http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en
misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com
Today's topics:
* Is keeping a car 50 years frugal? - 3 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/973c7ade053ebb0f?hl=en
* Folks, this is a real depression, protect your assets - 4 messages, 2
authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/cb1cc803cf7130ab?hl=en
* Why not a holiday from auto buying? - 3 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/9e36c73bdf3daf50?hl=en
* 533,000 Jobs Lost While Feds Import 140,000 Foreign Workers! - 12 messages,
4 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/a1526898a9ebc1d2?hl=en
* Tax Fraud, cancer, and the IRS - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/78b4d9d9aca35c0e?hl=en
* Miss Manners on credit cards and protective clerks/managers - 1 messages, 1
author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/d050e2dac2223a44?hl=en
* How Odin Became Santa Claus: Symbolism and Pagan Origins of a Gift-Giving
Saint - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/915677537a9d5af4?hl=en
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Is keeping a car 50 years frugal?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/973c7ade053ebb0f?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 12:06 pm
From: Jeff
Vic Smith wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 08:54:25 -0800, The Real Bev
> <bashley101+M@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Daniel T. wrote:
>>> "h" <tmclone@searchmachine.com> wrote:
>>>> "Daniel T." <daniel_t@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>> "'nam vet." <georgewkspam@humboldt1.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> It's going on 47 next year. should I keep it? What if I buy a
>>>>>> ford and they go under. warrantee, parts service?
>>>>> How much does your 47 year old car cost you over the next year?
>>>>> Over the next 5 years? Over the next 10 years? Compare that to the
>>>>> cost of a new car...
>>>> Assuming the OP isn't trolling, I'll bet the 47 year old car was
>>>> built to last and might very well be worth keeping on the road until
>>>> it dies.
>>> What does "dies" mean in this context?
>> Something essential that can't be replaced breaks. Case in point: leaf
>> springs for a 1960 Ford station wagon. The ones in the wrecking yard
>> are just as rotten as the ones you have and you can't find any new ones
>> no matter how hard you look.
>
> Just not looking in the right place.
> You can get a leaf spring set up in many spring shops for just about
> any car. Won't be as cheap as bone yard springs, but not very
> expensive either. One of my kids works in such a shop, oddly enough
> called Spring Align.
I agree. I've got a shop right in my neighborhood that does nothing
but make leaf springs.
Must be a lot of them around.
> Frame rot is the only real killer for most cars.
> But when too much cancer hits the body, it might be more frugal to
> replace the car.
If you love the car, you can keep it alive for a long time. If you
don't, a bad tranny or an engine rebuild or a bad fender will finish it off.
Jeff
>
> --Vic
>
== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 12:20 pm
From: Vic Smith
On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 15:06:41 -0500, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>
> If you love the car, you can keep it alive for a long time. If you
>don't, a bad tranny or an engine rebuild or a bad fender will finish it off.
>
Had an '88 Celebrity I loved. Junked it in 2002 because of body rot.
190k miles. If the rest was good I would have gladly popped $3-4k
for a new engine or tranny if it needed it.
But the body work would cost at least that.
Still ran well, but everything was old, and where do you stop?
Sometimes you just have to let go.
--Vic
== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 1:09 pm
From: OldRoads
On Dec 8, 3:20 pm, Vic Smith <thismailautodele...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 15:06:41 -0500, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>
> > If you love the car, you can keep it alive for a long time. If you
> >don't, a bad tranny or an engine rebuild or a bad fender will finish it off.
>
> Had an '88 Celebrity I loved. Junked it in 2002 because of body rot.
> 190k miles. If the rest was good I would have gladly popped $3-4k
> for a new engine or tranny if it needed it.
> But the body work would cost at least that.
> Still ran well, but everything was old, and where do you stop?
> Sometimes you just have to let go.
>
> --Vic
Up until a couple years ago our shop truck was a 1946. We used it for
a couple decades and it didn't cost much in repairs, parts were still
available and it was great advertising.
Safety was the big problem: drum brakes, vaccum wipers, no defroster,
etc.
I was cheap to run, though.
Vin - Menotomy Vintage Bicycles
http://OldRoads.com
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Folks, this is a real depression, protect your assets
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/cb1cc803cf7130ab?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 12:25 pm
From: "Dave"
>
>> Great. When unemployment goes over 50%, who is going to need roads and
>> bridges to get to boarded-up factories and office parks?
>
> You assume facts not in evidence. If indeed, unemployment goes over 50%,
> there will be huge problems.
Expect huge problems. Current unemployment is about 17% (and misreported as
close to 7%). Forecasts are for unemployment to go much higher. 50% is not
out of reach. I will be shocked if we don't shatter 25% unemployment in the
U.S. before 2010 (even though it will probably be misreported as 12-13%),
and mildly surprised if we can avoid 50% before 2011.
> If that is your only response, then you are
> not really worth the time it takes to read your posts.
You'd rather bury your head in the sand and hope for the best? Hey, my
viewpoint is optimistic. Sorry if it scares you.
> Your response seems to be the same: Hiring people to build infrastructure
> will not lessen unemployment.
Ummmm...how to say this gently? It is also a pyramid scheme. We can't
artificially create jobs (like government improving infrastructure), because
we need EMPLOYED people to pay taxes to do so!!! This is so obvious, it
shouldn't even need to be pointed out to someone who can THINK.
>> > What if the rail systems were
>> > modernized?
>
>> A rail system is a vacuum which sucks up all the commuters' money to
>> subsidize cheap tickets for the very few people who want to use it.
>
> I was thinking of rail for transport of goods.
Not a bad idea, if we had thousands of trillions of dollars to maintain
current lines and build new ones. I saw an estimate somewhere on how much
money we'd have to spend just to MAINTAIN current rail lines which are
(currently) near peak capacity. I don't remember the exact figure, but it
had a lot of zeros. Basically, to improve the rail system, we'd have to
throw more money at the rail system than we've thrown at the fiasco in Iraq.
> If you look at reality, the Bosotn MBTA has had record ridership since gas
> prices soared. The increase has abated, but has not gone down to
> pre-increase levels.
And outside of urban areas like Boston? There are a few urban areas where
light rail almost (but doesn't) makes sense. Even in THOSE few areas,
ticket prices do not begin to reflect operating costs. If the riders of
light rail had to pay to maintain the light rail (reflected in MUCH higher
ticket costs), light rail would die a gruesome death, literally overnight.
And that would be true with gasoline at $10/gallon. Most of the cost of
operating light rail is paid by people who never go near the light rail
system.
>
> If you haven't noticed, the vast majority of busiesses have stayed in
> business.
Oh yeah, the ones that aren't planning chapter 11 soon are slashing jobs to
avoid filing chapter 11. I guess if you only need to lay off 70% of your
workforce, you are "still in business" though. :)
>> There is nothing "wrong" with improving infrastructure. But that, by
>> itself, won't increase employment.
>
> By itself? Why do you conceive things in a vacuum?
>
Ask Obama. IT'S HIS PLAN. -Dave
== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 12:42 pm
From: EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com
In misc.survivalism Dave <noway@nohow.not> wrote:
> >
> >> Great. When unemployment goes over 50%, who is going to need roads and
> >> bridges to get to boarded-up factories and office parks?
> >
> > You assume facts not in evidence. If indeed, unemployment goes over 50%,
> > there will be huge problems.
> Expect huge problems. Current unemployment is about 17% (and misreported as
> close to 7%). Forecasts are for unemployment to go much higher. 50% is not
> out of reach. I will be shocked if we don't shatter 25% unemployment in the
> U.S. before 2010 (even though it will probably be misreported as 12-13%),
> and mildly surprised if we can avoid 50% before 2011.
> > If that is your only response, then you are
> > not really worth the time it takes to read your posts.
> You'd rather bury your head in the sand and hope for the best? Hey, my
> viewpoint is optimistic. Sorry if it scares you.
No. I'd rather hear about why an economic stimulus program which
increases future profitabilty of America's business is doomed to failure.
That is your position. But you haven't explained your viewpoint.
> Ummmm...how to say this gently? It is also a pyramid scheme. We can't
> artificially create jobs (like government improving infrastructure), because
> we need EMPLOYED people to pay taxes to do so!!! This is so obvious, it
> shouldn't even need to be pointed out to someone who can THINK.
You ignore the temporal dimension. Generally, the idea is to hire people
NOW, builing infrastructure, who will have money to spend at businesses
which will employ even more people, and who will employ even more in the
future, once the infrastructure icreases their profitability.
--
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
-- Bertrand Russel
== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 1:32 pm
From: EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com
In misc.survivalism Dave <noway1@noway2.not> wrote:
> <EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com> wrote in message
> news:ghbclh$4b0$3@reader1.panix.com...
> > In misc.survivalism Dave <noway1@noway2.not> wrote:
> >
> > > With a budget imbalance of trillions, how do you propose increasing
> spending
> > > without increasing taxes? Just print more money?
> >
> > Generally, spending is increased without increasing income by borrowing
> > money.
> >
> OK. I'll be gentle here, and assume that you just haven't done the math.
> You speak about borrowing money like it's OK.
I said nothing about the relative merits of borrowing vs. any other
method.
--
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
-- Bertrand Russel
== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 4:17 pm
From: "Dave"
>> Ummmm...how to say this gently? It is also a pyramid scheme. We can't
>> artificially create jobs (like government improving infrastructure),
>> because
>> we need EMPLOYED people to pay taxes to do so!!! This is so obvious, it
>> shouldn't even need to be pointed out to someone who can THINK.
>
> You ignore the temporal dimension.
Oh I see... we are discussing the U.S. as it exists in an alternate
dimension. I feel so much better now, I thought I was the only intelligent
being left. Turns out, I AM the only one left in this dimension, but I can
live with that.
> Generally, the idea is to hire people
> NOW, builing infrastructure, who will have money to spend at businesses
> which will employ even more people, and who will employ even more in the
> future, once the infrastructure icreases their profitability.
Well in an alternate dimension, it just might work. Ummm, nope, I don't
think it will work, not even in your alternate dimension. Again, it is a
pyramid scheme. You can't tax the people ENOUGH to support it. Eventually,
the tax rate would need to be something in excess of 100% as you'd get to
the point where you have (more people unemployed and working for the
government) than you have employed by private companies.
In other words, if your gross wages are $2,000 per week, we'll have to tax
you $4,000 per week to make your infrastructure improvements. That sound
like a good idea to you? -Dave
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Why not a holiday from auto buying?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/9e36c73bdf3daf50?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 12:30 pm
From: Dennis
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 17:26:21 -0500, George <george@nospam.invalid>
wrote:
>I hoped someone would mention that. You just have to laugh when people
>who drink either red or blue kool-aid get upset about the -other- party
>when the reality is all of the politicians are owned by the fat cats and
>special interests. The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act is a perfect example of
>that. The red congress created it and the blue president supported and
>signed it. And it met the intended result. The fat cats were free to do
>almost anything they wanted generating remarkably similar results to the
>great depression.
I agree 100%. There are a few mcfl regulars who insist on framing
everything as "My Party Good -- Your Party Evil", when the truth is
that most all politicians are in the pocket of the same masters.
Dennis (evil)
--
An inherent weakness of a pure democracy is that half
the voters are below average intelligence.
== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 1:15 pm
From: OldRoads
On Dec 7, 4:48 pm, denni...@dennism3.invalid (Dennis M) wrote:
>
> I ran across a GM infocommercial for Buick/Pontiac/GMC this morning, never
> seen them do that before.
Yeah, GM is already spending the bailout money we shouldn't give them.
Every GM car I've owned has been junk.
Instead of spending money on R&D and making a better vehicle, they
spend it on advertising and selling silly stuff like their "OnStar"
emergency monitoring.
Vin - Menotomy Vintage Bicycles
http://OldRoads.com
== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 1:31 pm
From: Galen Hekhuis
On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 13:15:58 -0800 (PST), OldRoads
<oldroads@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Dec 7, 4:48 pm, denni...@dennism3.invalid (Dennis M) wrote:
>
>>
>> I ran across a GM infocommercial for Buick/Pontiac/GMC this morning, never
>> seen them do that before.
>
>
>Yeah, GM is already spending the bailout money we shouldn't give them.
>Every GM car I've owned has been junk.
>Instead of spending money on R&D and making a better vehicle, they
>spend it on advertising and selling silly stuff like their "OnStar"
>emergency monitoring.
>
>Vin - Menotomy Vintage Bicycles
>http://OldRoads.com
Makes it pretty obvious the problem is with the managers, not the
workers.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: 533,000 Jobs Lost While Feds Import 140,000 Foreign Workers!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/a1526898a9ebc1d2?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 12:47 pm
From: RickH
On Dec 7, 9:59 pm, Mike <M...@localdoman.localhost> wrote:
> On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 17:45:38 -0600, HeyBub wrote:
> > Mike wrote:
>
> >> the decline in the value of computer programming careers was the
> >> natural result of the rise of microsoft because the smart programmers
> >> refused to be caged by the lame ass windows environment and went off to
> >> find greener pastures elsewhere. another reason is that venture
> >> capitalists don't like funding software projects for which, on the off
> >> chance one actually becomes highly successful, the profits will all
> >> wind up in the hands of a highly predatory monopolistic law firm that
> >> specializes in violating antitrust (ie. msft).
>
> > Quite possibly. Programmers are like dentists - technically oriented,
> > scientifically trained, but also artists. Every sterotype of the beatnik
> > living in a garret in Greenwich Village holds for (most) programmers,
> > even if they wear three-piece suits in a commercial environment.
>
> > I've seen programs that didn't work, wouldn't work, and couldn't be made
> > to work, but were revered because of the style, elegance, and cleverness
> > of the author.
>
> > On the other hand, what's a "smart" programmer? The programmers who
> > started with Microsoft in the early years, and stuck it out, are
> > multimillionaires. Of course they were not true to their own natures,
> > sinned against the basic beauty of the machine-man interaction, and
> > degenerated into venal slugs - but they retired at age 30 on a 60-foot
> > yacht.
>
> > They had no shame.
>
> there's very little evidence that msft ever had any good programmers
> judging by product quality which is as bad as it gets. sure they
> eventually developed an os that doesn't crash every 10 minutes but that
> was written by what, one or two programmers? how many tens of $billions
> of monopoly profits obtained by highly predatory monopolistic antitrust
> violating activities did it take for that to happen? not to mention how
> many decades behind the technology curve they were in implementing the
> core of a stable system (ie. memory management), twenty years at least
> behind what was standard in computer science, not to mention the plethora
> of systems already using the technology. no, msft's millionaires didn't
> come from technology, it came from sales/marketing and a whole lot of
> antitrust violating "innovation". now that's not to say that there
> weren't any msft millionaires that had the title of "programmer", but
> their success is more properly attributed to being in the right place at
> the right time (under the astronomically huge waterfall of antitrust
> violating monopoly profits) because in the real world (outside of the
> fiction created within the walls of msft) applications like talking
> paperclips & "microsoft bob" just don't cut it. so the point being that
> all the programmers that didn't happen to be working for msft could see
> the writing on the wall, and the smart ones reacted accordingly...- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
My original post was in reference to general-purpose-computers being
programmed for corporate applications. It is irrelavent if those
computers are Microsoft, IBM, Apple, Linux, Unix, etc based. Large
companies for the most part have moved much of the application
development work offshore. Leaving IT professionals in the US no
longer writing code, but instead integrating and testing code received
from India. These jobs are low-skilled compared to those who write
code and must keep up with technology. The next wave of IT outsorcing
will be in the areas of hardware and network management. Eventually
systems analysis and business analysis work will also be outsourced.
Microsoft, IBM, Sun have nothing to do with the offshoring of work as
a direct result of law suits, they too are doing it for cheap highly-
skilled labor. If anything IBM has been far more guilty than
Microsoft of offshoring the IT industry, the US is on the decline in
Information Technology. Even the large US consulting firms like
Accenture and CSC offshore the work when they land a large contract
with a big US company. The "Microsoft writes bad code argument" holds
no water as Microsoft is getting blown offshore by the same economic
forces blowing all the IT work offshore.
I would think that medical work like MRI reading, etc will also go
offshore as the data can be quickly turned around.
== 2 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 12:51 pm
From: RickH
On Dec 7, 11:12 pm, patmpow...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Dec 8, 7:45 am, "HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I've seen programs that didn't work, wouldn't work, and couldn't be made to
> > work, but were revered because of the style, elegance, and cleverness of the
> > author.
>
> That I have never seen.
Same here. I've been in the field 30 years and I've never seen that
either, maybe in academia, but in the real world programs that abend
are garbage, despised and never revered. The cleverness of their
authors is more often a source of giggle and managers who say "lets
make this guy our QA testing guy, just dont let him code anymore".
== 3 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 1:20 pm
From: "HeyBub"
RickH wrote:
> On Dec 7, 11:12 pm, patmpow...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Dec 8, 7:45 am, "HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> I've seen programs that didn't work, wouldn't work, and couldn't be
>>> made to work, but were revered because of the style, elegance, and
>>> cleverness of the author.
>>
>> That I have never seen.
>
> Same here. I've been in the field 30 years and I've never seen that
> either, maybe in academia, but in the real world programs that abend
> are garbage, despised and never revered. The cleverness of their
> authors is more often a source of giggle and managers who say "lets
> make this guy our QA testing guy, just dont let him code anymore".
My last job as a contract programmer was to create a report. They gave me
the file layout.
"In what order are the data," I naively asked.
"Oh, it depends on what we did to it last," was the answer.
"(!!!) Uh, you mean you sort the master file?" asked I.
"Sure," said they.
That's not the only example of how stupid they* were. They paid me so much
money I had to have a dump truck to carry it to the bank.
---
* A division of A.C. Nielson (the TV-rating people).
== 4 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 1:46 pm
From: clams_casino
suds macheath wrote:
> clams_casino wrote:
>
>> suds macheath wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Why haven't you jumped on the gravy train, if it's such a cushy job?
>>> Can't cut it?
>>
>>
>>
>> Never considered it when I was younger. It would be a serious
>> consideration if I was entering college today.
>>
>> My brother switched to a teaching career when he was about forty.
>> He thoroughly enjoys those 12 week summer vacations
>
>
> ---except for the fact you don't get paid for the "summer
> vacations"....teachers are paid for 10 months....
>
> as well as the extra
>
>> holiday and mid winter breaks. He admits the job has its ups and
>> downs, but it's primarily the administration rather than the kids
>> that are the problem. Nevertheless, he has claims to have no
>> regrets dumping the 40+ hr corporate job. If nothing else, his job
>> will never be out source,
>
>
> ----If the tax base falls it will....
>
> plus the health and retirement benefits are outstanding.
>
> -----Really? He started at forty, he'll get full retirement at 70?
Of course it won't be a full pension, but considering how few companies
even have pensions anymore (or have significantly reduced them), it's a
moot point..
== 5 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 1:50 pm
From: clams_casino
BobR wrote:
>On Dec 8, 8:15 am, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>>locally teachers with 10 years experience are making just under a 100
>>grand ......
>>
>>way more than the average pay of residents
>>
>>looks like national unemployment will go to over 10%
>>
>>bushes legacy costs are going to be killers
>>
>>
>
>That may be true where you live but that is far from the case
>elsewhere. Where I live, teachers with 10 years experience are lucky
>to make $40k per year.
>
>
Here, they typically receive $100k with benefits. An average of $60k
in wages.
== 6 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 2:02 pm
From: clams_casino
suds macheath wrote:
> clams_casino wrote:
>
>> suds macheath wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> In PA the union teachers have an ultra deluxe Blue Cross health
>>>> plan that was crafted especially just for them. There is zero
>>>> possibility for out of pocket expense.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---They don't pay premiums for their families?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Not much around here. Full family coverage was 100% covered until
>> recent years, but now they are paying about 5%.
>
>
> ----I find that hard to believe....I have the same plan as the
> teachers and my premium's around $650 month....plus deductibles for
> any hospital stays...
RI has 36 school districts- "33 of the state's 36 districts required
some form of cost sharing"
"In the 2006-2007 school year, three districts — East Providence, New
Shoreham and Pawtucket — still did not require teachers to pay a cent
toward their health premium, which cost taxpayers an average of $13,500
for a family plan and $5,200 for an individual plan statewide". "In
contrast, teachers in Barrington and Coventry paid 15 percent last year
— or about $2,000 a year for a family plan."
"Last year, teachers in 17 districts paid less than $1,000 a year toward
their family plan. Teachers in 20 districts paid $540 a year or less for
individual coverage."
== 7 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 3:01 pm
From: suds macheath
George wrote:
> suds macheath wrote:
>> clams_casino wrote:
>>> suds macheath wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why haven't you jumped on the gravy train, if it's such a cushy job?
>>>> Can't cut it?
>>>
>>>
>>> Never considered it when I was younger. It would be a serious
>>> consideration if I was entering college today.
>>>
>>> My brother switched to a teaching career when he was about forty.
>>> He thoroughly enjoys those 12 week summer vacations
>>
>> ---except for the fact you don't get paid for the "summer
>> vacations"....teachers are paid for 10 months....
>
>
> Sure they do.
----No, they don't. They are 10 month employees. They get paid over the
summer months if they have their 10 month pay divided evenly over 12
months...the summer months are *not* paid vacation days.
It is a salaried position and the pay is quoted at an
> annual rate. They just happen to only need to actually show up for 40
> weeks/year. In our states public schools they can choose to be paid
> their salary/52 or salary/40 to reflect the time that they actually need
> to show up. The salary/40 payment method is from older days when people
> were paid with physical checks.
----Uh, until *very* recently (this year), they *were* paid with
physical checks. Teachers that had direct deposit had a plan with the
credit union that divided their pay evenly over 12 months.
== 8 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 3:03 pm
From: suds macheath
clams_casino wrote:
> suds macheath wrote:
>
>> clams_casino wrote:
>>
>>> suds macheath wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why haven't you jumped on the gravy train, if it's such a cushy job?
>>>> Can't cut it?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Never considered it when I was younger. It would be a serious
>>> consideration if I was entering college today.
----But, you would be making considerably less than 60k a
year...probably about half that....
>>>
>>> My brother switched to a teaching career when he was about forty.
>>> He thoroughly enjoys those 12 week summer vacations
>>
>>
>> ---except for the fact you don't get paid for the "summer
>> vacations"....teachers are paid for 10 months....
>>
>> as well as the extra
>>
>>> holiday and mid winter breaks. He admits the job has its ups and
>>> downs, but it's primarily the administration rather than the kids
>>> that are the problem. Nevertheless, he has claims to have no
>>> regrets dumping the 40+ hr corporate job. If nothing else, his job
>>> will never be out source,
>>
>>
>> ----If the tax base falls it will....
>>
>> plus the health and retirement benefits are outstanding.
>>
>> -----Really? He started at forty, he'll get full retirement at 70?
>
>
> Of course it won't be a full pension, but considering how few companies
> even have pensions anymore (or have significantly reduced them), it's a
> moot point..
---There once was a fox, strolling through a vineyard......
== 9 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 3:06 pm
From: clams_casino
suds macheath wrote:
> George wrote:
>
>> suds macheath wrote:
>>
>>> clams_casino wrote:
>>>
>>>> suds macheath wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Why haven't you jumped on the gravy train, if it's such a cushy job?
>>>>> Can't cut it?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Never considered it when I was younger. It would be a serious
>>>> consideration if I was entering college today.
>>>>
>>>> My brother switched to a teaching career when he was about forty.
>>>> He thoroughly enjoys those 12 week summer vacations
>>>
>>>
>>> ---except for the fact you don't get paid for the "summer
>>> vacations"....teachers are paid for 10 months....
>>
>>
>>
>> Sure they do.
>
>
> ----No, they don't. They are 10 month employees. They get paid over
> the summer months if they have their 10 month pay divided evenly over
> 12 months...the summer months are *not* paid vacation days.
So how is that different from a 52 week salary with 5 weeks vacation?
(Other than an extra seven weeks off.)
== 10 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 3:09 pm
From: clams_casino
suds macheath wrote:
> clams_casino wrote:
>
>> suds macheath wrote:
>>
>>> clams_casino wrote:
>>>
>>>> suds macheath wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Why haven't you jumped on the gravy train, if it's such a cushy job?
>>>>> Can't cut it?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Never considered it when I was younger. It would be a serious
>>>> consideration if I was entering college today.
>>>
>
> ----But, you would be making considerably less than 60k a
> year...probably about half that....
>
>>>>
>>>> My brother switched to a teaching career when he was about forty.
>>>> He thoroughly enjoys those 12 week summer vacations
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---except for the fact you don't get paid for the "summer
>>> vacations"....teachers are paid for 10 months....
>>>
>>> as well as the extra
>>>
>>>> holiday and mid winter breaks. He admits the job has its ups and
>>>> downs, but it's primarily the administration rather than the kids
>>>> that are the problem. Nevertheless, he has claims to have no
>>>> regrets dumping the 40+ hr corporate job. If nothing else, his
>>>> job will never be out source,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----If the tax base falls it will....
>>>
>>> plus the health and retirement benefits are outstanding.
>>>
>>> -----Really? He started at forty, he'll get full retirement at 70?
>>
>>
>>
>> Of course it won't be a full pension, but considering how few
>> companies even have pensions anymore (or have significantly reduced
>> them), it's a moot point..
>
>
> ---There once was a fox, strolling through a vineyard......
I'm not sure what that means, but his previous job had no pension, so
the teacher's pension (no matter how large) is gravy. I don't know the
specifics of his pension, but most grant pensions at age 60-65
regardless of years service.
== 11 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 3:14 pm
From: suds macheath
clams_casino wrote:
> suds macheath wrote:
>
>> clams_casino wrote:
>>
>>> suds macheath wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In PA the union teachers have an ultra deluxe Blue Cross health
>>>>> plan that was crafted especially just for them. There is zero
>>>>> possibility for out of pocket expense.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---They don't pay premiums for their families?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Not much around here. Full family coverage was 100% covered until
>>> recent years, but now they are paying about 5%.
>>
>>
>> ----I find that hard to believe....I have the same plan as the
>> teachers and my premium's around $650 month....plus deductibles for
>> any hospital stays...
>
>
> RI has 36 school districts- "33 of the state's 36 districts required
> some form of cost sharing"
>
> "In the 2006-2007 school year, three districts — East Providence, New
> Shoreham and Pawtucket — still did not require teachers to pay a cent
> toward their health premium, which cost taxpayers an average of $13,500
> for a family plan and $5,200 for an individual plan statewide". "In
> contrast, teachers in Barrington and Coventry paid 15 percent last year
> — or about $2,000 a year for a family plan."
>
> "Last year, teachers in 17 districts paid less than $1,000 a year toward
> their family plan. Teachers in 20 districts paid $540 a year or less for
> individual coverage."
>
---In Miami Dade, the 4th largest district nationally, I pay a family
rate of over $2K a year.....and 20% of any hospital costs....we have the
same plan as teachers....
== 12 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 3:36 pm
From: suds macheath
George wrote:
> suds macheath wrote:
>> George wrote:
>>> clams_casino wrote:
>>>> suds macheath wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> clams_casino wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> John Galt wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But, why would a retired engineer want to get up at 6AM and be
>>>>>>> grading papers in front of the TV at night for 30K per year?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What teacher gets $30k /yr other than perhaps newly hired, just
>>>>>> out of college? Here, they are paid an AVERAGE of $60k
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----How many of those have doctorates or masters degrees, and have
>>>>> been teaching for 20+ years? All of them?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's the average. Those with masters tend to be paid $75k and
>>>> up. I'm not too sure many at the elementary / Jr high / High
>>>> school level have doctorates.
>>>>
>>>> http://cspf.wordpress.com/2007/02/07/questioning-teacher-salaries-2/
>>>> is a typical RI situation. Granted, teachers put in much over time,
>>>> but but salary position doesn't?
>>>
>>> In my state that would be teachers. In my state the most powerful
>>> labor union is the PSEA which represents the public school teachers.
>>>
>>> Most of my jobs have been salaried and I have a comparable eduction
>>> to a teacher. I have a number of friends and relatives who are teachers.
>>>
>>> A typical teacher works six hours/day here. It is pretty unusual for
>>> them to take work home since they have a 1 hour study period where
>>> they can also do grading.
----Depends what they're grading.....let's say 5 periods a day, 30
students per period, that's 150 students a day.....do you think you
could read 150 essays in an hour? Along with gradebooks and calls to
parents of discipline problems? And, not all teachers have a planning
period, some have 6 periods a day.....
If a new teacher works harder they are
>>> quietly pulled and the side and told to cut it out and follow
>>> whatever is in the workbooks.
----Hearsay....
Their union contracts require that at
>>> least two teachers must be present for any event be it a bake sale or
>>> sporting competition. They get an additional $150 each for up to 2
>>> hours for this.
----I'm sure the AP's would like to get on that gravy train. Here, an AP
at a school function, no matter how long, makes $20....that's right
$20...I'm the one that paid them at sports events....teachers may make
supplemental pay for coaching a sports team, but it's peanuts, less than
$1K a year, I believe...
>>
>>
>> ----Sounds too good to be true....why aren't you on the gravy train.....
>
>
> Just stating the facts which have absolutely nothing to do with the
> personal choice of anyone.
-----Sounds a little like sour grapes to me.....teachers are stealing
our money! Maybe you need to sub for a week, get a little experience....
I'm betting you go home with a splitting headache most days....
>>>> What corporation provides 12 weeks vacation per year? Other than
>>>> UAW and government employees, I'm not aware of many paying full (or
>>>> even 90%) health coverage.
>>>
>>> In PA the union teachers have an ultra deluxe Blue Cross health plan
>>> that was crafted especially just for them. There is zero possibility
>>> for out of pocket expense.
>>
>> ---They don't pay premiums for their families?
>
>
> No, all family members are covered
----Really? I pay over $2K per year in premiums, and 20% of any hospital
costs....and, that's the bargain basement HMO plan. I have the same plan
as the teachers...
and even better if a spouse also
> happens to be a teacher they get the 1,800/month paid directly to them.
-----Doesn't happen here....
>
>>
>> This costs us over $1,800/month for each teacher.
>>> And as you stated they get 12 weeks paid vacation,
>>
>> ---They don't get paid for the summer months, do they? It takes years
>> to build up 60 vacation days....
>
> Sure they do.
----Nope. They are 10 month employees here in Miami-Dade, the nations
4th largest district. They don't get paid for the summer months, they
have to budget for them.
Teachers are paid an *annual* salary. Their job requires
> them to be at school for 40 weeks and they have 12 weeks when they don't
> need to be there.
---The summer months are not paid vacation days....
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Tax Fraud, cancer, and the IRS
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/78b4d9d9aca35c0e?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 1:12 pm
From: MSfortune@mcpmail.com
phil scott wrote:
> On Dec 8, 7:29�am, MSfort...@mcpmail.com wrote:
> > phil scott wrote:
> >
> > > myself, Id rather be shot than see my nation ruined by non productive
> > > scum, currently using tax payer money by the trillions to pay bonus's
> > > to their criminal cohortsrunning the fraudulent bank loan and
> > > derivitives schemes.
> >
> > > Phil scott
> >
> > Sir, do you request a blindfold?
>
>
> It is understandable that men with families seek to stay out of
> trouble, not agravate
> those in power ..... in order to give their famiies a chance at some
> food and shelter...thats been
> the history of men in these regards... all such men and nations, and
> thier families die in utter degradation, all thougout history.... some
> dressed better than others, a little fatter.
>
> thats the only difference.
>
>
>
>
> a man can live, and die, limitlessly above that level if he has the
> mind... some of us planned it that way...
>
>
>
> thats been absolutely wonderful.. not cowering or any of that...such
> frees the mind, sinues and spirit to much greater insight.
> some of us live for that..
>
> we dont value the comfort of cowering in fear, we are not in the least
> afraid to die, or to live for that matter...
> in fact we look forward to each of those second by second... as an
> opportunity.. yet another frontier, and as a gift left behind.
>
Death is greatly over-rated as an opportunity. I'm prepared to wait.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Miss Manners on credit cards and protective clerks/managers
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/d050e2dac2223a44?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 2:37 pm
From: "h"
"Steve Daniels" <sdaniels@gorge.net> wrote in message
news:flpqj49l1p8hoknpi8gpq45smi13l2uehi@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 08:25:35 -0500, against all advice, something
> compelled "h" <tmclone@searchmachine.com>, to say:
>
>>
>> "Evelyn Leeper" <eleeper@optonline.net> wrote in message
>> news:493c7e6a$0$4879$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>> >h wrote:
>> >> "Steve Daniels" <sdaniels@gorge.net> wrote in message
>> >> news:3ffoj4ts8m623kqv55ll784r0mg5fpsb3f@4ax.com...
>> >>> On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 15:15:00 -0800, against all advice, something
>> >>> compelled Coffee's For Closers <USENET2008@THE-DOMAIN-IN.SIG>, to
>> >>> say:
>> >>>
>> >>>> The logic is to make a credit card transaction as easy as
>> >>>> possible. So that you won't be discouraged by the small
>> extra
>> >>>> hassle of ID. The Visa and MasterCard associations want card
>> >>>> usage to be as easy as cash, or even easier.
>> >>>
>> >>> You know on the back, on that little strip where you're supposed
>> >>> to put your signature? Mine says, "Ask for picture ID."
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >> And you know what? That's not legal. Not signing the card is a
>> violation
>> >> of the card agreement, and merchants are not supposed to accept
>> unsigned
>> >> cards. If they do the charge can be easily contested. The post
>> office,
>> >> for example, will not take your credit card if it is not signed.
>> Neither
>> >> will many businesses, mine included. Also, at least here in NY, it
>> is a
>> >> violation of the merchant agreement to ask a customer for ID if
>> they are
>> >> using a credit card. So...if you don't sign your card I can't
>> accept it,
>> >> and I'm not allowed to ask for the picture ID you'd rather give.
>> How
>> >> often are you able to use the card for anything expect swipe
>> purchases?
>> >
>> > Mine says that, and I've never had a problem--including at the post
>> > office. They ask for picture ID, I show it, and that's that.
>> >
>> Don't know where you live, but that doesn't fly in NY.
>
> It did in New York City in October of '01. I don't think you can
> get any more New York than that.
>
Gee...7 years ago. Not sure the card companies were as strict with merchants
back then. Still not impressed. Just because some merchants are lax in their
business practices doesn't mean we all are.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: How Odin Became Santa Claus: Symbolism and Pagan Origins of a Gift-
Giving Saint
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/915677537a9d5af4?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 8 2008 4:15 pm
From: wismel@yahoo.com
On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 02:10:24 -0800 (PST), LOVE Europe HATE the EU
<zzzxtyryyetytryey@googlemail.com> wrote:
>How Odin Became Santa Claus: Symbolism and Pagan Origins of a Gift-
>Giving Saint
>by Anja Heij
>
>http://www.odins-gift.com/poth/1imoth/wildhunt2.gif
>http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/9748/santasleigh800ip3.jpg
>
>The story begins in the northern regions of Europe where the supreme
>god Odin, also known as Wodan among the German tribes, reigned. (He
>still lives among us in Wednesday, which is Wodan's day). Odin/Wodan
>was the god of wisdom, magick and occult knowledge, runes, poetry and
>war. His name means "the inspired one". Like a shaman he could travel
>in other worlds to gather more insight while his two black ravens
>Huginn (Thought) and Muninn (Memory) kept him informed about the news
>in the world. Odin was depicted as a tall, old man with a white beard
>and wearing a cloak. He rode the skies and the seas on his fast white
>horse Sleipnir with his 8 (the number of transformation) legs, while
>carrying his never missing spear Gungnir (clear and focused intent) in
>his hand. He had one eye, for he had offered the other eye in exchange
>for gathering wisdom at the well of the head Mimir (Norse
>representation of the Source) and with that he became a shapeshifter,
>able of seeing in the outward world with his normal eye and
>understanding the inward worlds with his black, removed, eye. He was
>very beloved among his friends and followers who felt happy and
>energized in his surroundings (an enlightened being?). His enemies
>however he could paralyze or kill with his sight (insight, the truth).
>Odin trained many men and women as warriors for the final battle
>against the forces of destruction in the underworld at Ragnarok (the
>Norse judgement day). His fearless warriors often painted their bodies
>black and fought in the middle of the night.
>
>The story of Odin/Wodan is the battle between good and evil which will
>stop when we finally realize that black and white are two sides of the
>same coin. Odin is a mythical representation of goodness with his
>wisdom, white beard and white horse (in New Age terms we would depict
>him as 'white divine light'). And he is wise enough to understand that
>'black' is not similar to 'dark' in the sense of 'evil and taboo' for
>his helpers are black ravens and black (spiritual) warriors. The evil
>he fights is the underworld dragon of false beliefs, untruth and
>selfishness (in New Age terms we would call this 'ego').
>(So now we have a wise, good man performing magick/miracles with a
>white horse riding the skies, a white beard, a cloak, a spear and
>black advisors/informers/helpers and he is also god of poetry).
>
>Next we go to the Roman empire where between December 17 and 24 the
>pagan Saturnalia were celebrated, big feasts with a lot of
>merrymaking, dancing, gambling, sensuality and the exchange of gifts.
>This festival was meant to celebrate the return of the sun on the
>shortest days of the year and to counteract the depression due to lack
>of sunlight.
>(Here we find December celebrations with gifts.)
>
>Time goes by. Christianity develops itself. In the 4th century in
>Myra, Turkey, a Christian bishop named Nicholas lived with a great
>reputation for goodness, benevolence and performing miracles for the
>poor and unhappy. He miraculously supplied gold to three (number of
>manifestation) girls as marriage dowries so they did not have to
>become prostitutes and he brought three children back to life who had
>been chopped by a butcher. It is not difficult to understand that
>during the poverty of the Middle Ages (also called Dark Ages) this
>bishop became extremely popular as Saint Nicholas in all parts of
>Europe. His feastday, it was said to be his birthday, was December 5
>or 6, nobody knows. There is no historical evidence however for the
>true existence of this saint.
>(So now we see a benevolent, miracle performing bishop with a white
>dress and a red cloak.)
>
>After the Reformation Saint Nicholas became forgotten in all the
>protestant countries of Europe except Holland. There he became
>Sinterklaas; a kind and wise old man with a white beard, white dress,
>red cloak, a crosier and riding the skies and roofs of the houses on
>his white horse, accompanied by his Black Jacks. Sinterklaas will
>visit you on his birthday December 5 or 6 and donate gifts. His Black
>Jacks have miraculously gathered information about your behavior
>during the last year; if it were good you will now be rewarded with
>presents, if it were bad you will be punished by the Black Jacks who
>will beat you with their rods or even worse: put you in a big bag and
>take you with to Spain, said to be the residence of Sinterklaas. The
>last thing seems to be a Christian influence: punishment by a severe
>father if you don't behave morally just. On the other hand: if you do
>behave nice you will be rewarded with sweets and gifts accompanied by
>humoristic poems that give insight in your weaknesses.
>(Here the mix becomes clear between Odin the good magician god and the
>miracles of the benevolent Sinterklaas. They both ride a white horse
>in the skies,wear a white beard, a cloak and a spear/cosier. They both
>have black helpers. They try to support goodness and dispel evil
>through knowledge. And remember the poetry part? And the blend with
>Roman influences shows itself in a December feast with gaiety and
>presents.)
>
>In the 17th century Dutchmen emigrated to Northern America and brought
>their tradition of Sinterklaas with. In the new English speaking world
>the name changed into Santa Claus. In 1930 a designer for the Coca-
>Cola Company was asked to draw attractive advertisements for this
>drink that did not sell well in wintertime. He had to use the company
>colors red and white and create some cosy type. He remembered the
>Dutch Santa Claus with his white dress, red cloak, long white beard,
>kindness and benevolence. The eight-legged horse was replaced for
>eight flying reindeer. A punishing Black Jack was inappropriate in
>this concept, so he disappeared. This new Santa Claus became a big
>hit. He became so popular that right now in Europe he is serious
>competition for Sinterklaas. That's understandable: no more fear for
>punishing Black Jacks, and you no longer have to sweat on suitable
>poetry for your gifts. And the search for human perfection of Odin?
>Well, can't we just have that as a Christmas present from Santa Claus?
>
>http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=535855
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