Frugal Living: misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 10 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: DTV converters
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/e46bdc878c0fe848?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 18 2009 11:56 pm
From: "Jon von Leipzig@mayday.com"

On Feb 12, 4:29 pm, Gordon <go...@alltomyself.com> wrote:
> Jeff <dont_bug...@all.uk> wrote in news:DaCdnaBBCsUQ-
> w_UnZ2dnUVZ_gOWn...@earthlink.com:
>
> > Just got my DTV converter coupons and am search of a converter.
>
> > Who has one they like?
>
> > I'm going to try the Channel Master CM7000, but I have another coupon
> > to spend.
>
> > I see that there are some that perform well, but don't hold up well
> > from the customer reviews. The dish network TR40 is one.
>
> > How about the RCA?
>
> > Jeff
>
> I went to Radio Shack and got the one they sell. The same
> unit is available under a different name at Best Buy.
> It cost about $20.00 over the coupon price. But it works
> great. I use the composite video outputs, not the RF.
>
> You are going to need a decent antenna as well. I am getting
> but with two bowties arranged a dual dipole.

Sounds like the one I got at RS. Just installed it, using the old
rabbit ears. Works great. Much improved pic, about double the number
of channels. Not much worth watching, tho. If it weren't for my
religion, (football) I probably wouldn't even own a TV.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 5:09 am
From: "John A. Weeks III"

In article
<e161c684-3673-4d06-962d-2f74644c1940@s20g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
"Jon von Leipzig@mayday.com" <JonLeipzig@myway.com> wrote:

> Sounds like the one I got at RS. Just installed it, using the old
> rabbit ears. Works great. Much improved pic, about double the number
> of channels. Not much worth watching, tho. If it weren't for my
> religion, (football) I probably wouldn't even own a TV.

If you are a football fan, which you write that you are, that is
reason enough to get HD TV. Football in HD is a whole different
game. Things that are fuzzy in SD are crystal clear in HD, such
as the names on the uniforms and the ball flying through the
air. Instant replay suddenly becomes much more clear, and the
wide screen allows more of the play to be in the picture. If
you see football once in HD, you will never go back.

-john-

--
======================================================================
John A. Weeks III 612-720-2854 john@johnweeks.com
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
======================================================================

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Beat a Foreclosure,?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/6b1232feef201bad?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 12:35 am
From: asiandollno1@gmail.com

Steps On How To Beat Foreclosure On A Home

1. If you're going to have trouble meeting your mortgage payment, call
your mortgage lender immediately. Swift action may prevent the loss of
your home.
2. Mortgage lenders will always want to work with you and help you
find a way to keep your home. That's because they're in the money
lending business not the real estate business.
3. If your mortgage lender has not had a payment from you for a month
or two, and if they haven't heard from you, they will assume you do
not intend to pay them. In that case they will feel justified in
trying to take back your house.
4. If you are in serious financial difficulty, you should seek
professional assistance and/or legal counsel to best protect your
investment and your home.
5. Before you call your lender, be ready to discuss your financial
problems. They will need all the information you can give them in
order to help you.
6. Make notes about your income and outgoings so you will be better
able to answer questions. It will impress the lender if you seem to be
making a sincere attempt to tell the truth about your situation and
get your finances under control.
7. There are a number of ways in which your lender may be able to
help. If you get in touch with a lender before you miss a payment, the
lender might offer forbearance. This means they would put the soon-to-
be-missed payment at the back of the loan, allowing you to skip a
month and not getting a mortgage late on your credit. This is why you
need to contact your lender if you've lost a job or had some other
short-term setback. In fact, your lender may allow you to skip several
payments and give you time to get back on your feet.
8. Ask your lender about restructuring your loan. Since the lender
knows that mortgage payments are the last payments a person will let
slide they already realize you are probably having a few other
financial problems.
9. If you have some equity in your home, a lender may allow you to
restructure your loan to lower the monthly payments. If you've missed
some payments they may even agree to add the past amount due into the
new loan.
10. Ask your lender about helping you get a one-time payment from the
government's FHA-Insurance Fund to bring your mortgage current. You
may qualify if your loan is at least 4 months delinquent, but no more
than 12, and you are able to begin making full mortgage payments.
11. If your problem is so serious that it can't be resolved in a
reasonable amount of time, it may be better for you to sell your home
and find one with more manageable payments. In that case, sell the
home, pay off both the mortgage balance and your delinquent debt, and
avoid foreclosure.
12. If you can't sell your home it may be possible to sign it over to
a lender. This is considered a voluntary foreclosure and could damage
your credit record. You will lose your home, but you will not be held
liable if the home sells below the debt amount.
13. The last resort, when all other options fail, is to declare
bankruptcy, since foreclosure proceedings are usually stopped until a
bankruptcy is resolved. This may save your home although it will
damage your credit record for at least 7 years and you will lose
control of your finances.

AsianDoll

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== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 12:45 am
From: "Malcolm \"Mal\" Reynolds"

"John A. Weeks III" <john@johnweeks.com> wrote in news:john-
A4DB2C.18235918022009@news-3.octanews.net:

> In article
> <georgewkspam-86BC38.15282318022009@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
> Devo <georgewkspam@humboldt1.com> wrote:
>
>> Home owners try this new strategy .
>> Persuade a judge to compel production of hard to find or nonexistent
>> mortgage document can at the very least delay foreclosure, buying the
>> homeowner some time and turning up the pressure on the lender to
>> renegotiate the mortgage.
>> ask the lender. "Show me the Note"
>
> Isn't the note recorded with the county in your area? Here in
> MN, it would take just minutes at the courthouse to produce
> that document. And if the mortgage company gets a deficiency
> judgement against you, you end up paying the legal costs for
> this bonehead move.
>
> -john-
>

The mortgage companies sold the notes which got diced and sliced. It was
very easy for original documents to be lost/misplaced and some judges will
go along with only the "original"

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 8:30 am
From: Brian Elfert

asiandollno1@gmail.com writes:

>11. If your problem is so serious that it can=92t be resolved in a
>reasonable amount of time, it may be better for you to sell your home
>and find one with more manageable payments. In that case, sell the
>home, pay off both the mortgage balance and your delinquent debt, and
>avoid foreclosure.

To do this the lender would have to accept a short sale in many cases. A
lot of martgages are more than the house is worth at this point in today's
market.

A quick sale these days would probably require a hefty discount making the
mortgage even more of a loss for the bank.

Brian Elfert

==============================================================================
TOPIC: It's all falling apart, isn't it?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/aaee75672b67549f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 12:35 am
From: Trader100

On Feb 15, 5:27 am, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
> Such things as expressing a controversial opininion are now frowned on
> or outright illegal... we have bred more than an incompetent class...
> we have bred a class of people that will never know victor

I agree and this is the result of Tautological thinking as I explained
on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_(rhetoric) the core of
which I wrote. They censored about 20% but the essence is still there.
For the full uncensored article see http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/TauTology

Our minds and thinking have become tautological starting with
Aristotle, to James Hutton, Matthews, Wallace and finally Darwin who
plagiarized their ideas.

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 4:40 am
From: Dan

on 2/19/09 2:35 AM Trader100 said the following:
> On Feb 15, 5:27 am, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
>> Such things as expressing a controversial opininion are now frowned on
>> or outright illegal... we have bred more than an incompetent class...
>> we have bred a class of people that will never know victor
>
> I agree and this is the result of Tautological thinking as I explained
> on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_(rhetoric) the core of
> which I wrote. They censored about 20% but the essence is still there.
> For the full uncensored article see http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/TauTology
>
> Our minds and thinking have become tautological starting with
> Aristotle, to James Hutton, Matthews, Wallace and finally Darwin who
> plagiarized their ideas.

Just look at medical research. Associations and Tautologies galore!
But rarely Causation.

Mark my words: The USA GDP will contract >= 5% in 2009. Mark them!
Life is not aF(x) = F(ax)! The politicians are sending the USA economy
and the world's (via crony banking system) into a non-linear tailspin of
unnecessary destruction.

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 5:11 am
From: "John A. Weeks III"

In article
<5d828586-96a3-4baf-b7f8-11b55f05b259@j38g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
Trader100 <StephanusR@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Feb 15, 5:27 am, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
> > Such things as expressing a controversial opininion are now frowned on
> > or outright illegal... we have bred more than an incompetent class...
> > we have bred a class of people that will never know victor
>
> I agree and this is the result of Tautological thinking as I explained
> on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_(rhetoric) the core of
> which I wrote. They censored about 20% but the essence is still there.
> For the full uncensored article see http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/TauTology

There is a huge difference between expressing a controversial opinion
and saying something stupid or inflammatory. If you post something
kooky, expect to be treated like a kook.

-john-

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 7:10 am
From: -=DirtBag©

John A. Weeks III wrote:
> In article
> <5d828586-96a3-4baf-b7f8-11b55f05b259@j38g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
> Trader100 <StephanusR@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Feb 15, 5:27 am, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
>>> Such things as expressing a controversial opininion are now frowned on
>>> or outright illegal... we have bred more than an incompetent class...
>>> we have bred a class of people that will never know victor
>> I agree and this is the result of Tautological thinking as I explained
>> on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_(rhetoric) the core of
>> which I wrote. They censored about 20% but the essence is still there.
>> For the full uncensored article see http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/TauTology
>
> There is a huge difference between expressing a controversial opinion
> and saying something stupid or inflammatory. If you post something
> kooky, expect to be treated like a kook.
>
> -john-
>

That was some pretty dry reading Mr. Weeks. TauTological thinking is
one dry subject... Can we argue instead? <s>

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 9:51 am
From: Cindy Hamilton

On Feb 18, 8:50 pm, Harold Burton <hal.i.bur...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article
> <8822ef0e-ed15-44b2-bffc-2198990c2...@m2g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>,
> Cindy Hamilton <angelicapagane...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 17, 9:46 pm, Harold Burton <hal.i.bur...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Right, before DemocRAT Johnson changed the rules. Bet the
> > > Obama-lama-ding-dong appreciates that.
>
> > You undermine the validity of your position by resorting to junior-
> > high insults.
>
> Which makes me different for all the lefturds posting, how?

Does this rhetorical question mean that you don't care about
being different from the "lefturds"? I should imagine that
you would want to distinguish yourself from them as much
as possible.

> I notice you chose to dodge the question. Good idea.

I saw no question in your post, only assertions. I am
relatively indifferent to the political machinations that
result in underestimation of unemployment figures.

Politicians lie, regardless of which way they lean. It
is fruitless to point fingers in one direction when lies
emanation from all quarters.

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 9:56 am
From: -=DirtBag©

Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> On Feb 18, 8:50 pm, Harold Burton <hal.i.bur...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> In article
>> <8822ef0e-ed15-44b2-bffc-2198990c2...@m2g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>,
>> Cindy Hamilton <angelicapagane...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Feb 17, 9:46 pm, Harold Burton <hal.i.bur...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Right, before DemocRAT Johnson changed the rules. Bet the
>>>> Obama-lama-ding-dong appreciates that.
>>> You undermine the validity of your position by resorting to junior-
>>> high insults.
>> Which makes me different for all the lefturds posting, how?
>
> Does this rhetorical question mean that you don't care about
> being different from the "lefturds"? I should imagine that
> you would want to distinguish yourself from them as much
> as possible.
>
>> I notice you chose to dodge the question. Good idea.
>
> I saw no question in your post, only assertions. I am
> relatively indifferent to the political machinations that
> result in underestimation of unemployment figures.
>
> Politicians lie, regardless of which way they lean. It
> is fruitless to point fingers in one direction when lies
> emanation from all quarters.

Yea they are just a lying bunch of liars.

I have suggesting each election to vote out ALL incumbents for years
now. How are you voting?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: (WWW.STYLISHDUDES.COM)nike shoes:$32,handbag:$35,NFL:$20,jean:$30,UGG
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/7187b39c62964ba5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Mixing CFLs
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/3585b15c24a653c0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 7:01 am
From: Evelyn Leeper

Gordon wrote:
> Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote in
> news:O8Odna7r3rdY0gHUnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@posted.visi:
>
>> But do note that CFLs may not be a good choice for some enclosed or
>> recessed fixtures. They don't make anywhere near as much heat as an
>> incandescent, but they're very much more sensitive to heat.
>
> My experience in shopping for CFLs recently has been that they
> don't recomend them for use in enclosed fixtures. I didn't
> see that warning on the package, but it was printed on the
> ballast of the bulb in the package. I finnaly found a pair
> of bulbs that didn't have the warning and were garenteed
> to fire up at low temps. Since I was placing them in an
> enclosed outdoor fixture...

We've been using them in enclosed fixtures for quite a while (if that
includes ceiling globes). Those were the first to be changed over,
because having to change the bulbs frequently is a nuisance, and putting
in CFLs meant not having to do that.

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
Nobody believes the official spokesman ... but everybody
trusts an unidentified source. -Ron Nesen, 1977

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 7:18 am
From: "h"

"Evelyn Leeper" <eleeper@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:499d7440$0$20298$607ed4bc@cv.net...
> Gordon wrote:
>> Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote in
>> news:O8Odna7r3rdY0gHUnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@posted.visi:
>>
>>> But do note that CFLs may not be a good choice for some enclosed or
>>> recessed fixtures. They don't make anywhere near as much heat as an
>>> incandescent, but they're very much more sensitive to heat.
>>
>> My experience in shopping for CFLs recently has been that they
>> don't recomend them for use in enclosed fixtures. I didn't see that
>> warning on the package, but it was printed on the
>> ballast of the bulb in the package. I finnaly found a pair
>> of bulbs that didn't have the warning and were garenteed to fire up at
>> low temps. Since I was placing them in an
>> enclosed outdoor fixture...
>
> We've been using them in enclosed fixtures for quite a while (if that
> includes ceiling globes). Those were the first to be changed over,
> because having to change the bulbs frequently is a nuisance, and putting
> in CFLs meant not having to do that.
>

Agreed. Most of my lights are in enclosed fixtures (track, recessed, or
globe) and all my bulbs are CFLs. Never had any problems.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 8:18 am
From: "JR Weiss"

> But do note that CFLs may not be a good choice for some enclosed or
> recessed fixtures. They don't make anywhere near as much heat as an
> incandescent, but they're very much more sensitive to heat.

I had a couple early CFL floods in the recessed fixtures in my kitchen
ceiling. When I took one out to clean, I noticed the tube was no longer
firmly attached to the base. The second one was the same. I replaced them
with newer versions, and have no problems with them.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: HEY GROUPIES, THIS IS A MUST READ!!! THANK ME LATER!!! THIS IS NOT SPAM!
!!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/f4cc1145fc911440?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 7:58 am
From: ProudMomOf2Girls

Hi Groupies:

I'm a newbie and I wanted to share something that was sent to me
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of the best programs I've seen in a LONG time... I was very impressed!
Just make sure you go check it out... Watch all the videos on this
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http://www.MillionaireMaverickCoaching.com

Has anyone else in this group tried this program?

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== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 8:17 am
From: albundy2@mailinator.com

On Feb 19, 10:58 am, ProudMomOf2Girls <blessed.lady.of.
2.gi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Groupies:
>
> I'm a newbie and I wanted to share something that was sent to me
> recently. I was curious so I checked it out. Honestly, this is one
> of the best programs I've seen in a LONG time... I was very impressed!
> Just make sure you go check it out... Watch all the videos on this
> page right away! It even shows you how to make over $11,000 per month
> using a proven step-by-step system that is guaranteed, starting today.
> You will be blown away, too! Are you sick & tired of making just
> enough money to survive? I know that I am!!!! Check it out for
> yourself!
>
>
>
> Has anyone else in this group tried this program?
>
> Please, let me know what you think. I'm a disabled stay-at-home Mom
> and I could use some extra funds to make life better for my 2 girls.

You can repackage crap any way you want and it still stinks.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: thrift finds
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/3197a4fb4f662174?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 8:26 am
From: Derald

invalid@invalid.com wrote:

>They still make them.
Perhaps, but at those prices they can keep them as long as the real
things show up from time to time in thrift stores and yard sales.
Besides being pricey, the only model that really interests me, with no
numeric keypad, is "no longer available".

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 8:26 am
From: Derald

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>tmclone@searchmachine.com wrote:
>> What's up with actually LIKING, and WANTING
>> your keyboard to make noise? The rest of us just wanted to work in
>> silence. I'm so glad I don't have to listen to that crap now that I'm
>> self-employed and working at home.
>
>You're just pissed because it used to be easy for the boss to tell who was
>working and who wasn't!
Nah, (s)he just doesn't get it: It ain't about the sound; it's
about the "feel".

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 11:32 am
From: josejarvie@ssnet.net

On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 11:26:22 -0500, in misc.consumers.frugal-living Derald <derald@invalid.net> wrote:

>The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>tmclone@searchmachine.com wrote:
>>> What's up with actually LIKING, and WANTING
>>> your keyboard to make noise? The rest of us just wanted to work in
>>> silence. I'm so glad I don't have to listen to that crap now that I'm
>>> self-employed and working at home.
>>
>>You're just pissed because it used to be easy for the boss to tell who was
>>working and who wasn't!
> Nah, (s)he just doesn't get it: It ain't about the sound; it's
>about the "feel".

They hurt my wrists.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: America is doomed without industrial restoration
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/3ac833194943bee0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 10:00 am
From: Bama Brian

Rod Speed wrote:
> Bama Brian wrote:
>> zzbunker wrote:
>>> On Feb 17, 12:00 pm, Bama Brian <bamaNOTbr...@att.net> wrote:
>>>> zzbunkerwrote:
>>>>> On Feb 15, 9:10 pm, Aviroce <dudaras...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Four years ago or more, I wrote an article on open Yahoo forum
>>>>>> which Yahoo adapted to their file for publication. That article
>>>>>> deals with what America has been known for and that coincides
>>>>>> with some of your statements.
>>>>>> 'The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and allow US
>>>>>> workers - and only US workers - the ability to make this country
>>>>>> into a powerhouse again "
>>>>>> As for your,
>>>>>> "This morning I was reading Sen. Leathy's comments supporting
>>>>>> immigration "reform". The old degenerate wants more immigrants! "
>>>>>> the Army announced plans to induct even temporary visa-ed Mexicans
>>>>>> into the Army to fill their quota. Needless to say, the military
>>>>>> complex had inducted over 88,000 illegal migrants into the Army,
>>>>>> Marines, and Navy and facilitated their USA citizenships while on
>>>>>> service of duty. Now they are openning the avenue for further
>>>>>> recruits.
>>>>>> Keep in mind these desparate Mexicans to make a living are
>>>>>> "Slaves by Choice." It is undfortunate. Even the Dollar Tree
>>>>>> stores use Mexicans for their dedicated labor for less. Rainbow
>>>>>> clothing use these Mexicans even in store management. When you
>>>>>> pay an employee twelve thousand dollars for work worth sixty
>>>>>> thousand dollars, then you got some choice to make.
>>>>>> What some of these businesses are forgetting about that American
>>>>>> labor is willing to go down in their wages just to land a job. I
>>>>>> use a handyman for $50 a day to fix my homes from sheet rock to
>>>>>> roofing to electrical work to heating and air conditionning. All
>>>>>> workers are Americans, black and white. No illegal aliens. That
>>>>>> would be un- American. Having said that I get offended to find
>>>>>> an illegal alien manning a Dollar Tree oe Rainbow stores while
>>>>>> native Americans are under his/her command. Are Americans being
>>>>>> colonized?
>>>>> Of, course. Since that's the only thing any of those convenience
>>>>> stores use for either electric help or anything else anymore.
>>>>> Which is also why amymore the real engineers mostly build
>>>>> Optical Computers, HDTV, Holograms, On-Line Banking,
>>>>> On-Line Publishing, Post Ford Batteries, Adaptive A.I.
>>>>> Fiber Optics, Pv Cell Energy, Post AT&T Phonics,
>>>>> and Post GM Robotics.
>>>> The "real" engineers watch their designs being sent offshore for
>>>> build. They then watch as the offshore factory engineers blatantly
>>>> copy their design and flood the market with cheaper copies.
>>>>
>>>> Even IBM sold their computer hardware market directly to a Chinese
>>>> company.
>>> Well, that was predestimed. Since it became obvious, quickly
>>> after the AT&T breakup, that the only thing iBM knew about
>>> computers was AT&T.
>>> Which is also the people who knew about computer-engineering
>>> jobs worked on Optical Computers, HDTV, Robotics,
>>> and Laser Disks that aren't owned by G.M.
>> Here's a partial list of things no longer made in the US:
>>
>> Consumer goods: CD's, DVD's, CD/DVD players, laptops, desktops, hard
>> disk drives, DRAM, ROM, Flash RAM, TV's, HDTV's, Plasma TV's, LCD
>> TV's, Digital cameras, film cameras, computer games, telephones, cell
>> phones, watches, bicycles, motorcycles - except for perhaps half of
>> Harley's, iPOds, and so on.
>>
>> Food products: Half of all produce is now grown offshore. Much
>> canning is done in China, where it is physically cheaper to ship the
>> produce and have it canned.
>>
>> Clothing: Virtually all dresses, jeans, pants, underwear, coats,
>> shirts, socks and shoes.
>>
>> Ocean going vessels: 1% made in the US - and those are for the US
>> Navy.
>> Aircraft: Approximately 40% of commercial aircraft are built in the
>> US.
>> Guns: Half of all guns and ammo are manufactured offshore.
>> Manufacturers such as Taurus, H&K, Glock, Browning, and Steyr, lead in
>> innovation.
>>
>> Cars: An estimated sixty percent of the components of so-called
>> American cars are built offshore. The number is higher for the
>> foreign manufacturers.
>>
>> Toys: Virtually all toys are manufactured offshore.
>>
>> Robotics: There are an estimated 186,000 robots in use in the US.
>> World-wide there are over a million in use, with Japan being the
>> number one manufacturer and user. Even South Korea plans a robotic
>> theme park, estimated to cost over $1 billion. By contrast, the
>> entire US output in 2008 is estimated at only $860 million.
>
>> My point is really simple.
>
> Naively simplistic, actually.
>
>> If we don't start bringing manufacturing back on-shore,
>
> Taint gunna happen. No one is stupid enough to do it where its much more expensive.

And you have identified the problem. Whether it is Congress, or the
unions, or the cost of labor, it all adds up to a lot of unemployed
Americans.

>
>> we'll all be happy just to be eating.
>
> Mindlessly silly. Modern first world economys are about a hell of a lot more than just manufacturing.

Such as what? Don't need as many accountants when there are no
factories. Don't need so many IT types for the same reason. Engineers
are having a hell of a bad time finding work these days. Even technical
work, such as design, analysis, and programming is offshored these days.
Unemployment continues to rise in a linear fashion and is now higher
than it has been in decades.

I pity those who muddled thru high school and thought the world owed
them a living; there are only so many burger flipper jobs.

Maybe we could all get degrees in finance and teach each other about
investments...

--
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana, 1863 - 1952

Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 11:48 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Bama Brian wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Bama Brian wrote
>>> zzbunker wrote
>>>> Bama Brian <bamaNOTbr...@att.net> wrote
>>>>> zzbunkerwrote
>>>>>> Aviroce <dudaras...@gmail.com> wrote

>>>>>>> Four years ago or more, I wrote an article on open Yahoo forum
>>>>>>> which Yahoo adapted to their file for publication. That article
>>>>>>> deals with what America has been known for and that coincides
>>>>>>> with some of your statements.

>>>>>>> 'The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and allow US
>>>>>>> workers - and only US workers - the ability to make this country
>>>>>>> into a powerhouse again "

>>>>>>> As for your,
>>>>>>> "This morning I was reading Sen. Leathy's comments supporting
>>>>>>> immigration "reform". The old degenerate wants more immigrants!
>>>>>>> " the Army announced plans to induct even temporary visa-ed
>>>>>>> Mexicans into the Army to fill their quota. Needless to say,
>>>>>>> the military complex had inducted over 88,000 illegal migrants
>>>>>>> into the Army, Marines, and Navy and facilitated their USA
>>>>>>> citizenships while on service of duty. Now they are openning
>>>>>>> the avenue for further recruits.

>>>>>>> Keep in mind these desparate Mexicans to make a living are
>>>>>>> "Slaves by Choice." It is undfortunate. Even the Dollar Tree
>>>>>>> stores use Mexicans for their dedicated labor for less. Rainbow
>>>>>>> clothing use these Mexicans even in store management. When you
>>>>>>> pay an employee twelve thousand dollars for work worth sixty
>>>>>>> thousand dollars, then you got some choice to make.
>>>>>>> What some of these businesses are forgetting about that American
>>>>>>> labor is willing to go down in their wages just to land a job. I use a handyman for $50 a day to fix my homes
>>>>>>> from sheet rock
>>>>>>> to roofing to electrical work to heating and air conditionning.
>>>>>>> All workers are Americans, black and white. No illegal aliens.
>>>>>>> That would be un- American. Having said that I get offended to
>>>>>>> find an illegal alien manning a Dollar Tree oe Rainbow stores
>>>>>>> while native Americans are under his/her command. Are
>>>>>>> Americans being colonized?

>>>>>> Of, course. Since that's the only thing any of those
>>>>>> convenience stores use for either electric help or anything
>>>>>> else anymore. Which is also why amymore the real engineers
>>>>>> mostly build Optical Computers, HDTV, Holograms, On-Line
>>>>>> Banking, On-Line Publishing, Post Ford Batteries, Adaptive
>>>>>> A.I. Fiber Optics, Pv Cell Energy, Post AT&T Phonics,
>>>>>> and Post GM Robotics.

>>>>> The "real" engineers watch their designs being sent offshore for
>>>>> build. They then watch as the offshore factory engineers blatantly
>>>>> copy their design and flood the market with cheaper copies.

>>>>> Even IBM sold their computer hardware market directly to a Chinese company.

>>>> Well, that was predestimed. Since it became obvious, quickly
>>>> after the AT&T breakup, that the only thing iBM knew about
>>>> computers was AT&T.
>>>> Which is also the people who knew about computer-engineering
>>>> jobs worked on Optical Computers, HDTV, Robotics,
>>>> and Laser Disks that aren't owned by G.M.

>>> Here's a partial list of things no longer made in the US:

>>> Consumer goods: CD's, DVD's, CD/DVD players, laptops, desktops,
>>> hard disk drives, DRAM, ROM, Flash RAM, TV's, HDTV's, Plasma TV's,
>>> LCD TV's, Digital cameras, film cameras, computer games,
>>> telephones, cell phones, watches, bicycles, motorcycles - except
>>> for perhaps half of Harley's, iPOds, and so on.

>>> Food products: Half of all produce is now grown offshore. Much canning is done in China, where it is physically
>>> cheaper to ship the produce and have it canned.

>>> Clothing: Virtually all dresses, jeans, pants, underwear, coats,
>>> shirts, socks and shoes.

>>> Ocean going vessels: 1% made in the US - and those are for the US Navy.
>>> Aircraft: Approximately 40% of commercial aircraft are built in the US.
>>> Guns: Half of all guns and ammo are manufactured offshore.
>>> Manufacturers such as Taurus, H&K, Glock, Browning, and Steyr, lead
>>> in innovation.

>>> Cars: An estimated sixty percent of the components of so-called
>>> American cars are built offshore. The number is higher for the
>>> foreign manufacturers.

>>> Toys: Virtually all toys are manufactured offshore.

>>> Robotics: There are an estimated 186,000 robots in use in the US.
>>> World-wide there are over a million in use, with Japan being the
>>> number one manufacturer and user. Even South Korea plans a robotic
>>> theme park, estimated to cost over $1 billion. By contrast, the
>>> entire US output in 2008 is estimated at only $860 million.

>>> My point is really simple.

>> Naively simplistic, actually.

>>> If we don't start bringing manufacturing back on-shore,

>> Taint gunna happen. No one is stupid enough to do it where its much more expensive.

> And you have identified the problem.

And you howling about that aint gunna change that fundamental.

> Whether it is Congress, or the unions, or the cost of labor, it all adds up to a lot of unemployed Americans.

No it doesnt. The unemployment rate bottomed at 4.x%, with an immense legal
and illegal immigration rates, with the participation rate at an all time high.

>>> we'll all be happy just to be eating.

>> Mindlessly silly. Modern first world economys are about a hell of a lot more than just manufacturing.

> Such as what?

Oh, just a few tiny details like medical services, roads,
houses, infrastructure, the net, ebay, entertainment,
sports, food service, retail operations, etc etc etc.

> Don't need as many accountants when there are no factories.

Mindlessly silly. Accountants do a hell of a lot more
than just factorys in modern first world countrys.

> Don't need so many IT types for the same reason.

Mindlessly silly. IT types do a hell of a lot more
than just factorys in modern first world countrys.

> Engineers are having a hell of a bad time finding work these days.

Pig ignorant lie. In spades now that Obummer is spending so much in infrastructure rebuilding.

> Even technical work, such as design, analysis, and programming is offshored these days.

Some of it is, plenty of it isnt.

> Unemployment continues to rise in a linear fashion

Pig ignorant lie.

> and is now higher than it has been in decades.

Thats what recessions do.

> I pity those who muddled thru high school and thought the world owed them a living; there are only so many burger
> flipper jobs.

There's a hell of a lot more than just burger flipping and factory work in any modern first world economy.

> Maybe we could all get degrees in finance and teach each other about investments...

Makes a hell of a lot more sense to get qualified in medicine instead.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Anybody here use Pingo?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/a96237018c4d52aa?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 11:27 am
From: OhioGuy

I listen to Clark Howard's radio show occasionally, and a few months
ago I heard him talk about a company called Pingo, that evidently offers
a good deal on long distance telephone service.

I signed up to test it for a month, and once I was satisfied, we
dumped our old calling card and started to use this for all of our long
distance. (1.8 cents a minute through a local access #, 2.8 cents a
minute using their toll free access number) We are here in Ohio, and
90%+ of the people I call are in Ohio.

Everything worked fine over the last couple of months, until this
past week. Suddenly, calls to the 440 area code won't complete. They
technically go through - the phone at the numbers we call rings - but
neither we or the party we are calling can hear anything at all. In
fact, on this end we don't even hear the ringing happening on the line.
We have called people, and they just assume it is a prank call, with
no one there.

I contacted Pingo, and this was their reply:

>Thank you for contacting Pingo. Unfortunately "Pingo is not intended
>for intrastate dialing in the U.S". For example if you are in Florida
>you can not complete calls, using Pingo, to call Florida.

This is a bunch of bull, because everyone else I've been calling is
here in Ohio, just as we are. Just in the past couple of days I've
successfully placed calls to the 419, 614 and 216 area codes - all in
Ohio. (we are in the 513 area code)

This is a really big issue, because my wife is due to deliver our
third child any day now, and she can't call her parents and other
immediate relatives. (most of whom live in the 440 area code) This
area code previously worked fine before when we tried it using Pingo,
and now they are telling us that it isn't working because it isn't
supposed to. I think I'm going to have to get some sort of backup
calling card she can use until this is straightened out. It's bizarre
to be put into a situation where I can call all of my friends and
relatives, but she can no longer call hers.

Has anyone else suddenly found Pingo not to work for Intrastate calls
that had worked previously?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT - Survivalism Retail Style
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/da641b3711ca2726?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 1:41 pm
From: Strabo

dcaster@krl.org wrote:
> On Feb 16, 3:56 am, Too_Many_Tools <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I have seen housing prices drop 60-80% in my lifetime...no reason why
>> it can't do that again.
>
> Just when did you see housing prices drop 60-80%? I sure do not
> remember anything close to that happening.
>

Unless he went through the 1930s, he probably means 60%-80% increase.
What goes up will come down.

>
>> I also point out that the baby boomers are retiring...and need their
>> home equity to survive retirement.
>
> Why do baby boomers need their house equity to survive retirement? I
> am retired and do not need my house equity to survive. I just need to
> keep my house so I have a place to live. If the value of my house
> went down to zero, it would make no difference in my income.
>
> Dan
>

That's a good position.

The next concern is those who will attempt to remove you from your
home and take your stuff.

1. Government health/safety/taxing agencies.

2. Urban mutants.

3. Illegal alien incursion.

Tip: After age 60, avoid going into a hospital or FEMA camp.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 2:05 pm
From: Strabo

Ed Huntress wrote:
> "Strabo" <strabo@flashlight.net> wrote in message
> news:FCUll.10686$lk5.9712@newsfe13.iad...
>> Ed Huntress wrote:
>>> "Winston_Smith" <not_real@bogus.net> wrote in message
>>> news:brffp4tp2cnmgvp0d5sfvk713gdte1re5j@4ax.com...
>>>> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> <EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:gk2ntk$ih9$2@reader1.panix.com...
>>>>>> In misc.survivalism Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudgeon@live.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wonder if it's possible to simultaneously suffer both deflation and
>>>>>>> inflation?
>>>>>> Winston says Yes.
>>>>> Winston be wrong. You can have inflation and a contracting economy
>>>>> (stagflation), or deflation and a contracting economy (recession), but
>>>>> you
>>>>> can't have aggregate inflation and aggregate deflation at the same
>>>>> time.
>>>> You can have inflation in one area and deflation in another. Esk
>>>> can't understand that.
>>>>
>>>> I'll bet your stocks and the value of your house is deflating.
>>>> I'll bet your grocery bill is inflating.
>>> That's why it's best to confine the terms "inflation" and "deflation" to
>>> aggregate, economy-wide effects. It just confuses the issues to mix those
>>> aggregate rises and declines that are related to money-supply or
>>> currency-value issues, or to GDP growth or shrinkage, with the price
>>> increases and declines that occur in different sectors. The latter are
>>> supply/demand issues, even if the demand is purely speculative.
>>>
>> But there is no "aggregate, economy-wide effects".
>
> Yes there are, and you can measure them with a variety of summary measures,
> ranging from GDP growth rates to currency exchange rates.
>

Those are quantitative measurements designed as predictive tools
but with no relevance to the individual.

One lives locally. That's his real world.

>
>> Different parts
>> act in different ways during the same time frame.
>
> Of course. But inflation and deflation are measures of how they're connected
> in a mutually reinforcing way. Employment rates and consumption rates, for
> example. Some sectors are always countercyclical. There are people who make
> their livings picking out which sectors those will be.
>
> But on a macro scale, it matters whether you have aggregate inflation or
> deflation. Once one takes hold in a big way it influences practically every
> sector. And once one or the other is dominant, most sectors start feeding on
> the spiral and forcing it all in the same direction. That's why aggregate
> effects are the key issue: they often dominate the whole economy. Rarely
> does one sector swing an economy around all by itself. People keep trying to
> pin the current situation on a single sector -- housing speculation, or
> financial derivatives -- but it's not that simple. One sector may act as a
> trigger but it's the aggregate consequences that matter.
>
>> Politicians want a
>> simple label to simplify spinning their BS. Same way with ideologies.
>> There is no 'left' or 'right' political spectrum. Either you have
>> rights and power or you do not. I hope the day of the politician is
>> over.
>
> I was with you up until the last sentence. d8-) For the latter, see
> Aristotle, _The Politics_.
>

Humans are thinking, interactive players whose self-interest is
always presumed paramount. Politicians on the other hand claim to
represent a collective bias, a known lie. Hence, the games begin.

Lawyers and politicians are unnecessary and dangerous.

>
>> For example, real estate will have to be priced lower to accommodate
>> fewer buyers and a weakened dollar. There are excepted areas but that
>> will be the tendency. Expect 1960s or earlier house prices within a few
>> years. But don't hold on to dollars expecting to later make a killing
>> because the purchasing power of the dollar will fall.
>>
>> In other words gentlemen, we're going back to ca 1957, and you won't
>> be able to take technocracy with you.
>
> The bottom in real estate is replacement value plus land value. Land value
> is very sensitive to the state of the economy, but even more sensitive to
> local supply and demand. Replacement value can get out of wack when there is
> lots of building going on, as there was until recently.
>
> But 1960s prices are far below even replacement value alone. I was selling
> Cape Cods in Lansing, Michigan for $18,000 in 1970, and "colonials" for
> $26,000. That's far below the materials costs plus minimum-wage labor today.
>

Replacement costs are subject to change. Underwriters use local
and regional cost analysis. As time goes on, only local labor
and material availability will matter.

I expect both my land and house valuation to fall as well as the
replacement cost for the house.

My per hour charges to clients will have to come down and I expect
I will pay less for labor.

Some items may become difficult to get and increase in cost.

The specifics of this trend should be clear by next fall.

>
> I'm not a betting man but I doubt if house prices will fall in most regions
> of the country by more than another 15%, or possibly 20% tops. That would be
> the "real" bottom, IMO. But the nationwide averages could drop more than
> that, because there are many overbuilt areas where there was lots of
> speculative building but there just aren't going to be any buyers at all,
> unless there is enough growth in local employment to make people able to
> live there again.
>
> BTW, house prices in my town are moving up slowly, but steadily, and only
> took a slight two-month dip in early 2007. This is an area that's fully
> built and what you're seeing is straight supply/demand effects in a mature
> market. There are plenty of such places around the country, but they're not
> the ones you hear about.
>

This is a minimum five year adjustment. How much longer depends on
government intervention. The fedgov could cause it to drag out for
many more years.

> --
> Ed Huntress
>
>

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Thursday, February 19, 2009

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 10 topics - digest

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