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Today's topics:
* Divorcing husband demands kidney back from cheating wife (or payment) - 1
messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/a04de9d37a2e6d87?hl=en
* OT - Survivalism Retail Style - 19 messages, 7 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/da641b3711ca2726?hl=en
* don't gas stations have bathrooms any more? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/104c548907eef340?hl=en
* (WWW.IOFFERKICKS.COM)nike shoes:$32,handbag:$35,NFL:$20,jeans:$30,UGG boot:$
50(FREE SHIPPING and PAYPAL) - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/33ebbebbcc6c3edd?hl=en
* If you want to try Linux..... - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/22630c57a126c940?hl=en
* Electric tea kettle - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/49a87501c53db580?hl=en
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Divorcing husband demands kidney back from cheating wife (or payment)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/a04de9d37a2e6d87?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 9 2009 8:54 am
From: tmclone@searchmachine.com
On Jan 9, 7:14 am, ediefa...@yahoo.com (elise d faber) wrote:
> On Thu, 8 Jan 2009 18:00:05 -0800 (PST), lenona...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >I heard about this this morning. Here's most of the AP article:
>
> >http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jvJ5TlgzE010EKMRYOe...
> >PDAD95IVKRG0
>
> >NY man demands estranged wife pay him for kidney
> >By FRANK ELTMAN =96 10 hours ago
>
> >GARDEN CITY, N.Y. (AP) =97 A Long Island surgeon embroiled in a nearly
> >four-year divorce proceeding wants his estranged wife to return the
> >kidney he donated to her, although he says he'll settle for $1.5
> >million in compensation.
>
> <bigsnip>
>
> >http://news.google.com/news?hl=3Den&ned=3Dus&nolr=3D1&q=3Dkidney+bati...
> >nG=3DSearch
> > (more articles)
>
> >I expect this to show up in GlennSacks.com soon, mainly because while
> >it MAY be safe to say that Batista doesn't really expect any judge to
> >take him seriously, at least he's willing to go public and risk having
> >most strangers laugh at him in exchange for a lot of sympathy from
> >divorced dads - and Sacks tends to admire men like that.
>
> >Lenona.
>
> if he is claiming that it is still his, can she find out how much it
> costs to keep a =klidney waiting for donation and charge him storage
> fees?
>
Human organs have a very short "shelf-life" once they're outside the
body, so I don't think storage fees apply. They put the thing into a
cooler and ship it to the recipient, so I suspect the total cost is
the baggie, the ice, and the cooler. Not exactly big bucks.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT - Survivalism Retail Style
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/da641b3711ca2726?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 19 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 9 2009 9:55 am
From: Curly Surmudgeon
On Fri, 09 Jan 2009 13:06:05 +0000, EskWIRED wrote:
> In misc.survivalism Ed Huntress <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>> <EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com> wrote in message
>> news:gk2ntk$ih9$2@reader1.panix.com...
>> > In misc.survivalism Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudgeon@live.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> I wonder if it's possible to simultaneously suffer both deflation
>> >> and inflation?
>> >
>> > Winston says Yes.
>
>> Winston be wrong. You can have inflation and a contracting economy
>> (stagflation), or deflation and a contracting economy (recession), but
>> you can't have aggregate inflation and aggregate deflation at the same
>> time.
>
> Yep. But try to tell him that, and he will change the subject.
Instead of dissing Winston, I'd like to hear more about stagflation.
I'm not participating much in this thread because it's not my area of
expertise and I'm enjoying, deeply, the dialog and seeing things in a
different light than my preconceptions. I suspect many others are
likewise sitting on the sidelines watching the dialog intently. Thanks
for the comments and please do not pull the regular misc.survivalism
tactic of belittling each other. This is educational, let us form our
own opinions among different viewpoints rather than trying to hammer each
other into your personal opinion.
Early in Reagan's term we were worried about stagflation, it seem to be
upon us now. The death spiral it represents seems to have a snowball
effect where it is self-feeding and therefore difficult to escape once
entered.
Are we not entering a period of "stagflation"?
--
Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11 Days More of George Walker Bush Plundering the Economy
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
== 2 of 19 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 9 2009 10:04 am
From: "John R. Carroll"
"F. George McDuffee" <gmcduffee@mcduffee-associates.us> wrote in message
news:09rem457js2bskckv6cv4grv28vg9tor38@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 9 Jan 2009 13:18:09 +0000 (UTC),
> EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com wrote:
> <snip>
>>What is a spondulick? How does one spend them for goods and services
>>without first converting them to dollars?
> <snip>
> While spondulicks are indeed fictional, the concept can help the
> average person to make sense of a very confusing situation.
>
> Spondulicks are dollar denominated securities that circulate just
> like money. What makes this so insidious is that these are both
> called "dollars," albeit very different kinds.
>
> Back when the M&A activity first got going, it was common for
> entire corporations to be purchased with "spondulicks," aka
> "chinese currency," aka stock for stock exchanges.
M&A has been going on for man's entire history George.
Hey, remember the "Highly Confident Letter"?
There wasn't ANYTHING real about that one - Mike even borrowed the pen he
signed the thing with.
HaHaHaHa!
JC
== 3 of 19 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 9 2009 10:13 am
From: EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com
In misc.survivalism F. George McDuffee <gmcduffee@mcduffee-associates.us> wrote:
> Spondulicks are dollar denominated securities that circulate just
> like money.
Ah. So nothing exists that meets the definition.
Try spending bearer bonds "just like money". Nothing "circulates just
like money" except money.
== 4 of 19 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 9 2009 10:16 am
From: EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com
In misc.survivalism Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudgeon@live.com> wrote:
> Early in Reagan's term we were worried about stagflation, it seem to be
> upon us now.
Not nearly. Inflation is not in the double-digits. Indeed, many folks
are worried about deflation instead.
--
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
-- Bertrand Russel
== 5 of 19 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 9 2009 10:36 am
From: "Rod Speed"
Ed Huntress wrote:
> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:6snssrF6p9pdU1@mid.individual.net...
>> Ed Huntress wrote
>>> <EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com> wrote
>>>> Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudgeon@live.com> wrote
>>
>>>>> I wonder if it's possible to simultaneously suffer both deflation
>>>>> and inflation?
>>
>>>> Winston says Yes.
>>
>>> Winston be wrong. You can have inflation and a contracting economy
>>> (stagflation), or deflation and a contracting economy (recession),
>>> but you can't have aggregate inflation and aggregate deflation at
>>> the same time.
>>
>> He didnt say aggregate.
>
> Then he shouldn't say "deflation." Prices rise and prices fall, and
> they can rise in one category while falling in another. And you can
> make a semantic case for using the terms inflation and deflation to
> describe them.
> But that doesn't help one understand the economics of generalized
> inflation and deflation, which have a much broader implication for
> growth, employment opportunities, the functioning of banks and other
> financial institutions, and so on.
He didnt say he was talking about that.
> It's best for clarity and understanding to use the terms in the way
> they're most commonly used in describing national economies. When you
> pass a threshhold of deflationary activity, the behaviors of
> individual segments of an economy start feeding upon each other.
> That's when you can have trouble.
== 6 of 19 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 9 2009 10:38 am
From: "Rod Speed"
EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>> I wonder if it's possible to simultaneously suffer both deflation and inflation?
>> Corse it is, some things deflate in a recession, some inflate.
>> The price of gasoline has obviously deflated. The cost of some
>> taxes, particularly property taxes, have inflated for some.
> Prices go up and down.
And plenty call prices going up inflation, and prices going down deflation.
> To borrow the terms inflation and deflation as a manner of speaking about individual price categories
They arent borrowed at all, thats part of what inflation is.
> is not illuminating.
Wrong.
== 7 of 19 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 9 2009 10:45 am
From: Curly Surmudgeon
On Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:16:26 +0000, EskWIRED wrote:
> In misc.survivalism Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudgeon@live.com> wrote:
>
>> Early in Reagan's term we were worried about stagflation, it seem to be
>> upon us now.
>
> Not nearly. Inflation is not in the double-digits. Indeed, many folks
> are worried about deflation instead.
Only because energy costs have dropped by >50%. Real costs are rising
sharply, go grocery shopping or look at your health care premiums. Big
ticket items, such as cars and homes have disintegrated. That is
moderating the index otherwise the rates would be more indicative of cost
of living.
There is a latency, as shown historically, between opening the spigot of
Fed printing press, and inflation of 12-18 months. In other words
inflation begins a year or so after the Federal Government begins
printing money out of nothingness. Those presses went into overdrive
about 6 months ago, do the math.
It's hard to determine just how much green is being printed since Bush
eliminated M3 statistics a couple of years ago, it can only be inferred
and is very inexact.
--
Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11 Days More of George Walker Bush Plundering the Economy
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
== 8 of 19 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 9 2009 10:49 am
From: F. George McDuffee
On Fri, 9 Jan 2009 10:04:45 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
<jcarroll@ubu,machiningsolution.com> wrote:
>
>"F. George McDuffee" <gmcduffee@mcduffee-associates.us> wrote in message
>news:09rem457js2bskckv6cv4grv28vg9tor38@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 9 Jan 2009 13:18:09 +0000 (UTC),
>> EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com wrote:
>> <snip>
>>>What is a spondulick? How does one spend them for goods and services
>>>without first converting them to dollars?
>> <snip>
>> While spondulicks are indeed fictional, the concept can help the
>> average person to make sense of a very confusing situation.
>>
>> Spondulicks are dollar denominated securities that circulate just
>> like money. What makes this so insidious is that these are both
>> called "dollars," albeit very different kinds.
>>
>> Back when the M&A activity first got going, it was common for
>> entire corporations to be purchased with "spondulicks," aka
>> "chinese currency," aka stock for stock exchanges.
>
>M&A has been going on for man's entire history George.
>Hey, remember the "Highly Confident Letter"?
>There wasn't ANYTHING real about that one - Mike even borrowed the pen he
>signed the thing with.
>
>HaHaHaHa!
>
>JC
>
==============
Actually I was thinking even further back (into the 60s) when
"Engulf and Devour" [Gulf+Western] was touting "synergy" but
practicing "buy, ruin, sell" after milking every dime possible as
quickly as possible out of their newly acquired "cash cows" paid
for with G+W stock.
For people to young to know about G+W see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf%2BWestern
http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/GULF-amp;-WESTERN-INC-Company-History.html
Another major player from this time frame was LTV
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ling-Temco-Vought
Thus for our younger readers, it is clear that when our current
business executives say that the current economic downturn was
totally unexpected, they are simply "blowing smoke," as this
cycle has been seen many times before.
For info on what we mean by the "highly confident letter"
---------
<snip>
Drexel, however, was more aggressive in its business practices
than most. When it entered the mergers and acquisitions field in
the early 1980s, it didn't shy away from backing hostile
takeovers—long a taboo among the established firms. Its specialty
was the "highly confident letter," in which it promised it could
get the necessary financing for a hostile takeover. Although it
had no legal status, Drexel's reputation for making markets for
any bonds it underwrote was such that a "highly confident letter"
was as good as cash to many of the corporate raiders of the
1980s.[2] Among the deals it financed during this time were Boone
Pickens' failed runs at Gulf Oil and Unocal, Carl Icahn's bid for
Phillips 66, Ted Turner's buyout of MGM/UA[2] and Kohlberg Kravis
Roberts successful bid for RJR Nabisco.[7]
<snip>
-----------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drexel_Burnham_Lambert
While aggressive/abusive M&A activity is indeed as old as
humankind, e.g. Standard Oil, the huge upsurge in volume and
universal use of spondulicks to buy real assets, including "cash
in the bank," land, and buildings, seems to be quantitatively a
new development.
Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
== 9 of 19 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 9 2009 11:03 am
From: "Ed Huntress"
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6spjq1F7jl3lU1@mid.individual.net...
> Ed Huntress wrote:
>> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:6snssrF6p9pdU1@mid.individual.net...
>>> Ed Huntress wrote
>>>> <EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com> wrote
>>>>> Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudgeon@live.com> wrote
>>>
>>>>>> I wonder if it's possible to simultaneously suffer both deflation
>>>>>> and inflation?
>>>
>>>>> Winston says Yes.
>>>
>>>> Winston be wrong. You can have inflation and a contracting economy
>>>> (stagflation), or deflation and a contracting economy (recession),
>>>> but you can't have aggregate inflation and aggregate deflation at
>>>> the same time.
>>>
>>> He didnt say aggregate.
>>
>> Then he shouldn't say "deflation." Prices rise and prices fall, and
>> they can rise in one category while falling in another. And you can
>> make a semantic case for using the terms inflation and deflation to
>> describe them.
>> But that doesn't help one understand the economics of generalized
>> inflation and deflation, which have a much broader implication for
>> growth, employment opportunities, the functioning of banks and other
>> financial institutions, and so on.
>
> He didnt say he was talking about that.
I think that was Roy. I just picked up on what ESKwired said.
--
Ed Huntress
== 10 of 19 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 9 2009 11:18 am
From: "Ed Huntress"
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6spjtuF7kbapU1@mid.individual.net...
> EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>
>>>> I wonder if it's possible to simultaneously suffer both deflation and
>>>> inflation?
>
>>> Corse it is, some things deflate in a recession, some inflate.
>
>>> The price of gasoline has obviously deflated. The cost of some
>>> taxes, particularly property taxes, have inflated for some.
>
>> Prices go up and down.
>
> And plenty call prices going up inflation, and prices going down
> deflation.
>
>> To borrow the terms inflation and deflation as a manner of speaking about
>> individual price categories
>
> They arent borrowed at all, thats part of what inflation is.
>
>> is not illuminating.
>
> Wrong.
The way the terms are used when talking about economics effects, they're
generally used to refer to general, or aggregate increases or decreases in
price levels. For example, from _The Economist's_ "Economics A-Z":
"DEFLATION: Deflation is a persistent fall in the general price level of
goods and SERVICES. It is not to be confused with a decline in prices in one
economic sector or with a fall in the INFLATION rate (which is known as
DISINFLATION)."
"INFLATION: Rising PRICES, across the board. Inflation means less bang for
your buck, as it erodes the purchasing power of a unit of currency.
Inflation usually refers to CONSUMER PRICES, but it can also be applied to
other prices (wholesale goods, WAGES, ASSETS, and so on). It is usually
expressed as an annual percentage rate of change on an INDEX NUMBER."
The common dictionary definitions are fine as far as they go, but they don't
help to understand macroeconomic effects, such as the effects of inflation
or deflation on national unemployment rates, or bank interest, and so on.
--
Ed Huntress
== 11 of 19 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 9 2009 12:25 pm
From: Too_Many_Tools
On Jan 9, 11:55 am, Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudg...@live.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 09 Jan 2009 13:06:05 +0000, EskWIRED wrote:
> > In misc.survivalism Ed Huntress <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> >> <EskWI...@spamblock.panix.com> wrote in message
> >>news:gk2ntk$ih9$2@reader1.panix.com...
> >> > In misc.survivalism Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudg...@live.com>
> >> > wrote:
>
> >> >> I wonder if it's possible to simultaneously suffer both deflation
> >> >> and inflation?
>
> >> > Winston says Yes.
>
> >> Winston be wrong. You can have inflation and a contracting economy
> >> (stagflation), or deflation and a contracting economy (recession), but
> >> you can't have aggregate inflation and aggregate deflation at the same
> >> time.
>
> > Yep. But try to tell him that, and he will change the subject.
>
> Instead of dissing Winston, I'd like to hear more about stagflation.
>
> I'm not participating much in this thread because it's not my area of
> expertise and I'm enjoying, deeply, the dialog and seeing things in a
> different light than my preconceptions. I suspect many others are
> likewise sitting on the sidelines watching the dialog intently. Thanks
> for the comments and please do not pull the regular misc.survivalism
> tactic of belittling each other. This is educational, let us form our
> own opinions among different viewpoints rather than trying to hammer each
> other into your personal opinion.
>
> Early in Reagan's term we were worried about stagflation, it seem to be
> upon us now. The death spiral it represents seems to have a snowball
> effect where it is self-feeding and therefore difficult to escape once
> entered.
>
> Are we not entering a period of "stagflation"?
>
> --
> Regards, Curly
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 11 Days More of George Walker Bush Plundering the Economy
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I think we are already there.
Perhaps someone would care to tell us what is difference between now
and the fiscal events that led to stagflation?
TMT
== 12 of 19 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 9 2009 12:26 pm
From: "Ed Huntress"
"John R. Carroll" <jcarroll@ubu,machiningsolution.com> wrote in message
news:uXI9l.10081$W06.4100@flpi148.ffdc.sbc.com...
>
> <EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com> wrote in message
> news:gk7iqh$6qc$1@reader1.panix.com...
>> In misc.survivalism F. George McDuffee <gmcduffee@mcduffee-associates.us>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> But much depends on the "money of account." If you have two
>>> currencies circulating at the same time in an economy, it would
>>> indeed be possible to have a deflation with one and an inflation
>>> with the other, even if these have the same nominal
>>> name/denomination such as "dollars."
>>
>>> This appears to be the case in current situation.
>>
>>> In terms of actual FRB greenback dollars, there does appear to be
>>> at least a slight deflation (which may well get worse) again
>>> proving that in a downturn "cash is king," but a very
>>> considerable inflation for the virtual dollars or "spondulicks,"
>>> in that many more "spondulicks" are now required to purchase the
>>> same quantities of goods/services, ==>when they can be exchanged
>>> at all.<==
>>
>> What is a spondulick? How does one spend them for goods and services
>> without first converting them to dollars?
>>
>>> This is by no means unusual, and appears to what happened in the
>>> 1929 depression, except the majority of spondulicks hyper
>>> inflated to the point of worthlessness, which was compounded by
>>> the error of attempting to balance the budget by the Hoover
>>> administration, further reducing the amount of money in
>>> circulation, both real and spondulicks. Of course this resulted
>>> in even more economic contraction and deflation, very similar to
>>> bleeding a patient that has a hemorrhage.
>>
>> Is a spondulick every form of money other than currency? If so, then
>> what you say is just plain wrong. I can spend my virtual dollars via my
>> debit card at par. I can create virtual dollars via my credit card at
>> par.
>>
>>
>>> Having multiple denominations of currency in circulation, as is
>>> currently the case in the international economy and many
>>> countries,
>>
>> OH. OK. So you are NOT talking about the USA?
>>
>> does not appear to be a serious problem, as long as
>>> these are not allowed to have the same name and not commingled on
>>> the balance sheets as the same unit, as has repeatedly occurred
>>> with the US dollar and US spondulick.
>>
>> Nope. Never has happened. The dollar value of assets, whether
>> buildings,
>> inventory or whatever is noted on balance sheets.
>
> The value of risk arbitrage is principally set by ratings agencies.
> In fact, risk isn't really tied to currency at all, it's modelled as an
> outcome and assigned a probability.
>
>>
>> What are some examples of spondulicks on the balance sheets of American
>> companies?
>
> Collateralized Debt Obligations.
I think there's a real danger here of confusing and making a mess of
understanding.
Those CDOs are denominated in *dollars*. Their value, whether in terms of
purchase price, market price, or pie-in-the-sky, are written in those books
as *dollars* of value (or non-value or phony value; that's not the point).
As for "buying" companies with spondulicks, or whatever the hell their name
is, those are *barter* deals -- assets for assets. They don't inflate or
deflate with general movements in the economy. They explode or crash
according to the phase of the moon. <g>
I get the point George is trying to make but I sharply disagree with it.
Those assets inflate or deflate in terms of dollars; their inflation or
deflation in terms of *each other* just tells us that their (perceived)
dollar values are increasing or decreasing, relative to each other. They
aren't currency; again, they're assets that a narrow group of specialists
trade with each other, like a farmer might trade corn for a tractor repair.
If we're going to make any sense of inflation and deflation, you need a
reference point on which to stand, and that reference point, as is made
clear in the _Economist's_ definition I posted earlier, is currency. We have
only one currency. The value of everything else in our economy is measured
in currency units. If people bet on the value of a spondulick when trading
it for their stock, the underlying value they're speculating about is the
dollar value they can get by selling it.
What George is suggesting is that they have an economic life of their own,
and that they can be inflating while the currency is deflating. If you want
to stretch the point (which he is doing, anyway), you can say that about any
commodity. Gold and pork bellies have lives of their own. But all that means
is that their value, relative to something else, is going up or down. And
the only measure that has meaning in the macro sense is dollars -- our
currency.
Laid -off workers aren't paid in spondulicks, and we don't ask the banks
what their spondulick interest rate is. Assets that are traded and bartered
have an influence on the economy but, in themselves, they don't send the
economic signals that produce inflation or deflation. Their *dollar value*,
rising or falling, sends the signals.
So it's an interesting side argument, but it doesn't help clarify the forces
that are at work, any more than they would if we talked about the "housing
currency," or the "car inventory currency," or whatever. Those are assets
whose rises and falls may have broad economic implications, but the only way
they relate to inflation and deflation is through their market value in
dollars.
There. I'm done with it. If George keeps spondulicks in his wallet, I'll
take all of this back. d8-)
--
Ed Huntress
== 13 of 19 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 9 2009 12:29 pm
From: Too_Many_Tools
On Jan 9, 12:45 pm, Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudg...@live.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:16:26 +0000, EskWIRED wrote:
> > In misc.survivalism Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudg...@live.com> wrote:
>
> >> Early in Reagan's term we were worried about stagflation, it seem to be
> >> upon us now.
>
> > Not nearly. Inflation is not in the double-digits. Indeed, many folks
> > are worried about deflation instead.
>
> Only because energy costs have dropped by >50%. Real costs are rising
> sharply, go grocery shopping or look at your health care premiums. Big
> ticket items, such as cars and homes have disintegrated. That is
> moderating the index otherwise the rates would be more indicative of cost
> of living.
>
> There is a latency, as shown historically, between opening the spigot of
> Fed printing press, and inflation of 12-18 months. In other words
> inflation begins a year or so after the Federal Government begins
> printing money out of nothingness. Those presses went into overdrive
> about 6 months ago, do the math.
>
> It's hard to determine just how much green is being printed since Bush
> eliminated M3 statistics a couple of years ago, it can only be inferred
> and is very inexact.
>
> --
> Regards, Curly
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 11 Days More of George Walker Bush Plundering the Economy
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with Curly on this one.
And yes...those presses are smoking.
It will be the cause for the cancer that will afflict the next
generations who will need to pay for the paper being printed.
TMT
== 14 of 19 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 9 2009 12:54 pm
From: "Ed Huntress"
"Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:424d0d45-87a6-46df-8d83-fc9f6fac0cbb@o4g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 9, 11:55 am, Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudg...@live.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 09 Jan 2009 13:06:05 +0000, EskWIRED wrote:
> > In misc.survivalism Ed Huntress <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> >> <EskWI...@spamblock.panix.com> wrote in message
> >>news:gk2ntk$ih9$2@reader1.panix.com...
> >> > In misc.survivalism Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudg...@live.com>
> >> > wrote:
>
> >> >> I wonder if it's possible to simultaneously suffer both deflation
> >> >> and inflation?
>
> >> > Winston says Yes.
>
> >> Winston be wrong. You can have inflation and a contracting economy
> >> (stagflation), or deflation and a contracting economy (recession), but
> >> you can't have aggregate inflation and aggregate deflation at the same
> >> time.
>
> > Yep. But try to tell him that, and he will change the subject.
>
> Instead of dissing Winston, I'd like to hear more about stagflation.
>
> I'm not participating much in this thread because it's not my area of
> expertise and I'm enjoying, deeply, the dialog and seeing things in a
> different light than my preconceptions. I suspect many others are
> likewise sitting on the sidelines watching the dialog intently. Thanks
> for the comments and please do not pull the regular misc.survivalism
> tactic of belittling each other. This is educational, let us form our
> own opinions among different viewpoints rather than trying to hammer each
> other into your personal opinion.
>
> Early in Reagan's term we were worried about stagflation, it seem to be
> upon us now. The death spiral it represents seems to have a snowball
> effect where it is self-feeding and therefore difficult to escape once
> entered.
>
> Are we not entering a period of "stagflation"?
>
> --
> Regards, Curly
Sorry, Curly, but I have you blocked and only saw this on the quote. d8-)
No, this is not stagflation. The economy is winding down and unemployment is
rising, but the trend in general price levels has turned down and the fear
now is deflation. When those three things go together, you have recession,
not stagflation.
Stagflation implies an upward spiral in inflation. Regardless of what source
you accept for current price levels, there is no increase; the CPI has been
falling sharply since July.
That doesn't mean that it can't happen in the future, but it looks unlikely
for quite a while to come. We're in a deepening recession, and most people
who watch closely expect price levels to fall more before they level off.
--
Ed Huntress
== 15 of 19 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 9 2009 1:04 pm
From: Too_Many_Tools
On Jan 9, 2:54 pm, "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:424d0d45-87a6-46df-8d83-fc9f6fac0cbb@o4g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 9, 11:55 am, Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudg...@live.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Fri, 09 Jan 2009 13:06:05 +0000, EskWIRED wrote:
> > > In misc.survivalism Ed Huntress <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> > >> <EskWI...@spamblock.panix.com> wrote in message
> > >>news:gk2ntk$ih9$2@reader1.panix.com...
> > >> > In misc.survivalism Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudg...@live.com>
> > >> > wrote:
>
> > >> >> I wonder if it's possible to simultaneously suffer both deflation
> > >> >> and inflation?
>
> > >> > Winston says Yes.
>
> > >> Winston be wrong. You can have inflation and a contracting economy
> > >> (stagflation), or deflation and a contracting economy (recession), but
> > >> you can't have aggregate inflation and aggregate deflation at the same
> > >> time.
>
> > > Yep. But try to tell him that, and he will change the subject.
>
> > Instead of dissing Winston, I'd like to hear more about stagflation.
>
> > I'm not participating much in this thread because it's not my area of
> > expertise and I'm enjoying, deeply, the dialog and seeing things in a
> > different light than my preconceptions. I suspect many others are
> > likewise sitting on the sidelines watching the dialog intently. Thanks
> > for the comments and please do not pull the regular misc.survivalism
> > tactic of belittling each other. This is educational, let us form our
> > own opinions among different viewpoints rather than trying to hammer each
> > other into your personal opinion.
>
> > Early in Reagan's term we were worried about stagflation, it seem to be
> > upon us now. The death spiral it represents seems to have a snowball
> > effect where it is self-feeding and therefore difficult to escape once
> > entered.
>
> > Are we not entering a period of "stagflation"?
>
> > --
> > Regards, Curly
>
> Sorry, Curly, but I have you blocked and only saw this on the quote. d8-)
>
> No, this is not stagflation. The economy is winding down and unemployment is
> rising, but the trend in general price levels has turned down and the fear
> now is deflation. When those three things go together, you have recession,
> not stagflation.
>
> Stagflation implies an upward spiral in inflation. Regardless of what source
> you accept for current price levels, there is no increase; the CPI has been
> falling sharply since July.
>
> That doesn't mean that it can't happen in the future, but it looks unlikely
> for quite a while to come. We're in a deepening recession, and most people
> who watch closely expect price levels to fall more before they level off.
>
> --
> Ed Huntress- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
How about once those hundreds of billions of dollars that are being
printed enter the economy?
TMT
== 16 of 19 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 9 2009 1:32 pm
From: "Ed Huntress"
"Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9042e9de-3b9b-40d1-b528-652839d16bd8@40g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 9, 2:54 pm, "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:424d0d45-87a6-46df-8d83-fc9f6fac0cbb@o4g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 9, 11:55 am, Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudg...@live.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Fri, 09 Jan 2009 13:06:05 +0000, EskWIRED wrote:
> > > In misc.survivalism Ed Huntress <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> > >> <EskWI...@spamblock.panix.com> wrote in message
> > >>news:gk2ntk$ih9$2@reader1.panix.com...
> > >> > In misc.survivalism Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudg...@live.com>
> > >> > wrote:
>
> > >> >> I wonder if it's possible to simultaneously suffer both deflation
> > >> >> and inflation?
>
> > >> > Winston says Yes.
>
> > >> Winston be wrong. You can have inflation and a contracting economy
> > >> (stagflation), or deflation and a contracting economy (recession),
> > >> but
> > >> you can't have aggregate inflation and aggregate deflation at the
> > >> same
> > >> time.
>
> > > Yep. But try to tell him that, and he will change the subject.
>
> > Instead of dissing Winston, I'd like to hear more about stagflation.
>
> > I'm not participating much in this thread because it's not my area of
> > expertise and I'm enjoying, deeply, the dialog and seeing things in a
> > different light than my preconceptions. I suspect many others are
> > likewise sitting on the sidelines watching the dialog intently. Thanks
> > for the comments and please do not pull the regular misc.survivalism
> > tactic of belittling each other. This is educational, let us form our
> > own opinions among different viewpoints rather than trying to hammer
> > each
> > other into your personal opinion.
>
> > Early in Reagan's term we were worried about stagflation, it seem to be
> > upon us now. The death spiral it represents seems to have a snowball
> > effect where it is self-feeding and therefore difficult to escape once
> > entered.
>
> > Are we not entering a period of "stagflation"?
>
> > --
> > Regards, Curly
>
> Sorry, Curly, but I have you blocked and only saw this on the quote. d8-)
>
> No, this is not stagflation. The economy is winding down and unemployment
> is
> rising, but the trend in general price levels has turned down and the fear
> now is deflation. When those three things go together, you have recession,
> not stagflation.
>
> Stagflation implies an upward spiral in inflation. Regardless of what
> source
> you accept for current price levels, there is no increase; the CPI has
> been
> falling sharply since July.
>
> That doesn't mean that it can't happen in the future, but it looks
> unlikely
> for quite a while to come. We're in a deepening recession, and most people
> who watch closely expect price levels to fall more before they level off.
>
> --
> Ed Huntress- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
>How about once those hundreds of billions of dollars that are being
>printed enter the economy?
We'll see. The dollar has been flat or rising against most other currencies,
so it's unlikely that inflation would take right off with even a large
increase in money supply. At some point, yes, it will cause inflation -- but
not before velocity increases (in other words, before people start buying
stuff).
What will matter is the point from which inflation occurs. Right now it
appears we've just crossed the zero point into deflation. If it's six months
before the trend turns up, a little inflation will be a very welcome thing.
--
Ed Huntress
== 17 of 19 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 9 2009 1:55 pm
From: Curly Surmudgeon
On Fri, 09 Jan 2009 16:32:28 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote:
> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:9042e9de-3b9b-40d1-b528-652839d16bd8@40g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 9, 2:54 pm, "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
>> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:424d0d45-87a6-46df-8d83-
fc9f6fac0cbb@o4g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jan 9, 11:55 am, Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudg...@live.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Fri, 09 Jan 2009 13:06:05 +0000, EskWIRED wrote:
>> > > In misc.survivalism Ed Huntress <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>
>> > >> <EskWI...@spamblock.panix.com> wrote in message
>> > >>news:gk2ntk$ih9$2@reader1.panix.com...
>> > >> > In misc.survivalism Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudg...@live.com>
>> > >> > wrote:
>>
>> > >> >> I wonder if it's possible to simultaneously suffer both
>> > >> >> deflation and inflation?
>>
>> > >> > Winston says Yes.
>>
>> > >> Winston be wrong. You can have inflation and a contracting economy
>> > >> (stagflation), or deflation and a contracting economy (recession),
>> > >> but
>> > >> you can't have aggregate inflation and aggregate deflation at the
>> > >> same
>> > >> time.
>>
>> > > Yep. But try to tell him that, and he will change the subject.
>>
>> > Instead of dissing Winston, I'd like to hear more about stagflation.
>>
>> > I'm not participating much in this thread because it's not my area of
>> > expertise and I'm enjoying, deeply, the dialog and seeing things in a
>> > different light than my preconceptions. I suspect many others are
>> > likewise sitting on the sidelines watching the dialog intently.
>> > Thanks for the comments and please do not pull the regular
>> > misc.survivalism tactic of belittling each other. This is
>> > educational, let us form our own opinions among different viewpoints
>> > rather than trying to hammer each
>> > other into your personal opinion.
>>
>> > Early in Reagan's term we were worried about stagflation, it seem to
>> > be upon us now. The death spiral it represents seems to have a
>> > snowball effect where it is self-feeding and therefore difficult to
>> > escape once entered.
>>
>> > Are we not entering a period of "stagflation"?
>>
>> > --
>> > Regards, Curly
>>
>> Sorry, Curly, but I have you blocked and only saw this on the quote.
>> d8-)
>>
>> No, this is not stagflation. The economy is winding down and
>> unemployment is
>> rising, but the trend in general price levels has turned down and the
>> fear now is deflation. When those three things go together, you have
>> recession, not stagflation.
>>
>> Stagflation implies an upward spiral in inflation. Regardless of what
>> source
>> you accept for current price levels, there is no increase; the CPI has
>> been
>> falling sharply since July.
>>
>> That doesn't mean that it can't happen in the future, but it looks
>> unlikely
>> for quite a while to come. We're in a deepening recession, and most
>> people who watch closely expect price levels to fall more before they
>> level off.
>>
>> --
>> Ed Huntress- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>>How about once those hundreds of billions of dollars that are being
>>printed enter the economy?
>
> We'll see. The dollar has been flat or rising against most other
> currencies, so it's unlikely that inflation would take right off with
> even a large increase in money supply.
There is no direct relationship between exchange rates and inflation,
only a slight correlation.
> At some point, yes, it will cause
> inflation -- but not before velocity increases (in other words, before
> people start buying stuff).
>
> What will matter is the point from which inflation occurs. Right now it
> appears we've just crossed the zero point into deflation. If it's six
> months before the trend turns up, a little inflation will be a very
> welcome thing.
Again, this is due more to the disintegrating home and declining vehicle
costs than to real deflation. Major ticket items are always the first
casualty, even while cost of living is climbing.
--
Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11 Days More of George Walker Bush Plundering the Economy
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
== 18 of 19 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 9 2009 2:36 pm
From: Too_Many_Tools
On Jan 9, 3:32 pm, "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:9042e9de-3b9b-40d1-b528-652839d16bd8@40g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 9, 2:54 pm, "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:424d0d45-87a6-46df-8d83-fc9f6fac0cbb@o4g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jan 9, 11:55 am, Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudg...@live.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Fri, 09 Jan 2009 13:06:05 +0000, EskWIRED wrote:
> > > > In misc.survivalism Ed Huntress <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> > > >> <EskWI...@spamblock.panix.com> wrote in message
> > > >>news:gk2ntk$ih9$2@reader1.panix.com...
> > > >> > In misc.survivalism Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudg...@live.com>
> > > >> > wrote:
>
> > > >> >> I wonder if it's possible to simultaneously suffer both deflation
> > > >> >> and inflation?
>
> > > >> > Winston says Yes.
>
> > > >> Winston be wrong. You can have inflation and a contracting economy
> > > >> (stagflation), or deflation and a contracting economy (recession),
> > > >> but
> > > >> you can't have aggregate inflation and aggregate deflation at the
> > > >> same
> > > >> time.
>
> > > > Yep. But try to tell him that, and he will change the subject.
>
> > > Instead of dissing Winston, I'd like to hear more about stagflation.
>
> > > I'm not participating much in this thread because it's not my area of
> > > expertise and I'm enjoying, deeply, the dialog and seeing things in a
> > > different light than my preconceptions. I suspect many others are
> > > likewise sitting on the sidelines watching the dialog intently. Thanks
> > > for the comments and please do not pull the regular misc.survivalism
> > > tactic of belittling each other. This is educational, let us form our
> > > own opinions among different viewpoints rather than trying to hammer
> > > each
> > > other into your personal opinion.
>
> > > Early in Reagan's term we were worried about stagflation, it seem to be
> > > upon us now. The death spiral it represents seems to have a snowball
> > > effect where it is self-feeding and therefore difficult to escape once
> > > entered.
>
> > > Are we not entering a period of "stagflation"?
>
> > > --
> > > Regards, Curly
>
> > Sorry, Curly, but I have you blocked and only saw this on the quote. d8-)
>
> > No, this is not stagflation. The economy is winding down and unemployment
> > is
> > rising, but the trend in general price levels has turned down and the fear
> > now is deflation. When those three things go together, you have recession,
> > not stagflation.
>
> > Stagflation implies an upward spiral in inflation. Regardless of what
> > source
> > you accept for current price levels, there is no increase; the CPI has
> > been
> > falling sharply since July.
>
> > That doesn't mean that it can't happen in the future, but it looks
> > unlikely
> > for quite a while to come. We're in a deepening recession, and most people
> > who watch closely expect price levels to fall more before they level off.
>
> > --
> > Ed Huntress- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
> >How about once those hundreds of billions of dollars that are being
> >printed enter the economy?
>
> We'll see. The dollar has been flat or rising against most other currencies,
> so it's unlikely that inflation would take right off with even a large
> increase in money supply. At some point, yes, it will cause inflation -- but
> not before velocity increases (in other words, before people start buying
> stuff).
>
> What will matter is the point from which inflation occurs. Right now it
> appears we've just crossed the zero point into deflation. If it's six months
> before the trend turns up, a little inflation will be a very welcome thing.
>
> --
> Ed Huntress- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Could it be that the banks holding on to their 350 billion bailout
(except for bonuses of course) be a good thing? If the masses can't
access credit, they can't spend and without money in the system there
is no inflation.
TMT
== 19 of 19 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 9 2009 3:30 pm
From: "Ed Huntress"
"Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:22b0401b-544f-468d-8f3d-f07cf72f31ec@x16g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 9, 3:32 pm, "Ed Huntress" <huntre...@optonline.net> wrote:
> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
<snip>
> >How about once those hundreds of billions of dollars that are being
> >printed enter the economy?
>
> We'll see. The dollar has been flat or rising against most other
> currencies,
> so it's unlikely that inflation would take right off with even a large
> increase in money supply. At some point, yes, it will cause inflation --
> but
> not before velocity increases (in other words, before people start buying
> stuff).
>
> What will matter is the point from which inflation occurs. Right now it
> appears we've just crossed the zero point into deflation. If it's six
> months
> before the trend turns up, a little inflation will be a very welcome
> thing.
>
> --
> Ed Huntress- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
>Could it be that the banks holding on to their 350 billion bailout
>(except for bonuses of course) be a good thing? If the masses can't
>access credit, they can't spend and without money in the system there
>is no inflation.
>TMT
To answer the question you're really asking, no, it's not a good thing. With
no credit, there's little consumption; with little consumption, there's
declining or flat production; with declining or flat production, there's no
increase in employment; and so on, around the circle. No credit, no economy.
We wind up raising chickens in our SUVs. <g>
To answer a question you didn't ask, having the banks sit on that money or
use it to buy other banks, while it causes wailing and gnashing of teeth in
Congress and in the press, may be good in the longer term, because the banks
are ripe for some consolidation and will wind up stronger, and will be a lot
less vulnerable to downturns. They'll raise their reserves and they'll be
choosy about their loans. This is the good side, which compensates to some
degree for the bad side.
My guess, only from reading the experts and not from any real knowledge of
it, is that the people in Treasury think the good side is worth it. The
people in Congress don't think it's worth it. I have no way of knowing who
is right.
Now, forget you heard that, and don't tell anyone you heard it from me. d8-)
--
Ed Huntress
==============================================================================
TOPIC: don't gas stations have bathrooms any more?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/104c548907eef340?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 9 2009 10:48 am
From: Cindy Hamilton
On Jan 9, 9:05 am, Rick <r...@quesocabezafarm.com> wrote:
> I thought there was some law somewhere that retail establishments had
> to provide for bathrooms for the public. I bet that person was
> messing with you.
>
There certainly is no such law in Michigan. Even restaurants that
provide
only carry-out service aren't required to have public bathrooms.
Cindy Hamilton
==============================================================================
TOPIC: (WWW.IOFFERKICKS.COM)nike shoes:$32,handbag:$35,NFL:$20,jeans:$30,UGG
boot:$50(FREE SHIPPING and PAYPAL)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/33ebbebbcc6c3edd?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 9 2009 11:50 am
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: If you want to try Linux.....
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/22630c57a126c940?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 9 2009 1:58 pm
From: Stray Dog
On Fri, 9 Jan 2009, OhioGuy wrote:
> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 08:06:26 -0500
> From: OhioGuy <none@none.net>
> Newsgroups: misc.consumers.frugal-living
> Subject: Re: If you want to try Linux.....
>
> I've tried Ubuntu, and while I think it is a great basic OS, it didn't work
> out for me because the computer I was trying it on did not have any
> connection to the OS.
>
> I needed something that would play various multimedia files (h.264, mpeg4,
> etc.) right out of the box.
>
> Instead of basic Ubuntu, I went with a variant that was developed exactly
> for this purpose: Linux Mint. Right out of the box, it will play pretty much
> any video file you throw at it.
>
It is good of you to share your experiences with everyone else.
Thank you.
As for myself, the "best" Linux out of all I tried was Red Hat 6.2. Of
course, I think a lot of the later versions might have been "tweaked" up
more specifically for the latest hardwares but I've still got a lot of old
hardware here (some 10 years old), and the hardware incompatibilities
start showing up. My old hardware did not have "boot-off-CDROM"
capability, so there was almost no way available to me to install the
later versions, and the new CDROM drivers were not compatible with my old
CDROM drives. Not to mention some of the other problems I ran into, or
things I wanted but could not get in Linux.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Electric tea kettle
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/49a87501c53db580?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 9 2009 3:23 pm
From: artsy6@gmail.com
A recent Consumers Reports article on coffee makers seemed to be
saying that a good cup of coffee depends upon reaching high water
temperature.
I have been thinking of getting an electric tea kettle and would
appreciate any recommendations.
Thank you.
== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 9 2009 4:26 pm
From: haranjoe@lycos.com
On Jan 9, 5:23 pm, art...@gmail.com wrote:
> A recent Consumers Reports article on coffee makers seemed to be
> saying that a good cup of coffee depends upon reaching high water
> temperature.
>
> I have been thinking of getting an electric tea kettle and would
> appreciate any recommendations.
>
> Thank you.
I have one and LOVE it for making tea - gets the water boiling FAST -
need to have at least 2 cups in it though. It is more efficient
electrically than a microwave. i believe the brand is Betty Crocker.
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