Frugal Living: misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 10 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Sample Complaint Letter
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/475c500b88e7b4e4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 1:56 pm
From: Al Bundy

Cheapo Groovo wrote:
> (date)
>
> John Jones
> Regional Vice President
> ABCD Company
> 500 Main Street
> Suite 100
> Anywhere, USA
>
> Dear Mr. Jones,
>
> I regret having to write to you about an unpleasant experience I've had
> with your company. I prefer to contact a company only in praise of an
> employee or the company's actions. Unfortunately, my situation is such
> that it is necessary for me to forward a complaint to you.
>
> (In this area, give the specifics of the complaint. Say who you've
> spoken with about the problem, what attempts you've made to solve it and
> what specific action you would like. I always ask for coupons or some
> type of compensation)
>
> I look forward to hearing from you within 30 days, so that we are able
> to resolve this problem in a speedy fashion.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> (your name)

I don't favor any cookie cutter approach to letter writing. Sometimes
humor works and other times a more threatening formal letter is in
order. I wrote to Wendy's headquarters six weeks ago about the two
occasions we found hair in their Frosties from the same location. So
far there has been no response. We have not been there in six weeks
either. Some companies have a culture that responds to complaints and
other companies ignore everything. When I know which category they
fit, I act accordingly. Further complaints on deaf ears are a waste of
my time.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Do you want your tax money to pay a forklift operator $103,000.00 a
year
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/ddfc45ecb2d7616d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 3:27 pm
From: Marsha

Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> On Nov 18, 7:32 pm, Amos Nandy <amos_na...@cebu.net> wrote:
>>Yes, and the Labor Unions who supported LaBomba have made ridiculous
>>demands that equal $1500 added to the price of a car JUST TO COVER
>>HEALTH BENEFITS (alcohol and drug rehab, abortion,
>
>
> Isn't covering abortion more cost-effective than covering childbirth
> and subsequent
> medical expenses until age 18?
>
> Cindy Hamilton

Isn't covering the elimination of people with a low IQ or elderly people
more cost effective than covering their medical expenses? Depending on
who makes the rules, you could be on the next list.

Marsha

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 6:29 pm
From: Hnic Hastogo

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:39:51 GMT, TruthTeller@nospam.net wrote:
Some amazingly disjointed rantings fantasy, i.e., Democrats doing
something to aid the people.

And a very handsome and intelligent gentleman responded thusly:

>Wrong, wrong winger, The Labor Unions who supported LaBomba have made
>>ridiculous demands that equal $1500 added to the price of a car JUST
>>TO COVER HEALTH BENEFITS (alcohol and drug rehab, abortion, etc,) No
>>wonder that the country is going broke...leftist liberals and labor
>>unions are in bed together but we the people are the ones getting
>>fucked.

The ranting fool answered with this and quickly got knocked down and
kicked in the teeth by the handsome gentle man (see his response
below.)

>Hey right wign asshole --> There are statements from the companies that
>health costs are out of their control.
>
>The repuks that you love, have done nothing but stop reform of the system.
>Now stop your right wing idiot lying. We threw you asshole out of
>office this month, because of this kind of behavior. Get on the changes
>goober.

I'd rather just standby and watch as you fall ass over tea kettle
screwing things up (as is customary with democrats) and laugh as your
poster boy queer, Barney Frank and his "Party of The Unions" get
dumped in the street in 2010-12. What about Labomba, you ask, he'll be
nothing more than a "Gofer-Boy" for the good old boys in the "Party of
The Unions". His time has come and gone.

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 6:34 pm
From: BE-VA

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:23:55 -0800 (PST), Daniel
<sabot120mm@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Nov 18, 5:22 pm, TruthTel...@nospam.net wrote:
>> In <96c903fc-9181-4782-a256-6a80cc40e...@a17g2000prm.googlegroups.com>, on
>> 11/18/2008
>> at 01:32 PM, Daniel <sabot12...@hotmail.com> said:
>>
>> >On Nov 18, 1:29 pm, TruthTel...@nospam.net wrote:
>> >> You people need to do some homework. The so-called $73 ph, is not cash.
>> >> it includes benefits and retirement costs.
>> >Which is STILL too much money for an unskilled laborer that does nothing
>> >more than hold a tool.
>>
>> Do your homework. Its not unskilled labor anymore.
>
>Your job consists of holding a tool that does all the work for you.
>That by itself is the definition of unskilled. If you don't like it,
>tough.

While I agree with you with regards to pay for work done I don't agree
with your premise -- by your premise a military pilot flying a 25
million dollar aircraft is unskilled labor since all he does is sit in
the cockpit and pull levers and push buttons.

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 6:37 pm
From: Amos Nandy

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:55:21 -0800 (PST), Cindy Hamilton
<angelicapaganelli@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Nov 18, 7:32 pm, Amos Nandy <amos_na...@cebu.net> wrote:
>
>> Yes, and the Labor Unions who supported LaBomba have made ridiculous
>> demands that equal $1500 added to the price of a car JUST TO COVER
>> HEALTH BENEFITS (alcohol and drug rehab, abortion,
>
>Isn't covering abortion more cost-effective than covering childbirth
>and subsequent
>medical expenses until age 18?

It depends on what value you put on the life of a human being.

>Cindy Hamilton

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 6:40 pm
From: LeRoy Blue

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 18:27:10 -0500, Marsha <mas@xeb.net> wrote:

>Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>> On Nov 18, 7:32 pm, Amos Nandy <amos_na...@cebu.net> wrote:
>>>Yes, and the Labor Unions who supported LaBomba have made ridiculous
>>>demands that equal $1500 added to the price of a car JUST TO COVER
>>>HEALTH BENEFITS (alcohol and drug rehab, abortion,
>>
>>
>> Isn't covering abortion more cost-effective than covering childbirth
>> and subsequent
>> medical expenses until age 18?
>>
>> Cindy Hamilton
>
>Isn't covering the elimination of people with a low IQ or elderly people
>more cost effective than covering their medical expenses? Depending on
>who makes the rules, you could be on the next list.

Good question since some people seem to never consider the
consequences of their decisions.

>Marsha

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 6:49 pm
From: Wilma6116@gmail.com

On Nov 19, 6:34 pm, BE-VA <blackwater-evangal...@testland.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:23:55 -0800 (PST), Daniel
>
>
>
>
>
> <sabot12...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >On Nov 18, 5:22 pm, TruthTel...@nospam.net wrote:
> >> In <96c903fc-9181-4782-a256-6a80cc40e...@a17g2000prm.googlegroups.com>, on
> >> 11/18/2008
> >> at 01:32 PM, Daniel <sabot12...@hotmail.com> said:
>
> >> >On Nov 18, 1:29 pm, TruthTel...@nospam.net wrote:
> >> >> You people need to do some homework. The so-called $73 ph, is not cash.
> >> >> it includes benefits and retirement costs.
> >> >Which is STILL too much money for an unskilled laborer that does nothing
> >> >more than hold a tool.
>
> >> Do your homework. Its not unskilled labor anymore.
>
> >Your job consists of holding a tool that does all the work for you.
> >That by itself is the definition of unskilled. If you don't like it,
> >tough.
>
> While I agree with you with regards to pay for work done I don't agree
> with your premise -- by your premise a military pilot flying a 25
> million dollar aircraft is unskilled labor since all he does is sit in
> the cockpit and pull levers and push buttons.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

What has happened to America? We are fighting over whether or not some
worker is making too much at around $100,000 a year. This not right,
everyone who works should make enough to afford a home and to send
their children to college and to plan for retirement.

OTOH, we have the CEO for Ford making in excess of $25 million a year,
or $500,000 a week or $100,00 a day. The CEO who helped bring to ruin
his company makes more in one day than the worker who safely installs
life saving brakes on cars at a rate of about 60 an hour. Life is not
fair, but I thought my Pledge of Aligience said this country stood for
justice for all.

So, not only does the the CEO make more than 250 times more than some
'overpaid' worker, he flies to Washington DC in a private plane that
brings the flight cost for the CE to more than $40,000 round trip. He
could have flown coach for less than $300 or splurged and gone first
class for around $1000. Instead he needs to go private jet to meet
with elected millionaires and plead that Ford needs money.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Bloomberg: Get ready for a 4000 DOW by as early as inauguration day!
Recovery could take decades!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/7c584a714024005b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 3:36 pm
From: hpope@lycos.com

On Nov 19, 4:23 pm, thylacoleocarni...@clearwire.net wrote:
> Bush's coupe de grace for America's middle class. The long term
> investor is dead. America's Age of Gluttony has ended...http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=agudZCuyk73g&refe...

Sell now, I repeat, sell now. Buy back into market with DOW at
6500-7000. Enjoy the discount!

mitch

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 3:48 pm
From: California Poppy

On Nov 19, 3:36�pm, hp...@lycos.com wrote:
> On Nov 19, 4:23�pm, thylacoleocarni...@clearwire.net wrote:
>
> > Bush's coupe de grace for America's middle class. The long term
> > investor is dead. �America's Age of Gluttony has ended...http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=agudZCuyk73g&refe...
>
> Sell now, I repeat, sell now. Buy back into market with DOW at
> 6500-7000. Enjoy the discount!
>
> mitch

Bush or any president had nothing to do with it. The economy is
pretty much independent of whoever is in office. It is sad though to
see the DOW and my stocks go down.

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 4:00 pm
From: clams_casino

California Poppy wrote:

>On Nov 19, 3:36�pm, hp...@lycos.com wrote:
>
>
>>On Nov 19, 4:23�pm, thylacoleocarni...@clearwire.net wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Bush's coupe de grace for America's middle class. The long term
>>>investor is dead. �America's Age of Gluttony has ended...http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=agudZCuyk73g&refe...
>>>
>>>
>>Sell now, I repeat, sell now. Buy back into market with DOW at
>>6500-7000. Enjoy the discount!
>>
>>mitch
>>
>>
>
>Bush or any president had nothing to do with it. The economy is
>pretty much independent of whoever is in office. It is sad though to
>see the DOW and my stocks go down.
>
>

If you believe the president has no influence, then why do you even
bother to vote?

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 4:03 pm
From: Marsha

clams_casino wrote:

> California Poppy wrote:
>> Bush or any president had nothing to do with it. The economy is
>> pretty much independent of whoever is in office. It is sad though to
>> see the DOW and my stocks go down.
>>
>>
> If you believe the president has no influence, then why do you even
> bother to vote?

Presidents have influence over other things, don't you think?

Marsha

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 5:09 pm
From: SMITH29

California Poppy wrote:
> On Nov 19, 3:36�pm, hp...@lycos.com wrote:
>> On Nov 19, 4:23�pm, thylacoleocarni...@clearwire.net wrote:
>>
>>> Bush's coupe de grace for America's middle class. The long term
>>> investor is dead. �America's Age of Gluttony has ended...http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=agudZCuyk73g&refe...
>> Sell now, I repeat, sell now. Buy back into market with DOW at
>> 6500-7000. Enjoy the discount!
>>
>> mitch
>
> Bush or any president had nothing to do with it. The economy is
> pretty much independent of whoever is in office. It is sad though to
> see the DOW and my stocks go down.

xxxx
Garner cash and be ready for the turn around.
Sell nothing and sit tight.
Some REAL bargains are coming up.
Fuel is much lower in price so enjoy.

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 5:52 pm
From: clams_casino

Marsha wrote:

> clams_casino wrote:
>
>> California Poppy wrote:
>>
>>> Bush or any president had nothing to do with it. The economy is
>>> pretty much independent of whoever is in office. It is sad though to
>>> see the DOW and my stocks go down.
>>>
>>>
>> If you believe the president has no influence, then why do you even
>> bother to vote?
>
>
> Presidents have influence over other things, don't you think?
>
> Marsha
>

Primarily, the economy and international relations.

GW has obviously been 0 for 2.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Thermostat Setting
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/c56213882c5b7104?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 3:54 pm
From: phil scott

On Nov 19, 5:38 am, Napoleon <ana...@666yes.net> wrote:
> An appropriate time of the year for this post.
>
> I keep my thermostat at 59 from 8am to 5pm and 9pm to 6am.
> From 6am to 8am and 5pm to 9pm the thermostat is kept at 64. Is this
> more frugal than keeping the thermostat set at 62 the entire day?
>
> Would it be more worthwhile to keep the thermostat set lower at night
> or would you use more gas just getting it up to 64 from say 56? I use
> natural gas to heat and I am in upstate NY.
>
> What are your thermostat settings, where do you live, what do you use
> to heat, and did you see a savings last year from lowering it at
> night?
>
> -N

its frugal... it would be more fugal if you use a matress warmer and
set the stat to 50F at night.

Phil scott

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 4:03 pm
From: Dan Birchall

anarch@666yes.net (Napoleon) wrote:
> What are your thermostat settings,

I don't have a thermostat.

> where do you live,

Hawaii.

> what do you use to heat,

Heat?

--
"Infirm indeed are my bones, and the hair of my head doth glisten with
grey: but never am I unblest."

==============================================================================
TOPIC: anyone make a wifi finder with internet telephone capabilities?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/81d9c571716583a4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 4:01 pm
From: Dan Birchall

rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com (Rod Speed) wrote:
> OhioGuy <none@none.net> wrote:
> > I'm wondering if anyone makes some sort of pocket pc that is wifi
> > enabled, and has enough 'horsepower' to run Yahoo Messenger?
>
> > I'd like something like that that would work with a plain vanilla
> > headset, and let me do voice calls over the Internet whenever the
> > thing finds an open wifi hotspot.
>
> > Obviously, I can buy a laptop for $400 that will do this, but I was
> > hoping that by now there would be something smaller with the same
> > capabilities, and hopefully cheaper. ($200 or less)
>
> Some of the better cellphone will do that, like the Nokia N95
> and N96.
>
> They have a built in voip too.

Yeah. iPhone, too (well, not built-in VOIP, but a Skype client called
Fring) - which might be cheaper than the N96, if not the N95 - but then
you get into the whole monthly service plan, sigh. Do any of the
phones do full-blown Yahoo with voice, though? And OhioGuy, do you
specifically need Yahoo?

--
"Infirm indeed are my bones, and the hair of my head doth glisten with
grey: but never am I unblest."

==============================================================================
TOPIC: 50 Years Later... ...black children are still choosing the white doll.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/53568b9fdc824ebb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 4:03 pm
From: wismel@yahoo.com

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:20:28 GMT, jazzerciser@hotmail.com (-) wrote:

>
>http://www.wvwnews.net/story.php?id=6052
>
> 50 Years Later...
>Race; Posted on: 2008-11-17
> [ Printer friendly / Instant flyer ]
>
>
>...black children are still choosing the white doll.
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/v/qWEXJ-Qd1uw&hl=en&fs=1
>
>
>We would like to see this test conducted with white children. -- Ed.
>News Source: EAU
>
>
>Related Stories
>A Look At Black Crime Rates -- 50 Years Ago.
> http://www.wvwnews.net/story.php?id=5036
>
>
>
>
>2007-2008 European Americans United.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Huntington, WV obesity ranks #1
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/4584bec0b9e9b485?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 4:08 pm
From: wismel@yahoo.com

On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 07:49:43 -0500, "Tellwitcha" <storm@sea.net>
wrote:

><hpope@lycos.com> wrote in message
>news:38fe8b5d-a989-458a-9a96-a6bc9e2687f5@s9g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
>On Nov 17, 4:48 pm, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 12:01:18 -0800 (PST), "(David P.)"
>>
>>
>>
>> <imb...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> >[I stole this article -- have me arrested for theft!]
>>
>> >W. Virginia town shrugs at poorest health ranking
>>
>> >By MIKE STOBBE (AP Medical Writer)
>> >Nov 16, 2008
>>
>> >HUNTINGTON, W.Va. - As a portly woman
>> >plodded ahead of him on the sidewalk,
>> >the obese mayor of America's fattest
>> >and unhealthiest city explained why
>> >health is not a big local issue.
>>
>> >"It doesn't come up," said David
>> >Felinton, 5-foot-9 and 233 pounds,
>> >as he walked toward City Hall one
>> >recent morning. "We've got a lot of
>> >economic challenges here in Huntington.
>> >That's usually the focus."
>>
>> >Huntington's economy has withered,
>> >its poverty rate is worse than the
>> >national average, and vagrants haunt
>> >a downtown riverfront park. But this
>> >city's financial woes are not nearly
>> >as bad as its health.
>>
>> >Nearly half the adults in Huntington's
>> >five-county metropolitan area are obese -
>> >an astounding percentage, far bigger
>> >than the national average in a country
>> >with a well-known weight problem.
>>
>> >Huntington leads in a half-dozen other
>> >illness measures, too, including heart
>> >disease and diabetes. It's even tops
>> >in the percentage of elderly people who
>> >have lost all their teeth (half of them
>> >have).
>>
>> >It's a sad situation, and a potential
>> >harbinger of what will happen to other
>> >U.S. communities, said Ken Thorpe, an
>> >Emory University health policy professor
>> >who's workin' with W. Virginia officials
>> >on health reform legislation.
>>
>> >"They may be at the very top, but
>> >obesity and diabetes trends are very
>> >similar" in many other communities,
>> >particularly in the South, Thorpe said.
>>
>> >The Huntington area's health problems,
>> >cited in a U.S. health report, are a
>> >terrible distinction for the city, but
>> >the locals barely talk about it. Many
>> >don't even know how poorly the city ranks.
>>
>> >Culture and history are at least part
>> >of the problem, health officials say.
>>
>> >This city on the Ohio River is surrounded
>> >by Appalachia's thinly populated hills.
>> >It has long been a blue-collar, white-
>> >skinned community - overwhelmingly people
>> >of English, Irish and German ancestry.
>>
>> >For decades, Huntington thrived with the
>> >coal mines to its south, as barges,
>> >trucks and trains loaded with the black
>> >fuel continually chugged into and past
>> >the city. There were plenty of
>> >manufacturing jobs in the chemical
>> >industry and in glassworks, steel and
>> >locomotive parts. Nearly 90,000 people
>> >lived in the city in 1950.
>>
>> >The traditional diet was heavy with
>> >fried foods, salt, gravy, sauces, and
>> >fattier meats - dense with calories
>> >burnt off through manual labor. Obesity
>> >was not a worry then. Workplace injuries
>> >were.
>>
>> >But as the coal industry modernized and
>> >the economy changed, manufacturing jobs
>> >left. The city's population is now fewer
>> >than 50,000, and chronic diseases - many
>> >of them connected to obesity - seem much
>> >more common.
>>
>> >Shari Wiley is a nurse at St. Mary's
>> >Regional Heart Institute in Huntington.
>> >She runs a program that identifies heavy
>> >school children and tries to teach them
>> >better eating and exercise habits. The
>> >effort began because of an alarming trend.
>>
>> >"A lot of the patients we were seeing
>> >were getting heart attacks in their 30s.
>> >They were requiring open heart surgery in
>> >their 30s. And we were concerned because
>> >it used to be you wouldn't see heart
>> >patients come in until they were in their
>> >50s," Wiley said.
>>
>> >The Huntington area's essentially tied with
>> >a few other metro areas for proportion of
>> >people who don't exercise (31 percent),
>> >have heart disease (22 percent) and
>> >diabetes (13 percent). The smoking rate
>> >is pretty high, too, although not the worst.
>>
>> >However, the region is a clear-cut leader
>> >in dental problems, with nearly half the
>> >people age 65 and older saying they have
>> >lost all their natural teeth. And no other
>> >metro area comes close to Huntington's
>> >adult obesity rate, according to the report
>> >by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and
>> >Prevention, based on data from 2006.
>>
>> >Perhaps fittingly, hospitals are now
>> >Huntington's largest employers. Another
>> >is Marshall University, home of the
>> >"Thundering Herd" football team depicted
>> >in the 2006 film "We Are Marshall" which
>> >dominates local sports conversations.
>>
>> >The river runs along the edge of town,
>> >but it's not a focal point. Marshall and
>> >one of the city's remaining factories sit
>> >to the east with several blocks of hotels
>> >and office buildings farther west. A new
>> >complex called Pullman Square - which
>> >includes a movie theater and a Starbucks -
>> >is trying to become a retail and dining
>> >center and illustrates a transition to a
>> >service economy.
>>
>> >The area's unemployment rate was about
>> >5 percent in September, actually a bit
>> >better than the 6.1 percent national
>> >average that month. But often the jobs
>> >are not high-paying. Many workers lack
>> >health insurance, and corporate wellness
>> >programs - common at large national
>> >companies - are rare.
>>
>> >Poverty hovers, with the area rate at
>> >19 percent, much higher than the national
>> >average. In the hilly coal fields to the
>> >South, people still live in houses or
>> >trailers with drooping, battered roofs.
>> >They stare hard at any stranger in a new
>> >car. In Huntington and its outskirts,
>> >many people think of exercise and healthy
>> >eating as luxuries.
>>
>> >The economy needs to pick up "so people
>> >can afford to get healthy," said Ronnie
>> >Adkins, 67, a retired policeman, as he
>> >sat one recent morning on the smoking
>> >porch of the Jolly Pirate Donuts shop
>> >on U.S. 60.
>>
>> >Doughnut shops don't help either, of course.
>> >But breakfast pastry shops aren't the most
>> >common outlets for fatty food. Pizza joints
>> >are. They are seemingly on every block in
>> >some parts of the city. The online Yellow
>> >Pages lists more pizza places (nearly 200)
>> >for the Huntington area than the entire
>> >state of West Virginia has gyms and health
>> >clubs (149).
>>
>> >Hot dog places also abound, with the city
>> >hosting an annual hot dog festival every
>> >summer. "I've never seen so many places
>> >that are hot dog oriented. I guess it's
>> >a cultural thing. Appalachian," said Mayor
>> >Felinton, who grew up in Maryland and moved
>> >to Huntington to attend Marshall University
>> >and stayed put.
>>
>> >Fast food has become a staple, with many
>> >residents convinced they can't afford to
>> >buy healthier foods, said Keri Kennedy,
>> >manager of the state health department's
>> >Office of Healthy Lifestyles.
>>
>> >Kennedy said she'd just seen a commercial
>> >that presented "The KFC $10 Challenge."
>> >The fried-chicken chain placed a family
>> >in a grocery store and challenged them to
>> >put together a dinner for $10 or less that
>> >was comparable to KFC's seven-piece, $9.99
>> >value meal.
>>
>> >"This is what we're up agin'," said Kennedy,
>> >noting it's an extremely persuasive ad for
>> >a low-income family that is accustomed to
>> >fried foods. "I dunno whatcha do t' counter't."
>>
>> >Lack of exercise is another concern. During
>> >a warm and sunny autumn week in Huntington -
>> >the kind of weather that would bring out
>> >small armies of joggers in some cities -
>> >it was unusual to see a runner or bicyclist.
>> >The exercise that does occur is mostly
>> >confined to a local YMCA, at campus
>> >recreation facilities at Marshall, or at
>> >Ritter Park in a tony neighborhood south
>> >of downtown.
>>
>> >Some attribute the problem to crumbling
>> >sidewalks in the city & a lack of walkways
>> >along busy rural roads. Others blame it on
>> >lack of motivation, as well as a cultural
>> >attitude that never included exercise for
>> >health.
>>
>> >There's a connection between education &
>> >lack of exercise, 2, said Dr. T. Dannals,
>> >a Huntington family physician.
>>
>> >"The undereducated don't know the value
>> >of it. They don't have the drive for it.
>> >There's a reason you're successful, you've
>> >got drive. The same is true for exercise,"
>> >said Dannals.
>>
>> >Dannals has been trying to change cultural
>> >attitudes. The local newspaper has called
>> >him "an exercise evangelist" for founding
>> >the city's triathlon, marathon and other
>> >projects designed to make exercise popular
>> >and fun. He's also spearheading a riverfront
>> >exercise trail project, called the Paul
>> >Ambrose Trail for Health (PATH).
>>
>> >Ambrose was a Huntington physician who died
>> >in the Sept. 11, 2001, jet that crashed
>> >into the Pentagon. Just before he died,
>> >he had been working on a U.S. Surgeon
>> >General report on obesity, and was on the
>> >plane that morning to attend an adolescent
>> >obesity conference in Los Angeles.
>>
>> >But the PATH project, first proposed more
>> >than a year ago, has yet to win the
>> >necessary funding. The lack of support
>> >is not surprising: Dannals can't even get
>> >a company to sponsor the Huntington marathon.
>>
>> >Local politicians tend to be equally tepid
>> >about improving health, said Dr. Harry Tweel,
>> >director of the Cabell-Huntington Health
>> >Department.
>>
>> >Smoking - a common sin in West Virginia -
>> >has been hard to control, Tweel said. When
>> >the health department tried to restrict
>> >smoking in local bars and restaurants, a
>> >group of local businesses fought it all
>> >the way to the state Supreme Court. (The
>> >restrictions were upheld in 2003.) Even
>> >hospitals have fought smoking restrictions
>> >in the past, Tweel said.
>>
>> >Other communities have taken more ambitious
>> >steps to control the amount of fat in local
>> >restaurant food. In July, the Los Angeles
>> >City Council placed a moratorium on new fast
>> >food restaurants in an impoverished area of
>> >the city with above-average rates of obesity.
>> >In 2006, New York City became the first U.S.
>> >city to ban artificial trans fats in
>> >restaurant foods. Other cities are
>> >considering similar measures.
>>
>> >Forget it, Tweel said. Not in Huntington.
>>
>> >"You're mentioning areas (of the country)
>> >that are well beyond this local region in
>> >accepting that kind of change," said Tweel.
>>
>> >"People here have an attitude of 'You're
>> >not going to tell me what I can eat.' The
>> >cultural attitude is 'My parents ate that
>> >and my grandparents ate that,'" he said.
>>
>> >Mayor Felinton echoed Tweel. Felinton
>> >had stomach surgery last- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -...
>>
>> read more »
>
>Sounds EXACTLY like where I live in Kentucky, especially the attitude part.
>I've never seen so many people with bellies that slap their thighs, and the
>saddest thing is you see their kids, still in grade school, already wheezing
>from their weight.
>:(
>
I think the morbidly obese should be denied medical benefits unless
they demonstrate that they are on a serious weigth loss program.
Overall, negroes and hispanics have worst stats nationwide.

ted

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 4:29 pm
From: "Support our troops, O5 and below. SeaWoe"

On Nov 19, 4:08 pm, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 07:49:43 -0500, "Tellwitcha" <st...@sea.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> ><hp...@lycos.com> wrote in message
> >news:38fe8b5d-a989-458a-9a96-a6bc9e2687f5@s9g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> >On Nov 17, 4:48 pm, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 12:01:18 -0800 (PST), "(David P.)"
>
> >> <imb...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >> >[I stole this article -- have me arrested for theft!]
>
> >> >W. Virginia town shrugs at poorest health ranking
>
> >> >By MIKE STOBBE (AP Medical Writer)
> >> >Nov 16, 2008
>
> >> >HUNTINGTON, W.Va. - As a portly woman
> >> >plodded ahead of him on the sidewalk,
> >> >the obese mayor of America's fattest
> >> >and unhealthiest city explained why
> >> >health is not a big local issue.
>
> >> >"It doesn't come up," said David
> >> >Felinton, 5-foot-9 and 233 pounds,
> >> >as he walked toward City Hall one
> >> >recent morning. "We've got a lot of
> >> >economic challenges here in Huntington.
> >> >That's usually the focus."
>
> >> >Huntington's economy has withered,
> >> >its poverty rate is worse than the
> >> >national average, and vagrants haunt
> >> >a downtown riverfront park. But this
> >> >city's financial woes are not nearly
> >> >as bad as its health.
>
> >> >Nearly half the adults in Huntington's
> >> >five-county metropolitan area are obese -
> >> >an astounding percentage, far bigger
> >> >than the national average in a country
> >> >with a well-known weight problem.
>
> >> >Huntington leads in a half-dozen other
> >> >illness measures, too, including heart
> >> >disease and diabetes. It's even tops
> >> >in the percentage of elderly people who
> >> >have lost all their teeth (half of them
> >> >have).
>
> >> >It's a sad situation, and a potential
> >> >harbinger of what will happen to other
> >> >U.S. communities, said Ken Thorpe, an
> >> >Emory University health policy professor
> >> >who's workin' with W. Virginia officials
> >> >on health reform legislation.
>
> >> >"They may be at the very top, but
> >> >obesity and diabetes trends are very
> >> >similar" in many other communities,
> >> >particularly in the South, Thorpe said.
>
> >> >The Huntington area's health problems,
> >> >cited in a U.S. health report, are a
> >> >terrible distinction for the city, but
> >> >the locals barely talk about it. Many
> >> >don't even know how poorly the city ranks.
>
> >> >Culture and history are at least part
> >> >of the problem, health officials say.
>
> >> >This city on the Ohio River is surrounded
> >> >by Appalachia's thinly populated hills.
> >> >It has long been a blue-collar, white-
> >> >skinned community - overwhelmingly people
> >> >of English, Irish and German ancestry.
>
> >> >For decades, Huntington thrived with the
> >> >coal mines to its south, as barges,
> >> >trucks and trains loaded with the black
> >> >fuel continually chugged into and past
> >> >the city. There were plenty of
> >> >manufacturing jobs in the chemical
> >> >industry and in glassworks, steel and
> >> >locomotive parts. Nearly 90,000 people
> >> >lived in the city in 1950.
>
> >> >The traditional diet was heavy with
> >> >fried foods, salt, gravy, sauces, and
> >> >fattier meats - dense with calories
> >> >burnt off through manual labor. Obesity
> >> >was not a worry then. Workplace injuries
> >> >were.
>
> >> >But as the coal industry modernized and
> >> >the economy changed, manufacturing jobs
> >> >left. The city's population is now fewer
> >> >than 50,000, and chronic diseases - many
> >> >of them connected to obesity - seem much
> >> >more common.
>
> >> >Shari Wiley is a nurse at St. Mary's
> >> >Regional Heart Institute in Huntington.
> >> >She runs a program that identifies heavy
> >> >school children and tries to teach them
> >> >better eating and exercise habits. The
> >> >effort began because of an alarming trend.
>
> >> >"A lot of the patients we were seeing
> >> >were getting heart attacks in their 30s.
> >> >They were requiring open heart surgery in
> >> >their 30s. And we were concerned because
> >> >it used to be you wouldn't see heart
> >> >patients come in until they were in their
> >> >50s," Wiley said.
>
> >> >The Huntington area's essentially tied with
> >> >a few other metro areas for proportion of
> >> >people who don't exercise (31 percent),
> >> >have heart disease (22 percent) and
> >> >diabetes (13 percent). The smoking rate
> >> >is pretty high, too, although not the worst.
>
> >> >However, the region is a clear-cut leader
> >> >in dental problems, with nearly half the
> >> >people age 65 and older saying they have
> >> >lost all their natural teeth. And no other
> >> >metro area comes close to Huntington's
> >> >adult obesity rate, according to the report
> >> >by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and
> >> >Prevention, based on data from 2006.
>
> >> >Perhaps fittingly, hospitals are now
> >> >Huntington's largest employers. Another
> >> >is Marshall University, home of the
> >> >"Thundering Herd" football team depicted
> >> >in the 2006 film "We Are Marshall" which
> >> >dominates local sports conversations.
>
> >> >The river runs along the edge of town,
> >> >but it's not a focal point. Marshall and
> >> >one of the city's remaining factories sit
> >> >to the east with several blocks of hotels
> >> >and office buildings farther west. A new
> >> >complex called Pullman Square - which
> >> >includes a movie theater and a Starbucks -
> >> >is trying to become a retail and dining
> >> >center and illustrates a transition to a
> >> >service economy.
>
> >> >The area's unemployment rate was about
> >> >5 percent in September, actually a bit
> >> >better than the 6.1 percent national
> >> >average that month. But often the jobs
> >> >are not high-paying. Many workers lack
> >> >health insurance, and corporate wellness
> >> >programs - common at large national
> >> >companies - are rare.
>
> >> >Poverty hovers, with the area rate at
> >> >19 percent, much higher than the national
> >> >average. In the hilly coal fields to the
> >> >South, people still live in houses or
> >> >trailers with drooping, battered roofs.
> >> >They stare hard at any stranger in a new
> >> >car. In Huntington and its outskirts,
> >> >many people think of exercise and healthy
> >> >eating as luxuries.
>
> >> >The economy needs to pick up "so people
> >> >can afford to get healthy," said Ronnie
> >> >Adkins, 67, a retired policeman, as he
> >> >sat one recent morning on the smoking
> >> >porch of the Jolly Pirate Donuts shop
> >> >on U.S. 60.
>
> >> >Doughnut shops don't help either, of course.
> >> >But breakfast pastry shops aren't the most
> >> >common outlets for fatty food. Pizza joints
> >> >are. They are seemingly on every block in
> >> >some parts of the city. The online Yellow
> >> >Pages lists more pizza places (nearly 200)
> >> >for the Huntington area than the entire
> >> >state of West Virginia has gyms and health
> >> >clubs (149).
>
> >> >Hot dog places also abound, with the city
> >> >hosting an annual hot dog festival every
> >> >summer. "I've never seen so many places
> >> >that are hot dog oriented. I guess it's
> >> >a cultural thing. Appalachian," said Mayor
> >> >Felinton, who grew up in Maryland and moved
> >> >to Huntington to attend Marshall University
> >> >and stayed put.
>
> >> >Fast food has become a staple, with many
> >> >residents convinced they can't afford to
> >> >buy healthier foods, said Keri Kennedy,
> >> >manager of the state health department's
> >> >Office of Healthy Lifestyles.
>
> >> >Kennedy said she'd just seen a commercial
> >> >that presented "The KFC $10 Challenge."
> >> >The fried-chicken chain placed a family
> >> >in a grocery store and challenged them to
> >> >put together a dinner for $10 or less that
> >> >was comparable to KFC's seven-piece, $9.99
> >> >value meal.
>
> >> >"This is what we're up agin'," said Kennedy,
> >> >noting it's an extremely persuasive ad for
> >> >a low-income family that is accustomed to
> >> >fried foods. "I dunno whatcha do t' counter't."
>
> >> >Lack of exercise is another concern. During
> >> >a warm and sunny autumn week in Huntington -
> >> >the kind of weather that would bring out
> >> >small armies of joggers in some cities -
> >> >it was unusual to see a runner or bicyclist.
> >> >The exercise that does occur is mostly
> >> >confined to a local YMCA, at campus
> >> >recreation facilities at Marshall, or at
> >> >Ritter Park in a tony neighborhood south
> >> >of downtown.
>
> >> >Some attribute the problem to crumbling
> >> >sidewalks in the city & a lack of walkways
> >> >along busy rural roads. Others blame it on
> >> >lack of motivation, as well as a cultural
> >> >attitude that never included exercise for
> >> >health.
>
> >> >There's a connection between education &
> >> >lack of exercise, 2, said Dr. T. Dannals,
> >> >a Huntington family physician.
>
> >> >"The undereducated don't know the value
> >> >of it. They don't have the drive for it.
> >> >There's a reason you're successful, you've
> >> >got drive. The same is true for exercise,"
> >> >said Dannals.
>
> >> >Dannals has been trying to change cultural
> >> >attitudes. The local newspaper has called
> >> >him "an exercise evangelist" for founding
> >> >the city's triathlon, marathon and other
> >> >projects designed to make exercise popular
> >> >and fun. He's also spearheading a riverfront
> >> >exercise trail project, called the Paul
> >> >Ambrose Trail for Health (PATH).
>
> >> >Ambrose was a Huntington physician who died
> >> >in the Sept. 11, 2001, jet that crashed
> >> >into the Pentagon. Just before he died,
> >> >he had been working on a U.S. Surgeon
> >> >General report on obesity, and was on the
> >> >plane that morning to attend an adolescent
> >> >obesity conference in Los Angeles.
>
> >> >But the PATH project, first proposed more
> >> >than a year ago, has yet to win the
> >> >necessary funding. The lack of support
> >> >is not surprising: Dannals can't even get
> >> >a company to sponsor the Huntington marathon.
>
> >> >Local politicians tend to be equally tepid
> >> >about improving health, said Dr. Harry Tweel,
> >> >director of the Cabell-Huntington Health
> >> >Department.
>
> >> >Smoking - a common sin in West Virginia -
> >> >has been hard to control, Tweel said. When
> >> >the health department tried to restrict
> >> >smoking in local bars and restaurants, a
> >> >group of local businesses fought it all
> >> >the way to the state Supreme Court. (The
> >> >restrictions were upheld in 2003.) Even
> >> >hospitals have fought smoking restrictions
> >> >in the past, Tweel said.
>
> >> >Other communities have taken more ambitious
> >> >steps to control the amount of fat in local
> >> >restaurant food. In July, the Los Angeles
> >> >City Council placed a moratorium on new fast
> >> >food restaurants in an impoverished area of
> >> >the city with above-average rates of obesity.
> >> >In 2006, New York City became the first U.S.
> >> >city to ban artificial trans fats in
> >> >restaurant foods. Other cities are
> >> >considering similar measures.
>
> >> >Forget it, Tweel said. Not in Huntington.
>
> >> >"You're mentioning areas (of the country)
> >> >that are well beyond this local region in
> >> >accepting that kind of change," said Tweel.
>
> >> >"People here have an attitude of 'You're
> >> >not going to tell me what I can eat.' The
> >> >cultural attitude is 'My parents ate that
> >> >and my grandparents ate that,'" he said.
>
> >> >Mayor Felinton echoed Tweel. Felinton
> >> >had stomach surgery last- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -...
>
> >> read more »
>
> >Sounds EXACTLY like where I live in Kentucky, especially the attitude part.
> >I've never seen so many people with bellies that slap their thighs, and the
> >saddest thing is you see their kids, still in grade school, already wheezing
> >from their weight.
> >:(
>
> I think the morbidly obese should be denied medical benefits unless
> they demonstrate that they are on a serious weigth loss program.
> Overall, negroes and hispanics have worst stats nationwide.
>
> ted- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

In GB, under the NHS regulations, those who mistreat their bodies like
that do not get on the
waiting list for transplants until they show some interest in helping
themself..
I wish it was like that with our government versions of NHS.
Would you want a fat slob to get one if you needed it but he was ahead
of you?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Obama gets it! Oil is FINITE, regardless of current price.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/5b131e99a30a9010?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 4:31 pm
From: Jeff

hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Nov 19, 12:48 am, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>> hot-ham-and-che...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> On Nov 17, 11:40 am, Enough Already <enough_alre...@lycos.com> wrote:
>>>> It was inspiring to hear President-elect Obama say this during a 60
>>>> Minutes interview:
>>>> [quote]
>>>> (CBS) Kroft: When the price of oil was at $147 a barrel, there were a
>>>> lot of spirited and profitable discussions that were held on energy
>>>> independence. Now you've got the price of oil under $60.
>>>> Mr. Obama: Right.
>>> Uh, wrong. O'bama didn't get the price under $60 per barrel.
>> Such answers make the right seem more brain dead than you actually are.
>
> That you accept blatant lies makes you seem exactly as brain dead as
> you actually are.

Your mind is closed. Of course Obama had nothing to do with the fall in
oil prices. Bush is both the reason for the extraordinary rise and then
the subsequent collapse of oil. The first was conscious, the second an
unintended consequence of Bush economics.

No small matter that Obama won the vote of those making more than
$100,000.
>
>> If you read what you snipped then you'll see that no such implication
>> was made:
>
<snip>
>> Kroft: Why?
>>
>> Mr. Obama: Well, because this has been our pattern. We go from shock
>> to trance. You know, oil prices go up, gas prices at the pump go up,
>> everybody goes into a flurry of activity. And then the prices go back
>> down and suddenly we act like it's not important, and we start, you
>> know filling up our SUVs again.
>>

This is absolutely accurate.

>> And, as a consequence, we never make any progress. It's part of the
>> addiction, all right. That has to be broken. Now is the time to break
>> it.
>>
>> [end quote]
>>
>> Jeff
>
> You mean when Bush said we were addicted to oil it meant nothing.
> When O'bama says we are addicted to oil it means something.

Nothing Bush says means anything.

Name one thing W said that was more than just words being spoken.

Was it the ownership society?
Was that we would get binLaden?
Was it that the economy is strong?
Was it, heckuva job Brownie.

Never has a president of any party been such a poor steward of the
government.

If you look at the picks that Obama has made you will see that he is
going for competence, a nice change from W's Texas buds.

>
> I understand where you are coming from.

You understand nothing beyond your preconceived notions.

Jeff

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How you can save fuel and the environment
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/29147f37f33b890a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 5:42 pm
From: "Lou"

<corgorant@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:383a2b57-a9b6-469d-b5f5-6dee6da3e602@l33g2000pri.googlegroups.com...

(snipped)

>the air conditioning myth has already been tested and debunked. you
>save a negligible amount of fuel, and the change in your car's
>aerodynamics caused by your open windows increases drag, which
>increases fuel consumption.

On the contrary - tests conducted by the SAE have shown that air
conditioning in general use more gas than rolling down the windows, on the
test vehicles at any rate. See
http://www.sae.org/events/aars/presentations/2004-hill.pdf for instance - I
think the most telling part is the graphs on pages 14 and 15.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Doorbell always uses electricity!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/3198294a289e9e57?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 6:21 pm
From: "Bill"

Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using
electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like
TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks, plug-in phones,
etc.

These things add up...

I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the doorbell
button is pressed! Thus the transformer is off most of the time now.

I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga. romex from
this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass blank wall
plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed a 120V momentary push
switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch on the transformer when the
button is pressed. Then connected the two wires which were going to the old
button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power from the
transformer.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 6:39 pm
From: Red Green

"Bill" <billnomailnospamx@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:6ojvt2F41153U1@mid.individual.net:

> Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using
> electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this
> like TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks, plug-in
> phones, etc.
>
> These things add up...
>
> I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the
> doorbell button is pressed! Thus the transformer is off most of the
> time now.
>
> I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga.
> romex from this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass
> blank wall plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed a 120V
> momentary push switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch on the
> transformer when the button is pressed. Then connected the two wires
> which were going to the old button so the doorbell would ring as soon
> as it receives power from the transformer.
>
>
>

It's probably stamped right on it but I never looked. Any idea how many
watts it's uses in it's standby state?

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 6:44 pm
From: Mikepier

On Nov 19, 9:21 pm, "Bill" <billnomailnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using
> electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like
> TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks, plug-in phones,
> etc.
>
> These things add up...
>
> I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the doorbell
> button is pressed! Thus the transformer is off most of the time now.
>
> I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga. romex from
> this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass blank wall
> plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed a 120V momentary push
> switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch on the transformer when the
> button is pressed. Then connected the two wires which were going to the old
> button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power from the
> transformer.

Congratulations, you've just saved yourself 25 cents a year in
electricity.
Not to mention it might not be safe if someone is standing on wet
pavement and they gey shocked by 120V.
You probably spent more in the material than if you let the Xfmr stay
on for 20 years.
Now how are you going to deal with the TV, fridge, phone, alarm clock,
microwave. Wait don't forget VCR/DVD player, cable box, heating
system, computer, sprinkler timer,

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 6:47 pm
From: Seerialmom

On Nov 19, 6:21 pm, "Bill" <billnomailnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using
> electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like
> TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks, plug-in phones,
> etc.
>
> These things add up...
>
> I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the doorbell
> button is pressed! Thus the transformer is off most of the time now.
>
> I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga. romex from
> this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass blank wall
> plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed a 120V momentary push
> switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch on the transformer when the
> button is pressed. Then connected the two wires which were going to the old
> button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power from the
> transformer.

My first thought when reading this was "ok...so we'd save a few
pennies a month". But I investigated and found a rather interesting
read related to your theory where the author actually tested the
doorbell transformer using a Kill-A-Watt:

http://www.newenglandbreeze.com/nl/TEM20080901.html

Luckily my doorbell isn't lighted, so it's probably not worth my time
and effort to change.

==============================================================================

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "misc.consumers.frugal-living"
group.

To post to this group, visit http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to misc.consumers.frugal-living+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com

To change the way you get mail from this group, visit:
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/subscribe?hl=en

To report abuse, send email explaining the problem to abuse@googlegroups.com

==============================================================================
Google Groups: http://groups.google.com/?hl=en

Frugal Living

Blog Archive

Wednesday, November 19, 2008

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 10 topics - digest

No comments: