Frugal Living

frugal living

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: "Are Teachers Overpaid?" by Mr. Tamim Ansary
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/bc0959f836a427e3?hl=en
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== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 23 2008 10:53 pm
From: "Simon" <192900@spam.com>

terryc <newssixspam-spam@woa.com.au> wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 20:32:38 -0700, The Real Bev wrote:
>
>> It's the job of the educational system to educate ALL of the
>> children, not just the ones who want to be educated.
>
> 1. So you thin the government should tell you what you should think?
> 2. Thats lets the teachers off then as it is "the educaion system"
> that is failing and not the teachers.
>
> FFS, most parents take an active part in their childrens education
> from the moment they are born.

The dregs we are discussing dont.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 24 2008 1:22 am
From: terryc

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 15:53:41 +1000, Simon wrote:

> The dregs we are discussing dont.

True,but that it shouldn't be up to teachers to fix the situation.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 24 2008 7:32 am
From: max

In article <pan.2008.08.24.08.22.12.52750@woa.com.au>,
terryc <newssixspam-spam@woa.com.au> wrote:

> On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 15:53:41 +1000, Simon wrote:
>
> > The dregs we are discussing dont.
>
> True,but that it shouldn't be up to teachers to fix the situation.

the age-old aphorism appropriate to this situation sounds like "you can
lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".

folk wisdom. wisdom. folksy.

--
This signature can be appended to your outgoing mesages. Many people include in
their signatures contact information, and perhaps a joke or quotation.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: I've 3 Cheap Dial-Ups & Want To Upgrade But...
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8b63cd812bb931f5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 24 2008 12:25 am
From: "Dave"

"Liberal's Worst Nightmare" <Relaxin@home.net> wrote in message
news:48ad805f.13959203@news.datemas.de...
> The cheapest dial-up yields at least one busy signal every third day
> and downloads 24-48 kbps.
>
> Another one rarely has a busy signal, downloads 24-48, and has a nice
> Usenet server.
>
> The third one never has a busy signal but dowload speed never tops 28.
>
> Total monthly cost for all 3 is about the same as one DSL which is now
> available here.
>
> Sure would like to have DSL to see video clips, youtube, etc.
>
> Unfortunately, the reports about DSL product reliability and lousy
> support have scared me off.

DSL is much more reliable than either dial-up OR cable modem Internet
service. At the same price, I'd choose a "slower" DSL connection over
"faster" cable modem service, every time.

Lousy support is not tied to any particular technology. I've had better
service with DSL than cable modem. In one case, I had to fix a problem with
my cable modem MYSELF, as the cable company refused to believe that I had a
problem...or more likely just wanted to play dumb, hoping I would shut up.

In short, cable modem is potentially faster, but download speed varies
wildly depending on time of week and time of DAY. DSL is as fast as any
normal Internet user would ever need (even for large downloads), and
download speed never varies. Now watch someone state "but it's all shared
bandwidth". Yes, and with DSL, the sharing happens far enough away from
your individual modem that the sharing doesn't affect your download speed.
Unlike cable modem which slows significantly when the neighborhood kids get
home from school...

I can't wait until the local phone company FINALLY offers naked DSL so I can
ditch my cable modem. Sigh...

The only thing to be aware of with DSL service is that you do NOT want to
install any PPPOE software with your DSL service. Instead, get a broadband
sharing router (good ones about thirty bucks?). That will maintain your DSL
connection for you. That is, the PPPOE connection is initiated and
maintained by firmware in the router (after you enter your DSL user name and
password in the router setup menus ONCE). You should be using a router with
any broadband Internet service, but it's especially important to get one for
DSL, so that you don't have to install any extra software on your computer.

But with a router maintaining the PPPOE connection for you? You will LOVE
DSL. -Dave

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 24 2008 12:46 am
From: aemeijers

Gordon wrote:
> Windswept@Home (Jack) wrote in news:48ade0ae.38614500@news-
> 60.giganews.com:
>
>> On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 23:26:19 +0200 (CEST), Gordon
>> <gonzo@alltomyself.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Relaxin@home.net (Liberal's Worst Nightmare) wrote in
>>> news:48ad805f.13959203@news.datemas.de:
>>>
>>>> The cheapest dial-up yields at least one busy signal every third day
>>>> and downloads 24-48 kbps.
>>>>
>>>> Another one rarely has a busy signal, downloads 24-48, and has a
> nice
>>>> Usenet server.
>>>>
>>>> The third one never has a busy signal but dowload speed never tops
> 28.
>>>> Total monthly cost for all 3 is about the same as one DSL which is
> now
>>>> available here.
>>>>
>>>> Sure would like to have DSL to see video clips, youtube, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, the reports about DSL product reliability and lousy
>>>> support have scared me off.
>>> Join the 21st Century and get DSL. Plenty of people have DSL
>>> and never experience a problem. If you like Unenet, you may
>>> want to keep the dialup that has the good usenet server. You may
>>> be able to log into the server from your DSL connection. Try it
>>> and see.
>> Sure would like to.
>>
>> Yeah, I understand that you can keep a dial-up for back up but need to
>> remove the DSL stuff and revert to the dial-up wiring and connection
>> set-up.
>
> Nope. They can co-exist. Dial up will still use your modem and the DUN
> to establish the connection. DSL will use a NIC (network connection).
>
> I was thinking more in terms of maintianing access to the news server.
> Most of the big national telcomms were blackmailed by NY state Atty
> Como into dropping most of the news groups from their servers except
> for the big eight hierarchies. So now it is necessary to have access
> to a better news server if you want to get the alt groups. You can
> buy into a priemium server it you like. But if the dialup ISP with
> the good server is cheap enough, it may be worth it to maintain a
> user account just to have access to their server.
>
> Now, understand somthing. Just because the news server is maintained
> by a dial up ISP, you don't have to dial into it. With your DSL link
> active, you should be able to access the news server via the internet.
> Just provide your user name and authentication information just like you
> do now.
Uh, not always just like you do now. Some dialups or whole ISPs only
authenticate news for connections made directly to them, to lock out
people looking for freebies. Once I switched to an 8 dollar 'bring your
own connectivity' account at my dialup ISP, I had to use a special set
of server names and ports to bang their news server. Not a real big
deal, but I do this stuff for a living, and it could be confusing to a
non-techie. Note that most DSL providers also provide backup dialup
ports as part of the account price. I kept my dialup ISP to keep the
same email address, as well as for news access. If all OP wants is news
access, an account with a news server company (like giganews or similar)
may be as cheap as maintaining seperate ISP account.

Maintaining news access is just gonna keep getting harder and harder.
Only a small percentage of internet customers are even aware of it and
use it any more, and the bean counters would like it all to just go
away. The NY AG thing was just the excuse they were looking for to drop
the server-hungry binary and/or alt.* hierarchies. Next time, they will
just drop it all.

--
aem sends...

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 24 2008 1:08 am
From: "Dave"

> Maintaining news access is just gonna keep getting harder and harder. Only
> a small percentage of internet customers are even aware of it and use it
> any more, and the bean counters would like it all to just go away. The NY
> AG thing was just the excuse they were looking for to drop the
> server-hungry binary and/or alt.* hierarchies. Next time, they will just
> drop it all.
>

NEXT time? Dude, the majors have stopped peering -usenet- (all of usenet!)
already. Not just binary groups and alt.* hierarchies. All the text-based
groups have dramatically decreased traffic now. -Dave

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Walmart Prices: Urban vs Rural?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/85719f2d4728a958?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 24 2008 12:37 am
From: "Dave"

"Ann" <nntpmail@epix.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2008.08.24.01.08.56.186863@epix.net...
> On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 22:49:29 +0000, Jonathan Grobe wrote:
>
>> Does Walmart have the same prices in its urban and rural Walmarts?
>
> There is a rural Walmart Super Center 10 miles south and one 20 miles
> north that I think is actually a little smaller. It's not seriously urban
> but is in a shopping center that also has a Home Depot. I've never seen a
> price on a food item at the local store that's less than at the "urban"
> one. The biggest difference in price is on items in the frozen food cases
> and bread - about 10-15% higher locally. I don't know if it's as much
> urban vs rural as it is that the local store has little competition.

There are four walmarts near us, three of them are supercenters. One
supercenter is in a RURAL area and it has the highest prices of the four.
I'm betting it's like you said, no local competition. In the case of the
rural supercenter, there is like literally nowhere else to shop. (for food
or anything else, unless you drive a half hour) We do shop at that one
occasionally as we have other business in the area and to get to anywhere
else to shop would be quite a drive, FROM THERE. We're always surprised at
the prices of the stuff we normally buy, typically about 20-30% higher at
this rural supercenter. The other three are definitely urban, and the
prices are cheaper than the rural one, and the prices are identical (among
the urban ones).

On a side note, I MUCH prefer to shop at Target, both for better quality
merchandise and usually priced competitively with Wal-Mart. The other huge
advantage Target has is, it's hardly ever over-crowded (whereas wal-mart is
always over-crowded). MUCH more relaxing to shop at Target. I just wish
they'd have built a "super" target near us. If we had a super target, I'd
probably never set foot in a wal-mart. But then, we get most of our
groceries at a local supermarket (not wal-mart or target) now. -Dave

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 24 2008 6:13 am
From: enigma

Dean Hoffman <""dh0496\"@ine$br#as&ka.com"> wrote in
news:1219540138_608@isp.n:

>
> Does the internet affect such things? I've never
> really compared
> internet pricing to the local stores.

well, since Wal-Mart contracts for the lowest prices with
their suppliers, the goods sold in the store are made, well,
cheaper. for things like toasters, it's not too big a deal
(assuming you realize a $9 toaster will crap out in less than
a year), but for bigger ticket items like TVs or computers,
what you get at Wal-Mart & what you can find elsewhere (Sears,
online) are entirely different items. even items with the same
code are substantially different in quality & features between
Wal-Mart & other places... which is why one should compare
features rather than price.

> Our local farmer's coop prices their gas according to
> the town the
> station is in. It probably has 8 or 10 of the self serve
> card stations scattered around the area.

i've noticed that as well here. some towns are way less
expensive for gas (4-9 cents/gallon). when i see that in NY i
understand it's because of the taxes there, state, county &
town can all throw in their own taxes, but in NH it's just one
of those weird things. gas in my town is $3.69/gal today. in
Epsom it's $3.65 & in Chichester it's $3.63...
lee
--
Last night while sitting in my chair
I pinged a host that wasn't there
It wasn't there again today
The host resolved to NSA.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 24 2008 7:39 am
From: Jeff

enigma wrote:
> Jonathan Grobe <grobe@netins.net> wrote in
> news:slrngb14vp.9b3.grobe@worf.netins.net:
>
>> Does Walmart have the same prices in its urban and
>> rural Walmarts? How much latitude do individual store
>> managers have in pricing?
>
> i don't shop at Wal-Mart, but as an ex-retail manager, i can
> say that they most likely have "zone pricing" for various
> stores, depending on their location. it doesn't so much have
> to do with suburban vs rural, but with the various local
> economies. most retail companies have 3 to 5 "zones", or
> pricing levels.
> individual store managers would have very little leeway in
> adjusting prices in their store. they would likely be able to
> price match a competitor, but they couldn't make the price
> lower than the competition.

Some Walmarts may have more flexibility. I've see that in particular in
a Walmart that had a Target open up across the street.

Jeff

they couldn't match an online
> price, only a local competitor. they would need district
> manager approval to price match a differently zoned Wal-Mart,
> & that would be unlikely unless the other store was within 50
> miles or so.
> lee
>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Air filters, HEPA filters, HEPA purifiers
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e72effb15703c4b0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 24 2008 12:45 am
From: "Dave"

<david7gable@aol.com> wrote in message
news:2660a1ca-6794-41f3-8d3a-ff3bf05830ca@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
> The question is, do air filters work? We have a one-room basement
> apartment in our home, where, alas, the dust gathers in copious
> quantities, at least compared to upstairs. Would a good air filter or
> air purifier essentially remove the dust from the atmosphere? Which
> filter or purifier do you recommend?
>
> -david gable

Do air filters work? It depends on your house, how airtight you keep it.
If you've got copious amounts of dust, you probably have a problem large
enough that an air filter would not work.

However, if you close off one room in the UPSTAIRS, a Honeywell brand HEPA
air purifier works pretty good. Good enough that someone with seasonal
allergies might be able to go without his meds, or take them less often.

If you are shopping for a air purifier, there is one word you need to
familiarize yourself with: CADR
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_Air_Delivery_Rate
If you study CADR for a while, and see how a good Honeywell HEPA purifier
works, you'll understand why the fanless air purifiers can't possibly work
as well as they claim to. That is, the fanless ones (Ionic breeze?) might
remove lots of really small stuff from the air that contacts the cleaning
surfaces...but they aren't processing enough air that it matters. -Dave

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Half-ton woman indicted in slaying of nephew
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/935cc02fc86d96ba?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 24 2008 12:51 am
From: "Dave"

>
> The boy's mother, Jaime Rosales, was charged with injury to a child
> because
> she is accused of leaving her son alone with his aunt. Her bail has been
> set at $100,000.

I think she should be charged with murder, also. You don't leave a
2-year-old with someone who is clearly incapable of caring for the child.
Even if the aunt hadn't deliberately done something to cause injury, a
NEGLECTED (this boy was definitely neglected) 2-year-old can easily find a
way to die within seconds. -Dave

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Spyware
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a9b0f8fafb3d4415?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 24 2008 1:12 am
From: "david7gable@aol.com"

What's the best anti-spyware program out there, free or otherwise?

-david gable

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 24 2008 1:41 am
From: "Dave"

<david7gable@aol.com> wrote in message
news:a08d403b-ff32-4c4c-9f7f-3b8a5a44511f@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> What's the best anti-spyware program out there, free or otherwise?
>
> -david gable

spybot search & destroy

freeware:
http://www.download.com/3120-20_4.html?tg=dl-20&qt=spybot&tag=srch

Adaware is pretty good also
http://www.download.com/3120-20_4.html?tg=dl-20&qt=adaware&tag=srch

I'd suggest you use both, along with avast! antivirus and zonealarm software
firewall, to supplement the hardware firewall that you ARE using. (right?)
:) -Dave

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 24 2008 5:09 am
From: Shawn Hirn

In article
<a08d403b-ff32-4c4c-9f7f-3b8a5a44511f@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
"david7gable@aol.com" <david7gable@aol.com> wrote:

> What's the best anti-spyware program out there, free or otherwise?
>
> -david gable

Good common sense and Mac OS X work fine for me. No added software is
necessary.

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 24 2008 5:14 am
From: "Dave"

>
> Good common sense and Mac OS X work fine for me. No added software is
> necessary.

The required lobotomy is kind of expensive and painful, though. -Dave

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 24 2008 5:34 am
From: Parallax

david7gable@aol.com wrote:
> What's the best anti-spyware program out there, free or otherwise?
>
> -david gable

http://www.techsupportalert.com/pc/security

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 24 2008 7:38 am
From: Mr Bungle 34

book marked...

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Exploding iPods!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/20415c036fa62cee?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 24 2008 4:10 am
From: Truly Stunned

In article <qVTrk.16618$vX2.10322@bignews6.bellsouth.net>,
"Mocassin Joe" <jmocasanto@comcast.net> wrote:

> Is that little platform with fan an Apple option? My MIL has suffered third
> degree burns from using her MacBook, and I would love to buy the little
> platform for her. Your help would be appreciated.

The best one we've found is the Belkin model with a fan that operates
off power from the USB port. It works really well with both our Mac and
Windows laptops.

BTW, we bought a Macbook Pro with the new Penryn processor. Much cooler
operating. Expect the same would be true for Windows laptops using it.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Cell phone fragility?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9a5e26553db076b8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 24 2008 4:26 am
From: Truly Stunned

In article <Xns9B035EE438F8Binvalidcom@130.133.1.4>,
Ken <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> With a year Tracfone contract I was given a new LG 225 phone. This has
> nice features and works well but has a stubby ~1 in. antenna sticking
> out one side of the top. Does anyone know from experience if this is
> fragile? Break easily? Should I be very cautious with it? I Googled but
> didn't see any complaints in a quick search.
>
> TIA
>
> Ken

There is no reason whatsoever at all for any modern cell phone to have a
visible antenna. That stubby appendage that looks like an antenna on
cell phones is completely non-functional, designed solely for the visual
gratification of the end user. You could snap it right off without any
deleterious effect on your phone's reception (although this is not
recommended for aesthetic reasons).

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The DSL 12-Month Commitment
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/bb1b6c0797411fac?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 24 2008 4:38 am
From: spam@nospam.org (Messiah Obama)

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 13:09:50 +1000, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

>Some gutless fuckwit desperately cowering behind
>Messiah Obama <spam@nospam.org> wrote the completely superfluous
>proof that its never ever had a fucking clue about anything at all, ever.
>
>
Hold still .... bend ... spread ...
Grunt, thrust, grunt, thrust. Ahhhhhhhhhh.

Thank'ee ma'am.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Millions of tires subject to recall due to blowout hazard
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e5bd68d9e7fcbe32?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 24 2008 5:40 am
From: Paulie Walnutts

On Aug 23, 10:19 pm, The Real Bev <bashley101+use...@gmail.com> wrote:
> AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
> > <ultim...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/consumer/recalls&id=63...
>
> > not tires, tire stems
>
> Can you still get metal ones? Are they better or worse?
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Bev
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> "Rats cry when they hear about my life." -- Dilbert

Yeah,if you drive an 18 wheeler.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 24 2008 7:41 am
From: Darkangel de la Louisiane

The Real Bev wrote:
> AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
>
>> <ultimauw@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/consumer/recalls&id=6338125
>>>
>>
>> not tires, tire stems
>
> Can you still get metal ones? Are they better or worse?
>

Last time I went and bought yet another part for the car, I saw a couple
of brands of what looked like metal stems.

I'd guess they still sell them, but you need to either do your own tire
work or ask for them to install them when you get tire work done
someplace. Otherwise you'll just end up with the "el cheapo" hard
plastic variety.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Use it or lose it?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8826541b5009dfa9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 24 2008 7:54 am
From: George

The Real Bev wrote:
> Rod Speed wrote:
>
>> George <george@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>> timeOday wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Considering the rapid increase in standard of living in China and
>>>> India over the last decade or so, and considering we do business
>>>> with them, it surprises me that the median US standard of living
>>>> really hasn't increased in a generation or so. Some things get
>>>> better (e.g. invention of the Internet) while others get worse (e.g.
>>>> affordability of beach-front property).
>>>>
>>> Why would it? Consider that China is doing things we used to do and
>>> thats why their standard of living increased.
>>>
>>> Previously we had lots of good paying manufacturing jobs which
>>> enabled a true middle class.
>>
>> The real middle class never ever was involved in manufacturing jobs.
>
> Certainly not actually having to TOUCH the machinery itself, but they
> might have started out that way.

Sure they can. I don't remember the exact numbers but there are distinct
statistical groups. The poor are below whatever the poverty line is.
Then the middle class is divided into lower/middle/upper and then there
are the rich.

Until recently many folks who worked in factories were the middle class.

>
> Nobody ever actually defines "the middle class" or "the rich". It's way
> easier to despise and wish to soak The Rich when you don't know that
> you're one of them.
>

Not sure why you are reading that into what I said. This is the first
time in the US where a child will likely statistically do worse than
their parents. From what it sounds like you are retired, you have yours
and you don't particularly care but that doesn't mean the conditions I
described aren't outside your window.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 24 2008 7:55 am
From: George

jdoe wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 09:43:59 -0400, George <george@nospam.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> timeOday wrote:
>>
>>> Considering the rapid increase in standard of living in China and India
>>> over the last decade or so, and considering we do business with them, it
>>> surprises me that the median US standard of living really hasn't
>>> increased in a generation or so. Some things get better (e.g. invention
>>> of the Internet) while others get worse (e.g. affordability of
>>> beach-front property).
>>>
>> Why would it? Consider that China is doing things we used to do and
>> thats why their standard of living increased.
>>
>> Previously we had lots of good paying manufacturing jobs which enabled a
>> true middle class.
> it's called evolution, the work place in the US has evolved beyond
> menial industrial tasks, people need to be trained and or educated in
> order to make it in our society. People like you who are having
> trouble with that reality are akin to the luddites who bemoaned the
> industrial revolution.
> the moral to the story is keep up or get left behind
>
> for the original poster, the standard of living in the US has jumped
> by leaps and bounds over the last 50 years, wake up and look around,
> more people have a much better lifestyle than ever before, the same
> moral holds true for people who think like you
> __________________________________________
> Never argue with an idiot.
> They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Good job, you repeated what Rush told you to say without applying any
critical thinking and then made yourself look even sillier by delivering
an ad hominem attack.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: erotik kontaktanzeigen koblenz in Eichsfeld kontaktanzeigen lesen fremd
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/6c96c4b9f4090d38?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 24 2008 8:19 am
From: james7047276@googlemail.com

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Sunday, August 24, 2008

25 new messages in 12 topics - digest

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