Frugal Living: misc.consumers.frugal-living - 24 new messages in 8 topics

Sunday, December 7, 2008

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 24 new messages in 8 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Why not a holiday from auto buying?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/9e36c73bdf3daf50?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 12:23 pm
From: James

On Dec 6, 2:41 pm, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
> For the next 6 months, at least, think about refraining from buying a
> new vehicle. If yours totally fails buy a used car or truck. (By the
> way, a new car is a crummy investment i.e. instant depreciation)
> Or have yours repaired. The current cars and trucks can easily run
> for 200,000 or more miles. This "holiday" will give us a chance to see
> if the Big 3 can make satisfactory progress i.e. restructuring.
>
> ted

I would think these are great times to buy a new car. Dealers are
going under and need to sell stock cheap. May be able to pick up a
REAL bargin.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 1:48 pm
From: dennism3@dennism3.invalid (Dennis M)

In article
<7acbe238-dfee-4df4-b917-56ee8e37662c@v39g2000pro.googlegroups.com>, James
<j0069bond@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I would think these are great times to buy a new car. Dealers are
>going under and need to sell stock cheap. May be able to pick up a
>REAL bargin.

I ran across a GM infocommercial for Buick/Pontiac/GMC this morning, never
seen them do that before.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 2:26 pm
From: George

Bob F wrote:
> "George" <george@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
> news:ghh46i$oac$1@news.motzarella.org...
>> hal@nospam.com wrote:
>>> On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 03:09:48 -0800 (PST), Anonymous Infidel - the
>>> anti-political talking head <messiah2999@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> is dead...Killed by Democrats who bashed our economy into submission
>>> idiot. Regulation is the responsibility of The Executive. It's the
>>> Republicans who pushed for deregulation, and it's deregulation that
>>> gave us this crisis. This is a Bush depression.
>> Then you might asked yourself who approved the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act (hint,
>> he was president in 1999) which repealed most of the banking regulations that
>> were put into effect after the last great depression. That laid the groundwork
>> for most of our current situation.
>
> And who was it that passed it for him to approve?
>
>
I hoped someone would mention that. You just have to laugh when people
who drink either red or blue kool-aid get upset about the -other- party
when the reality is all of the politicians are owned by the fat cats and
special interests. The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act is a perfect example of
that. The red congress created it and the blue president supported and
signed it. And it met the intended result. The fat cats were free to do
almost anything they wanted generating remarkably similar results to the
great depression.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:17 pm
From: aemeijers

James wrote:
> On Dec 6, 2:41 pm, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> For the next 6 months, at least, think about refraining from buying a
>> new vehicle. If yours totally fails buy a used car or truck. (By the
>> way, a new car is a crummy investment i.e. instant depreciation)
>> Or have yours repaired. The current cars and trucks can easily run
>> for 200,000 or more miles. This "holiday" will give us a chance to see
>> if the Big 3 can make satisfactory progress i.e. restructuring.
>>
>> ted
>
> I would think these are great times to buy a new car. Dealers are
> going under and need to sell stock cheap. May be able to pick up a
> REAL bargin.

I've looked. Can't find anything I'd care to own. All pug-ugly gigantic
Hot Wheels cars, these days. (especially all the current Chrysler
products.) What are their stylists smoking? Even Honda and Mercedes look
like crap lately, with those silly wrap-around $500 headlights and
too-tall beltlines that everyone else is using. They don't even look
like cars and pickups any more. And since I need a vehicle with hauling
capability, what is with those jellybean cargo areas on anything with a
tailgate? You have to shove anything tall in about two feet to close the
gate.

You damn kids get off my lawn!

--
aem rants....

==============================================================================
TOPIC: 533,000 Jobs Lost While Feds Import 140,000 Foreign Workers!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/a1526898a9ebc1d2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 12:27 pm
From: Mike

On Sat, 06 Dec 2008 11:33:26 -0800, RickH wrote:

> Computer programing also used to be a reliable career field, now I would
> never recommend that any student in America go into IT or programming in
> general.

the decline in the value of computer programming careers was the natural
result of the rise of microsoft because the smart programmers refused to
be caged by the lame ass windows environment and went off to find greener
pastures elsewhere. another reason is that venture capitalists don't
like funding software projects for which, on the off chance one actually
becomes highly successful, the profits will all wind up in the hands of a
highly predatory monopolistic law firm that specializes in violating
antitrust (ie. msft).

== 2 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 1:00 pm
From: Kurt Ullman

In article <88U_k.4979$YU6.1068@bignews8.bellsouth.net>,
suds macheath <sudsmcduff19911@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Kurt Ullman wrote:
> > In article <4ku_k.382964$vK2.67641@en-nntp-03.dc1.easynews.com>,
> > John Galt <kady101@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> You can be losing jobs at whatever rate you like, but if there's not
> >> enough RNs coming out of nursing schools to fill the openings, you
> >> either bring them in from elsewhere or go without. You don't want people
> >> who don't know what the hell they're doing administering meds to patients.
> >>
> >> Or teaching math, for that matter. Gene Green (D-Houston) has sponsored
> >> a bill to waive the immigrant worker visa filing fees for elementary and
> >> secondary schoools; Rep. Green is a pro-labor Democrat. What's
> >> responsible for that dissonance?
> > If I were a cynic, I would think that even imported teachers will
> > have to join the teacher's union.
>
> ----In Texas? BWAHAHAHA....ever heard of "right to work"?

Forgot it was Texas. Although the more people are teachers, the more
are likely to join. If one in ten joins a union, I would rather have 100
new teachers than ten.

== 3 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 2:04 pm
From: John Galt

Lubow wrote:
>>
>> It has nothing to do with red/blue. Starting salary in Houston is 38K,
>> Dallas 37K, and Kansas City 36K, while they're under 32K in
>> Philadelphia and Chicago, and 34.5K in D.C. I suspect the beginning
>> teacher in the NYC Metro Area (42K) is a lot more likely to be on food
>> stamps than the starting teacher in Houston.
>
>
> You're looking at all teachers, not just the tenured teachers.

I'm looking at starting salaries only. That's the context under which
the topic was brought into the discussion.

Big
> difference. Think of it as what NFL rookies get compared to what the
> vets get for doing essentially the same work.
>
> Anyway, I'm in the NY metro area and the biggest problem facing our
> school district is the amount of space allocated to parking. It seems
> the teachers do not want cars to either side of their Lexuses or Beemers.

== 4 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:13 pm
From: Goomba

patmpowers@gmail.com wrote:

>> You can be losing jobs at whatever rate you like, but if there's not
>> enough RNs coming out of nursing schools to fill the openings, you
>> either bring them in from elsewhere or go without. You don't want people
>> who don't know what the hell they're doing administering meds to patients.
>
> According to a friend in the health care business, the reason they
> can't get enough health care workers is that the wages are too low.
> Think $8 hour. Instead workers are being imported from overseas,
> particularly the Philippines, and they may not provide good care.

No one in Nursing makes only $8/hour. UN-licensed assistants *might*
(and I think wages are still higher) but they're not nurses nor should
they be confused as such.

== 5 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:18 pm
From: Goomba

harry wrote:

> Hello JG,
>
> You sound quite sure of yourself:
>
> When i was a little girl, my family was quarantined because our duplex
> neighbor had suspect polio. When i was doing HHA work, not only were
> AIDS patients not quarantined, but there was some kind of "law" that
> stated no HHA was allowed to know whether or not the patient had AIDS.
> I quit the field, and went back to sitting behind a desk. A lot of
> people did similar.
>

Well, not to berate you but you do know you can't catch HIV from close
contact, right? There is and never was any reason to quarantine someone
with HIV.
And obviously there is no need to "know" who has HIV as you are supposed
to assume *everyone* has it and act accordingly. Don't swap body fluids
with anyone, yada yada yada....

== 6 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:24 pm
From: BobR

On Dec 7, 6:25 am, John Galt <kady...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Kurt Ullman wrote:
> > In article <nuI_k.392484$3I2.191...@en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com>,
> > John Galt <kady...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> I can tell you that in Houston, the starting wage for an RN is about 50K
> >> - 60K , and there's not enough to go around. Nursing wages are regional,
> >> and your part of the country may differ. But down here, they are *not*
> >> being brought to save money -- they're being brought because there's not
> >> enough coming out of the nursing schools to meet demand.
>
> >> JG
>
> > The nursing shortage probably isn't at that end. Studies have
> > consistently shown that between 15% and 20% of RNs under 65 are no
> > longer in nursing. You get even half of those back and you are in good
> > shape. Even at the height of my youthful powers, I couldn't take more
> > than 3 years at a time before I had to get out at least for awhile.
>
> Yea, that's the other issue. Since the consolidation of private hospital
> chains (you probably know this better than I do) floor nurse/patient
> ratios have skyrocketed, making the job a crappy one. (Doesn't explain
> why the schools are short on nurses, but the entire "job satisfaction"
> thing is obviously playing in.
>
> JG- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

With the growing uncertain future of the healthcare field, nobody sees
healthcare as a good choice for a career. Who wants to spend huge
sums of money on graduate and post graduate degrees along with the
subsequent low paying years as a resident for a career that may only
pay the equilivent of teacher pay?

== 7 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:26 pm
From: Goomba

John Galt wrote:
> clams_casino wrote:

>> The primary problems with nursing are the wacky hours, expected
>> overtime and minimal increases in salary beyond that starting pay.
>
> Well, wacky brings overtime, and nurses can always increase
> certification to earn more. Surgical nurses make considerably more than
> floor RNs.
>
Not quite. Nurses with special skills and certifications earn more, even
when working on floors. Working in a "surgical" environment has nothing
to do with it.
And as a natural night owl, there is nothing "wacky" to me about working
nights. I do enjoy getting that night shift differential though.
I work 24 hours a week and earn about 70K a year. Not too shabby, IMO.

== 8 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:28 pm
From: Goomba

Lubow wrote:

> I have read of teachers in the red states requiring food stamps to get
> by. Thanks for sharing that piece of info.

None that I know do. But don't let me detract you from a little injected
drama.

== 9 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:30 pm
From: "HeyBub"

John Galt wrote:
>>
>> I have read of teachers in the red states requiring food stamps to
>> get by. Thanks for sharing that piece of info.
>
> It has nothing to do with red/blue. Starting salary in Houston is 38K,
> Dallas 37K, and Kansas City 36K, while they're under 32K in
> Philadelphia and Chicago, and 34.5K in D.C. I suspect the beginning
> teacher in the NYC Metro Area (42K) is a lot more likely to be on
> food stamps than the starting teacher in Houston.
>

Take that Houston $38K and wind it down to an hourly rate.

Let's see... Texas mandates 180 days of instruction. At seven hours per day,
that's 1,260 hours. $38,000/1260 is a bit over $30/hour. Not as much as a
Detroit auto-worker, but not chump-change either.

Here's another bit of trivia: The Houston Independent School District spends
about 45% of it's employee budget on teacher salaries and perks. Oh, you've
got to have somebody to drive the busses and print the paychecks, but when
less than half your personnel costs go directly to your primary mission,
something's amiss.

== 10 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:35 pm
From: "HeyBub"

John Galt wrote:
> Kurt Ullman wrote:
>> In article <nuI_k.392484$3I2.191356@en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com>,
>> John Galt <kady101@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I can tell you that in Houston, the starting wage for an RN is
>>> about 50K - 60K , and there's not enough to go around. Nursing
>>> wages are regional, and your part of the country may differ. But
>>> down here, they are *not* being brought to save money -- they're
>>> being brought because there's not enough coming out of the nursing
>>> schools to meet demand. JG
>>
>> The nursing shortage probably isn't at that end. Studies have
>> consistently shown that between 15% and 20% of RNs under 65 are no
>> longer in nursing. You get even half of those back and you are in
>> good shape. Even at the height of my youthful powers, I couldn't
>> take more than 3 years at a time before I had to get out at least
>> for awhile.
>
> Yea, that's the other issue. Since the consolidation of private
> hospital chains (you probably know this better than I do) floor
> nurse/patient ratios have skyrocketed, making the job a crappy one.
> (Doesn't explain why the schools are short on nurses, but the entire
> "job satisfaction" thing is obviously playing in.
>

Some of the declining RN/patient ratio has to do with automation. Nurses no
longer have to take your temperature, heart rate, and blood pressure every
hour - they can watch it minute-by-minute on the monitors at the nurse's
station. The amount of paperwork has gone down as computers take over more
and more of the record-keeping.

== 11 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:38 pm
From: clams_casino

suds macheath wrote:

>
> ---Teacher's don't get paid through the summer months..

Call it what you want. They average $60k around here for a job that
provides them with 12 weeks and a dozen holidays off. Try to find that
in the corporate world.

> ..they are 10 month employees...you have to work for a while to save
> up 60 vacation days.....and here they are limited to 60 days....
>
> Other than UAW
>
>> and government employees, I'm not aware of many paying full (or even
>> 90%) health coverage.
>
>
> ----But most have health care benefits for salaried employees, do they
> not?

But typically at about 40-50% - not 90m- 100%.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The Next Bank Heist: DEBIT CARDS
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/535b1a94bef90ab2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 12:43 pm
From: sarge137

On Dec 7, 1:22 pm, sarge137 <rbooth9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Dec 7, 12:34 pm, Vic Smith <thismailautodele...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 10:59:34 -0800 (PST), sarge137
>
> > <rbooth9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >On Dec 7, 7:24 am, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
> > >> > > As to using credit cards, I'll still use mine whenever possible to
> > >> > > get that reward credit. My debit card pays zilch.
>
> > >> > I agree. I use my Visa card as much as possible. I pay it off in full
> > >> > each month and I collect points toward air mileage. It also lets me
> > >> > avoid the need to carry around as much cash with me, which makes it less
> > >> > likely that I will be robbed of my money.
>
> > >> after doing a multi year look at reward cards I decided they arent
> > >> worth the bother.
>
> > >Same here. With my clean as a whistle credit reports, and near max
> > >FICO scores, pretty much every credit card in the country has
> > >solicited me over the years, multiple times. I've carefully reviewed
> > >every "reward" program. Haven't seen one yet that would prompt me to
> > >change from the card I've been carrying since the early 70s. I see
> > >claims all the time that people net hundreds of dollars a year in
> > >rewards payments. Frankly, I don't believe them. I move thousands of
> > >dollars a year through my credit card account, and haven't found one
> > >yet that would NET me that much.
>
> > >If anyone knows of a reward program with ALL of the following criteria
> > >please post a link. I'd love to see it:
>
> > >1. No annual fee.
> > >2. Substantial credit line (at least 15K)
> > >3. Full 30 day grace period from date of transaction.
> > >4. No minimum average balance.
> > >5. Fix APR less than 8%.
> > >6. Includes every penny of all transactions, not just retail
> > >purchases.
> > >7. Pays rewards by check at least semi-annually.
>
> > I pretty much felt like you did, mostly because I was too lazy to
> > switch the card I've been using for many years.
> > I think I entertained getting a CitiBank card a couple years ago, but
> > said nah.
> > Anyway, Chase started their Freedom card a while back, and I bank and
> > CC with them, so I had them send me that card. That was May.
> > Just deposited a $200 check from the rewards, and there's $45 waiting.
> > Have to hit $50 for them to cut a check.
> > So that was free money. I figure it'll end up close to $300 for the 8
> > months this year I've had it.
> > You can look up the details yourself because I hate reading that crap,
> > but I can tell you it meets or exceeds all your criteria except APR.
> > Don't know what the APR is, because it never affects me.
>
> > --Vic
>
> I'll give'em a look - thanks for the info.
>
> The interest rate doesn't effect me directly either. Haven't paid any
> in years. But it's a point of principal. High volume customers, on
> whom they make major transaction fees, should be charged double
> digital interest if they have to let a balance ride for a short time.

Correction - "shouldn't" be charged double digit interest

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:33 pm
From: clams_casino

sarge137 wrote:

>On Dec 7, 7:24 am, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>>As to using credit cards, I'll still use mine whenever possible to
>>>>get that reward credit. My debit card pays zilch.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>I agree. I use my Visa card as much as possible. I pay it off in full
>>>each month and I collect points toward air mileage. It also lets me
>>>avoid the need to carry around as much cash with me, which makes it less
>>>likely that I will be robbed of my money.
>>>
>>>
>>after doing a multi year look at reward cards I decided they arent
>>worth the bother.
>>
>>
>
>Same here. With my clean as a whistle credit reports, and near max
>FICO scores, pretty much every credit card in the country has
>solicited me over the years, multiple times. I've carefully reviewed
>every "reward" program. Haven't seen one yet that would prompt me to
>change from the card I've been carrying since the early 70s. I see
>claims all the time that people net hundreds of dollars a year in
>rewards payments. Frankly, I don't believe them. I move thousands of
>dollars a year through my credit card account, and haven't found one
>yet that would NET me that much.
>
>If anyone knows of a reward program with ALL of the following criteria
>please post a link. I'd love to see it:
>
>1. No annual fee.
>2. Substantial credit line (at least 15K)
>3. Full 30 day grace period from date of transaction.
>4. No minimum average balance.
>5. Fix APR less than 8%.
>6. Includes every penny of all transactions, not just retail
>purchases.
>7. Pays rewards by check at least semi-annually.
>
>
>

My Chase Visa Freedom card meets most of the listed requirement.
Lacking is just a 20 day grace period, but that's no longer a problem
having an an online account to track & pay off the account. (Discover
has a 25 day grace period, but rebates tend to be more limited) and the
8% interest rate. Mine is 14%, but I haven't paid interest on a credit
card in over 30 years so it's a moot point for me.
I'm not sure what you are asking via #6. The rewards are a percentage
of every charge, in full, although the percentage ranges from 1 - 3 %
for that acrd, depending on the general category, including charges for
eBay fees and my cable bill.

Since the Chase Visa pays 3% on three categories, but only 1% elsewhere,
I use it for groceries, gas and cable bill. I charge some to my
Discover card to get 5% rebates on selected items in certain months with
the rest going to another card that provides a 2% rebate on all other
charges as points against motel stays (essentially $1 per point,
although not cash as you request).

None of these three have annual fees, all are >$15K credit line, none
have a minimum balance and two pay via cash. For me, the third pays
an equally useable alternative. None have the 30 grace or <8% interest
rate, but both a moot points for me. I don't understand item #6, but
all three pay a refund on the total amount charged, regardless of the
source (except cash advances).

I typically enjoy $400 / year form the Chase card, another $100/ yr
from Discover and several hundred dollars / yr in cash equivalent motel
rooms - all by simply using a charge card vs.cash. I typically don't
charge <$20, where I could realize even more.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:34 pm
From: clams_casino

Vic Smith wrote:

>On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 10:59:34 -0800 (PST), sarge137
><rbooth9858@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>On Dec 7, 7:24 am, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>>As to using credit cards, I'll still use mine whenever possible to
>>>>>get that reward credit. My debit card pays zilch.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>I agree. I use my Visa card as much as possible. I pay it off in full
>>>>each month and I collect points toward air mileage. It also lets me
>>>>avoid the need to carry around as much cash with me, which makes it less
>>>>likely that I will be robbed of my money.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>after doing a multi year look at reward cards I decided they arent
>>>worth the bother.
>>>
>>>
>>Same here. With my clean as a whistle credit reports, and near max
>>FICO scores, pretty much every credit card in the country has
>>solicited me over the years, multiple times. I've carefully reviewed
>>every "reward" program. Haven't seen one yet that would prompt me to
>>change from the card I've been carrying since the early 70s. I see
>>claims all the time that people net hundreds of dollars a year in
>>rewards payments. Frankly, I don't believe them. I move thousands of
>>dollars a year through my credit card account, and haven't found one
>>yet that would NET me that much.
>>
>>If anyone knows of a reward program with ALL of the following criteria
>>please post a link. I'd love to see it:
>>
>>1. No annual fee.
>>2. Substantial credit line (at least 15K)
>>3. Full 30 day grace period from date of transaction.
>>4. No minimum average balance.
>>5. Fix APR less than 8%.
>>6. Includes every penny of all transactions, not just retail
>>purchases.
>>7. Pays rewards by check at least semi-annually.
>>
>>
>>
>I pretty much felt like you did, mostly because I was too lazy to
>switch the card I've been using for many years.
>I think I entertained getting a CitiBank card a couple years ago, but
>said nah.
>Anyway, Chase started their Freedom card a while back, and I bank and
>CC with them, so I had them send me that card. That was May.
>Just deposited a $200 check from the rewards, and there's $45 waiting.
>Have to hit $50 for them to cut a check.
>
>
If you wait until $150, they will send you a check for $200.

>So that was free money. I figure it'll end up close to $300 for the 8
>months this year I've had it.
>You can look up the details yourself because I hate reading that crap,
>but I can tell you it meets or exceeds all your criteria except APR.
>Don't know what the APR is, because it never affects me.
>
>--Vic
>
>
>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Tax Fraud, cancer, and the IRS
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/78b4d9d9aca35c0e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 1:11 pm
From: phil scott

Many posting here are too young to recall the events related to gross
and ruthless corruption in the IRS ..... and its absolutely criminal
assaults on tax payers.

This led to congressinal investigations and an appalled congress in
the1980's... it seems the IRS had been engaged in the following:

- On the theory that going after one tax payer for small change,
ruthlessly.. would intimidate the rest they began using sledge hammers
to break down peoples doors to intimidate them... breaking the
windshield out of the volkswagen one pregnant tax payer was sitting
in, covering her with broken glass, when she refused to hand over her
wallet.

- Targeting very old people with paid off homes, arbitrarily send
them lien notices unless tens of thousands of dollars were paid
withhin 10 days. then seizing the homes if they didnt pay putting
many elderly on the street who in fact owned nothing...it drove many
to suicide... hard working people who helped build this nation...why?
so the criminal thugs in the IRS could get promotions.

thats a matter of congressional record.

Much of this was covered by the Readers Digest and also on 60
minutes..many times.. you can search it on google. key words 'IRS,
abuse, taxpayers, congressional investigation, suicides, elderly,
reforms, happening again'

***

The motives and drivers:

Its complex so I will address only the immediate motives. IRS
collectons agents were promoted and given raises in salary based on
how many liens they filed and enforcement actions they took... (the
more complex aspect involves the FED/IRS composit..its a private
operation, most dont know that... it does operate on US govt contracts
though. Search presidents Wilsons lament over that... he sighed the
original contracts. )

old folks, too old, too tired and feeble to fight back were their
primary targets of this ruthless scum. The tax claims were found to
be entirely without basis in many if not most of those cases, same
with imigrant businesses, another of the IRS's prime targets at the
time.... along with small business, one and two man shops not making
enough money to afford legal or even accounting assistance.

the IRS knew this, and targeted those extensively,

...with claims they knew were entirely bogus...and ruthless
enforcement that did 100 times more damage to their targets than any
legitimate tax owed... purpose to intimate the public into 'voluntary'
compliance.

that has failed for the the most part...the public has
caputulated..incentive to work, get educated and produce going going
gone..... we have now the current scene.

congressmen were seen crying as some of these testified...tear
streaming down some of their faces. The outrage resulted in some
changes... those have lasted about 15 years...but the ruthless
criminality is again ramping up... it will fail as all ruthless
criminality fails...

it ruins first its targets, then itself... as the idiots involve gloat
at their own good fortune to be 'workiing' for the govt. ... not
impressive.

I was one of the IRS targets in those days, because I was outspoken
then, as I am now.. so they came after me with automatic weapons and
sledge hammers breaking down the door to my home at the time... they
claimed I owed them 5,000 dollars. ... false. they did about 50,000
in damages. (thats when I ran them off with the 12 gage).

(I beat them in court later)

However not wishing a repeat of such crap I closed down my businesses
over the next few years, 27 employees at one of the operations..a
total of 50 or so in all... all those then out of work and no longer
paying any income taxes at all, in fact many going on welfare.

net loss to the tax base significant... we are seeing the same today
but its into the trillions now...let me explain.

I advise others that due to this nasty little habit of govt...dont
have a lot of taxable/ siezable assets, dont have high overhead costs
requiring high income with resulting high income tax exposure... keep
all that low, then you will not be mowed down or assaulted by machine
gun armed thugs as I was.. well they tried at least... I managed
to get the drop on them first.

(story in the 1975 Sacramento Calif Bee... key search term 3202 O
street)

At the time, the state said to me..... and its still in their
professional licensing exams... "we go after 'non payers' with the
goal of putting them out of business"....

"because we know the work has to get done, and if those who don't pay
are put out of business, then those who *do pay will do the work and
we will collect the taxes"...

"thats why we do this' ..."so pay your taxes" most of their exams
today have test questions on the topic as well.

so thats the thinking you see.... its bogus of course. The work
does not 'have' to get done.

***

My view, we are all willing to pay our *fair share...most of us at
least, I had a long history of that then, and since, often on 1040
form work not claiming any deductions... I let em keep the money. I
support fair taxation and pay a lot of taxes, direct and hidden.

Taxes at ruinous levels however, ruin the nation... no decent american
when they understand it well, support that.

***

beyond that level of taxation it destroys us, at that level we owe it
to ourselves not to self destruct....

its not rocket science and is addressed in the US
constitution. ..in fact this nation was founded on a tax rebellion, a
1% tea tax to be exact...now we have a net 51% tax rate on all of our
production (most of it going to pay interest to the foreign bankers
who loan paper money to us at interest via the FED).

Its a massive fraud half dozen US presidents have spoken the point...
search youtube for some video on the topic.. zeitgeist, fed.

btw in 1930 the income tax rate on the highest earners was 1%...now
its over 50% on blue collar workers... see?

that has had some disasterous effects...the US is no longer
competitive in the world economy, we are going out of work, the tax
base is in collapse, collapsing our own govt.

****

Cancer

this is what happens when any growth on any living organism turns
cancerous...it seeks its own interests, the cancer cells interests,
the civil 'servants' interests..other vested interests and kills its
host.

***

the 'work' does not actually have to be done.... duhhh...the building
does not have to be either built....or fixed, it can collapse into
ruins just like detroit...to total slum status... Entrepreneurs can
and do fade away...they do then when success is penalized to the point
of ruin... only criminals in govt and on the street are left standing.

the banana republcis prime examples.

****

the economy can shrink... the tax base can evaporate...

then the govt and tax payer collapse.. ... and thats whats occuring
now. for those reasons and only those reasons.

This those glorious tax collectors with the machine guns and sledge
hammers out of a job... while making about 200 million of us tax
collector targets, with only 100,000 tax collectors, and the blood
gone from all the turnips on top of it...no way to pay for any of
that, and govt with absolutely no recourse but to collapse.

it happens like clock work in world history.

thats how its playing out nation wide now...with the primary seizable
assets, homes goiing under water and not saleable in an economy
bankrupted by a net 70% tax rate (direct and hidden taxes).

***

. always it goes this way.. first decent, useful and valid govt
bloats, then becomes a bleed on the culture..

.both parents have to work to survive, they can't save, they can't
educate their kids... the kids grow up out of contol, poorly
educated....the work force is degraded.

production collapses.

govt bloat then goes vicious in an attempt to squeeze blood from the
destitute...

the ruthlessness takes out the rest of the productive culture.

At this viciously destructive stage good govt has turned to a
malignant cancer.

then sadly as we see all though history these are all thats left of
the breeding stock...cancer cells.... it turns into more cancer,
producing kiddies who do not produce either..

.always in these end stages you see this.

collapse happens at light speed after that... the US right now on that
threshold with time run out in many aspects.

***

Recent examples: the USSR, 1970's...just starting to recover,
Germany in the 1930's, thern ruthlessness, then a hundred mlllion
killed, then collpse, Italy in the same camp, much of tthe balkans,
Earlier it was France, search Bastile day on google, and find out what
happend to the civil servants heads and why... same thing happened iin
Romania 20 years ago.... and early in many nations all though history.

these are naturally occuring patterns, unstoppable apparently, driven
by human nature and the drive any organism has to grow and survive...
even govt agencies... the grow, then as will all aging things, distort
and corrupt.. then die.

The US is now, exactly and precicely on the same path, same
trajectory with the same drivers...and same inevitable outcome.

** the cure! oh yes... there IS in fact a cure...hope **

The cure. Cut govt by 80%, default on the bogus 150k pensions, reboot
voluntarily..

who did that? ??!

Argentina... in the last quarter century... they are booming now.

Thank you very much,

adendum

I post by my real name btw, and it is traceable on the web.. and yes
the IRS hates my guts and has tried to take retribution several times,
each time it gets worse for them....

historically as seen recently in the USSR and currently in china such
outspoken types as myself are imprisoned or shot... .. then the nation
collapses....

myself, Id rather be shot than see my nation ruined by non productive
scum, currently using tax payer money by the trillions to pay bonus's
to their criminal cohortsrunning the fraudulent bank loan and
derivitives schemes.

sorry, thats just how it is.

Phil scott

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Folks, this is a real depression, protect your assets
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/cb1cc803cf7130ab?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 1:12 pm
From: Dan

Gunner Asch wrote:
> On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 22:17:59 -0500, "Dave" <noway1@noway2.not> wrote:
>
>> A rail system is a vacuum which sucks up all the commuters' money to
>> subsidize cheap tickets for the very few people who want to use it.
>>
>>> What if people could drive 5 miles to a depot and then ride
>>> in comfort to a central location?
>> The people would do exactly what they do now...they'd drive to work. Even
>> $5/gallon gas won't stop people from driving to work...what makes you think
>> you can build a rail system that people will actually want to ride? Because
>> virtually nobody wants to ride it now.
>
>
> I live 42 miles from the closest railroad. Doesnt seem like mass transit
> would do me much good.
>
> I do however work in So. Cal. As a service tech, I may hit 3-5 clients a
> day, many 40 miles apart or more
>
> Rail wont do me much good either.

And, of course, it's all about you...

Dan

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Miss Manners on credit cards and protective clerks/managers
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/d050e2dac2223a44?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 1:20 pm
From: Steve Daniels

On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 15:15:00 -0800, against all advice, something
compelled Coffee's For Closers <USENET2008@THE-DOMAIN-IN.SIG>, to
say:

> The logic is to make a credit card transaction as easy as
> possible. So that you won't be discouraged by the small extra
> hassle of ID. The Visa and MasterCard associations want card
> usage to be as easy as cash, or even easier.

You know on the back, on that little strip where you're supposed
to put your signature? Mine says, "Ask for picture ID."

Real men don't text.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: UGG Boot
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/c261fce831dcf40e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 1:59 pm
From: MSfortune@mcpmail.com

On Dec 7, 8:25 am, fdge...@126.com wrote:
> We supply UGG boots , please click it :
>
> http://www.nice110.com/Show.Asp?ClassId=188&id=547
>
> Top quality, lowest price, safely shipping, Perfectly after service
> and
> Good public praise. Paypal is accepted. In interested, please dont
> hesitate to contact with us.

Good public praise is so important and safely shipping is wonderful.
You wouldn't want someone dropping your boots and damaging them.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: 79% of GM owned by financial institutuions, they are pimping for a
bailout to protect their asses.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/0c879ab252ece621?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:05 pm
From: wismel@yahoo.com

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/mh?s=GM

Oh, how they sing of the poor workers and a "devastated" economy.
Utter bullshit. In a bankruptcy those GM shares could go worthless.
This banker propaganda machine for a loan, bailout or whatever you
want to
call it, just buys them time to dump their shares.

ted

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 3:32 pm
From: hpope@lycos.com

On Dec 7, 4:05 pm, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
> http://finance.yahoo.com/q/mh?s=GM
>
> Oh, how they sing of the poor workers and a "devastated" economy.
> Utter bullshit. In a bankruptcy those GM shares could go worthless.
> This banker propaganda machine for a loan, bailout or whatever you
> want to
> call it, just buys them time to dump their shares.
>
> ted

This bailout is the biggest con job since the attack on Iraq to
eliminate "weapons of
mass destruction.

Mitch

==============================================================================

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "misc.consumers.frugal-living"
group.

To post to this group, visit http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to misc.consumers.frugal-living+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com

To change the way you get mail from this group, visit:
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/subscribe?hl=en

To report abuse, send email explaining the problem to abuse@googlegroups.com

==============================================================================
Google Groups: http://groups.google.com/?hl=en

Frugal Living

Blog Archive

Sunday, December 7, 2008

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 24 new messages in 8 topics - digest

No comments: