receiver might help. Because
> the signals are "at the edge" of proper detection (that is, without too
> many errors), so amplification might help.
>
> A long signal run may need inline amplifiers. As the previous poster
> said, use Google. I would check antenna size first.
>
> (And there are some obvious simple experiments to try before spending
> money on inline amplifiers.)
>
> --Tim May- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

You're absolutely correct about what I misinterpreted. (HDTV for
Dummies, 2nd Edition, Chapter 8)

Thanks for taking the time to explain things, and not just treat my
post like it was made by some idiot who can't read or understand.

Sarge

== 4 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 9:31 am
From: Winston_Smith

On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 21:54:45 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
<too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Wanna bet that the big problem with the digital changeover will be
>with reception problems and not with the actual analog/digital
>conversion via converter boxes?
>
>MANY people view analog television using marginal reception of the
>signals....
>
>I will wager that we will be seeing broadcasters uping the signal
>strengths.
>
>TMT

From what I've read, digital is much more tolerant of many forms of
loss and distortion up to a point. Above that point, digital wins.
Below that point you lose everything in one shot. No such thing as a
kinda viewable but mostly snowy picture. All or nothing.

== 5 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 9:41 am
From: Too_Many_Tools

On Feb 24, 11:31 am, Winston_Smith <not_r...@bogus.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 21:54:45 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
>
> <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >Wanna bet that the big problem with the digital changeover will be
> >with reception problems and not with the actual analog/digital
> >conversion via converter boxes?
>
> >MANY people view analog television using marginal reception of the
> >signals....
>
> >I will wager that we will be seeing broadcasters uping the signal
> >strengths.
>
> >TMT
>
> From what I've read, digital is much more tolerant of many forms of
> loss and distortion up to a point. Above that point, digital wins.
> Below that point you lose everything in one shot. No such thing as a
> kinda viewable but mostly snowy picture. All or nothing.

Agreed...and many people have multiple televisions in locations around
the house working off "rabbit ear" antennas...not a optimal receiving
setup by any means.

I suspect that once the conversion occurs, many people will not
receive television broadcasts.

And the advertisers will not want to loose touch with that customer
base.

Note that the government coupons apply to converter boxes...not new
digital antennas.

TMT

== 6 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 10:53 am
From: Tim May

In article
<11a1842b-68eb-4f61-80f5-6a77badf21fb@n77g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
sarge137 <rbooth9858@yahoo.com> wrote:

> You're absolutely correct about what I misinterpreted. (HDTV for
> Dummies, 2nd Edition, Chapter 8)
>
> Thanks for taking the time to explain things, and not just treat my
> post like it was made by some idiot who can't read or understand.
>

Your welcome.

Something else that I meant to mention is that the whole term "digital
signal" is sometimes misleading. When digital bit streams are carried
over wires or cables they are ANALOG signals, that is, they are voltage
levels. (Bit streams over fiber optic lines are bunches of photons, but
the principle I'm about to describe still basically applies.)

These voltage levels typically start out as being very "clean," with a
very clear separation between "highs" and "lows."

But with distance through a wire or cable, or when transmitted through
the air as HDTV signals, the separation will lessen by some amount.
This is why "repeaters" (amplifiers) may be used for long signal runs.
(The HD signal will ride on carrier waves, but the point is the same,
that distance affects the amplitudes of the analog levels. Which is why
bigger antennas may be needed for more distant stations. The website
for picking antenna sizes, mentioned here already, has details for
particular zipcodes.)

A digital signal isn't a digital signal until it's been detected as
such....until then, even digital signals are just analog levels, albeit
looking more like pulse trains than like sines and cosines and whatnot.

This is why a large enough satellite dish or HD antenna is needed: to
get the "signal strength" up enough to where the rest of the circuitry
can properly digitize the incoming analog signal.

All of these elements act as amplifiers. (And error correction,
generally of the "fire code" kind, similar to what's been used for
decades with CDs, is used so that the digital signal is corrected back
to the original even if there are a lot of individual bit errors in the
stream.)

I'm not an HDTV engineer, but the physics is pretty straightforward.

--Tim May

== 7 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 11:35 am
From: Tim May

In article <39a3s3d5tqdk1p9255i7a8jrgv6i93ujt8@4ax.com>, Winston_Smith
<not_real@bogus.net> wrote:

>
> From what I've read, digital is much more tolerant of many forms of
> loss and distortion up to a point. Above that point, digital wins.
> Below that point you lose everything in one shot. No such thing as a
> kinda viewable but mostly snowy picture. All or nothing.

My experience is with two types of HDTV: OTA and via my DirecTV
satellite system. I'll discuss my OTA experience.

I live in the area near the Monterey Bay. I can "see" (literally) the
mountains south of me where I know the main local transmitters are
located. (Fremont Peak) However, it's about 30 miles away. None of the
Bay Area transmitters, even the ones near San Jose, are within a
feasible capture range for me.

Anyone trying to figure out there particular situation with respect to
HDTV should figure out where they are with respect to transmitters,
using a site like www.antennaweb.org, etc.

When local broadcasters first starting "turning on" their HDTV
services, I first tried some old rabbit ears (circa mid-90s, so some
circuitry inside the antenna, not just two extendable elements) to see
what local OTA stations I could get. One station came in to my
HDTV-ready t.v. (a Sharp 27-inch LCD in my bedroom...I didn't try
anything with my 60-inch Sony SXRD LCD until later). The "reception"
was definitely NOT "all or nothing."

Rather, the reception was extremely "blocky," with chunks of the screen
perfectly rendered (as near as I could tell) and chunks that were
missing or scrambled or otherwise obviously not perfectly rendered. As
the antenna was moved around, this amount of blockiness varied.

(I already knew this was not a viable antenna solution, but I wanted to
see what my HDTV-set in my upstairs bedroom would do with the new HD
broadcasts just starting up then.)

Anyone with an existing antenna mast, a familiar Yagi-type array from
the old days, may find that it picks up the HDTV quite well, with no
special Terk-type antenna needed. (However, many of these have fallen
into disrepair, gotten damaged or disconnected. Those going to OTA
after years of cable or satellite may need new rooftop antennas.)

FWIW, friends of mine in a much denser suburban area--the Santa Clara
Valley, California--get dozens of HDTV broadcasts with just plain old
rabbit ears sitting near their sets. A couple of them have added
rooftop antennas to ensure more consistent reception, even during rain.

(My hunch is that a lot of folks will just do this, then will complain
that _some_ of the broadcasts are "bad." The solution will of course
not be that those broadcasters raise their power levels. I expect a
year from now there will be lots of articles in the popular press about
the "problems" people are having and "demands" that the problem be
fixed.)

Back to my situation. I picked a reasonable-sized Terk antenna, for
about $110 at Circuit City. (www.antennaweb.org had recommended sizes
for my area)

This gave better reception (less blockiness) when in my bedroom. Things
got better when I moved it to a room with a better "view" of the
transmitters (fewer internal house materials, a glass window).

Again, not "all or nothing." Rather, _parts_ of each digital frame were
"all" and parts were "nothing." When the error rate was too high,
sometimes the frame just "froze." (This is obviously part of the how my
particular receiver, the t.v. set, was designed to handle very noisy
signals...other designs may do things differently.)

I mounted the Terk on my roof, at the highest point, and directly
facing the mountain I know most of the local transmitters were on (or
on very nearby sites). I'm about 30 miles from these transmitters.

The reception on my 60-inch t.v. and on my upstairs 27-inch t.v. was
excellent, except for occasionally "block noise." This happens during
heavy rainstorms, sometimes at random times.

I get HDTV signals for CBS, Fox, PBS, and NBC. No ABC transmitters in
my area (the Monterey/Santa Cruz/Salinas market). Some of these
transmitters have additional channels associated with them, so I get
the CW and one or two others I haven't bothered remembering.

I also get some HD through my satellite, and will be able to get many
more channels if I call up DirecTV and have them swap out my current
dish for a 5-LNB dish. (I understand they do this for free...I just
haven't bothered to call them.)

What's really interesting is that my digital video recorder (DirecTV,
with a 200 GB disk, good for about 35 hours of HD-quality recording or
about 200 hours of standard-quallity recording) accepts inputs from an
OTA antenna and RECOGNIZES them in the onscreen program guide and can
STORE them just as if they were from the satellite!

So when the Superbowl was broadcast in HD on my Fox station, I was able
to do all the usual pause, back up, freeze, save, etc. things I can
normally do.

This integration of DVRs with OTA broadcasts will make a huge
difference for a lot of people. I expect people to buy DVRs just for
OTA broadcasts, even if they don't have cable or satellite.

In conclusion, HD still has noise problems--always will, for some
users. More so at long ranges and with rain or snow attenuating the
signal. With a proper antenna, these are minor. In urban areas, closer
to the transmitters, probably no noise problems.

--Tim May

== 8 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 1:32 pm
From: Tim May

In article <240220081053226572%timcmay@removethis.got.net>, Tim May
<timcmay@removethis.got.net> wrote:

> In article
> <11a1842b-68eb-4f61-80f5-6a77badf21fb@n77g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
> sarge137 <rbooth9858@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > You're absolutely correct about what I misinterpreted. (HDTV for
> > Dummies, 2nd Edition, Chapter 8)
> >
> > Thanks for taking the time to explain things, and not just treat my
> > post like it was made by some idiot who can't read or understand.
> >
>
> Your welcome.

Phonetic typo. I meant "You're welcome."

--Tim May

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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c18412f8342e24fa?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
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TOPIC: MAKE MONEY WITH INTERNET NOW?HERE THE ANSWER
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e76b80d8894e9588?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 11:51 am
From: "mezdek1@gmail.com"

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TOPIC: Tips on frugal living in the Philadelphia region
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d36028c6a1ead2ab?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 24 2008 2:39 pm
From: Joe

Some of this applies to other cities:
http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/frugal-philly.html

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Sunday, February 24, 2008

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