Frugal Living: 24 new messages in 12 topics

Monday, December 3, 2007

24 new messages in 12 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Why cant I get a loan?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/880a39a4c43b6341?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 3 2007 5:38 pm
From: yishecn@gmail.com

For some people getting a loan can seem impossible, due to poor credit
or other circumstances out of their control. If you are one of those
people, then you need not worry because there are ways to improve your
circumstances so that you can get the loan that you want. If you
follow these simple steps, then you can improve your financial status
and get the best loan deal for your individual requirements.

Why cant I get a loan?(http://www.ukloansreferral.com/personal-loans/
improving-your-circumstances-to-get-a-loan.html)

There are many reasons why people cannot get the loan they want. The
most common reason is that your credit rating is poor, either due to a
mistake or the fact that you have had problems with debt in the past.
You may also be refused a loan because you have never borrowed before
and so are an unknown risk to the lender. If you find yourself unable
to get the loan you want, then you should try and improve your
circumstances to remedy the situation.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Renting VS Buying Homes
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/37be5c6af5aee907?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 3 2007 5:43 pm
From: val189

On Dec 3, 10:59 am, Chad <chadfs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> hi,
>
> I know this topic has been discussed for a long time and at many
> places. But when I came to this question recently, I still keep
> thinking, "is it worth to buy a house now? even the market right now
> seems nice to buyers." Because every person's financial situation is
> different. In order to find out the exact answer, I made this web page
> to do some calculation.
> The basic idea is to let both renting and buying sides start with the
> same amount of money, and spend the same amount of money every month.
> At the end, see which side is richer.
> There are many factors I did not include in the calculation such as
> inflation on HOA, insurance which will make it harder and harder to
> calculate.
> Here is the link:http://rentingvsbuying.chadstown.com/
> Do you guys think if the calculation makes sense?
> Thanks.

I don't know your age, income, tax bracket, other expenses etc. but I
can tell you that I regret the years I rented and never regretted
ownership, which turned out to be profitable in the long run.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 3 2007 6:28 pm
From: clams casino

Lou wrote:

>"Chad" <c
>
>
>Just off the top of my head, $200/year for insurance and repairs is a wild
>underestimate. 5% interest rate on a mortgage is not real realistic either.
>In New Jersey, $1,500 a year for property taxes is maybe 25% of the average
>residential property tax bill.
>

The numbers will obviously vary significantly around the country, but...

I'm paying almost .001% of my current home value in insurance, my credit
union is offering fixed rate loans in the 5.5 - 6% range and my property
tax is about 1.3% of its current value.

If one is looking at a 250k home, that could be about $250/yr insurance,
$3000/yr in property taxes and a 30yr loan at 5.5% would be $496
principle / $639 monthly interest at the half way mark (180th payment),
assuming a 20% down payment ($200k loan). That would be about $909/mo
in insurance, taxes & interest (plus utilities & maintenance which could
easily be another 1.0% / yr (perhaps $200/mo when it comes time to
replace the roof, paint, replace a few hot water heaters, appliances,
carpeting etc over the life of a home - none of which are a concern when
renting).

> $2,000 for closing costs also seems very
>low. Around here, $800/month rent wouldn't get you much. Some rentals
>include utilities, some do not, but a homeowner never has someone else
>paying the utility bills, and I don't see an allowance for those under
>either scenario. I don't know where you're getting the 30% tax rate on the
>sale of a house, but the rollover rule and the one-time lifetime exemption
>make that seem very high.
>

There should be essentially no tax on the gain of selling most homes
($500k) which is the primary financial reason to own a home.

> A 3% annual house appreciation also seems low
>(the average ove the last 20 years or so is on the order of 4%-5%).
>
I've also read about 5% / yr appreciation has been more typical over the
past 25 or so years and $1100 rent probably doesn't get much over 1000
ft2, but it should include water/ sewer and sometimes heat..

> The 8%
>investment income rate is a low as well (the S&P over the last 20 years or
>so averages 9%-10%).
>

9-10% over the very long haul, but certainly NOT near that over the past
10 years.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 3 2007 7:56 pm
From: Gordon

Chad <chadfsjob@yahoo.com> wrote in news:f0fb1708-a9f5-4b12-a641-
4d3fce9b9cef@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:

> hi,
>
> I know this topic has been discussed for a long time and at many
> places. But when I came to this question recently, I still keep
> thinking, "is it worth to buy a house now? even the market right now
> seems nice to buyers." Because every person's financial situation is
> different. In order to find out the exact answer, I made this web page
> to do some calculation.
> The basic idea is to let both renting and buying sides start with the
> same amount of money, and spend the same amount of money every month.
> At the end, see which side is richer.
> There are many factors I did not include in the calculation such as
> inflation on HOA, insurance which will make it harder and harder to
> calculate.
> Here is the link: http://rentingvsbuying.chadstown.com/
> Do you guys think if the calculation makes sense?
> Thanks.

You are ignoring the long term advantages of home ownership.

1) Apprieciation. The value of your home will increase over time.
Current market dynamics excepted, there will be the occasional
downturn. But in the long run the trend will be up.

2) Taxes. rent is not tax deductable. Mortgage intrest is.

3) Equity building. As you pay down the mortgage and the value
of your home increases, you get build up equity in your home.
This is money that you get when you eventually sell (or take out
a home equity loan). This equity becomes the down payment on the
next house, letting you buy into bigger and larger properties
without creating a large monthly payment.

4) Payment stability. (unless you buy an ARM with a teaser rate).
your monthly payment will not rise from year to year, while rents
will.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How much do you really save turning down the thermostat?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e6b14ffb2d998b9e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 3 2007 5:46 pm
From: "Lou"

"Jeff" <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote in message
news:13l6lhkqutghpd5@corp.supernews.com...
> A small cold air leak is a lot of BTUs going out the door. Look for any
> holes in your house envelope and fix those. Then attack the least
> insulated parts of your home.
>
> The formula for heat loss through insulation is simple:
>
> (Area (in SF)/ R value) * (T Indoors F - T Outdoors F)
>
> So 20 SF of R1 single pane windows will lose 1000 BTUs/hr if it is
> 70F inside and 20F outside. And much more if there is any air leakage.

To give that number a little perspective, a gallon of home heating oil
contains about 139,000 BTU. Your furnace doesn't deliver all that as heat,
some goes up the chimney. If your furnace is 80% efficient, you get roughly
111,200 BTU out of a gallon. So that window causes you to burn an extra
gallon of oil every 111 hours, or very roughly every 4.5 days. 4-5 of those
windows will mean burning an extra gallon of oil a day. Assuming a constant
temperature difference.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 3 2007 5:48 pm
From: "Lou"

"Joe" <joe5345@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:775ea665-c2b7-4a8e-b0ad-69534e10c11d@y43g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
> I'd keep my thermostat at 60 if it were just me but I have a boney
> wife who tells me it's freezing if the temp drops below 67 and two
> children that kick their covers off at night. I was hoping some frugal
> person out there would have done the math for their own house to tell
> me how much they save by turning down their thermostat. A dollar a day
> is more than worth it not to hear my wife bitch but for 2-5 dollars I
> might just buy ear plugs.

If it's cooler, the kids will stop kicking their covers off - chances are
they're doing that because they're too warm.

The math for my house wouldn't tell you anything about your house.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 3 2007 8:01 pm
From: Anthony Matonak

Lou wrote:
...
> If it's cooler, the kids will stop kicking their covers off - chances are
> they're doing that because they're too warm.

I'll second that. I've noticed that when the temperature drops under
40F in my bedroom the last thing I'll do is kick the covers off. :)

Anthony

==============================================================================
TOPIC: make money with bux!!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4becd5bdeb9c85dd?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 3 2007 5:52 pm
From: beronz

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Save on Computers & Electronics
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f101a9f0cf43c6e9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 3 2007 5:54 pm
From: moneymaker

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Living without a credit card
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1543df3db7e868b6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 3 2007 5:56 pm
From: krw

In article <4753a594$0$2350$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>, lshaw-
usenet@austin.rr.com says...
> The Real Bev wrote:
> > Yes, if I KNEW where I was going to be shopping before I go out I could
> > select only the card(s) I need. I could say the same about my key ring,
> > but I don't. I truly envy people who just carry the keys for the car
> > they're driving; I have keys for 3 vehicles, 2 houses, 2 bicycle locks
> > and a garage key. Keys for one car and the second and a third house are
> > in my purse, but not on my key ring.

I usually have just a few keys on my ring, but recently I had the
keys for two cars (two large keys), my house (two), two apartments
(seven), and a half dozen padlocks, trunks, toolboxes, and who knows
what. My wife thought I'd become a janitor or something. We sold
the house a couple of weeks ago and just got rid of the second
apartment keys today. Now, to match all the padlocks and storage
boxes.

> It could be worse. You could be like me: I have two keys on my keychain
> that I *know* for sure I do not need any longer on account of the fact that
> the building whose doors they open was torn down a couple of years ago.
> The only problem is that I can't remember for sure which two keys they are.
> And for various reasons, I can't easily check all the other keys and figure
> it out by process of elimination.

That's easy. Throw two keys away - any two. Those will be the two
most important of the keys. Rinse, repeat.

--
Keith

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 3 2007 5:56 pm
From: krw

In article <qQI4j.107$Cg.30@newsfe10.lga>, eleeper@optonline.net
says...
> krw wrote:
> > In article <_ISdnV-SdvmObc_anZ2dnUVZ_tKdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
> > noemall@xyz.net says...
> >>> Can't help - Since I always pay all balance every month when due every
> >>> month, I don't have any problems. In fact, by paying them off every
> >>> month, I realize a good $500+ gain every year in rebates.
> >>>
> >> Wow, that is fantastic! Which card do you use and how much do you have to
> >> spend to get back $500?
> >>
> > I won't be getting back anything close to $500 but likely over half
> > that before we're done. We recently moved and used an AmEx for
> > pretty much all those expenses, stuff needed for the new place, and
> > business expenses (hotels, food, computer,...). The (up to) two
> > month float is nice too.
>
> We have a Visa card that pays 1.25% on everything (and I think 5% on
> gas). By the time you charge groceries, gas, charitable contributions,
> prescription costs, dentist bills, travel expenses, etc., it adds up
> pretty fast. (We're only two people and will be getting back over $300
> this year.)

May I ask which one? THe best I've seen that does that well are
introductory offers (two-six months). My AmEx is 1% on everything,
paid by AmEx "gift card" in $25 increments, which isn't as good as
being applied to my account (thus cash), but close.

> Oh, and we pay off the full balance each month.

That goes without saying. Cash back is pretty stupid if you're
paying 20% interest on any non-trivial balance (and if it is trivial,
why?).

--
Keith

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 3 2007 5:56 pm
From: krw

In article <5rhf9fF1436thU1@mid.individual.net>,
rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com says...
> krw <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote
> > Rod Speed rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com wrote
> >> krw <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote
> >>> PeterGriffin@drunkin- clam.com wrote
>
> >>>> Our preferred method for an emergency fund was to make extra
> >>>> payments against the mortgage where the (extra) equity could be
> >>>> made available in case of emergencies. Fortunately that never
> >>>> materialized, but we did use the equity to buy a few cars - much
> >>>> lower interest rate (especially after deductions) vs. conventional
> >>>> loans. It's unlikely one will find a minimal risk investment
> >>>> paying more than the mortgage interest, especially if the investor
> >>>> is not using deductions via IRS long form.
>
> >>> You could do the same with a slush fund. I never liked borrowing
> >>> against my house, so didn't even for major repairs like a roof.
>
> >> More fool you, it is the cheapest money available.
>
> > No, Ronnie. The cash in my pocket is the cheapest money available.
>
> No it aint. You are much better off financially paying down your
> mortgage with that cash in your pocket and then drawing the
> mortgage down again if you do need to fund an extra purchase.

Wrong again, Ronnie. I don't have a mortgage (sold the house), but
even if I did it's not always possible to take a second mortgage,
particularly if one loses one's job (like you would know about
working). The mortgage should be the first bill paid and that takes
cash, which will be in short supply after.

> >>> That equity, in my mind, was always for housing.
>

--
Keith

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 3 2007 6:02 pm
From: Neil Jones

Scott in SoCal wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 08:06:37 -0500, Neil Jones
> <castellan2004-atnews@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I have problem with credit cards. I flash them for gas, sometimes for
>> lunch, groceries etc. They are the small ticket items but are
>> accumulating on my balance. Now that I have accepted that I have a
>> problem, I want to really wean out of this reliance on credit card.
>
> Your problem is not credit cards per se. You problem is that you are
> not living within your means. In general, paying with a credit card is
> no worse than paying with cash (and sometimes better, since some
> credit cards pay cash rewards for using them). The problems only come
> in when you don't pay your balance in full each month.
>
>> Please share with me if anyone in this forum had this problem and have
>> successfully detached from the credit card. The balance is really
>> stressing me out.
>
> I had problems similar to yours many years ago, but my solution was to
> stop spending more money than I earned. I still have all my credit
> cards, BTW - I never cut them up or froze them in a block of ice or
> any of that crap. Those are crutches for people who are too
> weak-willed to stick to a spending plan. The real way to solve your
> problem is to develop some fiscal discipline.

Thank you for encouraging some financial introspection. My CC balance
went up to 12K in August. I managed to bring it back down (by dipping
into savings etc) to 3K and now it is creeping backup to 6K. This
scares me. Long time ago (early 90's), I used Discover card since it
was not readily accepted. Now I cannot shelter myself from card
acceptance/rejection by business establishments. It looks like they
take any card these days. I am want to give up the cards and use cash
only transactions. Hopefully that will help me develop some fiscal
discipline.

Thank you all for replying to the post!

NJ
---------------------
Random URL found on the Internet
http://memoriter.net/flash/test.html

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 3 2007 6:17 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

krw <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote
> Rod Speed rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com says...
>> krw <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote
>>> Rod Speed rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com wrote
>>>> krw <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote
>>>>> PeterGriffin@drunkin- clam.com wrote

>>>>>> Our preferred method for an emergency fund was to make extra
>>>>>> payments against the mortgage where the (extra) equity could be
>>>>>> made available in case of emergencies. Fortunately that never
>>>>>> materialized, but we did use the equity to buy a few cars - much
>>>>>> lower interest rate (especially after deductions) vs.
>>>>>> conventional loans. It's unlikely one will find a minimal risk
>>>>>> investment paying more than the mortgage interest, especially if
>>>>>> the investor is not using deductions via IRS long form.

>>>>> You could do the same with a slush fund. I never liked borrowing
>>>>> against my house, so didn't even for major repairs like a roof.

>>>> More fool you, it is the cheapest money available.

>>> No, Ronnie. The cash in my pocket is the cheapest money available.

>> No it aint. You are much better off financially paying down your
>> mortgage with that cash in your pocket and then drawing the
>> mortgage down again if you do need to fund an extra purchase.

> Wrong again, Ronnie.

Nope.

> I don't have a mortgage (sold the house), but even if
> I did it's not always possible to take a second mortgage,

Wasnt talking about a second mortgage, I was talking about a
mortgage where you can pay it down at a faster rate any time
you want and draw it down some more whenever you need to.

> particularly if one loses one's job

You can still do what I was talking about even if you lose the job.

> The mortgage should be the first bill paid and that
> takes cash, which will be in short supply after.

Wrong when you can just draw down the mortgage
of at least what you paid early in that situation.

>>>>> That equity, in my mind, was always for housing.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: more laptop selection help
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/614f763badc82c6b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 3 2007 5:56 pm
From: krw

In article <XGJ4j.247$tR6.154@newsfe06.lga>, bashley101
+usenet@gmail.com says...
> On a completely different note: Do laptops generally come with a
> recovery disk to at least put the system back to the way it was when it
> came out of the box? How good are they?
>
No, but you can generally make one. I just bought another Lenovo
ThinkPad (my third T6x). It was delivered last Tuesday and my first
task was to create the backup disks, with the system as virgin as I
could get it. I couldn't do the backup to DVD because evidently the
preload is bad. I called the help desk and they've "consented[*]" to
shipping me the disk to reload it myself. We'll see if reloading the
preload solves the problem.

[*] The guy was so nice when he told me what a favor he was doing my
be sending me the disk (rather than shipping the thing back - on
them). If my system worked, as sold, it would have cost $45. Wow, I
was simply speechless!

--
Keith

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 3 2007 5:56 pm
From: krw

In article <ZoM4j.128$gJ2.105@newsfe05.lga>, bashley101
+usenet@gmail.com says...
> Rod Speed wrote:
>
> > The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On a completely different note: Do laptops generally come with a
> >> recovery disk to at least put the system back to the way it was
> >> when it came out of the box?
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> >> How good are they?
> >
> > They do that job very well. Most of them dont however save what you
> > have done since you got the laptop, like emails etc, you lose that if
> > you didnt back it up before the restore.
> >
> > And with a modern OS like XP you normally want to do a repair install
> > when the OS install has gone pear shaped, because that doesnt lose
> > your data or settings and they dont usually come with a CD that can
> > do a repair install.
>
> I was thinking more about a possible format-and-install-linux problem.

If they don't provide the initial disks they provide a means to make
them from the disk. It seems to work. I've had to resort to backups
before and they're clean, though I generally do it to USB disk.

> If that won't work on one of the cheap laptops for some reason, is it
> possible to get back to the OS it came with? Actually, I'd rather put
> 2K or XP on it than Vista if I can't have linux...

Good choice. At least some of the laptop makers still ship XP
(highly recommended if you need/want Win). Vista is a disaster
that's finished waiting. Stay away! As much as I liked 2K (more
than XP) is a tad long-in-the-tooth to be putting on a new system.
There are lots of things it's missing that I care about.

--
Keith

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Free insulation
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/23818014c060caae?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 3 2007 6:01 pm
From: websurf1@cox.net

On Dec 3, 1:48 pm, Usenet2...@THE-DOMAIN-IN.SIG <Usenet2...@THE-DOMAIN-
IN.SIG> wrote:
> In article <georgek-CE1F51.07481603122...@sn-ip.vsrv-
> sjc.supernews.net>, geor...@humboldt1.com says...
>
> > Lots of "Popcorn" is available. you know the styrofoam peanuts that are
> > used in packing boxes.
> > Use it to fill cavities and voids in your building. Be cautious as it can
> > burn.
>
> Not only can it burn, but my understanding is that it can give
> off extremely toxic fumes while burning. Sounds like a bad idea.
>
> --
> Earn Money With Your Web Sitehttp://www.WebSponsorZone.Net
> Web Site Advertising Directory

Not only that, but since there would be lots of spaces between the
peanuts, it wouldn't be a really good insulation either. It'd help
some, but not much. The cavities would have to be nearly perfectly
sealed against a windblown draft.

Some shipping places (Mail Boxes Etc.) will take them from you for
free, and re-use them.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 3 2007 8:42 pm
From: Logan Shaw

A Veteran wrote:
> Lots of "Popcorn" is available. you know the styrofoam peanuts that are
> used in packing boxes.
> Use it to fill cavities and voids in your building. Be cautious as it can
> burn.

No thanks. When I was in junior high, a classmate's house burned
completely to the ground when the plumber caught some of the insulation
on fire. I can only imagine how much easier that could happen with a
material not designed for construction.

They were a relatively successful family and they were able to bounce
back, I'm sure in no small part because their homeowner's insurance
paid for a new house (and to replace all the stuff in it). I wonder
if the homeowner's insurance would pay if they knew you filled your
walls with an unapproved, flammable material. I'm thinking they
would decide to keep their money. You'd quite possibly be out the
value of your house and everything in it.

Also, good luck selling such a house if a good building inspector
uncovers what you did. You'll have to pay to have it all fixed
properly. Somehow I doubt that'd be worth it financially.

- Logan

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 3 2007 8:58 pm
From: Jeff

A Veteran wrote:
> Lots of "Popcorn" is available. you know the styrofoam peanuts that are
> used in packing boxes.

Just don't.

Cocoon cellulose insulation is $8 a big bag that will fill 60 SF to
R13. You can dense pack wall cavities at about half that coverage.

Not only is it a great insulation, it also is a good fire retardant.
It's cheap and effective, as opposed to styro peanuts that are free,
yet ineffective.

Jeff

> Use it to fill cavities and voids in your building. Be cautious as it can
> burn.
>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Smart Deal on Designer Clothes @ StyleRunway.com
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f40501c2ed457d5e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 3 2007 6:44 pm
From: reserved908589@hotmail.com

On Nov 22, 6:27 pm, "~StyleRunway~" <bertgueva...@gmail.com> wrote:
> We invite you to take your time looking through our site atwww.stylerunway.com
> to buy luxury goods from Europe and the U.S ranges from and exclusive
> labels such as Dolce & Gabbana, Prada, J. Lindeberg, True Religion,
> Rock and Republic, Juicy Couture, Seven for all mankind Jeans and many
> more. Merchandise purchased are from authorized dealers
> only.
> All of us at Style Runway live and breathe fashion. It's our job and
> our passion. With this in mind, feel free to contact us with any
> questions or requests.

Sad to say this, but I've ordered 2 items from your site during
November 16th, and haven't recieved them yet. I called customer
service a countless amount of times, and I recieve no word. I've
emailed a several amount of times, and I've been givin obscure
messages, with little information on them, some of the emails I have
gotten was the same thing told to me already. I was told that my
items were out of stock, but yet I was still charged on my credit card
and I was not notified, I had to notify you. This is not hate mail,
but if I do not recieve my items I'm reporting.

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TOPIC: Any ATT cell phone users here?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3611a3889da8ef91?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 3 2007 7:44 pm
From: Gordon

me@privacy.net wrote in news:qnn8l39ee3t30ras7il02g3vftfpjrge1v@4ax.com:

> I currently have an unlocked GSM Nokia phone being used
> on another carrier OTHER than ATT
>
> Thinking of going to ATT tho so can I use THIS phone
> with the ATT system thereby avoiding the contract
> commitment?

I WAS an AT&T customer.
I WAS very happy with them and their service.
Until they shut down the TDMA network and forced
us over to the new GSM system. Problem is they
wouldn't honor my existing contract, they wanted
me to pay full price on a new handset. They offered
discounts on a few select handsets that I didn't want.
So when push came to shove, I went over to Sprint.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 3 2007 8:48 pm
From: Logan Shaw

me@privacy.net wrote:
> I currently have an unlocked GSM Nokia phone being used
> on another carrier OTHER than ATT
>
> Thinking of going to ATT tho so can I use THIS phone
> with the ATT system thereby avoiding the contract
> commitment?

If it's unlocked, it should be usable with their network,
provided it supports all the frequencies that they use.
If it's a quad-band phone (a "world phone"), it should.
If it's not, figure out what frequencies it supports and
find out what AT&T uses.

Probably the easiest way to go about all this is to find
a friend who has AT&T service and will let you use their
SIM card for a moment. Take it out of their phone and put
it in yours and see if it works. If it does, your phone
works with the AT&T network. Of course, you'd probably
want to offer to reimburse the friend for any minutes you've
used or do it off-peak if they have a plan where they have
unmetered service at certain times.

You might, for all I know, also be able to go to an AT&T
store and borrow one of their SIM cards and try it out in
the store. I'd just tell them that you have a phone that
you really like a lot and that you want to keep, and you
want to try it out on their network. They usually have phones
in the store with SIM cards in them for demo purposes, or at
least the T-Mobile store does that.

- Logan

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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/dde24c1a6995ab53?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 3 2007 7:52 pm
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TOPIC: Christ in Islam
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/06c4482e668dd598?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 3 2007 7:59 pm
From: Anthony Matonak

Mac Cool wrote:
> George:
>
>>> An elephant that cannot be observed or measured by any means known,
>>> is not an elephant by definition but something else entirely.
>>>
>> That is like saying since by all current definitions there is no cure
>> for cancer so there can never be a cure for cancer.
>
> No, it's like saying that if you cannot see a pink elephant in the room,
> then there is no pink elephant in the room because by definition, pink
> elephants can be seen. Otherwise how would you know it's pink? The same
> would be true of an unknown colored elephant because elephants by their
> nature can be seen.

You are discounting the possibility of a giant pink elephant in the
room that can not be seen, touched, heard, smelled or tested for in
any way. From a practical view, such an elephant could be considered
to not exist because it shows no ordinary signs of existence, like
being seen, heard, etc. but thats just pragmatism.

What I would like to know is...
How do you prove that a negative can never be proven?

Anthony

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Monday, December 3, 2007

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