Frugal Living: 25 new messages in 8 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Shoe repair & Shoe Goo?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/51bfda567813c9fd?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 9:38 am
From: "john hamilton"

"Al Bundy" <MSfortune@mcpmail.com> wrote in message
news:9f2970d3-1539-4f68-9fef-0eb10d36fea5@v57g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> lenona...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> I have a pair of suede oxfords (Soft Spot All Day Comfort). One has a
>> one-inch split in it, starting at the top edge of the rubber sole, at
>> the heel. Does anyone know how much Shoe Goo costs compared to taking
>> it to be repaired? Could I use super-glue just as effectively?
>> Anything else I should know?
>>
>> Lenona.

here in the u.k. you can buy stick on heels and soles, usually sold in
woolworths stores.

they use a glue that is labelled 'polyurathane' and its really tough and
really sticky. (a tube is about £2 ). you can build it up in layers and
make anything stick to anything and its waterproof. for shoes i wouldn't
bother with any other type of glue.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Exploding iPods!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/20415c036fa62cee?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 9:50 am
From: "weedhopper"

<ultimauw@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:23c9f500-6a60-4ab1-8dca-97dc52b3d54f@v26g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> http://consumerist.com/5039012/apple-agrees-to-replace-exploding-first+gen-ipods-after-japan-demands-action
>
> what should have been a no-brainer, Apple today agreed to replace any
> iPod Nanos that unexpectedly explode. The announcement came as a
> response to the Japanese government, which yesterday asked the
> computer-maker to "take some measures" to warn consumers of the
> potential danger of their little pocket rockets. Apple blames a single
> bad battery supplier for the spontaneous fireworks.
>
> Apple said the flaw affected first-generation Nanos, sold between
> September 2005 and December 2006, in very rare instances. The
> company's statement added that "There have been no reports of serious
> injuries or property damage, and no reports of incidents for any other
> iPod Nano model."<snip>

Apple has really turned to shit lately. Do you notice; it never seems to be
their fault. But doesn't QC ultimately fall on the company whose name is on
the product?

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 11:45 am
From: Thundercleets

On Aug 20, 12:50 pm, "weedhopper" <Whop...@comcast.net> wrote:
> <ultim...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:23c9f500-6a60-4ab1-8dca-97dc52b3d54f@v26g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
>
> >http://consumerist.com/5039012/apple-agrees-to-replace-exploding-firs...
>
> > what should have been a no-brainer, Apple today agreed to replace any
> > iPod Nanos that unexpectedly explode. The announcement came as a
> > response to the Japanese government, which yesterday asked the
> > computer-maker to "take some measures" to warn consumers of the
> > potential danger of their little pocket rockets. Apple blames a single
> > bad battery supplier for the spontaneous fireworks.
>
> > Apple said the flaw affected first-generation Nanos, sold between
> > September 2005 and December 2006, in very rare instances. The
> > company's statement added that "There have been no reports of serious
> > injuries or property damage, and no reports of incidents for any other
> > iPod Nano model."<snip>
>
> Apple has really turned to shit lately. Do you notice; it never seems to be
> their fault. But doesn't QC ultimately fall on the company whose name is on
> the product?

Apple quality has suffered since they like those in x86 micro-land
have switched production abroad mainly over to China.
They are still better on average then the x86 micro boxen.
CR just rated them no. 1 again in consumer satisfaction overall I
believe.

I don't think I would mind at least a 10% premium for a quality
domestically produced computer.

I wonder if it will get like Fender where the value of a given guitar
is greatly affected by where it was manufactured?
From what I understand Chinese Fenders are the lowest and of course
American Fenders are at the top.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 12:35 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Thundercleets <thundercleets@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Aug 20, 12:50 pm, "weedhopper" <Whop...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> <ultim...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:23c9f500-6a60-4ab1-8dca-97dc52b3d54f@v26g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> http://consumerist.com/5039012/apple-agrees-to-replace-exploding-firs...
>>
>>> what should have been a no-brainer, Apple today agreed to replace
>>> any iPod Nanos that unexpectedly explode. The announcement came as a
>>> response to the Japanese government, which yesterday asked the
>>> computer-maker to "take some measures" to warn consumers of the
>>> potential danger of their little pocket rockets. Apple blames a
>>> single bad battery supplier for the spontaneous fireworks.
>>
>>> Apple said the flaw affected first-generation Nanos, sold between
>>> September 2005 and December 2006, in very rare instances. The
>>> company's statement added that "There have been no reports of
>>> serious injuries or property damage, and no reports of incidents
>>> for any other iPod Nano model."<snip>
>>
>> Apple has really turned to shit lately. Do you notice; it never
>> seems to be their fault. But doesn't QC ultimately fall on the
>> company whose name is on the product?
>
> Apple quality has suffered since they like those in x86 micro-land
> have switched production abroad mainly over to China.
> They are still better on average then the x86 micro boxen.
> CR just rated them no. 1 again in consumer satisfaction overall I
> believe.

> I don't think I would mind at least a 10% premium for a quality
> domestically produced computer.

Trouble is that its a lot more than a 10% premium.

> I wonder if it will get like Fender where the value of a given
> guitar is greatly affected by where it was manufactured?

Nope, you watch.

> From what I understand Chinese Fenders are the lowest
> and of course American Fenders are at the top.

Wont happen with ipods, essentially because they age so quickly as technology moves on.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 12:55 pm
From: Jesse Dorland

On Aug 20, 2:45 pm, Thundercleets <thundercle...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[stuff deleted for brevity]

> Apple quality has suffered since they like those in x86 micro-land
> have switched production abroad mainly over to China.
> They are still better on average then the x86 micro boxen.
> CR just rated them no. 1 again in consumer satisfaction overall I
> believe.

I am sorry, but I have to disagree with you on this. Yes PPC was a
nice hardware, but there was a reason why it didn't work out for
Apple. Speed limits, and Heat issue were to primiary reason not
counting others. PCC is a nice CPU for gaming, and servers because you
expect these thing to get hot.

Now, as for x86 being less then perfect? Well, it's not x86 hardware
is one the best in the world -- yes it has its fault. I'll give you a
nice example. Right one at my home I have 486 sx 33mhz machine. I
bought this bad boy in 1993 -- running windows 3.1, dos 6.0 (now
6.22), and millions of games. It is still working -- and I can even
connect to my router. The whole thing was made in china.

> I don't think I would mind at least a 10% premium for a quality
> domestically produced computer.

Apple's operating system OSX is a nice and very secure, non-the-less
apple pricing are lot to be desire. I am one of few in my area who can
afford this bab boy, and that's about it --- mind you I am using a
cheap mac-mini $1000 + $500 accesseries. Other's in my neighborhood
can't even afford this. We are talking about middle-class here.

> I wonder if it will get like Fender where the value of a given guitar
> is greatly affected by where it was manufactured?
> From what I understand Chinese Fenders are the lowest and of course
> American Fenders are at the top.

Don't fool youself, there is a reason manufacturing has move to near
east. There is chane that some of it will come back -- assuming price
of oil go somewhere around $5 per gallon. Which would when Cannibal
Hussian Obama take over, I hope our beloved God fearing Bush would
stop this election and change the law so he can stay for 3rd term.

Long live Republican!!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Boston Globe: "Frugally Wed: Couples find many ways to pare costs for
the big day"
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/664004c52ba5cadb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 9:52 am
From: lenona321@yahoo.com

Enjoy!

http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/weddings/articles/2008/08/19/frugally_wed/?p1=Well_MostPop_Emailed1

Lenona.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Homemade Cleaner?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8ae05b3b6d060438?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 10:10 am
From: Vic Smith

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 00:23:35 -0600, hchickpea@hotmail.com wrote:

>
>Where the commercial cleaners come into their own are the grease
>cutters. Butyl degreasers are powerful, but can really wack out the
>nerves in your hands if you don't use gloves. There are other
>degreasers that clean nearly as well. Most all degreasers do not play
>well with plastic, and work even more powerfully when warm.
>
For home use a container of Goop or other automotive hand cleaner
comes in handy. Can pick it up cheap if you keep your eyes open.
Cuts any grease, and isn't supposed to hurt skin.
Got some roof sealer - tar- on my hands a week ago and it even took
that off. Downside is some people don't like the smell, but that can
be quickly gotten rid of with soap.

--Vic

== 2 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 11:29 am
From: hchickpea@hotmail.com

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 14:54:49 +0000, Dee <d@d.d> wrote:

>Also, if you have one of those home carpet steam-cleaner machines,
>I've found that, in lieu of the pricey detergent they sell in a
>bottle, I can use 1/2 TBSP of unscented Tide (added to the 1 gallon
>tank of boiling water) and it does a great job on the carpet.

Good thought. The powdered versions of detergents are a little less
likely to leave a film, but Tide is a commonly used detergent for
general cleaning. I've seen it used on concrete floors.

FWIW, about three times out of four, I use just plain water in my
"steam" cleaner. It limits the residue build-up, and any soap left
over from the last cleaning does double duty.

== 3 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 11:03 am
From: ediefaber@yahoo.com (elise d faber)

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 12:12:33 +0000, Dee <d@d.d> wrote:

>Pringles CheezUms <nowhere@nohow.com> wrote in
>news:9p4na49p7traq7tkfv1a49u6rsla34an0e@4ax.com:
>
>> Is there a homemade cleaner that is as effective as (but cheaper
>> than) a commercial general-purpose cleaner?
>>
>> If not, what is the most effective commercial cleaner? We've
>> always used 409 and have been reasonably happy with it, but if
>> there's something more effective I'm open to switching. That could
>> include something you could get at a warehouse or cleaning supply
>> house too. I know Sams has commercial cleaners but have never
>> tried them. Can anybody get heavy-duty professional stuff? Anybody
>> in the business? What do you use?
>>
>> Thanks for the help!
>
>For most general cleaning tasks I use Dr. Bronner's liquid soap.
>It's very concentrated so a bottle lasts a long time. I use about
>1/2 tsp. to 20 oz. of water (that's the size of my spray bottle).
>
>Another cleaner I use occasionally is equal parts alcohol and water.
>It works well on glass, windows, and countertops. Don't use it on
>painted surfaces, though, as it will remove latex paint.
>
>For my kitchen vinyl floor, I use a mixture of water, ammonia, and
>vinegar.
>
>The only area that I have trouble with is the stovetop. I scrub it
>with Bon Ami but the cooked-on grease is pretty tenacious. Anyone
>have any suggestions for that?
>
>Dee

i use washing soda for degreasing. make a paste and let it sit for a
few minutes. then use a nylon scrubbee thing. cheap, and safe.

elise

== 4 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 11:22 am
From: clams_casino

Vic Smith wrote:

>On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 00:23:35 -0600, hchickpea@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>Where the commercial cleaners come into their own are the grease
>>cutters. Butyl degreasers are powerful, but can really wack out the
>>nerves in your hands if you don't use gloves. There are other
>>degreasers that clean nearly as well. Most all degreasers do not play
>>well with plastic, and work even more powerfully when warm.
>>
>>
>>
>For home use a container of Goop or other automotive hand cleaner
>comes in handy. Can pick it up cheap if you keep your eyes open.
>Cuts any grease, and isn't supposed to hurt skin.
>
>

If it contains orange oil (can be obvious by its odor), it will be
damaging to the skin.

Any degreaser will damage skin by degreasing (dissolving the fatty
tissues) in one's skin. A small amount will likely not be noticeable,
but not good long term. Best practice is to apply wearing protective
gloves, keeping in mind it had adversely affect the gloves. .

>Got some roof sealer - tar- on my hands a week ago and it even took
>that off. Downside is some people don't like the smell, but that can
>be quickly gotten rid of with soap.
>
>--Vic
>
>

Orange oil products are widely used in industrial applications to clean
tar, etc from floors. Excellent degreaser, tar remover - just be aware
it doesn't know the difference between the tar, grease & the fatty
tissues in your skin..

== 5 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 11:58 am
From: Vic Smith

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 14:22:09 -0400, clams_casino
<PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:

>>>
>>For home use a container of Goop or other automotive hand cleaner
>>comes in handy. Can pick it up cheap if you keep your eyes open.
>>Cuts any grease, and isn't supposed to hurt skin.
>>
>
>If it contains orange oil (can be obvious by its odor), it will be
>damaging to the skin.
>
More readily detected by its obvious orange color, or the big print on
the container saying "Orange Hand Cleaner" or "Hand Cleaner with
Orange Oil" or "Orange Hand Cleaner with Orange Oil and Pumice."
But plain white Goop is better at cutting grease in my experience.

>Any degreaser will damage skin by degreasing (dissolving the fatty
>tissues) in one's skin. A small amount will likely not be noticeable,
>but not good long term. Best practice is to apply wearing protective
>gloves, keeping in mind it had adversely affect the gloves. .
>
It's "hand cleaner" so if you're cleaning your hands don't wear
gloves. Won't work. Just get the outside of the gloves real clean
and the inside real dirty.
If you're cleaning a pot with it, you can wear gloves or not.
It also works on grease/oil stain on clothing when rubbed into the
stain before the wash. But it will kill suds, so keep that in mind.
>
>>Got some roof sealer - tar- on my hands a week ago and it even took
>>that off. Downside is some people don't like the smell, but that can
>>be quickly gotten rid of with soap.
>
>Orange oil products are widely used in industrial applications to clean
>tar, etc from floors. Excellent degreaser, tar remover - just be aware
>it doesn't know the difference between the tar, grease & the fatty
>tissues in your skin..

I don't use the orange stuff, and white Goop works just as well.
Been using it for years and it's never hurt my hands.
Speaking only for *my* hands, but there are probably tens of thousands
of mechanics using it daily.
People have different skin sensitivities, so it's common sense to pay
attention to that, but "hand cleaner" has NEVER had bad effects on
my hands.
Navy alkaline soap powder TYPE II, or diesel oil with sugar scrubbed
with a wire brush didn't have much bad effect on my hands either, but
they hurt when hitting the nicks.
Hand cleaner is much better.
You make it sound like common hand clean used by tens
of thousands of mechanics will turn you hands into bones. Get real.

--Vic

== 6 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 12:37 pm
From: clams_casino

Vic Smith wrote:

>On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 14:22:09 -0400, clams_casino
><PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>>For home use a container of Goop or other automotive hand cleaner
>>>comes in handy. Can pick it up cheap if you keep your eyes open.
>>>Cuts any grease, and isn't supposed to hurt skin.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>If it contains orange oil (can be obvious by its odor), it will be
>>damaging to the skin.
>>
>>
>>
>More readily detected by its obvious orange color, or the big print on
>the container saying "Orange Hand Cleaner" or "Hand Cleaner with
>Orange Oil" or "Orange Hand Cleaner with Orange Oil and Pumice."
>But plain white Goop is better at cutting grease in my experience.
>
>
>
>>Any degreaser will damage skin by degreasing (dissolving the fatty
>>tissues) in one's skin. A small amount will likely not be noticeable,
>>but not good long term. Best practice is to apply wearing protective
>>gloves, keeping in mind it had adversely affect the gloves. .
>>
>>
>>
>It's "hand cleaner" so if you're cleaning your hands don't wear
>gloves. Won't work. Just get the outside of the gloves real clean
>and the inside real dirty.
>
>

Interesting that they would use orange oil in a hand cleaner considering
the MSDS in industrial applications clearly states to take precautions
with skin contact.

"Skin Contact: - In case of contact, immediately flush skin with plenty
of water. Cover the irritated skin with an emollient. Remove
contaminated clothing and shoes. Wash clothing before reuse. Thoroughly
clean shoes before reuse. Get
medical attention."

Guess small amounts or if formulated perhaps very diluted in a hand
cleaner is overlooked or doesn't fall under the guidelines as being a
potential hazard.

== 7 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 12:57 pm
From: Vic Smith

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 15:37:21 -0400, clams_casino
<PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:

>
>Guess small amounts or if formulated perhaps very diluted in a hand
>cleaner is overlooked or doesn't fall under the guidelines as being a
>potential hazard.

I think the orange stuff is mostly a marketing gimmick to target those
who don't like the smell of "normal" Goop-like hand cleaner.
But I'm not a chemist or epidemiologist, just a guy who knows what
works to clean his hands.

--Vic.

== 8 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 1:13 pm
From: clams_casino

Vic Smith wrote:

>On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 15:37:21 -0400, clams_casino
><PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>Guess small amounts or if formulated perhaps very diluted in a hand
>>cleaner is overlooked or doesn't fall under the guidelines as being a
>>potential hazard.
>>
>>
>
>I think the orange stuff is mostly a marketing gimmick to target those
>who don't like the smell of "normal" Goop-like hand cleaner.
>But I'm not a chemist or epidemiologist, just a guy who knows what
>works to clean his hands.
>
>--Vic.
>
>
>
>

Orange oil is a very effective cleaner. It's probably no more hazardous
than turpentine. Used occasionally & cleaned / washed off quickly will
probably not be a problem for most.. The OP appeared to be female. We
used 5-10% solutions of orange oil to clean lab benches & equipment
where some technicians had adverse skin reactions (redness /
irritation), others didn't seem to be as affected (woman more so than
the men). I'm sure it's a time / concentration issue, but pouring
Goo Gone onto a paper towel & scrubbing a range top may be more exposure
than a typical woman might want on her hands.

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==============================================================================

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: The DSL 12-Month Commitment
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/bb1b6c0797411fac?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 10:29 am
From: "catalpa"

"Jack" <Windswept@Home> wrote in message
news:48ac39a8.14164593@news-60.giganews.com...
> There are lots of complaints about the the two DSL providers available
> here: Verizon and NetZero. The complaints focus around delayed
> service ready dates, disconnects which last up to 14 days, and
> piss-poor support.
>
> If they offered month-to-month plans, it wouldn't be so bad. You
> could merely cancel. But with the 12-month commitment which requires
> an early termination penalty as well as full pmt. for the 12 months,
> there is no incentive for good support.
>
> What a racket! You pay for a shoddy product and are stuck with it!
>
> Guess I'll always be a low-tech dial-up guy.

Verizon gives you the modem for free, hence the 12 month contract.

Verizon gives you 30 days to cancel the service. If you can't figure out in
the first 2 weeks if you want to keep DSL then it is your problem.

I've been using Verizon DSL for over 5 years and would not even consider
going back to dialup. I will be switching to FIOS when it becomes available
in my area.

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 10:42 am
From: Windswept@Home (Jack)

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 17:29:59 GMT, "catalpa" <catalpa@entertab.org>
wrote:

>
>"Jack" <Windswept@Home> wrote in message
>news:48ac39a8.14164593@news-60.giganews.com...
>> There are lots of complaints about the the two DSL providers available
>> here: Verizon and NetZero. The complaints focus around delayed
>> service ready dates, disconnects which last up to 14 days, and
>> piss-poor support.
>>
>> If they offered month-to-month plans, it wouldn't be so bad. You
>> could merely cancel. But with the 12-month commitment which requires
>> an early termination penalty as well as full pmt. for the 12 months,
>> there is no incentive for good support.
>>
>> What a racket! You pay for a shoddy product and are stuck with it!
>>
>> Guess I'll always be a low-tech dial-up guy.
>
>Verizon gives you the modem for free, hence the 12 month contract.

Is that the excuse? They could write a month-to-month deal whereby
you return the modem if you terminate before 12 months or else you pay
for the modem.

>Verizon gives you 30 days to cancel the service. If you can't figure out in
>the first 2 weeks if you want to keep DSL then it is your problem.

Has nothing to do with "figuring it out." I have read horror tales
whereby problems start after 30 days, e.g., disconnects, speeds as
slow as dial-up, and unreliable support to address those issues.

>I've been using Verizon DSL for over 5 years and would not even consider
>going back to dialup. I will be switching to FIOS when it becomes available
>in my area.

Maybe you're one of the few lucky ones.

Most of the comments and opinions have been negative.

Maybe it's because satisfied customers are not likely to offer
opinions, I don't know?????

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 11:15 am
From: George Grapman

catalpa wrote:
> "Jack" <Windswept@Home> wrote in message
> news:48ac39a8.14164593@news-60.giganews.com...
>> There are lots of complaints about the the two DSL providers available
>> here: Verizon and NetZero. The complaints focus around delayed
>> service ready dates, disconnects which last up to 14 days, and
>> piss-poor support.
>>
>> If they offered month-to-month plans, it wouldn't be so bad. You
>> could merely cancel. But with the 12-month commitment which requires
>> an early termination penalty as well as full pmt. for the 12 months,
>> there is no incentive for good support.
>>
>> What a racket! You pay for a shoddy product and are stuck with it!
>>
>> Guess I'll always be a low-tech dial-up guy.
>
> Verizon gives you the modem for free, hence the 12 month contract.
>
> Verizon gives you 30 days to cancel the service. If you can't figure out in
> the first 2 weeks if you want to keep DSL then it is your problem.
>
> I've been using Verizon DSL for over 5 years and would not even consider
> going back to dialup. I will be switching to FIOS when it becomes available
> in my area.

Last year my modem died and while waiting for a replacement I had
to back to dial up. I had forgotten how slow it was.

As a side note, after support told me how to do the exchange I
asked if there was a way to connect in the interim. They apologized and
said there was no way. After hanging up I remembered that this was the
same computer as when I had dial up and about one minute of rearranging
the phone connections I was back in business.
>
>

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 11:21 am
From: George

Jack wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 17:29:59 GMT, "catalpa" <catalpa@entertab.org>
> wrote:
>
>> "Jack" <Windswept@Home> wrote in message
>> news:48ac39a8.14164593@news-60.giganews.com...
>>> There are lots of complaints about the the two DSL providers available
>>> here: Verizon and NetZero. The complaints focus around delayed
>>> service ready dates, disconnects which last up to 14 days, and
>>> piss-poor support.
>>>
>>> If they offered month-to-month plans, it wouldn't be so bad. You
>>> could merely cancel. But with the 12-month commitment which requires
>>> an early termination penalty as well as full pmt. for the 12 months,
>>> there is no incentive for good support.
>>>
>>> What a racket! You pay for a shoddy product and are stuck with it!
>>>
>>> Guess I'll always be a low-tech dial-up guy.
>> Verizon gives you the modem for free, hence the 12 month contract.
>
> Is that the excuse? They could write a month-to-month deal whereby
> you return the modem if you terminate before 12 months or else you pay
> for the modem.
>
>> Verizon gives you 30 days to cancel the service. If you can't figure out in
>> the first 2 weeks if you want to keep DSL then it is your problem.
>
> Has nothing to do with "figuring it out." I have read horror tales
> whereby problems start after 30 days, e.g., disconnects, speeds as
> slow as dial-up, and unreliable support to address those issues.
>
>> I've been using Verizon DSL for over 5 years and would not even consider
>> going back to dialup. I will be switching to FIOS when it becomes available
>> in my area.
>
> Maybe you're one of the few lucky ones.
>
> Most of the comments and opinions have been negative.
>
> Maybe it's because satisfied customers are not likely to offer
> opinions, I don't know?????

My guess would be that. I know lots of folks who have DSL without any
issues.

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 11:46 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Jack <Windswept@Home> wrote:

> There are lots of complaints about the the two DSL providers
> available here: Verizon and NetZero. The complaints focus
> around delayed service ready dates, disconnects which last
> up to 14 days, and piss-poor support.

> If they offered month-to-month plans, it wouldn't be so bad.
> You could merely cancel. But with the 12-month commitment
> which requires an early termination penalty as well as full pmt.
> for the 12 months, there is no incentive for good support.

> What a racket! You pay for a shoddy product and are stuck with it!

No you arent. If they cant deliver what you paid for reliably, you
are welcome to leave without paying the early termination penalty.

And they know it, just mention the small claims court if they are stupid enough to try it.

> Guess I'll always be a low-tech dial-up guy.

More fool you.

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 11:51 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Jack <Windswept@Home> wrote
> catalpa <catalpa@entertab.org> wrote
>> Jack <Windswept@Home> wrote

>>> There are lots of complaints about the the two DSL providers
>>> available here: Verizon and NetZero. The complaints focus around
>>> delayed service ready dates, disconnects which last up to 14 days,
>>> and piss-poor support.

>>> If they offered month-to-month plans, it wouldn't be so bad. You
>>> could merely cancel. But with the 12-month commitment which
>>> requires an early termination penalty as well as full pmt. for the
>>> 12 months, there is no incentive for good support.

>>> What a racket! You pay for a shoddy product and are stuck with it!

>>> Guess I'll always be a low-tech dial-up guy.

>> Verizon gives you the modem for free, hence the 12 month contract.

> Is that the excuse?

Its not an excuse.

> They could write a month-to-month deal whereby you
> return the modem if you terminate before 12 months

They dont want a modem you have been molesting.

> or else you pay for the modem.

That what the ETP is.

>> Verizon gives you 30 days to cancel the service. If you can't figure out
>> in the first 2 weeks if you want to keep DSL then it is your problem.

> Has nothing to do with "figuring it out." I have read horror tales
> whereby problems start after 30 days, e.g., disconnects, speeds
> as slow as dial-up, and unreliable support to address those issues.

The trouble with 'reading' stuff like that is that you cant get
a clear idea about how many actually get a result like that.

>> I've been using Verizon DSL for over 5 years and would
>> not even consider going back to dialup. I will be switching
>> to FIOS when it becomes available in my area.

> Maybe you're one of the few lucky ones.

Unlikely. If they were as bad as you claim, you'd have seen class action suits by now.

> Most of the comments and opinions have been negative.

That the nature of those things, those that are getting a decent result dont bother to comment.

> Maybe it's because satisfied customers are not likely to offer opinions,

Yep.

> I don't know?????

It should be obvious with anything you have got yourself, compare the result you get with the comments you can find.

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 1:11 pm
From: r@back.road

Jack wrote:
> There are lots of complaints about the the two DSL providers available
> here: Verizon and NetZero. The complaints focus around delayed
> service ready dates, disconnects which last up to 14 days, and
> piss-poor support.
>
> If they offered month-to-month plans, it wouldn't be so bad. You
> could merely cancel. But with the 12-month commitment which requires
> an early termination penalty as well as full pmt. for the 12 months,
> there is no incentive for good support.
>
> What a racket! You pay for a shoddy product and are stuck with it!
>
> Guess I'll always be a low-tech dial-up guy.
It's a way to lock in customers in bad deals with sometimes bad or
indifferent service. Instead of having the ability to drop them and find
a compnay with quality customer support and service you are tied to
shoddy business until the 2 year agreement terminates. It is immoral it
is illegal but Congress and Government don't observe Law or Citizens'
rights.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Frugal hi speed internet?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/47603876a73acdc1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 11:26 am
From: "JR Weiss"

<nonsense@mynonsense.net> wrote:
>
> Thanks, that's exactly what I am looking for! Anyone know if this 768
> kpbs is good enough for VOIP with webcam?

VOIP (e.g., Skype) is usable even at dial-up speeds, so the voice part will not
be a problem. You'll likely get very low frame rates on a web cam, especially
if it is a high-resolution camera.

For a quick analysis, a QVGA camera (320x240 pixels) uses 75 KiloBytes (KB) or
600 Kilobits (Kb) per frame for 8-bit color. Compression could easily reduce
that by 2/3, for 200 Kb per frame. That would allow about 3 frames per second.
Monochrome could give a significantly higher frame rate.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Everbody's Doin' It With Vera "Mirelle" Perks!!! (Had A Piece Lately?)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f2c55114e5d590f0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 12:50 pm
From: mirellemoo@gmail.com

ANNOUNCING.....!!!

Classes open in the art of fellatio, taught by world renowned
fellatrix Vera "Mirelle" Perks of Silverton, BC - that's Me!

I'm 54 years young last April, and I'm hot, hot, HOT!!!
(See My space at http://moaningmirelle.blogspot.com/)

"Great head has more than just penis action to it.
There are the balls to suck and roll around with the tongue....
And go back to the penis slowly tickling the head
ever so playfully....
And motions of up and down the penis with the tongue
ever so playfully.....
It takes having them tell the woman they are about to come and have
the woman pull gently on his balls as a man can not come when his
balls are descended for when a man has an orgasm his balls go up. Also
stop moving while doing this gentle pulling down of the balls."
- Mirelle, 17 Jan 2007 22:00:00
Message-ID: <1169099999.979954.5...@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>

WANTED! Volunteers (male only) to serve in class as models
for My artistry. Sign up at the Church of the Revolving Vulva,
or call Me at 250-358-2727. If I'm not available, you can
leave a message with Shaulik, My Jew hubby and personal dhimmi.

I've LOTS of energy! It's one of the reasons (but only one)
my Jew stepson and his Jewish Princess wife Naomi moved
with their baby RBP to KangarooLand. (Hubby Shaulik and
me paid for Naomi's education because Naomi's cheap JEW
father wouldn't.
(See: ME & SAUL, CHEAP JEW FATHERS, & SNOWBOARDERS
http://moaningmirelle.blogspot.com/2008/04/me-saul-jewish-princesss-cheap-jewish.html)

My other Jew stepson and his wife Michelle avoid me,
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on you all!

Come up, see me sometime. Plenty of room at:
Chez Mirelle
607 Turner St
Silverton, BC V0GB20
250.358.2727

NO FAGS. Faggots are disgusting and unnatural.
See My space at http://moaningmirelle.blogspot.com/

Fuck zioniSStSS!!!
Fuck iSSrael!!!
See ya in class!!!

4APieceMirelle
I am a BIG FAN of Osama bin Laden
(Had A Piece Lately?)

PS If you need a private investigator, call Me. I've
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For details on my Jew brother-in-law's abdducttion,
see My site at http://moaningmirelle.blogspot.com.)

So, I'm available for ALL your Private Investigation needs.

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== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 12:57 pm
From: kangarooistan

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http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/
httpd://english.aljazeera.net/your_views/

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