Frugal Living: 19 new messages in 6 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Electricity Rates - wasRe: Home heating oil price? - 6 messages, 5 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/25ab6d7a439ac7f1?hl=en
* Lower Wages for American Workers - 7 messages, 6 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/41617a060889d131?hl=en
* Legal living in a commercial bldg? - 3 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/67885bfdbb806af3?hl=en
* monk privatdetektiv in Freising wirtschaftsermittlungen detektei de
privatdetektiv werden detektei sachsen - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/03a73eec27216bc5?hl=en
* Bulova Maestro Collection Ladies Watch 96R02 Recommendation Discount Watches
- 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d30246f44eeba653?hl=en
* All about Jobs - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/fcb6af897d8bea76?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Electricity Rates - wasRe: Home heating oil price?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/25ab6d7a439ac7f1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 1 2008 12:43 pm
From: Jeff

Neon John wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 22:39:39 -0400, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Not as bad here in Atlanta. About .10/kWh averaging in delivery and
>> other costs. A surcharge for going over 650kWh in the summer and a
>> discount in the winter. Most people heat with natural gas which is a
>> good bit cheaper but is subject to wild fluctuations, I've been adding
>> solar thermal none the less.
>
> Where are you getting power that cheap? In Cobb County over 15 years ago the
> winter rate was higher than that and the summer rate even higher. I'm afraid
> to quote a number, it's been so long but 14 cent/kWh is lingering in my mind.

Georgia Power. Southern Company.

They have the rates hidden, but I pay about $65 for 650 kWhrs. You
may have been on Cobb EMC.
>
>> I can't help but think that the pain people feel at the pump is minor
>> compared to heating a house in a cold climate with oil.
>
> Yep. But people bitching at the gas pump makes for better idiot toob images.

Yeah. Keeping gasoline high for a while is not so bad if it encourages
conservation. People are making really stupid choices about their SUVs
just to avoid the pump sticker shock. Most SUV owners are now upside
down the value has fallen so much.

It's not a very smart country we live in.

> In the mid-80s I lived in PA in one unit of an apartment house that I bought.
> It had a big old belching central oil burner. The first cold month, it used
> over $1000 worth of oil. I called a service guy, he did some measurements and
> told me that it was running about 30% efficiency which was typical of an old
> boiler like that and that there was nothing he could do for me.
>
> What I did for myself was install individual gas fired boilers, one for each
> apartment, and waved bye-bye to the oil truck. The tenants paid their own gas
> bills (I bet some thermostats got set back a bit!) and mine never ran much
> over $60.

Sounds like a good plan.

Jeff
>
> John
> --
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.neon-john.com
> http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
> Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
>

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 1 2008 2:00 pm
From: "h"

"Ann" <nntpmail@epix.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2008.09.01.17.07.16.629778@epix.net...
> On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 12:02:33 -0400, h wrote:
>
>>
>> "Ann" <nntpmail@epix.net> wrote in message
>> news:pan.2008.09.01.14.22.34.403354@epix.net...
>>> On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 09:58:00 -0400, h wrote:
>>>> "Ann"
>>>>> enigma
>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ouch. How much is electricity there? From my rough calculation,
>>>>>>> electric resistance heating at 10 cents a kWhr is the same cost.
>>>>>>> This has got to hurt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i don't know about PA, but in NH my electric is .14/kWh. at
>>>>>> my upstate NH house it's around .8.5/kWh. oil at both is around
>>>>>> $4.68/gallon
>>>>>> lee
>>>>>
>>>>> Unless you are locked in and/or want to stick with a particular
>>>>> dealer, it would probably pay to shop around. $4.70 seems to have
>>>>> been the standard lock-in price in the northeast in July, but oil has
>>>>> dropped since then, along with gasoline prices. In mid-August, the
>>>>> non-plan price in Boston area was around $4.00 and $3.80 in Syracuse.
>>>>> How much it is a week from now depends on Gustav and how much driving
>>>>> people did over Labor Day.
>>>>
>>>> But, again, I pay once a year, upfront to lock in the price, but if the
>>>> price drops below that at any point, I pay the lower amount. That is
>>>> standard, as long as you have auto-delivery.
>>>
>>> That's what I thought until I misinterpreted your mention of "budget".
>>>
>>> What is the basis of your dealer's decision that there has been a price
>>> drop? You wrote last week that "right now" your dealer's "regular"
>>> price was $4.99/gallon. That's conservatively $0.75 high compared to the
>>> market-based regular price.
>>
>> Not in upstate NY it's not. Some places are charging over $5/gallon.
>
> Well, you didn't consider the Southern Tier to be "upstate", so I looked
> up the Syracuse price. What do you consider "upstate"?
>
Capital District, Hudson Valley, Adirondacks.

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 1 2008 2:07 pm
From: "JonquilJan"

Thanks Ron - see my state (New York) is near the bottom.

Jan

Learn something new every day
As long as you are learning, you are living
When you stop learning, you start dying
Ron Peterson <ron@shell.core.com> wrote in message
news:72ffc891-1ee7-4de1-92d9-20ffae15d04a@k7g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 31, 5:02 pm, "JonquilJan" <war...@imcnet.net> wrote:

> What is the situation on electric in other parts of the country? Company
is
> National Grid - and I opt in for wind energy (which adds just a bit -
trying
> to do 'my part').

http://www.neo.ne.gov/statshtml/115.htm shows the average electric
rate by state.

--
Ron

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 1 2008 2:10 pm
From: "JonquilJan"

Neon John <no@never.com> wrote in message
news:4c9ob4ht4hd786msj0qo4p444cebbdpf3b@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 18:02:14 -0400, "JonquilJan" <ward39@imcnet.net>
wrote:
>
>
> >Here (northern New York) my electric is .13028/kWh - but - delivery
services
> >are ,030799/kWh plus a 2.04082% surcharge on the delivery service plus
> >basic delivery service (other than useage) of $16.21. The delivery
services
> >are over half my bill.
>
> Take the bottom line dollar amount and divide that by the kWh that you
used
> and that is your true electric rate. From what you say, yours is going to
be
> close to the 30 cents a kWh that a friend in Manhattan pays.

That way - .2754/kWh for the Last bill.
> >
> >What is the situation on electric in other parts of the country? Company
is
> >National Grid - and I opt in for wind energy (which adds just a bit -
trying
> >to do 'my part').
>
> What part is that? New England is pretty thick with nuclear power so you
can
> pay the regular rate and get "clean" power without helping clutter up the
> landscape with wind turbines.

Northern New York state.

JonquilJan

>
> Anyway, On the rural co-op I'm on now, the rate is just a smidgen under 9
> cents. No other except state sales tax. Down in the city it's a penny
less.
> Gotta love that nuclear power (Sequoyah, Watts Bar and Browns Ferry all
feed
> this region.)
>
> John

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 1 2008 1:34 pm
From: Ann

On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 17:00:24 -0400, h wrote:

>
> "Ann" <nntpmail@epix.net> wrote in message
> news:pan.2008.09.01.17.07.16.629778@epix.net...
>> On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 12:02:33 -0400, h wrote:
>>
>>
>>> "Ann" <nntpmail@epix.net> wrote in message
>>> news:pan.2008.09.01.14.22.34.403354@epix.net...
>>>> On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 09:58:00 -0400, h wrote:
>>>>> "Ann"
>>>>>> enigma
>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ouch. How much is electricity there? From my rough calculation,
>>>>>>>> electric resistance heating at 10 cents a kWhr is the same cost.
>>>>>>>> This has got to hurt.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> i don't know about PA, but in NH my electric is .14/kWh. at
>>>>>>> my upstate NH house it's around .8.5/kWh. oil at both is around
>>>>>>> $4.68/gallon
>>>>>>> lee
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unless you are locked in and/or want to stick with a particular
>>>>>> dealer, it would probably pay to shop around. $4.70 seems to have
>>>>>> been the standard lock-in price in the northeast in July, but oil
>>>>>> has dropped since then, along with gasoline prices. In mid-August,
>>>>>> the non-plan price in Boston area was around $4.00 and $3.80 in
>>>>>> Syracuse. How much it is a week from now depends on Gustav and how
>>>>>> much driving people did over Labor Day.
>>>>>
>>>>> But, again, I pay once a year, upfront to lock in the price, but if
>>>>> the price drops below that at any point, I pay the lower amount. That
>>>>> is standard, as long as you have auto-delivery.
>>>>
>>>> That's what I thought until I misinterpreted your mention of "budget".
>>>>
>>>> What is the basis of your dealer's decision that there has been a
>>>> price drop? You wrote last week that "right now" your dealer's
>>>> "regular" price was $4.99/gallon. That's conservatively $0.75 high
>>>> compared to the market-based regular price.
>>>
>>> Not in upstate NY it's not. Some places are charging over $5/gallon.
>>
>> Well, you didn't consider the Southern Tier to be "upstate", so I looked
>> up the Syracuse price. What do you consider "upstate"?
>>
> Capital District, Hudson Valley, Adirondacks.

So, your "up" is East, not North. <g> Anyway, Jim E. posted the url for
the NYS webpage with the prices that I remembered seeing several years
ago. Be interesting to see what the August prices are.

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 1 2008 7:42 pm
From: BR

(PeteCresswell) wrote:
>> What is the situation on electric in other parts of the country?
>
> Philadelphia PA, Exelon. My June bill came to .164/kwhr

PP&L Residential customers are paying 0.092/KWH in the
Wilkes-Barre/Scranton PA area. This will go up to 0.12 to 0.15 per KWH
when rate caps go off in 2010.

--
Remove the TOS star ship captain to reply privately.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Lower Wages for American Workers
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/41617a060889d131?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 1 2008 12:48 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Frank <x> wrote
> <wismel@yahoo.com> wrote
>> johnny@. <johnny@.> wrote

>>> August 31, 2008
>>> Federation for American Immigration Reform

>>> High-immigration cheerleaders claim that we need immigration for our economy. But they ignore the detrimental effect
>>> that importing workers has on American workers, particularly low-skilled natives. In a supply and demand economy
>>> like ours, the more there is of something, the less value it has.

> Except for over priced lawyers, which we have an over abundance with.
> What does one expect from a country that doesn't manufacture much of
> anything except for entertainment, corporate takeovers and lawsuits?

Thats a lie, most obviously with aircraft, cars, computer software, civil engineering, etc etc etc.

>>> By artificially inflating the number of workers in our country,
>>> immigration lowers the value of workers, and wages are depressed. As
>>> George Washington University economics professor Robert Dunn notes,
>>> "I know business people who tell me they're not interested in hiring
>>> Americans because the people who come from outside are cheaper. But
>>> ... if there's an unlimited supply of labor facing this country from
>>> outside, from the South or wherever, at five dollars an hour, I
>>> don't care how fast this economy grows, the wage rate for such
>>> people is going to be five dollars an hour!"1

>>> The Skill Levels of Most Immigrants Are Low.

> Don't know about that. Look at any university, engineering companies,
> research labs and hospitals and you will have a different point of view.

Its less clear what percentage of immigrants those are tho. It may well still qualify for his 'most'.

>>> Thanks to immigration laws that favor relatives instead of skilled
>>> workers, most of the immigrants being admitted are low-skilled. Out of all the adult immigrants admitted in 2000, 69
>>> percent had no reported profession, occupation, or job at all.2 The average adult immigrant has only a ninth-grade
>>> education; more than a third of immigrants over 25 are not high school graduates.3

> Sounds like our natives as well - we have the lowest test score for any developed nation.

Thats largely the result of the very unusual demographics for a modern first world country.

Quite a few of them are the kids of recent immigrants too.

> Shameful!

Nope, a fact of life given that the US still has one of the highest percentage of immigrants.

>>> Claims That We Need Low-Skilled Workers Are False.

>>> Some employers claim that they need to import low-skilled workers to
>>> compete in the world market, where wages are very low. But those
>>> employers have simply become dependent on cheap foreign labor to the
>>> detriment of American workers: "Network recruitment [of immigrants]
>>> not only excludes American workers from certain jobs; it also
>>> builds a dependency relationship between U.S. employers and Mexican
>>> sources that requires a constant infusion of new workers," says
>>> economist Philip Martin.4 Such a strategy for our economy is doomed
>>> to failure anyway: "The low-wage strategy may work in the short
>>> run, but in the long run it's a loser. In the long run, we are not
>>> going to win a wage-cutting contest with the Third World," notes
>>> economist Vernon Briggs.5

>>> Besides, the United States already has plenty of low-skilled native
>>> workers: "No technologically advanced industrial nation that has 27
>>> million illiterate adults ... need have any fear about a shortage of
>>> unskilled workers in its foreseeable future."6

>>> http://www.rightsidenews.com/200808311844/border-and-sovereignty/lower-wages-for-american-workers.html

> Mexicans or any other illegal immigrants are not a problem as much as our laws and our politicians that allow it, and
> even encourage it.

They dont really encourage it, its more that they dont bother with the more gung ho approaches to
stopping illegals, particularly not being very energetic with random searches within the country etc.

> If you extrapolate into the future, at some point, America won't be a good place to live in and even illegal,
> unskilled immigrants wanted to get out.

Thats a fantasy. There are STILL hordes more who want to move
there than want to leave and that wont be changing any time soon.

> Forget about lower wages for American workers, forget about inflation in general and energy prices in particular,
> forget about illegal immigrants, forget about problems with fair trade, what
> we need to do now is fix is our laws, political system, and culture

The hordes that still want to move to america if they were allowed to clearly dont agree.

> everything else will follow.

Nope.

> Couple of towns from mine has as many as one homicide per day and we have four towns like this surrounding us.
> Multiply this across America, and we have a major problem above anything else.

America has always been like that and has survived that fine.

Sure, its very undesirable, but it hasnt stopped america
working in the past and wont in the future either.

> Its a matter of time someone will get his head blown
> off just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Thats just plain wrong. Homicide is very restricted risk wise, its dishonest
to imply that everyone is at risk of having their head blown off.

> Doesn't matter if you live in a high class, safe gated community, you need to get out sometime and you will be a
> victim, hopefully not fatal.

Thats just plain wrong too. If you keep away from the worst areas, your
risk of becoming a 'victim' is no greater than in say england or france.

> Nothing matters when you're dead.

Yes, but the risk of death is actually lower in the US than in some
other modern first world countrys if you're say an engineer etc.

The US statistics are completely dominated by what the dregs of society get up to murder wise.

In some citys the vast bulk of the homicides occur in only a few city blocks.

Even just driving thru those doesnt significantly affect your risk of ending up dead.

> It wasn't always like this. If we had the culture back in the 1940s - hard working, law abiding, honest, pride in the
> workplace and at home, teaching out children right from wrong, staying away from crime and welfare, and the American
> can do attitude,

And lynchings and extreme race discrimination.

> this mess would have turned around years ago, including immigration.

Pure fantasy.

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 1 2008 1:27 pm
From: r@back.road

Rod Speed wrote:
> Frank <x> wrote
>> <wismel@yahoo.com> wrote
>>> johnny@. <johnny@.> wrote
>
>>>> August 31, 2008
>>>> Federation for American Immigration Reform
>
>>>> High-immigration cheerleaders claim that we need immigration for our economy. But they ignore the detrimental effect
>>>> that importing workers has on American workers, particularly low-skilled natives. In a supply and demand economy
>>>> like ours, the more there is of something, the less value it has.
>
>> Except for over priced lawyers, which we have an over abundance with.
>> What does one expect from a country that doesn't manufacture much of
>> anything except for entertainment, corporate takeovers and lawsuits?
>
> Thats a lie, most obviously with aircraft, cars, computer software, civil engineering, etc etc etc.
>
>>>> By artificially inflating the number of workers in our country,
>>>> immigration lowers the value of workers, and wages are depressed. As
>>>> George Washington University economics professor Robert Dunn notes,
>>>> "I know business people who tell me they're not interested in hiring
>>>> Americans because the people who come from outside are cheaper. But
>>>> ... if there's an unlimited supply of labor facing this country from
>>>> outside, from the South or wherever, at five dollars an hour, I
>>>> don't care how fast this economy grows, the wage rate for such
>>>> people is going to be five dollars an hour!"1
>
>>>> The Skill Levels of Most Immigrants Are Low.
>
>> Don't know about that. Look at any university, engineering companies,
>> research labs and hospitals and you will have a different point of view.
>
> Its less clear what percentage of immigrants those are tho. It may well still qualify for his 'most'.
>
>>>> Thanks to immigration laws that favor relatives instead of skilled
>>>> workers, most of the immigrants being admitted are low-skilled. Out of all the adult immigrants admitted in 2000, 69
>>>> percent had no reported profession, occupation, or job at all.2 The average adult immigrant has only a ninth-grade
>>>> education; more than a third of immigrants over 25 are not high school graduates.3
>
>> Sounds like our natives as well - we have the lowest test score for any developed nation.
>
> Thats largely the result of the very unusual demographics for a modern first world country.
>
> Quite a few of them are the kids of recent immigrants too.
>
>> Shameful!
>
> Nope, a fact of life given that the US still has one of the highest percentage of immigrants.
>
>>>> Claims That We Need Low-Skilled Workers Are False.
>
>>>> Some employers claim that they need to import low-skilled workers to
>>>> compete in the world market, where wages are very low. But those
>>>> employers have simply become dependent on cheap foreign labor to the
>>>> detriment of American workers: "Network recruitment [of immigrants]
>>>> not only excludes American workers from certain jobs; it also
>>>> builds a dependency relationship between U.S. employers and Mexican
>>>> sources that requires a constant infusion of new workers," says
>>>> economist Philip Martin.4 Such a strategy for our economy is doomed
>>>> to failure anyway: "The low-wage strategy may work in the short
>>>> run, but in the long run it's a loser. In the long run, we are not
>>>> going to win a wage-cutting contest with the Third World," notes
>>>> economist Vernon Briggs.5
>
>>>> Besides, the United States already has plenty of low-skilled native
>>>> workers: "No technologically advanced industrial nation that has 27
>>>> million illiterate adults ... need have any fear about a shortage of
>>>> unskilled workers in its foreseeable future."6
>
>>>> http://www.rightsidenews.com/200808311844/border-and-sovereignty/lower-wages-for-american-workers.html
>
>> Mexicans or any other illegal immigrants are not a problem as much as our laws and our politicians that allow it, and
>> even encourage it.
>
> They dont really encourage it, its more that they dont bother with the more gung ho approaches to
> stopping illegals, particularly not being very energetic with random searches within the country etc.
>
>> If you extrapolate into the future, at some point, America won't be a good place to live in and even illegal,
>> unskilled immigrants wanted to get out.
>
> Thats a fantasy. There are STILL hordes more who want to move
> there than want to leave and that wont be changing any time soon.
>
>> Forget about lower wages for American workers, forget about inflation in general and energy prices in particular,
>> forget about illegal immigrants, forget about problems with fair trade, what
>> we need to do now is fix is our laws, political system, and culture
>
> The hordes that still want to move to america if they were allowed to clearly dont agree.
>
>> everything else will follow.
>
> Nope.
>
>> Couple of towns from mine has as many as one homicide per day and we have four towns like this surrounding us.
>> Multiply this across America, and we have a major problem above anything else.
>
> America has always been like that and has survived that fine.
>
> Sure, its very undesirable, but it hasnt stopped america
> working in the past and wont in the future either.
>
>> Its a matter of time someone will get his head blown
>> off just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
>
> Thats just plain wrong. Homicide is very restricted risk wise, its dishonest
> to imply that everyone is at risk of having their head blown off.
>
>> Doesn't matter if you live in a high class, safe gated community, you need to get out sometime and you will be a
>> victim, hopefully not fatal.
>
> Thats just plain wrong too. If you keep away from the worst areas, your
> risk of becoming a 'victim' is no greater than in say england or france.
>
>> Nothing matters when you're dead.
>
> Yes, but the risk of death is actually lower in the US than in some
> other modern first world countrys if you're say an engineer etc.
>
> The US statistics are completely dominated by what the dregs of society get up to murder wise.
>
> In some citys the vast bulk of the homicides occur in only a few city blocks.
>
> Even just driving thru those doesnt significantly affect your risk of ending up dead.
>
>> It wasn't always like this. If we had the culture back in the 1940s - hard working, law abiding, honest, pride in the
>> workplace and at home, teaching out children right from wrong, staying away from crime and welfare, and the American
>> can do attitude,
>
> And lynchings and extreme race discrimination.
>
>> this mess would have turned around years ago, including immigration.
>
> Pure fantasy.
>
>
Ms Speed is a delusional defender of supply side government, non
economics planning,autocratic rule by big business and the banking
empire via universal unilateral contracts and elimination of
Citizens/Consumers rights and protections. In other words a globalist
pre plagues England.

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 1 2008 6:06 pm
From: krw

In article <M96dnQQG8cjc3yHVnZ2dnUVZ_qvinZ2d@earthlink.com>,
jeff@spam_me_not.com says...
> krw wrote:
> > In article <AbadnTzTWf1diiHVnZ2dnUVZ_oHinZ2d@rcn.net>, raymond-
> > ohara@hotmail.com says...
> >> <wismel@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> news:vcqnb41o3jbbrr80uhq0urgp74if6enecj@4ax.com...
> >>> On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 10:15:21 -0500, "johnny@." <johnny@.> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> August 31, 2008
> >>>> Federation for American Immigration Reform
> >>>>
> >>>> High-immigration cheerleaders claim that we need immigration for our
> >>>> economy. But they ignore the detrimental effect that importing workers
> >>>> has on American workers, particularly low-skilled natives. In a supply
> >>>> and demand economy like ours, the more there is of something, the less
> >>>> value it has.
> >>>> By artificially inflating the number of workers in our country,
> >>>> immigration lowers the value of workers, and wages are depressed. As
> >>>> George Washington University economics professor Robert Dunn notes, "I
> >>>> know business people who tell me they're not interested in hiring
> >>>> Americans because the people who come from outside are cheaper. But ...
> >>>> if there's an unlimited supply of labor facing this country from
> >>>> outside, from the South or wherever, at five dollars an hour, I don't
> >>>> care how fast this economy grows, the wage rate for such people is going
> >>>> to be five dollars an hour!"1
> >> we can cut wages or see all the jobs shipped over seas.
> >> those are the choices the republicans have given us.
> >> so keep voting republican .
> >
> > I didn't know that BJ Clinton was a Republican. When did that
> > happen?
> >
> You guys are so smug. You think, Republicans have just got to do a
> better job then Democrats.
>
> That is certainly what George W Bush thought. And then he proceeded to:
>
> Create less than 1/4 the number of jobs then under Clinton.

Bald faced lie.

> Take a record surplus and turn it into a record deficit.

Another lie.

> Let North Korea create a number of plutonium bombs. Note that Bush
> thought that Clinton's approach to preventing N Korea from getting a
> *uranium* bomb was flawed. North Korea is nowhere near acquiring such a
> weapon (uranium) and was not developing a plutonium weapon before.

Who *paid* them to continue their development program. Under who's
Presidency did it end?

> Brag about the Ownership Society, which is looking more like the
> Foreclosure Society.

More people own houses now than at any time in history.

> Take a federal agency (FEMA) which was widely respected and ranked
> number two out of all government agencies and turn it into the laughing
> stock it is now.

That was a Congressional mandate after 9/11.

> Throw away oversight. Let 100 year old companies like Bear Sterns
> collapse, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac totter and create a banking crisis
> not seen since Reagan ignored oversight over the S & L's.

> Take away sunshine from Energy Trading. Let speculators trade futures
> in the dark under regulations that were changed at the bequest of Enron.
> Oil is selling for 3 times as much as it was when George W Bush said
> he would jawbone those Arabs into lowering prices.
>
> Take the country into an unneeded war on made up evidence, and not
> complete the needed war.
>
> Spout so many empty threats that Pooty Poot (W's nickname for Putin)
> did exactly what he was warned against just hours earlier.
>
> And yet you think that's a fine record of accomplishments. And a blow
> job is such a terrible thing.
>
> Since you haven't been running on logic up to this point, I'm not
> expecting a change now.
>
Your blind hatred is getting boring, but in cause you hadn't
noticed, BJ Clinton isn't running either.

--
Keith

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 1 2008 6:09 pm
From: jdoe

On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 15:27:56 -0400, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:

>krw wrote:
>> In article <AbadnTzTWf1diiHVnZ2dnUVZ_oHinZ2d@rcn.net>, raymond-
>> ohara@hotmail.com says...
>>> <wismel@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:vcqnb41o3jbbrr80uhq0urgp74if6enecj@4ax.com...
>>>> On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 10:15:21 -0500, "johnny@." <johnny@.> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> August 31, 2008
>>>>> Federation for American Immigration Reform
>>>>>
>>>>> High-immigration cheerleaders claim that we need immigration for our
>>>>> economy. But they ignore the detrimental effect that importing workers
>>>>> has on American workers, particularly low-skilled natives. In a supply
>>>>> and demand economy like ours, the more there is of something, the less
>>>>> value it has.
>>>>> By artificially inflating the number of workers in our country,
>>>>> immigration lowers the value of workers, and wages are depressed. As
>>>>> George Washington University economics professor Robert Dunn notes, "I
>>>>> know business people who tell me they're not interested in hiring
>>>>> Americans because the people who come from outside are cheaper. But ...
>>>>> if there's an unlimited supply of labor facing this country from
>>>>> outside, from the South or wherever, at five dollars an hour, I don't
>>>>> care how fast this economy grows, the wage rate for such people is going
>>>>> to be five dollars an hour!"1
>>> we can cut wages or see all the jobs shipped over seas.
>>> those are the choices the republicans have given us.
>>> so keep voting republican .
>>
>> I didn't know that BJ Clinton was a Republican. When did that
>> happen?
>>
> You guys are so smug. You think, Republicans have just got to do a
>better job then Democrats.
>
> That is certainly what George W Bush thought. And then he proceeded to:
>
> Create less than 1/4 the number of jobs then under Clinton.

this is just flat out false and I am sure the balance of your post is
just as ill informed
__________________________________________
Never argue with an idiot.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 1 2008 8:24 pm
From: Jeff

krw wrote:
> In article <M96dnQQG8cjc3yHVnZ2dnUVZ_qvinZ2d@earthlink.com>,
> jeff@spam_me_not.com says...
>> krw wrote:
>>> In article <AbadnTzTWf1diiHVnZ2dnUVZ_oHinZ2d@rcn.net>, raymond-
>>> ohara@hotmail.com says...
>>>> <wismel@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:vcqnb41o3jbbrr80uhq0urgp74if6enecj@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 10:15:21 -0500, "johnny@." <johnny@.> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> August 31, 2008
>>>>>> Federation for American Immigration Reform
>>>>>>
>>>>>> High-immigration cheerleaders claim that we need immigration for our
>>>>>> economy. But they ignore the detrimental effect that importing workers
>>>>>> has on American workers, particularly low-skilled natives. In a supply
>>>>>> and demand economy like ours, the more there is of something, the less
>>>>>> value it has.
>>>>>> By artificially inflating the number of workers in our country,
>>>>>> immigration lowers the value of workers, and wages are depressed. As
>>>>>> George Washington University economics professor Robert Dunn notes, "I
>>>>>> know business people who tell me they're not interested in hiring
>>>>>> Americans because the people who come from outside are cheaper. But ...
>>>>>> if there's an unlimited supply of labor facing this country from
>>>>>> outside, from the South or wherever, at five dollars an hour, I don't
>>>>>> care how fast this economy grows, the wage rate for such people is going
>>>>>> to be five dollars an hour!"1
>>>> we can cut wages or see all the jobs shipped over seas.
>>>> those are the choices the republicans have given us.
>>>> so keep voting republican .
>>> I didn't know that BJ Clinton was a Republican. When did that
>>> happen?
>>>
>> You guys are so smug. You think, Republicans have just got to do a
>> better job then Democrats.
>>
>> That is certainly what George W Bush thought. And then he proceeded to:
>>
>> Create less than 1/4 the number of jobs then under Clinton.
>
> Bald faced lie.

Oh yak yak yak. You wingnuts believe anything you hear on talk radio.
But you've got not a shred of anything that resembles a fact.

Barely any jobs at all were created in the first Bush term, he just
pulled it out in the last couple of months or he would have been the
first president to have a net loss of jobs since... well, you should know.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080708085650AAj2Wi5

President Clinton averaged 2.6 million new jobs created every year.
Bush's yearly average has been 375,000...
>
>> Take a record surplus and turn it into a record deficit.
>
> Another lie.

More yak yak yak.

This year alone it is 482 billion dollars. And that doesn't even include
much of the war funding which has been off budget. The total deficit
is 50% + what it was when W entered office. 5.7 trillion (W's
inauguration) to todays 9.6 trillion.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/29/america/budget.php

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/NPGateway
>
>> Let North Korea create a number of plutonium bombs. Note that Bush
>> thought that Clinton's approach to preventing N Korea from getting a
>> *uranium* bomb was flawed. North Korea is nowhere near acquiring such a
>> weapon (uranium) and was not developing a plutonium weapon before.
>
> Who *paid* them to continue their development program.

Sorry pea brain. Korea was "paid" to stop their Uranium program with
energy subsidies. They did.

Bush canceled that deal and they cranked up the previous non-existent
plutonium program. And how many bombs did they set off to prove that?

Under who's
> Presidency did it end?

Look ma. Bombs galore. And in case you haven't noticed N Korea is
cranking up their program again.
>
>> Brag about the Ownership Society, which is looking more like the
>> Foreclosure Society.
>
> More people own houses now than at any time in history.

And they own a lot less of them than in practically any time in history.
Did you fail to notice that little detail? Practically everyone who has
bought a house in the last couple years is upside down.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&refer=home&sid=a4kZQNXUFpW4

March 25 (Bloomberg) -- Home prices in 20 U.S. metropolitan areas fell
in January by the most on record, a sign the housing recession is
deepening, a private survey showed today.

The S&P/Case-Shiller home-price index dropped 10.7 percent from January
2007, after a 9 percent year-on-year decrease through December 2007. The
gauge has fallen for 13 consecutive months.

Lets also look at home ownership rates:

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The housing and mortgage meltdown caused the
biggest one-year drop in the rate of homeownership on record, according
to government figures released Tuesday.

The decline, while expected, is yet another indication of the housing
market's sudden and dramatic turn.

The Census Bureau report showed that home owners accounted for 67.8% of
occupied homes in the fourth quarter, down 1.1 points from a year
earlier. It's the largest year-over-year drop recorded in the report.

"It's an incredible story," said Dean Baker, co-director of the Center
for Economic and Policy Research. "We're back to where we were in 2002,
which is before the subprime nuttiness and run-up in prices. And it's
not clear how much farther we're going to fall."
>
>> Take a federal agency (FEMA) which was widely respected and ranked
>> number two out of all government agencies and turn it into the laughing
>> stock it is now.
>
> That was a Congressional mandate after 9/11.

And proposed by exactly who? And run by someone who worked on whose
campaign?
>
>> Throw away oversight. Let 100 year old companies like Bear Sterns
>> collapse, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac totter and create a banking crisis
>> not seen since Reagan ignored oversight over the S & L's.
>
>> Take away sunshine from Energy Trading. Let speculators trade futures
>> in the dark under regulations that were changed at the bequest of Enron.
>> Oil is selling for 3 times as much as it was when George W Bush said
>> he would jawbone those Arabs into lowering prices.
>>
>> Take the country into an unneeded war on made up evidence, and not
>> complete the needed war.
>>
>> Spout so many empty threats that Pooty Poot (W's nickname for Putin)
>> did exactly what he was warned against just hours earlier.
>>
>> And yet you think that's a fine record of accomplishments. And a blow
>> job is such a terrible thing.
>>
>> Since you haven't been running on logic up to this point, I'm not
>> expecting a change now.
>>
> Your blind hatred is getting boring, but in cause you hadn't
> noticed, BJ Clinton isn't running either.

There you go again. Another yellow dog republican that won't take an
inkling of responsibility. Oh, but Bill got a blow job...

Jeff
>
>

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 1 2008 8:57 pm
From: Jeff

jdoe wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 15:27:56 -0400, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>
>> krw wrote:
>>> In article <AbadnTzTWf1diiHVnZ2dnUVZ_oHinZ2d@rcn.net>, raymond-
>>> ohara@hotmail.com says...
>>>> <wismel@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:vcqnb41o3jbbrr80uhq0urgp74if6enecj@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 10:15:21 -0500, "johnny@." <johnny@.> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> August 31, 2008
>>>>>> Federation for American Immigration Reform
>>>>>>
>>>>>> High-immigration cheerleaders claim that we need immigration for our
>>>>>> economy. But they ignore the detrimental effect that importing workers
>>>>>> has on American workers, particularly low-skilled natives. In a supply
>>>>>> and demand economy like ours, the more there is of something, the less
>>>>>> value it has.
>>>>>> By artificially inflating the number of workers in our country,
>>>>>> immigration lowers the value of workers, and wages are depressed. As
>>>>>> George Washington University economics professor Robert Dunn notes, "I
>>>>>> know business people who tell me they're not interested in hiring
>>>>>> Americans because the people who come from outside are cheaper. But ...
>>>>>> if there's an unlimited supply of labor facing this country from
>>>>>> outside, from the South or wherever, at five dollars an hour, I don't
>>>>>> care how fast this economy grows, the wage rate for such people is going
>>>>>> to be five dollars an hour!"1
>>>> we can cut wages or see all the jobs shipped over seas.
>>>> those are the choices the republicans have given us.
>>>> so keep voting republican .
>>> I didn't know that BJ Clinton was a Republican. When did that
>>> happen?
>>>
>> You guys are so smug. You think, Republicans have just got to do a
>> better job then Democrats.
>>
>> That is certainly what George W Bush thought. And then he proceeded to:
>>
>> Create less than 1/4 the number of jobs then under Clinton.
>
> this is just flat out false and I am sure the balance of your post is
> just as ill informed

Wishful thinking on your part Bucko...

From your own Fox news:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,242424,00.html

Under Bush, the economy produced 3.7 million new jobs from January 2001
through December of last year based on nonfarm payroll figures collected
by the Labor Department's Bureau of Labor Statistics.

...

When Clinton was in the White House, the economy generated 17.6 million
jobs during the corresponding period —

Current figures don't look so good.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/economy/

on August 1, 2008, the Bureau of Labor Statistics released new jobs
figures for July. Nonfarm payroll employment decreased by 51,000 jobs
in July...

In fact, jobs have been lost every month this year.

You can look up the real facts yourself, instead of relying on what
some wingnut on talk radio says:

http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/SurveyOutputServlet

Jeff
> __________________________________________
> Never argue with an idiot.
> They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 1 2008 9:18 pm
From: Gunner Asch

On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 12:19:19 -0700, " Frank" <x> wrote:

>>>High-immigration cheerleaders claim that we need immigration for our
>>>economy. But they ignore the detrimental effect that importing workers
>>>has on American workers, particularly low-skilled natives. In a supply
>>>and demand economy like ours, the more there is of something, the less
>>>value it has.
>
>Except for over priced lawyers, which we have an over abundance with. What
>does one expect from a country that doesn't manufacture much of anything
>except for entertainment, corporate takeovers and lawsuits?

Odd...I hope you are not talking about the USA, as its the most
productive country on the planet, manufacturing wise.

"Confiscating wealth from those who have earned it, inherited it,
or got lucky is never going to help 'the poor.' Poverty isn't
caused by some people having more money than others, just as obesity
isn't caused by McDonald's serving super-sized orders of French fries
Poverty, like obesity, is caused by the life choices that dictate
results." - John Tucci,

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Legal living in a commercial bldg?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/67885bfdbb806af3?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 1 2008 2:03 pm
From: Vandy Terre

On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 18:50:24 -0700, former POW <georgewkspam@humboldt1.com>
wrote:

>Can one live in a former "commercial" or industrial area ? California

The correct answer depends on local area zoning or State zoning laws.

Although I have lived in the back of my shop legally in both Indiana and
Georgia. Great for short term living needs and money is low. In the long run I
would not want to live in my shop unless I could have a real apartment built
into it.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 1 2008 5:31 pm
From: Coffee's For Closers

In article <georgewkspam-CA080E.18502431082008@sn-ip.vsrv-
sjc.supernews.net>, georgewkspam@humboldt1.com says...
> Can one live in a former "commercial" or industrial area ? California

It depends on how the individual property is zoned. I would call
the County Clerk's office to ask how to look up the info.

Also, there is issue of whether you personally own the building,
or whether it is a rental. Although that may be a "getting away
with it" type of issue.

--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 1 2008 8:33 pm
From: phil scott

On Aug 31, 6:50 pm, former POW <georgewks...@humboldt1.com> wrote:
> Can one live in a former "commercial" or industrial area ? California
> --
> If guns are out-lawed. Only the Out-laws & politicians will have guns.

sure... people do it all the time... the issue is trying to rent
habital spacew that does not meet code... then the *landlord has a
problem... but you..you can live where ever..even in the doorway of
city hall... the police cant handle that sort of thing. especially if
there are no complaints. squatters are comon also.

enjoy... peace brother.

Phil scott

==============================================================================
TOPIC: monk privatdetektiv in Freising wirtschaftsermittlungen detektei de
privatdetektiv werden detektei sachsen
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/03a73eec27216bc5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 1 2008 2:35 pm
From: fdsghdfhgd@googlemail.com

monk privatdetektiv in Freising wirtschaftsermittlungen detektei de
privatdetektiv werden detektei sachsen

+
+
+
+
+++ DETEKTEIEN DETEKTIVE ONLINE +++ DETEKTEI HAMBURG +++
PRIVATDETEKTIVE +++
+
+
http://WWW.DETEKTEI-DETEKTIV.INFO
http://WWW.DETEKTEI-DETEKTIV.INFO
http://WWW.DETEKTEI-DETEKTIV.INFO
http://WWW.DETEKTEI-DETEKTIV.INFO
http://WWW.DETEKTEI-DETEKTIV.INFO
http://WWW.DETEKTEI-DETEKTIV.INFO
http://WWW.DETEKTEI-DETEKTIV.INFO
http://WWW.DETEKTEI-DETEKTIV.INFO
http://WWW.DETEKTEI-DETEKTIV.INFO
+
+
+
+

##################################################################################

+
+
+++ DETEKTEIEN DETEKTIVE ONLINE +++ DETEKTEI HAMBURG +++
PRIVATDETEKTIVE +++

detektive duesseldorf wie wird man privatdetektiv in Osterholz-
Scharmbeck
dedektei privatdetektiv augsburg in Schweinfurt
man privatdetektiv private detective in Lüneburg
privatdetektive hamburg ausbildung zum privatdetektiv in Schongau
Weilheim/Obb.
observieren privatdetektiv jim pauder in Fürth
detektei frankfurt am main detektive stuttgart in Viersen
auskunftei privatdetektiv karlsruhe in Westerstede
detektivagentur privatdetektiv muenster in Aschersleben

Input here your backlinks. One in each line. - detektei duisburg
detektei saarbruecken in Recklinghausen
Input here your backlinks. One in each line. - detektei koeln
privatdetektive muenchen in Biedenkopf
Input here your backlinks. One in each line. - privatdedektiv muenchen
privatdetektive in in Nordhorn
Input here your backlinks. One in each line. - detektei frankfurt
detektei koeln in Gunzenhausen
Input here your backlinks. One in each line. - privatdetektiv
karlsruhe detektei ses in Heilbronn
Input here your backlinks. One in each line. - detektei schleswig
privatdetektiv im in Friedberg
Input here your backlinks. One in each line. - detektei regensburg
privatdetektiv frankfurt in Bernburg
Input here your backlinks. One in each line. - detektei condor private
detektive in Ostprignitz
Input here your backlinks. One in each line. - zad detektiv detektiv
in Fallingbostel
Input here your backlinks. One in each line. - detektei aachen
auskunftei in Anklam
Input here your backlinks. One in each line. - detektei erfurt
detektei essen in Loerrach
Input here your backlinks. One in each line. - detektei darmstadt
detektei mainz in Dietzenbach
Input here your backlinks. One in each line. - detektei chemnitz
dedektei in Erlangen
Input here your backlinks. One in each line. - detektei sachsen
detektiv kamera in Staßfurt

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Bulova Maestro Collection Ladies Watch 96R02 Recommendation Discount
Watches
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d30246f44eeba653?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 1 2008 9:30 pm
From: hualibao054@gmail.com

Bulova Maestro Collection Ladies Watch 96R02 Recommendation Discount
Watches

Bulova Maestro Collection Ladies Watch 96R02 Site:
http://bulova-watches.pxhelp.com/Bulova-wristwatch-1121.html

Thank you for choosing http://www.pxhelp.com/

Quality Bulova Watches: http://bulova-watches.pxhelp.com/

Bulova Maestro Collection Ladies Watch 96R02 AdditionalInfo :

Watches Brand : Bulova Watches ( http://bulova-watches.pxhelp.com/ )
Gender : Ladies
Model : Bulova-96R02
Also Called :
Case Material : Stainless Steel
Movement : Quartz
Crystal : Mineral
Dial Color : Blue
Clasp : Stainless Steel
Bezel : 20 Diamonds
Case Thickness : 27mm
Water Resistant : 30m/100ft

Stainless Steel Case and Bracelet. Light Blue dial. 12 Diamonds on the
Bezel and 10 Diamonds on the Face. Water-resistant to 100ft
<BR><BR>Dimensions: 27mm Dial <BR><BR>Bulova Watch Style: Diamond
Maestro Collection 96R02

Other Bulova Watches You Might Like

==============================================================================
TOPIC: All about Jobs
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/fcb6af897d8bea76?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 1 2008 10:17 pm
From: payaljobs

Hi All

Great News for Jobs.

First ever online employee-oriented web portal www.jobsnetwork.in is
launched. There are great reviews and suggestions from the top most
professionals from varied fields that will help to make smart moves in
your career. Share your thoughts, experiences and comments on your
previous and current company/employer. You are invited to join our
discussion forum by visiting http://www.jobsnetwork.in/

A must visit site. It has something for everyone!!!

==============================================================================

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "misc.consumers.frugal-living"
group.

To post to this group, visit http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to misc.consumers.frugal-living+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com

To change the way you get mail from this group, visit:
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/subscribe?hl=en

To report abuse, send email explaining the problem to abuse@googlegroups.com

==============================================================================
Google Groups: http://groups.google.com?hl=en

Frugal Living

Blog Archive

Tuesday, September 2, 2008

19 new messages in 6 topics - digest

No comments: