Frugal Living: 25 new messages in 11 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Inflation
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/043c328b0526b9a5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 10 2008 4:17 pm
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"Patricia Martin Steward" <impatstew@notverizon.net> wrote in message
news:djfp945a2eevofm8p7jni3l1bjvu6c860g@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 03 Aug 2008 02:00:15 GMT, "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"
> <derjda@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>i just read something that inflation is more like 12-14% using pre clinton
>>methodology. so, those of the clinton era did something to change how we
>>calculate inflation so it's now something like 5%. of course, figures
>>lie
>>and liars figure.
>
> Here's what I know: we had it GOOD in the Clinton era -- great
> economy, low unemployment, and he left a surplus behind.
>
> What do we have now?

HE DID NOT LEAVE A SURPLUS. just an illusion of one. not even sure
if the money for the analog airwaves has been collected yet.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 10 2008 6:13 pm
From: clams_casino

AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:

>"Patricia Martin Steward" <impatstew@notverizon.net> wrote in message
>news:djfp945a2eevofm8p7jni3l1bjvu6c860g@4ax.com...
>
>
>>On Sun, 03 Aug 2008 02:00:15 GMT, "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"
>><derjda@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>i just read something that inflation is more like 12-14% using pre clinton
>>>methodology. so, those of the clinton era did something to change how we
>>>calculate inflation so it's now something like 5%. of course, figures
>>>lie
>>>and liars figure.
>>>
>>>
>>Here's what I know: we had it GOOD in the Clinton era -- great
>>economy, low unemployment, and he left a surplus behind.
>>
>>What do we have now?
>>
>>
>
>HE DID NOT LEAVE A SURPLUS. just an illusion of one. not even sure
>if the money for the analog airwaves has been collected yet.
>
>
>
>
Whether or not he left a surplus is obviously up for debate based on how
it is figured.

No matter how it's figured, we the people have well over $0.5T in MORE
debt than when GW was placed in office.

That's not debatable.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 10 2008 6:46 pm
From: don@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein)

In article <knMnk.8604$i15.4413@newsfe01.iad>, clams_casino wrote:
>AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
>
>>"Patricia Martin Steward" <impatstew@notverizon.net> wrote in message
>>news:djfp945a2eevofm8p7jni3l1bjvu6c860g@4ax.com...
>>
>>>On Sun, 03 Aug 2008 02:00:15 GMT, "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"
>>><derjda@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>i just read something that inflation is more like 12-14% using pre clinton
>>>>methodology. so, those of the clinton era did something to change how we
>>>>calculate inflation so it's now something like 5%. of course, figures
>>>>lie and liars figure.
>>>>
>>>Here's what I know: we had it GOOD in the Clinton era -- great
>>>economy, low unemployment, and he left a surplus behind.
>>>
>>>What do we have now?
>>
>>HE DID NOT LEAVE A SURPLUS. just an illusion of one. not even sure
>>if the money for the analog airwaves has been collected yet.
>>
>Whether or not he left a surplus is obviously up for debate based on how
>it is figured.
>
>No matter how it's figured, we the people have well over $0.5T in MORE
>debt than when GW was placed in office.
>
>That's not debatable.

I would debate such a low number for increase of national debt as of
August 2008 since the Shrub took office in 2001. It appears to me more
like 2, maybe 2.5 T$ than half a terabuck.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Some say 'Knowledge is power'... and a way to make a living.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/b8fb9fc6e8757602?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 10 2008 4:21 pm
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"phil scott" <phil@philscott.net> wrote in message
news:cb416452-1bd7-4608-bf56-98626f0829ec@a8g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 7, 7:31 pm, "AllEmailDeletedImmediately" <der...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
snip

> you really are an engineer, aren't you? they tend to be extremely
> focused, which is a good thing :)
>
> Phil scott

yes, Im an ME with digital controls capability. Its not going badly
lately, it was earlier. I had to learn a new game plan. Shortly I
believe the economy is going to go
utterly south.. then it will pay to know all the angles and have
staged to optimize them.

That approach might keep a good man in steaks or at least the
occasional hamburger... if
overhead is low also.

I dont think
many folks have fathomed just how deep a hole we are in
economically..its a world stage
now, the work is moved to china etc.. not a lot in the US relative to
the talent available...
in order to compete in a world market those rates are going down, ..as
the dollar is worth
less and less. double trouble...

search youtube and google for 'prime mortgage loan trouble'... etc.
thats already double from last year 11% or so deliquent..and projected
to triple in the next few months...that pressure will take out a lot
of retail and food sales etc.. a domino effect.

Yes focus is a good thing in some ways, it deprives a person of much
human sensitivity though and that is not a good thing at all.

i've fathomed it. actually fathomed it 15-20 yrs ago. but dh is an
ostrich, and has steadfastly refused to pay attention.

----------------------
"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice
cannot sleep forever."--Thomas Jefferson

"Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide
everything." -- Josef V. Stalin

www.myspace.com/bodybuildinggranny

heavy on the country music. if you don't like country, scroll down for
some surprises.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Frugal ideas
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/b0fb633415061f1d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 10 2008 3:22 pm
From: "JonquilJan"

Im in the HVAC (heating and air business0... servicing yer furnace
once a year is mostly a waste of
money. It its burners are adjusted correctly one time, they stay
that way.. you do need to keep the
filter clean though and oil the fan motor, tose are important.

Oil fan motor - I don't even know where it is. My 'furnace guy' will also
be doing other things as well on his visit. Including possible heat tapes
on the water pipes, possible wall mounted propane heater, possible
installation of additional vent aimed toward problem water pipes (freezing
in the winter). I talked to him last week - even he said ithe furnace
wouldn;t need anything other than changing the filters. Very difficult for
me to manuver the cellar stairs (disabled).

If you have AC coil in the furnance that needs to be cleaned with a
special comb but thats not
done on a furnace service.

No AC.

If your furnace is over 10 years old, or has a lot chucks of rust in
the burner box under the burner heards
then the heat exchanger could be cracked and leaking carbon
MONoxide... bad news. a check might
find that, but most dont have the instruments for a proper check... go
by age of the furnace.

Furnace new last winter.

a new 90% efficient furnace will cost you about $700 wholesale via
granger etc.. thats money better
spent than getting the old one 'serviced'.... (the 98% efficient
furnaces are pure rocket science, i dont recommend them, cost of
repairs and constant adjustments are way way too expensive).. no net
savings there.

See above. Furnace installed - including removal of the old furnace and
installation of additional duct work - ran $1600. And around here - that
was a bargain.

Laky air ducts degrade perofrmance about 10% on average, dont use duct
tape to seal them, stop by a sheet metal shop and buy a bucket of duct
sealant goop from them... 20 bucks... thats best.

See above about disability. Most of the duct work runs through a crawl
space - impossible for me to do anything there.

If you have an old furnace, buy a carbon Monoxide detector and use it.

See above.

to adjust yer burners, look at the individual points of flame, they
need to come to a blue edged point, not billowing open on top or
orange... if thats the case you need to close down the air adjustments
on the burner heads, instructions in the owners manual, or get it on
line... you should search burner adjustment photo's on google
first.... again, once set right, they generally never need to be
adjusted again.

See above.

Phil scott

Thanks Phil for the advice. Mechanical things are just not my thing. I can
grow a decent garden, make a killer apple pie, balance any checkbook, keep
great financial accounts, design a decent landscape planting and fill the
gas tank in the vehicle - but not much else.

Jan

Learn something new every day
As long as you are learning, you are living
When you stop learning, you start dying

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 10 2008 4:57 pm
From: phil scott

On Aug 10, 3:22 pm, "JonquilJan" <war...@imcnet.net> wrote:
> Im in the HVAC (heating and air business0... servicing yer furnace
> once a year is mostly a waste of
> money. It its burners are adjusted correctly one time, they stay
> that way.. you do need to keep the
> filter clean though and oil the fan motor, tose are important.
>
> Oil fan motor - I don't even know where it is. My 'furnace guy' will also
> be doing other things as well on his visit. Including possible heat tapes
> on the water pipes, possible wall mounted propane heater, possible
> installation of additional vent aimed toward problem water pipes (freezing
> in the winter). I talked to him last week - even he said ithe furnace
> wouldn;t need anything other than changing the filters. Very difficult for
> me to manuver the cellar stairs (disabled).
>
> If you have AC coil in the furnance that needs to be cleaned with a
> special comb but thats not
> done on a furnace service.
>
> No AC.
>
> If your furnace is over 10 years old, or has a lot chucks of rust in
> the burner box under the burner heards
> then the heat exchanger could be cracked and leaking carbon
> MONoxide... bad news. a check might
> find that, but most dont have the instruments for a proper check... go
> by age of the furnace.
>
> Furnace new last winter.
>
> a new 90% efficient furnace will cost you about $700 wholesale via
> granger etc.. thats money better
> spent than getting the old one 'serviced'.... (the 98% efficient
> furnaces are pure rocket science, i dont recommend them, cost of
> repairs and constant adjustments are way way too expensive).. no net
> savings there.
>
> See above. Furnace installed - including removal of the old furnace and
> installation of additional duct work - ran $1600. And around here - that
> was a bargain.
>
> Laky air ducts degrade perofrmance about 10% on average, dont use duct
> tape to seal them, stop by a sheet metal shop and buy a bucket of duct
> sealant goop from them... 20 bucks... thats best.
>
> See above about disability. Most of the duct work runs through a crawl
> space - impossible for me to do anything there.
>
> If you have an old furnace, buy a carbon Monoxide detector and use it.
>
> See above.
>
> to adjust yer burners, look at the individual points of flame, they
> need to come to a blue edged point, not billowing open on top or
> orange... if thats the case you need to close down the air adjustments
> on the burner heads, instructions in the owners manual, or get it on
> line... you should search burner adjustment photo's on google
> first.... again, once set right, they generally never need to be
> adjusted again.
>
> See above.
>
> Phil scott
>
> Thanks Phil for the advice. Mechanical things are just not my thing. I can
> grow a decent garden, make a killer apple pie, balance any checkbook, keep
> great financial accounts, design a decent landscape planting and fill the
> gas tank in the vehicle - but not much else.
>
> Jan

your furnace guy sounds like a good guy... 1600 installed was not out
of line either... many will try to get 4 or 5,000 dollars for that
sort of job.

that furnace (if its gas) will last a frugal user at least 10 years
with no service except filter
changing, motor bearings are probably sealed, needs no oil.

Phil scott

>
> Learn something new every day
> As long as you are learning, you are living
> When you stop learning, you start dying

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 10 2008 5:12 pm
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"phil scott" <phil@philscott.net> wrote in message
news:ac90b18b-42ee-49d4-8890-05425f9c36b0@r35g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 10, 3:22 pm, "JonquilJan" <war...@imcnet.net> wrote:

snip

> Thanks Phil for the advice. Mechanical things are just not my thing. I can
> grow a decent garden, make a killer apple pie, balance any checkbook, keep
> great financial accounts, design a decent landscape planting and fill the
> gas tank in the vehicle - but not much else.
>
> Jan

your furnace guy sounds like a good guy... 1600 installed was not out
of line either... many will try to get 4 or 5,000 dollars for that
sort of job.

that furnace (if its gas) will last a frugal user at least 10 years
with no service except filter
changing, motor bearings are probably sealed, needs no oil.

the gas furnace in our house was put in around 1955. the
furnace guy says it's operating at a decent efficiency and that we
shouldn't change it out yet.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 10 2008 5:31 pm
From: phil scott

On Aug 10, 5:12 pm, "AllEmailDeletedImmediately" <der...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> "phil scott" <p...@philscott.net> wrote in message
>
> news:ac90b18b-42ee-49d4-8890-05425f9c36b0@r35g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 10, 3:22 pm, "JonquilJan" <war...@imcnet.net> wrote:
>
> snip
>
> > Thanks Phil for the advice. Mechanical things are just not my thing. I can
> > grow a decent garden, make a killer apple pie, balance any checkbook, keep
> > great financial accounts, design a decent landscape planting and fill the
> > gas tank in the vehicle - but not much else.
>
> > Jan
>
> your furnace guy sounds like a good guy... 1600 installed was not out
> of line either... many will try to get 4 or 5,000 dollars for that
> sort of job.
>
> that furnace (if its gas) will last a frugal user at least 10 years
> with no service except filter
> changing, motor bearings are probably sealed, needs no oil.
>
> the gas furnace in our house was put in around 1955. the
> furnace guy says it's operating at a decent efficiency and that we
> shouldn't change it out yet.

hes probably correct...thats old though. some that old get cracks in
the heat exchanger and leak carbon monoxide into the occupied
space.... look under the burner area for large chunks of rust and
debris... if there is a lot, its not a good sign. if no chunks of
rust under there that is unusual and means the heat x is probably not
rusted etc.

it may be only 60% efficient. Look on the name plate for input
btu's and for output btu's
figure the percent efficiency from there. its probably in the range
of 100,000 btu/hr in... and 60 or 80,000 btu/hr out. if its much
worse than 80%.. Id get a new one.

maybe its 120,000 input and 100,000 output... that would be 80%
efficient.

any simple furnace repair, motor, gas valve or safety limit
replacement can cost a third as much as getting a replacement...at
that age Id replace it at the first glitch especially if there are
chunks of rust in the burner compartment.

Phil scott

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 10 2008 5:31 pm
From: "JonquilJan"

>
> Thanks Phil for the advice. Mechanical things are just not my thing. I can
> grow a decent garden, make a killer apple pie, balance any checkbook, keep
> great financial accounts, design a decent landscape planting and fill the
> gas tank in the vehicle - but not much else.
>
> Jan

your furnace guy sounds like a good guy... 1600 installed was not out
of line either... many will try to get 4 or 5,000 dollars for that
sort of job.

that furnace (if its gas) will last a frugal user at least 10 years
with no service except filter
changing, motor bearings are probably sealed, needs no oil.

Phil scott

Furnace is propane - as is my stove. He also replaced my hot water
heater - which was propane - but had not worked for 5+ years. Found out it
was venting directly into the basement. Very, very old house. Both heater
and furnace were not new when I moved in here - 27 years ago. I now have an
electric hot water heater - which is only adding $10 a month to my electric
bill ($30 for last month). And I sure am enjoying those hot showers!!

And yes, he is a good guy. He worked for many years for the local
repair/installation shop and knew all the ins and outs of my very old house.
Then he went on his own - and I stayed with him. He is very busy - and
very successful on his own.

Jan

Learn something new every day
As long as you are learning, you are living
When you stop learning, you start dying

==============================================================================
TOPIC: To juice or not.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/bb065ec0061ab7cd?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 10 2008 5:38 pm
From: "Gregory Morrow"

clams_casino wrote:

> Gregory Morrow wrote:
>
> >clams_casino wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>"Clinton and Gore were responsible for pressing almost all federal
> >>>>agencies, the U.S. court system and the U.S. military onto the
Internet,
> >>>>thus opening up America's government to more of America's citizens
than
> >>>>ever before."
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>as most likely would have any other president during that timeframe.
no
> >>>way we'll ever know if it is something special, just to clinton.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>As if McBush has any idea how to even turn on a
computer..................
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >To do *what* - waste time on silly Usenet groups...???
> >
> >He's a very busy guy, he has all kinds of aides and staffers and
underlings
> >to do his "grunt work", he doesn't need to use a computer to communicate
or
> >get his news...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> I can't imagine a CEO today who is not fully computer literate.
>
> Of course, those in McBush's generation have long retired.

If it's any comfort to you I've read that Bill Clinton is computer -
illiterate too...

:-)

--
Best
Greg

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 10 2008 7:31 pm
From: Pan

On Sat, 09 Aug 2008 17:00:19 -0400, clams_casino
>
>OK. I'm beginning to understand. Since you've only started investing
>within the last six years, it's becoming evident that you are way too
>young to have lived the good times in the Clinton years.

Wrong again. I'm 67 years old, and I have been investing since about
1965.
>
>On the other hand, considering your obvious illusions about the Bush
>years, somehow I've very doubtful you timed significant investments at
>the trough.

Well yes I sure you would know that. Are you clairvoyant?
>
>
>Hint - "Clinton presided over the longest period of peace-time economic
>expansion in American history, which included a balanced budget and a
>reported federal surplus (Based on Congressional accounting rules, at
>the end of his presidency Clinton reported a surplus of $559 billion)"

And yet there was a recession, at the time he was leaving.

>>Some of us saw the housing bubble bust coming, and made secure
>>investment.

>Another boondoggle for the current administration. It's well known that
>the housing bubble was primarily caused by the artificially low interest
>rates that were brought upon by the Fed in a desperate attempt to revive
>the poor economy brought about by the poor Bush policies. In reality,
>investors / business didn't take the bait where that cheap money went
>into housing, not into business expansion, as intended.

Your circular logic is amazing. The bad economy was brought about by
the housing bubble, not the other way around.
Yes Bush's overspending didn't help

> About the only way to have made money in
>the Bush years would have been to invest heavily into oil / energy.
Yes and pharmaceuticals.
>
>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The leeches are reaching for more
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c1f04e2aa1094da5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 10 2008 5:44 pm
From: "Gregory Morrow"

clams_casino wrote:

> Gregory Morrow wrote:
>
> >
> >The cost of phone calls has gone down by factors of tens, hundreds
even...
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> My phone bill is higher today than it's ever been.

Remember "adjusting for inflation"...here's a good inflation calculator:

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

--
Best
Greg

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 10 2008 5:48 pm
From: "Gregory Morrow"

clams_casino wrote:

> clams_casino wrote:
>
> > George Grapman wrote:
> >
> >> clams_casino wrote:
> >>
> >>> George Grapman wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> clams_casino wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Gregory Morrow wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The cost of phone calls has gone down by factors of tens,
> >>>>>> hundreds even...
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My phone bill is higher today than it's ever been.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> But are you making the same number of calls?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Yes, but we make very few phone calls - usually it's much cheaper /
> >>> faster (especially for reservations, etc) / easier to use email.
> >>
> >>
> >> You must have an unusual calling pattern. I make more calls than
> >> ever since I work at home but pay much less than I did 20 years ago.
> >>
> >
> > Our 1998 bills averaged $22.05 / month with 115 min LD / mo.
> >
> > Year to date 2008, they've averaged $28.56/mo for just 35 min long
> > distance / month. Our base rate is currently $9.17/month with $16.02
> > in fees / taxes using a 5 cent offpeak & 10 cent / min flat rate LD
> > calling plan. Last month, our bill was $27.68 = $9.17 base rate,
> > $1.48 for LD calls (19 minutes) and $17.03 in taxes / fees.
> >
> > Businesses have obviously made out well as the LD cost/min has dropped
> > significantly, an advantage for big users. Casual users have
> > realized a significant price hike due to all the fixed cost fees.
> > That's not including a Trac phone that we now have for convenience
> > when traveling, although it is rarely used & was not available 10
> > years ago.
> >
> > Seems like most cell phone users are probably paying $50 and up /
> > month, although they are probably using them 500 hrs / month
> > considering one in every 10 drivers seem to be driving around just to
> > talk on their phones.
>
>
>
> Just found some 1980 data - $18.88/mo.

About $53.00 in present - day dollars...

--
Best
Greg

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 10 2008 5:58 pm
From: "Gregory Morrow"

George Grapman wrote:

> clams_casino wrote:
> > George Grapman wrote:
> >
> >> clams_casino wrote:
> >>
> >>> Gregory Morrow wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> The cost of phone calls has gone down by factors of tens, hundreds
> >>>> even...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> My phone bill is higher today than it's ever been.
> >>
> >> But are you making the same number of calls?
> >
> > Yes, but we make very few phone calls - usually it's much cheaper /
> > faster (especially for reservations, etc) / easier to use email.
> You must have an unusual calling pattern. I make more calls than ever
> since I work at home but pay much less than I did 20 years ago.
>

Yep...and a few decades ago in the Ma Bell daze you didn't have all that
jazz such as voice mail, call forwarding, caller ID, etc. You were "locked
in" phone service - wise, it was a monopoly...

For landline I have Comcast Digital Voice for about $50.00/month, unlimited
local and LD calling (including Guam, Hawaii, Puerto Rico) with all the
bells and whistles. They are advertising $19.99 for new customers (for six
months). I could probably get cheaper if I ditched the landline and went
cellular, but I don't want or need a cellphone (at least at this time)...

Phone service, along with consumer electronics, is one of the great bargains
of this era...

Years ago futurists were saying that because of atomic power "electricity
will be too cheap to meter". That has not come to pass, but it almost has
with phone service, especially LD...

--
Best
Greg

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 10 2008 7:48 pm
From: George Grapman

Gregory Morrow wrote:
> clams_casino wrote:
>
>> clams_casino wrote:
>>
>>> George Grapman wrote:
>>>
>>>> clams_casino wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> George Grapman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> clams_casino wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gregory Morrow wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The cost of phone calls has gone down by factors of tens,
>>>>>>>> hundreds even...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My phone bill is higher today than it's ever been.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But are you making the same number of calls?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, but we make very few phone calls - usually it's much cheaper /
>>>>> faster (especially for reservations, etc) / easier to use email.
>>>>
>>>> You must have an unusual calling pattern. I make more calls than
>>>> ever since I work at home but pay much less than I did 20 years ago.
>>>>
>>> Our 1998 bills averaged $22.05 / month with 115 min LD / mo.
>>>
>>> Year to date 2008, they've averaged $28.56/mo for just 35 min long
>>> distance / month. Our base rate is currently $9.17/month with $16.02
>>> in fees / taxes using a 5 cent offpeak & 10 cent / min flat rate LD
>>> calling plan. Last month, our bill was $27.68 = $9.17 base rate,
>>> $1.48 for LD calls (19 minutes) and $17.03 in taxes / fees.
>>>
>>> Businesses have obviously made out well as the LD cost/min has dropped
>>> significantly, an advantage for big users. Casual users have
>>> realized a significant price hike due to all the fixed cost fees.
>>> That's not including a Trac phone that we now have for convenience
>>> when traveling, although it is rarely used & was not available 10
>>> years ago.
>>>
>>> Seems like most cell phone users are probably paying $50 and up /
>>> month, although they are probably using them 500 hrs / month
>>> considering one in every 10 drivers seem to be driving around just to
>>> talk on their phones.
>>
>>
>> Just found some 1980 data - $18.88/mo.
>
>
> About $53.00 in present - day dollars...
>
>
Which is about what I pay for unlimited service with all the add ons
like caller ID and three way.

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 10 2008 8:30 pm
From: "Gregory Morrow"

George Grapman wrote:

> Gregory Morrow wrote:
> > clams_casino wrote:
> >
> >> clams_casino wrote:
> >>
> >>> George Grapman wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> clams_casino wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> George Grapman wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> clams_casino wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Gregory Morrow wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The cost of phone calls has gone down by factors of tens,
> >>>>>>>> hundreds even...
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> My phone bill is higher today than it's ever been.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> But are you making the same number of calls?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yes, but we make very few phone calls - usually it's much cheaper /
> >>>>> faster (especially for reservations, etc) / easier to use email.
> >>>>
> >>>> You must have an unusual calling pattern. I make more calls than
> >>>> ever since I work at home but pay much less than I did 20 years ago.
> >>>>
> >>> Our 1998 bills averaged $22.05 / month with 115 min LD / mo.
> >>>
> >>> Year to date 2008, they've averaged $28.56/mo for just 35 min long
> >>> distance / month. Our base rate is currently $9.17/month with $16.02
> >>> in fees / taxes using a 5 cent offpeak & 10 cent / min flat rate LD
> >>> calling plan. Last month, our bill was $27.68 = $9.17 base rate,
> >>> $1.48 for LD calls (19 minutes) and $17.03 in taxes / fees.
> >>>
> >>> Businesses have obviously made out well as the LD cost/min has dropped
> >>> significantly, an advantage for big users. Casual users have
> >>> realized a significant price hike due to all the fixed cost fees.
> >>> That's not including a Trac phone that we now have for convenience
> >>> when traveling, although it is rarely used & was not available 10
> >>> years ago.
> >>>
> >>> Seems like most cell phone users are probably paying $50 and up /
> >>> month, although they are probably using them 500 hrs / month
> >>> considering one in every 10 drivers seem to be driving around just to
> >>> talk on their phones.
> >>
> >>
> >> Just found some 1980 data - $18.88/mo.
> >
> >
> > About $53.00 in present - day dollars...
> >
> >
> Which is about what I pay for unlimited service with all the add ons
> like caller ID and three way.

Yup, me too...and most of these features were the stuff of science fiction
or just in development c. 1980. Plus which we can choose our carriers and
our phone hardware...

--
Best
Greg

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 10 2008 8:31 pm
From: George Grapman

Gregory Morrow wrote:
> George Grapman wrote:
>
>> clams_casino wrote:
>>> George Grapman wrote:
>>>
>>>> clams_casino wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Gregory Morrow wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The cost of phone calls has gone down by factors of tens, hundreds
>>>>>> even...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> My phone bill is higher today than it's ever been.
>>>> But are you making the same number of calls?
>>> Yes, but we make very few phone calls - usually it's much cheaper /
>>> faster (especially for reservations, etc) / easier to use email.
>> You must have an unusual calling pattern. I make more calls than ever
>> since I work at home but pay much less than I did 20 years ago.
>>
>
>
> Yep...and a few decades ago in the Ma Bell daze you didn't have all that
> jazz such as voice mail, call forwarding, caller ID, etc. You were "locked
> in" phone service - wise, it was a monopoly...
>
> For landline I have Comcast Digital Voice for about $50.00/month, unlimited
> local and LD calling (including Guam, Hawaii, Puerto Rico) with all the
> bells and whistles. They are advertising $19.99 for new customers (for six
> months). I could probably get cheaper if I ditched the landline and went
> cellular, but I don't want or need a cellphone (at least at this time)...
>
> Phone service, along with consumer electronics, is one of the great bargains
> of this era...
>
> Years ago futurists were saying that because of atomic power "electricity
> will be too cheap to meter". That has not come to pass, but it almost has
> with phone service, especially LD...
>
>
There was a time when they tried to prevent you from owning your own
equipment. They eve charge a monthly fee for an extension on the same line/

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Part of frugal living may be spotting the next mess before it blind
sides you.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/82578bd2c1b6f6f9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 10 2008 5:54 pm
From: Immortalist

On Aug 10, 2:13 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
> > On Aug 10, 1:23 pm, manny <manol...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Aug 7, 3:09 pm, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
>
> >>> On Aug 5, 8:15 am, Jonathan Grobe <gr...@netins.net> wrote:
>
> >>>> On 2008-08-03, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:> Say for
> >>>> instance you owe 400,000 dollars on a house now worth 150,000
> >>>>> dollars on the distressed market...and you are late with a
> >>>>> mortgage payment as your employer has announced lay offs...and
> >>>>> your skill set is retail sales clerk etc.
>
> >>>> Frugal people (especially people whose skill set is retail sales
> >>>> clerk) don't buy $400,000 plus houses.
>
> >>> many did in this area, including illegal aliens on welfare.
>
> >>> also many in the 'management' aspect of retail sales made a little
> >>> more
> >>> money, but the skill in a bad economy goes useless even as some
> >>> requiring
> >>> much more education go useless.
>
> >>> Phil scott
>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Jonathan Grobe Books
> >>>> Browse our inventory of thousands of used books
> >>>> at:http://www.grobebooks.com-Hidequoted text -
>
> >>> - Show quoted text -
>
> >> How can a retail sales clerk afford a home of this amount?????- Hide
> >> quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > both parents work. and the income is not documented..so the banks
> > used to lend that way....Ive seen some
> > rent out half of the rooms also.... soon most folks who bought in
> > the last 7 years or so will be upside down in
> > their houses,
>
> > then if one wage earner loses their job, or the ARM adjusts, or gas
> > goes much higher...the home goes into default....thats on the first
> > mortgage....
> > these begin eating a cheaper carbohudrate diet... that prouces serious
> > health issues about 10 years later and impedes learning in the kids.
>
> Mindlessly silly.
>
> > we should at least be thankful our CEO's are doing
> > so well with their incomes though... highest ever.
>
> So is everyone else's too. Thats what inflation means, stupid.
>

A simple "thats what inflation means" would do alot better than this
stupid business, it weakens your position.

> > those holding seconds wont collect a dime... 100% loss.
> > i think the mess is about 20 times worse than the banks are currently letting on.
>
> There's always been fools like you that claim its the end of civilisation as we know it.

You might do better if you claim that the person has a "foolish
position" since to argue he is one of these fools is to weaken your
argument. Only trying to help you argue more persuasively.

An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or
argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the
author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically,
this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the
character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her
actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the
person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be
evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is
making (or presenting). ...The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind)
is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a
person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity
of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 10 2008 10:28 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Immortalist <reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Aug 10, 2:13 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
>>> On Aug 10, 1:23 pm, manny <manol...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Aug 7, 3:09 pm, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>> On Aug 5, 8:15 am, Jonathan Grobe <gr...@netins.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> On 2008-08-03, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:> Say for
>>>>>> instance you owe 400,000 dollars on a house now worth 150,000
>>>>>>> dollars on the distressed market...and you are late with a
>>>>>>> mortgage payment as your employer has announced lay offs...and
>>>>>>> your skill set is retail sales clerk etc.
>>
>>>>>> Frugal people (especially people whose skill set is retail sales
>>>>>> clerk) don't buy $400,000 plus houses.
>>
>>>>> many did in this area, including illegal aliens on welfare.
>>
>>>>> also many in the 'management' aspect of retail sales made a little
>>>>> more
>>>>> money, but the skill in a bad economy goes useless even as some
>>>>> requiring
>>>>> much more education go useless.
>>
>>>>> Phil scott
>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Jonathan Grobe Books
>>>>>> Browse our inventory of thousands of used books
>>>>>> at:http://www.grobebooks.com-Hidequoted text -
>>
>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>>>> How can a retail sales clerk afford a home of this amount?????-
>>>> Hide quoted text -
>>
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>>> both parents work. and the income is not documented..so the banks
>>> used to lend that way....Ive seen some
>>> rent out half of the rooms also.... soon most folks who bought in
>>> the last 7 years or so will be upside down in
>>> their houses,
>>
>>> then if one wage earner loses their job, or the ARM adjusts, or gas
>>> goes much higher...the home goes into default....thats on the first
>>> mortgage....
>>> these begin eating a cheaper carbohudrate diet... that prouces
>>> serious
>>> health issues about 10 years later and impedes learning in the kids.
>>
>> Mindlessly silly.
>>
>>> we should at least be thankful our CEO's are doing
>>> so well with their incomes though... highest ever.
>>
>> So is everyone else's too. Thats what inflation means, stupid.

> A simple "thats what inflation means" would do alot better
> than this stupid business, it weakens your position.

Wrong, as always.

It didnt in the election campaign either, stupid.

>>> those holding seconds wont collect a dime... 100% loss.
>>> i think the mess is about 20 times worse than the banks are
>>> currently letting on.

>> There's always been fools like you that claim its the end of civilisation as we know it.

> You might do better if you claim that the person has a "foolish position"
> since to argue he is one of these fools is to weaken your argument.

Wrong, as always.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Please help Burnham RSM-126 oil furnace won't heat hot water after
vacation
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/eef6515a0b25337e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 10 2008 6:57 pm
From: Bruce .com>

On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 16:16:53 -0400, Special Ed wrote:

> seeking a solution to a real problem
> while providing little if any critical and
> descriptive information so that people can help...

Actually, being in the business, I'd rather prefer a lot more people like
you Special Ed, who know full well that any home boiler problem is well
beyond the homeowner's expertise.

What the homeowner needs to do is call a professional as she couldn't hope
to solve the problem with help from this google group. Nobody here can help
her even get to first base on this.

The only way to solve this problem is to disassemble the boiler and clean
it out pronto! We charge 120 an hour for the estimate but you get all that
back for free once we do the work. At those prices, it doesn't pay for a
homeowner to try to save money themselves.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: FOOD RECALL: Lobster liver contaminated with potentially fatal levels
of toxins
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8a78e89408882dc7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 10 2008 7:37 pm
From: webmaster@lobsterhelp.com

just don't eat the tomalley. Eating the lobster meat is fine.

<a href=http://www.lobsterhelp.com>lobster recipes</a>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Airport parking
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a3ffd0586c7477dd?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 10 2008 8:10 pm
From: jdoe

On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 17:31:40 -0400, clams_casino
<PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:

>>
>>
>
>I've experienced that in a few hick town airports, but certainly not at
>major airports.
my you're the smug one, ewr or jfk are hardly hick town airports
__________________________________________
Never argue with an idiot.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 10 2008 8:11 pm
From: jdoe

On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 17:33:38 -0400, clams_casino
<PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:

>
>
>Yea right - driving into NYC is a smart move.
only the people who act like they're from hick towns are afraid of
driving in NYC, been doing it all my life, it's really no big deal
__________________________________________
Never argue with an idiot.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Semi-OT: Happy (late) 90th B-day, Helen Doss! (Author: "The Family
Nobody Wanted," 1954)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/acb00048b09ebd30?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 10 2008 10:25 pm
From: lenona321@yahoo.com

(She made many references to her frugal tactics in her book, for
reasons that will become obvious.)

She lives in Yuba City, California.

For those who don't know this wonderful book, it's about Helen and
Carl (a Methodist minister) who somehow managed to adopt 12 children
that nobody else wanted because they were of mixed race. This was in
the 1940s, however, so when they tried to adopt Gretchen, a German
girl who was half black, they got nowhere. (She went to a black family
eventually - pretty important in her case because she already knew, at
four, that she was different from all the kids in the German orphanage
and she kept begging for white stockings so her legs would look
white.) The other kids were mainly mixes of Asian, Latino, Anglo and
Native American. They also had one foster child (in 1947?) whom no one
would have because he was Japanese-Filipino!

The kids were all born between 1942 and 1952. The book is very
humorous and is easy enough for 9-year-olds to read alone.

Funny thing is, when I first saw the title as a kid, I didn't
understand that Helen meant that nobody else wanted to be a parent to
the children. I thought the title meant that nobody wanted to live
next to them for some mysterious reason. (That, of course, was before
I had any idea just how many noisy kids were IN the family at any
given time.)

First, in 1942, they lived in California - in Santa Ana and Cucamonga
- then they moved to Hebron, Illinois (in 1945?), then back to
California, first to Forestville (in 1948) and by the end of the book,
Boonville.

To give you an idea of how little money they were working with (and
how generous another certain minister was), here are a few figures
from the Inflation Calculator. In 1942, before they adopted their
first child, $10 was equal to $139.40 in 2007 dollars. On the same
page in the book, Carl announces that they're moving to Cucamonga and
would be living rent-free at the parsonage, with a salary of $900 per
year, which is the 2007 equivalent of $12,546.08. (Small wonder he
thought they couldn't afford a baby at that time.) Finally, in 1949,
when Helen decides to start a garden at the parsonage in Forestville
to cut the food bill for the family of nine, Carl is earning $2,800 a
year, or $23,872.03 in 2007 dollars.

"In 1951 they were radio's Christmas Family of the Year." (And got a
ton of presents and furniture as a result - but hardly anywhere to put
them.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W39QHzD67eo
(Carl & Helen, in 1954, on Groucho's show "You Bet Your Life")

In 1956, TV's Playhouse 90 had an episode about them!
http://www.tv.com/playhouse-90/the-family-nobody-wanted/episode/205081/summary.html
(includes amusing trivia near the bottom about the 1975 movie)

Lew Ayres played Carl and Nanette Fabray played Helen.

There was a 1975 TV-movie based on the book which, at the end, listed
a few of the jobs the kids now have. Shirley Jones played Helen,
James Olson played Carl, and Willie Aames played Donny.

The book was rereleased in November 2001 with a new epilogue by her
and an introduction by a professor of humanities from Wheelock
College. Before then, there were already 36 reviews in Amazon, and one
review was long and very thoughtful and another boldly pointed out
that the book is not exactly great literature - "what it lacks in
intellectual matter, it makes up for in pathos." I also remember
someone in alt.adoption saying the book was sappy and simplistic - she
said the book "embraces the usual adoption mythos." That is, since
Helen was willing to discuss racism well enough in the chapter "All
God's Children," she could have talked a good deal more about the very
real emotional and ethical issues of adoption in general (how young,
frightened, pregnant women were routinely lied to and forced into
choosing adoption, for example).

One thing I'm interested in is how today's parents and grandparents
who remember the book fondly are going to explain to young kids how
Carl and Helen could possibly call atrocious people like Mrs. Pickles
"friends" as opposed to "acquaintances." Nowadays, after all, we're
not even supposed to say hello to such people when we run into them,
and even back then, I would hope most whites wouldn't say that God
meant for blacks to be slaves. So telling kids that such people were
the majority of whites and that you had to make friends with them if
you ever hoped to convert them isn't going to fly too well. (Yes, I
remember what MP says near the end.)

From April of 2007 (Amazon reader review): "By the way, my parents
never ever talked to me about racism. We had no friends of different
races. I imagine I formed my beliefs that 'we are all brothers'
regardless of color, mostly from this book."

And from June 21, 2005: Debra Koehler "Debra Ritchey-Koehler" (San
Diego, CA) "My Uncle Don was part of this family." (I'm guessing that
he's her uncle by marriage, because if one of Donny's siblings were
her parent, chances are she'd say so.)

For those who haven't gotten their hands on the new edition......

SPOILERS:

If memory serves - Donny is now a computer wizard, as are Teddy and
Diane, Timmy is in real estate, Alex joined the Air Force and now
lives in South Korea with his wife, Susie and Dorothy are artists,
Laura (now spelled Lora) is a beautician, Rita cares for old people,
Elaine is a housewife, and Richard was a farmer before he died of
cancer. Gregory, I'm sorry to say, died tragically after a mugging.
(Those last two apparently died before the mid-1990s, as you'll see
below.) Helen's update in the book is not much longer than what I just
wrote.

Also, Teddy and Timmy were in Vietnam - and returned.

From what I understand, despite conflicting reports of dates, Carl and
Helen divorced in 1964 (sadly, it's not too surprising, when you read
the book) and he died of cancer in 1994. Helen said that he lived to
see most of his grandchildren (there are now 37). She has remarried.
Most of the adoptees are now grandparents themselves!

Here's an interesting, shall we say, review of the book from a
different perspective:

http://tradreviews2.blogspot.com/2007/03/family-nobody-wanted.html

"The Rad Trad Review"
"Engaging the culture with an examination of movies and books from a
Traditional Catholic Perspective"

"Written from the wife of a protestant minister's perspective, there
is nothing about Catholicism in the book. However, the open hearts and
generosity of the minister and his wife, in adopting 12 children from
many different ethnic groups, gives a very good example regardless of
religion, and is well worth the read. Excellence: 2 stars"

(Let's just say the reviewer has no sympathy for Carl and even makes
mean remarks about his choosing to become a Methodist minister.)

And here's another religious review with a very different perspective
(she sympathizes with Carl):
http://bookfest2006.blogspot.com/2006/12/family-nobody-wanted-by-helen-doss.html

More info:

http://www.haloscan.com/comments/mamacita/114523454446904015/

"I did verify that they did divorce- it apparently was in 1964. Carl
remarried in 1966 to Maxine Mapes. He and Maxine lived in Redlands, CA
until his death in 1994. At the time of his death Don, Diane, Dorothy,
Elaine, Rita, Tim, Ted, Susan, Laura & Alex were still living. Maxine
has since passed away as well.

"Incidentally, Carl left his ministry and had a career in real estate.
Later he retired from real estate to do sculpturing."
Lori | 08.17.07 - 12:01 pm | #

Gravatar "Hello: I am the wife of Don Doss the first child adopted by
the Doss's in the book The Family Nobody Wanted. Yes, Carl and Helen
divorced in 1964. Helen is still alive and is married to someone named
Roger Reed."
Sharon | 09.11.07 - 7:05 pm | #

http://unjobs.org/authors/helen-doss
(bits and pieces)

http://www.philanthropyjournal.org/archive/80837
(includes a color photo from 2005 - it's about Helen's anti-cancer
charity work)

http://www.leukemia-lymphoma.org/all_page?item_id=281316
(photo from 2004 - the article is mainly about her stepdaughter)

http://members.aol.com/wmlgage/ll/AdoptiveParents_C-H.html
(scroll halfway down to see three covers for "The Family Nobody
Wanted" - two are very old color editions!)

http://www.uoregon.edu/~adoption/topics/familynobodywanted.htm
(includes B&W photo from the 1951 LIFE Magazine)

You can see photos of ALL the kids here, with the 1949 Reader's
Digest(?) article by Helen:

http://www.uoregon.edu/~adoption/archive/DossOIF.htm

I was browsing in a huge used-books store in San Francisco's
Tenderloin district some years ago and found a copy of Helen's short
hardcover "The Really Real Family" which is full of photos and is
mainly about Laura's and Elaine's rivalry.

*I* have some questions:

What does Helen think of the current controversies surrounding putting
black children in white homes when there aren't enough black parents
looking to adopt?

Now that healthy, happy babies/toddlers available for adoption are
probably the exception rather than the norm, regardless of color, IS
there such a thing nowadays in the U.S. as a healthy child under 5
whom no one WANTS to adopt? If so, what are the most common reasons
for that? (Assuming the child does not have truly terrifying
behavioral problems.)

Why did there seem to be so few older children available for adoption
in the 1940s, when, as Helen made clear in the first chapter, there
were all sorts of reasons then, as now, for children to be needing
foster and adoptive homes? Even then, healthy white babies weren't
always easy to get.

WRITINGS:

A brother the size of me - 1957

The Family Nobody Wanted: A Three-act Comedy Based Upon the Book by
Christopher Sergel, Helen Grigsby Doss - 1957

If You Adopt a Child by Carl M. Doss, Helen Grigsby Doss - 1957

All the children of the world - 1958

Friends Around the World by Helen Doss, illustrated by Audrie L
Knapp - 1959

The really real family - 1959

Jonah - 1964

King David Illustrated by Norman Kohn. 1967
"Helen Doss' powerful story of this biblical personality presents King
David as a man who sometimes ruled his kingdom and often was himself
ruled by his emotions."

Where can I find God? - 1968

Young Reader's Book of Bible Stories - 1970

All the better to bite with 1976

Your Skin Holds You in 1978

The U. S. Air Force: From Balloons to Spaceships 1981

Language Skills and Use - 1986

-------

Lenona.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Get Your $100 Gas Voucher for Free
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/866b907eb0601f23?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 10 2008 11:34 pm
From: rvz1fqp4

I just discovered this new site that's giving away a $100 gas voucher,
for free!

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This site delivers on its promise too, and you can receive your gas
voucher for the gas station of your choice.

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1. You visit www.ebusinesswiz.com/freegascard
2. You complete one of their participating offers (I completed mine
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Don't miss out on this offer. There's no telling when they'll take it
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Visit www.ebusinesswiz.com/freegascard and get your free $100 gas
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