Frugal Living: 24 new messages in 12 topics

Saturday, September 8, 2007

24 new messages in 12 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: all the clothes and shoes are in good quality
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e0e5faa397059935?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 8 2007 11:25 am
From: "Rod Speed"

You'll have to pardon us if we decide that if you
can't even manage viable english, it's unlikely
that your products are very good quality either.

crina588 <yfshoe1@yahoo.com.cn> wrote:
> Hey,friends
> Do you know Yue Feng shoes Trading Co.,Ltd??? Every businessman knows
> it very much!!! They are reliable and professional supplier.They can
> offer a lot of brand products in high qualities and at a low price.
> Such as nike shoes, adidas, prada, gucci, bape, puma, timberland and
> so on. And they can also offer clothes, bags, watches, jeans and so
> on. All the products come with original boxes, label and bar code.
> Their slogan is -- three good : Good products! Good price! Good
> service!
> Don't you want to know more??? Come on! Go to see this website
> www.yfshoe.cn Don't you want to contact them at once??? Go to contact
> it
> MSN: yfshoe1@hotmail.com
> yahoo:yfshoe1@yahoo.com.cn
> I will be looking forward to hearing from your reply

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Drive your car to death, save $31,000
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/23a659a15b17cab8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 8 2007 11:29 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Vic Smith <thismailautodeleted@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 21:31:13 -0700, SQ <onestatusquo@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Comments?
>> It seems to me that driving a car to 225,000 miles or buying a new
>> one every
>> year are two extremes? Maybe there is an optimum mileage/age for
>> upgrade?
>>
>> If you are DIY type, I can see how taking a car to 200K miles and
>> beyond
>> is not an issue...
>>
> Everybody has their own view on this.
> Mine has been to buy GM cars with 2.0, 2.2, 2.8 and 3.1
> engines, mostly Chevys. All pushrod.
> They are cheap, and I know the weaknesses, which signal themselves,
> and are inexpensive to rectify.
> You have to know which cars to select, and be willing to do some
> repairing for this approach to work. This takes a bit of study, some
> mechanical ability, talking with experienced mechanics, etc.
> Once you find something that works for you, stick with it.
> Otherwise read CR.
> $31k is a ridiculous number. Over a 40 year span, that is more than
> the sum total I have spent on about 10 cars, including those I bought
> for my children.
> Frugality with cars is probably the primary reason I found I could
> retire at 59. Never cared for them except for transportation, and
> never gave a shit about what anybody else thought of my ride.
> The kids did, though (-:

And they will be picking your nursing home. You'll be soorree.... |-(

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 8 2007 11:32 am
From: "Don"

"SQ"> wrote
> Drive your car to death, save $31,000

Bought my 1991 S10 brand new in Sep 1990 for $8,888.
Over the 5 year loan I actually paid over $14k for it.
Its been *free* ever since.

Do the math, $14k / 5 years = $2800 per year that I've saved in truck
payments.
Its been 12 years since I paid it off so the total that I've *saved*, er,
haven't paid is $33,600.

It currently has 144k miles and there have been no repairs over $300 (tires)
done to it.

Its one of the best purchases I've ever made.
Can't believe I've had that thing 1/3 of my life.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 8 2007 11:35 am
From: "Don"

"Chris Hill" <hillco@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:cad5e39kjanujumeo9a3uneefl39kakf45@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 21:31:13 -0700, SQ <onestatusquo@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Comments?
>>It seems to me that driving a car to 225,000 miles or buying a new one
>>every
>>year are two extremes? Maybe there is an optimum mileage/age for
>
>
> You never save money by trading payments for repair costs. Even
> spending $1200 a year repair costs on a truck is cheaper than paying
> $6000 a year in payments or more. Cost isn't a valid reason to trade;
> too many breakdowns or parts being unavailable are two good ones.

My last car, a 79 Chev Monza, had gotten to the point that I was spending as
much per month in repairs as a new car payment, so I traded it in.
No to mention the cost of having to deal with the whole thing, time off from
work, rental cars, the aggravation, the undependability, etc.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 8 2007 6:53 pm
From: "Gini"

"Chris Hill" <hillco@earthlink.net> wrote
onestatusquo@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Comments?
>>It seems to me that driving a car to 225,000 miles or buying a new one
>>every
>>year are two extremes? Maybe there is an optimum mileage/age for
>
>
> You never save money by trading payments for repair costs. Even
> spending $1200 a year repair costs on a truck is cheaper than paying
> $6000 a year in payments or more. Cost isn't a valid reason to trade;
> too many breakdowns or parts being unavailable are two good ones.
==
And, if you consistently run over the limit on AAA tows.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: When news media whine about 'labor shortages' it simply means employers
don't want to pay existing workers as much
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c75d3f8f8d3003a2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 8 2007 12:05 pm
From: royls@telus.net

On Sat, 8 Sep 2007 04:22:12 +1000, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

>Mindless stuff. Its also seen when the unemployment rate is very low
>and you dont even get any applicants at all for a particular well paid job.

LOL! Unless the qualifications are EXTREMELY narrow or the job
opening not publicized, that simply does not ever happen. The actual
meaning of "labor shortage" is "wages not declining fast enough
relative to asset prices to suit the rich."

-- Roy L

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 8 2007 12:46 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

royls@telus.net wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote

>> Mindless stuff. Its also seen when the unemployment rate is very low
>> and you dont even get any applicants at all for a particular well paid job.

> LOL! Unless the qualifications are EXTREMELY narrow or the
> job opening not publicized, that simply does not ever happen.

Corse it does, we have seen some employers desperate to get
qualified staff, who dont get even a single applicant in response
to their national ads, jobs as basic as truck driving etc.

> The actual meaning of "labor shortage" is "wages not
> declining fast enough relative to asset prices to suit the rich."

Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to actually substantiate that stupid claim.

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 8 2007 4:35 pm
From: "Mark M."

Rod Speed wrote:
> royls@telus.net wrote
>
>>Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>
>
>>>Mindless stuff. Its also seen when the unemployment rate is very low
>>>and you dont even get any applicants at all for a particular well paid job.
>
>
>>LOL! Unless the qualifications are EXTREMELY narrow or the
>>job opening not publicized, that simply does not ever happen.
>
>
> Corse it does, we have seen some employers desperate to get
> qualified staff, who dont get even a single applicant in response
> to their national ads, jobs as basic as truck driving etc.
>
>
>>The actual meaning of "labor shortage" is "wages not
>>declining fast enough relative to asset prices to suit the rich."
>
>
> Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to actually substantiate that stupid claim.

Any job can be filled if you're willing to pay enough. When employers say lower
wages are better what they really mean is they want to pay lower wages relative to
other employers. Low wages and high unemployment are indicators of a poor economy
with high social service costs and high crime. When wages are higher economy wide,
workers can afford to consume more products, which translates into greater overall
prosperity, lower social service costs, and lower crime.

Mark M.

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 8 2007 5:07 pm
From: "John A. Weeks III"

In article <5kgch9F3jkghU1@mid.individual.net>,
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

> > LOL! Unless the qualifications are EXTREMELY narrow or the
> > job opening not publicized, that simply does not ever happen.
>
> Corse it does, we have seen some employers desperate to get
> qualified staff, who dont get even a single applicant in response
> to their national ads, jobs as basic as truck driving etc.

If you are not getting applicants in this market, then you
are doing something very wrong. You either are not putting
the ads in the right place, you are putting in requirements
that are not needed, you are paying far under market, or your
company has such a bad reputation that people don't want to
work there. Which is it?

-john-

--
======================================================================
John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708 john@johnweeks.com
Newave Communications

http://www.johnweeks.com
======================================================================

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 8 2007 6:18 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Mark M. <markm@techz.net> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> royls@telus.net wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote

>>>> Mindless stuff. Its also seen when the unemployment rate is very low and you dont even get any applicants at all
>>>> for a particular well paid job.

>>> LOL! Unless the qualifications are EXTREMELY narrow or the
>>> job opening not publicized, that simply does not ever happen.

>> Corse it does, we have seen some employers desperate to get
>> qualified staff, who dont get even a single applicant in response
>> to their national ads, jobs as basic as truck driving etc.

>>> The actual meaning of "labor shortage" is "wages not
>>> declining fast enough relative to asset prices to suit the rich."

>> Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to actually substantiate that stupid claim.

> Any job can be filled if you're willing to pay enough.

Irrelevant to the mindlessly silly crap in the subject line.

> When employers say lower wages are better what they really mean is they want to pay lower wages relative to other
> employers.

Irrelevant to the mindlessly silly crap in the subject line.

> Low wages and high unemployment are indicators of a poor economy with high social service costs and high crime. When
> wages are higher economy wide, workers can afford to consume more products, which translates into greater overall
> prosperity, lower social service costs, and lower crime.

Irrelevant to the mindlessly silly crap in the subject line.

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 8 2007 6:21 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

John A. Weeks III <john@johnweeks.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote

>>> LOL! Unless the qualifications are EXTREMELY narrow or the
>>> job opening not publicized, that simply does not ever happen.

>> Corse it does, we have seen some employers desperate to get
>> qualified staff, who dont get even a single applicant in response
>> to their national ads, jobs as basic as truck driving etc.

> If you are not getting applicants in this market,
> then you are doing something very wrong.

Or the economy is booming.

> You either are not putting the ads in the right place, you
> are putting in requirements that are not needed, you are
> paying far under market, or your company has such a bad
> reputation that people don't want to work there. Which is it?

Usual mindlessly silly binary drivel.

The real reason is that some of our areas have an unemployment
rate of 1.x% and a desperate shortage of adequate accomodation
and plenty arent interested in 'living' in tents and trailers for long.

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 8 2007 7:22 pm
From: Too_Many_Tools

On Sep 8, 7:07 pm, "John A. Weeks III" <j...@johnweeks.com> wrote:
> In article <5kgch9F3jkg...@mid.individual.net>,
> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > LOL! Unless the qualifications are EXTREMELY narrow or the
> > > job opening not publicized, that simply does not ever happen.
>
> > Corse it does, we have seen some employers desperate to get
> > qualified staff, who dont get even a single applicant in response
> > to their national ads, jobs as basic as truck driving etc.
>
> If you are not getting applicants in this market, then you
> are doing something very wrong. You either are not putting
> the ads in the right place, you are putting in requirements
> that are not needed, you are paying far under market, or your
> company has such a bad reputation that people don't want to
> work there. Which is it?
>
> -john-
>
> --
> ======================================================================
> John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708 j...@johnweeks.com
> Newave Communications

http://www.johnweeks.com
> ======================================================================

All of the above.

Employers have a surprise coming.

TMT

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Guaranteed Winner! Fast Payouts Lots of ads! PTR
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/64400acb9a4dd264?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 8 2007 12:41 pm
From: Ants

Guaranteed Winner! Fast Payouts Lots of ads! PTR

ClixNCash

I get payouts all the time,
really quick and earn quick always has ads.
throughout the day and night.

http://www.clixncash.com/index.php?ref=kiwiants

Guaranteed Winner! Fast Payouts FREE

Have fun topping up your paypal

Anthony

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Suing a Dentist
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ef6126f6980eacfc?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 8 2007 1:04 pm
From: soretooth

Anyone here sued a dentist. Guy replaced filing on tooth that did not
hurt, now in pain and might need root canal. And he is expecting me to
pay for his procedure that failed and left me worse off than before.
What recourse do I have if any. Amount is not enuf to get the attention
of most attorneys.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 8 2007 2:47 pm
From: Al Bundy

soretooth wrote:
> Anyone here sued a dentist. Guy replaced filing on tooth that did not
> hurt, now in pain and might need root canal. And he is expecting me to
> pay for his procedure that failed and left me worse off than before.
> What recourse do I have if any. Amount is not enuf to get the attention
> of most attorneys.

You are jumping the gun. First, you are showing that you know little
about dentistry or teeth. The dentist is not responsible based upon
what you describe. He replaced a filling so there was prior work
there. He must have done an X-Ray to see if the tooth was infected.
That is not alway dispositive either. He surely medicated the area and
replaced the filling. Trauma to the tooth because of the filling
replacement can begin a process that results in the nerve becoming
sensitive. While it is possible the dentist made some error or
omission, it is difficult to tell now. All I can say is, these things
happen sometimes. Don't blame the dentist unless there is a repeat
pattern of these things.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 8 2007 4:25 pm
From: soretooth

I bet your a dentist right?

In any case in my many many years of seeing dentists and having many
filings replaced, this is the first time this has ever happened to me.

There are other issues involved that show this guy probably committed
malpractice, but, as I said there is not enough money involved to
interest most attorneys.

I know what to do, but not sure it will get my money back that was
wasted.

I do know that it will wind up costing him alot more than it cost me.

If you go to an mechanic and you get your car back worse than went you
went in, do you just pay the bill and walk away with a smile. Especially
now when these shysters are demanding payment in advance for their work.

Al Bundy <MSfortune@mcpmail.com> wrote in
news:1189288047.594366.51730@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com:

>
> soretooth wrote:
>> Anyone here sued a dentist. Guy replaced filing on tooth that did not
>> hurt, now in pain and might need root canal. And he is expecting me
>> to pay for his procedure that failed and left me worse off than
>> before. What recourse do I have if any. Amount is not enuf to get the
>> attention of most attorneys.
>
> You are jumping the gun. First, you are showing that you know little
> about dentistry or teeth. The dentist is not responsible based upon
> what you describe. He replaced a filling so there was prior work
> there. He must have done an X-Ray to see if the tooth was infected.
> That is not alway dispositive either. He surely medicated the area and
> replaced the filling. Trauma to the tooth because of the filling
> replacement can begin a process that results in the nerve becoming
> sensitive. While it is possible the dentist made some error or
> omission, it is difficult to tell now. All I can say is, these things
> happen sometimes. Don't blame the dentist unless there is a repeat
> pattern of these things.
>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: My swamp cooler / box fan . . . review
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/0f6479deacc6ec73?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 8 2007 1:16 pm
From: .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 11:02:47 -0700, Abby Normal
<a_bee_normal@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Sep 6, 7:50 pm, Abby Normal <a_bee_nor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Aug 15, 4:51 am, nicksans...@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Tockk <to...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> > >I bought one of these a while ago:
>>
>> >http://www.electric-fan.com/product/BFC2200.aspx
>>
>> > >for about 1/3 off, and it's been rainy and humid here in the Dallas area for
>> > >the past while. Haven't had the chance to use it until yesterday, when it
>> > >was hot and 33% humidity (according to the TV weatherman).
>>
>> > The ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort standard says that's very hot, with a predicted
>> > mean vote of 3.07 on a scale of -3 (very cold) to 0 (perfectly comfortable)
>> > to +3 (very hot.)
>>
>> > T (C) RH% Clo PMV PPD%
>>
>> > 35 33 .5 3.07171 99.38564
>>
>> > The standard predicts that 99.38564% of people surveyed would be dissatisfied.
>>
>> > >I fired it up, and used a thermometer to read the temperature of air going
>> > >in vs. air coming out. In my apartment, it read 95 degrees going in to the
>> > >fan, and 84 coming out of the fan.
>>
>> > The web site says it moves 415 cfm, and 1 Btu/h can cool 1 cfm about 1 F
>> > and 1000 Btu can evaporate 1 pound of water, so you were cooling the air by
>> > about 415(95-84) = 4565 Btu/h with about 4.565 pounds per hour of water.
>>
>> > With an outdoor vapor pressure Po = 0.33e^(17.863-9621/(460+95)) = 0.559 "Hg
>> > (using a Clausius-Clapeyron approximation--ask Caryn), and humidity ratio
>> > wo = 0.62198/(29.921/Po-1) = 0.00185 pounds of water per pound of dry air
>> > (1 ft^3 of 70 F air weighs 0.075 pounds), 4.565 = 60x415x0.075(wi-wo) makes
>> > wi = 0.014295 and Pi = 0.6877 "Hg with a 57.6% RH indoors, which would be
>> > a lot more comfy:
>>
>> > T (C) RH% Clo PMV PPD%
>>
>> > 28.88889 57.6 .5 .8197596 19.1735
>>
>> > Only 19.1735% of the people would be dissatisfied.
>>
>> > If you could evaporate 6 vs 4.565 pounds of water per hour, you could lower
>> > the outdoor air temp to 80.5 F with wi = 0.01506 and a 66.3% RH, which would
>> > be even more comfy:
>>
>> > T (C) RH% Clo PMV PPD%
>>
>> > 26.94445 66.3 .5 6.351899E02 5.083534
>>
>> > The ASHRAE comfort zone is defined by -0.5 < PMV < 0.5. They also limit
>> > the humidity ratio to 0.0120 max, so wi = 0.014295 is outside the zone,
>> > even though the calc below suggests it would be close to perfectly
>> > comfortable, with 5.083534 Per cent of People Dissatisfied.
>> > (You can't please everyone with one condition.)
>>
>> > >As far as ability to cool a room, well, it's limited.
>>
>> > You may be cooling more outdoor air than you need.
>>
>> > >I have two windows seperated by about 6 feet of wall space. I put
>> > >the cooler-fan in front of one window, and I have another fan
>> > >in the other window that pushes the air to the outside.
>>
>> > You might enjoy moving the cooler into the room and only running it when
>> > the room temp rises to 80.5 F with a thermostat, and only running the fan
>> > when the room RH rises to 66.3%, with a humidistat, eg this one:
>>
>> >http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/itemDetailsRender.shtml?ItemId=1...
>>
>> > >It holds a few gallons of water, which isn't enough for an 8 hour run.
>>
>> > If you are only cooling the room and C cfm of outdoor air with P pounds
>> > of water per hour, and the room thermal conductance is (say) 50 Btu/h-F,
>> > 1000P = (95-80.5)(50+C) and P = 60C0.075(wi-wo) make P = 1.73 lb/h and
>> > C = 120 cfm, so the 3.25 gallon reservoir would last 3.25x8.33/1.73 =
>> > 15.6 hours.
>>
>> > 50 CLO =.5'clothing insulation (clo)
>> > 60 MET=1.1'metabolic rate (met)
>> > 70 WME=0'external work (met)
>> > 80 TA=(80.5-32)/1.8'air temp (C)
>> > 90 TR=TA'mean radiant temp (C)
>> > 100 VEL=.5'air velocity
>> > 120 RH=66.3'relative humidity (%)
>> > 130 PA=0'water vapor pressure
>> > 140 DEF FNPS(T)=EXP(16.6536-4030.183/(TA+235))'sat vapor pressure, kPa
>> > 150 IF PA=0 THEN PA=RH*10*FNPS(TA)'water vapor pressure, Pa
>> > 160 ICL=.155*CLO'clothing resistance (m^2K/W)
>> > 170 M=MET*58.15'metabolic rate (W/m^2)
>> > 180 W=WME*58.15'external work in (W/m^2)
>> > 190 MW=M-W'internal heat production
>> > 200 IF ICL<.078 THEN FCL=1+1.29*ICL ELSE FCL=1.05+.645*ICL'clothing factor
>> > 210 HCF=12.1*SQR(VEL)'forced convection conductance
>> > 220 TAA=TA+273'air temp (K)
>> > 230 TRA=TR+273'mean radiant temp (K)
>> > 250 TCLA=TAA+(35.5-TA)/(3.5*(6.45*ICL+.1))'est clothing temp
>> > 260 P1=ICL*FCL:P2=P1*3.96:P3=P1*100:P4=P1*TAA'intermediate values
>> > 300 P5=308.7-.028*MW+P2*(TRA/100)^4
>> > 310 XN=TCLA/100
>> > 320 XF=XN
>> > 330 N=0'number of iterations
>> > 340 EPS=.00015'stop iteration when met
>> > 350 XF=(XF+XN)/2'natural convection conductance
>> > 360 HCN=2.38*ABS(100*XF-TAA)^.25
>> > 370 IF HCF>HCN THEN HC=HCF ELSE HC=HCN
>> > 380 XN=(P5+P4*HC-P2*XF^4)/(100+P3*HC)
>> > 390 N=N+1
>> > 400 IF N>150 GOTO 550
>> > 410 IF ABS(XN-XF)>EPS GOTO 350
>> > 420 TCL=100*XN-273'clothing surface temp (C)
>> > 440 HL1=.00305*(5733-6.99*MW-PA)'heat loss diff through skin
>> > 450 IF MW>58.15 THEN HL2=.42*(MW-58.15) ELSE HL2=0'heat loss by sweating
>> > 460 HL3=.000017*M*(5867-PA)'latent respiration heat loss
>> > 470 HL4=.0014*M*(34-TA)'dry respiration heat loss
>> > 480 HL5=3.96*FCL*(XN^4-(TRA/100)^4)'heat loss by radiation
>> > 490 HL6=FCL*HC*(TCL-TA)'heat loss by convection
>> > 510 TS=.303*EXP(-.036*M)+.028'thermal sensation transfer coefficient
>> > 520 PMV=TS*(MW-HL1-HL2-HL3-HL4-HL5-HL6)'predicted mean vote
>> > 530 PPD=100-95*EXP(-.03353*PMV^4-.2179*PMV^2)'predicted % dissatisfied
>> > 540 GOTO 580
>> > 550 PMV=99999!:PPD=100
>> > 580 PRINT TA,RH,CLO,PMV,PPD
>>
>> > T (C) RH% Clo PMV PPD%
>>
>> > 35 33 .5 3.07171 99.38564
>> > 28.88889 57.6 .5 .8197596 19.1735
>> > 26.94445 66.3 .5 6.351899E02 5.083534
>>
>> > Nick
>>
>> Am I reading you correct that you are finally using outside air?- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>Nope was the original poster using the outside air. Nick still cannot
>grasp the inherent flaw with using evaporative cooling on return air.

Give him another couple of decades, maybe he'll catch on.

--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 8 2007 1:19 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
> On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 11:02:47 -0700, Abby Normal
> <a_bee_normal@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sep 6, 7:50 pm, Abby Normal <a_bee_nor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On Aug 15, 4:51 am, nicksans...@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Tockk <to...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> I bought one of these a while ago:
>>>
>>>> http://www.electric-fan.com/product/BFC2200.aspx
>>>
>>>>> for about 1/3 off, and it's been rainy and humid here in the
>>>>> Dallas area for the past while. Haven't had the chance to use
>>>>> it until yesterday, when it was hot and 33% humidity (according
>>>>> to the TV weatherman).
>>>
>>>> The ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort standard says that's very hot, with a
>>>> predicted mean vote of 3.07 on a scale of -3 (very cold) to 0
>>>> (perfectly comfortable) to +3 (very hot.)
>>>
>>>> T (C) RH% Clo PMV PPD%
>>>
>>>> 35 33 .5 3.07171 99.38564
>>>
>>>> The standard predicts that 99.38564% of people surveyed would be
>>>> dissatisfied.
>>>
>>>>> I fired it up, and used a thermometer to read the temperature of
>>>>> air going in vs. air coming out. In my apartment, it read 95
>>>>> degrees going in to the fan, and 84 coming out of the fan.
>>>
>>>> The web site says it moves 415 cfm, and 1 Btu/h can cool 1 cfm
>>>> about 1 F
>>>> and 1000 Btu can evaporate 1 pound of water, so you were cooling
>>>> the air by about 415(95-84) = 4565 Btu/h with about 4.565 pounds
>>>> per hour of water.
>>>
>>>> With an outdoor vapor pressure Po = 0.33e^(17.863-9621/(460+95)) =
>>>> 0.559 "Hg (using a Clausius-Clapeyron approximation--ask Caryn),
>>>> and humidity ratio
>>>> wo = 0.62198/(29.921/Po-1) = 0.00185 pounds of water per pound of
>>>> dry air (1 ft^3 of 70 F air weighs 0.075 pounds), 4.565 =
>>>> 60x415x0.075(wi-wo) makes wi = 0.014295 and Pi = 0.6877 "Hg with a
>>>> 57.6% RH indoors, which would be
>>>> a lot more comfy:
>>>
>>>> T (C) RH% Clo PMV PPD%
>>>
>>>> 28.88889 57.6 .5 .8197596 19.1735
>>>
>>>> Only 19.1735% of the people would be dissatisfied.
>>>
>>>> If you could evaporate 6 vs 4.565 pounds of water per hour, you
>>>> could lower the outdoor air temp to 80.5 F with wi = 0.01506 and a
>>>> 66.3% RH, which would be even more comfy:
>>>
>>>> T (C) RH% Clo PMV PPD%
>>>
>>>> 26.94445 66.3 .5 6.351899E02 5.083534
>>>
>>>> The ASHRAE comfort zone is defined by -0.5 < PMV < 0.5. They also
>>>> limit
>>>> the humidity ratio to 0.0120 max, so wi = 0.014295 is outside the
>>>> zone,
>>>> even though the calc below suggests it would be close to perfectly
>>>> comfortable, with 5.083534 Per cent of People Dissatisfied.
>>>> (You can't please everyone with one condition.)
>>>
>>>>> As far as ability to cool a room, well, it's limited.
>>>
>>>> You may be cooling more outdoor air than you need.
>>>
>>>>> I have two windows seperated by about 6 feet of wall space. I
>>>>> put
>>>>> the cooler-fan in front of one window, and I have another fan
>>>>> in the other window that pushes the air to the outside.
>>>
>>>> You might enjoy moving the cooler into the room and only running
>>>> it when
>>>> the room temp rises to 80.5 F with a thermostat, and only running
>>>> the fan when the room RH rises to 66.3%, with a humidistat, eg
>>>> this one:
>>>
>>>> http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/itemDetailsRender.shtml?ItemId=1...
>>>
>>>>> It holds a few gallons of water, which isn't enough for an 8 hour
>>>>> run.
>>>
>>>> If you are only cooling the room and C cfm of outdoor air with P
>>>> pounds
>>>> of water per hour, and the room thermal conductance is (say) 50
>>>> Btu/h-F, 1000P = (95-80.5)(50+C) and P = 60C0.075(wi-wo) make P =
>>>> 1.73 lb/h and
>>>> C = 120 cfm, so the 3.25 gallon reservoir would last
>>>> 3.25x8.33/1.73 =
>>>> 15.6 hours.
>>>
>>>> 50 CLO =.5'clothing insulation (clo)
>>>> 60 MET=1.1'metabolic rate (met)
>>>> 70 WME=0'external work (met)
>>>> 80 TA=(80.5-32)/1.8'air temp (C)
>>>> 90 TR=TA'mean radiant temp (C)
>>>> 100 VEL=.5'air velocity
>>>> 120 RH=66.3'relative humidity (%)
>>>> 130 PA=0'water vapor pressure
>>>> 140 DEF FNPS(T)=EXP(16.6536-4030.183/(TA+235))'sat vapor pressure,
>>>> kPa 150 IF PA=0 THEN PA=RH*10*FNPS(TA)'water vapor pressure, Pa
>>>> 160 ICL=.155*CLO'clothing resistance (m^2K/W)
>>>> 170 M=MET*58.15'metabolic rate (W/m^2)
>>>> 180 W=WME*58.15'external work in (W/m^2)
>>>> 190 MW=M-W'internal heat production
>>>> 200 IF ICL<.078 THEN FCL=1+1.29*ICL ELSE
>>>> FCL=1.05+.645*ICL'clothing factor 210 HCF=12.1*SQR(VEL)'forced
>>>> convection conductance 220 TAA=TA+273'air temp (K)
>>>> 230 TRA=TR+273'mean radiant temp (K)
>>>> 250 TCLA=TAA+(35.5-TA)/(3.5*(6.45*ICL+.1))'est clothing temp
>>>> 260 P1=ICL*FCL:P2=P1*3.96:P3=P1*100:P4=P1*TAA'intermediate values
>>>> 300 P5=308.7-.028*MW+P2*(TRA/100)^4
>>>> 310 XN=TCLA/100
>>>> 320 XF=XN
>>>> 330 N=0'number of iterations
>>>> 340 EPS=.00015'stop iteration when met
>>>> 350 XF=(XF+XN)/2'natural convection conductance
>>>> 360 HCN=2.38*ABS(100*XF-TAA)^.25
>>>> 370 IF HCF>HCN THEN HC=HCF ELSE HC=HCN
>>>> 380 XN=(P5+P4*HC-P2*XF^4)/(100+P3*HC)
>>>> 390 N=N+1
>>>> 400 IF N>150 GOTO 550
>>>> 410 IF ABS(XN-XF)>EPS GOTO 350
>>>> 420 TCL=100*XN-273'clothing surface temp (C)
>>>> 440 HL1=.00305*(5733-6.99*MW-PA)'heat loss diff through skin
>>>> 450 IF MW>58.15 THEN HL2=.42*(MW-58.15) ELSE HL2=0'heat loss by
>>>> sweating 460 HL3=.000017*M*(5867-PA)'latent respiration heat loss
>>>> 470 HL4=.0014*M*(34-TA)'dry respiration heat loss
>>>> 480 HL5=3.96*FCL*(XN^4-(TRA/100)^4)'heat loss by radiation
>>>> 490 HL6=FCL*HC*(TCL-TA)'heat loss by convection
>>>> 510 TS=.303*EXP(-.036*M)+.028'thermal sensation transfer
>>>> coefficient 520 PMV=TS*(MW-HL1-HL2-HL3-HL4-HL5-HL6)'predicted mean
>>>> vote 530 PPD=100-95*EXP(-.03353*PMV^4-.2179*PMV^2)'predicted %
>>>> dissatisfied 540 GOTO 580
>>>> 550 PMV=99999!:PPD=100
>>>> 580 PRINT TA,RH,CLO,PMV,PPD
>>>
>>>> T (C) RH% Clo PMV PPD%
>>>
>>>> 35 33 .5 3.07171 99.38564
>>>> 28.88889 57.6 .5 .8197596 19.1735
>>>> 26.94445 66.3 .5 6.351899E02 5.083534
>>>
>>>> Nick
>>>
>>> Am I reading you correct that you are finally using outside air?-
>>> Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> Nope was the original poster using the outside air. Nick still cannot
>> grasp the inherent flaw with using evaporative cooling on return air.
>
> Give him another couple of decades, maybe he'll catch on.

Bet he doesnt. He backs himself into these logical corners and
is so thick that he never ever does manage to work out the problem.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Sell nike ,jordan,adidas, puma .shox ,dunk,T-shirt,jeans ,prada,hat,
hangbag.watch,
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/022ccff4e8becc7d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 8 2007 2:41 pm
From: leadnike

Our company specializes in supplying branded shoes, such as. Nike
Jordan , Shox (NZ OZ TL TL2 TL3 TL4 R4 R5 TU MOSTRO), AirMax (TN TN2
TN3 TN6 91 95 97 2003 2004 2005 306), James , Dunk , Air force ones ,
Kobe , Air rift ,and other products: adidas , puma , bape , prada ,
ice creame and so on.Insisting on the principle of "Trust and
Friendship", we have more clients oversea of this nike shoes. We
sincerely hope to explore more cooperation opportunities with clients
both at home and abroad on the basis of mutual benefit and common
development.
websitele. http://www.lead-nike.com
Email: lead_nike@yahoo.com.cn
MSN: lead-nike@hotmail.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Canned Tuna in Water
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/cb6748c3b8405f6f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 8 2007 5:24 pm
From: val189

On Sep 7, 10:00 pm, Dennis <dg...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> My favorite use for canned tuna is in a salad that has equal portions
> of diced white onion, celery and red pepper, plus a can of drained
> chickpeas. I usually dress it with olive oil and balsamic vinegar,
> with a little cumin mixed in. Yum! Very filling and pretty healthy
> too.

This sounds like something I dragged to work for years - plus I added
some fusilli. Frugal, tasty,and nourishing.
I also added a bit of curry powder.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: www.cheapestsell.com : nike air max air force one guuci prada lacoste D&
G adiads Dior shoes
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/999230cd41bdce0b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 8 2007 7:16 pm
From: 001

Cheap sport shoe
www.cheapestsell.com

Hotmail:cheapestsell@hotmail.com
Yahoo: cheapestsell@yahoo.com.cn
www.cheapestsell.com
Nike Air Jordan 1 ,Nike Air Jordan 2 Shoes,Nike Air Jordan 3,Nike Air
Jordan 4 Shoes ,Nike Air Jordan 5 Chaussure Shoes,Nike Air Jordan 6
Catalog ,Nike Air Jordan 7 Shoes Catalog ,
Nike Air Jordan 8 Customized ,Nike Air Jordan 9 Shoes Customized ,Nike
Air Jordan 10 Wholesalers,Nike Jordan 11 Shoes Wholesalers,Nike Air
Jordan 12 retailer,Nike Air Jordan 13 Shoes Factory ,Nike Air Jordan
14 Shoes Sell,Nike Air Jordan 16 Exporter ,Nike Air Jordan 17 Shoes
Exporter, Nike Air Jordan 18 Offer, Nike Air Jordan 19 Shoes
Offer,Nike Air Jordan 20 Manufacture,Nike Jordan 21 Shoes
Manufacture,Nike Jordan 22 CUSTOMIZED ,
We Import&Export&Trading&Retail&sell&buy&distribution& Wholesale Nike
footwear and Nikes Sneakers Jordans Sneakers to this market:
USA,America,US,United States,UK,England,United Kingdom,IT,Italy,
NT,Netherlands,China,Chinese,Germany,DE,Greece,GR,France,
FR,Spain,Portugal,Switzerland,Switzerland,Brazil,Chile,Peru,C
Korea,Australia,Hongkong,Canada,Mexico,Etc
Nike shoes | china nike shoes | air jordan sneakers | cheap gucci
shoes | cheap prada sneakers | gucci sneakers | mix jordan sneakers |
chanel sandals | gucci sandals | dior sandals | wholesale jordan
sneakers | nike running shoes | nike stock shoes | air jordan at
whlesale price | nike shoes air jordan supplier from in china |
Lacoste Trainers | puma trainers | louis vuitton purse | prada purse
|
gucci handbags | chanel purse | coach purse | nike bas kerball shoes
|
Nike Sneakers| cheap nike sneakers | nike shoes from china | nike
replica | copy nike sneakers | nike factory stores | nike stores
Nike wholesale - Nike shoes wholesale
nike jordan sneakers wholesale( www.cheapestsell.com)
We (http: //www.cheapestsell.com)
Wholesale Cheap Jordan
Shoes,Michael
Jordan Shoes,Nike Jordan Basketball shoes, ... Jordan Shoes,Air
Jordan
Sneakers,Air Jordan Wholesale All of the Air Jordan sneakers have
Nike
Air in the shoes.Authentic quality Jordan Sneakers Custom Jordan
Sneakers Wholesale Jordan Sneakers gucci sneakers prada sneakers in
www.cheapestsell.com,lv
chanel coach dior DG DSQUARED2 DIESEL,miumiu handbags
sneakers,shoes,t-
shirts,jeans,jackets.We sale new Nike Sneakers,Air Jordan
Sneakers,AIR
FORCE 1S,Nike Dunks SB,Bape Sta from nike outlets and factory
stores,also Nike wholesale-Jordan Shoes,sneakers! china online store!
Cheap Lacoste Trainers Please,Lacoste Trainers for Women,Lacoste Shoes
Online,Lacoste Shoes for Women,Buy Lacoste Trainers Online,Lacoste
Sneakers(www.cheapestsell.com)
Lacoste Footwear,Black Lacoste Trainers,Lacoste Trinity
Trainers(www.cheapestsell.com)
Lacoste Leisure Shoe, cheap nike dunks,cheap gucci
sneakers(www.cheapestsell.com)
cheap sunglasses factory,wholesale nike tshirts,cheap air jordans
(www.cheapestsell.com)
nike sb china wholesale,cheap puma sneakers,sneaker wholesale
china,jordans sneakers,gucci shirts wholesale,cheap bape trainers,shoe
wholesalers in china,cheap nike sneakers,DISCOUNT nike SNEAKERS,Tennis
Sneakers,gucci Sneakers, Prada Sneakers,Shoes Jordan's +
Wholesale,jordan wholesale manufacturers,nike customes,cheap wholesale
jordans nike,cheap tiffany necklace,gucci shoes shop,Wholesale
Distributor Authentic Nike Shoes,wholesale air forces and
jordans,dsquared manufacturers,dsquared womens shoes,dsquared2
jeans,dsquared2
shoes
ed hardy caps,ed hardy caps cheap,ed hardy for cheap,ed hardy hats
for
cheap
addidas wholesalers distributor(www.cheapestsell.com)
bulk air force ones for sale(www.cheapestsell.com)
Burberry Handbags made in China(www.cheapestsell.com)
BUY ARMANI SHOES(www.cheapestsell.com)
Buy holesale from china GUCCI(www.cheapestsell.com)
buy jordans made in china(www.cheapestsell.com)
buy nike shoes at wholesale price(www.cheapestsell.com)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: authentic nike shoes from nike factory store with cheap price
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/faa22c0392848b32?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 8 2007 7:17 pm
From: wyznike

Cheap Nike Shoes-----------Cheap Nike Trainers
http://www.nike-cheap.com/
Welcome to nike-cheap.com! We offer cheap nike shoes and nike trainers
with free shipping service. Also we do accepted credit card and
Paypal, so there is no fee for you to transfer money and more secure
for you.
http://www.nike-cheap.com/
Now We begin to offer discount when you purchase more cheap nike
shoes, for detail please go to Discount Rate Page.
http://www.nike-cheap.com/
Discount Nike Shoes--------Discount Nike Trainers
http://www.nike-cheap.com/

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Original Nike,Adidas,Puma Sneakers $70 from outlet
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f254c85b6e20d14c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 8 2007 7:20 pm
From: wyznike

www.nike-cheap.com offers Nike Air Max Plus Green New Edition Shoes,
Nike TN, Nike Air Max Plus tn for Sell, Nike Air Max Plus tn Low, Nike
Air Max Plus tn, Nike Air Max tn exclusive, Nike Air Max Plus tn
special edition, burberry nike tn, L.V. Nike TN, Nike TN Dollar, Nike
TN Gucci. We only sell discount and cheap nike tn, Nike Air Max Plus
shoes.
http://www.nike-cheap.com/nike-air-max-plus-tn-white-gold-leather-shoes-p-120.html
Nike Air Max Plus TN White gold Leather shoes is man shoes avaible
from size Euro size 41-46.
http://www.nike-cheap.com/nike-air-max-plus-tn-white-gold-leather-shoes-p-120.html
The Nike Air Max Plus tn, despite being released in over 100
colorways, has some legendary favorites. The first color it was
released in "Hyper Blue" was a huge hit with the US market and foreign
markets. Also, the Orange/Black/Red colorway is a must have even to US
sneakerheads. This colorways was not released in the US most recently
thus making it even more desirable.Nike has tried releasing different
variations of the Nike Tn. Nike Air Max Plus TN has been made in a
slip-on as well as the Air Max Plus TN 2, Air Max TN Plus 3, Air Max
TN Plus 4, and Air Max TN Plus 5, burberry nike tn, L.V. Nike TN, Nike
TN Dollar, Nike TN Gucci.The Nike tn was a huge hit in London and
Europe (especially France), but was not a major hit at home in the
US.
http://www.nike-cheap.com/nike-air-max-plus-tn-white-gold-leather-shoes-p-120.html

==============================================================================
TOPIC: $78 for authentic nike shoes via paypal,credit cards,money bookers
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9d4ceaf1063fb2f9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 8 2007 7:23 pm
From: wyznike

ike Shox-Nike Shox Shoes-Women's Nike Shox-Man's Nike Shox
nike-cheap.com offer Cheap Nike Shox, Discount Nike Shox here with
large stock not only for Women's Nike Shox but also Man's Nike Shox.
http://www.nike-cheap.com/nike-shox-shoes-c-12.html
Nike Shox Classic editions Shoes get here.
http://www.nike-cheap.com/nike-shox-shoes-c-12.html
The Nike Shox shoes(Man's Nike Shox, Women's Nike Shox) were the
product of a sixteen years of research in the Nike Labs. In the fall
of 2000, the Nike Shox system was revealed to the world. Nike unveiled
this top secret line of shoes to the world in 3 models, the Nike Shox
R4 (running shox), Nike Shox BB4 (basketball shox), and the Nike Shox
XTR (cross-training shox).
http://www.nike-cheap.com/nike-shox-shoes-c-12.html
Many Nike Shox Basketball shoes can be found on this page, here is
great spot for finding rare nike shox and limited editions of nike
shox.
http://www.nike-cheap.com/nike-shox-shoes-c-12.html

==============================================================================

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "misc.consumers.frugal-living"
group.

To post to this group, visit http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to misc.consumers.frugal-living-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com

To change the way you get mail from this group, visit:
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/subscribe?hl=en

To report abuse, send email explaining the problem to abuse@googlegroups.com

==============================================================================
Google Groups: http://groups.google.com?hl=en

Frugal Living

Blog Archive

Saturday, September 8, 2007

24 new messages in 12 topics - digest

No comments: