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* Math on the bailout doesn't add up... - 5 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3213ff522966e10e?hl=en
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TOPIC: Math on the bailout doesn't add up...
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3213ff522966e10e?hl=en
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== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 11:19 pm
From: Gunner Asch
On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 22:22:23 -0400, Ann <nntpmail@epix.net> wrote:
>>
>> Got exactly what she didnt want, and did deserve, a vote against the
>> bailout.
>>
>> Sucks to be her eh?
>
>Why? She delivered the number of Democratic "yea" votes she committed to;
>it was the House Republicans who broke ranks and whose "yea" votes fell
>short.
Oddly enough...60% of the Democrats voted against it
Seems that both sides had people who voted their consience against hte
bail out, which is frankly surprising for democrats
Gunner
"Obama, raises taxes and kills babies. Sarah Palin - raises babies
and kills taxes." Pyotr Flipivich
== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 11:21 pm
From: Bob Brock
On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 23:19:49 -0700, Gunner Asch
<gunner@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:
>On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 22:22:23 -0400, Ann <nntpmail@epix.net> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Got exactly what she didnt want, and did deserve, a vote against the
>>> bailout.
>>>
>>> Sucks to be her eh?
>>
>>Why? She delivered the number of Democratic "yea" votes she committed to;
>>it was the House Republicans who broke ranks and whose "yea" votes fell
>>short.
>
>
>Oddly enough...60% of the Democrats voted against it
>
>Seems that both sides had people who voted their consience against hte
>bail out, which is frankly surprising for democrats
Well, it was a fix proposed by the Republicans after all. Why would
it suprise you that a majority of the Democrats didn't support it?
== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 11:38 pm
From: Curly Surmudgeon
On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 06:04:26 +0000, Michael Coburn wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 22:12:35 -0400, Jim wrote:
>
>> Michael Coburn wrote:
>>
>>> Jim wrote:
>>> > Elmo wrote:
>>> >> Jitney wrote:
>>> >> > It is hard to find statistics on the mortgage crisis, so I'm
>>> >> > making an estimate. There are about 100 million households in the
>>> >> > USA, assuming 10% are in default or foreclosure, which I think is
>>> >> > a high estimate, subtracting rentals from the 100 million (if you
>>> >> > can refute me from a credible authority, I would love to be
>>> >> > corrected). Ten million divided into 700 billion works out to
>>> >> > $700,000 per distressed property, which should on the average buy
>>> >> > out each property twice. What is happening to the rest? I think
>>> >> > this is a massive raid on the US treasury, with a threat of a
>>> >> > Great Depression if we don't pay up, and that isn't even counting
>>> >> > AIG, Countrywide, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and Bear Stearns. Wall
>>> >> > Street is stealing more than the Huns that raided the Roman
>>> >> > Empire, with similar results. And this is not the end. Congress
>>> >> > forked over 25 Billion to the automakers, the airlines are next,
>>> >> > and who then? Ben and Jerries? We are looking at a new Dark Ages.
>>> >>
>>> >> You're focusing too narrowly. The problem isn't the mortgages
>>> >> alone, it's all of the "derivatives" which have been used to "create
>>> >> value" and "manage risk". Over half of the GDP of the USA comes
>>> >> from counting each link in the chain as Tom sells something to Dick
>>> >> who turns around and sells it to Harry who breaks it into pieces and
>>> >> sells shares of it to Louise and Louise buys a credit default swap
>>> >> from Thelma. It's a lot like the Dutch tulip mania except that
>>> >> there is precious little of actual, material value underneath it.
>>> >> And of course almost all of it has been done with borrowed money --
>>> >> sometimes as little as 1% of the "value" being provided in the form
>>> >> of recognizable assets.
>>> >>
>>> >> Even those assets are suspect since so much of the concept of
>>> >> "value" for equity shares has come to be estimated based on declared
>>> >> earnings which are all too easy to manipulate as the current quarter
>>> >> comes to a close and the bonus calculations and stock options start
>>> >> to come out.
>>> >
>>> > well put Elmo. sadly though most if not the vast majority have 0%
>>> > understanding for what you just explained.
>>> >
>>> > the real and tangible GDP relates to manufacturing. the country with
>>> > the in country manufacturing has the wealth. the government of a
>>> > country with manufacturing has a real and taxable infrastructure
>>> > allowing that government of said country to collect real and usable
>>> > revenues.
>>> >
>>> > if the workers had simply learned their place in the overall scheme
>>> > of things and not attempted to exploit those with investment capital
>>> > then america just might still be the number one country with the most
>>> > jobs in manufacturing of real and durable goods.
>>> >
>>> > but some worker bees got together and attempted to reverse the roles
>>> > of who exploits who. funny how those with investment capital smiled
>>> > and waved bye, then simply moved on to a new location were hungry
>>> > people [worker bees] were eager to be employed / [exploited].
>>>
>>> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>> from your posting header
>> Organization: NewsGuy - Unlimited Usenet $19.95
>>
>> do you really pay $19.95 to gain access to usenet?
>
> Nope.
>
>
>>> This is the typical horseshit of "trickle down" rich bitch thievery to
>>> which the Republicans have _ALWAYS_ subscribed. The lie is that the
>>> rich people are necessary to a functioning economy in that they provide
>>> the "capital" (a total distortion of the word) that allows businesses
>>> to be built and that these businesses (all of which are very large)
>>> "create jobs". The reality is that work needs to be done regardless of
>>> whether there is a some rich bitch or not.
>>>
>>> But the "financial industry" is a fine example of a lot of "jobs" that
>>> _ARE_ created by the idle rich and a fine example of work that doesn't
>>> need doing and which would not need doing if the rich were not
>>> constantly blowing speculative bubbles to further enrich themselves.
>>
>> the two above paragraphs you wrote pretty much demonstrate how you do
>> not truly understand where [real and tangible] investment capital
>> reside.
>
> And you are now demonstrating that you are clueless. Maybe we could start
> your education by you telling the rest of us what you think "investment
> capital" might be.
>
>>> The total collapse of all the derivatives will hurt only those who were
>>> a part of the big casino in the sky. And the sooner that house of
>>> betting slips implodes, the sooner a REAL financial sector can take
>>> over and the sooner REAL investments can take place.
>>
>> without real and tangible investment capital then all there is left is a
>> "casino in the sky". and now it's time for that imaginary "casino in
>> the sky" to crash. a return to the sound business practices of you can
>> buy today what you can pay for today would do wonders as a cure all for
>> the concept of got to have it now and maybe it'll get paid for tomorrow
>> way of life americans are addicted to.
>
> There is a very real need for credit in a properly functioning economy.
Been with you to this point but here we differ. Strongly. "a properly
functioning market" is so abstract to make it meaningless. Some people
believe that no markets functions "properly" on credit.
> But in most cases it has next to nothing to do with saved up money or
> clearing balances or big piles of gold. The concept of a "down payment"
> is of much benefit. But even that can be too restrictive. Proper
> regulation is a trade for better liquidity.
And cash on the barrel head is even better.
I do not see a failure of credit markets as a bad thing. More like a
reality check with a 2x4. If you cannot finance your business out of
pocket or growth then you've leveraged your affairs for profit at the risk
of foreclosure.
This is what the Wall Street Tycoons did, they leveraged their companies
based upon falsely valued, repackaged, loan agreements. When the loans
went belly-up Wall Street was too exposed, or too leveraged, to fund their
gambles.
In the real world that's called "tough shit, sherlock." Banks, S&L's,
Mortgage houses alike gambled then took borrowers equity and homes when
they couldn't pay. I feel absolutely no pity for the loan sharks that now
have their own tit in a wringer.
In fact I think it's Karma.
--
Regards, Curly
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== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 11:41 pm
From: Curly Surmudgeon
On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 06:06:09 +0000, Michael Coburn wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 00:54:07 -0400, Jim wrote:
>
>> Dave wrote:
>>>
>>> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>> >
>>> > from your posting header
>>> > Organization: NewsGuy - Unlimited Usenet $19.95
>>> >
>>> > do you really pay $19.95 to gain access to usenet?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> Pretty soon we all will, or we won't have usenet.
>>
>> no, usenet is a subset of the internet. after accessing the internet
>> you can noodle around a bit and then access usenet.
>
> Some of us have little time for noodling.
You noodle??? What's the biggest catfish you've grabbed? That is one
insane sport that I refused to try after watching. In-law of a buddy
grabbed a 60 lb catfish that took him to the bottom for way too long.
--
Regards, Curly
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== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 11:49 pm
From: Curly Surmudgeon
On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 23:19:49 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 22:22:23 -0400, Ann <nntpmail@epix.net> wrote:
>
>
>>> Got exactly what she didnt want, and did deserve, a vote against the
>>> bailout.
>>>
>>> Sucks to be her eh?
>>
>>Why? She delivered the number of Democratic "yea" votes she committed
>>to; it was the House Republicans who broke ranks and whose "yea" votes
>>fell short.
>
>
> Oddly enough...60% of the Democrats voted against it
>
> Seems that both sides had people who voted their consience against hte
> bail out, which is frankly surprising for democrats
>
> Gunner
Are you finally admitting that your sneering comments, in various forms,
about the economy being just peachy were horribly wrong?
--
Regards, Curly
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