Frugal Living: 24 new messages in 14 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

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TOPIC: Is Buying A Hybrid Really Smart??
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/fbeb9906bdd8972d?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 18 2008 11:47 am
From: y_p_w

Sharon wrote:

> So for me at least, there was no price premium on the Prius, but my
> fuel savings are very clear. Oh, and repair track records over the 8 years
> that Prius has been in the U.S. is equable to any other car. Yes, the hybrid
> battery is expensive to replace, but it lasts the life of the car except for
> occasional isolated problems.

Maybe around $4000. I've seen a few used ones (pulled from totaled
cars) on eBay for under $1000. I'd expect that in the future we'll
see reconditioned packs that might be useful for extracting a few
years of use. There might also be aftermarket versions or just cells
that are installed in the battery module.

At least in California (where the battery is considered an emissions
control device) the warranty is 10 years or 150,000 miles.

The battery will likely last a long time given the way the charging
system keeps it away from being fully charged or fully depleted. I
wonder about the plug-in hybrid proponents. That'll require a larger
battery and likely need to tap into the limits of battery capacity.
I'd expect that kind of use would require battery changes every two to
three years.

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TOPIC: comments from canandians, pls: canadian health care
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/190b5f62e6acf0e1?hl=en
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== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 18 2008 11:52 am
From: "123" <123@tgy.com>

AllEmailDeletedImmediately <derjda@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Don Klipstein" <don@manx.misty.com> wrote in message
> news:slrnftuh49.an9.don@manx.misty.com...
>> In article <MzGDj.69$XB6.14@newsfe06.lga>, The Real Bev wrote:
>>> Bill Bowden wrote:
>>>
>>>> Actually, lower income Americans don't pay any taxes, the upper
>>>> incomes pay most of the tax. People in the lower incomes of less
>>>> than $30K pay little or no tax. And if they have a family, they may
>>>> actually get a refund greater than the tax paid due to the earned
>>>> income credit. Most people pay little or nothing in federal income
>>>> tax.
>>>
>>> BUT they still have to pay Social Security, and if they're
>>> self-employed (handymen, for instance) they have to pay the
>>> employer's share too.
>>
>> Along with state income taxes, and local income taxes in most of
>> many population center metropolitan areas, and property taxes (which
>> are part of rent payments paid by tenants). Further along with
>> state sales taxes, and furthermore in some big cities municipal
>> sales taxes! Add to that telephone taxes and after that taxes on
>> other utility services - especially electricity!

> i read somewhere that in the usa, our actual tax rate is closer to 80/85% when all these little taxes are figured in.

Usual mindless lie.

> i'm thinking it's the top tier tax rate.

What is ?

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 18 2008 3:38 pm
From: don@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein)

In article <YLSDj.41291$f8.1840@newsfe23.lga>, clams_casino wrote:
>AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
>
>>"Don Klipstein" <don@manx.misty.com> wrote in message
>>news:slrnftuh49.an9.don@manx.misty.com...
>>
>>>In article <MzGDj.69$XB6.14@newsfe06.lga>, The Real Bev wrote:
>>>
>>>>Bill Bowden wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Actually, lower income Americans don't pay any taxes, the upper
>>>>>incomes pay most of the tax. People in the lower incomes of less than
>>>>>$30K pay little or no tax. And if they have a family, they may
>>>>>actually get a refund greater than the tax paid due to the earned
>>>>>income credit. Most people pay little or nothing in federal income
>>>>>tax.
>>>>>
>>>>BUT they still have to pay Social Security, and if they're self-employed
>>>>(handymen, for instance) they have to pay the employer's share too.
>>>>
>>> Along with state income taxes, and local income taxes in most of many
>>>population center metropolitan areas, and property taxes (which are part
>>>of rent payments paid by tenants). Further along with state sales taxes,
>>>and furthermore in some big cities municipal sales taxes! Add to that
>>>telephone taxes and after that taxes on other utility services -
>>>especially electricity!
>>
>>i read somewhere that in the usa, our actual tax rate is closer to 80/85%
>>when all these
>>little taxes are figured in. i'm thinking it's the top tier tax rate.
>>
>Actually it's closer to 30% where most everyone pays between 28-32%.
>Contrary to what you might believe (or are often times lead to believe),
>the wealthy tend to be on the lower end of that range. Granted, the
>wealthy typically pay more in income taxes, but the lower income groups
>tends to pay a high percentage of their income in FICA, sales taxes,
>excise taxes etc.

I think 28-32% is rather optimistic. I remember "Tax Freedon Day"
usually being sometime in May. That day divides the year into portions
of size that represent taxes and what you have after paying taxes. It
represents when you stop working for taxes and start working for yourself.
It appears to me that this does not include employer share of FICA, but
only taxes taken out of "nominal gross pay" or paid on basis other than
income (such as property taxes and sales taxes).

And there is some truth to really high income people paying a lower
percentage. Income past a certain amount is not subject to FICA (but then
again SS benefits are determined by FICA taxable portion of your income).
Wealthy high income people have more of their income being from long term
capital gains and "qualified dividends", which are taxed at a lower rate.
And it is mainly the haves that have tax free bonds, tax free dond fund
investments, and money in tax free money market funds. Warren Buffet says
he pays a smaller percentage of his income in taxes than his secretary
does.
There is a frequently-cited study saying what percentage of taxes and
what percentage of income are from the top whatever %, but it has a flaw
of underestimating the income in top income groups by only knowing the tax
amounts and assuming the tax is imposed at the rate for wages, salaries
and tips.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 18 2008 3:40 pm
From: don@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein)

In article <wNSDj.41292$f8.1989@newsfe23.lga>, clams_casino wrote:
>Bill Bowden wrote:
>
>>Actually, lower income Americans don't pay any taxes
>
>Hmm - how does one get to avoid FICA, sales, excise & property taxes?
>
>Neat trick. Care to share?

And most states have state income taxes, and now most municipalities
have income or wage taxes.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 18 2008 3:46 pm
From: Dennis

On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 13:16:13 -0400, clams_casino
<PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:

>Bill Bowden wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Actually, lower income Americans don't pay any taxes
>>
>
>Hmm - how does one get to avoid FICA, sales, excise & property taxes?
>
>Neat trick. Care to share?

FICA is easy enough - just don't have any earned income.

Likewise, to avoid sales tax spend in a state that doesn't have such a
thing.

Excise and property taxes might be harder to avoid paying, at least
indirectly.

Dennis (evil)
--
My output is down, my income is up, I take a short position on the long bond and
my revenue stream has its own cash flow. -George Carlin

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 18 2008 5:51 pm
From: George Grapman

Don Klipstein wrote:
> In article <wNSDj.41292$f8.1989@newsfe23.lga>, clams_casino wrote:
>> Bill Bowden wrote:
>>
>>> Actually, lower income Americans don't pay any taxes
>> Hmm - how does one get to avoid FICA, sales, excise & property taxes?
>>
>> Neat trick. Care to share?
>
> And most states have state income taxes, and now most municipalities
> have income or wage taxes.
>
> - Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

The only city I ever worked in that had an income tax was New York but
many cities, including San Francisco, levy a payroll tax on employers.

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 18 2008 5:59 pm
From: George Grapman

Dennis wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 13:16:13 -0400, clams_casino
> <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>
>> Bill Bowden wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Actually, lower income Americans don't pay any taxes
>>>
>> Hmm - how does one get to avoid FICA, sales, excise & property taxes?
>>
>> Neat trick. Care to share?
>
> FICA is easy enough - just don't have any earned income.

A few problems with that:

You lose the Social Security and Medicare safety nets.
Ir you lose an off the books job you can not collect unemployment
insurance. Also, is you are injured on the job forget about workers comp
of,for that matter, suing the employer. Actually you can sue but you
will have to go after the company as their insurance will not cover an
off the books worker.
Also you need to keep a low profile. If a financial institution shows
you earning interest on regular deposits the IRS may want to look into
it. Likewise they check DMV records so you might consider driving an
older car.
>
> Likewise, to avoid sales tax spend in a state that doesn't have such a
> thing.

Easy if you live near another state. Herder when, as in my case, the
nearest state line is about 200 miles away.
>
> Excise and property taxes might be harder to avoid paying, at least
> indirectly.
>
> Dennis (evil)

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TOPIC: How much is your electric bill?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/474b552ab22ee28c?hl=en
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== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 18 2008 12:32 pm
From: Paul M. Eldridge

On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:23:39 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton
<angelicapaganelli@hotmail.com> wrote:

>The house is surrounded by shade trees, and there's a good deal of attic
>insulation (although I'm sure that we--like most people--could use more).
>
>I don't think simply replacing the sheetrock would be much help. If I were
>to go to that trouble, I could fur out the walls with 2x4's and insulate
>the cavity. I don't think I'd want to go more than 2x4, or I'd lose too
>much square footage. You'd think an inch or two wouldn't matter, but
>there are places where it might make it tricky to get between pieces
>of furniture.
>
>Overall, I'm satisfied with my energy efficiency. Otherwise, I'd do
>something about it.
>
>Cindy Hamilton

Hi Cindy,

One and a half inches of Styrofoam insulation would provide you with
an additional R7.5 and assuming your un-insulated walls are
effectively R2.5 now, would cut your heat loss by 75%, plus make the
living space more comfortable. Even a modest half-inch of foam
insulation would theoretically cut your wall losses by half.

I bumped my home's wall insulation from R6 to R22.5 and although I
lost 1.5 inches of room depth I have no regrets. Fuel oil costs have
more than doubled in the past five years and I wouldn't be surprised
if they were to double again over the course of the next five.

I figure there are five things I gained from doing this work: 1)
ongoing financial savings (at current rates, about $0.70 per sq. ft.,
per year), 2) added comfort (I no longer feel as if the heat is being
sucked out of my body), 3) potentially higher resale value (all else
being equal, a more energy efficient home will be more desirable,
especially in an era of rapidly rising utility costs), 4) additional
thermal protection in the event of an extended power cut or equipment
breakdown (it could be the difference between riding out in relative
comfort or dealing with a burst water pipe) and, most importantly, 5)
the peace of mind of knowing I'm better protected from any future
increase in energy costs (i.e., that, hopefully, I will continue to
live comfortably and that I won't be forced out of my home because I
can no longer afford to maintain it).

Cheers,
Paul

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 18 2008 2:24 pm
From: Jeff

Paul M. Eldridge wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:23:39 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton
> <angelicapaganelli@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The house is surrounded by shade trees, and there's a good deal of attic
>> insulation (although I'm sure that we--like most people--could use more).
>>
>> I don't think simply replacing the sheetrock would be much help. If I were
>> to go to that trouble, I could fur out the walls with 2x4's and insulate
>> the cavity. I don't think I'd want to go more than 2x4, or I'd lose too
>> much square footage. You'd think an inch or two wouldn't matter, but
>> there are places where it might make it tricky to get between pieces
>> of furniture.
>>
>> Overall, I'm satisfied with my energy efficiency. Otherwise, I'd do
>> something about it.
>>
>> Cindy Hamilton
>
> Hi Cindy,
>
> One and a half inches of Styrofoam insulation would provide you with
> an additional R7.5 and assuming your un-insulated walls are
> effectively R2.5 now, would cut your heat loss by 75%, plus make the
> living space more comfortable. Even a modest half-inch of foam
> insulation would theoretically cut your wall losses by half.
>
> I bumped my home's wall insulation from R6 to R22.5 and although I
> lost 1.5 inches of room depth I have no regrets.

How did you get from R6 to R22.5 that sounds like 3" or so. What did you
do with the windows?

I like Paul's idea, although fiberglass wall batts are cheap, you
probably wouldn't need the 2x4's and that by itself would lower cost,
ease installation and remove the thermal break caused by the 2x4's.
Since you are going against a block wall, I think you might have some
moisture problems with the fiberglass that the styrofoam would ignore.
Damp fiberglass insulates poorly.

I've been on a bit of a crusade about insulating walls since I've
felt the results. Rooms are just more comfortable. If you have a hot or
a cold wall you can feel it. Thermal radiation is related to the surface
area and the 4th power of the temp difference. Many people only consider
air temp, and that is a mistake.

Now, I don't think Cindy's bills are bad, and if her walls are skim
coated with plaster rather just being sheetrock, I would be very
hesitant to redo that. Plaster just has a different look to it than
sheetrock. At least I like the way plaster walls look.

Fuel oil costs have
> more than doubled in the past five years and I wouldn't be surprised
> if they were to double again over the course of the next five.
>
> I figure there are five things I gained from doing this work: 1)
> ongoing financial savings (at current rates, about $0.70 per sq. ft.,
> per year), 2) added comfort (I no longer feel as if the heat is being
> sucked out of my body), 3) potentially higher resale value (all else
> being equal, a more energy efficient home will be more desirable,
> especially in an era of rapidly rising utility costs), 4) additional
> thermal protection in the event of an extended power cut or equipment
> breakdown (it could be the difference between riding out in relative
> comfort or dealing with a burst water pipe) and, most importantly,

Insulating makes a big difference in smoothing out the temperature
variations. I've been using the days heat to carry me through the night
and I never could do that before. With the uninsulated walls it seemed
like as soon as the heat was off, the room was cooling, and in a few
hours it was like there had never been any heat! It's the same effect in
the summer where the room stays cooler even without the AC on.

Cindy sounds like she's all right with slowing heat gain by being
shady. I don't know how much the insulted drapes help though, unless
they are tightly fit. Light colored might help.

Jeff

5)
> the peace of mind of knowing I'm better protected from any future
> increase in energy costs (i.e., that, hopefully, I will continue to
> live comfortably and that I won't be forced out of my home because I
> can no longer afford to maintain it).
>
> Cheers,
> Paul

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 18 2008 5:44 pm
From: Paul M. Eldridge

On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:24:50 -0400, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:

>>Paul M. Eldridge wrote:

>> I bumped my home's wall insulation from R6 to R22.5 and although I
>> lost 1.5 inches of room depth I have no regrets.
>
>How did you get from R6 to R22.5 that sounds like 3" or so. What did you
>do with the windows?

Hi Jeff,

I inserted a half-inch of Styrofoam (R3) inside the wall cavity and
caulked the outside edges to make it airtight. I then added three and
half-inches of fibreglass insulation (R12), a six mill polyethylene
vapour barrier and an additional inch and a half of foam (R7.5) on top
as shown here:

http://server3.pictiger.com/img/287586/other/bedroom---bare-wall.php
http://server3.pictiger.com/img/287587/other/bedroom---caulked-%26-half-inch-foam.php
http://server3.pictiger.com/img/287588/other/bedroom---fibreglass-%26-one-%26-half-inch-foam.php
http://server3.pictiger.com/img/287589/other/bedroom---final-taping.php

> I like Paul's idea, although fiberglass wall batts are cheap, you
>probably wouldn't need the 2x4's and that by itself would lower cost,
>ease installation and remove the thermal break caused by the 2x4's.
>Since you are going against a block wall, I think you might have some
>moisture problems with the fiberglass that the styrofoam would ignore.
>Damp fiberglass insulates poorly.

Absolutely true. Insulation has to remain dry to be effective. In
addition, the thermal performance of fibreglass insulation falls off
rather dramatically at colder temperatures whereas that of Styrofoam
remains fairly consistent.

> I've been on a bit of a crusade about insulating walls since I've
>felt the results. Rooms are just more comfortable. If you have a hot or
>a cold wall you can feel it. Thermal radiation is related to the surface
>area and the 4th power of the temp difference. Many people only consider
>air temp, and that is a mistake.

A simple test would be to hold a small piece of Styrofoam against an
exterior wall. With one hand holding it steady, press the other hand
on the surface of the Styofoam and hold it there for a minute or so,
then place this same hand in direct contact with the wall and feel the
difference.

> Now, I don't think Cindy's bills are bad, and if her walls are skim
>coated with plaster rather just being sheetrock, I would be very
>hesitant to redo that. Plaster just has a different look to it than
>sheetrock. At least I like the way plaster walls look.

I agree. My previous home had plaster walls and detailed cove
mouldings and so I left them as is. I wasn't altogether happy with my
decision, but I believe it was the right call.

> Insulating makes a big difference in smoothing out the temperature
>variations. I've been using the days heat to carry me through the night
>and I never could do that before. With the uninsulated walls it seemed
>like as soon as the heat was off, the room was cooling, and in a few
>hours it was like there had never been any heat! It's the same effect in
>the summer where the room stays cooler even without the AC on.

That's been my experience as well. When the winds are blowing 70 and
80 kph (as they have been here these past couple days) and when
temperatures drop to -25C and you've lost power, you want all the help
you can get and likely a whole lot more.

Cheers,
Paul

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Is it fraud or thinking ahead?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e2dd240757c24097?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 18 2008 12:59 pm
From: timeOday

George Grapman wrote:
> Seerialmom wrote:
>> Ok...so yesterday someone I know said their family was moving into a
>> new house (not brand new..but newer than where they are now). When
>> asked if they had sold their current house or if they were going to
>> rent it out; this person disclosed that they were still current on the
>> house payment where they are now....but once they move into the other
>> house they're buying the old house would eventually go into
>> foreclosure. Aside from the major "ding" on the credit rating for the
>> next 7 years....I'm still trying to figure out if this was smart
>> planning on their part or just outright fraud? At the least maybe
>> unethical? Just curious if anyone had heard of doing this before?
>
>
> If the foreclosure and ensuing sale does not cover the amount owed on
> the house the lender can go after other assets such as the new house.

But they will have (virtually) no equity in the new home for years.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 18 2008 1:24 pm
From: George Grapman

timeOday wrote:
> George Grapman wrote:
>> Seerialmom wrote:
>>> Ok...so yesterday someone I know said their family was moving into a
>>> new house (not brand new..but newer than where they are now). When
>>> asked if they had sold their current house or if they were going to
>>> rent it out; this person disclosed that they were still current on the
>>> house payment where they are now....but once they move into the other
>>> house they're buying the old house would eventually go into
>>> foreclosure. Aside from the major "ding" on the credit rating for the
>>> next 7 years....I'm still trying to figure out if this was smart
>>> planning on their part or just outright fraud? At the least maybe
>>> unethical? Just curious if anyone had heard of doing this before?
>>
>> If the foreclosure and ensuing sale does not cover the amount owed on
>> the house the lender can go after other assets such as the new house.
>
> But they will have (virtually) no equity in the new home for years.

I have to correct myself. On Sunday the San Francisco Chronicle noted
that under California law if you walk away from a mortgage the lender
has no recourse. They will have a lower credit score but if they kept
current on their other debts that might get a new loan in a few years.
By the way, a mortgage broker told me that this immunity applies only
to a first mortgage but not a second.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/16/MNFFVI036.DTL&hw=walk+away&sn=002&sc=778

In California, purchase mortgages on residences are "nonrecourse," which
means lenders cannot pursue foreclosed homeowners for additional money.

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TOPIC: Recipe for those who are in diet
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/7fffbae24b75ff04?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 18 2008 1:17 pm
From: clams_casino

Santhosh1992 wrote:

>This recipe is for those are in diet.
>

Cool. Got any good BBQ recipes for beef?

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TOPIC: Free People Search
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/104a9eae443258c9?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 18 2008 1:38 pm
From: Al Bundy

On Mar 18, 12:47 pm, svosze6oxx2pw0thg...@gmail.com wrote:
> This site is pretty good. It allows you to conduct a people search
> for free.
>

I think it's boooooogus folks.
You have to sign up with information.
I go to a bunch of sites that don't require any sign up and they
provide much information free.

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TOPIC: hii am geethu
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d9dd0fb3f11c9a86?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 18 2008 1:43 pm
From: Al Bundy

On Mar 18, 1:29 am, vish <bavanikuma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> hii am geethu
> you chatting with me
*
> sometimeswe thinkof whyfriendskeep
> forwardingmail to us
> with out writing asingle word...........
> maybe thiscouldexplainwhy...........

My guess is because their mail is encrypted in a special language
called English.

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TOPIC: Saving Money on Drugs (Free Samples Aren't Really Free)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9631815b7c86e5ac?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 18 2008 1:54 pm
From: Al Bundy

On Mar 17, 4:42 pm, "Evelyn C. Leeper" <elee...@optonline.net> wrote:
> We all know that generic drugs are cheaper than brand-name. And we all
> think that getting free samples from the doctor is cheaper yet. But it
> isn't.
>
> The samples that the doctors get to give out are pretty much only for
> those drugs that have no generics. So if you are diagnosed with
> condition X that requires a maintenance drug, and the doctor says,
> "Let's try drug Q; here's a month's worth of free samples," what happens
> at the end of the month? If drug Q works, he or she will prescribe drug
> Q--and it's available only as a name-brand. (That's why the drug
> company gives out the samples.)
>
> On the other hand, if you say up front that you want to try a generic
> first, you will have to pay for the first month's supply. but if it
> works, the on-going prescription will be for the (much cheaper) generic.
>
> --
> Evelyn C. Leeper
> Heretic: someone who disagrees with you about
> something neither of you knows anything about.

True enough, but not always possible. The new drug may offer symptom
control not proven with the generic. In other cases you might switch
to a generic of the same class if the free one worked. Of course, who
is not resistant to changing something that works. That's the way
marketing works. And if the new drug doesn't help, you spent nothing.
For routine stuff like infections, reflux, and high BP, generics often
prove as effective.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 18 2008 2:36 pm
From: "Evelyn C. Leeper"

Al Bundy wrote:
> On Mar 17, 4:42 pm, "Evelyn C. Leeper" <elee...@optonline.net> wrote:
>> We all know that generic drugs are cheaper than brand-name. And we all
>> think that getting free samples from the doctor is cheaper yet. But it
>> isn't.
>>
>> The samples that the doctors get to give out are pretty much only for
>> those drugs that have no generics. So if you are diagnosed with
>> condition X that requires a maintenance drug, and the doctor says,
>> "Let's try drug Q; here's a month's worth of free samples," what happens
>> at the end of the month? If drug Q works, he or she will prescribe drug
>> Q--and it's available only as a name-brand. (That's why the drug
>> company gives out the samples.)
>>
>> On the other hand, if you say up front that you want to try a generic
>> first, you will have to pay for the first month's supply. but if it
>> works, the on-going prescription will be for the (much cheaper) generic.
>>
>> --
>> Evelyn C. Leeper
>> Heretic: someone who disagrees with you about
>> something neither of you knows anything about.
>
> True enough, but not always possible. The new drug may offer symptom
> control not proven with the generic. In other cases you might switch
> to a generic of the same class if the free one worked. Of course, who
> is not resistant to changing something that works. That's the way
> marketing works. And if the new drug doesn't help, you spent nothing.
> For routine stuff like infections, reflux, and high BP, generics often
> prove as effective.

Well, yes, sometimes one needs the new drug. But my point was that if
you have something requiring a maintenance drug, starting with something
with no available generic will just mean continuing with that brand
name, even though the first month is free. Assuming the doctor has no
specific reason to prescribe something *other* than a generic, most
people will be better off starting with a generic.

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
Heretic: someone who disagrees with you about
something neither of you knows anything about.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: My Sneakers Stink SO Bad NOw. Tried everything, and too comfy to throw
away
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/52e3d47a291e8865?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 18 2008 2:10 pm
From: Al Bundy

On Mar 17, 10:40 am, Pauly <paul...@charter.net> wrote:
> I have these Puma Basket sneakers that are five years old, and I
> always wear them without socks (I hate wearing socks) and for the past
> 2 years, they really began to smell very bad, and smell up the whole
> house. I tried everything such as rotating my sneakers, putting
> deodorant on my feet, spraying foot odor spray in my sneakers and
> letting the spray take care of the odor, I even tried setting them
> outside in the cold air, and letting them air out for the night. BUt
> every time I take them off my feet they smell very bad. I do not want
> to throw these sneakers away or get rid of them because they are so
> comfortable, but is there any remedies to get rid of the odor, or
> should I throw these sneakers away, which I hate to do.
>
> These sneakers has canvas insoles, and the sneakers are still in good
> shape; therefore I do not want to throw these away. THey ksut smell
> bad. ANy Ideas?

I suspect you will have to put up with it or try different sneakers.
One thing I have noticed is that certain material seems to breed the
bacteria and mold that causes a stink. Other material can be used over
and over again without smelling. Sorry that I don't know the chemistry
involved enough to select the right one. I never have a problem with
stinky shoes. That may be because I buy quality apparel and wear them
out within a few months. You may be wearing a cheap pair of Chinese
fake shoes made with questionable material. How somebody can wear a
pair of shoes for five years is quite amazing unless they are
infrequently used.
Try washing those shoes and include some bleach in the wash water.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: wholesale tshirt tshirt tshirt tshirt tshirt tshirt tshirt tshirt
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8e36ca7ef6c2d7a6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 18 2008 2:14 pm
From: shoe

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Bush not smirking anymore!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/720424d4d4021e06?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 18 2008 2:50 pm
From: Jeff

Bill wrote:
> Saw Bush on TV the last few nights and he is not smirking anymore!
>
> Is it that he and his greedy buddies are having a bit of financial trouble
> lately?

Well, the oil boys are doing extremely well.

The rest of the fat cats have been mighty pleased with their tax
cuts, and certainly corporate profits have been the primary recipient of
any economic good news there has been.

But, if you are rich and have been riding the derivative markets to
greater wealth, the last few months have been a shock. Since all this is
leveraged it's easily possible to lose the value of your investment. And
what with the value of the collateral dwindling, their lenders have been
making margin calls or refusing to renew short term loans.

That is why the Fed bailed out Bear Sterns. If you fire sale Bear
Sterns assets, you have to mark to market all the collateral the other
fat cats have put up. That could have resulted in widespread margin
calls and a real panic in the "have more" set.

Just how confident would you be that everything is going to turn out
well?

There's a great deal of uncertainty, no one knows the level of risk
they have, and it's not exactly like the leader of the free world has a
great track record. It's all being propped up with cheap money (notice
the big rally when the FED dropped rates 3/4 point) and a plummeting dollar.

What shoe will drop next? What does the FED do when the discount rate
hits zero?

Jeff
>
> Before all this, Bush was at a meeting of his rich friends saying...
> "This is an impressive crowd - the haves and have mores"
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mn4daYJzyls
>
> I think some of them are in the "have less" category now...
>
>

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 18 2008 3:40 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote
> Bill wrote

>> Saw Bush on TV the last few nights and he is not smirking anymore!

>> Is it that he and his greedy buddies are having a bit of financial trouble lately?

> Well, the oil boys are doing extremely well.

Nope, the main effect on the oil price is just the dollar sagging.

It hasnt done anything like that in euro terms.

> The rest of the fat cats have been mighty pleased with their tax cuts,

Nope, the worst of them avoid paying any tax at all with offshore arrangements.

> and certainly corporate profits have been the primary recipient of any economic good news there has been.

Pity there have been fuck all real corporate profits.

> But, if you are rich and have been riding the derivative markets to greater wealth, the last few months have been a
> shock.

And it aint just the derivative markets either.

> Since all this is leveraged it's easily possible to lose the value of your investment.

And lose a lot more than that too.

> And what with the value of the collateral dwindling, their lenders have been making margin calls or refusing to renew
> short term loans.

> That is why the Fed bailed out Bear Sterns.

Nope.

> If you fire sale Bear Sterns assets, you have to mark to market all the collateral the other fat cats have put up.

Nope.

> That could have resulted in widespread margin calls and a real panic in the "have more" set.

Wrong.

> Just how confident would you be that everything is going to turn out well?

Yep, with operations of the size of Bear Stearns going down
so spectacularly, only a fool would be confident currently.

Which might just be why so many pulled out of Bear Stearns while they could.

> There's a great deal of uncertainty, no one knows the level of risk
> they have, and it's not exactly like the leader of the free world has
> a great track record. It's all being propped up with cheap money

Nope.

> (notice the big rally when the FED dropped rates 3/4 point)

That doesnt make it cheap money. In spades when there is a
liquidity crunch, that interest rate is an entirely separate matter
to whether you can get anyone to lend you anything at any rate.

> and a plummeting dollar.

Thats not propping anything up.

> What shoe will drop next? What does the FED do when the discount rate hits zero?

What the japs did when theirs did.

>> Before all this, Bush was at a meeting of his rich friends saying...
>> "This is an impressive crowd - the haves and have mores"
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mn4daYJzyls
>
>> I think some of them are in the "have less" category now...

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e565eaf98e0e70b6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 18 2008 3:43 pm
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

Donna Ohl wrote:
>
> On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:40:03 -0400, mm wrote:
>
> > If the water isn't hot enough, and one accidentally halfway fills a
> > tub with mixed water that isn't hot enough, the hot water isn't hot
> > enough to make the tub warm enough.
>
> Oh. Good point. The way I have it set right now, the water is 120 degrees
> (at the set point anyway) which is just right at the shower or tub. I'm
> assuming (I didn't measure it) it's just above 100 degrees at the shower
> since I know 104 degrees is too hot in a hot tub or me but anything below
> 104 degrees is just right.
>
> Is it normal to lose about 20 degrees in moving from the hot water heater
> to the shower?

If you can get to the pipe, add some of the molded foam pipe
insulation to reduce the heat loss, and the cost of using the water
heater.

--
aioe.org is home to cowards and terrorists

Add this line to your news proxy nfilter.dat file
* drop Path:*aioe.org!not-for-mail to drop all aioe.org traffic.

http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Jobs Available for different Categories - www.vacancies4all.com
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/70ddc3de8e34ea83?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 18 2008 3:47 pm
From: "joanna256@googlemail.com"

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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ff96bd890dc8a91e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
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Tuesday, March 18, 2008

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