Frugal Living: 12/01/2007

Monday, December 31, 2007

25 new messages in 12 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Best prepaid or "Pay As You Go" cel plan for occasional user?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4dee5a0b0a1d2906?hl=en
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== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 8:14 am
From: SMS 斯蒂文* 夏

Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply wrote:
> SMS 斯蒂文* 夏 wrote:
>>
>> In general you want to avoid all the prepaid services sold at places
>> like Wal-Mart. In particular, TracFone, Net10, Boost, Virgin, AT&T and
>> Verizon InPulse should be avoided.
>
> I have had a Tracfone for YEARS and only had one problem with them,
> which was, admittedly, a little out of the ordinary (porting a telephone
> number from an analog Tracfone to a digital Tracfone).
>
> Call reception here in the San Francisco Bay Area has been great, costs
> me about $6-7 a month, and works perfectly.

I only say to avoid them, because other prepaid services are much less
expensive, both in the minimum cost per month, and the cost per minute.
For example, PagePlus is as little as 5.3¢ per minute, with a minimum
cost of $2.31 per month.

Tracfone was using the Verizon CDMA network for a while, and you
probably have one of those phones if you're getting good coverage in the
Bay Area (where I also am). I think that their current models are all
GSM on AT&T, which has less coverage.

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 8:44 am
From: "rick++"

> For a dozen calls per year, I really think a payphone is your best bet.
> Each call will be a ripoff, but I think you'll still come out ahead.

They maybe hard to find.
Plus many peole have cell#s with long distance. Many payphones dont
do long distance.

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 9:34 am
From: SMS 斯蒂文* 夏

rick++ wrote:
>> For a dozen calls per year, I really think a payphone is your best bet.
>> Each call will be a ripoff, but I think you'll still come out ahead.
>
> They maybe hard to find.
> Plus many peole have cell#s with long distance. Many payphones dont
> do long distance.

Huh? I've never found a payphone that doesn't do long distance, either
by coins, credit card, or calling card. Plus there's always toll free
access to extremely low cost calling long distance services like
OneSuite or TalkLoop.

Payphones are a dumb idea for other reasons, including the fact that
they are being removed at a rapid pace due to lack of use, and due to
use by criminal elements. And of course the whole reason that some
people want occasional use cell phones is to have access to a phone
ITMON (in the middle of nowhere). With the ability to have a cell phone
for as little as 21¢ per month, a pay phone makes no sense at all.

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 9:42 am
From: Dennis

On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 10:50:59 -0500, <h> wrote:

>
>"Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply" <mmeahan@TRASHsonic.net> wrote in
>message news:47788448$0$84203$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
>
>My Tracfone costs me $6.50 a month. I just renewed for a full year with 250
>minutes for $99 and then was able to add another full year for half price.
>If you use it a lot you will run out of minutes, but I've had my phone for 5
>years and I have over 700 minutes currently, and I've never had to add any.
>I only use this phone for emergencies or when I'm traveling, which isn't
>often.

If you go to Tracfone's website, there is an option to add any airtime
quantity and bump the expiration up to a year. So the minimum cost
comes with the $20/60 min/90 day airtime card plus the $50 one year
expiration bump, giving an average monthly cost of $5.83. For a while
they had a $10 airtime card, dropping the minimum to $5.00/month
average, but they don't seem to offer that one any more.

Like you, I don't use many minutes per year, so this deal works well
for me.

Dennis (evil)
--
The honest man is the one who realizes that he cannot
consume more, in his lifetime, than he produces.

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 9:58 am
From: "Chloe"

>>"Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply" <mmeahan@TRASHsonic.net> wrote
>>in
>>message news:47788448$0$84203$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
>>
>>My Tracfone costs me $6.50 a month. I just renewed for a full year with
>>250
>>minutes for $99 and then was able to add another full year for half price.
>>If you use it a lot you will run out of minutes, but I've had my phone for
>>5
>>years and I have over 700 minutes currently, and I've never had to add
>>any.
>>I only use this phone for emergencies or when I'm traveling, which isn't
>>often.

I forget if the OP mentioned traveling or not. The thing that caused me to
ditch my Tracfone wasn't even the dropped calls I started getting locally
when the carrier changed--although that was troublesome and annoying. What
did it for me was when I went out of town for a week to a conference on a
college campus and planned on using the phone for daily chats with my
husband. There was literally no place in the vicinity of my dorm or
elsewhere on campus where I could maintain a connection for more than about
20 seconds. The class schedule was such that I didn't have time or energy to
run around finding an alternative way to phone. I couldn't get rid of the
Tracfone fast enough when I got home. I think I even discarded some minutes,
which tells for a tightwad like I am, I was really hacked off <g>.

I *would* caution anyone buying Tracfone service to realize the carrier can
change at any time--so be cautious of getting stuck with a bunch of minutes
that don't actually work anymore.

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 10:26 am
From: SMS 斯蒂文* 夏

Chloe wrote:

> I *would* caution anyone buying Tracfone service to realize the carrier can
> change at any time--so be cautious of getting stuck with a bunch of minutes
> that don't actually work anymore.

I wonder if you had an old TDMA Tracfone. TDMA service is rapidly going
away, and will be completely gone for the larger carriers soon.

Now Tracfone seems to be mostly GSM, with some CDMA.

Tracfone is heavily advertised and promoted, but in reality it's one of
the poorest choices for prepaid in terms of cost and coverage. It's just
easy to buy as it's sold in so many retail stores. I remember going to
Alaska about five years ago, when there was no GSM service (and no
Nextel service), and being so glad I had CDMA/AMPS. The local stores
were doing a booming business in Tracfones for tourists.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: (www globwholesale com) Brand Boots, Brand Shoes, Brand Purse Wholesale
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/eb8e5f9623381b0c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 8:12 am
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla or Mazda, which is best????
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3262f8c1d706d9af?hl=en
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== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 8:34 am
From: skarkada@gmail.com

Roger,

Today being the last day of the year, is the best day to buy an
automobile.

I realize Hyundai is not in your list, but I just wanted to draw your
attention to Sonata considering "frugality" into the equation.

Having driven Toyotas (Tercel, Camry, and Sienna) for several years,
we bought a Hyundai Sonata two years ago. The main reason for us to
even consider a Hyundai was the treatment we got from various Toyota
dealers. We are very happy with our purchase... not a single problem
so far. Yes, 2 years is not enough to vouch for the quality of the
product. (Our Toyotas have lasted 8 to 10 years.)

I strongly recommend you to visit http://www.edmunds.com/ and compare.

Good luck.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 8:46 am
From: SMS 斯蒂文* 夏

If those are the only criteria you're looking at, the Corolla would be
the best choice.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 10:11 am
From: Dennis

On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 05:38:59 -0800 (PST), meteore <bigrog98@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I am thinking of trading in my Camry for a smaller car.
>
>In your opinion, which of the above small cars would last me longer,
>give better gas mileage, be more reliable and have less upkeep,
>insofar as parts wearing out?
>
>I am only one person and I do not need a large car.
>
>Thanking you in advance for your opinions.

Having owned all three (Protege, Corolla and Civic) over the years,
all were well built and had great reliability with regular (scheduled)
maintainence. The current Corolla and the Civic get better fuel
mileage than the Mazda 3 -- Mazda has targeted a sportier image and a
younger demographic with their Zoom! Zoom! campaign and mileage has
not been a priority.

We just traded in my wife's aging Mazda Protege on a new Pontiac Vibe,
which is a Toyota Matrix (Corolla wagon) under the skin. The reason
we went with the Pontiac is because they are currently offering a
$2000 factory rebate, which made the final price pretty attractive,
plus there is a (good, small town) dealer nearby.

Dennis (evil)
--
My output is down, my income is up, I take a short position on the long bond and
my revenue stream has its own cash flow. -George Carlin

==============================================================================
TOPIC: is this really fair?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f61f17e0953e4fcf?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 8:56 am
From: "Huge Wad Of Spit"

Nice job, BOYA

Are you really sure????

http://tinyurl.com/ypfrfa
http://tinyurl.com/3bjh65

These are better indicators...of the truth
More hypocricy

Open Your Mouth Shame Him
(:>[0} <========= Pahauuktouui
Nah Swaller.....
see your own bullshit will choke ya.
Enjoy some of my chew.

<So_Boya@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e673a0ba-4b21-426f-905c-3706b5a6a684@i72g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 31, 9:58 am, Shawn Hirn <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
> In article
> <c841d205-74ec-461b-acc1-197b33c1d...@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
>
>
> So_B...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Dec 30, 8:05 am, Shawn Hirn <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > In article <n7edn3h4akltdlkbv1mq1tv05dnvb8c...@4ax.com>,
> > > Scott in SoCal <scottenazt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 11:56:55 -0800 (PST), Harry K
> > > > <turnkey4...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >You apparently missed the "insufficient evidence" bit. It happens
> > > > >all
> > > > >the time, even in outright murders by violence. If the PA doesn't
> > > > >have a reasonable chance to prove the case, he won't prosecute.
>
> > > > Brandy rear-ends another car on the freeway, forcing it into
> > > > several
> > > > other cars and killing the driver. Just how much more evidence does
> > > > he
> > > > need to get a conviction?
>
> > > Gross negligence. Accidents are not a criminal issue if there is no
> > > DUI
> > > or other criminal violation involved.
>
> > Troll Shame Him...
> > why do you not see it that way if careless smoking caused a fire?
> > Now an accident is an accident and someone died...
> > There seems to be a double standard there.
>
> Where did I say anything about accusing the person in this story of
> criminal conduct? I agree that accidents happen all the time and locking
> up someone because of an accident is foolish, especially when that
> person became a corpse due to the accident.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Troll Shame Him..
My post involved more than in this story,
You play dumbo all the time to cover your ass.
Here's what you post don't play dumb.

accidential fires
smoker can't have accidents?
They should be arrested...huh

http://tinyurl.com/yukaez

http://tinyurl.com/2f8vv6

You ever had an accident??
http://tinyurl.com/ysp7dj

You' ve had so many I going to have to put
in a watch alert to clue.

Your Insurance should be 16K per yr.
Otherwise any company insuring you
has an elevated risk factor.
Guarenteed to lose money.

Just like the smokers health insurance rates.. Eh?

Even at 16 k 1 good lawsuit for 500K
(the avg today ) would break the bank.

Me 1 minor fender bender 20 yrs.
total damage 350.00

Nobody has that many accidents that is
not criminal. Yet you troll to tout.

So Boya

sr. robert, nizo and others that want to
rid us of the troll...
e me it works....Just what the header says.

let's get a letter together and get comcast
a UDP for this guy.

Maybe we can do all 4 trolls

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The Tears Of Finding The Truth
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f2d9a4a0687ebada?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 10:23 am
From: abdo911

Through The Internet
INTRODUCTION
The following story occurred on the Internet
through one of the chat programs (Freetel) in January 1999. It is a
real dialogue between a Christian and a Muslim. The story centers on
Derek's realization of today's Christianity and his subsequent
conversion to lslam. This Christian-Muslim dialogue has been edited
for readability and for the clarity of its message.

ABDULLAH: Hello there! How are you man?
DEREK: Hello! Well, how are you?
ABDULLAH: I'm fine and you?
DEREK: I'm fine thanks.
ABDULLAH: Where are you from?
DEREK: I'm from L.A. (Los Angeles).
ABDULLAH: The land of Hollywood!
DEREK: Well that's right. Have you ever been to L.A.?
ABDULLAH: No, never. Why are you calling yourself the Black Magic?
DEREK: It's just a nickname, man!
ABDULLAH: I see.
DEREK: Where are you from? Are you an Arab?
ABDULLAH: Yes, I am from Saudi Arabia but I'm in Qatar now. What is
your name?
DEREK: My name is Derek. What's your name?
ABDULLAH: My name is Abdullah.
DEREK: What does Abdullah mean?
ABDULLAH: Abdullah means the servant of Allah and it is the function
of each individual on the face of the earth to serve llah according to
what Allah wants from us. By the way, Allah is the proper name of
God.
DEREK: How do we know what God or Allah wants from us?
ABDULLAH: All of this is outlined in the Qur'an and the Sunnah (Ways
of Prophet Muhammad; his sayings, actions and aprovals). These are the
two major sources of guidance in lslam. Could you please tell me more
about yourself? How ol are you?
DEREK: I am 19 years old, black and very uch interested in
knowing more about lslam. First of all, what should a person do or
believe in to become a Muslim?
ABDULLAH: Very easy, you just say that there is no god worthy of
worshi but Allah and Muhammad is His Messenger, and you become
Muslim,
DEREK: You mean Muhammad is his apostle? But a a Christian or non-
Muslim, this sentence is not enough to make it clear to me.
ABDULLAH: Ok Allah sent Muhammad a His last Prophet and Messenger and
revealed the Qur'an to him as the final revelation to mankind. Allah
said that He perected His religion and called it lslam (see Qur'an
5:3). Islam means peaceful submission to the Will of Allah.
DEREK: I see.
ABDULLAH: Yes, and unfortunately most Christians don't know or they
deny that the coming of Prophet Muhammad is foretold in their
scriptures (See Deuternomy 18:18; 21: 21; Psalms 1 18:22-23; Isiah
42:1-13; Habakuk 3:3-4; Matthew 21:42-43; John 14:12-17,15:26,27;
1:5-16). Muslim theologians have stated that the person who is
described by Jesus to come after him (in the above verses) is Mhammed
(peace be upon him).
DEREK: OK Fine, but why was there a need for another prophet after
Jesus and another revelation after the Bible?
ABDULLAH: All of the Prophets came to teach their peoples the Oneness
of God. In the case of Jesus, he was only sent as a Messenger to the
lost sheep of the house of Israel (see Matt. 15:24). What happened was
that all of these prophets were not well received by the majority of
the people. For instance, they started tampering with the teachings of
Moses and Jesus, peace be upon them (see Qur'an 2:79). That is why
Allah sent Muhammad with the last Message, (i.e., the Qur'an), to
bring all of mankind back to the belief in and worship of One God,
without partners or intermediaries.
DEREK: Is the Qur'an similar to the Bible? I mean, what is it composed
of?
ABDULLAH: The Qur'an came as the last code emphasizing the same pure
monotheistic teachings of Jesus peace be upon him, defending all the
previous pure teachings of monotheistic beliefs and clarifying who
Jesus was and who his mother was, showing that they were no more than
great people.
DEREK: OK then, how-can we be sure that the Qur'an has remained the
same since the time of Prophet Muhammad?
ABDULLAH: Allah Himself has guaranteed that He would guard the Qur'an
from corruption (see Qur'an 15:9). Hence, the real and pure words of
Allah are found in the Qur'an, which was revealed in Arabic, the
language of Mohammed's people. Since then, not an iota has changed.
This is unlike what has happened in the other religions. For example,
if you look at the Bible, you find a lot of versions; the name Bible
itself is indicative of those changes because Bible means a collection
of books from different writers.
DEREK: But didn't God call it the Bible?
ABDULLAH: God calls the Scripture revealed to Jesus "Injeel" in the
Qur'an for which the closest name in the Bible would be the word
Gospel. The Bible was written may years after the time of Jesus in a
language that was alien to Jesus; it was Latin Vulgate, a language
that he never spoke. Isn't this strange? Interestingly, most of what
was written in the New Testament was authored by Paul, who, according
to James, the brother of Jesus in the Bible, had a polluted mind
because he changed and contradicted most of the teachings of Jesus.
DEREK: I think you know more about Christianity than the Pope does.
ABDULLAH: You are wrong by saying that I know more than the Pope. I
have simply investigated the Bible with an inquiring mind, which is
something that all Christians should do.
DEREK: Is there any English version of the Holy Qur'an?
ABDULLAH: There are many translations of the meanings of the Qur'an.
The Qur'an was revealed in Arabic which means that the words of ALLAH
are in Arabic. The translations are the words of human beings relating
to the meanings of the Qur'an to the non-Arabic speaking masses.
DEREK: How does the Qur'an define God to mankind or how does the
Muslim perceive God?
ABDULLAH: GOD is the One and Only True GOD, and the Creator of all. He
does not beget nor is He begotten. He is unlike His creation in every
respect. He is the All-knowing, The Powerful, The Merciful, The
Irresistible, and The King of kings.
DEREK: But it is somehow difficult for me to perceive God as being the
same as His creatures.
ABDULLAH: You are absolutely right to have difficulty perceiving this
because human beings have a limited capacity. This is why ALLAH sent
revelations to His Prophets and Messengers to tell us who He is. So if
you want to know who God is, just read the Qur'an.
DEREK: Christians believe that Jesus was sent for the salvation of all
mankind. If this is not true, then the foundation of Christianity is
faulty. Right? What do you think?
ABDULLAH: That's correct. The Christians of today are following what
Paul taught and also tend to follow what the priests tell them to do
instead of following what Jesus said.
DEREK: Kindly explain the concept of salvation through the
crucifixion of Jesus.
ABDULLAH: In Christianity, the Doctrine of Original Sin is the reason
that there is a need for salvation through Jesus' crucifixion.
However, this doctrine was invented by Paul and it is strongly negated
in the Old Testament (see Ezekial 18:20, Jeremiah 31:30, Deut. 24:16).
This doctrine is an attempt to escape the responsibility of
righteousness with the belief that punishment is given to someone else
to release us from our burden of sins (see Ephesians 1:7, Romans 4:25,
10:9, Corinthians 15:21) In the Qur'an, every soul is responsible for
its own deeds, good or bad (see 74:38,41:46, 3:25, 6:154).
DEREK: What about the crucifixion itself?
ABDULLAH: The Bible says Jesus cried out in a loud voice beseeching
God for help on the cross: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken
me?" (Matt. 27:46) Does that sound like Jesus to you?
DEREK: No, then what about Jesus' appearance to his disciples after
the crucifixion?
ABDULLAH: Jesus didn't die on the cross nor was he resurrected. If he
were resurrected, then he would have come to his disciples in a
spiritual body. As shown in Luke 24:36-43, he met them with his
physical body after the event of his alleged crucifixion. In the
Qur'an, it says that Jesus was not crucified, but it was someone else
who was made to look like him (see 4:157,158).
DEREK: How did the story of the crucifixion of Jesus get into the
Bible then?
ABDULLAH: Once again, Paul was responsible (see Timothy 2:8 and
Romans 5:10).
DEREK: Well, I, very deep in my heart, believe that God can never
look like his creation nor does he do what they do. What I believe is
that God is the perfect one who is very much different from everything
we see or touch. In other words, I think the writer can never look
like his book.
ABDULLAH: You are right. There is nothing comparable to Allah (see
Qur'an 112:4). The prophets came with a very clear message to worship
God alone, without any partners or intercessors.
However, Paul took pagan beliefs and practices from the Romans and
mixed them with the teachings of Jesus. Consequently, Paul was mostly
responsible for elevating Jesus to the status of Son of God (see Acts
9:20) and God.
DEREK: Yes. Now I remember. The first Commandment is, " Hear, O
Israel, the Lord our God is One Lord."
ABDULLAH: You're right. That's in Mark 12:29. Moreover, the Qur'an
confirms that God is One: "Say He is Allah, the One and Only
(God)." (Qur'an 112:1)
DEREK: What you are saying makes perfect sense. This is just
incredible! You mean that for almost 2000 years what the Christians
have been following is wrong?
ABDULLAH: Yes, especially their misunderstanding of who Jesus was.
DEREK: Oh my God! I've been deceived! Really, I feel religiously
raped. I have been fooled simply because I followed blindly the
religion that I was born with and didn't take care to investigate it
thoroughly. But still inside me there is something holding me back
from accepting lslam, even though lslam is clearly the True Religion.
ABDULLAH: Your last comment shows that you are a Muslim not a
Christian and if you really love God and His Messenger Jesus, you will
follow lslam and Prophet Muhammad. Break this barrier inside you and
come back to the way of your ancestors. You are now free because you
are looking for the Truth and our great prophet Jesus told us that we
should look for the Truth and the Truth will set us free. So, you will
be a free man as soon as you accept It. Be strong enough to accept
lslam as the Truth, without any hesitation on your part and you will
taste real freedom and real happiness that you have never tasted
before.
DEREK: Frankly, I am concerned about the negative way lslam and
Muslims are shown in the media. In the West, there is a stigma
attached to being a Muslim and I'm not sure I'm ready to live with
that stigma.
ABDULLAH: This is why I have chosen to tell people about the right
picture of lslam.
DEREK: Then, what is the right picture of lslam?
ABDULLAH: The right picture of lslam is conveyed in the Qur'an, which
is exemplified by Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. The reality is
that it is not fair to judge a religion by the actions of its
followers alone because there are good and bad followers in every
religion. The correct thing to do is to judge a religion by its
documented revelation from God and the prophet who brought that
revelation.
DEREK: I see. I agree with you, but I'm still concerned about the
reaction of my family and friends if they know that I am a Muslim.
ABDULLAH: On Judgement Day, no one will be able to help you, not even
your father, mother or any of your friends (see Qur'an 31:33). So, if
you believe that lslam is the True religion, you should embrace it and
live your life to please the One Who created you. Be an illuminating
torch for them. Do not delay your coming to lslam. If you die before
becoming a Muslim, then it's too late (see Qur'an 2:132, 3:102, 3:85).
So grab this opportunity now. You can only remedy this pain inside you
by becoming a Muslim and being able in the future, God willing, to
come and perform pilgrimage (Hajj).
DEREK: You are very wise man, I want to say that when I sometimes see
on the satellite, especially in the season of Hajj, people of
different colors and different races sitting side by side and praying
to God, I feel pain deep inside my heart and I feel something urging
me to talk with someone to know more about that great religion that
can gather all the races in the same place. Thanks to you, I have
found that person. So please help me become a Muslim!
ABDULLAH: Brother let us take it step by step. First, enter lslam
by saying: I BEAR WITNESS THAT THERE IS NO GOD WORTHY OF WORSHIP
EXCEPT ALLAH. AND I BEAR WITNESS THAT MUHAMMAD IS HIS SERVANT AND
MESSENGER. I BEAR WITNESS THAT JESUS IS HIS PROPHET AND MESSENGER. Let
us say this again, I BEAR WITNESS THAT THERE IS NO GOD WORTHY OF
WORSHIP EXCEPT ALLAH AND I BEAR WITNESS THAT MUHAMMAD IS HIS SERVANT
AND MESSENGER. I BEAR WITNESS THAT JESUS IS HIS PROPHET AND
MESSENGERS. I BEAR WITNESS THAT JESUS IS HIS PROPHET AND MESSENGER.
DEREK: I BEAR WITNESS THAT THERE IS NO GOD WORTHY OF WORSHIP EXCEPT
ALLAH. I BEAR WITNESS THAT MUHAMMAD IS HIS SERVANT AND LAST MESSENGER.
I BEAR WITNESS THAT EISA IS HIS SERVANT AND MESSENGER.
ABDULLAH: By the way, Jesus' name is not Jesus. It is a latinized
name. His real name is Eisa. Now you will say the same thing in
Arabic, the language of the Qur'an. I will transliterate for you.
ASH'HADU AN LA'ILAHA ILLA ALLAH WAASH'HADU ANNA MUHAMMMADAN
RASOOLULLAH WA ASH'HADU ANNA EISA ABDULLAHI WA RASOOLUHU.
DEREK: ASHADU AN LA ILAHA ILLALLAH WA ASHADU ANNA MUHAMMADAN
RASULULLAH WA ASHADU ANNA EISA ABDULLAH1 WA RASOOLUHU.
ABDULLAH: Brother, say ALLAH is the greatest because you are a Muslim
now. You are not a Christian anymore. Your are in the House of lslam.
If I were with you, I would hug you as my brother in lslam. How do you
feel now? A burden has been removed from you and you feel like you are
so light, isn't this right?
DEREK: If you were with me now, you would have seen my tears reaching
my neck. You are a great brother. I feel that I have just come to
life, This is exactly how I feel from now. I don't have to listen the
silly words of the priests in the church, who knowingly or unknowingly
lead people astray. I hope to be a good servant of ALLAH.
ABDULLAH: You know what came out of you was disbelief and it was
replaced by belief. You are so clean now, because when someone
embraces Islam sincerely, Allah forgives all of his past sins. So, go
to the Islamic center that has Muslims from all over the world and
announce your lslam there, and continue to learn more about lslam from
them. In addition, find a book on prayer in lslam and practice it.
This is essential. Now after you are through with me, you must take a
shower to purify yourself from previous wrong beliefs. Remember to
stay away from bad company and be with righteous Muslim people. Also,
beware of those so-called Muslims who call to nationalistic ideas or
racial thoughts, which are rejected in lslam. I love you as a brother
in lslam and I hope one day I will see you and hear your voice.
DEREK: I will for sure do what you have asked. And tomorrow I will go
to the Islamic center. Thank you for showing me the Truth. I will do
my best to meet people who know about lslam for sure. May God help you
guide more and more people to the true word of God. There is no God
but ALLAH and Muhammad is his Apostle... Well it is as difficult for
me as it is for you to leave you.
ABDULLAH: Well brother, you will not leave me for a long time. I will
soon be with you through my supplications. God willing. Pray for me,
brother.
DEREK: Well, I thank you, I love you although I do not know you yet.
But it is enough for me to remember that one day, a very dear man has
picked me up from the mud of life. Please teach me another Islamic
word in Arabic so as to make use of it in the Islamic center.
ABDULLAH: Assalamu Alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatu and
Astaghfirullah.
DEREK: What do they mean?
ABDULLAH: May the Peace, Mercy and Blessings of Allah be upon you.
This is used as a greeting to all Muslims. The last word means, Allah
forgive me. Well, I have to leave you now but be sure it will not be
for long.
DEREK: Assalamu Alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatu and Astaghfirullah
for being astray from the Truth all those years. May God bless you.
You have occupied a great place in my heart and I will never forget
you. Bye and talk to you later. Your brother in lslam, Derek, but I
will call myself Eisa from now on.
ABDULLAH: OK Eisa. I will leave you some final words of inspiration.
Certainly, the ultimate goal of every individual is to be in Paradise
forever. This reward of Paradise is too great to not have a price.
That price is true faith, which is proven obedience to Allah and
following the Sunnah of Prophet Mohammed (pbuh). THIS IS THE ROAD TO
PARADISE. Let's stay in touch! Assalamu Alaikum!
DEREK: O.K. Assalamu Alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatu

Publication's Source

www.islamworld.net

www.dawahmemo.com

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 2:44 pm
From: Al Bundy

abdo911 wrote:

>
You can't possibly believe that crap yourself.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 3:51 pm
From: "Joe"

Just one problem... Abdullah is really a 49 year old Nambla member from
Washington, DC and he is looking to meet up with Derek... And this was his
method of establishing contact.

Abdullah shares a hint to this when he says the following:

> ABDULLAH: Jesus didn't die on the cross nor was he resurrected. If he
> were resurrected, then he would have come to his disciples in a
> spiritual body. As shown in Luke 24:36-43, he met them with his
> physical body after the event of his alleged crucifixion. In the
> Qur'an, it says that Jesus was not crucified, but it was someone else
> who was made to look like him (see 4:157,158).

So... With his lie that they dressed some bloke up to look like Jesus, he
alludes to his real desires and purpose. Basically this "Abdullah" is
trying to look like someone else and will soon offer to visit poor Derek the
gullible.

Now... I'd suggest reading the book "What's So Great About Christianity" by
Dinesh D'Souza if you want to take a real analytical look at Christianity,
Islam and many of the other religions of the world.

See details here:
http://www.dineshdsouza.com/books/christianity-jacket.html

Happy new year.

Joe in Northern, NJ - V#8013-R

Currently Riding The "Mother Ship"
http://yunx.com/valk.htm

Ride a motorcycle in or near NJ?
http://tinyurl.com/5apkg

"abdo911" <jipksaman@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2afe3af7-9773-42d8-87a8-bef5432affac@v32g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Through The Internet
> INTRODUCTION
> The following story occurred on the Internet
> through one of the chat programs (Freetel) in January 1999. It is a
> real dialogue between a Christian and a Muslim. The story centers on
> Derek's realization of today's Christianity and his subsequent
> conversion to lslam. This Christian-Muslim dialogue has been edited
> for readability and for the clarity of its message.
>
> ABDULLAH: Hello there! How are you man?
> DEREK: Hello! Well, how are you?
> ABDULLAH: I'm fine and you?
> DEREK: I'm fine thanks.
> ABDULLAH: Where are you from?
> DEREK: I'm from L.A. (Los Angeles).
> ABDULLAH: The land of Hollywood!
> DEREK: Well that's right. Have you ever been to L.A.?
> ABDULLAH: No, never. Why are you calling yourself the Black Magic?
> DEREK: It's just a nickname, man!
> ABDULLAH: I see.
> DEREK: Where are you from? Are you an Arab?
> ABDULLAH: Yes, I am from Saudi Arabia but I'm in Qatar now. What is
> your name?
> DEREK: My name is Derek. What's your name?
> ABDULLAH: My name is Abdullah.
> DEREK: What does Abdullah mean?
> ABDULLAH: Abdullah means the servant of Allah and it is the function
> of each individual on the face of the earth to serve llah according to
> what Allah wants from us. By the way, Allah is the proper name of
> God.
> DEREK: How do we know what God or Allah wants from us?
> ABDULLAH: All of this is outlined in the Qur'an and the Sunnah (Ways
> of Prophet Muhammad; his sayings, actions and aprovals). These are the
> two major sources of guidance in lslam. Could you please tell me more
> about yourself? How ol are you?
> DEREK: I am 19 years old, black and very uch interested in
> knowing more about lslam. First of all, what should a person do or
> believe in to become a Muslim?
> ABDULLAH: Very easy, you just say that there is no god worthy of
> worshi but Allah and Muhammad is His Messenger, and you become
> Muslim,
> DEREK: You mean Muhammad is his apostle? But a a Christian or non-
> Muslim, this sentence is not enough to make it clear to me.
> ABDULLAH: Ok Allah sent Muhammad a His last Prophet and Messenger and
> revealed the Qur'an to him as the final revelation to mankind. Allah
> said that He perected His religion and called it lslam (see Qur'an
> 5:3). Islam means peaceful submission to the Will of Allah.
> DEREK: I see.
> ABDULLAH: Yes, and unfortunately most Christians don't know or they
> deny that the coming of Prophet Muhammad is foretold in their
> scriptures (See Deuternomy 18:18; 21: 21; Psalms 1 18:22-23; Isiah
> 42:1-13; Habakuk 3:3-4; Matthew 21:42-43; John 14:12-17,15:26,27;
> 1:5-16). Muslim theologians have stated that the person who is
> described by Jesus to come after him (in the above verses) is Mhammed
> (peace be upon him).
> DEREK: OK Fine, but why was there a need for another prophet after
> Jesus and another revelation after the Bible?
> ABDULLAH: All of the Prophets came to teach their peoples the Oneness
> of God. In the case of Jesus, he was only sent as a Messenger to the
> lost sheep of the house of Israel (see Matt. 15:24). What happened was
> that all of these prophets were not well received by the majority of
> the people. For instance, they started tampering with the teachings of
> Moses and Jesus, peace be upon them (see Qur'an 2:79). That is why
> Allah sent Muhammad with the last Message, (i.e., the Qur'an), to
> bring all of mankind back to the belief in and worship of One God,
> without partners or intermediaries.
> DEREK: Is the Qur'an similar to the Bible? I mean, what is it composed
> of?
> ABDULLAH: The Qur'an came as the last code emphasizing the same pure
> monotheistic teachings of Jesus peace be upon him, defending all the
> previous pure teachings of monotheistic beliefs and clarifying who
> Jesus was and who his mother was, showing that they were no more than
> great people.
> DEREK: OK then, how-can we be sure that the Qur'an has remained the
> same since the time of Prophet Muhammad?
> ABDULLAH: Allah Himself has guaranteed that He would guard the Qur'an
> from corruption (see Qur'an 15:9). Hence, the real and pure words of
> Allah are found in the Qur'an, which was revealed in Arabic, the
> language of Mohammed's people. Since then, not an iota has changed.
> This is unlike what has happened in the other religions. For example,
> if you look at the Bible, you find a lot of versions; the name Bible
> itself is indicative of those changes because Bible means a collection
> of books from different writers.
> DEREK: But didn't God call it the Bible?
> ABDULLAH: God calls the Scripture revealed to Jesus "Injeel" in the
> Qur'an for which the closest name in the Bible would be the word
> Gospel. The Bible was written may years after the time of Jesus in a
> language that was alien to Jesus; it was Latin Vulgate, a language
> that he never spoke. Isn't this strange? Interestingly, most of what
> was written in the New Testament was authored by Paul, who, according
> to James, the brother of Jesus in the Bible, had a polluted mind
> because he changed and contradicted most of the teachings of Jesus.
> DEREK: I think you know more about Christianity than the Pope does.
> ABDULLAH: You are wrong by saying that I know more than the Pope. I
> have simply investigated the Bible with an inquiring mind, which is
> something that all Christians should do.
> DEREK: Is there any English version of the Holy Qur'an?
> ABDULLAH: There are many translations of the meanings of the Qur'an.
> The Qur'an was revealed in Arabic which means that the words of ALLAH
> are in Arabic. The translations are the words of human beings relating
> to the meanings of the Qur'an to the non-Arabic speaking masses.
> DEREK: How does the Qur'an define God to mankind or how does the
> Muslim perceive God?
> ABDULLAH: GOD is the One and Only True GOD, and the Creator of all. He
> does not beget nor is He begotten. He is unlike His creation in every
> respect. He is the All-knowing, The Powerful, The Merciful, The
> Irresistible, and The King of kings.
> DEREK: But it is somehow difficult for me to perceive God as being the
> same as His creatures.
> ABDULLAH: You are absolutely right to have difficulty perceiving this
> because human beings have a limited capacity. This is why ALLAH sent
> revelations to His Prophets and Messengers to tell us who He is. So if
> you want to know who God is, just read the Qur'an.
> DEREK: Christians believe that Jesus was sent for the salvation of all
> mankind. If this is not true, then the foundation of Christianity is
> faulty. Right? What do you think?
> ABDULLAH: That's correct. The Christians of today are following what
> Paul taught and also tend to follow what the priests tell them to do
> instead of following what Jesus said.
> DEREK: Kindly explain the concept of salvation through the
> crucifixion of Jesus.
> ABDULLAH: In Christianity, the Doctrine of Original Sin is the reason
> that there is a need for salvation through Jesus' crucifixion.
> However, this doctrine was invented by Paul and it is strongly negated
> in the Old Testament (see Ezekial 18:20, Jeremiah 31:30, Deut. 24:16).
> This doctrine is an attempt to escape the responsibility of
> righteousness with the belief that punishment is given to someone else
> to release us from our burden of sins (see Ephesians 1:7, Romans 4:25,
> 10:9, Corinthians 15:21) In the Qur'an, every soul is responsible for
> its own deeds, good or bad (see 74:38,41:46, 3:25, 6:154).
> DEREK: What about the crucifixion itself?
> ABDULLAH: The Bible says Jesus cried out in a loud voice beseeching
> God for help on the cross: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken
> me?" (Matt. 27:46) Does that sound like Jesus to you?
> DEREK: No, then what about Jesus' appearance to his disciples after
> the crucifixion?
> ABDULLAH: Jesus didn't die on the cross nor was he resurrected. If he
> were resurrected, then he would have come to his disciples in a
> spiritual body. As shown in Luke 24:36-43, he met them with his
> physical body after the event of his alleged crucifixion. In the
> Qur'an, it says that Jesus was not crucified, but it was someone else
> who was made to look like him (see 4:157,158).
> DEREK: How did the story of the crucifixion of Jesus get into the
> Bible then?
> ABDULLAH: Once again, Paul was responsible (see Timothy 2:8 and
> Romans 5:10).
> DEREK: Well, I, very deep in my heart, believe that God can never
> look like his creation nor does he do what they do. What I believe is
> that God is the perfect one who is very much different from everything
> we see or touch. In other words, I think the writer can never look
> like his book.
> ABDULLAH: You are right. There is nothing comparable to Allah (see
> Qur'an 112:4). The prophets came with a very clear message to worship
> God alone, without any partners or intercessors.
> However, Paul took pagan beliefs and practices from the Romans and
> mixed them with the teachings of Jesus. Consequently, Paul was mostly
> responsible for elevating Jesus to the status of Son of God (see Acts
> 9:20) and God.
> DEREK: Yes. Now I remember. The first Commandment is, " Hear, O
> Israel, the Lord our God is One Lord."
> ABDULLAH: You're right. That's in Mark 12:29. Moreover, the Qur'an
> confirms that God is One: "Say He is Allah, the One and Only
> (God)." (Qur'an 112:1)
> DEREK: What you are saying makes perfect sense. This is just
> incredible! You mean that for almost 2000 years what the Christians
> have been following is wrong?
> ABDULLAH: Yes, especially their misunderstanding of who Jesus was.
> DEREK: Oh my God! I've been deceived! Really, I feel religiously
> raped. I have been fooled simply because I followed blindly the
> religion that I was born with and didn't take care to investigate it
> thoroughly. But still inside me there is something holding me back
> from accepting lslam, even though lslam is clearly the True Religion.
> ABDULLAH: Your last comment shows that you are a Muslim not a
> Christian and if you really love God and His Messenger Jesus, you will
> follow lslam and Prophet Muhammad. Break this barrier inside you and
> come back to the way of your ancestors. You are now free because you
> are looking for the Truth and our great prophet Jesus told us that we
> should look for the Truth and the Truth will set us free. So, you will
> be a free man as soon as you accept It. Be strong enough to accept
> lslam as the Truth, without any hesitation on your part and you will
> taste real freedom and real happiness that you have never tasted
> before.
> DEREK: Frankly, I am concerned about the negative way lslam and
> Muslims are shown in the media. In the West, there is a stigma
> attached to being a Muslim and I'm not sure I'm ready to live with
> that stigma.
> ABDULLAH: This is why I have chosen to tell people about the right
> picture of lslam.
> DEREK: Then, what is the right picture of lslam?
> ABDULLAH: The right picture of lslam is conveyed in the Qur'an, which
> is exemplified by Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. The reality is
> that it is not fair to judge a religion by the actions of its
> followers alone because there are good and bad followers in every
> religion. The correct thing to do is to judge a religion by its
> documented revelation from God and the prophet who brought that
> revelation.
> DEREK: I see. I agree with you, but I'm still concerned about the
> reaction of my family and friends if they know that I am a Muslim.
> ABDULLAH: On Judgement Day, no one will be able to help you, not even
> your father, mother or any of your friends (see Qur'an 31:33). So, if
> you believe that lslam is the True religion, you should embrace it and
> live your life to please the One Who created you. Be an illuminating
> torch for them. Do not delay your coming to lslam. If you die before
> becoming a Muslim, then it's too late (see Qur'an 2:132, 3:102, 3:85).
> So grab this opportunity now. You can only remedy this pain inside you
> by becoming a Muslim and being able in the future, God willing, to
> come and perform pilgrimage (Hajj).
> DEREK: You are very wise man, I want to say that when I sometimes see
> on the satellite, especially in the season of Hajj, people of
> different colors and different races sitting side by side and praying
> to God, I feel pain deep inside my heart and I feel something urging
> me to talk with someone to know more about that great religion that
> can gather all the races in the same place. Thanks to you, I have
> found that person. So please help me become a Muslim!
> ABDULLAH: Brother let us take it step by step. First, enter lslam
> by saying: I BEAR WITNESS THAT THERE IS NO GOD WORTHY OF WORSHIP
> EXCEPT ALLAH. AND I BEAR WITNESS THAT MUHAMMAD IS HIS SERVANT AND
> MESSENGER. I BEAR WITNESS THAT JESUS IS HIS PROPHET AND MESSENGER. Let
> us say this again, I BEAR WITNESS THAT THERE IS NO GOD WORTHY OF
> WORSHIP EXCEPT ALLAH AND I BEAR WITNESS THAT MUHAMMAD IS HIS SERVANT
> AND MESSENGER. I BEAR WITNESS THAT JESUS IS HIS PROPHET AND
> MESSENGERS. I BEAR WITNESS THAT JESUS IS HIS PROPHET AND MESSENGER.
> DEREK: I BEAR WITNESS THAT THERE IS NO GOD WORTHY OF WORSHIP EXCEPT
> ALLAH. I BEAR WITNESS THAT MUHAMMAD IS HIS SERVANT AND LAST MESSENGER.
> I BEAR WITNESS THAT EISA IS HIS SERVANT AND MESSENGER.
> ABDULLAH: By the way, Jesus' name is not Jesus. It is a latinized
> name. His real name is Eisa. Now you will say the same thing in
> Arabic, the language of the Qur'an. I will transliterate for you.
> ASH'HADU AN LA'ILAHA ILLA ALLAH WAASH'HADU ANNA MUHAMMMADAN
> RASOOLULLAH WA ASH'HADU ANNA EISA ABDULLAHI WA RASOOLUHU.
> DEREK: ASHADU AN LA ILAHA ILLALLAH WA ASHADU ANNA MUHAMMADAN
> RASULULLAH WA ASHADU ANNA EISA ABDULLAH1 WA RASOOLUHU.
> ABDULLAH: Brother, say ALLAH is the greatest because you are a Muslim
> now. You are not a Christian anymore. Your are in the House of lslam.
> If I were with you, I would hug you as my brother in lslam. How do you
> feel now? A burden has been removed from you and you feel like you are
> so light, isn't this right?
> DEREK: If you were with me now, you would have seen my tears reaching
> my neck. You are a great brother. I feel that I have just come to
> life, This is exactly how I feel from now. I don't have to listen the
> silly words of the priests in the church, who knowingly or unknowingly
> lead people astray. I hope to be a good servant of ALLAH.
> ABDULLAH: You know what came out of you was disbelief and it was
> replaced by belief. You are so clean now, because when someone
> embraces Islam sincerely, Allah forgives all of his past sins. So, go
> to the Islamic center that has Muslims from all over the world and
> announce your lslam there, and continue to learn more about lslam from
> them. In addition, find a book on prayer in lslam and practice it.
> This is essential. Now after you are through with me, you must take a
> shower to purify yourself from previous wrong beliefs. Remember to
> stay away from bad company and be with righteous Muslim people. Also,
> beware of those so-called Muslims who call to nationalistic ideas or
> racial thoughts, which are rejected in lslam. I love you as a brother
> in lslam and I hope one day I will see you and hear your voice.
> DEREK: I will for sure do what you have asked. And tomorrow I will go
> to the Islamic center. Thank you for showing me the Truth. I will do
> my best to meet people who know about lslam for sure. May God help you
> guide more and more people to the true word of God. There is no God
> but ALLAH and Muhammad is his Apostle... Well it is as difficult for
> me as it is for you to leave you.
> ABDULLAH: Well brother, you will not leave me for a long time. I will
> soon be with you through my supplications. God willing. Pray for me,
> brother.
> DEREK: Well, I thank you, I love you although I do not know you yet.
> But it is enough for me to remember that one day, a very dear man has
> picked me up from the mud of life. Please teach me another Islamic
> word in Arabic so as to make use of it in the Islamic center.
> ABDULLAH: Assalamu Alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatu and
> Astaghfirullah.
> DEREK: What do they mean?
> ABDULLAH: May the Peace, Mercy and Blessings of Allah be upon you.
> This is used as a greeting to all Muslims. The last word means, Allah
> forgive me. Well, I have to leave you now but be sure it will not be
> for long.
> DEREK: Assalamu Alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatu and Astaghfirullah
> for being astray from the Truth all those years. May God bless you.
> You have occupied a great place in my heart and I will never forget
> you. Bye and talk to you later. Your brother in lslam, Derek, but I
> will call myself Eisa from now on.
> ABDULLAH: OK Eisa. I will leave you some final words of inspiration.
> Certainly, the ultimate goal of every individual is to be in Paradise
> forever. This reward of Paradise is too great to not have a price.
> That price is true faith, which is proven obedience to Allah and
> following the Sunnah of Prophet Mohammed (pbuh). THIS IS THE ROAD TO
> PARADISE. Let's stay in touch! Assalamu Alaikum!
> DEREK: O.K. Assalamu Alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatu
>
>
>
>
> Publication's Source

www.islamworld.net
>
>
>
>
>
> www.dawahmemo.com
>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Frugal house heating: better to keep the thermostat static night?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/674ef4c9a7457ae9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 10:33 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Joe <joe5345@gmail.com> wrote:
> At night I put my thermostat down to 62 degrees and my boiler (hot
> water heat) basically doesn't cycle at all from 10pm to 7:30am when I
> have it scheduled to heat the house back up to 66 degrees. Between
> 7:30am and 9am the boiler cycles about 5-6 times in order to heat the
> house back up to 66 degrees. My question: Is it better to just keep
> the thermostat at 66 degrees all night? Normally it would cycle once
> every 2 hours to maintain the temp - that would mean it would cycle a
> minimum of 4 times during the night instead of 5 or 6 in the morning.
> Anyone done any experimenting with this?

You dont need to experiment with that, you can work it out from the basic physics.

Its always better to do a setback except in some situations
like very poor insulation with a heat pump with aux heaters.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 4:07 pm
From: "Lou"

"Joe" <joe5345@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:95a09070-9b83-4f4d-a58c-938605e7147b@e4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> At night I put my thermostat down to 62 degrees and my boiler (hot
> water heat) basically doesn't cycle at all from 10pm to 7:30am when I
> have it scheduled to heat the house back up to 66 degrees. Between
> 7:30am and 9am the boiler cycles about 5-6 times in order to heat the
> house back up to 66 degrees. My question: Is it better to just keep
> the thermostat at 66 degrees all night? Normally it would cycle once
> every 2 hours to maintain the temp - that would mean it would cycle a
> minimum of 4 times during the night instead of 5 or 6 in the morning.
> Anyone done any experimenting with this?

I've never had hot water heat, so don't know if there are particular
concerns with that type of heat that would mitigate against turning the heat
down at night (like there are with an electric heat pump). But the general
wisdom is that you save money by turning down the heat when you don't need
it.

I don't know what you mean by "cycle" but what counts is the total fuel
consumed, not how many times the burner turns on. Presumably, the burner
has two modes - off and on. So what would count here is the total burn
time. My first guess approximation would be to compare the total burn time
during the night when you don't turn down the heat against the total burn
time in the morning when you do turn down the heat. I don't think one or
two days is enough to form a valid comparison, and you should take degree
days into account during the test period.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 4:53 pm
From: "catalpa"

Considering that hot water heat has a lag time, something about the
information you provided doesn't make sense. In the 9.5 hours from 10 PM to
7:30 AM your house doesn't even lose 4 degrees, but in the morning it can't
keep a 66 degree temperature for more than 18 minutes. Sounds like the
thermostat is turning off the heat too quickly after the temperature reaches
or just approaches 66 degrees. You need a thermostat that has the proper
margin (say plus/minus 1 to 1.5 degrees) around the setpoint to stop the
short cycling in the morning. Sounds like your thermostat's current margin
around the setpoint is a fraction of a degree.

With a properly operating thermostat and heating system the setback at night
is the best way to proceed.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 5:35 pm
From: Anthony Matonak

Joe wrote:
> At night I put my thermostat down to 62 degrees and my boiler (hot
> water heat) basically doesn't cycle at all from 10pm to 7:30am when I
> have it scheduled to heat the house back up to 66 degrees.

You should see some savings by turning the heat down at night.

Usually the lower you set it, the better the savings but in
your case it sounds like your house isn't getting down to even
62 degrees at night so setting the thermostat lower won't help.

Why not just leave it at 62 degrees all the time? Use an electric
heater for a few minutes in morning to heat up the bathroom.

Anthony

==============================================================================
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ee6b99a621960d96?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 10:43 am
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: buy cheap shoes ( www.shoes-ec.com)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/7bfc4f08bcf5218b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 12:05 pm
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Debit card article in Reader's Digest
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/30646f032f4ff9e6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 1:44 pm
From: Greg P

To All,

There is protection for debit cards

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 2:12 pm
From: Greg P

Oops forgot to add this.

To All,

This applies in the U.S.

Not all places take pin based only debit card.

I also check my account online everyday.

For those who are worried about fraud you can have daily authorization
limit lowered but don't lower it too much or you may not be able to
use it on the weekend's or holiday's.

There is protection for debit cards.

For debit card with 2 business days the loss is $50.00
2 to 60 business days the loss is $500.00
60 or more business days all the money plus any overdraft.

Both Mastercard and Visa has extended there zero liability to their
debit cards. If you need to claim this. You will need to request a
special form from your bank. This does not apply to pin transactions.
(However, I think visa interlink may be covered under this but you
would have to prove it went through this network).

Regulation E requires banks to give provisional credit within 10
business day of a written dispute. They have 45 days (90 days
international) to investigate

Technically it is the 11th business day (even if the bank credits you
on the 10th business day, you won't be able to use tell the 11th
business day.)

Another rule that is sometimes overlooked is this

for unauthorized transfers involving only your debit card number (not
the loss of the card), you are liable only for transfers that occur
after 60 days following the mailing of your bank statement containing
the unauthorized use and before you report the loss. This info was
obtained from http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/credit/atmcard.shtm

For that rule above it does not matter if your card was used as a pin
or a signature transaction.

Greg

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Paying Down Debt...Working at Home
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/76e65c908fd6d77e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 2:52 pm
From: clams_casino

maddy wrote:

>Do you want to work at home to make money..there are a lot of scams
>out there.... i am in debt 37K ...check out my website at
>
>
>
>
>
Yours included?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: my brother-in-law's health insurance premium is going from $70/month to
$650/month starting in January
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/7698c1a871cd29ec?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 6:57 pm
From: JL

My 38 year old brother-in-law is disabled (developmental/physical
disabilities, moderate retardation) and lives with us. He gets
$750/month pension through his deceased mother. His private health
insurance through her work was $70/month (meaning he'd net $680/month),
but he just got his January check and they raised his health insurance
premiums to $650/month, so his check is only $100. They never warned us
that rates were going to rise that much. It's ridiculous. If they
would have warned us, we could have signed him up for Medicaid or
Medicare (which he no doubt would have been approved for). We could
have signed him up for Medicaid/Medicare years ago, but figured we'd
keep him off the "governmental teat" as long as we could since his
private insurance was so cheap. He doesn't even go to the Dr. much and
doesn't cost more to insure than a regular person.

These private insurance companies sure are socking it to people. And
also, I think it's not fair that retired workers are dumped from private
insurance over to taxpayer funded Medicare/Medicaid just because they
turn 65. If private insurance co's are going to continually raise their
premiums to these ridiculous amounts, then we shouldn't reward them by
removing older people (whose medical costs are much higher) off of
private insurance and over to taxpayer supported health care. It seems
like all the people who are actually sick or older are just dumped over
to the Medicaid/Medicare system, so the private insurers can save tons
of money, but they STILL raise premiums by ridiculous amounts.

My questions are: how long would it take to get my brother-in-law signed
up for Medicare/Medicaid, and do you think the private insurance co.
will refund part of this ridiculous $650 premium for January?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How to rejuvenate dried out anti-static wipes?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ff0f280a4e123d1d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 5:46 pm
From: Doc

On Dec 31, 6:20 am, sandy58 <Alecki...@aol.com> wrote:

> > I imagine they would eventually, but it's been probably 6 months to a
> > year since they were last used. I recall they stayed good for a while
> > before that.
>
> Bin them.

Nah...Hate wasting things. Since I didn't get any definitive answers
in here, I took them out of the canister, poured in a couple of glugs
of 91% isopropyl, a couple of glugs of distilled water, put the wipes
back in, rolled it around a bit and they seem to be functional. The
basic aroma seems to be about what it was when they were new.

==============================================================================

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Google Groups: http://groups.google.com?hl=en

25 new messages in 12 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Free Werner ToolLasso with Beltclip
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f5b514c7e5534464?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 5:06 am
From: "FreebiesPl.us"

Free Werner ToolLasso with Beltclip
http://www.freebiespl.us/?p=387

==============================================================================
TOPIC: cheap AK APE CHL EVS ed hardy D&G DG BBC AF LRG POLO COACH lv ggg bags
Wholesale $29.99
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e46cc3dcd64a4108?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 5:10 am
From: yuwenwu011@gmail.com

http://www.silkonroad.com/index/news.asp
http://www.silkonroad.com/index/faq.asp
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http://www.silkonroad.com/index/register.asp

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 5:09 am
From: "Chloe"

"timeOday" <timeOday-UNSPAM@theknack.net> wrote in message
news:5-qdnUmxseBwauranZ2dnUVZ_tzinZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> For a dozen calls per year, I really think a payphone is your best bet.
> Each call will be a ripoff, but I think you'll still come out ahead.

Depends on whether the OP wants to be able to use the phone at a given
location or in an emergency. In the Midwestern metro area where I live, pay
phones are nearly nonexistent. I believe this is a national trend.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 6:24 am
From: "Evelyn C. Leeper"

Chloe wrote:
> "timeOday" <timeOday-UNSPAM@theknack.net> wrote in message
> news:5-qdnUmxseBwauranZ2dnUVZ_tzinZ2d@comcast.com...
>> For a dozen calls per year, I really think a payphone is your best bet.
>> Each call will be a ripoff, but I think you'll still come out ahead.
>
> Depends on whether the OP wants to be able to use the phone at a given
> location or in an emergency. In the Midwestern metro area where I live, pay
> phones are nearly nonexistent. I believe this is a national trend.

When we were driving on the Trans-Canada Highway, we stopped at a truck
stop. Every booth had its own pay phone! I suspect that pretty soon
the only places with pay phones will be truck stops, airports, schools
and libraries, and other places which have large numbers of people who
need to make calls but may not have cell phones.

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
I believe I found the missing link between animal
and civilized man. It is us. -Konrad Lorenz

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 7:50 am
From:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply" <mmeahan@TRASHsonic.net> wrote in
message news:47788448$0$84203$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> Doc wrote:
>> There are maybe half a dozen or fewer times a year when it might be
>> convenient to have a cel phone, but I don't feel like tithing for a
>> monthly fee for this little usage. Any opinions as to the best
>> provider for a very occasional user?
>

My Tracfone costs me $6.50 a month. I just renewed for a full year with 250
minutes for $99 and then was able to add another full year for half price.
If you use it a lot you will run out of minutes, but I've had my phone for 5
years and I have over 700 minutes currently, and I've never had to add any.
I only use this phone for emergencies or when I'm traveling, which isn't
often.

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 5:38 am
From: meteore

Hi,

I am thinking of trading in my Camry for a smaller car.

In your opinion, which of the above small cars would last me longer,
give better gas mileage, be more reliable and have less upkeep,
insofar as parts wearing out?

I am only one person and I do not need a large car.

Thanking you in advance for your opinions.

Roger

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 5:47 am
From: Just A User

meteore wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am thinking of trading in my Camry for a smaller car.
>
> In your opinion, which of the above small cars would last me longer,
> give better gas mileage, be more reliable and have less upkeep,
> insofar as parts wearing out?
>
> I am only one person and I do not need a large car.
>
> Thanking you in advance for your opinions.
>
> Roger

Well in my opinion I would choose the Toyota over the Honda, and then
the Honda over the Mazda. I have owned a Toyota and a Mazda. The Toyota
was more reliable. I have never owned a Honda, but know some who have
and they have nothing bad to say about them.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 6:28 am
From: "Joe"

Personally, Corolla or small Mazda would be my choice.

Joe in Northern, NJ - V#8013-R

Currently Riding The "Mother Ship"
http://yunx.com/valk.htm

Ride a motorcycle in or near NJ?
http://tinyurl.com/5apkg

"meteore" <bigrog98@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ff7d25ae-efbc-4eab-b85c-9a20092055cd@f3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> Hi,
>
> I am thinking of trading in my Camry for a smaller car.
>
> In your opinion, which of the above small cars would last me longer,
> give better gas mileage, be more reliable and have less upkeep,
> insofar as parts wearing out?
>
> I am only one person and I do not need a large car.
>
> Thanking you in advance for your opinions.
>
> Roger

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 7:08 am
From: Shawn Hirn

In article
<ff7d25ae-efbc-4eab-b85c-9a20092055cd@f3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
meteore <bigrog98@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am thinking of trading in my Camry for a smaller car.
>
> In your opinion, which of the above small cars would last me longer,
> give better gas mileage, be more reliable and have less upkeep,
> insofar as parts wearing out?
>
> I am only one person and I do not need a large car.
>
> Thanking you in advance for your opinions.

Check Consumer Reports, and the other car buying guides for their
reliability assessments.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 7:53 am
From: "Dave L"

For reliability and gas mileage I'd go with the Civic or Corolla. The
Corolla has been out for a while but I believe the redesign is coming out
for '09. I know a few people who has the newer Civic and love it, although
I have not personally driven it. I'm assuming you mean the Mazda3, which is
a really fun car to drive. The reliability is supposed to be decent but I
didn't care for their dealerships and sales managers/reps. Upkeep will
probably be better with the Civic and Corolla.

The Corolla is a smoother riding car but to me it's a little boring. The
new Civic has been getting excellent reviews and the drive is a little
sportier than the Corolla. The Mazda3 (2.3 liter version) is a blast to
drive. I test drove all 3 in '05 when I was shopping for a new car but the
new Civic wasn't out yet.

Do you consider how a car drives as well? Test drive all 3 and see what you
think. DO NOT let them pressure you into buying on the spot! Negotiate and
take your time. Car dealers are slow now anyway so they'll be calling you
back.

For the reasons you listed, I'd go with: 1) Civic 2) Corolla 3) Mazda3
For my personal reasons, I'd go with: 1) Civic 2) Mazda3 3) Corolla

All the cars I test drove were manual transmission.

-Dave
btw - In '05, I ended up going with an Accord with manual tranny. Was able
to get it to an excellent price, and it still runs great.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Yet another Best Buy consumer horror story -- woman tasered by cop.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8fc4714b1a22ea0e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 5:39 am
From: clams_casino

Joel Koltner wrote:

>Have you noticed, Rod, that a lot more people seem to disagree with you than
>agree with you? I respect your opinion, but right now I'm very glad we live
>in (more or less of) a democracy!
>
>
>

You have that backwards. Rod disagrees with everyone (read troll).
He frequently takes both sides of an issue - just to be argumentative.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 5:41 am
From: Joe

At night I put my thermostat down to 62 degrees and my boiler (hot
water heat) basically doesn't cycle at all from 10pm to 7:30am when I
have it scheduled to heat the house back up to 66 degrees. Between
7:30am and 9am the boiler cycles about 5-6 times in order to heat the
house back up to 66 degrees. My question: Is it better to just keep
the thermostat at 66 degrees all night? Normally it would cycle once
every 2 hours to maintain the temp - that would mean it would cycle a
minimum of 4 times during the night instead of 5 or 6 in the morning.
Anyone done any experimenting with this?

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 5:43 am
From: So_Boya@yahoo.com

On Dec 30, 4:56 pm, Al Bundy <MSfort...@mcpmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 30, 2:15 pm, So_B...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 30, 8:05 am, Shawn Hirn <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > In article <n7edn3h4akltdlkbv1mq1tv05dnvb8c...@4ax.com>,
> > > Scott in SoCal <scottenazt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 11:56:55 -0800 (PST), Harry K
> > > > <turnkey4...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >You apparently missed the "insufficient evidence" bit. It happens all
> > > > >the time, even in outright murders by violence. If the PA doesn't
> > > > >have a reasonable chance to prove the case, he won't prosecute.
>
> > > > Brandy rear-ends another car on the freeway, forcing it into several
> > > > other cars and killing the driver. Just how much more evidence does he
> > > > need to get a conviction?
>
> > > Gross negligence. Accidents are not a criminal issue if there is no DUI
> > > or other criminal violation involved.
>
> > Troll Shame Him...
> > why do you not see it that way if careless smoking caused a fire?
> > Now an accident is an accident and someone died...
> > There seems to be a double standard there.
>
> > OP' s reaseach before you talk to this troll.
> > see linkshttp://tinyurl.com/yuzruwhttp://tinyurl.com/2ow4mm
>
> > This asshole knows everything...
> > or just lies that he does.
> > 'xcept respect.
>
> > Ply the boots if you find him in here.
>
> > If you don't like it...
> > So Boya
>
> So you got a bug up your ass. Who the hell else cares?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

With 817 post to the cheapskates division you must be a
real friend of the fiend.

Bundy

http://tinyurl.com/2o95d8

Boya
http://tinyurl.com/36opq9

Hirn
http://tinyurl.com/2kdgqg

As you can see..If you spend a little time in the
records this anti social person Hirn, need the boots
plied to em.

As I have many friends and fam in Mi,
I'd like to have your help stomp this out.

Which list do you choose Bundy?

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 6:58 am
From: Shawn Hirn

In article
<c841d205-74ec-461b-acc1-197b33c1d25f@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
So_Boya@yahoo.com wrote:

> On Dec 30, 8:05 am, Shawn Hirn <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > In article <n7edn3h4akltdlkbv1mq1tv05dnvb8c...@4ax.com>,
> > Scott in SoCal <scottenazt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 11:56:55 -0800 (PST), Harry K
> > > <turnkey4...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > >You apparently missed the "insufficient evidence" bit. It happens all
> > > >the time, even in outright murders by violence. If the PA doesn't
> > > >have a reasonable chance to prove the case, he won't prosecute.
> >
> > > Brandy rear-ends another car on the freeway, forcing it into several
> > > other cars and killing the driver. Just how much more evidence does he
> > > need to get a conviction?
> >
> > Gross negligence. Accidents are not a criminal issue if there is no DUI
> > or other criminal violation involved.
>
>
> Troll Shame Him...
> why do you not see it that way if careless smoking caused a fire?
> Now an accident is an accident and someone died...
> There seems to be a double standard there.

Where did I say anything about accusing the person in this story of
criminal conduct? I agree that accidents happen all the time and locking
up someone because of an accident is foolish, especially when that
person became a corpse due to the accident.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 8:09 am
From: So_Boya@yahoo.com

On Dec 31, 9:58 am, Shawn Hirn <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
> In article
> <c841d205-74ec-461b-acc1-197b33c1d...@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
>
>
> So_B...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Dec 30, 8:05 am, Shawn Hirn <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > In article <n7edn3h4akltdlkbv1mq1tv05dnvb8c...@4ax.com>,
> > > Scott in SoCal <scottenazt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 11:56:55 -0800 (PST), Harry K
> > > > <turnkey4...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >You apparently missed the "insufficient evidence" bit. It happens all
> > > > >the time, even in outright murders by violence. If the PA doesn't
> > > > >have a reasonable chance to prove the case, he won't prosecute.
>
> > > > Brandy rear-ends another car on the freeway, forcing it into several
> > > > other cars and killing the driver. Just how much more evidence does he
> > > > need to get a conviction?
>
> > > Gross negligence. Accidents are not a criminal issue if there is no DUI
> > > or other criminal violation involved.
>
> > Troll Shame Him...
> > why do you not see it that way if careless smoking caused a fire?
> > Now an accident is an accident and someone died...
> > There seems to be a double standard there.
>
> Where did I say anything about accusing the person in this story of
> criminal conduct? I agree that accidents happen all the time and locking
> up someone because of an accident is foolish, especially when that
> person became a corpse due to the accident.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Troll Shame Him..
My post involved more than in this story,
You play dumbo all the time to cover your ass.
Here's what you post don't play dumb.

accidential fires
smoker can't have accidents?
They should be arrested...huh

http://tinyurl.com/yukaez

http://tinyurl.com/2f8vv6

You ever had an accident??
http://tinyurl.com/ysp7dj

You' ve had so many I going to have to put
in a watch alert to clue.

Your Insurance should be 16K per yr.
Otherwise any company insuring you
has an elevated risk factor.
Guarenteed to lose money.

Just like the smokers health insurance rates.. Eh?

Even at 16 k 1 good lawsuit for 500K
(the avg today ) would break the bank.

Me 1 minor fender bender 20 yrs.
total damage 350.00

Nobody has that many accidents that is
not criminal. Yet you troll to tout.

So Boya

sr. robert, nizo and others that want to
rid us of the troll...
e me it works....Just what the header says.

let's get a letter together and get comcast
a UDP for this guy.

Maybe we can do all 4 trolls

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Cheap survival idea to stay warm?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/b29f75b086954dfc?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 5:52 am
From: "Stormin Mormon"

One time while riding in a truck, my feetsies really got cold. I had to
finagle a piece of cardboard to put on the floor, help keep my feet off the
cold metal floor boards.

Christopher A. Young
.
.

"Gunner Asch" <gunner@Nospam.lightspeed.net> wrote in message
news:ot9gn39u5c1ggnmsa2sltc13602k5o0ven@4ax.com...
On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 18:50:23 -0500, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:

> Years ago I had a commercial product that had a rectangular duct
>about 2" x 8" that ran from near the ceiling and was exhausted by a
>squirrel cage fan at the bottom. In my house I'm seeing a couple
>degrees difference from near the floor to near the ceiling, not worth
>bothering with I think. I have one room with an uninsulated floor and
>the temp gradiant is about the same there; although the room is overall
>cooler.

Its worked very well for me, for years. It does require a fair sized
fan with some suck to it for it to pull a fair amount of air off the
ceiling.

Thinking back on it..I made some 6" ones for some guard shacks we
had, that had an electric heater. Guards were complaining they were
sweating while their feet froze. Put one in each shack, they stopped
bitching and thanked me.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 7:21 am
From: Jeff

Gunner Asch wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 18:50:23 -0500, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>
>> Gunner Asch wrote:
>>> On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 10:27:19 -0500, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Stormin Mormon wrote:
>>>>> You can not get a bumble bee to fly.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, actually, both have been done for centuries.
>>>>>
>>>> Actually a good analogy.
>>>>
>>>> A bumble bee falls from the sky the moment it stops burning energy
>>>> buzzing. Just as there is no glide path for a bumble bee there is little
>>>> for an uninsulated house. It has a low thermal time constant and loses
>>>> heat rapidly, hence you have to keep the heat going, or at least not
>>>> leave it off long. Radiant heat sources, like those oil filled heaters,
>>>> work better in such an environment.
>>>>
>>>> Jeff
>>>
>>> True indeed.
>>>
>>> Good analogy
>> How's the ceiling to floor ducts working out?
>>
>> Years ago I had a commercial product that had a rectangular duct
>> about 2" x 8" that ran from near the ceiling and was exhausted by a
>> squirrel cage fan at the bottom. In my house I'm seeing a couple
>> degrees difference from near the floor to near the ceiling, not worth
>> bothering with I think. I have one room with an uninsulated floor and
>> the temp gradiant is about the same there; although the room is overall
>> cooler.
>
> Its worked very well for me, for years. It does require a fair sized
> fan with some suck to it for it to pull a fair amount of air off the
> ceiling.
>
> Thinking back on it..I made some 6" ones for some guard shacks we
> had, that had an electric heater. Guards were complaining they were
> sweating while their feet froze. Put one in each shack, they stopped
> bitching and thanked me.
>> I think hot ceilings may be due to the heater output temp, overall
>> hotter air tending to rise more than more mildly warmed or radiant
>> heating that indirectly heats the air. I don't know... I suppose air
>> infiltration plays a part in cooling leaky floors.
>
> Hot air rises. It stays as high up as possible, with a big thermal
> gradiant from floor to ceiling. Get it circulating, mixing the
> air..works good.

Thanks. I bought an IR thermometer some time back and it is great fun
finding cold air leaks and temperature gradients. I'll do some more
experimenting because I'm just not seeing temperature gradients with
mostly radiant heat (I have no central forced air, a few small ceramic
heaters in the bathrooms though). The good results with the guard shack
lead me to believe this mix em up works well when you have high air
infiltration. I'll see where else it works...

At any rate, warm feet cool head is the most desirable heat. People
with radiant floors love them!

Here's something on temperature gradients of radiant versus forced air:

<URL:

http://www.buildingdesign.co.uk/mech-technical/frenger-t1/frenger-radiant-heating.pdf/>

Altogether too much here:

<URL:

http://books.google.com/books?id=6rWU0ThKRE8C&pg=PT371&lpg=PT371&dq=temperature+gradient+forced+air+heating&source=web&ots=h_7nwJ6NLp&sig=lZZa3SPxBujAsEyNjI2pCijkPaQ#PPP1,M1/>

All this leads me to think your idea (or a ceiling fan reversed)
works well with forced air and is unneeded for radiant.

Jeff
>
> Gunner
>
>> Jeff
>>
>>> Gunner

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 7:57 am
From: Retief

On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 11:33:03 -0800 (PST), keithcorn7@gmail.com wrote:

>I am living in an old house that was once build for many kids. They
>run around and stay warm. That's why my house has no doors on the
>inside. I isolated the windows with plastic and tape and put curtains
>up to keep the heat of my space heater to keep one room warm. It helps
>a bit but it still feels like in a not very well isolated log cabin.

Did you hang blankets over the open doorways? They'll make reasonable
doors to keep the heat in the room.

>I have a gas heater in the kitchen but the heat goes straight up to
>the ceiling and below, where I am sitting, it stays rather cold and
>gas is expensive too.

Use the gas heater to keep the room above freezing, and use local
heating to keep you warm (i.e. bundle up, use a blanket or electric
blanket, or a radiant heater).

What kind of gas heater? Would a kerosene heater be cheaper to run?

>I am mainly sitting around my desk and typing. I was thinking of
>building something around my desk to just keep me warm when sitting
>inside and doing my desk work and have an electrical heater blowing
>some heat at me. But the heat goes lost in the rather big rooms.

How about a gas radiant heater instead. Point it at yourself.

Take some blankets and make a small "tent" over your desk (keep the
heater away from the fabric, however - don't set yourself on fire).

BTW, get also get battery powered smoke alarm/CO detector -- keep it
near you.

>I have currently no car to transport lumber in my house and start to
>build myself a shed within one of my rooms. I am also not too handly
>with hammer and tools. I know, it is a shame, but this is how it is.
>
>Do you have any ideas? Anything I could order thru the Internet?

Most anything can be ordered through the Internet.

Retief

==============================================================================
TOPIC: RodSpeed, in 2008, man will go to the moon
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/582000bcf0cab547?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 6:35 am
From: KarlMarx_MiddleClass_Ipod_HipHop

It is going to happen.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 6:41 am
From: Jeff

KarlMarx_MiddleClass_Ipod_HipHop wrote:
> It is going to happen.

You must be terribly bored, wherever you are.

Jeff

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Happy New Year RodSpeed
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/66f4252a56af98f7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 7:07 am
From: KarlMarx_MiddleClass_Ipod_HipHop

In 2008, man will land on the moon.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Importance Notice !!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/eb14b0131595a2ba?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 7:13 am
From: "michalis1984@gmail.com"

ENGLISH
================================
Dear subscribers,

I would like to remind you our daily support to our member Michael.
Keep visiting the following link once a day until 1/1/2008. Thank you
all !!

http://www.publicpet.gr/michalis1984/vote

Happy new year and good luck each of you at your personal life, work
and families!
================================

FRENCH
================================
Chers abonnes,

Je voudrais vous rappelez notre soutien journalier a notre membre
Michael. Continuez a visiter le lien suivant une fois par jour jusqu
au 1/1/2008. Merci a tous !!

http://www.publicpet.gr/michalis1984/vote

Bonne annee et bonne chance a chacun de vous dans votre vie
personnelle, votre travail et dans vos familles.
================================

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How Do Work Boots Protect You
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ed2bea657fe29071?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 7:38 am
From: imascot

bs866806@163.com wrote in news:e4bf3ff6-9652-4c30-b49b-
05b2593a850c@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com:

> If you want to purchase work boots why not go to retail store or
> Internet. As a matter of fact, online stores often offer discounts off
> or less expensive prices. It's more convenience to shop online. So,
> once you determine what you need, you can always order your work boots
> over the Internet.
>
> Be sure to purchase work boots that are a match for the function you
> need them. This way you will not be disappointed with your purchase
> and your feet will be thankful you spent the extra money on the proper
> work boots. Now, let see how you can find your work boots.
>
> http://cncarrental.cn/html/goodspeech/20060924/913.html
>

Now why didn't any of us think of this?

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 7:45 am
From: William Souden

Rod Speed wrote:
> bs866806@163.com wrote:
>
>> It should be an obligation for worker to wear work
>> boots when they are in the field or in dangerous zone.
>
> Only in a mindless nanny society.

Like the one that pays your welfare stipend?
>
>> Preventing is better than to cure when unexpected happen to those workers.
>
> Using that mindlessly silly line, you should wear them to bed too,
> you never know when there might be a real emergency and you
> need to be able to run out of the house without injuring your feet.
>
>> You too! Don't forget to wear your work boots when you work outside!
>> You have to protect your feet.
>
> No I dont. I built a house wearing what we call thongs
> and you illiterate savages call flip flops in summer thanks.
>
>> You don't want to face any trouble while working, right?
>
> Dont want to when jumping out of bed either.
>
>> Your work boots will protect you from mud, water,
>
> I appear to have been able to survive both of those fine without work boots.
>
> Cant imagine why for the life of me.
>
>> electricity hazard
>
> Survived that fine too.
>
>> or other unwanted stuffs which you might step on to.
>
> I have stepped on a dog turd at times, and into a
> cow turd once, and managed to survive that fine too.
>
>> Don't worry; you are safe working outside because your work
>> boots have been designed for a wide range of conditions.
>
> So have my thongs.
>
>> The simple waterproof boots are made in different length of uppers and, in extreme
>> cases, thigh-boots called "waders" by anglers end at waist-level of the wearer.
>
> I dont actually work in waist high water very often and expect
> I would survive the ocassional exposure to that even if I did since
> I have managed to survive much deep water than that fine.
>
> Come to think of it, if its deeper, you could end up drowning due to the work boots.
>
>> Who are wearing work boots and what boots are they wearing?
>> Well, these boots are made to protect steelworkers if they get
>> caught in pools of molten metal.
>
> Dont come across that very much in my work. Cant imagine why for the life of me.
>
>> And this goes also for chemical workers.
>
> Dont come across that very much in my work. Cant imagine why for the life of me.
>
>> Meanwhile, workers in Antarctic continent are wearing boots designed for
>> walking in the Antarctic continent which are more insulated and inflatable.
>
> Dont come across that very much in my work. Cant imagine why for the life of me.
>
>> You might want to find the information in MyBootsGuide.com.
>
> Or I might not too. Have they got thongs in there ?
>
> <reams of mindless silly shit flushed where it belongs>
>
>

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 7:46 am
From: William Souden

Rod Speed wrote:
>
> I dont actually work.

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Frugal Living

Blog Archive

Monday, December 31, 2007

25 new messages in 12 topics - digest

25 new messages in 12 topics - digest