Frugal Living: misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 8 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: freight container housing, or cargo container experience?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/2f27ef50eb24e22e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 9 ==
Date: Sun, Oct 18 2009 9:46 am
From: Les Cargill

sr wrote:
> Yes, a friend of a friend use a train section for a diner, neat-
> and a friend used a school bus, I was never that interested, at the time, to
> ask
> constuction questions, wish I had. I imagine there will be need of weilding
> skills.
> That's costly, in itself. I need a book on the basics of converting
> shipping container
> into a home. Every step, every detail. Still searching.
>

I've seen ISBUs being prepped for bein' sent to the sandbox ( Iraq ).

I can't tell you anything directly, but this was interesting:

http://video.bobvila.com/m/21320565/converting-steel-shipping-containers-to-housing.htm

This means wielding a cuttin' torch... that's a lot of labor. They also
mentioned welding the floor joists between the two halves. That would
have to be done very carefully

The figure quoted was $45 a square foot. They have to use a
high-thermal-density ceramic coating on the outside ( because
of solar load in Florida ). If the containers comprise half the square
footage, that half of a 2k sq ft house is $45,000. Yowch. If
the rest is half that, then the whole thing costs $67,500 for
2k sq ft.

To be honest with you - I bet you can find a short sale or
repo quicker and cheaper than you can get this done. You're still
on the hook for trusses, interior and flooring. I don't remember
the exact ratio, but getting a concrete block shell in Florida was
pretty cheap when last I checked. People there are pretty hard up.

If you had a site that was appropriate for rammed earth,
had local materials on your land for the exterior parts that
show, these might be interesting - ignoring rust. But the value-add
is extensive.

And finally, if you just go hacking on these, you're likely
to compromise them. They're an engineered "exoskeleton" - the
skin is load-bearing. You can make mistakes if you don't know
the engineering.

What I could visualize is using these on a hillside site as part of a
cantilever structure, but ... that's way over my head engineeringwise.

> "Les Cargill" <lcargill99@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:hbdt84$f9o$2@news.eternal-september.org...
>> sr wrote:
>>> Anyone have experience with reconstructing freight or cargo container
>>> into green housing?
>>> Sandy in Maine
>> A friend once converted a boxcar into a shop building. Worked great. I
>> suppose you could make housing out of it...
>>
>> --
>> Les Cargill
>
>

--
Les Cargill

== 2 of 9 ==
Date: Sun, Oct 18 2009 9:53 am
From: "sr"

Ofcourse, Bobvile did a segiment , saw it online some time back. My
computer hasn't enough power to watch the demostration. Bummer. Can't watch
anything online, which would be a big help. One thing, I wouldn't be using
spray foam, discount panels are cheaper. $240 for a cord in Bangor, ME
thanks
"Les Cargill" <lcargill99@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:hbfgo1$3od$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> sr wrote:
>> Yes, a friend of a friend use a train section for a diner, neat-
>> and a friend used a school bus, I was never that interested, at the time,
>> to ask
>> constuction questions, wish I had. I imagine there will be need of
>> weilding skills.
>> That's costly, in itself. I need a book on the basics of converting
>> shipping container
>> into a home. Every step, every detail. Still searching.
>>
>
> I've seen ISBUs being prepped for bein' sent to the sandbox ( Iraq ).
>
> I can't tell you anything directly, but this was interesting:
>
> http://video.bobvila.com/m/21320565/converting-steel-shipping-containers-to-housing.htm
>
>
> This means wielding a cuttin' torch... that's a lot of labor. They also
> mentioned welding the floor joists between the two halves. That would
> have to be done very carefully
>
> The figure quoted was $45 a square foot. They have to use a
> high-thermal-density ceramic coating on the outside ( because
> of solar load in Florida ). If the containers comprise half the square
> footage, that half of a 2k sq ft house is $45,000. Yowch. If
> the rest is half that, then the whole thing costs $67,500 for
> 2k sq ft.
>
> To be honest with you - I bet you can find a short sale or
> repo quicker and cheaper than you can get this done. You're still
> on the hook for trusses, interior and flooring. I don't remember
> the exact ratio, but getting a concrete block shell in Florida was
> pretty cheap when last I checked. People there are pretty hard up.
>
> If you had a site that was appropriate for rammed earth,
> had local materials on your land for the exterior parts that
> show, these might be interesting - ignoring rust. But the value-add
> is extensive.
>
> And finally, if you just go hacking on these, you're likely
> to compromise them. They're an engineered "exoskeleton" - the
> skin is load-bearing. You can make mistakes if you don't know
> the engineering.
>
> What I could visualize is using these on a hillside site as part of a
> cantilever structure, but ... that's way over my head engineeringwise.
>
>> "Les Cargill" <lcargill99@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:hbdt84$f9o$2@news.eternal-september.org...
>>> sr wrote:
>>>> Anyone have experience with reconstructing freight or cargo container
>>>> into green housing?
>>>> Sandy in Maine
>>> A friend once converted a boxcar into a shop building. Worked great. I
>>> suppose you could make housing out of it...
>>>
>>> --
>>> Les Cargill
>>
>>
>
> --
> Les Cargill

== 3 of 9 ==
Date: Sun, Oct 18 2009 10:19 am
From: gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston)

In article <2576e$4adb4821$ccb58439$15574@ispn.net>,
sr <solos42@uninets.net> wrote:
>Ofcourse, Bobvile did a segiment , saw it online some time back. My
>computer hasn't enough power to watch the demostration. Bummer. Can't watch
>anything online, which would be a big help. One thing, I wouldn't be using
>spray foam, discount panels are cheaper. $240 for a cord in Bangor, ME
[ ... ]

Do you have Internet Cafes, or a public library with free access and
workstations, in your area? If you have a notebook with WiFi, a place
with WiFi access for the price of a cup of coffee can give you a high
bandwith link.

Gary

--
Gary Heston gheston@hiwaay.net http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/
"Where large, expensive pieces of exotic woods are converted to valueless,
hard to dispose of sawdust, chips and scraps." Charlie B.s' definition of
woodworking.

== 4 of 9 ==
Date: Sun, Oct 18 2009 10:37 am
From: "sr"

As a matter of fact, there is.
I'll check that out, as this site you gave, looks promising
"Gary Heston" <gheston@hiwaay.net> wrote in message
news:lNSdncoXW5W900bXnZ2dnUVZ_gGdnZ2d@posted.hiwaay2...
> In article <2576e$4adb4821$ccb58439$15574@ispn.net>,
> sr <solos42@uninets.net> wrote:
>>Ofcourse, Bobvile did a segiment , saw it online some time back. My
>>computer hasn't enough power to watch the demostration. Bummer. Can't
>>watch
>>anything online, which would be a big help. One thing, I wouldn't be
>>using
>>spray foam, discount panels are cheaper. $240 for a cord in Bangor, ME
> [ ... ]
>
> Do you have Internet Cafes, or a public library with free access and
> workstations, in your area? If you have a notebook with WiFi, a place
> with WiFi access for the price of a cup of coffee can give you a high
> bandwith link.
>
>
> Gary
>
> --
> Gary Heston gheston@hiwaay.net http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/
> "Where large, expensive pieces of exotic woods are converted to valueless,
> hard to dispose of sawdust, chips and scraps." Charlie B.s' definition of
> woodworking.

== 5 of 9 ==
Date: Sun, Oct 18 2009 10:41 am
From: Les Cargill

sr wrote:
> Ofcourse, Bobvile did a segiment , saw it online some time back. My
> computer hasn't enough power to watch the demostration. Bummer. Can't watch
> anything online, which would be a big help. One thing, I wouldn't be using
> spray foam, discount panels are cheaper. $240 for a cord in Bangor, ME
> thanks

If there's some way you can get to that video, I would before
spending dime one. Ask at your public library.

IMO ( just IMO, mind you ), it's a bust,
especially in a down builder's market. But it depends on what
you have in mind. $45 a square foot, he says.

The opening of the box is too narrow for much beyond storage, and
the cost of widening it is very high. But again, if you had
the right site, and the right skills... you'd be better off
working for money and not doing this :)

--
Les Cargil

== 6 of 9 ==
Date: Sun, Oct 18 2009 10:47 am
From: "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds"

In article
<lNSdncoXW5W900bXnZ2dnUVZ_gGdnZ2d@posted
.hiwaay2>,
gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston)
wrote:

> In article <2576e$4adb4821$ccb58439$15574@ispn.net>,
> sr <solos42@uninets.net> wrote:
> >Ofcourse, Bobvile did a segiment , saw it online some time back. My
> >computer hasn't enough power to watch the demostration. Bummer. Can't watch
> >anything online, which would be a big help. One thing, I wouldn't be using
> >spray foam, discount panels are cheaper. $240 for a cord in Bangor, ME
> [ ... ]
>
> Do you have Internet Cafes, or a public library with free access and
> workstations, in your area? If you have a notebook with WiFi, a place
> with WiFi access for the price of a cup of coffee can give you a high
> bandwith link.
>
>
> Gary

And there are always libraries...which
might have DVDs of his shows

== 7 of 9 ==
Date: Sun, Oct 18 2009 11:20 am
From: "Rod Speed"

sr wrote:

> Ofcourse, Bobvile did a segiment , saw it online some time back. My computer hasn't enough power to watch the
> demostration. Bummer. Can't watch anything online, which would be a big help.

There are downloaders for situations like that.

> One thing, I wouldn't be using spray foam, discount panels are cheaper. $240 for a cord in Bangor, ME thanks

> "Les Cargill" <lcargill99@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:hbfgo1$3od$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>> sr wrote:
>>> Yes, a friend of a friend use a train section for a diner, neat-
>>> and a friend used a school bus, I was never that interested, at the
>>> time, to ask
>>> constuction questions, wish I had. I imagine there will be need of
>>> weilding skills.
>>> That's costly, in itself. I need a book on the basics of converting
>>> shipping container
>>> into a home. Every step, every detail. Still searching.
>>>
>>
>> I've seen ISBUs being prepped for bein' sent to the sandbox ( Iraq ).
>>
>> I can't tell you anything directly, but this was interesting:
>>
>> http://video.bobvila.com/m/21320565/converting-steel-shipping-containers-to-housing.htm
>>
>>
>> This means wielding a cuttin' torch... that's a lot of labor. They
>> also mentioned welding the floor joists between the two halves.
>> That would have to be done very carefully
>>
>> The figure quoted was $45 a square foot. They have to use a
>> high-thermal-density ceramic coating on the outside ( because
>> of solar load in Florida ). If the containers comprise half the
>> square footage, that half of a 2k sq ft house is $45,000. Yowch. If
>> the rest is half that, then the whole thing costs $67,500 for
>> 2k sq ft.
>>
>> To be honest with you - I bet you can find a short sale or
>> repo quicker and cheaper than you can get this done. You're still
>> on the hook for trusses, interior and flooring. I don't remember
>> the exact ratio, but getting a concrete block shell in Florida was
>> pretty cheap when last I checked. People there are pretty hard up.
>>
>> If you had a site that was appropriate for rammed earth,
>> had local materials on your land for the exterior parts that
>> show, these might be interesting - ignoring rust. But the value-add
>> is extensive.
>>
>> And finally, if you just go hacking on these, you're likely
>> to compromise them. They're an engineered "exoskeleton" - the
>> skin is load-bearing. You can make mistakes if you don't know
>> the engineering.
>>
>> What I could visualize is using these on a hillside site as part of a
>> cantilever structure, but ... that's way over my head
>> engineeringwise.
>>> "Les Cargill" <lcargill99@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>> news:hbdt84$f9o$2@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>> sr wrote:
>>>>> Anyone have experience with reconstructing freight or cargo
>>>>> container into green housing?
>>>>> Sandy in Maine
>>>> A friend once converted a boxcar into a shop building. Worked
>>>> great. I suppose you could make housing out of it...
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Les Cargill
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Les Cargill

== 8 of 9 ==
Date: Sun, Oct 18 2009 5:54 pm
From: "sr"

We aren't so sophisticated to have access to that material.
We are a town of 700.

After the storm, I'll make way to the cafe internet, if it is still in
operation.
Up here, it stores are here one day, gone the next.

One thing for sure, I'm not paying 45 a ft.
When I bought this place, I read books that said I would be paying 3 times
the cost per sq ft. that I actually paid. It was during another down market,
plenty of workers. I know enough myself to do the wiring, except the fuse
box,
plumbing, sheetrock, floors. And, enough to make the workers honest.

Up here, you can do as much as you like on your
own without inspectors, except for the fuse box, and septic.

Thanks to adult education classes and a bunch of books, I got off cheap.

The college we have close to me is an environmental school. I mentioned the
container housing, to the powers that be, container living is considered
"Green". so
I believed this school would be in the Know.
I was looked at as
having 3 heads.
========it takes about 20 years for Maine to catch up ====

Les Cargill" <lcargill99@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:hbfjv9$u0b$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> sr wrote:
>> Ofcourse, Bobvile did a segiment , saw it online some time back. My
>> computer hasn't enough power to watch the demostration. Bummer. Can't
>> watch anything online, which would be a big help. One thing, I wouldn't
>> be using spray foam, discount panels are cheaper. $240 for a cord in
>> Bangor, ME
>> thanks
>
>
> If there's some way you can get to that video, I would before
> spending dime one. Ask at your public library.
>
> IMO ( just IMO, mind you ), it's a bust,
> especially in a down builder's market. But it depends on what
> you have in mind. $45 a square foot, he says.
>
> The opening of the box is too narrow for much beyond storage, and
> the cost of widening it is very high. But again, if you had
> the right site, and the right skills... you'd be better off
> working for money and not doing this :)
>
> --
> Les Cargil

== 9 of 9 ==
Date: Sun, Oct 18 2009 6:04 pm
From: "sr"

don't know about downloads, regretfully, did find a book. 50 bucks
http://container4home.com/
Amazon doesn't carry this one. yet

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7k14j9F36r3rhU1@mid.individual.net...
> sr wrote:
>
>> Ofcourse, Bobvile did a segiment , saw it online some time back. My
>> computer hasn't enough power to watch the demostration. Bummer. Can't
>> watch anything online, which would be a big help.
>
> There are downloaders for situations like that.
>
>> One thing, I wouldn't be using spray foam, discount panels are cheaper.
>> $240 for a cord in Bangor, ME thanks
>
>
>> "Les Cargill" <lcargill99@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:hbfgo1$3od$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>> sr wrote:
>>>> Yes, a friend of a friend use a train section for a diner, neat-
>>>> and a friend used a school bus, I was never that interested, at the
>>>> time, to ask
>>>> constuction questions, wish I had. I imagine there will be need of
>>>> weilding skills.
>>>> That's costly, in itself. I need a book on the basics of converting
>>>> shipping container
>>>> into a home. Every step, every detail. Still searching.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I've seen ISBUs being prepped for bein' sent to the sandbox ( Iraq ).
>>>
>>> I can't tell you anything directly, but this was interesting:
>>>
>>> http://video.bobvila.com/m/21320565/converting-steel-shipping-containers-to-housing.htm
>>>
>>>
>>> This means wielding a cuttin' torch... that's a lot of labor. They
>>> also mentioned welding the floor joists between the two halves.
>>> That would have to be done very carefully
>>>
>>> The figure quoted was $45 a square foot. They have to use a
>>> high-thermal-density ceramic coating on the outside ( because
>>> of solar load in Florida ). If the containers comprise half the
>>> square footage, that half of a 2k sq ft house is $45,000. Yowch. If
>>> the rest is half that, then the whole thing costs $67,500 for
>>> 2k sq ft.
>>>
>>> To be honest with you - I bet you can find a short sale or
>>> repo quicker and cheaper than you can get this done. You're still
>>> on the hook for trusses, interior and flooring. I don't remember
>>> the exact ratio, but getting a concrete block shell in Florida was
>>> pretty cheap when last I checked. People there are pretty hard up.
>>>
>>> If you had a site that was appropriate for rammed earth,
>>> had local materials on your land for the exterior parts that
>>> show, these might be interesting - ignoring rust. But the value-add
>>> is extensive.
>>>
>>> And finally, if you just go hacking on these, you're likely
>>> to compromise them. They're an engineered "exoskeleton" - the
>>> skin is load-bearing. You can make mistakes if you don't know
>>> the engineering.
>>>
>>> What I could visualize is using these on a hillside site as part of a
>>> cantilever structure, but ... that's way over my head
>>> engineeringwise.
>>>> "Les Cargill" <lcargill99@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:hbdt84$f9o$2@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>> sr wrote:
>>>>>> Anyone have experience with reconstructing freight or cargo
>>>>>> container into green housing?
>>>>>> Sandy in Maine
>>>>> A friend once converted a boxcar into a shop building. Worked
>>>>> great. I suppose you could make housing out of it...
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Les Cargill
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Les Cargill
>
>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: was anyone here now, on at the Y2K scare?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/73a6174a478bd0a3?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Oct 18 2009 9:51 am
From: gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston)

In article <4806b$4ada8b4c$ccb5841b$24637@ispn.net>,
sr <solos42@uninets.net> wrote:
>Good suggestion.
> Not knowing much about computers.Back than,
>and not anymore today,
> I did put all that
>information on frugal living and survival tips ,on the computer ,I lost
>all of it, along with my income tax returns, stocks, all gone

There is this concept called "backups" which I highly recommend. In fact,
I found it appalling that Microsoft consumer operating systems didn't
incorporate a backup program prior to Windows XP (other than "copy").

Now, with low-cost flash and external USB drives or DVD writers, there's
no reason to not be making backups. Remember to store them offsite, too.

If you had a hard drive crash, data can frequently be recovered--but the
cost is pretty high.

>So, when the Big Bang didn't happen, what did you think?
[ ... ]

That all the doomsday soothsayers were wrong, as usual, particularly
since most of them knew next to nothing about IT. I've been working in
IT since the mid '80s and didn't stockpile anything or buy a generator.

The network I was supporting had no problems, and I don't personally
know anyone who did have any.

Now, someone is claiming that an ancient Aztec calendar says the world will
end in 2012; more nonsense to get attention and money.

Gary

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Oct 18 2009 10:45 am
From: "sr"

You wouldn't happen to be listening to that overnight show, would you?
That one, I am not getting sucked into. The Maine winters are more
threating to me than 2012.
Now, I had a friend that worked in the high tech business, he validated
the worry. I haven't heard from him since, as I lost my computer.
I would love to hear his explanation, however. He was one of the
BRAINS in school. So I took it serously. I have since wised up.
I think

"Gary Heston" <gheston@hiwaay.net> wrote in message
news:UJ-dnRGP5t402kbXnZ2dnUVZ_uednZ2d@posted.hiwaay2...
> In article <4806b$4ada8b4c$ccb5841b$24637@ispn.net>,
> sr <solos42@uninets.net> wrote:
>>Good suggestion.
>> Not knowing much about computers.Back than,
>>and not anymore today,
>> I did put all that
>>information on frugal living and survival tips ,on the computer ,I lost
>>all of it, along with my income tax returns, stocks, all gone
>
> There is this concept called "backups" which I highly recommend. In fact,
> I found it appalling that Microsoft consumer operating systems didn't
> incorporate a backup program prior to Windows XP (other than "copy").
>
> Now, with low-cost flash and external USB drives or DVD writers, there's
> no reason to not be making backups. Remember to store them offsite, too.
>
> If you had a hard drive crash, data can frequently be recovered--but the
> cost is pretty high.
>
>>So, when the Big Bang didn't happen, what did you think?
> [ ... ]
>
> That all the doomsday soothsayers were wrong, as usual, particularly
> since most of them knew next to nothing about IT. I've been working in
> IT since the mid '80s and didn't stockpile anything or buy a generator.
>
> The network I was supporting had no problems, and I don't personally
> know anyone who did have any.
>
> Now, someone is claiming that an ancient Aztec calendar says the world
> will
> end in 2012; more nonsense to get attention and money.
>
>
> Gary
>
> --
> Gary Heston gheston@hiwaay.net http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/
> "Where large, expensive pieces of exotic woods are converted to valueless,
> hard to dispose of sawdust, chips and scraps." Charlie B.s' definition of
> woodworking.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Oct 18 2009 5:54 pm
From: Marsha

Gary Heston wrote:
> Now, someone is claiming that an ancient Aztec calendar says the world will
> end in 2012; more nonsense to get attention and money.
>
> Gary

Won't you look silly when the world does end ;-)

Marsha

==============================================================================
TOPIC: "Liberalism is a mental disorder"
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/30a918440259c12c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Oct 18 2009 10:03 am
From: Les Cargill

Bill wrote:
> To me it is not "liberal" vs "conservative", rather it is "we the people" vs
> greedy large corporations and foreign governments.
>
> I believe it is better to spend OUR money in this country on ANYTHING here
> rather than giving billions of dollars to foreign countries.

It depends. You have to measure it very carefully and decide only
after all the facts are in. This assumes you can *find* all
the facts.

We're not "giving" anything to foreign countries - they send in goods,
we send over government bonds in exchange. Now they're holding the
bonds, which means they're "partnered" with us. They're "the bank", and
"if you owe the bank a billion dollars, you own the bank".

I think fighting poverty is important. And I have seen materials which
claim ( and the claims are backed up with numbers ) that the queen
of this prom, WalMart, has done more for the material wellbeing of
poor people than all the government programs combined.

Is that true? I don't know. But it's something to think
about.

> For example
> fixing our bridges, roads, keeping people in their homes, jobs, etc. (things
> which are good and helpful for "we the people").
>

Maybe. Being house poor is no fun. A person in over their head may be
better off renting and saving money.

> And I believe it is better to do things which will in the long term reduce
> our energy costs (what you and I pay for gasoline, electricity, and heating)
> as opposed to making big oil companies rich with OUR money.
>

Well, sure. But it's harder than it looks. I'm a big nuke
fan. I think we should use nukes to "make oil", of we can
find enough carbon feedstocks to do it. But I really
don't know what that costs now, or will cost when it's
a mature technology. I'm pretty sure it would cost a whole
lot more than what we're doing now, but at present, we don't even
have a model for the question "what's the replacement cost of
a barrel of oil."

> Everybody I talk to wants these things. So I think we need to form a new
> political party called the "We the people" party!*
>

People have done on-the-spot interviews of people both at
Obama type rallies and tea parties. Both sides seem to lack a
great deal of necessary information to say what they are saying.

> *Note: An old trick is to "divide and conquer". Do you think they get us all
> wrapped up arguing about silly issues like abortion, gay rights, liberal,
> conservative, etc., then while we are busy arguing, they raid the U.S.
> treasury? So don't be a blind sheep following your "party line". THINK about
> what is best for YOU!
>
>

--
Les Cargill

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Oct 18 2009 10:11 am
From: Les Cargill

Shawn Hirn wrote:
> In article
> <8fdaacbf-c7e5-43c8-a7c2-e9ea26a510b2@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
> Roger <malapulga@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> [Michael Savage]
>>
>> As I have debated liberals over the years, I have found it makes no
>> difference what evidence I produce to support the logical development
>> of my point. Liberals have their opinion and they won't be swayed
>> with logic. They will interpret the US Constitution any way they wish
>> and that's it! What we conservatives need to do is quit wasting time
>> trying to convince liberals of the multiple errors of their ways and
>> get on with organizing ourselves into a public policy and, by
>> extension, a voting block. You aint never going to convince a
>> liberal. From now on, it will be "US" against "them".
>
> Hmm. I have had the same experience with conservatives.

Norman Podheretz has a book out about this. I saw him
give a talk on the subject* on CSPAN, and I think he's
probably about right. We can therefore presume that there
are "conservatives" who are inflexible and dogmatic, too - but
that for whatever reason, the side that seems to have the momentum
in being innovative in politics is the Right - this being
the old pendulum swing. It just seems to be this way - the
Left is trying to catch up, and not doing New Stuff.

*which is what people do now instead of reading the book :)

Maybe arguing about left and right is a waste of time,
and arguing about facts is better. Unfortunately, the
left v. right thing is apparently better entertainment.

And I quote Leonard Nimoy from "The Simpsons" - "Hello.
I'm Leonard Nimoy. The following tale of alien encounters
is true. And by true, I mean false. It's all lies. But
they're entertaining lies. And in the end, isn't that
the real truth? The answer is: No."

--
Les Cargill

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Eggplant going bad?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/22a79542d7957093?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Oct 18 2009 10:05 am
From: gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston)

In article <ec3f0$4adb3144$ccb58439$12015@ispn.net>,
sr <solos42@uninets.net> wrote:
>Let me clarify, I said salt is a perservative, along that line of thinking.
>Why is it a perservative? We know a salt solution is use when we have a
>sore throat, also a saline solution (salt and sterile water) is use for
>nasal sprays, a weaker solution for eye washes, etc. so it follows, salt
>kills bacteria, therefore the eggplant would be okay to eay, as it was
>salted. I thought just stating it is a perservative would be statement
>enough, I was wrong, again.>

The amount of salt used to cure a ham is a lot more per weight than the
amount used to draw liquid out of eggplant. For salt to do effective
preservation, there has to be a pretty high concentration of it.

Or, the landfills are filled with well-preserved french fries...

Actual Frugal Content: Dinner last night included included a Japanese
eggplant and peppers from my garden.

Which had frost on it this morning, blast it.

Gary

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Oct 18 2009 11:15 am
From: "Rod Speed"

sr wrote

> Let me clarify, I said salt is a perservative, along that line of thinking.

It isnt with eggplants when used like she did.

> Why is it a perservative? We know a salt solution is use when we have a sore throat, also a saline solution (salt and
> sterile
> water) is use for nasal sprays, a weaker solution for eye washes, etc. so it follows, salt kills bacteria, therefore
> the eggplant would be okay to eay, as it was salted.

It would be fine unsalted too. Essentially because there is no
bacteria that matters with those eggplant slices. And she only
sliced it up to apply the salt to get rid of the bitter taste anyway.

The eggplant would survive fine not cut up, out of the fridge overnight.

> I thought just stating it is a perservative would be statement enough, I was wrong, again

And you are again now.

>>>> Not with vegetables it isnt.
>>
>>>>> Remember how hams are salted down, etc
>>
>>>> Thats meat, not a vegetable.
>>
>>
>>>>> noel888 <harri85274@aol.com> wrote
>>
>>>>>> My wife had setup salting sliced eggplants for today's meal. She
>>>>>> had put them in a colander with salt to get rid of the
>>>>>> bitterness. The problem? She left them out on the kitchen
>>>>>> counter overnight. I said to her that it has to be thrown out
>>>>>> and she said that the salt has preserved them...now we are
>>>>>> debating. Any suggestions?

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Oct 18 2009 5:34 pm
From: "sr"

You make my statement more complicated than it was , Rod Speed.
My point is, salt has a the ability to retard bacteria growth. Bacteria
that causes the breaking down (rotting) process to begin. Wasn't that the
question? I wasn't making any point about cooking procedure and outcome.
Perhaps, I misread the original question, if the only question was, is it
eatable, without wondering about the safety (being left out all night) The
lady said it was salted, so safe. I elaborated on why it was probably safe.
So, I wonder : the rest of the story? Was it eaten or not. It would be
nice to hear from the original posters.
==========
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7k14agF37th3aU1@mid.individual.net...
> sr wrote
>
>> Let me clarify, I said salt is a perservative, along that line of
>> thinking.
>
> It isnt with eggplants when used like she did.
>
>> Why is it a perservative? We know a salt solution is use when we have a
>> sore throat, also a saline solution (salt and sterile
>> water) is use for nasal sprays, a weaker solution for eye washes, etc. so
>> it follows, salt kills bacteria, therefore the eggplant would be okay to
>> eay, as it was salted.
>
> It would be fine unsalted too. Essentially because there is no
> bacteria that matters with those eggplant slices. And she only
> sliced it up to apply the salt to get rid of the bitter taste anyway.
>
> The eggplant would survive fine not cut up, out of the fridge overnight.
>
>> I thought just stating it is a perservative would be statement enough, I
>> was wrong, again
>
> And you are again now.
>
>
>>>>> Not with vegetables it isnt.
>>>
>>>>>> Remember how hams are salted down, etc
>>>
>>>>> Thats meat, not a vegetable.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> noel888 <harri85274@aol.com> wrote
>>>
>>>>>>> My wife had setup salting sliced eggplants for today's meal. She
>>>>>>> had put them in a colander with salt to get rid of the
>>>>>>> bitterness. The problem? She left them out on the kitchen
>>>>>>> counter overnight. I said to her that it has to be thrown out
>>>>>>> and she said that the salt has preserved them...now we are
>>>>>>> debating. Any suggestions?
>
>

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Oct 18 2009 6:21 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

sr wrote:

> You make my statement more complicated than it was , Rod Speed.

Nope. The salt has no effect whatever on the safety of the eggplant being discussed.

> My point is, salt has a the ability to retard bacteria growth.

Not in the situation being discussed it doesnt.

> Bacteria that causes the breaking down (rotting) process to begin.

There is no 'breaking down (rotting) process'
with slices of eggplant not in the fridge overnight.

The most that might happen is that they might dry out a bit.

> Wasn't that the question?

Nope, the question was whether it was safe to eat it.

Of course it is.

> I wasn't making any point about cooking procedure and outcome. Perhaps, I misread the original question, if the only
> question was, is it eatable, without wondering about the safety (being left out all night)

The question was indeed about the safety.

> The lady said it was salted, so safe. I elaborated on why it was probably safe.

But mangled the story completely because no brine was involved.

> So, I wonder : the rest of the story? Was it eaten or not.

Doesnt matter. What matters is that it was safe to eat.

> It would be nice to hear from the original posters.

Some of them appear to hide under the bed when anything is at
all controversial or dont like other than black and white answers.

> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> sr wrote

>>> Let me clarify, I said salt is a perservative, along that line of thinking.
>>
>> It isnt with eggplants when used like she did.
>>
>>> Why is it a perservative? We know a salt solution is use when we
>>> have a sore throat, also a saline solution (salt and sterile
>>> water) is use for nasal sprays, a weaker solution for eye washes,
>>> etc. so it follows, salt kills bacteria, therefore the eggplant
>>> would be okay to eay, as it was salted.
>>
>> It would be fine unsalted too. Essentially because there is no
>> bacteria that matters with those eggplant slices. And she only
>> sliced it up to apply the salt to get rid of the bitter taste anyway.
>>
>> The eggplant would survive fine not cut up, out of the fridge
>> overnight.
>>> I thought just stating it is a perservative would be statement
>>> enough, I was wrong, again
>>
>> And you are again now.
>>
>>
>>>>>> Not with vegetables it isnt.
>>>>
>>>>>>> Remember how hams are salted down, etc
>>>>
>>>>>> Thats meat, not a vegetable.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> noel888 <harri85274@aol.com> wrote
>>>>
>>>>>>>> My wife had setup salting sliced eggplants for today's meal.
>>>>>>>> She had put them in a colander with salt to get rid of the
>>>>>>>> bitterness. The problem? She left them out on the kitchen
>>>>>>>> counter overnight. I said to her that it has to be thrown out
>>>>>>>> and she said that the salt has preserved them...now we are
>>>>>>>> debating. Any suggestions?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: There is no "right" to profit from Health Insurance. It is Fraud.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/e14cb160c2e4a0dd?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Oct 18 2009 10:05 am
From: Wilson Woods

Rod Speed wrote:
> Michael Coburn, a looter, wrote:
>> On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 05:52:33 +1100, Rod Speed wrote:
>> [...]

You're not dealing with an honest participant in the looter Coburn.
This guy started out saying that medical insurance doesn't benefit the
consumer, period - that the entire enterprise is a waste. Several posts
in, he suddenly switched to saying that medical insurance doesn't
benefit the consumer *in contrast* to a government run provision of /
payment for medical care. In other words, what he's arguing is not that
privately provided medical insurance is inefficient in the private payer
system we currently have - he's arguing for an abandonment of that
system and the complete provision of medical care by government as a
"right" held by people. That's a dishonest switch, but it is at least
consistent with the looter's socialist beliefs.

Extremists need bogeymen, and that's all the insurance companies are to
extreme leftists like Coburn. It's funny that he's making such a sham
of saying that it's only *insurance* profits to which he objects,
because socialists like him object to profits in principle, no matter
the industry or its participants. So, Coburn would have you believe
that profit is appropriate for everyone else in the medical care
business - hospital chains, medical corporations, pharmaceutical
companies, companies that manufacture MRI and CT machines (and hospital
beds and IV drip bags and on and on) - but it's "only" the insurance
companies to whose profits he objects. But of course, socialists object
to profit for anyone in the medical care industry, or for anyone in any
industry. Coburn is no different.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Oct 18 2009 11:33 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Wilson Woods wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Michael Coburn, a looter, wrote:
>>> Rod Speed wrote

> You're not dealing with an honest participant in the looter Coburn.

He's just misguided. You in spades.

He's only a truck driver, nothing like a rocket scientist.

> This guy started out saying that medical insurance doesn't benefit the consumer, period - that the entire enterprise
> is a waste.

Thats a dishonest misrepresentation of what he actually said.

> Several posts in, he suddenly switched to saying that medical insurance doesn't benefit the consumer *in contrast* to
> a government run provision of / payment for medical care.

And that is correct. Every other modern first and second world
country gets its health care for HALF the percentage of GDP that
the US does. And on any sensible measure like longevity and years
in good health, every other first world country does better too.

> In other words, what he's arguing is not that privately provided medical insurance is inefficient in the private payer
> system we currently have - he's arguing for an abandonment of that system and the complete provision of medical care
> by government

He's actually arguing both.

> as a "right" held by people.

He never said that either.

> That's a dishonest switch,

And you are dishonestly misrepresenting what he actually said.

> but it is at least consistent with the looter's socialist beliefs.

And the voter's beliefs too. They've been in favor of those unspeakable
'socialist' schemes of the VA system, Medicare, social security, public
education, the cops, the military, the judiciary etc etc etc for quite some time now.

> Extremists need bogeymen,

Yes, you clearly do.

> and that's all the insurance companies are to extreme leftists like Coburn.

You wouldnt know what a real extreme lefty was if one bit you on your lard arse.

> It's funny that he's making such a sham of saying that it's only *insurance* profits to which he objects, because
> socialists like him object to profits in principle, no matter the industry or its participants.

He doesnt.

> So, Coburn would have you believe that profit is appropriate for everyone else in the medical care business - hospital
> chains, medical corporations, pharmaceutical companies, companies that manufacture MRI and CT machines (and
> hospital beds and IV drip bags and on and on) - but it's "only" the insurance companies to whose profits he objects.

He doesnt just object to their profits.

> But of course, socialists object to profit for anyone in the medical care industry, or for anyone in any industry.
> Coburn is no different.

You're so stupid that you havent even noticed that the US already has
one of the biggest socialist health care systems in the entire world.

Its just not universal.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Oct 18 2009 4:48 pm
From: Wilson Woods

Rod Speed wrote:
> Wilson Woods wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote
>>> Michael Coburn, a looter, wrote:
>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>
>> You're not dealing with an honest participant in the looter Coburn.
>
> He's just misguided. You in spades.

Not even close.

>
> He's only a truck driver, nothing like a rocket scientist.

He's neither.

>
>> This guy started out saying that medical insurance doesn't benefit the consumer, period - that the entire enterprise
>> is a waste.
>
> Thats a dishonest misrepresentation of what he actually said.

No, it isn't:

Some poster:
You think that it is wrong to make money by providing healthcare?

The looter Coburn:
Nope. It is the profits from providing health _insurance_ that are
"wrong" (meaning economically perverse).

Later, when I said that insurance provides the valuable service of risk
pooling, the looter Coburn cam back with:

That is not an explanation of how profit incentive in health
insurance systems provide a social plus as such profit incentives do
in actual productive enterprises.

So, you're either a liar, blind, or just fucking stupid.

>
>> Several posts in, he suddenly switched to saying that medical insurance doesn't benefit the consumer *in contrast* to
>> a government run provision of / payment for medical care.
>
> And that is correct.

No, it's incorrect.

> Every other modern first and second world
> country gets its health care for HALF the percentage of GDP that
> the US does.

No, they don't. It's a smaller percentage, but it isn't half. You're
lying or ill informed.

It's also beside the point.

> And on any sensible measure like longevity and years
> in good health, every other first world country does better too.

There is far more to longevity figures than medical care.

>> In other words, what he's arguing is not that privately provided medical insurance is inefficient in the private payer
>> system we currently have - he's arguing for an abandonment of that system and the complete provision of medical care
>> by government
>
> He's actually arguing both.

He isn't. He hasn't even attempted to show that insurance is
inefficient in the context of a private payer system.

>
>> as a "right" held by people.
>
> He never said that either.

I didn't say he said it explicitly. It is obviously implied by what he
has written.

>
>> That's a dishonest switch,
>
> And you are dishonestly misrepresenting what he actually said.

No, I am not.

>
>> but it is at least consistent with the looter's socialist beliefs.
>
> And the voter's beliefs too.

No.

> They've been in favor of those unspeakable
> 'socialist' schemes of the VA system,

VA is a targeted benefit to military veterans.

> Medicare, social security,

It isn't clear how much voter support there is for these.

> public
> education, the cops, the military, the judiciary etc etc etc for quite some time now.
>

Not comparable especially to all those following public education.
Police, military, judiciary are not redistributive.

>> Extremists need bogeymen,
>
> Yes, you clearly do.

Nope. I'm not an extremist.

>
>> and that's all the insurance companies are to extreme leftists like Coburn.
>
> You wouldnt know what a real extreme lefty was if

I do.

>> It's funny that he's making such a sham of saying that it's only *insurance* profits to which he objects, because
>> socialists like him object to profits in principle, no matter the industry or its participants.
>
> He doesnt.

He wants to suggest he doesn't, but I suspect he does.

>
>> So, Coburn would have you believe that profit is appropriate for everyone else in the medical care business - hospital
>> chains, medical corporations, pharmaceutical companies, companies that manufacture MRI and CT machines (and
>> hospital beds and IV drip bags and on and on) - but it's "only" the insurance companies to whose profits he objects.
>
> He doesnt just object to their profits.

He does, of course. You're a fucking idiot.

>
>> But of course, socialists object to profit for anyone in the medical care industry, or for anyone in any industry.
>> Coburn is no different.
>
> You're so stupid that you havent even noticed that the US already has
> one of the biggest socialist health care systems in the entire world.

It doesn't, of course. You're completely full of shit.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Oct 18 2009 6:15 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Wilson Woods wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Wilson Woods wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> Michael Coburn wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed wrote

>>> You're not dealing with an honest participant in the looter Coburn.

>> He's just misguided. You in spades.

> Not even close.

Fraid so.

>> He's only a truck driver, nothing like a rocket scientist.

> He's neither.

Thats what he was, a truck driver, quite literally.

>>> This guy started out saying that medical insurance doesn't benefit
>>> the consumer, period - that the entire enterprise is a waste.

>> Thats a dishonest misrepresentation of what he actually said.

> No, it isn't:

Yes it is.

> Some poster:
> You think that it is wrong to make money by providing healthcare?

> The looter Coburn:
> Nope. It is the profits from providing health _insurance_ that are "wrong" (meaning economically perverse).

Nothing like your lie above.

> Later, when I said that insurance provides the valuable service ofrisk pooling, the looter Coburn cam back with:

> That is not an explanation of how profit incentive in health
> insurance systems provide a social plus as such profit incentives do in actual productive enterprises.

Nothing like your lie.

> So, you're either a liar, blind, or just fucking stupid.

And since this is the best you can manage, here goes the chain on the rest of your shit.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: ｡◕０◕｡ DG Shoes, Prada Shoes 2009 Factory promotion with high quality
at website: www.fjrjtrade.com (paypal payment)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/6a889af51d914a15?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Oct 18 2009 10:15 am
From: fjrjtrade

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Join the"Global Information Network"& learn how to make $100K in 90
days!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/da1b3dce2263a2aa?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Oct 18 2009 12:14 pm
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: How 2 Become An Alpha Male?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/3fb465a6194ebef5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Oct 18 2009 3:52 pm
From: Al

On Oct 18, 12:42 am, apurwi <dra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Start Acting Like an Alpha Male
> Seduce a Woman Easily and Properly
>
> Happy Dating :)
>
> Agus Purwiyanto
> i

The Flintstone caveman club still works for me:
Thanks.

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misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 8 topics - digest

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