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* Buy local produce - 2 messages, 2 authors
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* Bush To Let Illegal Aliens Get $40 Digital TV Coupons - 9 messages, 4
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Buy local produce
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e35af9f5cf8c8f29?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 13 2007 9:05 pm
From: Shawn Hirn
In article <47118979$0$25692$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
Anthony Matonak <anthonym40@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
> AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
> > we can't grow oranges and bananas here. or grapefruit. or pineapple.
> > then again, we don't have giant, hissing cockroaches, either. :)
>
> If you spend enough money, you can grow anything anywhere.
Perhaps, but $10 a pound oranges and bananas won't sell well.
== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 13 2007 10:22 pm
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"
"Shawn Hirn" <srhi@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:srhi-F772F7.00055814102007@newsgroups.comcast.net...
> In article <47118979$0$25692$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
> Anthony Matonak <anthonym40@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
>> > we can't grow oranges and bananas here. or grapefruit. or pineapple.
>> > then again, we don't have giant, hissing cockroaches, either. :)
>>
>> If you spend enough money, you can grow anything anywhere.
>
> Perhaps, but $10 a pound oranges and bananas won't sell well.
and think of the energy required. which of course defeats the purpose.
>
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Bush To Let Illegal Aliens Get $40 Digital TV Coupons
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f941e4a655a77d3f?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 13 2007 9:11 pm
From: "Rod Speed"
Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>> Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote
>>>>>>>>>> Trouble is that there are no 'solutions' that will actually do that.
>>>>>>>>> There is "always" a solution.
>>>>>>>> Nope.
>>>>>>> Then if there is no solution, learn to live with the problem?
>>>>>> Or just deal with the parts of the problem that are feasible to deal with.
>>>>> What parts of the problem is that?
>>>> One obvious area that can be dealth with is the anchor baby part of the problem.
>>>> All that would take is a constitutional amendment and there
>>>> isnt any doubt that that would get overwhelming support.
>>>> Most modern first world countrys have binned that stupidity for a long time now.
>>>>>>>>> There "may not be the will", but there is a solution.
>>>>>>>> Nope.
>>>>>>>>> For instance, the government in Mexcio is one big part of the problem.
>>>>>>>> Nope, no govt of mexico can actually do anything about the real
>>>>>>>> problem, they pump out FAR more kids than the economy can
>>>>>>>> possibly sustain with decent living standards, so there are
>>>>>>>> inevitably hordes who notice that the living standards in the US are much better than in mexico and so they
>>>>>>>> move to US if they can.
>>>>>>>>> They cannot seem to adopt policies that will actually
>>>>>>>>> dramatically improve the lives of their citizens.
>>>>>>>> There are no such policys. Even a very draconian approach like
>>>>>>>> the chinese adopted of forcing most to only have one brat STILL
>>>>>>>> didnt fix the problem that the living standards in the US are MUCH better than in china, and so hordes would
>>>>>>>> prefer to leave china.
>>>>>>>>> One solution (though I am not saying we should do it) is to forcibly change the government in Mexico.
>>>>>>>> Wont do a damned thing about the fundamental problem.
>>>>>>> what is the "fundamental problem"?
>>>>>> I told you, they pump out FAR more kids than their economy
>>>>>> can ever support and thats what produces so many that find
>>>>>> that moving to the US will improve their personal living
>>>>>> standards.
>>>>> you have got to be kidding me.
>>>> Nope.
>>>>> Societies have managed to take care of their people, regardless of their birth rate.
>>>> Have fun listing a single one thats got a birth
>>>> rate like Mexico has thats actually done that.
>>>> And like I said, even when china did fix the birth rate problem, that STILL didnt stop the other fundamental
>>>> problem, that the living standards are STILL so far below what they are in the US that hordes of people STILL want
>>>> to leave that country and migrate to
>>>> another one, and that many of them are prepared to do that illegally.
>>> You are concentrating on the faulures and not the successes.
>> Nope, just rubbing your nose in the FACT that while ever there is such a gross difference in the living standards
>> between the worst of the
>> third world and the US, there will inevitably be hordes that are
>> prepared to risk even the death of their kids to move to the US and
>> that your proposal for a jail that consists of tents in the desert isnt going to make any real difference deterrence
>> wise when they are prepared to take that sort of risk.
> Are you going to argue that it would not be a better tactic to throw
> these people in jail and to increase the prison time they have to
> spend in jail, every other time they are caught in this country
> illegally, that would not have an effect on their "decision" to enter
> this country illegally, and that it would not deter some from trying?
Nope, JUST that it wouldnt have a big effect on the numbers trying
and that it would be very expensive paying for their time in jail.
It makes a lot more sense to spend that money on a decent wall like
the Isrealis have, and fix the anchor baby problem with a constitutional
amendment and fix the problem with the Cubans by removing the stupid
provision that if they make it to the US, they get to stay for as long as they like.
And stop the stupid amnesty system which just rewards flouting of the law.
Ship them back where they came from whenever they are discovered.
> And why don't you think putting them into tent cities would not work, when the facts seem to indicate otherwise.
The facts show nothing of the sort. The facts show that even with
MUCH more gung ho jails than the US would ever be prepared to
have, like the chinese have chosen to have, that that doesnt stop
hordes of North Koreans from attempting to move illegally to china.
> Look at the re-incarciration rate of the city in Arizona, where the prisoners are put into tent cities.
Different matter entirely, those arent coming from third world
countrys where the living standards are MUCH worse than in
the US for illegals. THATS whats driving most of the illegals.
>> Even the sort of gung ho approach to jails that the chinese
>> have STILL doesnt have any real effect on the North Koreans
>> prepared to risk death for a better standard of living.
>>> Do you for a second believe that regardless of the birrthrate in the
>>> United States, that this country could not have absorbed that rate?
>> Corse it could, but it clearly chooses not to let anyone
>> who wants to move to the US to do that anymore.
> Who is "forcing" people not to do that?
Never said anyone was and didnt use that word either.
>>> When I think of third world countries I think of places like
>>> Africa. But regardless, if you look at the problems that all third world countries have, they have sone things in
>>> common.
>> And the most obvious difference they have in common is MUCH lower
>> standards of living, particularly for the dregs of their society in their slums etc. And that is what is driving the
>> hordes of illegals that have decided that their economic prospects are MUCH better in the US.
> Which is the problem.
And it isnt even possible to do anything about that.
Even NAFTA didnt change that.
> We are trying to stop people who for their own
> selfish needs, want to leave the country of their birth.
>> Its what drives North Koreans into china too.
> Yep
>>> They all have incompetent governments, who cannot seem to
>>> adopt polices or don't want to adopt policies, which would actually
>>> make the lives of the people in their countries much better.
>> The VERY fundamental problem is that while ever the birth rate is so
>> much greater than economy can ever provide decent living standards
>> for, there is nothing any govt can actually do about that policy wise.
> I do not agree with you.
Your problem.
> India had a major problem with feeding their people a number of decades ago.
The problem with the mexicans and cubans isnt the lack of food.
> The Rockerfeller Foundation came up with a way for the country to raise hybrid rice, that would grow in India.
That happened independantly of the Rockerfeller Foundation.
> India embraced this new hybrid rice. India who use to be a net importer of rice, is now (or at least was when the new
> hybrid rice was used became self-reliant and no longer needed to import rice).
And hordes of Indians STILL choose to move to any first world
country that will have them, and hordes choose to move illegally too.
>> And even when a particular govt does adopt an extremely gung
>> ho approach to that problem like the chinese did, with what is
>> essentially compulsory abortion when you already have one brat,
>> that STILL doesnt produce living standards anything like what the
>> US has, and so there is STILL an immense number of the dregs
>> of any society that will move to the US if they can do that.
> When you start at the bottom of the barrel, don't expect miracles to happen, and that you will be on the top of the
> barrel overnight.
That change with India happened DECADES ago now.
> The fact is that China seems to be doing a much better job of taking care
> of the needs of their people, and if they can keep that going, will do a much better job of taking care of the needs
> of their people as time passes.
And wont do a damned thing about the hugh numbers of chinese that
choose to move to any first world country that will have them, and
hugh numbers who move to countrys that refuse to allow them too.
>> So the govts while hopeless are essentially irrelevant to
>> the fundamental problem of illegal immigrants in the US.
> Governments are never hopeless.
Plenty of them are. Have a look at Burma and North Korea some time.
> They can change.
They get changed.
> It just requires a willingness to change.
And plenty have no willingness to change.
>>> Africa seems to have another major problem, they don't seem to be able to produce enough food for their population.
>> They could if things were organised properly. And
>> again, the fundamental problem is the birth rate.
> No!!
Yes!!!
> If you have a high birthrate, all that means is you have to do a better job.
Sorry, fresh out of magic wands to wave. Have a look ethiopia some time.
The numbers are completely unsustainable, no matter how good a job is done.
>> Even HIV/AIDS isnt having much real effect on that.
> It is a mater of how many die and what the "replacement" rate is.
Duh.
>>> You can abosorb as many people as you want, "if" you can figure out how to provide your people with what are the
>>> necessities in life.
>> There's no one starving in Mexico, so thats irrelevant to what
>> is being discussed, ILLEGALS who decide that their prospects
>> are much better in the US than in the country they are leaving.
> You do not have to be starving to want to seek a better life.
You're the one that brought up the irrelevant red herring of starvation.
> The East Germans were not starving either.
>> Thats true in spades of the Cubans who are
>> prepared to risk death to move to the US.
>> The real world is about a hell of a lot more than JUST the necessitys of life.
> It is?
Yep, most obviously with East Germany.
> These "necessities" of life mean that if you have it, you live a reasonably good life, and if you do not have it, you
> live a less than reasonable life.
And thats not whats driving most illegals. Those that dont
get the necessitys of life just die, like we saw with ethiopia.
>>>>>>>> And it clearly didnt work with Iraq anyway.
>>>>>>> No one can say it will not work in Iraq.
>>>>>> Corse anyone with a clue can say that.
>>>>> Only someone who knows what will happen in the futrre can do that.
>>>> Wrong. Its perfectly possible to notice that full civil war doesnt just stop by
>>>> itself and that what the US is doing in Iraq isnt going to stop it any time soon.
> The USA had a civil war, a really big one.
Yep, and that didnt stop just because someone told the antagonists to stop killing each other.
> Did we end up better off than when the civil war started?
Thats arguable.
>>>>>>> All we can say is that it is not working yet.
>>>>>> And it wont, you watch. Replacing the govt produced the inevitable result, a full civil war, and those dont just
>>>>>> go away by wishing that would happen.
> You seem to also be engaged in wishful thinking and wishful thinking of the worse kind.
You need to get your seems machinery seen to.
> You seem to want there to be a civil war.
You need to get your seems machinery seen to.
>>>>>> Some have lasted for hundreds of years effectively, like with Ireland.
>>>>> Yep, and there is no civil war in Ireland now, because the english did not give up.
>>>> Nope, because the Irish eventually came to their senses, after CENTURYS.
> But would they have come to their senses if the English has simply given up?
Corse they would. The US did eventually. ALL civil wars come to an end sometime.
>>>> There isnt a shred of evidence that the stupid rag heads
>>>> in Iraq will be giving up on their civil war any time soon.
> We will never know, but one thing we can say we certainty, you cannot succeed if you give up.
Depends entirely on how you define success. The invasion of Iraq
was a complete unmitigated disaster for the Iraqis. They ended up
with a MUCH worse situation than they had before the US invaded.
So did the US too.
== 2 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 13 2007 9:18 pm
From: "Rod Speed"
Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:5ncmc7FhapcpU1@mid.individual.net...
>> Rick <videojockey1a@yahoo.comzzzz> wrote:
>>> "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
>>> news:470d7468$0$9534$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>>>
>>>> <trader4@optonline.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:1192060312.900181.213070@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> On Oct 10, 1:57 pm, "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> "Thanatos" <atro...@mac.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>
>>>>>> news:atropos-F75617.00090210102007@news.giganews.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In article <470c2a86$0$7506$4c368...@roadrunner.com>,
>>>>>>> "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I asked for what someone would suggest we do about the problem.
>>>>>>>> Do you have a workable plan?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not the point. You're bascially saying, "Yeah, there's a problem
>>>>>>> but until someone tells me how it can be solved (at which point
>>>>>>> I will do my
>>>>>>> damndest to torpedo whatever they come up with), nothing should
>>>>>>> be done
>>>>>>> at all."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I had a boss who told me once, you know every Tom, Dick and Harry
>>>>>> can tell
>>>>>> me about what they see as a problem. It does very little good to
>>>>>> hear about
>>>>>> a problem if they do not have a solution to the perceived
>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Your boss was obviously an idiot. Suppose an employee came to
>>>>> the boss and said "Every 10th widget that comes off the assembly
>>>>> line has cracks in it and is going in the scrap pile." According to the boss, that does very little good
>>>>> because the
>>>>> employee doesn't have a solution to the problem.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, because the boss may not have a solution to the problem
>>>> either, so telling him about the problem does not solve the
>>>> problem. On the other hand, if you told the boss "every 10th
>>>> widgtet that comes off the assembly line has cracks in it and is
>>>> going in the scrap pile" and you had a solution to stop that from
>>>> happening, that you have not only pointed out a problem, but you
>>>> have a way to stop that from happening. Problems cannot be
>>>> corrected without a solution. It is not bad to point out
>>>> problems, but it is a whole lot better, if you poitned out a
>>>> problem and had a proposed solution.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you
>>>>>> believe that something is a problem and you have no solution to
>>>>>> solving the
>>>>>> problem, then the problem will never go away....because SOMEONE
>>>>>> has to come
>>>>>> up with a solution.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding the illegal immigration problem, there are obvious
>>>>> solutions. The only problem is, no one has the political will to
>>>>> implement them. Primarily because they are all afraid of being
>>>>> branded as racists, similar to what you see trying to be done in
>>>>> this thread.
>>>>
>>>> Okay, let us talk about illegal immigration. First of all, no
>>>> society has been very successdul at stopping people from doing what
>>>> they want to do. People enter this country illegally because they
>>>> believe they have a shot a living a better life here than where
>>>> they come from. So, if you do not address that dynamic, then
>>>> nothing else you do will work.
>>>>>
>>>>> Solutions:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Have guest worker permits that allow foreigners to work here
>>>>> legally for a limited time. Bush proposed this 5 years ago and
>>>>> it got shot down by everyone.
>>>>
>>>> that is not a bad idea.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then enforce penalties against employers that hire illegal aliens.
>>>>> Increase the penalties where appropriate. Once there are no jobs
>>>>> for illegals, they'll stop coming.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That also is not a bad idea, but it ain't going to solve the
>>>> problem. First because you cannot possibly stop businesses from
>>>> hiring these people. You can make it a whole lot more difficult
>>>> on them, and you may stop more or most of them from hiring these
>>>> illegals, but you will NEVER stop ALL of them from hiring
>>>> illegals. But for the sake of discussion, let us for the moment
>>>> assume that we can stop all businesses from hiring illegals. Will
>>>> that work? No, it won't work. If you were in this country
>>>> illegally, what you would do is work the underground economy, so
>>>> all you have succeeded in doing is driving them to work in the
>>>> underground economy, and then you have just made the job of
>>>> finding them that much harder, if not impossible.
>>>>> Allow and encourage police at all levels to report illegal aliens
>>>>> that they encounter.
>>>>
>>>> Not a bad idea, but it won't happen.
>>>>>
>>>>> Deport those that are found
>>>>
>>>> Lousy idea. You deport them and they just turn right around and
>>>> re-enter this country illegally again. "If" we were really serious
>>>> about providing them with a incentive not to enter this country
>>>> illegally, let them spend some time in prison. And if they come
>>>> back into this country illegally again, put them in prison for a
>>>> longer period of time. That alone would work a whole lot better.
>>>>>
>>>>> Get working on high tech solutions to manage the border. Surely
>>>>> with satellites, drone aircraft, sensor on the ground and the
>>>>> like, we can make it extremely difficult to get across the
>>>>> border. In fact, this would solve much of our problem in Iraq. If you can secure the borders, then no more
>>>>> explosives and
>>>>> terrorists would be coming in to Iraq and what explosives they
>>>>> have would be used up in short order.
>>>>
>>>> Nothing wrong with that idea. Of course there is a whole lot of
>>>> water surrounding the United States, and there is the northern
>>>> border which is open.
>>
>>> But where is the fence?
>>> It works in Israel.
>> And wouldnt work with Mexico.
> why son't it work?
Because its so easy to do an end run around it.
>> There's already much better than a fence with Cuba
>> and there are hordes of Cubans in the country anyway.
> A couple of thoughts on Cuba. First, even though it is much more difficult for them to come, they do keep coming.
And even with a perfect fence between the US and
Mexico, so would the Mexicans and other south americans
that currently move over where the fence would be.
> Second, we do have a wet foot/dry foot policy in this country when it comes to Cubans. It is not exactly a good policy
> if you don't want them to enter this country, instead it encourages them to keep trying.
Corse it does.
> Thirdly, that is what is inconsistent about this whole argument about illegals. The government of the United States
> decides who is a legal alien and who is not, the wet foot/dry foot rule is a good example.
And the stupid amnesty policy in spades. The LAST thing
that should be done is to reward the flouting of the law
with an amnesty if you want to discourage illegals.
== 3 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 13 2007 9:21 pm
From: "Rod Speed"
Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:5ncme0Fhls8jU1@mid.individual.net...
>> Rick <videojockey1a@yahoo.comzzzz> wrote:
>>> "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
>>> news:470bd495$0$11082$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>>> This is getting to be silly. There are some, what, 40 million of
>>>> them in this country as we speak. What percentage of them are
>>>> picking crops? Why complain about a problem, if you have no
>>>> solution to the problem? What is your solution to the problem? I
>>>> am willing to bet whatever "solution" you propose, I can poke holes
>>>> into your "solution" of why it won't work. "RuleOfLaw"
>>>> <miltonez@aol.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:1191906246.966265.44310@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> On Oct 4, 6:06 am, cloud dreamer <Global_Warm...@is.real> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Funny how guys like Bill will whine over illegal immigrants but
>>>>>> is happy to buy cheap strawberries made possible only by their
>>>>>> labour. I doubt he'd be willing to bend over and pick in the hot
>>>>>> sun for their wages.
>>>>>
>>>>> Enonomists have thoroughly exploded the myth of "cheap
>>>>> strawberries" (or is "cheap lettuce" more your hollow cliche of
>>>>> choice?)
>>>>>
>>>>> First of all, the use of illegal alien laborAT MOST reduces
>>>>> produce prices a few cents per pound.
>>>>>
>>>>> Secondly, the citizen taxpayers pay ENORMOUS amounts of money (and
>>>>> sometimes with their very lives) to harbor this "cheap" illegal
>>>>> alien labor. Right nos MY local hospital is CLOSING due to illegal
>>>>> aliens bankrupting it!!!!!!!!!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> Thirdly, it's been convincingly argued that the presence of
>>>>> illegal aliens actually HINDERS growers' introduction of what
>>>>> would be LABOR- SAVING automation which would TRULY LOWER prices.
>>>>> With so many illegals around growers have little reason to
>>>>> further automate.
>>> Well for one none of them have a legal Social Security Card. You
>>> want a job get a legal SSC. If you don't no employment from any
>>> business in the United States and no Welfare either with out a SSC.
>>
>> They'd just get a SSC, just like they get fake passports.
>>
>
> I did not think of that. Get a fake passport and present that as
> proof of citizenship. I wonder if that would work?
Corse it does, thats what happens world wide with illegals.
== 4 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 13 2007 9:24 pm
From: "Rod Speed"
Rick <videojockey1a@yahoo.comzzzz> wrote:
> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:5ncm9aFhpimdU1@mid.individual.net...
>> Rick <videojockey1a@yahoo.comzzzz> wrote:
>>> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:5nabtmFh94b9U1@mid.individual.net...
>>>> Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>> Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Trouble is that there are no 'solutions' that will actually
>>>>>>>>>> do that.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is "always" a solution.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nope.
>>>>
>>>>>>> Then if there is no solution, learn to live with the problem?
>>>>
>>>>>> Or just deal with the parts of the problem that are feasible to
>>>>>> deal with.
>>>>
>>>>> What parts of the problem is that?
>>>>
>>>> One obvious area that can be dealth with is the anchor baby part of
>>>> the problem.
>>>>
>>>> All that would take is a constitutional amendment and there
>>>> isnt any doubt that that would get overwhelming support.
>>>>
>>>> Most modern first world countrys have binned that stupidity for a
>>>> long time now.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There "may not be the will", but there is a solution.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nope.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For instance, the government in Mexcio is one big part of the
>>>>>>>>> problem.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nope, no govt of mexico can actually do anything about the real
>>>>>>>> problem, they pump out FAR more kids than the economy can
>>>>>>>> possibly sustain with decent living standards, so there are
>>>>>>>> inevitably hordes who notice that the living standards in the
>>>>>>>> US are much better than in mexico and so they move to US if
>>>>>>>> they can.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They cannot seem to adopt policies that will actually
>>>>>>>>> dramatically improve the lives of their citizens.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are no such policys. Even a very draconian approach like
>>>>>>>> the chinese adopted of forcing most to only have one brat STILL
>>>>>>>> didnt fix the problem that the living standards in the US are
>>>>>>>> MUCH better than in china, and so hordes would prefer to leave
>>>>>>>> china.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One solution (though I am not saying we should do it) is to
>>>>>>>>> forcibly change the government in Mexico.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Wont do a damned thing about the fundamental problem.
>>>>
>>>>>>> what is the "fundamental problem"?
>>>>
>>>>>> I told you, they pump out FAR more kids than their economy
>>>>>> can ever support and thats what produces so many that find
>>>>>> that moving to the US will improve their personal living
>>>>>> standards.
>>>>
>>>>> you have got to be kidding me.
>>>>
>>>> Nope.
>>>>
>>>>> Societies have managed to take care of their people, regardless of
>>>>> their birth rate.
>>>>
>>>> Have fun listing a single one thats got a birth
>>>> rate like Mexico has thats actually done that.
>>>>
>>>> And like I said, even when china did fix the birth rate problem,
>>>> that STILL didnt stop the other fundamental problem, that the
>>>> living standards are STILL so far below what they are in the US
>>>> that hordes of people STILL want to leave that country and migrate to
>>>> another one, and that many of them are prepared to do that
>>>> illegally.
>>>>> While some countries have not.
>>>>
>>>> Like the entire third world, which just happens
>>>> to be where the illegals are mostly coming from.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> And it clearly didnt work with Iraq anyway.
>>>>
>>>>>>> No one can say it will not work in Iraq.
>>>>
>>>>>> Corse anyone with a clue can say that.
>>>>
>>>>> Only someone who knows what will happen in the futrre can do that.
>>>>
>>>> Wrong. Its perfectly possible to notice that full civil war doesnt
>>>> just stop by
>>>> itself and that what the US is doing in Iraq isnt going to stop it
>>>> any time soon.
>>>>
>>>>>>> All we can say is that it is not working yet.
>>>>
>>>>>> And it wont, you watch. Replacing the govt produced the
>>>>>> inevitable result, a full civil war, and those dont just go away
>>>>>> by wishing that would happen.
>>>>
>>>>>> Some have lasted for hundreds of years effectively, like with
>>>>>> Ireland.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yep, and there is no civil war in Ireland now, because the english
>>>>> did not give up.
>>>>
>>>> Nope, because the Irish eventually came to their senses, after
>>>> CENTURYS. There isnt a shred of evidence that the stupid rag heads
>>>> in Iraq will be giving up on their civil war any time soon.
>>
>>> If you can get the government of Mexico to get rid of most of their
>>> govt run companies and free up that economy we wouldn't have to
>>> build a fence.
>>
>> Fantasy. The chinese have gone that route and there are STILL hordes
>> of chinese that would move to any first world country that would
>> have them.
>>> Build the Fence!
>>
>> They'd just do an end run around it, like the Cubans do.
> But fewer will try and that's a good thing.
Sure, if you're prepare to spend the non trivial amount of money that a useful wall would cost.
> But any market reform in Mexico would be better than what they have now.
Wouldnt fix the problem. NAFTA had no effect on the number of illegals.
== 5 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 13 2007 9:25 pm
From: Audie Murphy's Ghost
In article <UumdnYhkCvRlDYzanZ2dnUVZ_uqvnZ2d@comcast.com>, Rick
<videojockey1a@yahoo.comzzzz> wrote:
> "Audie Murphy's Ghost" <takebackamerica@2008.com> wrote in message
> news:131020071750204047%takebackamerica@2008.com...
> > In article <BJOdnWmJUqLIgozanZ2dnUVZ_quhnZ2d@comcast.com>, Rick
> > <videojockey1a@yahoo.comzzzz> wrote:
> >
> >> Build the Fence!
> >
> >
> > That's exactly what Nikita Khrushchev said, and look how well *that*
> > worked out.
> >
> > I guess they knew what they were doing when they named them the "red
> > states."
>
> But Khrushchev was keeping the East Germans from leaving. We just want to
> keep the criminals and terrorists out.
No, you don't. You want to keep the Mexicans out, whether they're
crooked or not, whether they work hard or not, whether they contribute
to the tax base or not. If you want to keep the terrorists out, then
where's the wall between the U.S. and Canada? Good luck trying to get
that one built, BTW, as the Canadians won't put up with that shit.
Walls don't work, except to tag those who build them as the debris of
history -- for instance, the Soviets, who built the one in Berlin.
BTW, seen the stories about American farmers whose operations are being
disrupted by the wall? Some of them can no longer get their livestock
to water sources. Since it's a desert, this is somewhat of a problem
-- not that the piss-ant politicians care about that sort of thing.
== 6 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 13 2007 9:40 pm
From: David Johnston
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 22:27:27 -0400, Thanatos <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
>> > And the penalty for possession of fake federal documents
>> > should be a felony.
>
>> Wont stop them.
>
>Name me one criminal law that has ever actually stopped people from
>committing the act that's criminalized. Yet no one sane is suggesting we
>scrap the entire penal code just because it doesn't induce 100%
>compliance.
You already have a fairly gigantic prison population. How easily will
your prison system deal with being multiplied four times or more?
== 7 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 13 2007 11:00 pm
From: "Rod Speed"
Audie Murphy's Ghost <takebackamerica@2008.com> wrote:
> In article <UumdnYhkCvRlDYzanZ2dnUVZ_uqvnZ2d@comcast.com>, Rick
> <videojockey1a@yahoo.comzzzz> wrote:
>
>> "Audie Murphy's Ghost" <takebackamerica@2008.com> wrote in message
>> news:131020071750204047%takebackamerica@2008.com...
>>> In article <BJOdnWmJUqLIgozanZ2dnUVZ_quhnZ2d@comcast.com>, Rick
>>> <videojockey1a@yahoo.comzzzz> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Build the Fence!
>>>
>>>
>>> That's exactly what Nikita Khrushchev said, and look how well *that*
>>> worked out.
>>>
>>> I guess they knew what they were doing when they named them the "red
>>> states."
>>
>> But Khrushchev was keeping the East Germans from leaving. We just
>> want to keep the criminals and terrorists out.
>
>
> No, you don't. You want to keep the Mexicans out, whether they're
> crooked or not, whether they work hard or not, whether they contribute
> to the tax base or not. If you want to keep the terrorists out, then
> where's the wall between the U.S. and Canada? Good luck trying to get
> that one built, BTW, as the Canadians won't put up with that shit.
They get no say on that if its built on US land.
> Walls don't work,
Have fun explaining the one in Isreal that works fine, dramatically reducing
the number who avoid checkpoints between Isreal and Palestine etc.
> except to tag those who build them as the debris of
> history -- for instance, the Soviets, who built the one in Berlin.
It worked too.
> BTW, seen the stories about American farmers whose operations are
> being disrupted by the wall? Some of them can no longer get their
> livestock to water sources. Since it's a desert, this is somewhat of
> a problem -- not that the piss-ant politicians care about that sort of thing.
== 8 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 13 2007 11:29 pm
From: Audie Murphy's Ghost
In article <5ndpkaFhm336U1@mid.individual.net>, Rod Speed
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
> Audie Murphy's Ghost <takebackamerica@2008.com> wrote:
> > In article <UumdnYhkCvRlDYzanZ2dnUVZ_uqvnZ2d@comcast.com>, Rick
> > <videojockey1a@yahoo.comzzzz> wrote:
> >
> >> "Audie Murphy's Ghost" <takebackamerica@2008.com> wrote in message
> >> news:131020071750204047%takebackamerica@2008.com...
> >>> In article <BJOdnWmJUqLIgozanZ2dnUVZ_quhnZ2d@comcast.com>, Rick
> >>> <videojockey1a@yahoo.comzzzz> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Build the Fence!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> That's exactly what Nikita Khrushchev said, and look how well *that*
> >>> worked out.
> >>>
> >>> I guess they knew what they were doing when they named them the "red
> >>> states."
> >>
> >> But Khrushchev was keeping the East Germans from leaving. We just
> >> want to keep the criminals and terrorists out.
> >
> >
> > No, you don't. You want to keep the Mexicans out, whether they're
> > crooked or not, whether they work hard or not, whether they contribute
> > to the tax base or not. If you want to keep the terrorists out, then
> > where's the wall between the U.S. and Canada? Good luck trying to get
> > that one built, BTW, as the Canadians won't put up with that shit.
>
> They get no say on that if its built on US land.
Sure they do. You think we can do whatever we want, whenever we want,
without respect to treaty or precedent. There would be fallout all
over the place -- trade agreements, cultural exchanges, tourism,
everything.
I wouldn't be surprised if some raving lunatic suggests building a wall
along the U.S.-Canadian border, too, because some politicians love
simple ideas, no matter how much they cost or how damned foolish they
are. They draw votes from simpletons, which is really what all this is
about.
> > Walls don't work,
>
> Have fun explaining the one in Isreal that works fine, dramatically reducing
> the number who avoid checkpoints between Isreal and Palestine etc.
"Isreal" doesn't have the vast amount of space to defend that the U.S.
does. The Israeli wall is about 440 miles long, and a third of it
hasn't even been built yet. It doesn't seem very important to the
Israelis, either, since construction is at least seven years behind
schedule. The U.S.-Canadian border is almost 4,000 miles long,
counting Alaska. There is simply no comparison.
How much of the national budget do you want to spend on these walls?
How are you going to patrol and maintain them? How are you going to
pay for all this? And what are you going to do about the coastlines?
Build seawalls?
> > except to tag those who build them as the debris of
> > history -- for instance, the Soviets, who built the one in Berlin.
>
> It worked too.
The hell it did. Your pals the Soviets cut the flow of people, but it
cost them a political black eye that lingers to this day. You're
probably the only one left who still approves of the Berlin Wall.
> > BTW, seen the stories about American farmers whose operations are
> > being disrupted by the wall? Some of them can no longer get their
> > livestock to water sources. Since it's a desert, this is somewhat of
> > a problem -- not that the piss-ant politicians care about that sort of thing.
I left this in because you ignored it.
== 9 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 13 2007 11:57 pm
From: David Johnston
On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 16:00:43 +1000, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Walls don't work,
>
>Have fun explaining the one in Isreal that works fine, dramatically reducing
>the number who avoid checkpoints between Isreal and Palestine etc.
What he should have said was "Walls don't work over frontiers that are
more than a thousand miles long just on land plus gigantic
coastlines."
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== 1 of 1 ==
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TOPIC: Ugly Dish Antennas Nauseate Me
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8fd795758fa3f8c5?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 13 2007 9:28 pm
From: "Rod Speed"
Siskuwihane <Siskuwihane@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 13, 6:09 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Siskuwihane <Siskuwih...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Oct 13, 5:43 pm, Siskuwihane <Siskuwih...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Oct 13, 5:40 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Anthony Matonak <anthony...@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>> unreelis...@aol.com wrote:
>>>>>>> I can't believe how many people are sticking those godawful gray
>>>>>>> dishes on the FRONT of their otherwise beautiful homes.
>>
>>>>>> As others have said, the owners probably left it up to the
>>>>>> underpaid installers to choose the location. These installers
>>>>>> don't care about appearances. This is the same reason that the
>>>>>> trash cans hardly ever match the style of the house.
>>
>>>>>>> I was driving to work and went past a row of old beautiful well-
>>>>>>> maintained gingerbread homes from around, oh, 1890's, and lo
>>>>>>> and behold, the disgusting dish was popping out on the porch of
>>>>>>> one of them.
>>
>>>>>> A row of stepford homes, all alike, strikes me as one of the
>>>>>> ugliest things in the world. Gingerbread homes are especially
>>>>>> ugly, only to be surpassed by the McMansion cubes that are
>>>>>> sprouting up like weeds these days.
>>
>>>>>> On a frugal note, as long as it doesn't contain metal, you can
>>>>>> paint these dishes any color or pattern you like.
>>
>>>>> Doesnt matter if it does contain metal. The dish itself is metal.
>>
>>>> No they're not
>>
>>> Should be, not all of them, mine is ABS.
>>
>> Which has a metallised surface. Wont work if it doesnt.
> Nope, they can have a mesh embedded in them.
Pity that a paint with metal in it wont be a problem with those.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: For those who rarely fill their refrigerators.....
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5e16d6f7a7266491?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 13 2007 9:49 pm
From: timeOday
Abe wrote:
> I think you need something with mass.
Nah, air in airtight containers won't flow out of the fridge when you
open the door any more than water would.
Of course when you open the door the air bottles will absorb a little
heat from the ambient air, but so would water bottles.
Somebody mentioned keeping the fridge cold during a power outage, which
is a different matter...
==============================================================================
TOPIC: "Ask Amy": What do you owe to parents while you're in school?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ac88d29cbf7fb41d?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 13 2007 10:07 pm
From: Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply
lenona321@yahoo.com wrote:
> Your opinions?
> Lenona.
His mother was not businesslike with him in the past. She was his mom
and helping him out. Even Dear Abby says that adult children living in
their parents' home should pay their parents some percentage like a
fourth or a third of their income for room and board. Just because she
gave him a free ride in the past doesn't mean she is obligated to do it
forever.
"Chipping in around the house" to me sounds like she wants him to do
other chores other than babysitting. Sounds more than reasonable to me.
And if he thinks she offered him no economic assistance at all for those
years, he needs to move out and find out exactly how much economic
assistance she did offer.
--
Every job is a self-portrait of the person who does it. Autograph your
work with excellence.
== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 13 2007 10:08 pm
From: Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply
Lou wrote:
> On the other hand, a paying boarder wouldn't normally be expected to do
> chores around the house. An adult with a full time job should be expected
> to pull his own weight.
People who rent rooms and/or share houses around here are indeed
expected to help with chores.
--
Every job is a self-portrait of the person who does it. Autograph your
work with excellence.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: 10.00 mastercard prepaid - FREE
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 13 2007 10:26 pm
From: "wingsofglory1@gmail.com"
I have referrals for a 10.00 free prepaid MasterCard email me your
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the group- ill send it right away take care Christine
wingsofglory1@gmail.com
== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 13 2007 10:40 pm
From: George Grapman
wingsofglory1@gmail.com wrote:
> I have referrals for a 10.00 free prepaid MasterCard email me your
> first name and email only wingsofglory1@gmail.com
> and ill send you one you need a cell or home phone number to sign up-
> they can be reloaded too- but you don't have too you can just use the
> 10.00 and then throw it away- free gas, diapers, whatever you need i
> hope this helps some folks out a bit, I don't have money either and
> sometimes 10.00 makes the difference it arrives in 5 business days and
> its verified it does come- PLEASE ONLY REQUEST IT IF YOUR GONNA SIGN
> UP YOU DO NEED TO GIVE YOUR SOCIAL SEC # BECAUSE IT IS A CREDIT CARD
> BUT THERE ARE NO CREDIT CHECKS. IT'S TO VERIFY WHO YOU ARE BECAUSE
> OF THE PATRIOTIC ACT I WONT SEE YOUR PERSONAL INFO if you want one
> just email me directly, (click on my email link) please donot post to
> the group- ill send it right away take care Christine
> wingsofglory1@gmail.com
>
Right. A gmail poster wants personal info. A debit card requires no info
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