Frugal Living: 25 new messages in 9 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

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Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Gas Prices
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/0ee1641a39c5a013?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, May 8 2008 6:53 am
From:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Elmo" <ElmoHateSpam@noSpam4U.org> wrote in message
news:fvus1d$153q$2@f04n12.cac.psu.edu...
>h wrote:
>>> Speaking of the epitome of driver-asshattery, check out
>>> this clip from a traffic cam in Phoenix. Keep watching
>>> the far right hand lane.
>>>
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KwTB-_BROc
>>>
>>
>> Asshat, yes, but really great driving.
> More like dumb luck.

I meant great driving from the big SUV which managed to not hit him and then
keep right on going.

== 2 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, May 8 2008 6:54 am
From:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Larry Caldwell" <firstnamelastinitial@peaksky.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.228ca1b13e8af87b989e76@news.peaksky.com...
> In article <J4vUj.15169$V14.10196@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com>,
> scharf.steven@geemail.com (SMS) says...
>
>> I don't know where you got the idea that new cars are only for the
>> wealthy. In reality they are solidly for the middle class.
>
> If you can pay cash for a new car, you meet *my* definition of wealthy.
>

Anyone who buys a new car meets *my* definition of stupid.

== 3 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, May 8 2008 8:04 am
From: SMS

Larry Caldwell wrote:
> In article <J4vUj.15169$V14.10196@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com>,
> scharf.steven@geemail.com (SMS) says...
>
>> I don't know where you got the idea that new cars are only for the
>> wealthy. In reality they are solidly for the middle class.
>
> If you can pay cash for a new car, you meet *my* definition of wealthy.

Alright, then I guess I'm wealthy, even though I'm really not wealthy,
just middle class. Frugality is the key. Not throwing away vast amounts
of money on garbage and having enough in savings to buy a moderately
priced sub-$20K vehicle that I'll take good care of and keep for 12-15
years. Actually I'd probably wait for a 0% financing deal and not pay
cash, preferring to keep the cash in an account earning some interest.

== 4 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, May 8 2008 7:21 am
From: Ann

On Thu, 08 May 2008 06:36:26 -0700, Larry Caldwell wrote:

> In article <J4vUj.15169$V14.10196@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com>,
> scharf.steven@geemail.com (SMS) says...
>
>> I don't know where you got the idea that new cars are only for the
>> wealthy. In reality they are solidly for the middle class.
>
> If you can pay cash for a new car, you meet *my* definition of wealthy.

Paying cash can also mean that one buys basic transportation and runs it
until it costs more to fix than it's worth. (The exception being the
"starter" vehicle, which was paid off as quickly as possible.) So, paying
cash can indicate frugality rather than wealth.

> If you can't pay cash for a new car, you can't afford it.

== 5 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, May 8 2008 8:26 am
From: Paul M. Eldridge

On Thu, 08 May 2008 08:17:29 -0400, Elmo <ElmoHateSpam@noSpam4U.org>
wrote:

>Paul M. Eldridge wrote:
>> We've been focusing our attention on gasoline prices, obviously, which
>> after a slight pause have once again resumed their upward march.
>> Likewise, Nymex crude hit $123.80 a barrel in today's trading, yet one
>> more all time high in a long string.
>>
>> We might also want to keep an eye on natural gas prices, which are
>> rising largely in sympathy with crude oil (some large industrial
>> customers and electrical utilities can switch between oil and natural
>> gas and routinely do so on the basis of their relative cost;
>> consequently, if one goes up the other tends to come along for the
>> ride). Natural gas is currently trading at $11.38 per MM BTU, a
>> two-year high and more than double its front-month close of just eight
>> months ago.
>>
>> Goldman Sachs recently revised its forecast for natural gas prices
>> this coming winter from $10.50 to $13.00 per MM BTU; to put this in
>> context, the Nymex Henry Hub future price spiked to $13.90 back in
>> October 2005 in the aftermath of Katrina. However, based on what
>> we've seen over these past couple weeks, don't be surprised if this
>> estimate gets racketed up another notch or two.
>>
>> Take away point: if you heat your home and DHW with natural gas, you
>> might want to increase your budget for this coming winter by 25 per
>> cent or more. And if your electrical utility is dependent upon
>> natural gas for a large share of its power generation, you might want
>> to budget for an increase in power rates too.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Paul

>My electricity comes from coal but it's going to nearly double soon.
>Just another way that deregulation helps consumers by keeping prices
>down.

Consumers are getting hit by several things at once -- higher gasoline
prices, higher food costs, rising natural gas charges and higher
electricity rates. And one will often feed off the other, so rising
energy costs in the form of fertilizer feedstock, harvesting and
processing, ground transportation, etc. translates into higher food
prices. Ditto, natural gas and power generation.

Even electrical utilities that primarily use coal are facing enormous
cost increases due to higher mining and transportation charges
(electricity + diesel), plus that "high tide floats all boats"
phenomenon I mentioned earlier. In Y2000, electrical utilities were
buying coal at less than $28.00 per a metric tonne; today, a tonne of
northern Appalachia coal runs between $110.00 and $120.00; a FOUR-fold
increase in as little as eight years. Stick around folks 'cause the
party's just begun.

Cheers,
Paul

== 6 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, May 8 2008 8:33 am
From: SMS

Larry Caldwell wrote:
> In article <o7DUj.2050$7k7.164@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com>,
scharf.steven@geemail.com (SMS) says...
>
>> You can, if you choose the worst possible cars. Try pricing a 4 year
old Camry or Accord. They fall very little in price compared to the
equivalent vehicle purchased new. Ironically, buying a one year old
Camry or Accord often costs _more_ than buying a new one, because so
many people are too dumb to know how to negotiate the price of a new car.
>
> It also sounds like people are too dumb to avoid used car dealers.

Not at all. The private party sellers are also the ones asking for, and
receiving high prices on top-rated vehicles like Hondas, Acuras,
Toyotas, etc. When we bought our last Camry, I first checked the used
private party prices. It was insane. People were asking, and getting,
more than you could buy the same car brand new. At the dealer, they had
year-old models of the same Camry priced $2000 more than their
advertised "all in stock at this price" new cars.

Now if you want to buy one of the less reliable cars, even Japanese name
plates, you can get a better deal. Subarus, Mitsubishis, Suzukis,
Nissans, Mazdas, etc., lose value almost as fast as the U.S. nameplates.

> Never buy a used car off of a lot. Purchase a used car privately
instead. You will save yourself thousands of dollars. Used car dealers
typically price cars at around 2x what they paid for the car.
> For instance, one of my co-workers recently bought a 2002 Nissan
Sentra with 57,000 miles on it for $1,500. Other than a little faded
paint, the car was in immaculate condition. It's easily good for
another 100,000 miles with only moderate repairs.

Right, I'd expect a Sentra to sell for about that much. The problem is
that a lot of people don't want the hassle of having a less reliable
vehicle, with no warranty, even if they save a few dollars.

The best thing to do is to purchase a new car every 12-15 years, but you
have to purchase one that will last that long! It's amazing to see how
many late 1980's, early 1990's Hondas and Toyotas still on the road and
looking good (well actually the Honda paint is very poor, so some of the
Honda's have a lot of fading and spotting).

== 7 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, May 8 2008 8:41 am
From: Vic Smith

On Thu, 08 May 2008 06:25:39 -0700, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

>BR wrote:
>
>> I have to disagree. Depreciation is non linear. The value of a car
>> falls quite rapidly the first three or four years. I can get a four
>> year old car for half what it cost new,
>
>You can, if you choose the worst possible cars. Try pricing a 4 year old
>Camry or Accord. They fall very little in price compared to the
>equivalent vehicle purchased new. Ironically, buying a one year old
>Camry or Accord often costs _more_ than buying a new one, because so
>many people are too dumb to know how to negotiate the price of a new car.
>
Actually, for those cars, both used and new buyers are often pretty
stupid, except for those who have negotiating skills.
The used buyers who pay more than what they would pay for a new car,
and the new car buyers paying considerably more than you paid.
One side supports the other.

snip
>
>The goal in buying a used car is to find a vehicle that has high
>depreciation, but that also has very good long term dependability of
>major components (even if minor components may need more replacement
>than a low-depreciation vehicle).

True. There is a bit of work finding this out, however.
Another twist is age of car/milage/components.
Sweet spots of price depreciation that have no substantial bearing on
longevity exist. This is mostly due to depreciation probably still
being tied to old rusting and engine failure measurements.

--Vic

== 8 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, May 8 2008 9:54 am
From: clams_casino

SMS wrote:

>
>
> Now if you buy a vehicle that has a very rapid depreciation, then a
> used one makes a lot of sense. According to Consumer Reports, the ten
> worst vehicles in terms of depreciation were all Ford, GM, and
> Chrysler models.

Of course, the reason these models have rapid depreciation is because
buyers realize theses are typically poor quality products with limited
life after 5-7 years.

> The ten best vehicles in terms of depreciation were Honda/Acura,
> Toyota/Lexus/Scion, BMW, and Mini Cooper models.

Makes sense considering they typically last 200k+ miles.

>
> The goal in buying a used car is to find a vehicle that has high
> depreciation, but that also has very good long term dependability of
> major components (even if minor components may need more replacement
> than a low-depreciation vehicle).

Problem is, the junks depreciate quickly & the best vehicles
depreciate slowly. Exceptions are just that - rare exceptions.

For me, it's a Honda - new / below dealer invoice & drive it 250k miles.

== 9 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, May 8 2008 10:01 am
From: clams_casino

h wrote:

>"Larry Caldwell" <firstnamelastinitial@peaksky.com> wrote in message
>news:MPG.228ca1b13e8af87b989e76@news.peaksky.com...
>
>
>>In article <J4vUj.15169$V14.10196@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com>,
>>scharf.steven@geemail.com (SMS) says...
>>
>>
>>
>>>I don't know where you got the idea that new cars are only for the
>>>wealthy. In reality they are solidly for the middle class.
>>>
>>>
>>If you can pay cash for a new car, you meet *my* definition of wealthy.
>>
>>
>>
>
>Anyone who buys a new car meets *my* definition of stupid.
>
>
>
>
Considering very few in their right mind sells a car after 2-3 years
without it having significant problems & the remainder are rentals /
leases, why would anyone buy a 2-3 year old car?

As someone has pointed out, most new cars can be purchased below dealer
invoice. The public is easily fooled into believing 2-3 year old cars
have high depreciation because they start with the retail price.

In reality, my 2005 Honda pilot actually increased in price via Edmunds
after one year / 30k miles.

High mileage drivers are typically better off buying new. Low mileage
drivers are typically better off buying 4-5 year old cars. The
opposite makes little sense (high mileage buying a 5-7 year old car &
low mileage drivers buying new)

== 10 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, May 8 2008 10:43 am
From: Dennis

On Thu, 08 May 2008 06:25:39 -0700, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

Not my experience. For example, in 2003, I purchased a 1998 Toyota
Corolla (spotless, 35K miles) from a private party for US$6500 cash.
That was about 1/2 the price of an equivalent new 2003 model at the
time.

Of course, looking for the right deal took more time and effort than
walking into a dealership and buying a new one off the lot.

Dennis (evil)
--
I'm behind the eight ball, ahead of the curve, riding the wave,
dodging the bullet and pushing the envelope. -George Carlin

== 11 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, May 8 2008 11:50 am
From: clams_casino

George wrote:

>
> And the best part is that roads already have one of the fairest tax
> systems going with the liquid fuels taxes. I am in PA and our governor
> has been trying for years to turn I-80 over to the mega bureaucratic
> turnpike commission that is overflowing with high paid appointed jobs
> and make it a toll road. All of this so he can look good (and payback
> his friends since he makes the turnpike appointments) because the road
> maintenance would be removed from the states' budget and he can claim
> he is a genius because he "lowered spending". Then everyone will have
> to pay more to cover the cost of the building and operation of toll
> collection systems.

Actually, tolls are the best way to pay for the roads. Those who use
them pay. Those who don't aren't subsidizing those who do.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Camcorder Hard Drive - Find Tips - SALES on Camcorders all Brand Names
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/821287311dc14324?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, May 8 2008 6:58 am
From: "Bob"

IMAGINE YOU SPAMMING THIS NEWSGROUP!
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news:7fb3aacb-9b9f-402f-b11a-b7f2033560df@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
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== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, May 8 2008 8:40 am
From: "Jacques E. Bouchard"

"Bob" <bobbyd2000@comcast.net> wrote in news:5GDUj.149445$XH2.65919
@fe03.news.easynews.com:

> IMAGINE YOU SPAMMING THIS NEWSGROUP!

Forward original message with full headers to:

groups-abuse@google.com (original poster's newsgroup account)
abuse@verizon.net (original poster's ISP)
abuse@theplanet.com (original poster's web host for camcordersonsale.com)

><syipv5cnduziklmcnh3e@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:7fb3aacb-9b9f-402f-b11a-
b7f2033560df@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
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>>
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>>
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>
>

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, May 8 2008 8:49 am
From: Larry in AZ

Waiving the right to remain silent, "Bob" <bobbyd2000@comcast.net> said:

> IMAGINE YOU SPAMMING THIS NEWSGROUP!

And imagine YOU quoting all 400 lines of his spam!

--
Larry Jandro
Video Engineering & Equipment Rentals
Scottsdale, Arizona, USA
[Remove spamtrap in ALLCAPS to reply]

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, May 8 2008 9:00 am
From: "Richard Crowley"

"Jacques E. Bouchard" wrote ...
> "Bob" <bobbyd2000@comcast.net> wrote :
>
>> IMAGINE YOU SPAMMING THIS NEWSGROUP!
>
> Forward original message with full headers to:

Good luck with that. None of those providers gives a rip.

PLEASE DON'T REGURGITATE THE ENTIRE SPAM
MESSAGE BACK TO THE NEWSGROUP! IT MAKES
YOU JUST AS BAD AS THEM!!

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, May 8 2008 9:37 am
From: "Jacques E. Bouchard"

"Richard Crowley" <rcrowley@xp7rt.net> wrote in news:68gmdkF2sv557U1
@mid.individual.net:

> "Jacques E. Bouchard" wrote ...
>> "Bob" <bobbyd2000@comcast.net> wrote :
>>
>>> IMAGINE YOU SPAMMING THIS NEWSGROUP!
>>
>> Forward original message with full headers to:
>
> Good luck with that. None of those providers gives a rip.

Didn't know you were intimately aware of the policies of Verizon and
theplanet.com.

Reporting beats just whining about it.

jaybee

==============================================================================
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, May 8 2008 7:05 am
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TOPIC: Tips on Mortgage Payoff?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/756dbec25b1ae60b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, May 8 2008 7:54 am
From: "JR Weiss"

"Joe" <really-faked-but-works@yunx.com> wrote...
> About to pay off our mortgage... Anything sneaky possible from the company,
> etc that I should watch out for or anything I can do to make the experience
> even more beneficial for us?

If it's an early payoff, make sure there are no penalty clauses in your
contract.

Make sure you get all your money back that's in your escrow account. Don't
forget you'll have to pay your own insurance and tax bills from now on.

Make sure you get the paid-off deed recorded.

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TOPIC: A bad experience dealing with AT&T Wireless
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/2cf30ac13919c228?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, May 8 2008 8:38 am
From: Joe

http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/attwireless.html

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, May 8 2008 9:20 am
From: George Grapman

Joe wrote:
> http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/attwireless.html

I have a simple way of disputing bills:

Always use a credit card. This puts more power in your hands.

Waste little time with the front line people. Politely request a
supervisor. If the supervisor refuses to help tell them that you plan to
dispute the charge. Remind them that it takes a lot more work on their
end than on yours. Tell them that when the company replies you will tell
them you disputed it because ________was unwilling to help.

Never accept "I can not do that". Tell them you believe they will not
do it but you know that they can. If they disagree ask what they would
do if their boss told them to do that.

If all else fails get the companies main number, not the toll free
customer service but corporate headquarters (yahoo finance usually has
that under "profile"). Ask for the executive offices or the legal
department. You will not get a CEO or senior v-p but you usually will
get someone whose job includes keeping problems away from upper management.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, May 8 2008 9:25 am
From: George Grapman

George Grapman wrote:
> Joe wrote:
>> http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/attwireless.html
>
>
> I have a simple way of disputing bills:
>
> Always use a credit card. This puts more power in your hands.
>
> Waste little time with the front line people. Politely request a
> supervisor. If the supervisor refuses to help tell them that you plan to
> dispute the charge. Remind them that it takes a lot more work on their
> end than on yours. Tell them that when the company replies you will tell
> them you disputed it because ________was unwilling to help.
>
> Never accept "I can not do that". Tell them you believe they will not
> do it but you know that they can. If they disagree ask what they would
> do if their boss told them to do that.
>
> If all else fails get the companies main number, not the toll free
> customer service but corporate headquarters (yahoo finance usually has
> that under "profile"). Ask for the executive offices or the legal
> department. You will not get a CEO or senior v-p but you usually will
> get someone whose job includes keeping problems away from upper management.

P.S. Two things that often get their attention:

Consumer fraud.

Small Claims Court.

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TOPIC: Question about nitrogen in tires
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/2132459f8bac24a8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, May 8 2008 11:29 am
From: pc

Anthony Matonak wrote:
> pc wrote:
>> Greetings group..
>>
>> I've seen a little bit here and there about filling tires with nitrogen.
>> Any opinions?
>> What are the costs?
>> Where did you get it?
>> If you have a slow leak can you mix regular air into it?
>
> I can't help with the costs, or where to get it.
>
> My opinion is that it's completely pointless for ordinary vehicles.
> You can mix air into it without any problems. Air is already 78%
> nitrogen so you're already putting nitrogen in your tires.
>
> If you want to spend money on car stuff then I would recommend a set
> of run-flat tires, radar brakes, in-wheel pressure sensors, automatic
> parking, GPS, fire control system and a full sized spare. :)
>
> Anthony

Thanks Anthony,

It's being advertised a lot here. So, I thought I'd look into it.
Not gonna spend money where it isn't cost effective.

..PC

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Growing your own vegetables from home
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3f7a640d5d075c8b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, May 8 2008 11:49 am
From: supersqr

this blog contains good information on gardening from home
http://www.supersqr.com/vegetable-blog/

==============================================================================

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