Frugal Living: 25 new messages in 9 topics

Wednesday, August 20, 2008

25 new messages in 9 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Homemade Cleaner?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8ae05b3b6d060438?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 1:13 pm
From: clams_casino

Vic Smith wrote:

>On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 15:37:21 -0400, clams_casino
><PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>Guess small amounts or if formulated perhaps very diluted in a hand
>>cleaner is overlooked or doesn't fall under the guidelines as being a
>>potential hazard.
>>
>>
>
>I think the orange stuff is mostly a marketing gimmick to target those
>who don't like the smell of "normal" Goop-like hand cleaner.
>But I'm not a chemist or epidemiologist, just a guy who knows what
>works to clean his hands.
>
>--Vic.
>
>
>
>

Orange oil is a very effective cleaner. It's probably no more hazardous
than turpentine. Used occasionally & cleaned / washed off quickly will
probably not be a problem for most.. The OP appeared to be female. We
used 5-10% solutions of orange oil to clean lab benches & equipment
where some technicians had adverse skin reactions (redness /
irritation), others didn't seem to be as affected (woman more so than
the men). I'm sure it's a time / concentration issue, but pouring
Goo Gone onto a paper towel & scrubbing a range top may be more exposure
than a typical woman might want on her hands.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 1:39 pm
From: Jeff

Vic Smith wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 15:37:21 -0400, clams_casino
> <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Guess small amounts or if formulated perhaps very diluted in a hand
>> cleaner is overlooked or doesn't fall under the guidelines as being a
>> potential hazard.
>
> I think the orange stuff is mostly a marketing gimmick to target those
> who don't like the smell of "normal" Goop-like hand cleaner.
> But I'm not a chemist or epidemiologist, just a guy who knows what
> works to clean his hands.

I would agree.

However, the raw hand cleaner is definitely rough on the skin. No
doubt why almost all brands contain lanolin. I tried the sans-lanolin
variety once which is why I know!

It is great for removing grease though.

Jeff
>
> --Vic.
>
>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Should I buy a gas gussler?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/fabb5d064cc35efb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 1:25 pm
From: The Real Bev

Rod Speed wrote:

> The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote
>> clams_casino wrote
>>> Lou wrote
>
>>>> And really, how/when you pay for it is not the point - almost
>>>> anything you buy, the value drops precipitously as you leave
>>>> the store or the first time you use it. Visit just about any
>>>> yard sale. There may be more dollars invovled when the item
>>>> under consideration is a car, but the principle is the same.
>
>> Latest bargain: A Garmin e-Map GPS for $1.00. Not fully up to
>> date as far as highways go, but good enough to tell you where you
>> are. It can be updated, but I'd need to buy a $15 cable and a $90
>> CD to do that.
>
> Nope, just the cable, and its a lot cheaper than that.

Including shipping? Where?

--
Cheers, Bev
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I bought a tape called "Subliminal Advertising"
The next day I bought 47 more.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 2:53 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rod Speed wrote:
>
>> The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote
>>> clams_casino wrote
>>>> Lou wrote
>>
>>>>> And really, how/when you pay for it is not the point - almost
>>>>> anything you buy, the value drops precipitously as you leave
>>>>> the store or the first time you use it. Visit just about any
>>>>> yard sale. There may be more dollars invovled when the item
>>>>> under consideration is a car, but the principle is the same.
>>
>>> Latest bargain: A Garmin e-Map GPS for $1.00. Not fully up to
>>> date as far as highways go, but good enough to tell you where you
>>> are. It can be updated, but I'd need to buy a $15 cable and a $90
>>> CD to do that.

>> Nope, just the cable, and its a lot cheaper than that.

> Including shipping? Where?

ebay.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 3:06 pm
From: The Real Bev

Rod Speed wrote:

> The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>
>>> The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote
>>>
>>>> Latest bargain: A Garmin e-Map GPS for $1.00. Not fully up to
>>>> date as far as highways go, but good enough to tell you where you
>>>> are. It can be updated, but I'd need to buy a $15 cable and a $90
>>>> CD to do that.
>
>>> Nope, just the cable, and its a lot cheaper than that.
>
>> Including shipping? Where?
>
> ebay.

Yeah, that's where I looked. About $15 including shipping. If you have
a better link, please post.

--
Cheers,
Bev
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I don't need instructions, I have a hammer."
-- T.W. Wier

==============================================================================
TOPIC: sealant around steel shed
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/168c78c0fe822788?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 1:37 pm
From: Cicero

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 07:54:28 +0100, john hamilton wrote:

> Have just erected a yardmaster tin shed. I need to put a 'sealant'
> around the edge of the steel frame base where it sits on the concrete
> foundation, to prevent water traveling in under the frame.
>
> I normally get things like sealants from Wickes or Screwfix, but there
> are a bewildering array of different sealants available. Would anyone
> recommend which would be the one to use in this particular application
> please?

===================================
I would suggest a strong mortar weathering fillet about 2 or 3 inches
high, depending on how much space there is on the slab. Leave a small gap
at the top between fillet and shed wall and cover the gap with a basic
'frame sealant' from Wickes when the fillet is dry. Be prepared to repair
every 20 years.

Cic.
--
===================================
Using Ubuntu Linux
Windows shown the door
===================================

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Leaking Refrigerator Troubleshooting Guide With Pictures
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d7955180d046ea0c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 1:46 pm
From: Paul Michaels

Our refrigerator recently developed a water leak so I did a lot of
online research and went through a list of possible problems trying to
fix it and stop the leak.

It turned out that it was leaking because the freezer defrost drain
pan and hose were clogged up with ice and debris, which sent the water
dripping down into the fresh food section of the refrigerator through
the cold air vents.

I took pictures of the repair procedure and created a quick
instruction guide that hopefully will help some of you fix this
problem yourself and save money.

The page also includes a few of the other problems that might cause a
refrigerator to leak and some suggested solutions.

Here's the guide -
http://www.paulstravelpictures.com/How-To-Fix-A-Leaking-Refrigerator

Cheers,
Paul Michaels
Ft. Lauderdale, FL

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Rue du Commerce (rueducommerce.fr)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/dcb640a98bc226e5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 1:51 pm
From: Frédéric KLOTZ - RueDuCommerce

Cher Monsieur Dailey,

Nous avons déjà répondu à ce message copié-collé sur le net tout
entier ;o)

Ce matin, vos frais d'envoi vous ont été remboursés pour nous excuser
du désagrément lié à votre livraison.

Notre service client se situe en France et n'a pas pour habitude de
raccrocher au nez des clients, et je regrette véritablement qu'un tel
incident ai pu ce produire, j'ai ouvert une enquête interne à ce
sujet.

Suite à votre appel, il a d'ailleurs fait le nécessaire pour que votre
livraison soit faite dans les meilleurs délais.

Cordialement,

Frédéric Klotz
Responsable Qualité
RueDuCommerce

On 20 août, 13:10, jdailey <jdaile...@gmail.com> wrote:
> LIVRAISON = NULLE !!!
>
> J'attends toujours un produit de Rue de Commerce pour lequel la date
> de livraison "au plus tard" est dépassée depuis 3 jours.
> J'avais pris l'option Chronopost pour l'avoir plus rapidement - GROSSE
> ERREUR ! D'abord le colis à été expédié dans un autre département. RDC
> à réinitilaisé un envoi le lendemain en me disant que je recevrais un
> mail de confirmation - je n'ai jamais reçu le mail.
>
> En téléphonant à Chronopost, pour le 2e essai d'envoi, ils ont dit
> qu'ils n'ont pas trouvé l'adresse et ont ramené le colis - alors que
> le livreur avait bien mon numéro de téléphone il n'a pas essayé de me
> joindre. Je leur demande donc de me le livrer sur mon lieu de travail,
> comme visiblement ils sont plus apt à trouver des bureaux que des
> résidences. Chronopost me dit qu'ils peuvent le faire à condition que
> RDC leur donne l'autorisation. Je demande donc à RDC de faire le
> necéssaire et le service client m'a racroché au nez ! Il me semble que
> RDC qui était autrefois une commerce fiable est en train de se
> dégrader. Vu les remarques sur les fautes de français dans les
> correspondances qu'un autre a signalé dans cette discussion je
> supçonne que RDC commence à délocaliser le service client dans un pays
> du tiers monde, comme c'est bien à la mode actuellement.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Please Help...Need your recommendations - Lasik
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/525539cb42ab1286?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 2:00 pm
From: rita

We would all like answers to the lasik questions the person posted.
Similar questions have been posted like this many times by other too.
That is the whole idea of groups.
Please refrain from slamming people unless you are 100% sure and have
100% proof.

On Aug 19, 5:30 pm, Walter <m...@privacy.net.invalid> wrote:
> Samantha Hill - remove TRASH to reply <samh...@TRASHsonic.net>
> wrote innews:48ab0788$0$17216$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net:
>
> > This is the same spammer who is conducting consumer research
> > studies on Usenet. GRRRRRR
>
> report him/her to their ISP or posting nntp server.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The DSL 12-Month Commitment
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/bb1b6c0797411fac?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 2:08 pm
From: spam@nospam.org (Messiah Obama)

On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 04:51:40 +1000, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

>Jack <Windswept@Home> wrote

>> Maybe you're one of the few lucky ones.
>
>Unlikely. If they were as bad as you claim, you'd have seen class action suits by now.

Forget DSL, we had progressively deteriorating Verizon phone service
for a couple of years, mostly occasional static, but techs could find
nothing wrong. It finally got to the point that the service would go
out completely for several hours a day and dial-up internet downloaded
less than 10 kbps. This lasted a month before a tech finally
diagnosed that their surge protector was damaged and replaced it.

Veizon credited the bill for that last month but the service was
defective for a coupla yrs.

So I can understand the original poster's fears. Wouldn't want to
sign-up for a year's DSL and have it out of order for a month.

== 2 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 2:25 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Messiah Obama <spam@nospam.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 04:51:40 +1000, "Rod Speed"
> <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Jack <Windswept@Home> wrote
>
>>> Maybe you're one of the few lucky ones.
>>
>> Unlikely. If they were as bad as you claim, you'd have seen class
>> action suits by now.
>
> Forget DSL, we had progressively deteriorating Verizon phone service
> for a couple of years, mostly occasional static, but techs could find
> nothing wrong. It finally got to the point that the service would go
> out completely for several hours a day and dial-up internet downloaded
> less than 10 kbps. This lasted a month before a tech finally
> diagnosed that their surge protector was damaged and replaced it.

> Veizon credited the bill for that last month but the service was
> defective for a coupla yrs.

> So I can understand the original poster's fears. Wouldn't want to
> sign-up for a year's DSL and have it out of order for a month.

Using that mindless line, you'd never sign up for anything.

If you end up with a defective service, you can ALWAYS cancel if you want.

== 3 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 2:34 pm
From: spam@nospam.org (Messiah Obama)

On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 07:25:14 +1000, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

>Messiah Obama <spam@nospam.org> wrote:
>> On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 04:51:40 +1000, "Rod Speed"
>> <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Jack <Windswept@Home> wrote
>>
>>>> Maybe you're one of the few lucky ones.
>>>
>>> Unlikely. If they were as bad as you claim, you'd have seen class
>>> action suits by now.
>>
>> Forget DSL, we had progressively deteriorating Verizon phone service
>> for a couple of years, mostly occasional static, but techs could find
>> nothing wrong. It finally got to the point that the service would go
>> out completely for several hours a day and dial-up internet downloaded
>> less than 10 kbps. This lasted a month before a tech finally
>> diagnosed that their surge protector was damaged and replaced it.
>
>> Veizon credited the bill for that last month but the service was
>> defective for a coupla yrs.
>
>> So I can understand the original poster's fears. Wouldn't want to
>> sign-up for a year's DSL and have it out of order for a month.
>
>Using that mindless line, you'd never sign up for anything.

Furthermore, it wasn't until we complained to BBB that Verizon finally
fixed the problem amd applied the credit.

>If you end up with a defective service, you can ALWAYS cancel if you want.

Regarding the DSL service, yeah, you can cancel and lose the money as
well as have your card charged with early termination penalty. Most
people aren't going to small claims court over something like this and
Verizon knows it. Hell, it would end up costing more than what you
would gain from any lawsuit.

== 4 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 2:38 pm
From: Gordon

Windswept@Home (Jack) wrote in news:48ac39a8.14164593@news-60.giganews.com:

> There are lots of complaints about the the two DSL providers available
> here: Verizon and NetZero. The complaints focus around delayed
> service ready dates, disconnects which last up to 14 days, and
> piss-poor support.
>
> If they offered month-to-month plans, it wouldn't be so bad. You
> could merely cancel. But with the 12-month commitment which requires
> an early termination penalty as well as full pmt. for the 12 months,
> there is no incentive for good support.
>
> What a racket! You pay for a shoddy product and are stuck with it!
>
> Guess I'll always be a low-tech dial-up guy.

Well, Netzero isn't a telco, so they don't have their own lines.
They probably resell Verizon DSL. Which would account for their
poor ratings. Verizon users tend to have a love/hate relationship
with Verizon. We love it when it works, but god forbid it should
break. I have had Verizon DSL for 4 (maybe 5) years. It has worked
almost flawlessly. For a while there was a software problem that
required me to power cycle the modem every few days. But that
has been fixed. The biggest problem was when I moved. They took
14 days to get the DSL lines moved to across the street. In the
mean time I had to use dial up. THey didn't want to give me the
dial up number at first, but I insisted. Dial-up or cancel. They
wisely gave me the dial-up number. AFAIK they still maintain a
1-800 dial-up number.

== 5 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 2:44 pm
From: Windswept@Home (Jack)

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:38:03 +0200 (CEST), Gordon
<gonzo@alltomyself.com> wrote:

> For a while there was a software problem that
>required me to power cycle the modem every few days.

For those of us who are klutzes, what does this mean?

I've heard similar problems, e.g., one guy said he had to re-synch his
modem.

Well, those of us who are old geezers and technology-challenged don't
have a clue what all of this means.

Just don't have these kinds of problems with dial-up.

== 6 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 2:49 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

>>>>> Maybe you're one of the few lucky ones.

>>>> Unlikely. If they were as bad as you claim, you'd have seen class action suits by now.

>>> Forget DSL, we had progressively deteriorating Verizon phone
>>> service for a couple of years, mostly occasional static, but techs
>>> could find nothing wrong. It finally got to the point that the
>>> service would go out completely for several hours a day and
>>> dial-up internet downloaded less than 10 kbps. This lasted
>>> a month before a tech finally diagnosed that their surge
>>> protector was damaged and replaced it.

>>> Veizon credited the bill for that last month but the service was defective for a coupla yrs.

>>> So I can understand the original poster's fears. Wouldn't want to
>>> sign-up for a year's DSL and have it out of order for a month.

>> Using that mindless line, you'd never sign up for anything.

> Furthermore, it wasn't until we complained to BBB that
> Verizon finally fixed the problem amd applied the credit.

And you could have done that much earlier, when they didnt find any problem the first time.

>> If you end up with a defective service, you can ALWAYS cancel if you want.

> Regarding the DSL service, yeah, you can cancel and lose the money
> as well as have your card charged with early termination penalty.

You can also use the small claims court if they wont waive that when they cant provide the service that you paid for.

> Most people aren't going to small claims court over something like this and Verizon knows it.

Most people are irrelevant. What matters is that they also know what the small claims court
will rule and arent stupid enough to incur the costs involved in a guaranteed loss there.

> Hell, it would end up costing more than what you would gain from any lawsuit.

Wrong again. They get to pay those costs when they lose. As they inevitably would.

== 7 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 3:08 pm
From: William Souden

Rod Speed wrote:
> Messiah Obama <spam@nospam.org> wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Messiah Obama <spam@nospam.org> wrote
>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> Jack <Windswept@Home> wrote
>
>>>>>> Maybe you're one of the few lucky ones.
>
>>>>> Unlikely. If they were as bad as you claim, you'd have seen class action suits by now.
>
>>>> Forget DSL, we had progressively deteriorating Verizon phone
>>>> service for a couple of years, mostly occasional static, but techs
>>>> could find nothing wrong. It finally got to the point that the
>>>> service would go out completely for several hours a day and
>>>> dial-up internet downloaded less than 10 kbps. This lasted
>>>> a month before a tech finally diagnosed that their surge
>>>> protector was damaged and replaced it.
>
>>>> Veizon credited the bill for that last month but the service was defective for a coupla yrs.
>
>>>> So I can understand the original poster's fears. Wouldn't want to
>>>> sign-up for a year's DSL and have it out of order for a month.
>
>>> Using that mindless line, you'd never sign up for anything.
>
>> Furthermore, it wasn't until we complained to BBB that
>> Verizon finally fixed the problem amd applied the credit.
>
> And you could have done that much earlier, when they didnt find any problem the first time.
>
>>> If you end up with a defective service, you can ALWAYS cancel if you want.
>
>> Regarding the DSL service, yeah, you can cancel and lose the money
>> as well as have your card charged with early termination penalty.
>
> You can also use the small claims court if they wont waive that when they cant provide the service that you paid for.
>
>> Most people aren't going to small claims court over something like this and Verizon knows it.
>
> Most people are irrelevant. What matters is that they also know what the small claims court
> will rule and arent stupid enough to incur the costs involved in a guaranteed loss there.
>
>> Hell, it would end up costing more than what you would gain from any lawsuit.
>
> Wrong again. They get to pay those costs when they lose. As they inevitably would.

Meanwhile you have to deal with disputing your credit bill,disputing
any negative entries on your credit report and taking the time to file
the small claims suit.
>
>

== 8 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 3:14 pm
From: The Real Bev

Jack wrote:

> On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:38:03 +0200 (CEST), Gordon
> <gonzo@alltomyself.com> wrote:
>
>> For a while there was a software problem that
>>required me to power cycle the modem every few days.
>
> For those of us who are klutzes, what does this mean?

Turn it off. Wait a minute or so. Turn it back on. If it doesn't have
a switch, just unplug it. This is the first thing you try before you
call the helpdroid, and it fixes the majority of of connection problems.

> I've heard similar problems, e.g., one guy said he had to re-synch his
> modem.

It sometimes takes a while for them to assign you an IP address.

> Well, those of us who are old geezers and technology-challenged don't
> have a clue what all of this means.
>
> Just don't have these kinds of problems with dial-up.

Yeah, but then you couldn't be on line all day and still get telephone
calls. You dreaded having people send you pictures. And you had to
wait while the modem make the call+connection.

Fast is better.

--
Cheers,
Bev
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I don't need instructions, I have a hammer."
-- T.W. Wier

== 9 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 3:24 pm
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"The Real Bev" <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:rH0rk.1597$Fr1.643@newsfe03.iad...
> Jack wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:38:03 +0200 (CEST), Gordon
>> <gonzo@alltomyself.com> wrote:
>>
>>> For a while there was a software problem that
>>>required me to power cycle the modem every few days.
>>
>> For those of us who are klutzes, what does this mean?
>
> Turn it off. Wait a minute or so. Turn it back on. If it doesn't have a
> switch, just unplug it. This is the first thing you try before you call
> the helpdroid, and it fixes the majority of of connection problems.

doing that has never fixed my problems.

== 10 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 3:28 pm
From: spam@nospam.org (Messiah Obama)

On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 07:49:53 +1000, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

>Messiah Obama <spam@nospam.org> wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Messiah Obama <spam@nospam.org> wrote
>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> Jack <Windswept@Home> wrote
>
>>>>>> Maybe you're one of the few lucky ones.
>
>>>>> Unlikely. If they were as bad as you claim, you'd have seen class action suits by now.
>
>>>> Forget DSL, we had progressively deteriorating Verizon phone
>>>> service for a couple of years, mostly occasional static, but techs
>>>> could find nothing wrong. It finally got to the point that the
>>>> service would go out completely for several hours a day and
>>>> dial-up internet downloaded less than 10 kbps. This lasted
>>>> a month before a tech finally diagnosed that their surge
>>>> protector was damaged and replaced it.
>
>>>> Veizon credited the bill for that last month but the service was defective for a coupla yrs.
>
>>>> So I can understand the original poster's fears. Wouldn't want to
>>>> sign-up for a year's DSL and have it out of order for a month.
>
>>> Using that mindless line, you'd never sign up for anything.
>
>> Furthermore, it wasn't until we complained to BBB that
>> Verizon finally fixed the problem amd applied the credit.
>
>And you could have done that much earlier, when they didnt find any problem the first time.

Should have, but the problem was "livable" until that last month.

>>> If you end up with a defective service, you can ALWAYS cancel if you want.
>
>> Regarding the DSL service, yeah, you can cancel and lose the money
>> as well as have your card charged with early termination penalty.
>
>You can also use the small claims court if they wont waive that when they cant provide the service that you paid for.

>> Most people aren't going to small claims court over something like this and Verizon knows it.
>
>Most people are irrelevant. What matters is that they also know what the small claims court
>will rule and arent stupid enough to incur the costs involved in a guaranteed loss there.

Most people are quite relevant. Whatever Verizon loses in occasional
individual cases is more than compensated for and Verizon plays the
odds against the possibility of a class action.

>> Hell, it would end up costing more than what you would gain from any lawsuit.
>
>Wrong again. They get to pay those costs when they lose. As they inevitably would.

Even if that's true, it's just the time, effort, and delays that are
inherit with the judicial system make recovery fo $300 or whatever not
worth it.

The ideal situation would be a modem that could be used for all DSLs
and which you would buy and own up front. Then have a month-to-month
provider plan.

== 11 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 3:34 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

William Souden <souden@nospam.com> wrote:
> Rod Speed wrote:
>> Messiah Obama <spam@nospam.org> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Messiah Obama <spam@nospam.org> wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>> Jack <Windswept@Home> wrote
>>
>>>>>>> Maybe you're one of the few lucky ones.
>>
>>>>>> Unlikely. If they were as bad as you claim, you'd have seen
>>>>>> class action suits by now.
>>
>>>>> Forget DSL, we had progressively deteriorating Verizon phone
>>>>> service for a couple of years, mostly occasional static, but techs
>>>>> could find nothing wrong. It finally got to the point that the
>>>>> service would go out completely for several hours a day and
>>>>> dial-up internet downloaded less than 10 kbps. This lasted
>>>>> a month before a tech finally diagnosed that their surge
>>>>> protector was damaged and replaced it.
>>
>>>>> Veizon credited the bill for that last month but the service was
>>>>> defective for a coupla yrs.
>>
>>>>> So I can understand the original poster's fears. Wouldn't want to
>>>>> sign-up for a year's DSL and have it out of order for a month.
>>
>>>> Using that mindless line, you'd never sign up for anything.
>>
>>> Furthermore, it wasn't until we complained to BBB that
>>> Verizon finally fixed the problem amd applied the credit.
>>
>> And you could have done that much earlier, when they didnt find any
>> problem the first time.
>>>> If you end up with a defective service, you can ALWAYS cancel if
>>>> you want.
>>
>>> Regarding the DSL service, yeah, you can cancel and lose the money
>>> as well as have your card charged with early termination penalty.
>>
>> You can also use the small claims court if they wont waive that when
>> they cant provide the service that you paid for.
>>> Most people aren't going to small claims court over something like
>>> this and Verizon knows it.
>>
>> Most people are irrelevant. What matters is that they also know what
>> the small claims court will rule and arent stupid enough to incur the costs involved in a
>> guaranteed loss there.
>>> Hell, it would end up costing more than what you would gain from
>>> any lawsuit.
>>
>> Wrong again. They get to pay those costs when they lose. As they
>> inevitably would.

> Meanwhile you have to deal with disputing your credit bill,

Nope, dont have to do that when you threaten them with the small claims court and see them waive the early
termination payment because thats cheaper for them than what the small claims court will slug them if they dont.

> disputing any negative entries on your credit report

> and taking the time to file the small claims suit.

== 12 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 3:40 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Messiah Obama <spam@nospam.org> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Messiah Obama <spam@nospam.org> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Messiah Obama <spam@nospam.org> wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>> Jack <Windswept@Home> wrote

>>>>>>> Maybe you're one of the few lucky ones.

>>>>>> Unlikely. If they were as bad as you claim, you'd have seen class action suits by now.

>>>>> Forget DSL, we had progressively deteriorating Verizon phone
>>>>> service for a couple of years, mostly occasional static, but techs
>>>>> could find nothing wrong. It finally got to the point that the
>>>>> service would go out completely for several hours a day and
>>>>> dial-up internet downloaded less than 10 kbps. This lasted
>>>>> a month before a tech finally diagnosed that their surge
>>>>> protector was damaged and replaced it.

>>>>> Veizon credited the bill for that last month but the service was defective for a coupla yrs.

>>>>> So I can understand the original poster's fears. Wouldn't want to
>>>>> sign-up for a year's DSL and have it out of order for a month.

>>>> Using that mindless line, you'd never sign up for anything.

>>> Furthermore, it wasn't until we complained to BBB that
>>> Verizon finally fixed the problem amd applied the credit.

>> And you could have done that much earlier, when they didnt find any problem the first time.

> Should have, but the problem was "livable" until that last month.

>>>> If you end up with a defective service, you can ALWAYS cancel if you want.

>>> Regarding the DSL service, yeah, you can cancel and lose the money
>>> as well as have your card charged with early termination penalty.

>> You can also use the small claims court if they wont waive that when
>> they cant provide the service that you paid for.

>>> Most people aren't going to small claims court over something like this and Verizon knows it.

>> Most people are irrelevant. What matters is that they also know what the small claims court
>> will rule and arent stupid enough to incur the costs involved in a guaranteed loss there.

> Most people are quite relevant.

Nope, completely irrelevant if you dont like the ETP and they cant deliver a viable service.

> Whatever Verizon loses in occasional individual cases is more than compensated for

Irrelevant to what happens when Verizon realises that you are prepared to use the small claims court.

> and Verizon plays the odds against the possibility of a class action.

Yes, but they dont when Verizon realises that you are prepared to use the small claims court.

>>> Hell, it would end up costing more than what you would gain from any lawsuit.

>> Wrong again. They get to pay those costs when they lose. As they inevitably would.

> Even if that's true,

Corse its true, and Verizon knows that.

> it's just the time, effort, and delays that are inherit with the judicial
> system make recovery fo $300 or whatever not worth it.

You dont have to do it, just make it clear to Verizon that if they dont waive the ETP
when they cant deliver the service you paid for, that you will use the small claims court.

Verizon will realise that you do know your legal rights and will waive the ETP rather
than end up paying a lot more as a result of them losing in the small claims court.

> The ideal situation would be a modem that could be used for all DSLs and which
> you would buy and own up front. Then have a month-to-month provider plan.

Plenty of operations do it like that. Its got real downsides support wise tho.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Frugal hi speed internet?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/47603876a73acdc1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 2:08 pm
From: Gordon

George Grapman <sfgeorge@paccbell.net> wrote in news:1fIqk.20299$uE5.10360
@flpi144.ffdc.sbc.com:

> The modem number is not listed and I
> never give it out so when it rings it is a wrong number or,more often a
> telemarketer. I usually ignore it but every so often I say"Federal Trade
> Commission,phone fraud unit,may I help you?" and hear a click.
>

ROTFLMAO!!

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 2:17 pm
From: Gordon

nonsense@mynonsense.net wrote in
news:7ca521ac-8172-4a6a-b947-82e9f23dbdfc@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:

> On Aug 19, 3:58 pm, "catalpa" <cata...@entertab.org> wrote:
>> "catalpa" <cata...@entertab.org> wrote in message
>>
>> news:urGqk.302$UX.76@trnddc03...
>>
>>
>>
>> > <nonse...@mynonsense.net> wrote in message
>> >news:ae1ef6e7-7a2f-41e7-ac3f-
98733f3c7a3b@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com
>> >...
>> >>I am looking for cheap hi-speed internet. My current provider,
>> >>Comcast
>> >> is raising the price to $60/ month but it includes basic cable
>> >> which I dont care for. I notice AT&T has a $20/ month plan. Does
>> >> one need to have a landline for that? If not, how much does the
>> >> final bill end up being after taxes and everything?
>>
>> > You want DSL dry loop. You probably have to fight with AT&T to get
>> > it.
>>
>> > Here is year old information:
>> >http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/How-to-Get-2399-ATT-Dry-Loop-DSL-
8
>> >...
>>
>> After I posted that I noticed that AT&T calls it "AT&T Direct DSL"
>> and sells it atwww.connecttoatt.com.
>
> Thanks, that's exactly what I am looking for! Anyone know if this 768
> kpbs is good enough for VOIP with webcam?

768 is the downstream (to you) speed. It's plenty fast for most any
use. I watch TV on my computer with a 768 DSL connection. But, double
check to see what the upstream speed is. It's usualy less. Like
128Kbps. Voip may be OK, but web cam video may be iffy. It would depend
on frame rate and picture size.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 2:20 pm
From: Gordon

"JR Weiss" <jrweiss98155remove@remove.comcast.net> wrote in
news:L6adnR7NC91H_DHVnZ2dnUVZ_tCdnZ2d@comcast.com:

> <nonsense@mynonsense.net> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks, that's exactly what I am looking for! Anyone know if this 768
>> kpbs is good enough for VOIP with webcam?
>
> VOIP (e.g., Skype) is usable even at dial-up speeds, so the voice part
> will not be a problem. You'll likely get very low frame rates on a
> web cam, especially if it is a high-resolution camera.
>
> For a quick analysis, a QVGA camera (320x240 pixels) uses 75 KiloBytes
> (KB) or 600 Kilobits (Kb) per frame for 8-bit color. Compression
> could easily reduce that by 2/3, for 200 Kb per frame. That would
> allow about 3 frames per second. Monochrome could give a significantly
> higher frame rate.
>
>
Except that that is for the 768K downstream speed. Uptream speeds
will be more like 128K.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Vote for John McCain.. a mans man...not some pointy nose, smart guy.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4f41a0c9e221cb6f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 2:52 pm
From: phil scott

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGWakF5XgYM&NR=1

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Wednesday, August 20, 2008

25 new messages in 9 topics - digest

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