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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Bush To Let Illegal Aliens Get $40 Digital TV Coupons
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f941e4a655a77d3f?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 12:16 am
From: Anthony Matonak
Audie Murphy's Ghost wrote:
> In article <4711c828$0$16482$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>, Anthony Matonak wrote:
>> Well, walls alone aren't the answer. You also need land mines,
>> electronic surveillance and guys with guns. No wall, all by itself,
>> is going to keep anyone out of anything. It's just there to slow them
>> down enough that the guys with guns can discourage them further.
>
> So now you want to blow people up and shoot them for crossing a border.
> How North Korean of you.
How much problem does North Korea have with illegal aliens crossing
the border?
Anthony
== 2 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 12:22 am
From: "Rick"
"Rob Jensen" <ShutUpRob@aol.com> wrote in message
news:vjb5h3h69ql0btih6627nttp6djuf2lqrm@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 13:17:55 -1000, "Jerry Okamura"
> <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Thanatos" <atropos@mac.com> wrote in message
>>news:atropos-B0C623.18362910102007@news.giganews.com...
>>> In article <otsog352slo2tl336l20k1dmg4gj1s6mj1@4ax.com>,
>>> Rob Jensen <ShutUpRob@aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 02:04:41 -0400, Thanatos <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >In article <rh0mg3dv69n0nnj27lqbsrh2t450b7eiuv@4ax.com>,
>>>> > Rob Jensen <ShutUpRob@aol.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 12:32:57 -0400, William Grosvenor
>>>> >> <billgruber@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > I say that we vote for Fred Dalton Thompson and return
>>>> >> > to traditional American family values.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> But aren't conservatives supposed to hate Hollywood and
>>>> >> everything it stands for?
>>>> >
>>>> >No.
>>>>
>>>> Well then, why do they?
>>>
>>> Some do, some don't.
>>
>>Actually, it is one of those love/hate relationships I would think. We
>>all
>>love to go to a good movie, regardless of what the actors polictical
>>biases
>>are. We just don't like it when they use their fame and money, to back
>>some
>>party or their ideas, which we do not approve of. "If" for instance,
>>these
>>actors were mostly conservative or republican, then I would imagine that
>>democrats or liberals would be saying the same thing about these Hollywood
>>types, that republicans and conservates are now saying about them.
>
> Me flaming liberal. Me likee Gerald McRaney, Ricky Schroeder, Thomas
> Haden Church, Shannen Doherty, noted whackjob (not for his politics,
> but because of his ADD) James Woods, Janine Turner, Patricia Heaton
> and many others.
>
> You know why?
>
> Unlike neocons, they're true conservatives -- they don't try to shove
> flat-out lies down everybody's throats. For the most part, they
> espouse their principles in a common-senseical way, not treating those
> that disagree with them as traitors or terrorists. (Janine Turner's a
> little on the twitchy side, BID.) So while I tend to disagree with
> them, I think they really want to acknowledge and celebrate that we
> all live in the same country.
>
> You want to know why neocons are fucking thing up for conservatives in
> Hollywood -- read Bruce Willis's recent interview in Vanity Fair. He's
> essentially entirely alienated from conservatism due to the neocons'
> hijacking of the Republican party and turning it into the Repugnican
> party (my paraphrase). He's of the fiscal-conservative/socially
> liberal moderate Republican type and I think it's flat-out
> unconscionable what the Repugnicans have done to alienate him and
> other real conservatives with their fascist demands for absolute
> lockstep in espousing political beliefs.
>
> -- Rob
> --
> LORELAI: I am so done with plans. I am never, ever making one again.
> It never works. I spend the day obsessing over why it didn't work
> and what I could've done differently. I'm analyzing all my shortcomings
> when all I really need to be doing is vowing to never, ever make a plan
> ever again, which I'm doing now, having once again been the innocent
> victim of my own stupid plans. God, I need some coffee.
Some would say that those who use the term NeoCon is code for Jew and your
showing some anti-Semitism hate.
== 3 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 12:26 am
From: "Rick"
"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:47129667$0$15370$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
> "Thanatos" <atropos@mac.com> wrote in message
> news:atropos-E4164D.15112014102007@news.giganews.com...
>> In article <47125a29$0$4988$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
>> "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>> "Thanatos" <atropos@mac.com> wrote in message
>>> news:atropos-D73048.19062613102007@news.giganews.com...
>>> > In article <5ncm9aFhpimdU1@mid.individual.net>,
>>> > "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Rick <videojockey1a@yahoo.comzzzz> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> > Build the Fence!
>>> >>
>>> >> They'd just do an end run around it, like the Cubans do.
>>> >
>>> > The reason it works for the Cubans is that once they make it to U.S.
>>> > soil, the law says they get to stay.
>>>
>>> Jumping ahead of the line when they do that?
>>
>> I don't know if they get to become citizens or not. But they get to stay
>> here as foreign residents at a minimum.
>
> And what is the difference between Cubans "jumping ahead of the line" and
> those illegals who are in this country already, "jumping ahead of the
> line"?
It's part of a program President Kennedy or Johnson put in place for the
bang up job they did in the Bay of Pigs. And every President as upheld that
policy ever since.
== 4 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 12:29 am
From: "Rod Speed"
Rick <videojockey1a@yahoo.comzzzz> wrote:
> "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:47129667$0$15370$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>
>> "Thanatos" <atropos@mac.com> wrote in message
>> news:atropos-E4164D.15112014102007@news.giganews.com...
>>> In article <47125a29$0$4988$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
>>> "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Thanatos" <atropos@mac.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:atropos-D73048.19062613102007@news.giganews.com...
>>>>> In article <5ncm9aFhpimdU1@mid.individual.net>,
>>>>> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Rick <videojockey1a@yahoo.comzzzz> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Build the Fence!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They'd just do an end run around it, like the Cubans do.
>>>>>
>>>>> The reason it works for the Cubans is that once they make it to
>>>>> U.S. soil, the law says they get to stay.
>>>>
>>>> Jumping ahead of the line when they do that?
>>>
>>> I don't know if they get to become citizens or not. But they get to
>>> stay here as foreign residents at a minimum.
>>
>> And what is the difference between Cubans "jumping ahead of the
>> line" and those illegals who are in this country already, "jumping
>> ahead of the line"?
> It's part of a program President Kennedy or Johnson put in place for the bang up job they did in the Bay of Pigs.
No it isnt, it preceeded that.
> And every President as upheld that policy ever since.
== 5 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 12:32 am
From: "Rick"
"Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:471199f7$0$11578$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
> Rick <videojockey1a@yahoo.comzzzz> wrote:
>> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:5ncm9aFhpimdU1@mid.individual.net...
>>> Rick <videojockey1a@yahoo.comzzzz> wrote:
>>>> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:5nabtmFh94b9U1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>> Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote
>>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>>> Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Trouble is that there are no 'solutions' that will actually
>>>>>>>>>>> do that.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There is "always" a solution.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nope.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then if there is no solution, learn to live with the problem?
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or just deal with the parts of the problem that are feasible to
>>>>>>> deal with.
>>>>>
>>>>>> What parts of the problem is that?
>>>>>
>>>>> One obvious area that can be dealth with is the anchor baby part of
>>>>> the problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> All that would take is a constitutional amendment and there
>>>>> isnt any doubt that that would get overwhelming support.
>>>>>
>>>>> Most modern first world countrys have binned that stupidity for a
>>>>> long time now.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There "may not be the will", but there is a solution.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nope.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For instance, the government in Mexcio is one big part of the
>>>>>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nope, no govt of mexico can actually do anything about the real
>>>>>>>>> problem, they pump out FAR more kids than the economy can
>>>>>>>>> possibly sustain with decent living standards, so there are
>>>>>>>>> inevitably hordes who notice that the living standards in the
>>>>>>>>> US are much better than in mexico and so they move to US if
>>>>>>>>> they can.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They cannot seem to adopt policies that will actually
>>>>>>>>>> dramatically improve the lives of their citizens.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are no such policys. Even a very draconian approach like
>>>>>>>>> the chinese adopted of forcing most to only have one brat STILL
>>>>>>>>> didnt fix the problem that the living standards in the US are
>>>>>>>>> MUCH better than in china, and so hordes would prefer to leave
>>>>>>>>> china.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> One solution (though I am not saying we should do it) is to
>>>>>>>>>> forcibly change the government in Mexico.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Wont do a damned thing about the fundamental problem.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> what is the "fundamental problem"?
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I told you, they pump out FAR more kids than their economy
>>>>>>> can ever support and thats what produces so many that find
>>>>>>> that moving to the US will improve their personal living
>>>>>>> standards.
>>>>>
>>>>>> you have got to be kidding me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nope.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Societies have managed to take care of their people, regardless of
>>>>>> their birth rate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Have fun listing a single one thats got a birth
>>>>> rate like Mexico has thats actually done that.
>>>>>
>>>>> And like I said, even when china did fix the birth rate problem,
>>>>> that STILL didnt stop the other fundamental problem, that the
>>>>> living standards are STILL so far below what they are in the US
>>>>> that hordes of people STILL want to leave that country and migrate to
>>>>> another one, and that many of them are prepared to do that
>>>>> illegally.
>>>>>> While some countries have not.
>>>>>
>>>>> Like the entire third world, which just happens
>>>>> to be where the illegals are mostly coming from.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And it clearly didnt work with Iraq anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No one can say it will not work in Iraq.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Corse anyone with a clue can say that.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Only someone who knows what will happen in the futrre can do that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wrong. Its perfectly possible to notice that full civil war doesnt
>>>>> just stop by
>>>>> itself and that what the US is doing in Iraq isnt going to stop it
>>>>> any time soon.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All we can say is that it is not working yet.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> And it wont, you watch. Replacing the govt produced the
>>>>>>> inevitable result, a full civil war, and those dont just go away
>>>>>>> by wishing that would happen.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some have lasted for hundreds of years effectively, like with
>>>>>>> Ireland.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yep, and there is no civil war in Ireland now, because the english
>>>>>> did not give up.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nope, because the Irish eventually came to their senses, after
>>>>> CENTURYS. There isnt a shred of evidence that the stupid rag heads
>>>>> in Iraq will be giving up on their civil war any time soon.
>>>
>>>> If you can get the government of Mexico to get rid of most of their
>>>> govt run companies and free up that economy we wouldn't have to
>>>> build a fence.
>>>
>>> Fantasy. The chinese have gone that route and there are STILL hordes
>>> of chinese that would move to any first world country that would
>>> have them.
>>>> Build the Fence!
>>>
>>> They'd just do an end run around it, like the Cubans do.
>
>> But fewer will try and that's a good thing.
>
> Sure, if you're prepare to spend the non trivial amount of money that a
> useful wall would cost.
>
>> But any market reform in Mexico would be better than what they have now.
>
> Wouldnt fix the problem. NAFTA had no effect on the number of illegals.
>
The promise of Amnesty to all those who get hear sure didn't help either but
thanks to talk radio and the grass roots organizations put a stop to that.
And the illegalgrants waving the Mexican flag didn't help their cause either
when they protested that they had a right to come hear illegally.
>
== 6 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 1:29 am
From: "Rick"
"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:471296e5$0$24337$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:5nf9ocFi0mrpU1@mid.individual.net...
>> Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote
>>
>>>>> But any market reform in Mexico would be better than what they have
>>>>> now.
>>
>>>> Wouldnt fix the problem. NAFTA had no effect on the number of illegals.
>>
>>> First of all the comment was "any market reform in Mexico...", it did
>>> not even mention NAFTA.
>>
>> Its a similar economic change.
>
> Why is it "similar"?
>>
>>> Second, while it is true that NAFTA will not fix the problem (it is not
>>> intended to fix the problem), are you going to argue that it won't
>>> "help"?
>>
>> Nope, that while it may well help the economic situation in Mexico,
>> that wont have any effect on the number that still decide that their
>> prospects are much better in the US than back in Mexico.
>>
> Huh? Does it provide jobs for some in Mexico that they would not
> otherwise have, and doesn't that provide them with the incentive not to
> enter this country illegally?
Of course it would the government in Mexico is what the Democrats in the US
want hear with the government running everything but Hollywood.
== 7 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 1:33 am
From: "Rick"
"Audie Murphy's Ghost" <takebackamerica@2008.com> wrote in message
news:141020070229319352%takebackamerica@2008.com...
> In article <5ndpkaFhm336U1@mid.individual.net>, Rod Speed
> <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Audie Murphy's Ghost <takebackamerica@2008.com> wrote:
>> > In article <UumdnYhkCvRlDYzanZ2dnUVZ_uqvnZ2d@comcast.com>, Rick
>> > <videojockey1a@yahoo.comzzzz> wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Audie Murphy's Ghost" <takebackamerica@2008.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:131020071750204047%takebackamerica@2008.com...
>> >>> In article <BJOdnWmJUqLIgozanZ2dnUVZ_quhnZ2d@comcast.com>, Rick
>> >>> <videojockey1a@yahoo.comzzzz> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Build the Fence!
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> That's exactly what Nikita Khrushchev said, and look how well *that*
>> >>> worked out.
>> >>>
>> >>> I guess they knew what they were doing when they named them the "red
>> >>> states."
>> >>
>> >> But Khrushchev was keeping the East Germans from leaving. We just
>> >> want to keep the criminals and terrorists out.
>> >
>> >
>> > No, you don't. You want to keep the Mexicans out, whether they're
>> > crooked or not, whether they work hard or not, whether they contribute
>> > to the tax base or not. If you want to keep the terrorists out, then
>> > where's the wall between the U.S. and Canada? Good luck trying to get
>> > that one built, BTW, as the Canadians won't put up with that shit.
>>
>> They get no say on that if its built on US land.
>
> Sure they do. You think we can do whatever we want, whenever we want,
> without respect to treaty or precedent. There would be fallout all
> over the place -- trade agreements, cultural exchanges, tourism,
> everything.
>
> I wouldn't be surprised if some raving lunatic suggests building a wall
> along the U.S.-Canadian border, too, because some politicians love
> simple ideas, no matter how much they cost or how damned foolish they
> are. They draw votes from simpletons, which is really what all this is
> about.
>
>> > Walls don't work,
>>
>> Have fun explaining the one in Isreal that works fine, dramatically
>> reducing
>> the number who avoid checkpoints between Isreal and Palestine etc.
>
> "Isreal" doesn't have the vast amount of space to defend that the U.S.
> does. The Israeli wall is about 440 miles long, and a third of it
> hasn't even been built yet. It doesn't seem very important to the
> Israelis, either, since construction is at least seven years behind
> schedule. The U.S.-Canadian border is almost 4,000 miles long,
> counting Alaska. There is simply no comparison.
>
> How much of the national budget do you want to spend on these walls?
> How are you going to patrol and maintain them? How are you going to
> pay for all this? And what are you going to do about the coastlines?
> Build seawalls?
>
>> > except to tag those who build them as the debris of
>> > history -- for instance, the Soviets, who built the one in Berlin.
>>
>> It worked too.
>
> The hell it did. Your pals the Soviets cut the flow of people, but it
> cost them a political black eye that lingers to this day. You're
> probably the only one left who still approves of the Berlin Wall.
>
>> > BTW, seen the stories about American farmers whose operations are
>> > being disrupted by the wall? Some of them can no longer get their
>> > livestock to water sources. Since it's a desert, this is somewhat of
>> > a problem -- not that the piss-ant politicians care about that sort of
>> > thing.
>
> I left this in because you ignored it.
I never approved it I just said it worked just like the one on the Mexican
border will work like the one bordering the one on Tijuana worked.
== 8 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 1:36 am
From: "Rick"
"Audie Murphy's Ghost" <takebackamerica@2008.com> wrote in message
news:141020071208562493%takebackamerica@2008.com...
> In article <5ne5s5FhscesU2@mid.individual.net>, Rod Speed
> <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> David Johnston <david@block.net> wrote:
>> > On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 16:00:43 +1000, "Rod Speed"
>> > <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>> Walls don't work,
>> >>
>> >> Have fun explaining the one in Isreal that works fine, dramatically
>> >> reducing the number who avoid checkpoints between Isreal and
>> >> Palestine etc.
>> >
>> > What he should have said was "Walls don't work over frontiers that are
>> > more than a thousand miles long just on land plus gigantic coastlines."
>>
>> Depends entirely on how you define work.
>
> Oh, stop it. You want to define how a wall works? How do you *think*
> a wall works? Is that anywhere in your cut-and-paste macros?
>
>> They still dramatically reduce the number who avoid checkpoints.
>
> "Dramatically reduce." That sounds all Fox Newsy and everything, but
> how about some specifics? Are there any?
>
> And you must have missed the bit about how the Israeli wall is seven
> years behind schedule, and that a third of it hasn't been built. I
> wonder how an unfinished wall can dramatically protect anybody.
It was designed to stop terrorist car bombs in Israel. And ummm haven't
heard any car bombs in Tel Aviv in awhile have you?
== 9 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 1:40 am
From: "Rick"
"Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:47126f12$0$11611$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
> Audie Murphy's Ghost <takebackamerica@2008.com> wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Audie Murphy's Ghost <takebackamerica@2008.com> wrote
>>>> Rick <videojockey1a@yahoo.comzzzz> wrote
>>>>> Audie Murphy's Ghost <takebackamerica@2008.com> wrote
>>>>>> Rick <videojockey1a@yahoo.comzzzz> wrote:
>
>>>>>>> Build the Fence!
>
>>>>>> That's exactly what Nikita Khrushchev said, and look how well *that*
>>>>>> worked out.
>
>>>>>> I guess they knew what they were doing when they named them the "red
>>>>>> states."
>
>>>>> But Khrushchev was keeping the East Germans from leaving.
>>>>> We just want to keep the criminals and terrorists out.
>
>>>> No, you don't. You want to keep the Mexicans out, whether they're
>>>> crooked or not, whether they work hard or not, whether theycontribute
>>>> to the tax base or not. If you want to keep the terrorists out, then
>>>> where's
>>>> the wall between the U.S. and Canada? Good luck trying to get
>>>> that one built, BTW, as the Canadians won't put up with that shit.
>
>>> They get no say on that if its built on US land.
>
>> Sure they do.
>
> Nope, not if its built on US land.
>
>> You think we can do whatever we want, whenever
>> we want, without respect to treaty or precedent.
>
> Yep, if its built on US land.
>
>> There would be fallout all over the place -- trade
>> agreements, cultural exchanges, tourism, everything.
>
> Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed pig ignorant fantasys.
>
>> I wouldn't be surprised if some raving lunatic suggests building a wall
>> along
>> the U.S.-Canadian border, too, because some politicians love simple
>> ideas,
>> no matter how much they cost or how damned foolish they are. They draw
>> votes from simpletons, which is really what all this is about.
>
> Thats always been one of the real downsides of democracy.
>
>>>> Walls don't work,
>
>>> Have fun explaining the one in Isreal that works fine, dramatically
>>> reducing
>>> the number who avoid checkpoints between Isreal and Palestine etc.
>
>> "Isreal" doesn't have the vast amount of space to defend that the U.S.
>> does.
>
> Pity YOU stupidly claimed that walls dont work.
>
>> The Israeli wall is about 440 miles long,
>> and a third of it hasn't even been built yet.
>
> It will be, you watch.
>
>> It doesn't seem very important to the Israelis, either,
>> since construction is at least seven years behind schedule.
>
> Schedules are completely irrelevant.
>
>> The U.S.-Canadian border is almost 4,000 miles long,
>> counting Alaska. There is simply no comparison.
>
> Pity YOU stupidly claimed that walls dont work.
>
>> How much of the national budget do you want to spend on these walls?
>> How are you going to patrol and maintain them? How are you going to
>> pay for all this? And what are you going to do about the coastlines?
>> Build seawalls?
>
> Pity YOU stupidly claimed that walls dont work.
>
>>>> except to tag those who build them as the debris of history
>>>> -- for instance, the Soviets, who built the one in Berlin.
>
>>> It worked too.
>
>> The hell it did.
>
> Corse it did, it dramatically reduced the number of east krauts that
> crossed the border.
>
>> Your pals the Soviets cut the flow of people, but it
>> cost them a political black eye that lingers to this day.
>
> Irrelevant to whether it worked or not.
>
>> You're probably the only one left who still approves of the Berlin Wall.
>
> I never ever said that I approved of it, JUST that it clearly worked.
>
> The fence between north and south korea does too.
>
>>>> BTW, seen the stories about American farmers whose operations are
>>>> being disrupted by the wall? Some of them can no longer get their
>>>> livestock to water sources. Since it's a desert, this is somewhat of
>>>> a problem -- not that the piss-ant politicians care about that sort of
>>>> thing.
>
>> I left this in because you ignored it.
>
> Wasnt relevant to what I chose to comment on, whether walls can work.
>
One way to cut the costs of building the fence is to get illegall aliens to
build it!
Where's the damn Fence!
>
>
== 10 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 2:36 am
From: "Rod Speed"
Rick <videojockey1a@yahoo.comzzzz> wrote:
> "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:471199f7$0$11578$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
>> Rick <videojockey1a@yahoo.comzzzz> wrote:
>>> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:5ncm9aFhpimdU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>> Rick <videojockey1a@yahoo.comzzzz> wrote:
>>>>> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:5nabtmFh94b9U1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>> Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote
>>>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>>>> Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Trouble is that there are no 'solutions' that will actually
>>>>>>>>>>>> do that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There is "always" a solution.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nope.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Then if there is no solution, learn to live with the problem?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Or just deal with the parts of the problem that are feasible to
>>>>>>>> deal with.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What parts of the problem is that?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One obvious area that can be dealth with is the anchor baby part
>>>>>> of the problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All that would take is a constitutional amendment and there
>>>>>> isnt any doubt that that would get overwhelming support.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most modern first world countrys have binned that stupidity for a
>>>>>> long time now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There "may not be the will", but there is a solution.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nope.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For instance, the government in Mexcio is one big part of
>>>>>>>>>>> the problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nope, no govt of mexico can actually do anything about the
>>>>>>>>>> real problem, they pump out FAR more kids than the economy
>>>>>>>>>> can possibly sustain with decent living standards, so there
>>>>>>>>>> are inevitably hordes who notice that the living standards
>>>>>>>>>> in the US are much better than in mexico and so they move to
>>>>>>>>>> US if they can.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> They cannot seem to adopt policies that will actually
>>>>>>>>>>> dramatically improve the lives of their citizens.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There are no such policys. Even a very draconian approach
>>>>>>>>>> like the chinese adopted of forcing most to only have one
>>>>>>>>>> brat STILL didnt fix the problem that the living standards
>>>>>>>>>> in the US are MUCH better than in china, and so hordes would
>>>>>>>>>> prefer to leave china.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> One solution (though I am not saying we should do it) is to
>>>>>>>>>>> forcibly change the government in Mexico.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Wont do a damned thing about the fundamental problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> what is the "fundamental problem"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I told you, they pump out FAR more kids than their economy
>>>>>>>> can ever support and thats what produces so many that find
>>>>>>>> that moving to the US will improve their personal living
>>>>>>>> standards.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> you have got to be kidding me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nope.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Societies have managed to take care of their people, regardless
>>>>>>> of their birth rate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Have fun listing a single one thats got a birth
>>>>>> rate like Mexico has thats actually done that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And like I said, even when china did fix the birth rate problem,
>>>>>> that STILL didnt stop the other fundamental problem, that the
>>>>>> living standards are STILL so far below what they are in the US
>>>>>> that hordes of people STILL want to leave that country and
>>>>>> migrate to another one, and that many of them are prepared to do
>>>>>> that illegally.
>>>>>>> While some countries have not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Like the entire third world, which just happens
>>>>>> to be where the illegals are mostly coming from.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And it clearly didnt work with Iraq anyway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No one can say it will not work in Iraq.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Corse anyone with a clue can say that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Only someone who knows what will happen in the futrre can do
>>>>>>> that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wrong. Its perfectly possible to notice that full civil war
>>>>>> doesnt just stop by
>>>>>> itself and that what the US is doing in Iraq isnt going to stop
>>>>>> it any time soon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> All we can say is that it is not working yet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And it wont, you watch. Replacing the govt produced the
>>>>>>>> inevitable result, a full civil war, and those dont just go
>>>>>>>> away by wishing that would happen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Some have lasted for hundreds of years effectively, like with
>>>>>>>> Ireland.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yep, and there is no civil war in Ireland now, because the
>>>>>>> english did not give up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nope, because the Irish eventually came to their senses, after
>>>>>> CENTURYS. There isnt a shred of evidence that the stupid rag
>>>>>> heads in Iraq will be giving up on their civil war any time soon.
>>>>
>>>>> If you can get the government of Mexico to get rid of most of
>>>>> their govt run companies and free up that economy we wouldn't
>>>>> have to build a fence.
>>>>
>>>> Fantasy. The chinese have gone that route and there are STILL
>>>> hordes of chinese that would move to any first world country that
>>>> would have them.
>>>>> Build the Fence!
>>>>
>>>> They'd just do an end run around it, like the Cubans do.
>>
>>> But fewer will try and that's a good thing.
>>
>> Sure, if you're prepare to spend the non trivial amount of money
>> that a useful wall would cost.
>>
>>> But any market reform in Mexico would be better than what they have
>>> now.
>>
>> Wouldnt fix the problem. NAFTA had no effect on the number of illegals.
> The promise of Amnesty to all those who get hear sure didn't help either
It actually made the problem much worse.
> but thanks to talk radio and the grass roots organizations put a stop to that. And the illegalgrants waving the
> Mexican flag didn't help their cause either when they protested that they had a right to come hear illegally.
There word is here, not hear.
== 11 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 2:37 am
From: "Rod Speed"
Rick <videojockey1a@yahoo.comzzzz> wrote:
> "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:47126f12$0$11611$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
>> Audie Murphy's Ghost <takebackamerica@2008.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Audie Murphy's Ghost <takebackamerica@2008.com> wrote
>>>>> Rick <videojockey1a@yahoo.comzzzz> wrote
>>>>>> Audie Murphy's Ghost <takebackamerica@2008.com> wrote
>>>>>>> Rick <videojockey1a@yahoo.comzzzz> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> Build the Fence!
>>
>>>>>>> That's exactly what Nikita Khrushchev said, and look how well
>>>>>>> *that* worked out.
>>
>>>>>>> I guess they knew what they were doing when they named them the
>>>>>>> "red states."
>>
>>>>>> But Khrushchev was keeping the East Germans from leaving.
>>>>>> We just want to keep the criminals and terrorists out.
>>
>>>>> No, you don't. You want to keep the Mexicans out, whether they're
>>>>> crooked or not, whether they work hard or not, whether
>>>>> theycontribute to the tax base or not. If you want to keep the
>>>>> terrorists out, then where's
>>>>> the wall between the U.S. and Canada? Good luck trying to get
>>>>> that one built, BTW, as the Canadians won't put up with that shit.
>>
>>>> They get no say on that if its built on US land.
>>
>>> Sure they do.
>>
>> Nope, not if its built on US land.
>>
>>> You think we can do whatever we want, whenever
>>> we want, without respect to treaty or precedent.
>>
>> Yep, if its built on US land.
>>
>>> There would be fallout all over the place -- trade
>>> agreements, cultural exchanges, tourism, everything.
>>
>> Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed pig ignorant
>> fantasys.
>>> I wouldn't be surprised if some raving lunatic suggests building a
>>> wall along
>>> the U.S.-Canadian border, too, because some politicians love simple
>>> ideas,
>>> no matter how much they cost or how damned foolish they are. They
>>> draw votes from simpletons, which is really what all this is about.
>>
>> Thats always been one of the real downsides of democracy.
>>
>>>>> Walls don't work,
>>
>>>> Have fun explaining the one in Isreal that works fine, dramatically
>>>> reducing
>>>> the number who avoid checkpoints between Isreal and Palestine etc.
>>
>>> "Isreal" doesn't have the vast amount of space to defend that the
>>> U.S. does.
>>
>> Pity YOU stupidly claimed that walls dont work.
>>
>>> The Israeli wall is about 440 miles long,
>>> and a third of it hasn't even been built yet.
>>
>> It will be, you watch.
>>
>>> It doesn't seem very important to the Israelis, either,
>>> since construction is at least seven years behind schedule.
>>
>> Schedules are completely irrelevant.
>>
>>> The U.S.-Canadian border is almost 4,000 miles long,
>>> counting Alaska. There is simply no comparison.
>>
>> Pity YOU stupidly claimed that walls dont work.
>>
>>> How much of the national budget do you want to spend on these walls?
>>> How are you going to patrol and maintain them? How are you going to
>>> pay for all this? And what are you going to do about the
>>> coastlines? Build seawalls?
>>
>> Pity YOU stupidly claimed that walls dont work.
>>
>>>>> except to tag those who build them as the debris of history
>>>>> -- for instance, the Soviets, who built the one in Berlin.
>>
>>>> It worked too.
>>
>>> The hell it did.
>>
>> Corse it did, it dramatically reduced the number of east krauts that
>> crossed the border.
>>
>>> Your pals the Soviets cut the flow of people, but it
>>> cost them a political black eye that lingers to this day.
>>
>> Irrelevant to whether it worked or not.
>>
>>> You're probably the only one left who still approves of the Berlin
>>> Wall.
>>
>> I never ever said that I approved of it, JUST that it clearly worked.
>>
>> The fence between north and south korea does too.
>>
>>>>> BTW, seen the stories about American farmers whose operations are
>>>>> being disrupted by the wall? Some of them can no longer get their
>>>>> livestock to water sources. Since it's a desert, this is
>>>>> somewhat of a problem -- not that the piss-ant politicians care
>>>>> about that sort of thing.
>>
>>> I left this in because you ignored it.
>>
>> Wasnt relevant to what I chose to comment on, whether walls can work.
> One way to cut the costs of building the fence is to get illegall aliens to build it!
A wall makes a lot more sense than a fence.
> Where's the damn Fence!
Record's stuck.
== 12 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 3:39 am
From: Audie Murphy's Ghost
In article <471312d8$0$20631$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>, Anthony Matonak
<anthonym40@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
> Audie Murphy's Ghost wrote:
> > In article <4711c828$0$16482$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>, Anthony Matonak
> > wrote:
> >> Well, walls alone aren't the answer. You also need land mines,
> >> electronic surveillance and guys with guns. No wall, all by itself,
> >> is going to keep anyone out of anything. It's just there to slow them
> >> down enough that the guys with guns can discourage them further.
> >
> > So now you want to blow people up and shoot them for crossing a border.
> > How North Korean of you.
>
> How much problem does North Korea have with illegal aliens crossing
> the border?
Gee, that's funny. Do you do parties?
== 13 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 3:41 am
From: Audie Murphy's Ghost
In article <5ngqn4FhqnfuU1@mid.individual.net>, Rod Speed
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
> Record's stuck.
*You're* criticizing somebody for sounding like a stuck record? Jesus!
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Why does olive oil & vinnegar (mixed) need to be refrigerated anyway?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/cbc77de31f1e4169?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 12:31 am
From: "Rod Speed"
Goomba38 <Goomba38@comcast.net> wrote:
> Rod Speed wrote:
>> Goomba38 <Goomba38@comcast.net> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>
>>>>> Why must I refrigerate a mix of that which
>>>>> doesn't itself need to be refrigerated?
>>
>>>> Essentially because the mixing will normally end up contaminating
>>>> the mixture, if only because the container wont be sterile.
>>
>>> They technically weren't sterile beforehand either.
>>
>> The containers they came in were near enough.
> Not nearly...clean is a far cry from "sterile"
They're pretty close to sterile in practice.
> which is what I was responding to.
== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 12:32 am
From: "Rod Speed"
GreenieLeBrun <GreenieLeBrun@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Rod Speed wrote:
>> Goomba38 <Goomba38@comcast.net> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>
>>>>> Why must I refrigerate a mix of that which
>>>>> doesn't itself need to be refrigerated?
>>
>>>> Essentially because the mixing will normally end up contaminating
>>>> the mixture, if only because the container wont be sterile.
>>
>>> They technically weren't sterile beforehand either.
>>
>> The containers they came in were near enough.
>
> Sterility (from a microbiological view)is like virginity it either is
> or it isn't no in between.
Wrong with new containers for those components.
== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 12:35 am
From: "Rod Speed"
GreenieLeBrun <GreenieLeBrun@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Goomba38 wrote:
>> Ron Peterson wrote:
>>> On Oct 14, 10:18 pm, Jeanette Guire <jeanettegu...@sbcglobal.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Neither olive oil nor vinnegar need to be refrigerated; yet when
>>>> mixed (as in home-made salad dressing), the recipes all ask for it
>>>> to be refrigerated (where it congeals to a gooey mess).
>>>
>>>> What is different about olive oil + vinnegar + a few spices & salt
>>>> from a microbial culture standpoint?
>>>
>>> The bacteria need to be in water to live and the oil provides the
>>> food for them to grow.
>>
>> Bacteria do not need water to survive.
>> That said, I'd be curious if this is just habit or has anyone
>> actually done study of whether the mixed oil/vinegar require
>> chilling to keep bacterial load in check? What other ingredients are
>> added tht might introduce higher risks?
>
> Microorganisms such as bacteria and fungi (including yeasts) require a
> certain level of "Available Water" to metabolise and grow. Properly
> made jams do not have sufficient "Available Water" to permit
> microbial growth.
> Fungi and bacteria can grow (usually anaerobically) at an oil/water
> interface an this causes immense problems when water gets in to fuel
> storages causing the build up of gunge that can disable jet engines
> (most embarrising at 20,000 feet when all engines cut out).
The problem with that theory is that the dressing sold ready to use already
has that interface and doesnt require refrigeration until its opened.
> The question is what bacteria are able to grow at the vinegar/oil
> interface? My guess would be very few medically important
> microorganisms if it is good quality vinegar.
> Either make the dressing up in small batches and discard the unused portion or keep it in the fridge and either zap it
> in the microwave or warm it up with warm water before use.
== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 4:02 am
From: Daniel MacKay
> They're pretty close to sterile in practice.
You're not listening. Either a container is sterile - that is, a can,
or a jar with an airtight seal, and has been "processed" at a certain
temperature for a certain number of minutes, or it is not. There is no
such thing as "pretty close in practice."
Dressing and mayonnaise containers in the grocery store are not. They
have cardboard seals, are in no way airtight, and have not been
"processed." They *can't* be processed - you can't heat mayonnaise.
Conversely, if you argue that a plastic jar with a cardboard seal is
sufficient to preserve food, you should put up some fruits and
vegetables that way and check back on them in a couple of weeks.
--
Daniel MacKay
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 4:11 am
From: ppnerkDELETETHIS@yahoo.com (Phred)
In article <c%AQi.6197$lE2.1930@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net>, Jeanette Guire <jeanetteguire@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>Neither olive oil nor vinnegar need to be refrigerated; yet when mixed (as
>in home-made salad dressing), the recipes all ask for it to be refrigerated
>(where it congeals to a gooey mess).
>
>What is different about olive oil + vinnegar + a few spices & salt from a
>microbial culture standpoint?
>
>Why must I refrigerate a mix of that which doesn't itself need to be
>refrigerated?
I noted various responses to this thread, but my opinion is that it's
the *spices* that will most likely cause a potential problem by
introducing a suite of chemicals that microbes will find useful for
growth. (As well as probably introducing a nice selection of
bacterial spores to start the rot, so to speak. :-)
Also, as others mentioned, bugs that may be able to metabolise
pure olive oil probably require some moisture present to do their
thing, and that would be provided by the vinegar.
Further, if the pH of the final brew is higher than the magic figure
(4.6?) then some common nasties will be able to grow in it.
Cheers, Phred.
--
ppnerkDELETE@THISyahoo.com.INVALID
== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 4:32 am
From: "Daniel T."
Jeanette Guire <jeanetteguire@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Neither olive oil nor vinnegar need to be refrigerated; yet when mixed (as
> in home-made salad dressing), the recipes all ask for it to be refrigerated
> (where it congeals to a gooey mess).
>
> What is different about olive oil + vinnegar + a few spices & salt from a
> microbial culture standpoint?
>
> Why must I refrigerate a mix of that which doesn't itself need to be
> refrigerated?
As I understand it, the garlic and other herbs put in the dressing may
have botulism spores on them, the oil provides the environment for the
botulism to grow. The vinegar doesn't stop the growth because it
separates too easily from the mix.
You may be able to avoid refrigeration if you first infuse the herbs and
garlic in pure vinegar. However I think the likelihood of spoilage is
greater if you do this. (It may not be toxic, but it will taste bad.)
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Design Contest by NASA - Earthquake resistant building
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/49bad5e34bef6dc0?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 1:21 am
From: Designer
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Life Insurance - A Boon
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f72cb5482116f720?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 2:02 am
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== 1 of 1 ==
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TOPIC: For those who rarely fill their refrigerators.....
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5e16d6f7a7266491?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 5:09 am
From: Jeff
Shadowland wrote:
> If you find that your refrigerator is say usually only half full,
> place containers of water into the empty areas.
> Once that water cools, it acts like a cold sink. When you open the
> refrig door, all the cool air gets out and the all the new air must be
> cooled again.
> With containers of water filling up empty space...that just means
> there's less air that needs to be cooled.
> That water keeps the coolness much better than the air.
>
> With a filled refrig you'll find your frig saving energy.
I think this is an urban myth. Anyone ever do a actual research on this?
Water has a very high specific heat and it will take a lot of energy
to remove the BTUs of heat. If you never put in the water jugs you'd
never have to remove their heat. Air on the other hand has a really low
specific heat per cubic foot (and so would those plastic peanuts that
have been mentioned).
What the water does is store thermal energy and even out any
temperature swings. But it has to be cooled itself and that is power
that you never would have spent if you hadn't put it in! And that power
drain is not just initial, but continuous. I think a better question is
just how much less electricity will an empty fridge use than a full one.
Any one with a "kill a watt" want to give that a try? I think the
losses of door openings are more of length of time than number of
openings. Just like you shouldn't leave your front door open on a cold
day, you shouldn't leave your fridge door open while you are thinking.
Jeff
>
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Free Kids Sippy Cup From Juicy Juice!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e4d1c00fe991fe43?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 5:05 am
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==============================================================================
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