Frugal Living: 25 new messages in 10 topics

Monday, October 15, 2007

25 new messages in 10 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Why does olive oil & vinnegar (mixed) need to be refrigerated anyway?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/cbc77de31f1e4169?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 6:07 pm
From: "just joe"

>> amazon.com has some good deals on dictionaries.
>
> Only a fool bothers with that sort of dinosaur technology when there are
> so many online.
>

kinda why i suggested it to you...................................

== 2 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 6:20 pm
From: Logan Shaw

Rod Speed wrote:
> GreenieLeBrun <GreenieLeBrun@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> You will find that these commercial dressings contain preservatives
>> that inhibit the growth of microorganisms
>
> Mine doesnt.

Well, you learn something new every day. Rod Speed has his own brand
of salad dressing, just like Paul Newman. I never would've guessed it.

- Logan

== 3 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 6:33 pm
From: hchickpea@hotmail.com

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 17:08:17 -0700, "Bob F" <bobnospam@gmail.com>
wrote:

>> Consistant with the fact that mayonaise can be unrefrigerated, but
>> that once it is mixed into other foods the mixture can be deadly.
>
>Doesn't it usually say "refrigerate after opening"?

You obviously know my old girlfriend.

== 4 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 7:04 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

just joe <don.gato@alaska.com> wrote:
>>> amazon.com has some good deals on dictionaries.
>>
>> Only a fool bothers with that sort of dinosaur technology when there
>> are so many online.
>>
>
> kinda why i suggested it to you...................................

Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.

Even someone as stupid as you should be able to find countless
examples of where I have posted a link to an online dictionary.

== 5 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 7:05 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Logan Shaw <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> Rod Speed wrote:
>> GreenieLeBrun <GreenieLeBrun@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> You will find that these commercial dressings contain preservatives
>>> that inhibit the growth of microorganisms
>>
>> Mine doesnt.
>
> Well, you learn something new every day. Rod Speed has his own brand
> of salad dressing, just like Paul Newman. I never would've guessed it.

Pathetic.

== 6 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 7:09 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Daniel T. <daniel_t@earthlink.net> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Daniel T. <daniel_t@earthlink.net> wrote:

>>> As I understand it, the garlic and other herbs put in the dressing
>>> may have botulism spores on them, the oil provides the
>>> environment for the botulism to grow. The vinegar doesn't stop
>>> the growth because it separates too easily from the mix.

>> Doesnt explain why the ready to use stuff keeps fine unrefrigerated
>> but you need to refrigerate it once its been opened.

> Commercial salad dressings and acidified sauces are microbiologically safe.

They do however tell you to refrigerate after opening. There's a reason for that.

> Manufacturers follow strict quality controls and diligently
> comply with FDA-mandated Good Manufacturing
> Practices in production of these commercial products.

See above.

> Commercial salad dressing and sauce products are also made with pasteurized eggs

Not the ones being discussed, those dont contain any eggs at all.

> that are free of Salmonella and other pathogenic bacteria
> and further ensure the safety of these products.

See above.

> As such, these commercial products do not have
> the food safety risks associated with their homemade
> counterparts, which contain unpasteurized eggs.

Not the ones being discussed, those dont contain any eggs at all.

> Homemade versions also may not contain sufficient
> quantities of food acids like vinegar (acetic acid) or
> lemon juice (citric acid) to kill harmful microorganisms.

Unlikely with the mixture being discussed, see the subject.

> (http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap1sal.html)

Not relevant to what is being discussed.

== 7 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 8:07 pm
From: "just joe"

>
> Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
>

look up the word 'grammar'. you could probably find a good book on
amazon.com

== 8 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 8:08 pm
From: William Souden

Rod Speed wrote:t.
>
> Pathetic.
>
>
You certainly are, welfare boy.

== 9 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 8:22 pm
From: William Souden

just joe wrote:
>> Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
>>
>
> look up the word 'grammar'. you could probably find a good book on
> amazon.com
>
>
welfare Rod dropped out of high school.

== 10 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 9:12 pm
From: "John Weiss"

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote...
>
> Wrong, as always. A freshly manufactured glass bottle is close
> enough to sterile just because of the process used to make it.

So, what does that have to do with the state of olive oil or vinegar?
Packaging plants don't manufacture bottles; they fill bottles that have
been made elsewhere and shipped.

== 11 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 9:46 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

just joe <don.gato@alaska.com> wrote:

> look up the word 'grammar'. you could probably find a good book on amazon.com

Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.

== 12 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 9:50 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

John Weiss <jrweiss@nospamattglobal.net> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> GreenieLeBrun <GreenieLeBrun@hotmail.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> GreenieLeBrun <GreenieLeBrun@hotmail.com> wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>>> GreenieLeBrun <GreenieLeBrun@hotmail.com> wrote
>>>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>>>>> Goomba38 <Goomba38@comcast.net> wrote
>>>>>>>>> Rod Speed wrote

>>>>>>>>>>> Why must I refrigerate a mix of that which
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't itself need to be refrigerated?

>>>>>>>>>> Essentially because the mixing will normally end up contaminating the mixture, if only because the container
>>>>>>>>>> wont be sterile.

>>>>>>>>> They technically weren't sterile beforehand either.

>>>>>>>> The containers they came in were near enough.

>>>>>>> Sterility (from a microbiological view)is like virginity it either is or it isn't no in between.

>>>>>> Wrong with new containers for those components.

>>>>> No, not unless those containers were sterilised via autoclaving, hot air (160C), or gamma irradiation.

>>>> They end up close enough to sterile due to the manufacturing process.

>>> There is no such thing as "close enough to sterile". Sterility is an absolute.

>> Wrong, as always. A freshly manufactured glass bottle is close
>> enough to sterile just because of the process used to make it.

> So, what does that have to do with the state of olive oil or vinegar?

Everything to do with the fact that they are sterile enout for all practical purposes.

> Packaging plants don't manufacture bottles; they fill bottles that have been made elsewhere and shipped.

Duh.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: flush da toilet with rain-water
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d09a42bdb27b1164?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 6:41 pm
From: Beloved Leader

On Oct 15, 1:51 pm, A Veteran <geor...@humboldt1.com> wrote:
> our local University has built a "green" bldg. it collects rain water to
> flush the toilets. for at least 5 months in a very rainey North West.

The new T. C. Williams High School in Alexandria, Virginia, is like
this. There is a 500,000 gallon cistern underneath the school to hold
rain water used for flushing the toilets.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: cheap sell wholesale handbags wallets purse bags
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/03452fb1ffaf47a1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: "If it's yellow, let it mellow. If it's red ....
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1ab4eec5e0e4a531?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 7:26 pm
From: Alan Truism

On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 11:27:08 -0400, Otto Bahn wrote:

> "HangEveryRepubliKKKan" <Justice@ExecuteTheBushTraitor.com> wrote
>
>> > I'm all for water conservation, but I don't really care to get his piss on
>> > me from urinal splash back. I now have to flush both before and after I
>> > pee.
>>
>> But you don't mind getting your own piss on you from urnal splashback when
>> you pee.
>>
>> Maybe you should stand back a little further, adjust your aim, or use the
>> toilet.
>
> I never flush urinals. If the next guy doesn't like it,
> he can do it. I'm not a hygiene freak, but I ain't
> touching anything I don't have to in a pubic restroom.
> And yes, if you are standing, you are splashing, but I
> figure sitting is even worse, except at my house. The
> designers of toilets and urinals do their best, but
> there's no escaping physics.
>

What about at work?

What do your coworkers say when they walk in after you to find
a golden glowing bowl of piss?

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 8:48 pm
From: "HangEveryRepubliKKKan"

"Alan Truism" <alan.truism@yahoo.com> wrote
> What do your coworkers say when they walk in after you to find
> a golden glowing bowl of piss?

He never flushes toilets either. He just leaves a nice log for his fellow
AmeriKKKan countrymen to discover.

I think I'll do the same next time I visit the AmeriKKKan state.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: For those who rarely fill their refrigerators.....
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5e16d6f7a7266491?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 9:38 pm
From: Logan Shaw

Jeff wrote:
> What the water does is store thermal energy and even out any
> temperature swings. But it has to be cooled itself and that is power
> that you never would have spent if you hadn't put it in! And that power
> drain is not just initial, but continuous.

I think you're 100% correct up to the "not just initial, but continuous"
part. I don't think that part is true because if it were, the jugs of
water would be a magical source of heat. Heat enters through the walls
of the fridge at a fixed rate (given a certain temperature inside), and
what's inside the fridge doesn't affect how much heat enter.

However, a larger thermal mass will cause the temperature inside to shift
more slowly because more heat is required to raise the temperature a given
amount. And that is the reasoning for keeping a full fridge: the heat
gain from the exterior is the same, but if the thermal mass is higher,
the cycle time of the refrigeration system will be longer. To the extent
that there is overhead in starting up the refrigeration system, this could
increase the efficiency slightly.

> I think a better question is
> just how much less electricity will an empty fridge use than a full one.

Yes, that is the ultimate test. I suspect the thermal mass of the
inside and its effect on cycle time is pretty well overwhelmed by other
factors, like how much insulation there is in the walls of the fridge,
whether the door seals are sealing properly, and whether the coils have
been cleaned recently.

- Logan

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 9:44 pm
From: Logan Shaw

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> It's mostly initial, but adding mass surface inside the fridge increases
> airflow and condensation when the door is open, so the fridge gains more
> heat when the door is open and uses more energy over time, IMO.

That probably depends on how you arrange things physically within the
fridge. If you, say, never use the bottom shelf and you put a 5-gallon
jug of water down there, and orient it so that it blocks the air from
sinking out, it could reduce the airflow a lot and maybe only increase
the condensation a little. Also, if you fill the fridge *really* full,
you are reducing the total volume of air in the fridge, and thus reducing
the airflow (because it takes force to move air through narrow passages,
due to friction).

I guess the best plan is to get a fridge with an airlock instead of a
door. Or remodel your kitchen and make it much larger so that you can
fit in a chest fridge / freezer. Or maybe work on antigravity. Or
get some of those clear plastic strips they hang as a curtain in doors
to prevent excess airflow.

- Logan

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 9:59 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Logan Shaw <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> Jeff wrote:
>> What the water does is store thermal energy and even out any
>> temperature swings. But it has to be cooled itself and that is power
>> that you never would have spent if you hadn't put it in! And that
>> power drain is not just initial, but continuous.

> I think you're 100% correct up to the "not just initial, but continuous" part.

I initially had the same reaction but decided its just clumsy wording
and he really means that there will be an ongoing effect on the
amount of heat they are involved in every time the door is opened,
in the sense that nick spelt that out more clearly, rather than
continuous in the sense of what happens when the door is kept closed.

> I don't think that part is true because if it were, the jugs of water would be a magical source of heat. Heat enters
> through the walls of the fridge at a fixed rate (given a certain temperature inside), and what's inside the fridge
> doesn't affect how much heat enter.

I doubt he doesnt realise that.

> However, a larger thermal mass will cause the temperature inside to shift more slowly because more heat is required to
> raise the
> temperature a given amount. And that is the reasoning for keeping a full fridge: the heat gain from the exterior is
> the same, but if the
> thermal mass is higher, the cycle time of the refrigeration system
> will be longer. To the extent that there is overhead in starting up
> the refrigeration system, this could increase the efficiency slightly.

And you may well get the effect nick proposed, the extra surfaces
of the containers of water may well provide a place for condensation
to occur every time the door is opened, and that condensation has
to be cooled as well.

>> I think a better question is just how much less electricity will an empty fridge use than a full one.

> Yes, that is the ultimate test.

I bet its actually surprisingly difficult to test, because the amount of
energy required to cool the air that replaces what falls out of the
fridge without the containers of water is so low, that it may well
be swamped by the variations in the different airflow with the
containers of water, and the effect of condensation in that situation etc.

> I suspect the thermal mass of the inside and its effect on cycle time is pretty well overwhelmed by other factors,
> like how much insulation there is in the walls of the fridge, whether the door seals are sealing properly, and whether
> the coils have been cleaned recently.

And how often the door is opened in spades, and the
state of the air outside the fridge, particularly humidity wise.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 11:15 pm
From: Jeff

Logan Shaw wrote:
> Jeff wrote:
>
>> What the water does is store thermal energy and even out any
>> temperature swings. But it has to be cooled itself and that is power
>> that you never would have spent if you hadn't put it in! And that
>> power drain is not just initial, but continuous.
>
>
> I think you're 100% correct up to the "not just initial, but continuous"
> part. I don't think that part is true because if it were, the jugs of
> water would be a magical source of heat. Heat enters through the walls
> of the fridge at a fixed rate (given a certain temperature inside), and
> what's inside the fridge doesn't affect how much heat enter.

I'm unsure of this myself. Most of the loss is initial, but there is
a cycle of slight cooling and slight warming (including the defrost
cycle) and more mass will take more power to drive that. Note also
Nicks post about another surface for moisture to condense on when the
door is open.
>
> However, a larger thermal mass will cause the temperature inside to shift
> more slowly because more heat is required to raise the temperature a given
> amount. And that is the reasoning for keeping a full fridge: the heat
> gain from the exterior is the same, but if the thermal mass is higher,
> the cycle time of the refrigeration system will be longer. To the extent
> that there is overhead in starting up the refrigeration system, this could
> increase the efficiency slightly.

Could be, but I think the start up surge is a small compared to the
run time. I remember when we discussed fluorescent starting surge that
another urban myth of leaving fluorescent lights on saved money was
debunked.
>
>> I think a better question is just how much less electricity will an
>> empty fridge use than a full one.
>
>
> Yes, that is the ultimate test. I suspect the thermal mass of the
> inside and its effect on cycle time is pretty well overwhelmed by other
> factors, like how much insulation there is in the walls of the fridge,
> whether the door seals are sealing properly, and whether the coils have
> been cleaned recently.

Refrigerator power useage has dropped dramatically. In the last decade
it plummeted and if you go back another decade or so you'll see a
another step in efficiency. How much of that is compressor technology
and how much is insulation or even poor maintenance I don't know.

Curiously while researching that I ran across this. "Ten tips to
reduce refrigerator power consumption":

<URL:

http://ezinearticles.com/?10-Tips-To-Reduce-The-Power-Consumption-Of-The-Refrigerator&id=526324

And the urban myth of the jugs of water is nowhere to be found.

Wish I could find the power consumption stats, funny how I kept
running across those while I was looking for something completely different!

Jeff

>
> - Logan

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Old hillbilly trick
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/43174d8ee314b8f1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 9:46 pm
From: Logan Shaw

Shadowland wrote:
> Instead of buying "Chaplips" lip gloss...stick your finger in your
> ear. Ear wax is an excellent
> lip gloss substitution.

And tastes DELICIOUS!

- Logan

==============================================================================
TOPIC: personal checks
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c66a055f62296a0a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 10:03 pm
From: bob@coolgroups.com

Can someone recommend a cheap place to re-order personal checks on the
net?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Bush To Let Illegal Aliens Get $40 Digital TV Coupons
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f941e4a655a77d3f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 10:24 pm
From: wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr)

In article <151020070639353960%takebackamerica@2008.com>,
Audie Murphy's Ghost <takebackamerica@2008.com> said:

> In article <471312d8$0$20631$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
> Anthony Matonak <anthonym40@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> Audie Murphy's Ghost wrote:
>>
>>> So now you want to blow people up and shoot them for crossing
>>> a border. How North Korean of you.
>>
>> How much problem does North Korea have with illegal aliens
>> crossing the border?
>
> Gee, that's funny. Do you do parties?

"Thank you ladies and gentlemen, you've been a great audience.
Don't forget to have your waitress deported."

--
William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Did I buy the worst two Nikon cameras (or are they all this bad?)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3b49006a02b43efc?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 10:38 pm
From: Jeanette Guire

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 18:54:59 +0100, BIC wrote:
> you have just been unlucky...........or heavy handed.

It's a VERY common problem BIC. Google for the Nikon coolpix battery door
latch and you'll see many people have the same problem. For every one you
find, there are hundreds who don't know about the usenet or the forums.
Even Nikon's own forums are fraught with sorry sad little coolpix owners.

Look at the design in the photos of the notorious Nikon Coolpix 2100 and
3100 series cameras. You, like most others in this thread, will have to
conclude the little flimsy plastic loop is bound to break under almost ANY
circumstance.

Did you actually look at the pictures?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Acomplia Acheter Online
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/28918389ecbb2a11?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 11:16 pm
From: PLOTARYAN@gmail.com

On Oct 15, 9:20 pm, milis <don.2.da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Acomplia Acheter Online
>
> http://acomplia.easy--forex.com/fr.html
>
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> obèses et pour ceux qui souhaitent sérieusement stopper le tabagisme.
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> C'est les fumeurs principaux de raison redoutent et ils hésitent ainsi
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>
> http://acomplia.easy--forex.com/fr.html

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Monday, October 15, 2007

25 new messages in 10 topics - digest

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