Frugal Living: 25 new messages in 10 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Debit card article in Reader's Digest
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/30646f032f4ff9e6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 7:23 am
From: SMS 斯蒂文* 夏

Greg P wrote:
> On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 23:42:16 -0800, SMS ???* ?
> <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Greg P wrote:
>>
>>> Some experts are not that wise.
>> That's true, but this was not one of those cases. In fact, there are a
>> number of reasons to avoid debit cards at all costs.
>>
>>> I really do not care about the FICO
>>> score anyway's.
>> Right, unless you're getting a mortgage loan, a very high FICO is of
>> little value, but a very high score can get you another 1/8-1/4%
>> discount on the loan rate (many loan brokers will just keep this for
>> themselves, but some will pass it on to the borrower).
>>
>>> I would defend debit cards myself. It some of the
>>> banks that may not follow the regulations. That the problem.
>>> Your are protected in the U.S.
>> The protection is much less than what you get on credit cards.
>>
>>> Myself using a debit cards prevent me from buying stuff that I should
>>> not have. No it is not because the because the banks stops. It
>>> because cash is to tempting and you have no record of what you spend.
>> With a credit card you have a record of what you spend, but you can end
>> up overspending if you're not responsible and spend wildly.
>>
>>> I also check my checking accounts online everyday, sometime more than
>>> one time.
>> Yes, with debit cards, you should check your accounts every day, which
>> is a huge annoyance. With credit cards this isn't necessary.
>>
>>>
>>> Another thing banks could is block foreign transactions like mine
>>> does. Unblock when you are going to make a transaction or travel
>>> outside of your country.
>>>
>>> You can also lower your daily authorization limit.
>>>
>>> if Suze Ormann said there was not any protection for debit cards.
>>> That is total incorrect.
>> She was pointing out the same facts as Reader's Digest, regarding the
>> ability of a dishonest merchant, or a thief, to drain your checking
>> account, with you left to sort out the mess with the bank, plus the
>> other consumer protections that using a credit card gives you, that a
>> debit card does not. Above all, _never_ use a debit card for big-ticket
>> purchases, on-line purchases, or purchases where the card is out of your
>> site (i.e. restaurants).
>>
>>> To answer the question, what would it do to your fico score.
>>> Nothing, unless you have a bank that reports your debit card use to
>>> the credit bureau.
>> That's the whole problem. If you want to increase your FICO score you
>> need to have a good record of repaying debt, something that happens with
>> a credit card but not with a debit card because banks don't report
>> anything to do with debit cards and debt repayment (nothing to report).
>
>
> To check online it is not an annoyance with me. However, you should
> check your credit card every 3 business days.
>
> As for big ticket items. Have you ever tried to claim the good faith
> rule? I have, The card company denied the claim and yes it was a
> legit claim or claimed the never received the paperwork.

Several times. You have to follow up. You have to write them a letter,
not call, explaining the reason for your dispute. It works. I've always
prevailed. It's not just dissatisfaction with the product either. In one
case the merchant intentionally double-billed.

> If you got a low Fico does it really matter? I tried people advice on
> how to raise your score. It does not work.

It matters a great deal if you ever want to get a mortgage loan or other
loan (auto loan). Raising your FICO score is not something you can do in
a short time. It requires a long record of on-time payments to all your
creditors. What's great about credit card use is that it's good for your
FICO score while not costing you anything (as long as you pay in full
each month). In fact, it not only doesn't cost you anything, it can make
you money through cashback rebates, or other rewards programs. For
example, I get 5% back on gasoline purchases, 3% on travel, 2% on
restaurants, and 1% back on everything else. I don't get rich off of
this, but it's about $500 a year that I would otherwise have.

> Here what I do to prevent fraud
>
> Do not use pay at the pump Pay inside. Do not use a self serve
> machine that is unattended. Self Serve DVD, Car Wash or any place
> that takes your card away where you can not see it . Do not use it
> at merchants you do not trust.

Why on earth are you complicating your life like that?

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 7:54 am
From: SMS 斯蒂文* 夏

h wrote:

> What a total nightmare. Why on earth use debit cards? Separate accounts, low
> spending limits, why bother? I've never had a problem with getting my money
> back on a credit card purchase (not received, broken, etc.) and both times
> my info was compromised I had the charges reversed the same day. In fact,
> both times my card info was stolen it happened at a gas station (one in PA,
> one in NJ) which was full serve only, and the guy pumping the gas took my
> card to swipe it. You're completely wrong about most of your "fraud
> prevention" ideas. Self-serve gas stations don't "take your card away", you
> just swipe it and put in back in your wallet. No one sees it. Paying inside
> is often the exact opposite. And PayPal, while very expensive if you use it
> to accept payments, is completely safe for buyers, just like credit cards.

The key with Paypal is to never become "Verified" which means that you
give them direct access to your checking account.

Paypal is not only expensive to accept payments, it isn't all that safe
either. I know someone who sold something on eBay, and months later eBay
sent them a letter saying that the person that purchased their item used
a stolen credit card, and that eBay would be taking the money back out
of their checking account. They moved quickly to close the account
before this could happen. It was surreal. eBay gets its hefty commission
because they are supposed to handle the credit card side of the
transaction. Coming back months later demanding that the seller give
back money that eBay should have never been able to charge to the credit
card in the first place, is unbelievable chutzpah.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How do you cut your utility cost?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/0f775dcaf5b9b909?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 8:05 am
From: "rick++"

Big dogs

== 2 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 8:11 am
From: George

AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
> "Lou" <loupark@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:6b4cf303-14f6-4130-b256-ed6c060ebd37@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>> Can anyone tell me how they actually cut thier utility bills?
>> For instance, I have a shut off valve attatched to my shower
>> head so when it's time to soap up, I don't waste water down the
>> drain. Any other ideas?
>
> you're probably just saving water, but not money. most water companies
> charge per 1000 gallons or any part thereof. so, if you usually use 2000 a
> month and cut back to 1001 gallons, you're still gonna pay for 2000. to
> really see water use drop in this country, there should be a requirement
> that you only pay for what you use, but that would probably entail changing
> out all the water meters since i think they only compute in 1000 gal
> increments.
>
>
They might bill in increments but the meter actually has to record all
flow. So on a continuing basis it works out.

== 3 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 8:20 am
From: "Evelyn C. Leeper"

There is also a minimum charge, and we have never paid more than that.
(But we are only two people. Families with children probably pay more.)

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
I believe I found the missing link between animal
and civilized man. It is us. -Konrad Lorenz

== 4 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 9:08 am
From: Jeff

Lou wrote:
> Can anyone tell me how they actually cut thier utility bills?

Most of my utility bill is heating and AC. It is the same for most
people.

Number one method to cut heating costs is to seal air leaks and add
insulation where it is lacking. Sealing air leaks has a fast payback,
adding insulation may take a couple years.

Changed all lights to CFL and shut them off all but a couple.

Solar heating. I'm heating a couple rooms with only solar as I type.
I'll be upping that shortly. Payback period for home made collectors is
a few years.

Switched all my AC's to Energy Star with a decent EER rating. My old
ACs had an EER of about 8.5 and the new ones are all 10.7+. That's 20%
or so right there. On the old ones the fan ran all the time and on the
new ones it cycles, saving electrity. That will probably take 3 years to
pay pack, but the house is much more comfortable in the mean time.

I've also consolidated the TV and computer monitor so I don't need a
TV running in the background...

Naked DSL has just been offered here, so I will be ditching the land
line. That will turn out to be my biggest instant saving (~$50 moonth).

Jeff

> For instance, I have a shut off valve attatched to my shower
> head so when it's time to soap up, I don't waste water down the
> drain. Any other ideas?
> Lou

== 5 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 9:58 am
From: Seerialmom

On Jan 2, 6:32 am, "AllEmailDeletedImmediately" <der...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> "Lou" <loup...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:6b4cf303-14f6-4130-b256-ed6c060ebd37@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Can anyone tell me how they actually cut thier utility bills?
> > For instance, I have a shut off valve attatched to my shower
> > head so when it's time to soap up, I don't waste water down the
> > drain. Any other ideas?
>
> you're probably just saving water, but not money. most water companies
> charge per 1000 gallons or any part thereof. so, if you usually use 2000 a
> month and cut back to 1001 gallons, you're still gonna pay for 2000. to
> really see water use drop in this country, there should be a requirement
> that you only pay for what you use, but that would probably entail changing
> out all the water meters since i think they only compute in 1000 gal
> increments.

They do? We're supposed to be getting retrofitted water meters here
in Sacramento soon and I've been panicking about it since I've never
had one anywhere I lived before. Technically I should be fine since I
rarely water the lawns (aka weeds), have a HE2 washer and was
conditioned by earlier "droughts" to flush every 3rd tinkle (but never
wait on the #2 loads). Dishwasher is run about once a week when
full. But if they do a default 1K increment measure and not "actual
gallons used"...I won't be saving much at all.

== 6 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 10:08 am
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"clams_casino" <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote in message
news:vRNej.3665$OC1.2350@newsfe20.lga...
> AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
>
>>"Lou" <loupark@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:6b4cf303-14f6-4130-b256-ed6c060ebd37@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>Can anyone tell me how they actually cut thier utility bills?
>>>For instance, I have a shut off valve attatched to my shower
>>>head so when it's time to soap up, I don't waste water down the
>>>drain. Any other ideas?
>>>
>>
>>you're probably just saving water, but not money. most water companies
>>charge per 1000 gallons or any part thereof. so, if you usually use 2000
>>a month and cut back to 1001 gallons, you're still gonna pay for 2000.
>>to really see water use drop in this country, there should be a
>>requirement that you only pay for what you use, but that would probably
>>entail changing out all the water meters since i think they only compute
>>in 1000 gal increments.
>>
>>
> While they do charge in increments, the reading is off a continuous
> reading meter. If you get charged for 2000 when you only used 1500, you
> will not be charged for that extra 500 in the next bill.

not where i lived in sc. there was a lawsuit of some sort about the time
we left and i never found out the outcome. i haven't even looked at the
bill here since i KNOW that in this state, nothing will be done.
>

== 7 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 10:15 am
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"Seerialmom" <seerialmom@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7d309bf1-ba79-4122-9852-90a6ebb41398@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 2, 6:32 am, "AllEmailDeletedImmediately" <der...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> "Lou" <loup...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:6b4cf303-14f6-4130-b256-ed6c060ebd37@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Can anyone tell me how they actually cut thier utility bills?
> > For instance, I have a shut off valve attatched to my shower
> > head so when it's time to soap up, I don't waste water down the
> > drain. Any other ideas?
>
> you're probably just saving water, but not money. most water companies
> charge per 1000 gallons or any part thereof. so, if you usually use 2000 a
> month and cut back to 1001 gallons, you're still gonna pay for 2000. to
> really see water use drop in this country, there should be a requirement
> that you only pay for what you use, but that would probably entail
> changing
> out all the water meters since i think they only compute in 1000 gal
> increments.

well, some replies indicated that they don't pay that way, but we did when
we lived in sc. there was a lawsuit about the time we left and i never
found out the outcome. so maybe in ca, it's different, but at that time, we
were definitely being double billed. my dil's father had a well dug to
provide water for him and the neighbor (his inlaws) out of principle and
only paid whatever the minimum charge was. unfortunately, the water has a
high sulfur content. :(

== 8 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 10:31 am
From: "Evelyn C. Leeper"

Jeff wrote:
> Lou wrote:
>> Can anyone tell me how they actually cut thier utility bills?
>
> Most of my utility bill is heating and AC. It is the same for most
> people.
>
> Number one method to cut heating costs is to seal air leaks and add
> insulation where it is lacking. Sealing air leaks has a fast payback,
> adding insulation may take a couple years.
>
> Changed all lights to CFL and shut them off all but a couple.

It is especially important in the summer to avoid turning on more lights
and heavy motors, since they will heat up the house and make the A/C
work harder.

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
I believe I found the missing link between animal
and civilized man. It is us. -Konrad Lorenz

==============================================================================
TOPIC: $10 to $50,000? Who knows but I'm trying it.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/7916b04c8e6954b8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 8:13 am
From: Prepress Film

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The Letter
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=====================================================================================
End Of Letter
Free Copy write 2007 Page 8
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Free Copy write 2007 Page 9
Keys to Success:

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Overbearing, due to the EXTREME AMOUNT of e-mails you can receive.
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capacity
and tolerance to receive such massive amounts of daily e-mails.

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: cheap AK APE CHL EVS ed hardy D&G DG BBC AF LRG POLO COACH lv ggg
handbags Wholesale $29.99
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/de7fb37a47b6a988?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 8:39 am
From: yuwenwu001@gmail.com

http://www.silkonroad.com/index/news.asp
http://www.silkonroad.com/index/faq.asp
http://www.silkonroad.com/index/Payment.asp
http://www.silkonroad.com/index/Shipment.asp
http://www.silkonroad.com/index/register.asp

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Ron Paul Excluded from Fox Debate!!!!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3918ae36206dbc90?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 8:43 am
From: "Bill"

Seems TV is deciding which candidates we see on the tube...

Ron Paul Excluded from Fox Debate...
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/01/ron_paul_excluded_from_fox_debate/

== 2 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 8:55 am
From: "John A. Weeks III"

In article <5u1t9jF1g9danU1@mid.individual.net>,
"Bill" <billnomailnospamx@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Seems TV is deciding which candidates we see on the tube...
>
> Ron Paul Excluded from Fox Debate...
> http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/01/ron_paul_excluded_from_fox_d
> ebate/

Of course TV has to make a decision. They cannot have a debate
with 50 or 70 candidates at one time. So, they have to set
some kind of guideline or standard. They picked 10%. Ron
Paul is only polling at 3%. Now then, you can argue what
the standard should be. In fact, I think 10% is too high.
I'd advocate 5%. That, however, still leaves a minor candidate
like Ron Paul out of the mix. The bottom line is if Ron Paul
wants to be in the top tier of candidates, he needs to go out
and round up a little more support from the potential voters.

-john-

--
======================================================================
John A. Weeks III 612-720-2854 john@johnweeks.com
Newave Communications

http://www.johnweeks.com

======================================================================

== 3 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 9:18 am
From: spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)

In article <5u1t9jF1g9danU1@mid.individual.net>, "Bill" <billnomailnospamx@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Seems TV is deciding which candidates we see on the tube...
>
>Ron Paul Excluded from Fox Debate...

So what? They have to draw the line somewhere -- they can't include everybody.
And right now, Ron Paul is polling behind Undecided.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

== 4 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 9:58 am
From: Elmo

Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <5u1t9jF1g9danU1@mid.individual.net>, "Bill" <billnomailnospamx@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Seems TV is deciding which candidates we see on the tube...
>>
>> Ron Paul Excluded from Fox Debate...
>
> So what? They have to draw the line somewhere -- they can't include everybody.
> And right now, Ron Paul is polling behind Undecided.
>
And ahead of several of the people they included.
He also has raised more money than several of the people they included.
(Or so I was told by the fervant Ron Paul supporter who is a few doors down from here.)

I think that there's a hidden rule that in order to be a "valid" contender, your name can't be Ron Paul.

And not just on Faux News either.
Ms. Katie ("I'm just WONderful") Couric read a new item which noted Ron Paul's record-setting day of raising money (Tea Party Day) and immediately went into a segment where she asked the same question of all the candidates from both parties. Only Ron Paul wasn't included, and Mike Gravel wasn't included, and several others from both parties were not included.

Maybe the rule is that if you don't weasel, waffle, shilly, shally, shimmy, shake or spin, then you can't be a serious contender.

--
"The career politicians are keeping the elevator at the penthouse
floor and not sending it down for the rest of us." - Kinky Friedman

== 5 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 10:05 am
From: spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)

In article <flgjbh$1702$1@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>, Elmo <ElmoHateSpam@noSpam4U.org> wrote:
>Doug Miller wrote:
>> In article <5u1t9jF1g9danU1@mid.individual.net>, "Bill"
> <billnomailnospamx@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Seems TV is deciding which candidates we see on the tube...
>>>
>>> Ron Paul Excluded from Fox Debate...
>>
>> So what? They have to draw the line somewhere -- they can't include everybody.
>> And right now, Ron Paul is polling behind Undecided.
>>
>And ahead of several of the people they included.

Which ones would those be?

>He also has raised more money than several of the people they included.

Which ones would those be?

>(Or so I was told by the fervant Ron Paul supporter who is a few doors down
> from here.)

Not exactly an unbiased source, that.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

== 6 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 10:18 am
From: Bert Hyman

spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote in
news:DJPej.2810$se5.1285@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com:

> In article <5u1t9jF1g9danU1@mid.individual.net>, "Bill"
> <billnomailnospamx@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>Seems TV is deciding which candidates we see on the tube...
>>
>>Ron Paul Excluded from Fox Debate...
>
> So what? They have to draw the line somewhere -- they can't include
> everybody. And right now, Ron Paul is polling behind Undecided.

Wait a minute... Somebody will be right along to tell us that the
polls are rigged.

--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN | bert@iphouse.com

== 7 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 10:28 am
From: "Dave"

>
> Maybe the rule is that if you don't weasel, waffle, shilly, shally,
> shimmy, shake or spin, then you can't be a serious contender.
>

You're close. If you don't weasel, waffle, shilly, shally, shimmy, shake or
spin, then you aren't newsworthy. If you aren't newsworthy, then you can't
increase ratings. Thus you can't be included in any debate. -Dave

== 8 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 10:34 am
From: Ann

On Wed, 02 Jan 2008 08:43:23 -0800, Bill wrote:

> Seems TV is deciding which candidates we see on the tube...

"Since the 1970s, debates have also been considered on-the-spot news
events and therefore exempt from the [FCC] equal time law. This has
enabled stations or other parties arranging the debates to choose which
candidates to include in a debate."

> Ron Paul Excluded from Fox Debate...
> http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/01/ron_paul_excluded_from_fox_debate/

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 9:40 am
From: Dennis

On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 19:50:56 -0800, SMS ???* ?
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>The Real Bev wrote:
>>
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>
>Me neither. I have them programmed into my contact list.

A curse of the modern age. I used to be able to recall a large list
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--
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== 1 of 1 ==
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 10:39 am
From: George

imascot wrote:
> I have complained to Altopia.com, the news server this individual is using. Please join me and copy
> just one of his messages, showing full headers, to abuse@altopia.com What I wrote was:
>

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