Frugal Living: 26 new messages in 8 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

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Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: ot: Democrat: Obama's grandma confirms Kenyan birth
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8e80385d4cd9e3d1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Oct 26 2008 10:35 pm
From: JonL

Shawn Hirn wrote:
> In article <ge2tps$4d8$2@reader1.panix.com>,
> richgr@panix.com (Rich Greenberg) wrote:
>
>> In article <a-OdnXpgHuxlRJnUnZ2dnUVZ_uSdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
>> Bob F <bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> His mother is an American. So he is an American citizen, no matter where he
>>> was
>>> born anyway.
>>>
>>> I am constantly amazed about the lies the wackos make up.
>> No one (that I know of) is claiming he is not a US citizen. But to be
>> president requires more. He must be a US citizen AND be born in the
>> USA. Its this latter test the wackos are claiming he fails.
>
> Really? Where is that written? The Constitution says only that a
> president be a natural born citizen.

I think to qualify as natural born his mother would have had to return
to the US for at least 5 years. She may have spent 5 in Hawaii, it's
kinda murky,imo.

Either way, there's something fishy here...his "Certificate of Live
Birth" is a crude forgery, according to Israeli experts. The security
pattern is unlike any used in Hawaii at that time.
Also, some politically-correct amateur forger entered _African_ as his
race.` The term for blacks on all legal docs in Hawaii at that time was
_Negro.

Then there's the minor issue of him attending a public school in
Indonesia.`(Iirc, the 2nd school he attended there was public)
At that time only citizens of Indonesia were allowed to attend public
schools. Dual citizenship was not recognized at that time, so he must
have become a naturalized Indonesian citizen.

Without his mother present, was he able to get his US citizenship
reinstated, assuming he was a US cit when they left Hawaii 4 Indonesia??

btw, McCain was born in the People's Republic of Panama

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 27 2008 6:54 am
From: E Z Peaces

JonL wrote:

>
> Either way, there's something fishy here...his "Certificate of Live
> Birth" is a crude forgery, according to Israeli experts. The security
> pattern is unlike any used in Hawaii at that time.

I've read about a so-called "Israeli expert" who says the security
pattern is wrong. He claims membership in the American College of
Forensic Examiners. This cannot be verified because he is known only by
an internet screen name. In spite of this precaution, he claims that as
he was preparing his report on the online birth certificate, somebody
tracked him down and vandalized his car. He assumes the culprit worked
for Obama's organization.

> Also, some politically-correct amateur forger entered _African_ as his
> race.` The term for blacks on all legal docs in Hawaii at that time was
> _Negro.
>
>
How did you find that out? With so many dark-skinned people who were
not African, I imagine Hawaiians would have preferred terms more
specific than "Negro."

How do you think the politically-correct amateur forger got Obama's
birth announcement planted in the August 13, 1961 _Honolulu Advertiser_?

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 27 2008 6:59 am
From: Bert Hyman

cash@invalid.invalid (E Z Peaces) wrote in
news:rDjNk.80529$XB4.20649@bignews9.bellsouth.net:

> I've read about a so-called "Israeli expert" who says the security
> pattern is wrong. He claims membership in the American College of
> Forensic Examiners. This cannot be verified because he is known
> only by an internet screen name. In spite of this precaution, he
> claims that as he was preparing his report on the online birth
> certificate, somebody tracked him down and vandalized his car. He
> assumes the culprit worked for Obama's organization.

Here's a guy who claims that he has information that would prove a
major party candidate for US President is ineligible to serve and is
pulling off a major fraud, and for this the worst the candidate can do
to him is vandalize his car.

That's funny.

--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN | bert@iphouse.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: vacuum cleaner new
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/2e8cc394cc50a344?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 27 2008 2:33 am
From: andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel)

In article <af7Nk.51798$XT1.33709@bignews5.bellsouth.net>,
E Z Peaces <cash@invalid.invalid> writes:
> john d hamilton wrote:
>> This photo shows the black very thin plastic type filter that sits facing
>> the fan on a household Hitachi CV-SF8 vacuum cleaner.
>>
>> http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=11rxdm0&s=4
>>
>> Immediately behind this sits a plastic frame with a nylon fine mesh filter
>> and sitting in this frame is a black high density sponge filter. (doing a
>> search on this sponge filter, it's called a Mesh-Urethane filter).
>>
>> http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=6gv5tl&s=4
>>
>> This Mesh-Urethane filter is on the *right* side of this photo, the black
>> one on the left is the reverse of the very thin plastic type filter referred
>> to above.
>>
>> This Mesh-Urethane filter really restricts the air flow. Its a bit better
>> when I wash it out under the tap with soap and water but soon seems to clog
>> up again. I find it works quite well if I relace it entirely with a piece of
>> soft tissue toilet paper, and keep changing the paper and all the debris
>> that builds up behind it.
>>
>> Now the question here is what exactly is this very thin plastic type filter
>> (if indeed it is actually a filter) doing? It's the one on the left in the
>> second photo. It seems to have microscopic slits in its surface, but when I
>> wash it, it wont pass water through it, which surely it would if its some
>> kind of filter? It's a thin flexible piece of plastic sheet, and seems
>> really strong. Almost like a sheet of carbon fibre.
>
> The first stage is supposed to get rid of almost all the dust by
> centrifugal force. If the air then clogs a filter frequently, I wonder
> if something is wrong with the first stage.

If you want a cyclone cleaner that works, you're really going
to struggle with anything other that a Dyson. Dyson have a stack
of patents relating to designing cyclones small enough to be part
of a vacuum cleaner which actually work, that's it's pretty
impossible for other manufacturers to come close. His original
dual cyclone patent expired which is why you now see other
manufacturers doing those, but they're stuck with following all
his advances 25 years behind.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

== 2 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 27 2008 3:05 am
From: max

In article <49058ae0$0$502$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk>,
andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

> In article <af7Nk.51798$XT1.33709@bignews5.bellsouth.net>,
> E Z Peaces <cash@invalid.invalid> writes:
> > john d hamilton wrote:
> >> This photo shows the black very thin plastic type filter that sits facing
> >> the fan on a household Hitachi CV-SF8 vacuum cleaner.
> >>
> >> http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=11rxdm0&s=4
> >>
> >> Immediately behind this sits a plastic frame with a nylon fine mesh filter
> >> and sitting in this frame is a black high density sponge filter. (doing a
> >> search on this sponge filter, it's called a Mesh-Urethane filter).
> >>
> >> http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=6gv5tl&s=4
> >>
> >> This Mesh-Urethane filter is on the *right* side of this photo, the black
> >> one on the left is the reverse of the very thin plastic type filter
> >> referred
> >> to above.
> >>
> >> This Mesh-Urethane filter really restricts the air flow. Its a bit better
> >> when I wash it out under the tap with soap and water but soon seems to
> >> clog
> >> up again. I find it works quite well if I relace it entirely with a piece
> >> of
> >> soft tissue toilet paper, and keep changing the paper and all the debris
> >> that builds up behind it.
> >>
> >> Now the question here is what exactly is this very thin plastic type
> >> filter
> >> (if indeed it is actually a filter) doing? It's the one on the left in
> >> the
> >> second photo. It seems to have microscopic slits in its surface, but when
> >> I
> >> wash it, it wont pass water through it, which surely it would if its some
> >> kind of filter? It's a thin flexible piece of plastic sheet, and seems
> >> really strong. Almost like a sheet of carbon fibre.
> >
> > The first stage is supposed to get rid of almost all the dust by
> > centrifugal force. If the air then clogs a filter frequently, I wonder
> > if something is wrong with the first stage.
>
> If you want a cyclone cleaner that works, you're really going
> to struggle with anything other that a Dyson. Dyson have a stack
> of patents relating to designing cyclones small enough to be part
> of a vacuum cleaner which actually work, that's it's pretty
> impossible for other manufacturers to come close. His original
> dual cyclone patent expired which is why you now see other
> manufacturers doing those, but they're stuck with following all
> his advances 25 years behind.

horse shit. utter horseshit. Dyson's vacuums are devoid of any genuine
innovation whatsoever. His patents are as meritous as AOL's attempt to
patent the smiley face emoticon. He adapted the cyclone filter to a
carpet sucker. whoopie. wow!!! His innovation has a great more to do
with the advances made in material science making available to him the
possibility of doing something different. . A Dyson-style vacuum made
in 1950 would have been beyond the means of 75% of consumers.

His brushless air jet models are polycarbonate frauds.

People should AVOID Dyson vacuums unless they like pissing their money
away. They work no better than any other cyclone vacuum available at
Walmart or Target. No difference. No Advances. Simple 19th century
soot collection.

They are, however, have the unique benefit of being possessed of superb
design, and are, as such works of functional art worthy of buying simply
for that reason. But a frugal person would avoid Dysons as if it were a
plague carrier. We won't mention the abominable ergonomics of some of
his designs, as they are self-evident and glaring. Dyson = Hype.

Save money-- buy a Hoover or a Bissel or a Snorch.

.max

--
This signature can be appended to your outgoing mesages. Many people include in
their signatures contact information, and perhaps a joke or quotation.

== 3 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 27 2008 5:21 am
From: Archon

max wrote:
> In article <49058ae0$0$502$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk>,
> andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) wrote:
>
>> In article <af7Nk.51798$XT1.33709@bignews5.bellsouth.net>,
>> E Z Peaces <cash@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>> john d hamilton wrote:
>>>> This photo shows the black very thin plastic type filter that sits facing
>>>> the fan on a household Hitachi CV-SF8 vacuum cleaner.
>>>>
>>>> http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=11rxdm0&s=4
>>>>
>>>> Immediately behind this sits a plastic frame with a nylon fine mesh filter
>>>> and sitting in this frame is a black high density sponge filter. (doing a
>>>> search on this sponge filter, it's called a Mesh-Urethane filter).
>>>>
>>>> http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=6gv5tl&s=4
>>>>
>>>> This Mesh-Urethane filter is on the *right* side of this photo, the black
>>>> one on the left is the reverse of the very thin plastic type filter
>>>> referred
>>>> to above.
>>>>
>>>> This Mesh-Urethane filter really restricts the air flow. Its a bit better
>>>> when I wash it out under the tap with soap and water but soon seems to
>>>> clog
>>>> up again. I find it works quite well if I relace it entirely with a piece
>>>> of
>>>> soft tissue toilet paper, and keep changing the paper and all the debris
>>>> that builds up behind it.
>>>>
>>>> Now the question here is what exactly is this very thin plastic type
>>>> filter
>>>> (if indeed it is actually a filter) doing? It's the one on the left in
>>>> the
>>>> second photo. It seems to have microscopic slits in its surface, but when
>>>> I
>>>> wash it, it wont pass water through it, which surely it would if its some
>>>> kind of filter? It's a thin flexible piece of plastic sheet, and seems
>>>> really strong. Almost like a sheet of carbon fibre.
>>> The first stage is supposed to get rid of almost all the dust by
>>> centrifugal force. If the air then clogs a filter frequently, I wonder
>>> if something is wrong with the first stage.
>> If you want a cyclone cleaner that works, you're really going
>> to struggle with anything other that a Dyson. Dyson have a stack
>> of patents relating to designing cyclones small enough to be part
>> of a vacuum cleaner which actually work, that's it's pretty
>> impossible for other manufacturers to come close. His original
>> dual cyclone patent expired which is why you now see other
>> manufacturers doing those, but they're stuck with following all
>> his advances 25 years behind.
>
> horse shit. utter horseshit. Dyson's vacuums are devoid of any genuine
> innovation whatsoever. His patents are as meritous as AOL's attempt to
> patent the smiley face emoticon. He adapted the cyclone filter to a
> carpet sucker. whoopie. wow!!! His innovation has a great more to do
> with the advances made in material science making available to him the
> possibility of doing something different. . A Dyson-style vacuum made
> in 1950 would have been beyond the means of 75% of consumers.
>
> His brushless air jet models are polycarbonate frauds.
>
> People should AVOID Dyson vacuums unless they like pissing their money
> away. They work no better than any other cyclone vacuum available at
> Walmart or Target. No difference. No Advances. Simple 19th century
> soot collection.
>
> They are, however, have the unique benefit of being possessed of superb
> design, and are, as such works of functional art worthy of buying simply
> for that reason. But a frugal person would avoid Dysons as if it were a
> plague carrier. We won't mention the abominable ergonomics of some of
> his designs, as they are self-evident and glaring. Dyson = Hype.
>
> Save money-- buy a Hoover or a Bissel or a Snorch.
>
> .max
>
Horseshit yerself,

If it wasn't for Dyson we would still be getting ripped off for hundreds
of dollars of bags and filters a year and putting up with poorly
designed crap that blows most of the dust back into the air along with
the mould and crap that grows inside the non replaceable filter paths
inside. Look how much effort the American vacuum manufacturers put into
killing the cyclone vacuum market in America only to have their market
share destroyed once people found out how good they are and how long
they last.

If you think a Dyson is so bad , Hoover your carpets with the best vac
you can find, then go over it again with a Dyson, you will be surprised
how much extra crap they will pick up. I expect you think that piece of
crap Oreck sells is a good deal.

== 4 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 27 2008 6:01 am
From: salty@dog.com

On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 12:21:23 GMT, Archon <Chipbee40_SpamNo@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>max wrote:
>> In article <49058ae0$0$502$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk>,
>> andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) wrote:
>>
>>> In article <af7Nk.51798$XT1.33709@bignews5.bellsouth.net>,
>>> E Z Peaces <cash@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>>> john d hamilton wrote:
>>>>> This photo shows the black very thin plastic type filter that sits facing
>>>>> the fan on a household Hitachi CV-SF8 vacuum cleaner.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=11rxdm0&s=4
>>>>>
>>>>> Immediately behind this sits a plastic frame with a nylon fine mesh filter
>>>>> and sitting in this frame is a black high density sponge filter. (doing a
>>>>> search on this sponge filter, it's called a Mesh-Urethane filter).
>>>>>
>>>>> http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=6gv5tl&s=4
>>>>>
>>>>> This Mesh-Urethane filter is on the *right* side of this photo, the black
>>>>> one on the left is the reverse of the very thin plastic type filter
>>>>> referred
>>>>> to above.
>>>>>
>>>>> This Mesh-Urethane filter really restricts the air flow. Its a bit better
>>>>> when I wash it out under the tap with soap and water but soon seems to
>>>>> clog
>>>>> up again. I find it works quite well if I relace it entirely with a piece
>>>>> of
>>>>> soft tissue toilet paper, and keep changing the paper and all the debris
>>>>> that builds up behind it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now the question here is what exactly is this very thin plastic type
>>>>> filter
>>>>> (if indeed it is actually a filter) doing? It's the one on the left in
>>>>> the
>>>>> second photo. It seems to have microscopic slits in its surface, but when
>>>>> I
>>>>> wash it, it wont pass water through it, which surely it would if its some
>>>>> kind of filter? It's a thin flexible piece of plastic sheet, and seems
>>>>> really strong. Almost like a sheet of carbon fibre.
>>>> The first stage is supposed to get rid of almost all the dust by
>>>> centrifugal force. If the air then clogs a filter frequently, I wonder
>>>> if something is wrong with the first stage.
>>> If you want a cyclone cleaner that works, you're really going
>>> to struggle with anything other that a Dyson. Dyson have a stack
>>> of patents relating to designing cyclones small enough to be part
>>> of a vacuum cleaner which actually work, that's it's pretty
>>> impossible for other manufacturers to come close. His original
>>> dual cyclone patent expired which is why you now see other
>>> manufacturers doing those, but they're stuck with following all
>>> his advances 25 years behind.
>>
>> horse shit. utter horseshit. Dyson's vacuums are devoid of any genuine
>> innovation whatsoever. His patents are as meritous as AOL's attempt to
>> patent the smiley face emoticon. He adapted the cyclone filter to a
>> carpet sucker. whoopie. wow!!! His innovation has a great more to do
>> with the advances made in material science making available to him the
>> possibility of doing something different. . A Dyson-style vacuum made
>> in 1950 would have been beyond the means of 75% of consumers.
>>
>> His brushless air jet models are polycarbonate frauds.
>>
>> People should AVOID Dyson vacuums unless they like pissing their money
>> away. They work no better than any other cyclone vacuum available at
>> Walmart or Target. No difference. No Advances. Simple 19th century
>> soot collection.
>>
>> They are, however, have the unique benefit of being possessed of superb
>> design, and are, as such works of functional art worthy of buying simply
>> for that reason. But a frugal person would avoid Dysons as if it were a
>> plague carrier. We won't mention the abominable ergonomics of some of
>> his designs, as they are self-evident and glaring. Dyson = Hype.
>>
>> Save money-- buy a Hoover or a Bissel or a Snorch.
>>
>> .max
>>
>Horseshit yerself,
>
>If it wasn't for Dyson we would still be getting ripped off for hundreds
>of dollars of bags and filters a year and putting up with poorly
>designed crap that blows most of the dust back into the air along with
>the mould and crap that grows inside the non replaceable filter paths
>inside. Look how much effort the American vacuum manufacturers put into
>killing the cyclone vacuum market in America only to have their market
>share destroyed once people found out how good they are and how long
>they last.
>
>If you think a Dyson is so bad , Hoover your carpets with the best vac
>you can find, then go over it again with a Dyson, you will be surprised
>how much extra crap they will pick up.

Then try the same phony sales fluff experiment and reverse the order.
Use the Dyson first and then the competitor. The second machine will
ALWAYS pick up some more stuff.

== 5 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 27 2008 7:45 am
From: Norminn

clipped

>
>
> If you think a Dyson is so bad , Hoover your carpets with the best vac
> you can find, then go over it again with a Dyson, you will be
> surprised how much extra crap they will pick up. I expect you think
> that piece of crap Oreck sells is a good deal.

We had a vacuum salesman call a couple of years ago, and hubby set up
appt. for demo. Don't recall the brand, but it was very expensive.
Salesman did the filter paper trick to show how dirty the carpet was.
When he finished his talk, I asked him for a clean piece of filter
paper. I put the clean filter paper over the nozzle of my OLD
Electrolux; got the same result as his fancy new machine.

== 6 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 27 2008 6:52 am
From: Archon

Norminn wrote:
> clipped
>
>>
>>
>> If you think a Dyson is so bad , Hoover your carpets with the best vac
>> you can find, then go over it again with a Dyson, you will be
>> surprised how much extra crap they will pick up. I expect you think
>> that piece of crap Oreck sells is a good deal.
>
> We had a vacuum salesman call a couple of years ago, and hubby set up
> appt. for demo. Don't recall the brand, but it was very expensive.
> Salesman did the filter paper trick to show how dirty the carpet was.
> When he finished his talk, I asked him for a clean piece of filter
> paper. I put the clean filter paper over the nozzle of my OLD
> Electrolux; got the same result as his fancy new machine.
My argument still applies, Dyson broke the bag/filter ripoff no matter
what you say.

Bags were awful, they ripped, blocked, smelled bad and the phony ripoff
copies were everywhere.

I bought a Dyson DC01 back in early 90's in the UK, brought it over to
the States in 2001, run it off my 240v supply, never broke down, cleans
as good as new, only thing I've ever replaced was the brush bar.

I went through 2 Hoovers, a Panasonic, (that lasted about 3 months
before the bearings on the brush bar burned out with wrapped hair in the
3 years previous to buying the Dyson.

== 7 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 27 2008 8:39 am
From: "BigWallop"

"Andrew Gabriel" <andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4905d619$0$502$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk...
> In article <oIjNk.25038$HE4.24918@fe04.news.easynews.com>,
> Archon <Chipbee40_SpamNo@yahoo.com> writes:
> > My argument still applies, Dyson broke the bag/filter ripoff no matter
> > what you say.
>
> It came to light (in the patent trial I think) that Hoover did
> consider buying the patent in the early days, but that was to
> prevent cyclone technology coming to the vacuum cleaner industry
> because they were concerned at loss of revenue from consumables
> (bags, filters).
>
> > Bags were awful, they ripped, blocked, smelled bad and the phony ripoff
> > copies were everywhere.
>
> The most obvious problem with them is that they can only work
> if they block. If they don't block, that's because they aren't
> trapping the dust (and that happens too). A cyclone removes
> the dust from the air-path.
>

The cyclone action only moves air in a circular motion inside a chamber.
The dust and other small particles are actually caught by the replaceable
filter traps in the path of the air flow. The cyclone does not drop its
dirt payload on its way round the vacuum cleaner. The dirt falls off the
filter when it reaches a weight heavy enough to allow it to fall off, or you
take the filter out and clean it before it reaches that stage.

How the cyclone action works is very simple. You make a vacuum cleaner as
normal, with a lower pressure atmosphere action at the head unit (the bit on
the carpet that picks the dirt up). You draw the air / dirt mixture into a
chamber that contains a tapered tube. The top of the taper is four times
the diameter of the bottom. When air is blown across the top of the tapered
tube (commonly called the wide end), it causes the air in the tube to spin.

When the air begins to spin, it creates areas of high and low pressure in
the chamber surrounding the tube. The dirty air being sucked in is at high
pressure near the top of the cyclone chamber. Once the spin motion starts,
the air lower down in the cyclone chamber goes to a lower pressure, where
the dirt is to heavy to be lifted back out by the air motion (commonly known
as the narrow end of the tube). So the dirt stays in the chamber. Well,
most of the heavier bits do. The tiny particles are caught by replaceable
filters that you have to buy seperately, just like the old style bags.

The filters need to be replaced just as often, if not more frequently, as
would have replaced a bag in any other vacuum cleaner. But the big bits of
crap getting caught in that chamber, really looks impressive, don'it. Where
it's all actually a load of ballox.

It's not rocket science.

<<<snipped>>>

== 8 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 27 2008 9:14 am
From: andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel)

In article <ihlNk.78335$E41.14145@text.news.virginmedia.com>,
"BigWallop" <spam.guard@good-spam-guard.com> writes:
>
> The cyclone action only moves air in a circular motion inside a chamber.
> The dust and other small particles are actually caught by the replaceable
> filter traps in the path of the air flow. The cyclone does not drop its
> dirt payload on its way round the vacuum cleaner. The dirt falls off the
> filter when it reaches a weight heavy enough to allow it to fall off, or you
> take the filter out and clean it before it reaches that stage.

<snip>

You are describing a (non-cylone) canister vacuum cleaner (such as
a Henry or a Vax in the UK), or something that might have been
marketed to make you think it was a cyclone, but doesn't actually
use cyclonic separation (of which there are a number of non-Dyson
products made to look a bit like Dysons).

> It's not rocket science.

No it's not, but you might want to go and read up on cyclonic
separation, so you understand the difference between that and what
you posted.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

== 9 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 27 2008 9:15 am
From: Archon

BigWallop wrote:

>
> The cyclone action only moves air in a circular motion inside a chamber.
> The dust and other small particles are actually caught by the replaceable
> filter traps in the path of the air flow. The cyclone does not drop its
> dirt payload on its way round the vacuum cleaner. The dirt falls off the
> filter when it reaches a weight heavy enough to allow it to fall off, or you
> take the filter out and clean it before it reaches that stage.
>
> How the cyclone action works is very simple. You make a vacuum cleaner as
> normal, with a lower pressure atmosphere action at the head unit (the bit on
> the carpet that picks the dirt up). You draw the air / dirt mixture into a
> chamber that contains a tapered tube. The top of the taper is four times
> the diameter of the bottom. When air is blown across the top of the tapered
> tube (commonly called the wide end), it causes the air in the tube to spin.
>
> When the air begins to spin, it creates areas of high and low pressure in
> the chamber surrounding the tube. The dirty air being sucked in is at high
> pressure near the top of the cyclone chamber. Once the spin motion starts,
> the air lower down in the cyclone chamber goes to a lower pressure, where
> the dirt is to heavy to be lifted back out by the air motion (commonly known
> as the narrow end of the tube). So the dirt stays in the chamber. Well,
> most of the heavier bits do. The tiny particles are caught by replaceable
> filters that you have to buy seperately, just like the old style bags.
>
> The filters need to be replaced just as often, if not more frequently, as
> would have replaced a bag in any other vacuum cleaner. But the big bits of
> crap getting caught in that chamber, really looks impressive, don'it. Where
> it's all actually a load of ballox.
>
> It's not rocket science.
>
> <<<snipped>>>
>
I think not, the principle was developed I believe from watching
industrial silo dust removal. The filter does not work that hard, if as
another poster stated, you use it for garage/plaster/woodwork sanding
clean up with very fine dust, the dust does not get to the filter, it
stays in the washable bin (another Dyson innovation).

And Yes, American household appliances, from vacuums to kettles to power
tools are dramatically underpowered.

== 10 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 27 2008 9:29 am
From: "BigWallop"

"Andrew Gabriel" <andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4905e8c9$0$502$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk...
> In article <ihlNk.78335$E41.14145@text.news.virginmedia.com>,
> "BigWallop" <spam.guard@good-spam-guard.com> writes:
> >
<<< snipped >>>
> > It's not rocket science.
>
> No it's not, but you might want to go and read up on cyclonic
> separation, so you understand the difference between that and what
> you posted.
>
> Andrew Gabriel
>

Here's a link to the Wiki Pages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclonic_separation that describes how a
cyclone works. I think it is as close to what I explained as nought in it.
And, honestly, I wrote all my rant from memory.

== 11 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 27 2008 10:38 am
From: E Z Peaces

Archon wrote:

>>
> I think not, the principle was developed I believe from watching
> industrial silo dust removal. The filter does not work that hard, if as
> another poster stated, you use it for garage/plaster/woodwork sanding
> clean up with very fine dust, the dust does not get to the filter, it
> stays in the washable bin (another Dyson innovation).

A given cyclone design will catch particles down to a certain size
because it's a particle's mass that causes it to stick to the side
instead of exiting with the air. That's why you need the paper filter.
Probably the cyclones in some vacuums won't catch particles as small
as other cyclone vacuums.

I have a cheap vacuum cleaner that uses a filter I can knock clean when
I empty the bin, followed by a paper filter. I've never had to replace
the paper one.
>
> And Yes, American household appliances, from vacuums to kettles to power
> tools are dramatically underpowered.

Some UK kettles have 3kW elements, while some US kettles have 1.75kW
elements. So it takes 45 seconds to boil a cup of water in the US and
26 seconds in the UK.

Standard US outlets are for 15 amps. Most homes use 20-amp wiring. If
enough Americans were impatient, there would be 20-amp kettles, which
could heat the water in 33 seconds.

It appears that the most common size of Dyson vacuum in the UK is 1400
W. Some US vacuums use roughly that much. If US vacuums really aren't
as good, the problem must be something else.

== 12 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 27 2008 10:52 am
From: Archon

E Z Peaces wrote:
> Archon wrote:
>
>>>
>> I think not, the principle was developed I believe from watching
>> industrial silo dust removal. The filter does not work that hard, if
>> as another poster stated, you use it for garage/plaster/woodwork
>> sanding clean up with very fine dust, the dust does not get to the
>> filter, it stays in the washable bin (another Dyson innovation).
>
> A given cyclone design will catch particles down to a certain size
> because it's a particle's mass that causes it to stick to the side
> instead of exiting with the air. That's why you need the paper filter.
> Probably the cyclones in some vacuums won't catch particles as small as
> other cyclone vacuums.
>
> I have a cheap vacuum cleaner that uses a filter I can knock clean when
> I empty the bin, followed by a paper filter. I've never had to replace
> the paper one.
>>
>> And Yes, American household appliances, from vacuums to kettles to
>> power tools are dramatically underpowered.
>
> Some UK kettles have 3kW elements, while some US kettles have 1.75kW
> elements. So it takes 45 seconds to boil a cup of water in the US and
> 26 seconds in the UK.
>
> Standard US outlets are for 15 amps. Most homes use 20-amp wiring. If
> enough Americans were impatient, there would be 20-amp kettles, which
> could heat the water in 33 seconds.
>
> It appears that the most common size of Dyson vacuum in the UK is 1400
> W. Some US vacuums use roughly that much. If US vacuums really aren't
> as good, the problem must be something else.
HSN were advertising some lousy vacuum based on its 1400W or wattever
(pun) power, the power it consumes probably totally unrelated to the
work done.

== 13 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 27 2008 12:53 pm
From: "Martin"

"BigWallop" <spam.guard@good-spam-guard.com> wrote in message
news:_wkNk.78313$E41.66284@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>
> "Archon" <Chipbee40_SpamNo@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:oIjNk.25038$HE4.24918@fe04.news.easynews.com...
>> Norminn wrote:
>> > clipped
>> >
> <<< snipped >>>
>
> So, it's true then. All vacuum cleaners suck?
>
> hee hee :-)
>

Yep - but some are better sucking suckers than others.

Let's hear it for Sebo....

Our 1995 Sebo is still going strong. All the tools "on board", mega-easy to
change bags (and they're cheap enough on ebay), mega-long mains cable,
quickly dismantleable (though not necessary), and no dust containers to wash
out.

The only maintenance it needs? Every couple years or so, we unclip the
roller-brush and remove the long threads.

Yep - Sebo every time....

--
Martin

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Where are YOU cutting back?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a47415e5933d30b8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 27 2008 6:44 am
From: Modat22

On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 08:57:15 -0700 (PDT), Too_Many_Tools
<too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote:

>In tough times consumers tend to cut back...so where are you cutting
>back, reprioritizing resources, whatever to make that dollar go
>farther?
>
>I am also posting this in the metal and wood working groups to hear
>how those who pursue the hobby are allotting their resources.
>
>Thanks
>
>TMT

Well I built a sawmill 3 years ago so wood isn't a problem for me. The
economy has actually made me get into my hobby more. I find that I
stay home after work most of the time now and just build things to
keep my mind off the economy and job fears.

Saying that though, if the economy gets worse and I loose my job I'll
probably have to sell my place, get an apartment and get rid of my
tools since I won't have a place to store them.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Oct 26 2008 6:50 am
From: Jeff

Sac Dave wrote:
> "Morris Dovey" <mrdovey@iedu.com> wrote in message
> news:49034a4d$0$33227$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>> Too_Many_Tools wrote:
>>> In tough times consumers tend to cut back...so where are you cutting
>>> back, reprioritizing resources, whatever to make that dollar go
>>> farther?
>> I'm not cutting back. Instead I'm working to help people cut forward.
>>
>> It /does/ take a bit of thinking about... :)
>>
>> --
>> Morris Dovey
>> DeSoto Solar
>> DeSoto, Iowa USA
>> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
>
> If you are into solar What should a 5.96 KW AC system cost . 30 panels (
> sunpower SPR-225-BLK-U) one inverter ( sunpower SPR-7000m) We just
> started looking into Solar because of high electric cost in our area (
> Pacific Gas & Electric) Just curious if you would have any Idea.

Wait a bit. You can do solar AC without ever generating electricity.
PV is expensive. You can ask in alt.solar.pv for Photovoltaic questions.
There's some technology (printed PV) there also that may hit the market
some day at 1$/watt.

Jeff
>
>

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 27 2008 1:55 pm
From: wfhabicher@hotmail.com

On Oct 25, 7:24 pm, "Buddy Matlosz" <amatl...@optonline.net> wrote:
> In your case, you can downsize to Just_Enough_Tools.
>
> B.
>
> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:68bba63c-348a-4da5-a10c-26d31e952c5b@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> > In tough times consumers tend to cut back...so where are you cutting
> > back, reprioritizing resources, whatever to make that dollar go
> > farther?
>
> > I am also posting this in the metal and wood working groups to hear
> > how those who pursue the hobby are allotting their resources.
>
> > Thanks
>
> > TMT

Well, last year we had a high efficiency natural gas furnace
installed; 94% vs 64% efficiency. Two years ago we increased the
insulation from 6" to 15 1/2" in 1200 sq. ft. attic. Had the front
thermopanes replaced... They'd begun to fog up in the evenings during
winter. The walls have 6" fibreglas plus 1" styrofoam and 4" bricks
already. The windows are still tight. Exterior doors were all
replaced with metal doors and urethane foam insulation including
magnetic door seals. Installed low energy "curly" bulbs in the
workshop. Sold all US investments 2 years ago.

My better half is very frugal by nature so no prob. there. We
traveled less this summer but not because of gas prices.

Apart from that we already own most conveniences, thus no changes
you'd notice. Shop projects are sporadic at best as is machinery
acquisition.. Material costs are minimal.

Wolfgang

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Federal Reserve Cuts Interest Rates, but a 'Floor' Lets Companies Keep
Credit Card Interest High
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4f81570866a61e97?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 27 2008 10:08 am
From: "JonquilJan"

Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6mkvjcFhfj8hU1@mid.individual.net...
> JonquilJan <ward39@imcnet.net> wrote
> > Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
> >> JonquilJan <ward39@imcnet.net> wrote
> >>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
> >>>> JonquilJan <ward39@imcnet.net> wrote
>
> >>>>> It isn't a 'floor' that is keeping my Credit Card APR high - it is
because
> >>>>> they base their rates on LIBOR - the interst rate in LONDON banks.
>
> >>>> No it isnt LONDON banks.
>
> >>>>> Ticks me off.
>
> >>> Okay what is LIBOR then.
>
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIBOR
>
> >>> I had a friend, who is a financial advisor, research it for me.
> >>> She printed out results from a Google search - comparing
> >>> LIBOR and Prime Rate. And it clearly identified LIBOR as
> >>> from London banks.
>
> >> It may well have had the word London in it, but it isnt London banks.
>
> > I have computer problems and cannot access any web sites - can get my
> > email and newsgroups - the web site address you posted is not
> > available to me at the moment. So could you please enlighten me as
> > to what LIBOR is - if not connected to London banks.
>
> That site says
>
> The London Interbank Offered Rate (or LIBOR, pronounced /'la?b?r/) is a
daily reference rate based on the interest rates
> at which banks offer to lend unsecured funds to other banks in the London
wholesale money market (or interbank market).
> LIBOR will be slightly higher than the London Interbank Bid Rate (LIBID),
the rate at which banks are prepared to accept
> deposits. It is roughly comparable to the U.S. Federal funds rate.
>
>
Thanks Ron. Yes that is the information I also received on the printout
from the financial advisor. I just don't understand why my CC company uses
that instead of Prime Rate. Well maybe I do - LIBOR is usually higher - and
more volitle - Prime Rate went down - and LIBOR (supposedly) went up. The
person I talked to at the CC company (AT&T) hadn;t a clue - I could tell she
was reading from a copy when she was talking to me.

Just can't seem to get ahead. Perhaps it's the necessity of replacing a car
before I planned - and the heating costs for this winter.

JonquilJan

Learn something new every day
As long as you are learning, you are living
When you stop learning, you start dying

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 27 2008 1:05 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

JonquilJan <ward39@imcnet.net> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> JonquilJan <ward39@imcnet.net> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> JonquilJan <ward39@imcnet.net> wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>> JonquilJan <ward39@imcnet.net> wrote

>>>>>>> It isn't a 'floor' that is keeping my Credit Card APR high - it is because
>>>>>>> they base their rates on LIBOR - the interst rate in LONDON banks.

>>>>>> No it isnt LONDON banks.

>>>>>>> Ticks me off.

>>>>> Okay what is LIBOR then.

>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIBOR

>>>>> I had a friend, who is a financial advisor, research it for me.
>>>>> She printed out results from a Google search - comparing
>>>>> LIBOR and Prime Rate. And it clearly identified LIBOR as
>>>>> from London banks.

>>>> It may well have had the word London in it, but it isnt London banks.

>>> I have computer problems and cannot access any web sites - can get
>>> my email and newsgroups - the web site address you posted is not
>>> available to me at the moment. So could you please enlighten me as
>>> to what LIBOR is - if not connected to London banks.

>> That site says

>> The London Interbank Offered Rate (or LIBOR, pronounced /'la?b?r/)
>> is a daily reference rate based on the interest rates at which banks offer
>> to lend unsecured funds to other banks in the London wholesale money
>> market (or interbank market). LIBOR will be slightly higher than the London
>> Interbank Bid Rate (LIBID), the rate at which banks are prepared to accept
>> deposits. It is roughly comparable to the U.S. Federal funds rate.

> Thanks Ron. Yes that is the information I also received on
> the printout from the financial advisor. I just don't understand
> why my CC company uses that instead of Prime Rate.

Because the interbank market is the source of their funds, not deposits.

> Well maybe I do - LIBOR is usually higher - and more volitle
> - Prime Rate went down - and LIBOR (supposedly) went up.

No supposedly about it. The LIBOR went up because so many
banks were going down or were being bailed out by the govt,
so they were reluctant to lend to other banks, because they
couldnt be sure which ones were about to go down next.

> The person I talked to at the CC company (AT&T) hadn;t a clue
> - I could tell she was reading from a copy when she was talking to me.

Yeah, that level of droid doesnt have a clue about where the operation
they work for gets the money they lend out on credit cards.

> Just can't seem to get ahead.

And that problem is only going to get worse while ever the Libor keeps spiking.

> Perhaps it's the necessity of replacing a car before
> I planned - and the heating costs for this winter.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Which department stores sell Wrangler's?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5aceab7c2e4f59c0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 27 2008 10:55 am
From: James

On Oct 13, 10:43 am, Seerialmom <seerial...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Oct 12, 7:46 pm, James <j0069b...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Went into Kohl's looking to replace my jeans. They have Lee's and
> > Levi's. The Levi's were over $30 and the Lee's were $20. Are prices
> > pretty much the same at other stores or are some store better for
> > buying jeans?
>
> K-Mart does as I recall as does Wal-Mart. Just to save you time and
> because I thought I'd check; their website does have a "where to buy"
> link:
>
> http://wranglerjeansco.wrangler.com/wjc_contact

Thanks. Finally went to WalMart today. They are for sale at $15.50 a
pair.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Do you need Money?? Try this!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e8bf9b1fe3b0f9d4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 27 2008 12:53 pm
From: River

1. Put in a Free Advertisement.
2. Get others to put in Free Advertisements.
3. Get paid!!

http://www.hits2u.com/?643698

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Maximizing Welfare
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9949fc83cc11aec3?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 27 2008 1:33 pm
From: "Bruce C. Miller"

What US state can a single male with no kids collect the most welfare?
Food stamps and other perks are a plus as well. Another consideration
is any maximum limits on the amount of time you can receive payments
or any red tape they put you through to get it.

Or, if anyone knows of a state-by-state comparison of welfare
benefits, I'd also be interested in that too.

Thanks for any info.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 27 2008 1:39 pm
From: "catalpa"

"Bruce C. Miller" <bm3719@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bd7d4b8a-69eb-4970-b656-9b85c069727c@e2g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> What US state can a single male with no kids collect the most welfare?
> Food stamps and other perks are a plus as well. Another consideration
> is any maximum limits on the amount of time you can receive payments
> or any red tape they put you through to get it.
>
> Or, if anyone knows of a state-by-state comparison of welfare
> benefits, I'd also be interested in that too.
>
> Thanks for any info.

Why limit yourself to a single state? For years there have been people
collecting welfare in both New York and New Jersey. Cheap ride on the PATH
train to go back and forth.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: 1 in 25,000 People are Jewish, and 7 in 10 Billionaires...
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/df765f9feef4419b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 27 2008 1:52 pm
From: count 2

It goes back to the bible where Christians were not allowed to lend
money.

==============================================================================

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Tuesday, October 28, 2008

26 new messages in 8 topics - digest

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