Frugal Living: 25 new messages in 4 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* For Non-Muslims - 21 messages, 10 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/80b4ebf934225518?hl=en
* China beauty of the passion story： - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/46aa4ec703b480a6?hl=en
* Surviving in New York on 99 cents - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3504240fa7698ae2?hl=en
* Un-insulated water heater tank by woodstove! - 2 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a42916fb887669dc?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: For Non-Muslims
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/80b4ebf934225518?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 21 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 30 2008 5:44 am
From: نسمة ايمان

Allah (God)

Islam is the complete submission and obedience to Allah (God). The
name Allah (God) in Islam never refers to Muhammad (pbuh), as many
Christians may think; Allah is the personal name of God.

What do Muslims believe about Allah?

1. He is the one God, Who has no partner.
2. Nothing is like Him. He is the Creator, not created, nor a part of
His creation.
3. He is All-Powerful, absolutely Just.
4. There is no other entity in the entire universe worthy of worship
besides Him.
5. He is First, Last, and Everlasting; He was when nothing was, and
will be when nothing else remains.
6. He is the All-Knowing, and All-Merciful,the Supreme, the Sovereign.
7. It is only He Who is capable of granting life to anything.
8. He sent His Messengers (peace be upon them) to guide all of
mankind.
9. He sent Muhammad (pbuh) as the last Prophet and Messenger for all
mankind.
10. His book is the Holy Qur'an, the only authentic revealed book in
the world that has been kept without change.
11. Allah knows what is in our hearts.

These are some of the basic guidelines Muslims follow in their
knowledge of God:

1. Eliminate any anthropomorphism (human qualities) from their
conception of Allah. His attributes are not like human attributes,
despite similar labels or appellations.
2. Have unwavering faith in exactly what Allah and Prophet Muhammad
(pbuh) described Allah to be, no more, no less.
3. Eradicate any hope or desire of learning or knowing the modality of
His names and attributes.
4. Belief totally in all the names and attributes of Allah; one cannot
believe in some and disbelieve the others.
5. One cannot accept the names of Allah without their associated
attributes, i.e. one cannot say He is Al-Hayy - 'The Living' and then
say that He is without life.
6. Similarity in names (or meanings) does not imply similarity in what
is being described (referents). As a robotic arm differs from a human
arm, so the "hand" of Allah is nothing like a human hand, His speech
is nothing like human speech, etc.
7. Certain words are ambiguous or vague in their meanings, and thus
may be susceptible to misinterpretation. Only those meanings that are
in accordance with what is specified by Allah and His Prophet (pbuh)
are acceptable.

Cleanliness

Islam places great emphasis on cleanliness, in both its physical and
spiritual aspects. On the physical side, Islam requires the Muslim to
clean his body, his clothes, his house, and the whole community, and
he is rewarded by God for doing so. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said, for
example:

"Removing any harm from the road is charity (that will be rewarded by
Allah)." [Bukhari]

While people generally consider cleanliness a desirable attribute,
Islam insists on it , making it an indispensible fundamental of the
faith. A muslim is required to to be pure morally and spiritually as
well as physically. Through the Qur'an and Sunnah Islam requires the
sincere believer to sanitize and purify his entire way of life.

In the Qur'an Allah commends those who are accustomed to cleanliness:

"Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who
keep themselves pure and clean." [2: 22]

In Islam the Arabic term for purity is Taharah. Books of Islamic
jurisprudence often contain an entire chapter with Taharah as a
heading.

Allah orders the believer to be tidy in appearance:

"Keep your clothes clean." [74:4]

The Qur'an insists that the believer maintain a constant state of
purity:

"Believers! When you prepare for prayer wash your faces, and your
hands (and arms) to the elbows; rub your heads (with water) and (wash)
your feet up to the ankles. If you are ritually impure bathe your
whole body." [5: 6]

Ritual impurity refers to that resulting from sexual release,
menstruation and the first forty days after childbirth. Muslims also
use water, not paper or anything else to after eliminating body
wastes.

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) advised the Muslims to appear neat and tidy in
private and in public. Once when returning home from battle he advised
his army:

"You are soon going to meet your brothers, so tidy your saddles and
clothes. Be distinguished in the eyes of the people." [Abu Dawud]

On another occasion he said:

"Don't ever come with your hair and beard disheveled like a
devil." [Al-Tirmidhi]

And on another:

"Had I not been afraid of overburdening my community, I would have
ordered them to brush their teeth for every prayer." [Bukhari]

Moral hygeine was not ignored, either, for the Prophet (pbuh)
encouraged the muslims to make a special prayer upon seeing themselves
in the mirror:

"Allah, You have endowed me with a good form; likewise bless me with
an immaculate character and forbid my face from touching the
Hellfire." [Ahmad]

And modesty in dress, for men as well as for women, assists one in
maintaining purity of thought.

Being charitable is a way of purifying one's wealth. A Muslim who does
not give charity (Sadaqah) and pay the required annual Zakah, the 2.5%
alms-tax, has in effect contaminated his wealth by hoarding that which
rightfully belongs to others:

"Of their wealth take alms so that you may purify and sanctify
them." [9: 103]

All the laws and injunctions given by Allah and His Prophet (pbuh) are
pure; on the other hand, man-made laws suffer from the impurities of
human bias and other imperfections. Thus any formal law can only be
truly just when it is purified by divine guidance - as elucidated by
the Qur'an and the Sunnah - or if it is divinely ordained to begin
with - the Shari'ah.

Muslims Contribution To Science

Astronomy

Muslims have always had a special interest in astronomy. The moon and
the sun are of vital importance in the daily life of every Muslim. By
the moon, Muslims determine the beginning and the end of the months in
their lunar calendar. By the sun the Muslims calculate the times for
prayer and fasting. It is also by means of astronomy that Muslims can
determine the precise direction of the Qiblah, to face the Ka'bah in
Makkah, during prayer. The most precise solar calendar, superior to
the Julian, is the Jilali, devised under the supervision of Umar
Khayyam.

The Qur'an contains many references to astronomy.

"The heavens and the earth were ordered rightly, and were made
subservient to man, including the sun, the moon, the stars, and day
and night. Every heavenly body moves in an orbit assigned to it by God
and never digresses, making the universe an orderly cosmos whose life
and existence, diminution and expansion, are totally determined by the
Creator." [Qur'an 30:22]

These references, and the injunctions to learn, inspired the early
Muslim scholars to study the heavens. They integrated the earlier
works of the Indians, Persians and Greeks into a new synthesis.
Ptolemy's Almagest (the title as we know it is Arabic) was translated,
studied and criticized. Many new stars were discovered, as we see in
their Arabic names - Algol, Deneb, Betelgeuse, Rigel, Aldebaran.
Astronomical tables were compiled, among them the Toledan tables,
which were used by Copernicus, Tycho Brahe and Kepler. Also compiled
were almanacs - another Arabic term. Other terms from Arabic are
zenith, nadir, albedo, azimuth.

Muslim astronomers were the first to establish observatories, like the
one built at Mugharah by Hulagu, the son of Genghis Khan, in Persia,
and they invented instruments such as the quadrant and astrolabe,
which led to advances not only in astronomy but in oceanic navigation,
contributing to the European age of exploration.

Geography

Muslim scholars paid great attention to geography. In fact, the
Muslims' great concern for geography originated with their religion.
The Qur'an encourages people to travel throughout the earth to see
God's signs and patterns everywhere. Islam also requires each Muslim
to have at least enough knowledge of geography to know the direction
of the Qiblah (the position of the Ka'bah in Makkah) in order to pray
five times a day. Muslims were also used to taking long journeys to
conduct trade as well as to make the Hajj and spread their religion.
The far-flung Islamic empire enabled scholar-explorers to compile
large amounts of geographical and climatic information from the
Atlantic to the Pacific.

Among the most famous names in the field of geography, even in the
West, are Ibn Khaldun and Ibn Batuta, renowned for their written
accounts of their extensive explorations.

In 1166, Al-Idrisi, the well-known Muslim scholar who served the
Sicilian court, produced very accurate maps, including a world map
with all the continents and their mountains, rivers and famous cities.
Al-Muqdishi was the first geographer to produce accurate maps in
color.

It was, moreover, with the help of Muslim navigators and their
inventions that Magellan was able to traverse the Cape of Good Hope,
and Da Gama and Columbus had Muslim navigators on board their ships.

Humanity

Seeking knowledge is obligatory in Islam for every Muslim, man and
woman. The main sources of Islam, the Qur'an and the Sunnah (Prophet
Muhammad's traditions), encourage Muslims to seek knowledge and be
scholars, since this is the best way for people to know Allah (God),
to appreciate His wondrous creations and be thankful for them. Muslims
were therefore eager to seek knowledge, both religious and secular,
and within a few years of Muhammad's mission, a great civilization
sprang up and flourished. The outcome is shown in the spread of
Islamic universities; Al-Zaytunah in Tunis, and Al-Azhar in Cairo go
back more than 1,000 years and are the oldest existing universities in
the world. Indeed, they were the models for the first European
universities, such as Bologna, Heidelberg, and the Sorbonne. Even the
familiar academic cap and gown originated at Al-Azhar University.

Muslims made great advances in many different fields, such as
geography, physics, chemistry, mathematics, medicine, pharmacology,
architecture, linguistics and astronomy. Algebra and the Arabic
numerals were introduced to the world by Muslim scholars. The
astrolabe, the quadrant, and other navigational devices and maps were
developed by Muslim scholars and played an important role in world
progress, most notably in Europe's age of exploration.

Muslim scholars studied the ancient civilations from Greece and Rome
to China and India. The works of Aristotle, Ptolemy, Euclid and others
were translated into Arabic. Muslim scholars and scientists then added
their own creative ideas, discoveries and inventions, and finally
transmitted this new knowledge to Europe, leading directly to the
Rennaissance. Many scientific and medical treatises, having been
translated into Latin, were standard text and reference books as late
as the 17th and 18th centuries.

Mathematics

It is interesting to note that Islam so strongly urges mankind to
study and explore the universe. For example, the Holy Qur'an states:

"We (Allah) will show you (mankind) Our signs/patterns in the horizons/
universe and in yourselves until you are convinced that the revelation
is the truth." [Qur'an, 14:53]

This invitation to explore and search made Muslims interested in
astronomy, mathematics, chemistry, and the other sciences, and they
had a very clear and firm understanding of the correspondences among
geometry, mathematics, and astronomy.

The Muslims invented the symbol for zero (The word "cipher" comes from
Arabic sifr), and they organized the numbers into the decimal system -
base 10. Additionally, they invented the symbol to express an unkown
quantity, i.e. variables like x.

The first great Muslim mathematician, Al-Khawarizmi, invented the
subject of algebra (al-Jabr), which was further developed by others,
most notably Umar Khayyam. Al-Khawarizmi's work, in Latin translation,
brought the Arabic numerals along with the mathematics to Europe,
through Spain. The word "algorithm" is derived from his name.

Muslim mathematicians excelled also in geometry, as can be seen in
their graphic arts, and it was the great Al-Biruni (who excelled also
in the fields of natural history, even geology and mineralogy) who
established trigonometry as a distinct branch of mathematics. Other
Muslim mathematicians made significant progress in number theory.

Medicine

In Islam, the human body is a source of appreciation, as it is created
by Almighty Allah (God). How it functions, how to keep it clean and
safe, how to prevent diseases from attacking it or cure those
diseases, have been important issues for Muslims.

Prophet Muhammad himself urged people to "take medicines for your
diseases", as people at that time were reluctant to do so. He also
said,

"God created no illness, but established for it a cure, except for old
age. When the antidote is applied, the patient will recover with the
permission of God."

This was strong motivation to encourage Muslim scientists to explore,
develop, and apply empirical laws. Much attention was given to
medicine and public health care. The first hospital was built in
Baghdad in 706 AC. The Muslims also used camel caravans as mobile
hospitals, which moved from place to place.

Since the religion did not forbid it, Muslim scholars used human
cadavers to study anatomy and physiology and to help their students
understand how the body functions. This empirical study enabled
surgery to develop very quickly.

Al-Razi, known in the West as Rhazes, the famous physician and
scientist, (d. 932) was one of the greatest physicians in the world in
the Middle Ages. He stressed empirical observation and clinical
medicine and was inrivalled as a diagnostician. He also wrote a
treatise on hygeine in hospitals. Khalaf Abul-Qasim Al-Zahrawi was a
very famous surgeon in the eleventh century, known in Europe for his
work, Concessio (Kitab al-Tasrif).

Ibn Sina (d. 1037), better known to the West as Avicenna, was perhaps
the greatest physician until the modern era. His famous book, Al-Qanun
fi al-Tibb, remained a standard textbook even in Europe, for over 700
years. Ibn Sina's work is still studied and built upon in the East.

Other significant contributions were made in pharmacology, such as Ibn
Sina's Kitab al-Shifa' (Book of Healing), and in public health. Every
major city in the Islamic world had a number of excellent hospitals,
some of them teaching hospitals, and many of them were specialized for
particular diseases, including mental and emotional. The Ottomans were
particularly noted for their building of hospitals and for the high
level of hygeine practiced in them.

Definition

The word ISLAM has a two-fold meaning: peace, and submission to God.
This submission requires a fully conscious and willing effort to
submit to the one Almighty God. One must consciously and
conscientiously give oneself to the service of Allah. This means to
act on what Allah enjoins all of us to do (in the Qur'an) and what His
beloved Prophet, Muhammad (pbuh) encouraged us to do in his Sunnah
(his lifestyle and sayings personifying the Qur'an).

Once we humble ourselves, rid ourselves of our egoism and submit
totally to Allah, and to Him exclusively, in faith and in action, we
will surely feel peace in our hearts. Establishing peace in our hearts
will bring about peace in our external conduct as well.

Islam is careful to remind us that it not a religion to be paid mere
lip service; rather it is an all-encompassing way of life that must be
practiced continuously for it to be Islam. The Muslim must practice
the five pillars of the religion: the declaration of faith in the
oneness of Allah and the prophethood of Muhammad (pbuh), prayer,
fasting the month of Ramadan, alms-tax, and the pilgrimage to Makkah;
and believe in the six articles of faith: belief in God, the Holy
Books, the prophets, the angels, the Day of Judgment and God's decree,
whether for good or ill.

There are other injunctions and commandments which concern virtually
all facets of one's personal, family and civic life. These include
such matters as diet, clothing, personal hygeine, interpersonal
relations, business ethics, responsibilities towards parents, spouse
and children, marriage, divorce and inheritance, civil and criminal
law, fighting in defense of Islam, relations with non-Muslims, and so
much more.

Human Rights

Islam has been from its inception very concerned with issues of human
rights. Privacy, freedom, dignity and equality are guaranteed in
Islam. The holy Qur'an states clearly:

"There is no compulsion in religion."

And there are no reliable reports to confirm the old accusations that
when the Muslim armies were expanding into Asia, Africa and Europe the
people were put to the sword if they failed to convert to Islam. The
best proof is that not only did the Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians and
Hindus in those areas not perish or otherwise disappear, they actually
flourished as protected minority communities, and many individuals
rose to prominent positions in the arts, sciences, even in government.

The lives,property and privacy of all citizens in an Islamic state are
considered sacred, whether or not the person is Muslim. Non-Muslims
have freedom of worship and the practice of their religions, including
their own family law and religious courts. They are obliged to pay a
different tax (Jizyah) instead of the Zakah, and the state is
obligated to provide both protection and government services. Before
the modern era it was extremely rare to find a state or government
anywhere in the world that was as solicitous of its minorities and
their civil rights as the Islamic states.

In no other religion did women receive such a degree of legal and
moral equality and personal respect. Moreover, racism and tribalism
are incompatible with Islam, for the Qur'an speaks of human equality
in the following terms:

"Mankind! We created you from a single soul, male and female, and made
you into nations and tribes, that you may come to know one another.
Truly, the most honored of you in God's sight is the greatest of you
in piety."

Jesus

Islam honors all the prophets who were sent to mankind. Muslims
respect all prophets in general, but Jesus in particular, because he
was one of the prophets who foretold the coming of Muhammad. Muslims,
too, await the second coming of Jesus. They consider him one of the
greatest of Allah's prophets to mankind. A Muslim does not refer to
him simply as "Jesus," but normally adds the phrase "peace be upon
him" as a sign of respect.

No other religion in the world respects and dignifies Jesus as Islam
does. The Qur'an confirms his virgin birth (a chapter of the Qur'an is
entitled "Mary"), and Mary is considered to have been one of the
purest women in all creation. The Qur'an describes Jesus' birth as
follows:

"Behold!' the Angel said, God has chosen you, and purified you, and
chosen you above the women of all nations. Mary, God gives you good
news of a word from Him, whose name shall be the Messiah, Jesus son of
Mary, honored in this world and in the Hereafter, and one of those
brought near to God. He shall speak to the people from his cradle and
in maturity, and he shall be of the righteous. She said: "My Lord! How
shall I have a son when no man has touched me?' He said: "Even so; God
creates what He will. When He decrees a thing, He says to it, 'Be!'
and it is." [3:42-47]

Muslims believe that Jesus was born immaculately, and through the same
power which had brought Eve to life and Adam into being without a
father or a mother.

"Truly, the likeness of Jesus with God is as the likeness of Adam. He
created him of dust, and then said to him, 'Be!' and he was." [3:59]

During his prophetic mission, Jesus performed many miracles. The
Qur'an tells us that he said:

"I have come to you with a sign from your Lord: I make for you out of
clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it and it
becomes a bird by God's leave. And I heal the blind, and the lepers,
and I raise the dead by God's leave." [3:49]

Muhammad and Jesus, as well as the other prophets, were sent to
confirm the belief in one God. This is referred to in the Qur'an where
Jesus is reported as saying that he came:

"To attest the law which was before me, and to make lawful to you part
of what was forbidden you; I have come to you with a sign from your
Lord, so fear God and obey me." [3:50]

Prophet Muhammad emphasized the importance of Jesus by saying:

"Whoever believes there is no god but Allah, alone without partner,
that Muhammad is His messenger, that Jesus is a servant and messenger
of God, His word breathed into Mary and a spirit emanating from Him,
and that Paradise and Hell are true, shall be received by God into
Heaven." [Bukhari]

Knowledge

Islam urges people to read and learn on every occasion. The verses of
the Qur'an command, advise, warn, and encourage people to observe the
phenomena of nature, the succession of day and night, the movements of
stars, the sun, moon, and other heavenly bodies. Muslims are urged to
look into everything in the universe, to travel, investigate, explore
and understand them, the better to appreciate and be thankful for all
the wonders and beauty of God's creations. The first revelation to
Muhammad showed how much Islam cares about knowledge.

"Read, in the name of your Lord, Who created..." [96:1]

Learning is obligatory for both men and women. Moreover, education is
not restricted to religious issues; it includes all fields of
knowledge, including biology, physics, and technology. Scholars have
the highest status in Islam, second only to that accorded to prophets.

Almost from the very beginnings of the Islamic state Muslims began to
study and to master a number of fields of so-called secular learning,
beginning with linguistics and architecture, but very quickly
extending to mathematics, physics, astronomy, geography, medicine,
chemistry and philosophy. They translated and synthesized the known
works of the ancient world, from Greece, Persia, India, even China.
Before long they were criticizing, improving and expanding on that
knowledge. Centuries before the European Rennaissance there were
Muslim ³Rennaissance² men, men who were simultaneously explorers,
scientists, philosophers, physicians and poets, like Ibn Sina
(Avicenna), Umar Khayyam, and others.

Main Pillars

Shahadah

The first pillar of Islam is that a Muslim believe and declare his
faith by saying the Shahadah (lit. 'witness'), also known as the
Kalimah:

La ilaha ila Allah; Muhammadur-rasul Allah. 'There is no god but
Allah; Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.'

This declaration contains two parts. The first part refers to God
Almighty, the Creator of everything, the Lord of the Worlds; the
second part refers to the Messenger, Muhammad (pbuh) a prophet and a
human being, who received the revelation through the Archangel
Gabriel, and taught it to mankind.

By sincerely uttering the Shahadah the Muslim acknowledges Allah as
the sole Creator of all, and the Supreme Authority over everything and
everyone in the universe. Consequently the Muslim closes his/her heart
and mind to loyalty, devotion and obedience to, trust in, reliance on,
and worship of anything or anyone other than Allah. This rejection is
not confined merely to pagan gods and goddesses of wood and stone and
created by human hands and imaginations; this rejection must extend to
all other conceptions, superstitions, ideologies, ways of life, and
authority figures that claim supreme devotion, loyalty, trust, love,
obedience or worship. This entails, for example, the rejection of
belief in such common things as astrology, palm reading, good luck
charms, fortune-telling and psychic readings, in addition to praying
at shrines or graves of "saints", asking the dead souls to intercede
for them with Allah. There are no intercessors in Islam, nor any class
of clergy as such; a Muslim prays directly and exclusively to Allah.

Belief in the prophethood of Muhammad (pbuh) entails belief in the
guidance brought by him and contained in his Sunnah (traditions of his
sayings and actions), and demands of the Muslim the intention to
follow his guidance faithfully. Muhammad (pbuh) was also a human
being, a man with feelings and emotions, who ate, drank and slept, and
was born and died, like other men. He had a pure and upright nature,
extraordinary righteousness, and an unwavering faith in Allah and
commitment to Islam, but he was not divine. Muslims do not pray to
him, not even as an intercessor, and Muslims abhor the terms
"Mohamedan" and "Mohamedanism".

Salah

Prayer (Salah), in the sense of worship, is the second pillar of
Islam. Prayer is obligatory and must be performed five times a day.
These five times are dawn (Fajr), immediately after noon (Dhuhr), mid-
afternoon ('Asr), sunset (Maghrib), and early night (Isha'). Ritual
cleanliness and ablution are required before prayer, as are clean
clothes and location, and the removal of shoes. One may pray
individually or communally, at home, outside, virtually any clean
place, as well as in a mosque, though the latter is preferred. Special
is the Friday noon prayer, called Jum'ah. It, too, is obligatory and
is to be done in a mosque, in congregation. It is accompanied by a
sermon (Khutbah), and it replaces the normal Dhuhr prayer.

There is no hierarchical clerical authority in Islam, no priests or
ministers. Prayers are led by any learned person who knows the Qur'an
and is chosen by the congregation. He (or she, if the congregation is
all women) is called the imam. There is also no minimum number of
congregants required to hold communal prayers. Prayer consists of
verses from the Qur'an and other prayers, accompanied by various
bodily postures - standing, bowing, prostrating and sitting. They are
said in Arabic, the language of the revelation, though personal
supplications (Du'ah) can be offered in one's own language.
Worshippers face the Qiblah, the direction of the Ka'bah in the city
of Makkah.

The significance of prayer lies in one's maintaining a continuous link
to God five times a day, which helps the worshipper avoid misdeeds if
he/she performs the prayers sincerely. In addition it promotes
discipline, God-consciousness and placing one's trust in Allah alone,
and the importance of striving for the Hereafter. When performed in
congregation it also provides a strong sense of community, equality
and brotherhood/sisterhood.

http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/dawah/0004.htm#allah

== 2 of 21 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 30 2008 5:53 am
From: spack

In article <19dd678b-48e6-4200-aad2-40093a50cd54
@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, olaalaa1@gmail.com says...
> Allah (God)
>
<tedious bollocks snipped>

Thanks for this. If I want to find out about Islam or any other mass
delusions, I'll ask.

== 3 of 21 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 30 2008 6:07 am
From: Lookout

On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 13:53:47 +0100, spack <spack@home.com> wrote:

>In article <19dd678b-48e6-4200-aad2-40093a50cd54
>@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, olaalaa1@gmail.com says...
>> Allah (God)
>>
><tedious bollocks snipped>
>
>Thanks for this. If I want to find out about Islam or any other mass
>delusions, I'll ask.

snicker

== 4 of 21 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 30 2008 6:07 am
From: "Lookout2.0"

Lookout wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 13:53:47 +0100, spack <spack@home.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <19dd678b-48e6-4200-aad2-40093a50cd54
>> @p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, olaalaa1@gmail.com says...
>>> Allah (God)
>>>
>> <tedious bollocks snipped>
>>
>> Thanks for this. If I want to find out about Islam or any other mass
>> delusions, I'll ask.
>
> snicker

Why are you doing that? There is no god according to you, but you are on
your way to hell --- snicker. You can run but you can't hide. I am not
going to cut you up too much, just a little bit. ;-)

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

== 5 of 21 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 30 2008 6:31 am
From: Shawn Hirn

In article <1206881983_1079@pronews.com>,
"Lookout2.0" <mrLookout@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Lookout wrote:
> > On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 13:53:47 +0100, spack <spack@home.com> wrote:
> >
> >> In article <19dd678b-48e6-4200-aad2-40093a50cd54
> >> @p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, olaalaa1@gmail.com says...
> >>> Allah (God)
> >>>
> >> <tedious bollocks snipped>
> >>
> >> Thanks for this. If I want to find out about Islam or any other mass
> >> delusions, I'll ask.
> >
> > snicker
>
> Why are you doing that? There is no god according to you, but you are on
> your way to hell --- snicker. You can run but you can't hide. I am not
> going to cut you up too much, just a little bit. ;-)

Proof?

== 6 of 21 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 30 2008 6:45 am
From: "Tralfamador"

spack wrote:
> In article <19dd678b-48e6-4200-aad2-40093a50cd54
> @p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, olaalaa1@gmail.com says...
>> Allah (God)
>>
> <tedious bollocks snipped>
>
> Thanks for this. If I want to find out about Islam or any other mass
> delusions, I'll ask.

Why do we want to leap in and denounce theist diatribes. Why should we cut
in between a group of theists and confront them with our rational, atheistic
logic? Many times we are confronted with a plaintive "Why can't we agree to
disagree and respect each others points of view?" I will try to explain my
own personal stance here. Enough is enough! It's time to draw that line in
the sand.

For too long, for millennia, since man first started to form societies we
have had our view of the universe tainted with religion. To say that theists
have had a fair crack at the whip would be understatement in the extreme.
Theistic dogma has caused more misery, more wars, more suppression and held
back the discovery of the universe we inhabit than any other invention.

From the indoctrination of generations of innocent, inquiring children in
the home, through schools and their mandatory acts of worship of fictitious,
vengeful gods, the foul distortions introduced by the likes of the Dover
School Board, the theft of a woman's right to control of her own body, the
intrusion of a false morality upon our daily lives and the stifling of
science.

All these things must stop! It is no longer a matter of respect, of
tolerance or of agreeing to disagree. The stakes are far too high. No! You
cannot blow people up in the name of your mythical being. No! You cannot
kill doctors who choose to help women regain control of their lives. No! You
cannot divert money that should be healing the sick to spend on your
costumes and buildings. No! You cannot tell me how to think anymore. No! You
cannot claim that your damn stupid, lame, small minded little creation myth
has equal value to Darwin's evolution and modern cosmology.

The time has come to leave the nursery, cast off these childish, dangerous
stories and grow the fuck up! Religion has sapped enough of mans resources.
Time, money, effort, emotion and whole damned races have been swallowed up
by these deluded zealots.

Every theist that EVER went into battle always had a god on their side.
Every poor sap who worked till they dropped was promised their reward after
their death. The crippled, the sick, the outcast and the insane have turned
to religion and been rewarded with nothing except vacuous empty promises.
It's time to stop the madness. It's time to confront this awful cancer, this
creeping, insidious lie. It's time to free humanity from the shackles of the
past. from the guilt. from the original sin. from the inferiority. It's time
to stop the killing. The gang mentality. Them and us. The threats of heaven,
the lure of hell, the hell of the faithful.

Theists, you've had your chance. You've had millennia of chances. Look at
the planet now. Is it better for religion or does the worlds major human
conflicts have their very basis in religion. Theism is a mind numbing death
shroud for humanity. It can not be allowed to continue. We have to stop
lying to our children. To ourselves.

This is why I leap in and denounce theists wherever I find them. If I upset
a few simpletons who cannot think outside their late bronze age shackles
then so be it. But your not going to poison this race forever. If you
theists have your way you will be the end as you always predicted. Self
fulfilling prophecy.

I will do my level best to rid my race of this handicap. The future of man
lies in the stars. Our Earth is finite, eventually our sun will leave the
main sequence and go red giant. If we're not out of here by then we, as a
race. are doomed. It is science that is our route to our true home in the
universe. You can't pray your way out of this one.

== 7 of 21 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 30 2008 6:47 am
From: "AC"

"Lookout2.0" <mrLookout@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1206881983_1079@pronews.com...
> Lookout wrote:
>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 13:53:47 +0100, spack <spack@home.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <19dd678b-48e6-4200-aad2-40093a50cd54
>>> @p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, olaalaa1@gmail.com says...
>>>> Allah (God)
>>>>
>>> <tedious bollocks snipped>
>>>
>>> Thanks for this. If I want to find out about Islam or any other mass
>>> delusions, I'll ask.
>>
>> snicker
>
> Why are you doing that? There is no god according to you, but you are on
> your way to hell --- snicker. You can run but you can't hide. I am not
> going to cut you up too much, just a little bit. ;-)
>

There is no God, heaven or hell. When you die you rot and become worm food.

Make the best of the life you have right now, because that all you're gonna
get.

And if Im wrong, God will forgive you.

== 8 of 21 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 30 2008 6:50 am
From: Lookout

AC wrote:
> "Lookout2.0" <mrLookout@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1206881983_1079@pronews.com...
>> Lookout wrote:
>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 13:53:47 +0100, spack <spack@home.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <19dd678b-48e6-4200-aad2-40093a50cd54
>>>> @p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, olaalaa1@gmail.com says...
>>>>> Allah (God)
>>>>>
>>>> <tedious bollocks snipped>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for this. If I want to find out about Islam or any other mass
>>>> delusions, I'll ask.
>>> snicker
>> Why are you doing that? There is no god according to you, but you are on
>> your way to hell --- snicker. You can run but you can't hide. I am not
>> going to cut you up too much, just a little bit. ;-)
>>
>
> There is no God, heaven or hell. When you die you rot and become worm food.
>
> Make the best of the life you have right now, because that all you're gonna
> get.
>
> And if Im wrong, God will forgive you.
>
> AC
>
>

Do you think I care? I am only here for one thing. Can you figure it out?

== 9 of 21 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 30 2008 6:49 am
From: "Ayatollah of rock 'n' roller"

Why do these people post to a TV group? What do they hope to achieve? Anger?
Hatred? Laughter?

== 10 of 21 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 30 2008 7:10 am
From: Lookout

On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 09:31:46 -0400, Shawn Hirn <srhi@comcast.net>
wrote:

>In article <1206881983_1079@pronews.com>,
> "Lookout2.0" <mrLookout@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Lookout wrote:
>> > On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 13:53:47 +0100, spack <spack@home.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> In article <19dd678b-48e6-4200-aad2-40093a50cd54
>> >> @p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, olaalaa1@gmail.com says...
>> >>> Allah (God)
>> >>>
>> >> <tedious bollocks snipped>
>> >>
>> >> Thanks for this. If I want to find out about Islam or any other mass
>> >> delusions, I'll ask.
>> >
>> > snicker
>>
>> Why are you doing that? There is no god according to you, but you are on
>> your way to hell --- snicker. You can run but you can't hide. I am not
>> going to cut you up too much, just a little bit. ;-)
>
>Proof?

I have the idiot filtered so I didn't see his comment.
Religionists don't need proof. I've asked for it repeatedly but they
just can't seem to back up their fairy tale.

== 11 of 21 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 30 2008 7:14 am
From: Lookout

On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 13:45:02 GMT, "Tralfamador" <Tralf@freeserve.net>
wrote:

>spack wrote:
>> In article <19dd678b-48e6-4200-aad2-40093a50cd54
>> @p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, olaalaa1@gmail.com says...
>>> Allah (God)
>>>
>> <tedious bollocks snipped>
>>
>> Thanks for this. If I want to find out about Islam or any other mass
>> delusions, I'll ask.
>
>Why do we want to leap in and denounce theist diatribes. Why should we cut
>in between a group of theists and confront them with our rational, atheistic
>logic? Many times we are confronted with a plaintive "Why can't we agree to
>disagree and respect each others points of view?" I will try to explain my
>own personal stance here. Enough is enough! It's time to draw that line in
>the sand.
>
>For too long, for millennia, since man first started to form societies we
>have had our view of the universe tainted with religion. To say that theists
>have had a fair crack at the whip would be understatement in the extreme.
>Theistic dogma has caused more misery, more wars, more suppression and held
>back the discovery of the universe we inhabit than any other invention.
>
> From the indoctrination of generations of innocent, inquiring children in
>the home, through schools and their mandatory acts of worship of fictitious,
>vengeful gods, the foul distortions introduced by the likes of the Dover
>School Board, the theft of a woman's right to control of her own body, the
>intrusion of a false morality upon our daily lives and the stifling of
>science.
>
> All these things must stop! It is no longer a matter of respect, of
>tolerance or of agreeing to disagree. The stakes are far too high. No! You
>cannot blow people up in the name of your mythical being. No! You cannot
>kill doctors who choose to help women regain control of their lives. No! You
>cannot divert money that should be healing the sick to spend on your
>costumes and buildings. No! You cannot tell me how to think anymore. No! You
>cannot claim that your damn stupid, lame, small minded little creation myth
>has equal value to Darwin's evolution and modern cosmology.
>
> The time has come to leave the nursery, cast off these childish, dangerous
>stories and grow the fuck up! Religion has sapped enough of mans resources.
>Time, money, effort, emotion and whole damned races have been swallowed up
>by these deluded zealots.
>
>Every theist that EVER went into battle always had a god on their side.
>Every poor sap who worked till they dropped was promised their reward after
>their death. The crippled, the sick, the outcast and the insane have turned
>to religion and been rewarded with nothing except vacuous empty promises.
>It's time to stop the madness. It's time to confront this awful cancer, this
>creeping, insidious lie. It's time to free humanity from the shackles of the
>past. from the guilt. from the original sin. from the inferiority. It's time
>to stop the killing. The gang mentality. Them and us. The threats of heaven,
>the lure of hell, the hell of the faithful.
>
> Theists, you've had your chance. You've had millennia of chances. Look at
>the planet now. Is it better for religion or does the worlds major human
>conflicts have their very basis in religion. Theism is a mind numbing death
>shroud for humanity. It can not be allowed to continue. We have to stop
>lying to our children. To ourselves.
>
> This is why I leap in and denounce theists wherever I find them. If I upset
>a few simpletons who cannot think outside their late bronze age shackles
>then so be it. But your not going to poison this race forever. If you
>theists have your way you will be the end as you always predicted. Self
>fulfilling prophecy.
>
> I will do my level best to rid my race of this handicap. The future of man
>lies in the stars. Our Earth is finite, eventually our sun will leave the
>main sequence and go red giant. If we're not out of here by then we, as a
>race. are doomed. It is science that is our route to our true home in the
>universe. You can't pray your way out of this one.
>
>T
>
I do it because no one else in there world does. It completely baffles
them when someone questions their fairy tale. It's fun watching them
pull their hair out when you say "prove it" and they can't. And then
they think when they tell you you are going to hell it actually means
something to you! That always kills me. I love going on local talk
radio and fucking with the local baptist preachers. By the time I'm
through with them they're insane with hatred for me...which I then
point out is very unchristian like....just to piss them off on the way
out the door.

== 12 of 21 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 30 2008 7:14 am
From: Lookout

On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 13:47:03 GMT, "AC" <xxxx@xxxx.xxx> wrote:

>
>"Lookout2.0" <mrLookout@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:1206881983_1079@pronews.com...
>> Lookout wrote:
>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 13:53:47 +0100, spack <spack@home.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <19dd678b-48e6-4200-aad2-40093a50cd54
>>>> @p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, olaalaa1@gmail.com says...
>>>>> Allah (God)
>>>>>
>>>> <tedious bollocks snipped>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for this. If I want to find out about Islam or any other mass
>>>> delusions, I'll ask.
>>>
>>> snicker
>>
>> Why are you doing that? There is no god according to you, but you are on
>> your way to hell --- snicker. You can run but you can't hide. I am not
>> going to cut you up too much, just a little bit. ;-)
>>
>
>There is no God, heaven or hell. When you die you rot and become worm food.
>
>Make the best of the life you have right now, because that all you're gonna
>get.
>
>And if Im wrong, God will forgive you.
>
>AC
>
Theism 101.

== 13 of 21 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 30 2008 7:11 am
From: Lookout

Lookout wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 09:31:46 -0400, Shawn Hirn <srhi@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>> In article <1206881983_1079@pronews.com>,
>> "Lookout2.0" <mrLookout@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Lookout wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 13:53:47 +0100, spack <spack@home.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <19dd678b-48e6-4200-aad2-40093a50cd54
>>>>> @p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, olaalaa1@gmail.com says...
>>>>>> Allah (God)
>>>>>>
>>>>> <tedious bollocks snipped>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for this. If I want to find out about Islam or any other mass
>>>>> delusions, I'll ask.
>>>> snicker
>>> Why are you doing that? There is no god according to you, but you are on
>>> your way to hell --- snicker. You can run but you can't hide. I am not
>>> going to cut you up too much, just a little bit. ;-)
>> Proof?
>
> I have the idiot filtered so I didn't see his comment.
> Religionists don't need proof. I've asked for it repeatedly but they
> just can't seem to back up their fairy tale.

You have yourself filtered. I don't think so there pal. Why don't you
whine to Supernews?

== 14 of 21 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 30 2008 7:15 am
From: Lookout

On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 13:49:16 GMT, "Ayatollah of rock 'n' roller"
<thisisf@lse.co.ck> wrote:

>Why do these people post to a TV group? What do they hope to achieve? Anger?
>Hatred? Laughter?
>
The dumbest people watch the most TV....they're easy targets for this
shit.

== 15 of 21 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 30 2008 7:15 am
From: Meng

Lookout wrote:
> Religionists don't need proof. I've asked for it repeatedly but they
> just can't seem to back up their fairy tale.

That's because they usually fall back on the "if you have faith you
don't need proof" explanation which is the biggest load of cop-out BS
ever.

== 16 of 21 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 30 2008 7:18 am
From: Lookout

Lookout wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 13:47:03 GMT, "AC" <xxxx@xxxx.xxx> wrote:
>
>> "Lookout2.0" <mrLookout@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1206881983_1079@pronews.com...
>>> Lookout wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 13:53:47 +0100, spack <spack@home.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <19dd678b-48e6-4200-aad2-40093a50cd54
>>>>> @p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, olaalaa1@gmail.com says...
>>>>>> Allah (God)
>>>>>>
>>>>> <tedious bollocks snipped>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for this. If I want to find out about Islam or any other mass
>>>>> delusions, I'll ask.
>>>> snicker
>>> Why are you doing that? There is no god according to you, but you are on
>>> your way to hell --- snicker. You can run but you can't hide. I am not
>>> going to cut you up too much, just a little bit. ;-)
>>>
>> There is no God, heaven or hell. When you die you rot and become worm food.
>>
>> Make the best of the life you have right now, because that all you're gonna
>> get.
>>
>> And if Im wrong, God will forgive you.
>>
>> AC
>>
> Theism 101.

Old Lookout is a ambulance chaser. If there is any sign of trouble, he
will chase it. He has been on a race thing lately, because he is a pure
racist.

== 17 of 21 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 30 2008 7:17 am
From: "Tralfamador"

Lookout wrote:

Lookout...

Shared Philosophy is Shared... except for the "God will forgive you..." bit.

== 18 of 21 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 30 2008 7:19 am
From: "Tralfamador"

Lookout wrote:
because he is a
> pure
> racist.
>

And the racism thing... Bad idea is bad IMHO.

== 19 of 21 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 30 2008 7:27 am
From: John Holmes

äÓãÉ ÇíãÇä "contributed" in 24hoursupport.helpdesk:

> Al <snip>

Fuck off and die. After you have visited www.adultsheepfinder.com, that is.

--
May 3 eccentric dogs urinate in front of your Aunt.

== 20 of 21 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 30 2008 7:35 am
From: Markku Grönroos

menkääs nyt beduiinit muualle

"Meng" <nospam@fnarg.co.uk> kirjoitti
viestissä:mgNHj.122605$nw4.6190@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> Lookout wrote:
>> Religionists don't need proof. I've asked for it repeatedly but they
>> just can't seem to back up their fairy tale.
>
> That's because they usually fall back on the "if you have faith you don't
> need proof" explanation which is the biggest load of cop-out BS ever.
>
>

== 21 of 21 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 30 2008 7:39 am
From: Lookout69

Tralfamador wrote:
> Lookout wrote:
> because he is a
>> pure
>> racist.
>>
>
> And the racism thing... Bad idea is bad IMHO.
>
>

Lookout can run but he can't hide. He has tried everything to stop me.
He can't do it. He doesn't own Unset like he thinks he does. ;-)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: China beauty of the passion story：
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/46aa4ec703b480a6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 30 2008 6:12 am
From: kungfuer

China beauty of the passion story：
http://www.kungfuer.com/html/Category/chinese-food/20080330/67.html

No way, I love him too, so love his body, his body, I have a strong
desire
Never stopped, I think I have a strong desire to be a woman, and he is
lit my passion and desire that
Individuals, in front of him, I really became Guotuitui sexy woman, I
become so charming, it seems gentleness
Water, I hope I see him as crazy, he likes to warm and calm, shortness
of breath like him, like him
Countless kiss reach my face………

http://www.kungfuer.com/html/Category/chinese-food/20080330/68.html

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Surviving in New York on 99 cents
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3504240fa7698ae2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 30 2008 7:26 am
From: cswansonlbcbo@gmail.com

On Mar 29, 1:00 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> William Souden <sou...@nospam.com> wrote:
> > Rod Speed wrote:
> >> William Souden <sou...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >>> Rod Speed wrote:
> >>>> The Real Bev <bashley101+use...@gmail.com> wrote
> >>>>> Donna wrote
> >>>>>> George Grapman <sfgeo...@paccbell.net> wrote
> >>>>>>> <http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/26/dining/26ninety.html?_r=1&ref=dinin...>
> >>>>>> Interesting story. Our dollar stores are not that great around
> >>>>>> here and often carry really inferior products. I'm thinking NYC
> >>>>>> has more to offer.
> >>>>> The 99-Cents-Only stores in the Los Angeles (and other, I guess)
> >>>>> area carry a lot of foreign food (mostly China, but not
> >>>>> exclusively), a variety of name-brand sausage/hotdog products,
> >>>> Trouble is that those are made from surplus cats and dogs and rats.
>
> >>>>> fresh vegetables and fruits, a lot of exotic sauces (the
> >>>>> Philippine banana sauce was pretty bland, but wotthehell) and a
> >>>>> nice variety of brand-name toothpaste and deodorant as well as a
> >>>>> lot of imported bathroom needs and cleaning supplies. Like
> >>>>> Fry's, you could live in a 99-Cents-Only store :-)
> >>>>>http://www.99only.com/
> >>>>> I love those stores. The penny-a-minute long distance cards alone
> >>>>> are worth the price of admission.
> >>>> You're better off with voip.
>
> >>> Until your internet connection goes down. VOIP is fine for social
> >>> calls or for companies with offices in different countries that need
> >>> to call each other but I would not want my business to customer
> >>> calls dependent on that service.
>
> >> There arent likely to be too many businesses that rely on
> >> penny-a-minute long distance cards alone, cretin.
> > But some businesses do rely on VOIP
>
> None rely on penny-a-minute long distance cards alone, cretin.
>
> > and the inherent problems were pointed out.
>
> Nope, you fucked that up completely. Any properly implemented voip system falls back to the PSTN fuckwit.

And that requires paying the monthly per line fees for both local
and long distance service that VOIP is supposed to avoid.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Un-insulated water heater tank by woodstove!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a42916fb887669dc?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 30 2008 7:34 am
From: "Bill"

"willshak" wrote in message
>
> How about a coil of soft copper tubing attached to the rear of the
> woodstove before it goes into your storage tank ( a coil like on the back
> of a dehumidifer) which would transfer heat by convection rather than
> radiation?
>

I've read a book on steam boilers and know just enough about the subject to
want to avoid creation of any steam. I've read about steam boilers exploding
and being launched like a rocket up out of the house and landing on a
neighbor's house, etc.

Also I would think that avoiding steam would depend on a pump circulating
the water. I live in a rural area and we have frequent power outages.
Sometime they last for 2 days.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 30 2008 7:38 am
From: "Bill"

"Neon John" wrote in message
>
> Solar water heat from the roof works well but generally, the tubing itself
> needs to
> be exposed to the solar radiation. Radiative energy transfer is much more
> effective
> than convective in this situation.
>

I live in a snow area and my roof is at a 45 degree angle. Also 2 story
house. So basically need a high lift to get up there. Quite easy to access
the attic though.

==============================================================================

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "misc.consumers.frugal-living"
group.

To post to this group, visit http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to misc.consumers.frugal-living-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com

To change the way you get mail from this group, visit:
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/subscribe?hl=en

To report abuse, send email explaining the problem to abuse@googlegroups.com

==============================================================================
Google Groups: http://groups.google.com?hl=en

Frugal Living

Blog Archive

Sunday, March 30, 2008

25 new messages in 4 topics - digest

No comments: