Frugal Living: Dec 8, 2007

Saturday, December 8, 2007

25 new messages in 14 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Work At Home - forex trading
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/fbb1482c2c200a1c?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 9:49 am
From: nagi54

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TOPIC: Reverse Hiring Bonus: Legal?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/01bee59f170fec8b?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 10:27 am
From: Jon v Leipzig

Chloe wrote:
> "Jon v Leipzig" <JVL@myday.com> wrote in message
> news:475AB3D1.1060001@myday.com...
>> jdrews88@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> I think that's a dumb idea. Very sad, you think your strongest point is
>> cash in your hand. Any HR person can sense you think you have little else
>> to offer the company, so why should they hire you??
>>
>> Try this:
>> Get a pen and paper, find a quiet place where you can concentrate.
>>
>> Make a list of at least a half dozen reasons why they should hire you.
>> examples; "I'm good at...."" "I have x amount of experience in...""
>
> I'm not sure the OP was implying his strongest point was cash. I think he
> was looking more for an angle that would distinguish him from other
> job-seekers and provide him some kind of relatively unique advantage. Your
> advice, while solid, hardly fits that category. Anyone who's had a single
> successful job interview in their lives knows to apply the general principle
> of what you suggest.
>
> I think the offer to work for free was the best advice I'd seen on the
> thread.
>

I do think it's possible he's convinced his positive attributes aren't enuf.

Obviously, it's been quite a while since he's had a successful
interview. Imo, he's no longer a typical job-hunter. Sounds
discouraged/dejected, hence the advice to write some things down. Maybe
he'll get a Brainstorm of some kind.

If I were in HR, think I'd consider an applicant offering to work 4 free
as maybe too desperate. Besides, a free "trial period" may be
meaningless. Peeps are always on their best behavior initially,
especially if they want/need something. (ask my ex-gf's)

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 8:09 am
From: George Grapman

Usenet2007@THE-DOMAIN-IN.SIG wrote:
> In article <RRH5j.29018$lD6.10460@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net>,
> sfgeorge@paccbell.net says...
>> Lou wrote:
>>> "George Grapman" <sfgeorge@paccbell.net> wrote in message
>>> news:1Mz5j.79375$Um6.7977@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net...
>>>> AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
>>>>> "Shawn Hirn" <srhi@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:srhi-4B6395.22011404122007@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
>>>>>> In article
>>>>> snip
>
>>>>>> I understand that you are desparate for a job, but I doubt this idea
>>>>>> would pan out. Hiring someone is a major commitment. I seriously doubt
>>>>>> $300 would make all that big a difference to a company who could afford
>>>>>> to hire you. What might be better is to offer to work for free for a
>>>>>> week at a place where they might be tempted to hire you, but aren't
>>>>>> ready to make the commitment. Another option to consider is to move to
>>>>>> an area where jobs are available.
>
>>>>> i'm not sure it's legal to work for free (off the clock), even
>>>>> voluntarily, at a regular type company.
>
>
>>>> There are exceptions such as a commission only job. For many years
>>>> those jobs took out out no payroll deductions. The companies liked it
>>>> because they avoided Social Security, unemployment,etc while some worker
>>>> likes the idea of no withholding and they simply ignored the yearly 1099.
>>>> In the 90's the IRS ruled that if the company provides you with a
>>>> place to work along with needed tools you are a commissioned employee
>>>> and are subject to withholding.
>
>
>>> Even in commission only jobs, the employer must pay you a minimum wage if
>>> you don't earn that much in commissions. It's usually done as a draw
>>> against commission, and you pay the employer back when your earn commissions
>>> in excess of minimum wage.
>
>
>> Correct, but independent contractors are exempted. Sometime in, I
>> think, the early 90's the definition of independent contractor was
>> changed to meet the criteria that I mentioned in my earlier post.
>
>
> I know someone who worked on commission in the US in the
> early-mid 90s. At more than one employer. And there was never
> any mention of any minimum wage floor. Just straight commission.
>
> The hours weren't really counted, since there was a required
> latest-starting and earliest-stopping window, but, in practice,
> there was work going on before and after.
>
> Interestingly, the employers also screwed around with the taxes,
> and issued both a W-2 employee form, AND a 1099 independent
> contractor form, with the worker's pay split between the two. I
> think their excuse was related to the worker's vehicle expense
> deductions. Some time after one of those jobs, an issue arose
> where the state tax authoriTAH gave an official confirmation
> basically stating, "You were an employee for all of your
> earnings, and NOT a contractor."

I worked at an office as in independent contractor before the rules
changed. One individual boasted that he always threw away his 1099 and
never paid taxes.One day the IRS called him st work asking him to come
in an work out a payment plan. He hung up. A few days later they placed
a lien on his salary. He quit and found another job. I ran into him a
few years ago and he is pretty much limited to under the table jobs as
any time an employer withholds taxes the IRS pick it up after a few
months or sooner
>
> On those jobs, the total amount earned was OK, because, if the
> worker was productive, then the commissions would add up to more
> than minimum wage times the basic required schedule. But there
> was never any provision for any "guaranteed" minimum paycheque if
> the worker's productivity was lower than that threshold.
>
> Do you have a cite for that requirement? Perhaps it depends on
> the particular state?
>
>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: 5 Best Tips to Earn online
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d460f3165bdb9e75?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 11:15 am
From: clams casino

Maria_Stylish the spammer wrote:

>
>Pls post ur comments thanks
>
>

Your spam is NOT appreciated.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: change
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/dada351212be093e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 11:18 am
From: clams casino

bob@coolgroups.com wrote:

>Let's say you have amassed a large collection of change (pennies,
>dimes, nickels).
>
>What is the smartest way to deal with it quickly?
>
>
>
Donate it to the nearest Salvation greeter / bell ringer.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 12:08 pm
From: Logan Shaw

bob@coolgroups.com wrote:
> Let's say you have amassed a large collection of change (pennies,
> dimes, nickels).
>
> What is the smartest way to deal with it quickly?

In my opinion, the smartest long-term way to deal with change is to find
easy ways to spend it. I put extra change in the self-checkout machines
at the grocery store, and this allows me to get rid of most of it.

However, you were more specific and said you want to deal with it quickly.
I think that changes the question a lot. Since transportation (specifically
gasoline) costs a lot of money, unless you have a lot of change (more than
$50 or something), it's probably not financially worth it to make an extra
trip to the bank even if they would deposit it for free.

So I'm thinking something like Coinstar is probably the best overall
compromise. In some cases, you can get them to convert it without a fee
if you apply the money toward a purchase, and you're probably already
going to the grocery store eventually, so that may be an option. Even if
you can't get it for free and you're paying 8.9%, it still may be worth
that to avoid spending extra gas money to go to the bank.

In fact, what if we do the math? Let's start by assuming your car gets
25 mpg, that your bank is 5 miles from your house, and that gas costs
$3.25/gallon. That means it costs $1.30 in gas for a round trip to the
bank (plus wear and tear on the car and the extra time, but we'll ignore
those). 8.9% of $14.60 is $1.30, so that's the break-even point given
those assumptions, and assuming the bank does it for free.

However, if you have, say, $100 or more in change, I think the answer
is probably a lot different.

- Logan

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 4:52 pm
From: bob@coolgroups.com

On Dec 8, 1:08 pm, Logan Shaw <lshaw-use...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> b...@coolgroups.com wrote:
> > Let's say you have amassed a large collection of change (pennies,
> > dimes, nickels).
>
> > What is the smartest way to deal with it quickly?
>
> In my opinion, the smartest long-term way to deal with change is to find
> easy ways to spend it. I put extra change in the self-checkout machines
> at the grocery store, and this allows me to get rid of most of it.
>
> However, you were more specific and said you want to deal with it quickly.
> I think that changes the question a lot. Since transportation (specifically
> gasoline) costs a lot of money, unless you have a lot of change (more than
> $50 or something), it's probably not financially worth it to make an extra
> trip to the bank even if they would deposit it for free.
>
> So I'm thinking something like Coinstar is probably the best overall
> compromise. In some cases, you can get them to convert it without a fee
> if you apply the money toward a purchase, and you're probably already
> going to the grocery store eventually, so that may be an option. Even if
> you can't get it for free and you're paying 8.9%, it still may be worth
> that to avoid spending extra gas money to go to the bank.
>
> In fact, what if we do the math? Let's start by assuming your car gets
> 25 mpg, that your bank is 5 miles from your house, and that gas costs
> $3.25/gallon. That means it costs $1.30 in gas for a round trip to the
> bank (plus wear and tear on the car and the extra time, but we'll ignore
> those). 8.9% of $14.60 is $1.30, so that's the break-even point given
> those assumptions, and assuming the bank does it for free.
>
> However, if you have, say, $100 or more in change, I think the answer
> is probably a lot different.
>
> - Logan

Do banks typically have machines that process large quantities of

change automatically? Or, are they going to act like you're being a

jerk if you try to deposit a lot of change?

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 5:12 pm
From: "catalpa"

<bob@coolgroups.com> wrote in message
news:442d68e8-1549-4858-85f2-b4b5278ae855@a35g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 8, 1:08 pm, Logan Shaw <lshaw-use...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> b...@coolgroups.com wrote:
>> > Let's say you have amassed a large collection of change (pennies,
>> > dimes, nickels).
>>
>> > What is the smartest way to deal with it quickly?
>>
>> In my opinion, the smartest long-term way to deal with change is to find
>> easy ways to spend it. I put extra change in the self-checkout machines
>> at the grocery store, and this allows me to get rid of most of it.
>>
>> However, you were more specific and said you want to deal with it
>> quickly.
>> I think that changes the question a lot. Since transportation
>> (specifically
>> gasoline) costs a lot of money, unless you have a lot of change (more
>> than
>> $50 or something), it's probably not financially worth it to make an
>> extra
>> trip to the bank even if they would deposit it for free.
>>
>> So I'm thinking something like Coinstar is probably the best overall
>> compromise. In some cases, you can get them to convert it without a fee
>> if you apply the money toward a purchase, and you're probably already
>> going to the grocery store eventually, so that may be an option. Even if
>> you can't get it for free and you're paying 8.9%, it still may be worth
>> that to avoid spending extra gas money to go to the bank.
>>
>> In fact, what if we do the math? Let's start by assuming your car gets
>> 25 mpg, that your bank is 5 miles from your house, and that gas costs
>> $3.25/gallon. That means it costs $1.30 in gas for a round trip to the
>> bank (plus wear and tear on the car and the extra time, but we'll ignore
>> those). 8.9% of $14.60 is $1.30, so that's the break-even point given
>> those assumptions, and assuming the bank does it for free.
>>
>> However, if you have, say, $100 or more in change, I think the answer
>> is probably a lot different.
>>
>> - Logan
>
> Do banks typically have machines that process large quantities of
>
> change automatically? Or, are they going to act like you're being a
>
> jerk if you try to deposit a lot of change?
>

Commerce Bank branches provides free coin counting machine access to anyone
who walks into the bank.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Free Sample Pouch of FiberOne Cereal
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9851d8bf4731a61d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 11:32 am
From: "FreebiesPl.us"

Free Sample Pouch of FiberOne Cereal
http://www.freebiespl.us/?p=284

Enjoy!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Warning about Veterinarians
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9ad7a1a303e4c055?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 11:39 am
From: Chuck Whealton

On Dec 7, 2:33 pm, me <m...@me.org> wrote:
> For a discussion of the money grubbing tactics of tucson veterinarians,
> see recent threads in rec.pets.cats.health+behavior ,
> rec.pets.cats.community and alt.pets.cats.
>
> Being in Tucson I find the vets main concern here is PROFIT above and
> beyone animal welfare. Since many of the people who frequent the usenet
> pets groups work in vet clinics, I thought I was largely alone until I
> happenstanced on this web page, put up by someone I do not know who has
> worked in vet clinics.http://tinyurl.com/2gqn3f
>
> And check out the shoddy job the Arizona State Licensing Board does with
> oversight of AZ Veterinarians (typical do nothing State Gov. with no
> standards)http://tinyurl.com/yq7f9r

Guy, there are probably a lot of vets that DO NOT put profit above all
else. I know how irritating it can be. The vet I've been using for
years left the practice she was at and at her new one (much further
away) they don't even take parrots.

As a result, I'm left going to a place that, as you mentioned, puts
profit above everything else.

I take my Orange Wing Amazon there and each time they want to sock me
with all these checkup charges, charge me outrageous prices for
medications, etc.

It's ridiculous. My bill has gone from around $40 to these jokers
wanting over $100 each time I go there, and right now, I can't find
any other vet that does parrots.

Ironically, as I type this, I see their advertisement to the right of
my screen. Figures...

However, to the point - not all vets are like the bad ones that you
(and I) are stuck going to. I just hope you have more choice for your
animal than I do.

Charles R. Whealton
Charles Whealton @ pleasedontspam.com

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 1:13 pm
From: ok

Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote in
news:MPG.21c426c89e2acb4798b297@news.individual.net:

> Fri, 7 Dec 2007 19:33:31 +0000 (UTC) from me <me@me.org>:
>> Being in Tucson I find the vets main concern here is PROFIT above and
>> beyone animal welfare.
>
> If you're trying to convince anybody of anything, the way to do it is
> not by making broad generalizations like this.
>
> Tucson is a big place; it's awfully hard to believe you know the main
> concern" of every vet in the area. So we're left to assume you've had
> a bad experience with one or two, and are tarring all the rest with
> the same brush. That reflects on you, not them.

You have a point. However I called about 20 vets in Tucson. Not ONE
offered to do time payments, nor reduced fee for those on low fixed
income. NOT ONE. Some said, pay upfront. I said, you mean, like a common
prostitute? They have this kickback scam going with some credit card
company where they take all you personal information and issue you a
credit card from some shyster third party company. None of them do pro
bono work that I was told of. Bunch of mercernaries, imnsho.

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 1:19 pm
From: nope

"Bill" <billnomailnospamx@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:5rvusnF16o53sU1@mid.individual.net:

>> For a discussion of the money grubbing tactics
>> of tucson veterinarians...
>>
>
> Same thing these days with dentists, doctors, air conditioning/heating
> repair people, etc.

Human doctors still sometimes reduce fees for services, and offer
payment plans. But they have the Hippocratic Oath. The vets in Tucson
subscribe to the oath: SHOW ME THE MONEY, FIRST! Air cond. and other
tradesmen are not doctors and someone's health does not necessarily
depend on them. There are not sites on the net, albeit not very good
ones that rate and give consumer reviews for doctors and dentists. We
need such a site for vets so that people know which ones are the most
unprofessional. The horseshit state licensing agencies aren't going to
do anything, nor are the sham professional associations like the AMVA.

>
> This is why I research and learn about things on the internet first.
> Then I know if someone is giving me a line of whooey...
>
>

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 1:22 pm
From: yeah

ok, I know ALL vets are not bad. The vet I had in my home state of MN
would treat an animal regardless of the owners ability to pay. Ditto one
I met in N.M. I never said "ALL", I SAID the vets in Tucson, AZ.

Chuck Whealton <chuck_whealton@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:fbac2fc6-868f-43eb-99fb-8b77dd24279e@f3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:

> On Dec 7, 2:33 pm, me <m...@me.org> wrote:
>> For a discussion of the money grubbing tactics of tucson
>> veterinarians, see recent threads in rec.pets.cats.health+behavior ,
>> rec.pets.cats.community and alt.pets.cats.
>>
>> Being in Tucson I find the vets main concern here is PROFIT above and
>> beyone animal welfare. Since many of the people who frequent the
>> usenet pets groups work in vet clinics, I thought I was largely alone
>> until I happenstanced on this web page, put up by someone I do not
>> know who has worked in vet clinics.http://tinyurl.com/2gqn3f
>>
>> And check out the shoddy job the Arizona State Licensing Board does
>> with oversight of AZ Veterinarians (typical do nothing State Gov.
>> with no standards)http://tinyurl.com/yq7f9r
>
> Guy, there are probably a lot of vets that DO NOT put profit above all
> else. I know how irritating it can be. The vet I've been using for
> years left the practice she was at and at her new one (much further
> away) they don't even take parrots.
>
> As a result, I'm left going to a place that, as you mentioned, puts
> profit above everything else.
>
> I take my Orange Wing Amazon there and each time they want to sock me
> with all these checkup charges, charge me outrageous prices for
> medications, etc.
>
> It's ridiculous. My bill has gone from around $40 to these jokers
> wanting over $100 each time I go there, and right now, I can't find
> any other vet that does parrots.
>
> Ironically, as I type this, I see their advertisement to the right of
> my screen. Figures...
>
> However, to the point - not all vets are like the bad ones that you
> (and I) are stuck going to. I just hope you have more choice for your
> animal than I do.
>
> Charles R. Whealton
> Charles Whealton @ pleasedontspam.com

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 4:50 pm
From: Anthony Matonak

ok wrote:
> Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote in
>> Tucson is a big place; it's awfully hard to believe you know the main
>> concern" of every vet in the area.
>
> You have a point. However I called about 20 vets in Tucson. Not ONE
> offered to do time payments, nor reduced fee for those on low fixed
> income. NOT ONE. Some said, pay upfront. I said, you mean, like a common
> prostitute?

Around here (Los Angeles) all the gas stations require payment up front.
I never would have thought to compare the practice with prostitutes even
if one might be called the town pump.

Here is a thought. If someone can't afford to keep an animal, which
includes paying for it's medical care, perhaps they shouldn't keep
one. Perhaps it's more compassionate to take the animal away from
someone who can't care for it properly than to leave it suffering in
bad living conditions.

Anthony

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 5:42 pm
From: Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply

Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote in
>> Tucson is a big place; it's awfully hard to believe you know the main
>> concern" of every vet in the area.
>
> You have a point. However I called about 20 vets in Tucson. Not ONE
> offered to do time payments, nor reduced fee for those on low fixed
> income. NOT ONE. Some said, pay upfront. I said, you mean, like a common
> prostitute?

The vets here will do things like that for someone they have an existing
relationship with, but I think they have had too many new patients walk
to do it with someone they don't already know.

--
Every job is a self-portrait of the person who does it. Autograph your
work with excellence.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Save money and help kids at the same time
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a97929495be206d7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 12:54 pm
From: silkypup

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TOPIC: JOBS! Looking To Increase Your Income?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c09e9b68d4a09c51?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
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TOPIC: www.200836.com-buy it now ,do you want to buy 2008 peking Olympic games
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/660b609e881f5e98?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 5:07 pm
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TOPIC: Is having a cash cow realistic?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/b8c445778c9fc884?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 5:17 pm
From: letsconfide@gmail.com

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TOPIC: Very beautiful girls and many useful resources and more,please check it
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Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 5:42 pm
From: pegclark

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TOPIC: Help shopping for neices and nephews
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/12d7626c0b564c6d?hl=en
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== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 6:14 pm
From: "Lou"

Ok, over the years I've viewed the Christmas frenzy with equanimity. My
wife and I have gone our own way, some years spending a lot, some years
spending a little. Our natural tendency has been to be generous - within
our means - and to try to give gifts that the recipients would appreciate,
and by and large we've been successful.

But this year is different. My sister has 3 kids (triplets), two boys and a
girl, who will be 10 on Christmas Eve. For the last few years, Dad has
taken them to ToysRUs at the beginning of December, and the kids wander
around the store and make a wish list. This year, the store provided
scanners to the kids, so all they had to do was point the thing at the bar
code to add an item to their list.

So when we've asked what the kids would like for Christmas, there's a list
that each of the kids have put together. While I think that's a great idea,
things are out of hand - this year the cheapest item on each kid's list is
over $50, and frankly, I don't even know what any of these things are except
for an Xbox, but no way are we spending $1,000 bucks on electronic toys for
kids (naturally, each wants his/her own) - we don't spend that on toys for
ourselves.

And, though I hate to sound mercenary, my sister and her husband years ago
put a limit on Christmas spending - roughly around $20-$30/gift. They by
and large stick to that limit, and for themselves don't expect anything more
grandiose, and we've more or less gone along (it's poor taste to up the
ante, after all) but when it comes to the kids, they seem to feel
differently (what parent doesn't?). I find myself feeling that the exchange
of gifts will be pretty one-way.

So, anyone out there with kids around 10 years old? What do kids that age
play with these days? What are you giving them? What are their aunts and
uncles giving them? I know, ideally we'd know the kids well enough to have
some idea of what they'd like ourselves, but they live 300 miles away and
one of the few times a year we see them is at Christmas.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 8:24 pm
From: nospam@nospam.com

On Sat, 8 Dec 2007 21:14:11 -0500, in misc.consumers.frugal-living "Lou"
<lpogodajr292185@comcast.net> wrote:

>
>So, anyone out there with kids around 10 years old? What do kids that age
>play with these days? What are you giving them? What are their aunts and
>uncles giving them? I know, ideally we'd know the kids well enough to have
>some idea of what they'd like ourselves, but they live 300 miles away and
>one of the few times a year we see them is at Christmas.

My ten year old girl wants a creepy crawler workshop (if they still make them)
plastic horses with riders, color wonder markers with paper and tracing paper.
She also wants a cookbook. But I don't know how normal any of that is..

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 8:17 pm
From: Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply

Lou wrote:
>
> So, anyone out there with kids around 10 years old? What do kids that age
> play with these days? What are you giving them? What are their aunts and
> uncles giving them? I know, ideally we'd know the kids well enough to have
> some idea of what they'd like ourselves, but they live 300 miles away and
> one of the few times a year we see them is at Christmas.

I see several options:

1. Tell the nieces and nephews that their tastes are too rich, and could
they please provide you with a list of things that are under $XX.

2. Give them money or gift certificates and let them pick out their own
gift. (You can get targeted gift certificates so they could pick, for
example, a DVD, books, or some clothes or something like that if you
wanted.)

3. Take them shopping after Christmas to pick out their own gift (when I
was a child, I always enjoyed going shopping with my parents for a
birthday present on my birthday -- I always got a choice between a party
or a big present that I could pick out myself)

4. Buy one larger-priced gift that they would all enjoy, if that is
possible.

With that said, 10 is getting to be at the tail end of toys for
Christmas presents, and likely that's why the things they wanted have
increased in value.

--
Every job is a self-portrait of the person who does it. Autograph your
work with excellence.

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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f4c5009897b0f3b8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 6:29 pm
From: globwholesale@126.com

www.globwholesale.com
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: We Want Illegal Aliens Out of NY Out of USA!!!!!!!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/96493c5f219e2cd7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 8:42 pm
From: Louie

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071208/D8TDDFLO0.html

Ariz. Immigration Law Challenge Tossed

Dec 8, 12:41 PM (ET)

By JACQUES BILLEAUD

PHOENIX (AP) - A federal judge has thrown out a lawsuit seeking to
block a new Arizona law that prohibits people from hiring illegal
immigrants and requires businesses to verify whether applicants are
eligible for employment.

The law takes effect Jan. 1.

In his ruling on Friday, U.S. District Judge Neil V. Wake wrote that
the lawsuit was premature because there was no evidence that anybody
had been harmed, and that the plaintiffs - a coalition of business and
immigrant rights groups - were suing the wrong people.

The ruling said the law gives only investigatory authority to the
governor and state attorney general, who were named as defendants.
Wake said county prosecutors, who weren't defendants, actually have
the power to enforce the law.

The plaintiffs had asked for a preliminary injunction blocking the law
from taking effect.

Julie Pace, an attorney for the business groups, said her clients were
meeting Saturday to determine whether to appeal the ruling or file a
separate lawsuit against the county prosecutors. She said the business
groups could pursue both avenues.

Alfredo Gutierrez, a spokesman for immigrant rights groups, said they
plan to refile the lawsuit after Jan. 1, when they might be able to
show damages caused by the law.

A spokesman for Gov. Janet Napolitano said the governor's office had
not yet read the ruling and had no immediate comment.

Napolitano signed the bill in July, saying that while immigration is a
federal responsibility, Congress was apparently "incapable of coping
with the comprehensive immigration reforms our country needs."

The law is intended to curb Arizona's role as the busiest illegal
gateway into the country. The Pew Hispanic Center estimates that
illegal immigrants account for one in 10 workers in the Arizona
economy.

Under the law, any business that is found to have knowingly hired an
illegal worker is subject to sanctions ranging from probation to a 10-
day suspension of its business licenses. A second violation would
bring permanent revocation of the license.

The plaintiffs in the lawsuit had argued the law was an
unconstitutional attempt by the state to regulate immigration, which
is the responsibility of the federal government. The judge's ruling
did not address that argument.

"He didn't uphold the law," Pace said. "He didn't decide if it was
constitutional. We can have that argument another day."

Attorneys for the state say the groups weren't reading the law
correctly and that it does not conflict with federal law.

==============================================================================

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Google Groups: http://groups.google.com?hl=en

25 new messages in 17 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 12:58 am
From: Stan Brown

Fri, 7 Dec 2007 19:33:31 +0000 (UTC) from me <me@me.org>:
> Being in Tucson I find the vets main concern here is PROFIT above and
> beyone animal welfare.

If you're trying to convince anybody of anything, the way to do it is
not by making broad generalizations like this.

Tucson is a big place; it's awfully hard to believe you know the main
concern" of every vet in the area. So we're left to assume you've had
a bad experience with one or two, and are tarring all the rest with
the same brush. That reflects on you, not them.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA

http://OakRoadSystems.com/
"If there's one thing I know, it's men. I ought to: it's
been my life work." -- Marie Dressler, in /Dinner at Eight/

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 6:09 am
From: "cybercat"

"Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:MPG.21c426c89e2acb4798b297@news.individual.net...
> Fri, 7 Dec 2007 19:33:31 +0000 (UTC) from me <me@me.org>:
>> Being in Tucson I find the vets main concern here is PROFIT above and
>> beyone animal welfare.
>
> If you're trying to convince anybody of anything, the way to do it is
> not by making broad generalizations like this.
>

Argue with idiots much, Stan?

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 8:25 am
From: "Bill"

> For a discussion of the money grubbing tactics
> of tucson veterinarians...
>

Same thing these days with dentists, doctors, air conditioning/heating
repair people, etc.

This is why I research and learn about things on the internet first. Then I
know if someone is giving me a line of whooey...

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 12:21 am
From: Usenet2007@THE-DOMAIN-IN.SIG

In article <RQF5j.30598$Pv2.25553@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net>,
sfgeorge@paccbell.net says...
> pepita@prodigy.net wrote:
> > On Dec 5, 10:00 am, "AllEmailDeletedImmediately" <der...@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >> i'm not sure it's legal to work for free (off the clock), even voluntarily,
> >> at a regular type company.

> > Sure there is, it is called an Internship.

> And,by law, an intern can not be performing work that would normally
> be done by a paid employee.In addition the work must be of educational
> value to the intern.

Must... restrain... self...

Must... NOT... mention... Monica... Lewinsky...

--
Want Privacy?
http://www.MinistryOfPrivacy.com/

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 12:48 am
From: Usenet2007@THE-DOMAIN-IN.SIG

In article <RRH5j.29018$lD6.10460@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net>,
sfgeorge@paccbell.net says...
> Lou wrote:
> > "George Grapman" <sfgeorge@paccbell.net> wrote in message
> > news:1Mz5j.79375$Um6.7977@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net...
> >> AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
> >>> "Shawn Hirn" <srhi@comcast.net> wrote in message
> >>> news:srhi-4B6395.22011404122007@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
> >>>> In article
> >>> snip

> >>>> I understand that you are desparate for a job, but I doubt this idea
> >>>> would pan out. Hiring someone is a major commitment. I seriously doubt
> >>>> $300 would make all that big a difference to a company who could afford
> >>>> to hire you. What might be better is to offer to work for free for a
> >>>> week at a place where they might be tempted to hire you, but aren't
> >>>> ready to make the commitment. Another option to consider is to move to
> >>>> an area where jobs are available.

> >>> i'm not sure it's legal to work for free (off the clock), even
> >>> voluntarily, at a regular type company.

> >> There are exceptions such as a commission only job. For many years
> >> those jobs took out out no payroll deductions. The companies liked it
> >> because they avoided Social Security, unemployment,etc while some worker
> >> likes the idea of no withholding and they simply ignored the yearly 1099.
> >> In the 90's the IRS ruled that if the company provides you with a
> >> place to work along with needed tools you are a commissioned employee
> >> and are subject to withholding.

> > Even in commission only jobs, the employer must pay you a minimum wage if
> > you don't earn that much in commissions. It's usually done as a draw
> > against commission, and you pay the employer back when your earn commissions
> > in excess of minimum wage.

> Correct, but independent contractors are exempted. Sometime in, I
> think, the early 90's the definition of independent contractor was
> changed to meet the criteria that I mentioned in my earlier post.

I know someone who worked on commission in the US in the
early-mid 90s. At more than one employer. And there was never
any mention of any minimum wage floor. Just straight commission.

The hours weren't really counted, since there was a required
latest-starting and earliest-stopping window, but, in practice,
there was work going on before and after.

Interestingly, the employers also screwed around with the taxes,
and issued both a W-2 employee form, AND a 1099 independent
contractor form, with the worker's pay split between the two. I
think their excuse was related to the worker's vehicle expense
deductions. Some time after one of those jobs, an issue arose
where the state tax authoriTAH gave an official confirmation
basically stating, "You were an employee for all of your
earnings, and NOT a contractor."

On those jobs, the total amount earned was OK, because, if the
worker was productive, then the commissions would add up to more
than minimum wage times the basic required schedule. But there
was never any provision for any "guaranteed" minimum paycheque if
the worker's productivity was lower than that threshold.

Do you have a cite for that requirement? Perhaps it depends on
the particular state?

--
Earn Money With Your Web Site
http://www.WebSponsorZone.Net
Web Site Advertising Directory

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 12:54 am
From: Usenet2007@THE-DOMAIN-IN.SIG

In article <efb432f6-888e-40b8-a522-
158de3da8260@b15g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, skarkada@gmail.com
says...
> For the original poster:
> You have three choices.
> (1) Acquire a skill that is in demand in your area
> (2) Move to an area where there is demand for your skills
> (3) Suffer

> For Mr. Grapman:
> I like your way of filtering resumes and candidates. But, I know a few
> hiring managers that are easily impressed by a long resume and by a
> number of buzz words like "interfaced" "liaison" "paradigm"
> "strategic", etc. It is generally hard to impress everyone with one
> resume. It also matters as to what kind of job you are looking for. A
> lathe operator (turner) has no business putting buzz words in the
> resume.

I propose a synergistic relationship with your organisation, in
which we mutually leverage solutions.

I flip the burgers, and you pay me five bucks an hour.

--
Earn Money With Your Web Site
http://www.WebSponsorZone.Net
Web Site Advertising Directory

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 7:10 am
From: Jon v Leipzig

jdrews88@yahoo.com wrote:
> Hello. I have a question that I hope I can receive some feedback on.
>
> I'm thinking of perhaps offering a potential employer an amount of
> money so that I can get a job.
>
> I'm talking about maybe $300.00 or so. This would be a kind of
> "reverse hiring bonus" I guess.
>
> This is not a plan to offer some human resource person a "bribe" to
> pick me over the other candidates. I would be offering this money to
> the company itself (or small business).
>
> What do you guys think? This is a serious post and I'm open to all
> comments.
>
I think that's a dumb idea. Very sad, you think your strongest point is
cash in your hand. Any HR person can sense you think you have little
else to offer the company, so why should they hire you??

Try this:
Get a pen and paper, find a quiet place where you can concentrate.

Make a list of at least a half dozen reasons why they should hire you.
examples; "I'm good at...."" "I have x amount of experience in...""

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 7:45 am
From: "Chloe"

"Jon v Leipzig" <JVL@myday.com> wrote in message
news:475AB3D1.1060001@myday.com...
> jdrews88@yahoo.com wrote:

> I think that's a dumb idea. Very sad, you think your strongest point is
> cash in your hand. Any HR person can sense you think you have little else
> to offer the company, so why should they hire you??
>
> Try this:
> Get a pen and paper, find a quiet place where you can concentrate.
>
> Make a list of at least a half dozen reasons why they should hire you.
> examples; "I'm good at...."" "I have x amount of experience in...""

I'm not sure the OP was implying his strongest point was cash. I think he
was looking more for an angle that would distinguish him from other
job-seekers and provide him some kind of relatively unique advantage. Your
advice, while solid, hardly fits that category. Anyone who's had a single
successful job interview in their lives knows to apply the general principle
of what you suggest.

I think the offer to work for free was the best advice I'd seen on the
thread.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: cell phones
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/49bd2738762ff58b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 1:07 am
From: abx

Can anyone tell me whether there is a dealer or seller or manufacturer
of a cell phone that will sell me a cell phone and let me pay for only
the calls that I make (even though it would be at a relatively high
price)? Thank you very much.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: My Online SPame
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1d7d598894edfb3b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 2:00 am
From: "catseyes99@gmail.com"

On Nov 29, 2:16 pm, clams casino <PeterGrif...@drunkin-clam.com>
wrote:
> catseye...@gmail.com wrote:
> >Hello everyone,
>
> >Thank you,
> >Jan
> >www.spamreasures99.com
>
> Hopefully with enough complaints to ab...@qwest.net, your spam will be
> halted.

I don't really understand your message. I'm new in this thing called
blogs and was told to introduce myself and to ask if anyone was
interested in talking about the problems they have with online
businesses. I have no clue to what a usenet is or what type of stuff
you talk about. That's what I'm trying to learn. So I don't care what
you think, I'm not spamming, just trying to figure out how this darn
thing works and was following the advise of google in trying to find
the right blogs to go to.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 2:06 am
From: "catseyes99@gmail.com"

On Nov 29, 3:13 pm, George Grapman <sfgeo...@paccbell.net> wrote:
> Always trust a poster from gmail with a web site that has no contact
> information.

I'm not sure what you are saying. Are you giving advise to trust
posters with gmail and no contact information or are you saying that I
don't have any contact information? I'm completely new at this and
find it confusing. I'm trying to find blogs that talk about their
online businesses and their problems with them. If you have a problem
with it, that's fine. I'm just trying to find a blog that fits my
interests and was told to introduce myself and get my feet wet.
I also don't understand what you mean about no contact information? My
gmail address is listed. Is there suppose to be more than that. I
didn't see any on your profile when I clicked on your name. Is there
somewhere else that I should go to for placing my contact information.
I really don't want to give out more than what is needed though.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 2:54 am
From: Anthony Matonak

>> catseye...@gmail.com wrote: <spam, spam, spam, wonderful spam>
>
> I don't really understand your message. I'm new in this thing called
> blogs and was told to introduce myself and to ask if anyone was
> interested in talking about the problems they have with online
> businesses. I have no clue to what a usenet is or what type of stuff
> you talk about. That's what I'm trying to learn. So I don't care what
> you think, I'm not spamming, just trying to figure out how this darn
> thing works and was following the advise of google in trying to find
> the right blogs to go to.

A good suggestion is to try to learn before you put your foot in it.

Try using www.google.com to find out what usenet is first.
Here, I will help and give you a link.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=usenet+faq&btnG=Google+Search

Usenet is not a blog. Ironically, one of the major problems with
online businesses is their wanton pollution of usenet with their
spam, just like what you did.

I don't care what you think, you were spamming. If you really are
just ignorant about usenet then you can learn and never make such
a mess in public again.

Anthony

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Ways to make money online / Earn $ 10000 per Month
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/915482e1a7f40b06?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 2:30 am
From: eliza2cool@gmail.com

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: cheapest wholesale Air JORDAN MAX CHANEL LV PARDA GUCCI( www.shoes-ec.
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a3796e4b837a826a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 3:07 am
From: yifeng01@gmail.com

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TOPIC: Who is Jesus?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d4bb018b9e404ec8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 3:24 am
From: aassime abdellatif

Who is Jesus?

Without a doubt, you have often heard the claim that Jesus is God, the
second person in the "Holy trinity." However, the very Bible which is
used as a basis for knowledge about Jesus and as the basis for
doctrine within Christianity clearly belies this claim. We urge you to
consult your own Bible and verify that the following conclusions are
not drawn out of context:

1. God is All Knowing.....but Jesus was not
When speaking of the day of judgment, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a
limitation on his knowledge when he said, "but of that day and hour
knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the
son, but the Father." Mark 13:32, and Matt 24:36. But God knows all.
His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own
admission, did not know when the day of judgment would be, is clear
proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not
God.

2. God is All Powerful.....but Jesus was not
While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the
power he had was not his own but was derived from God when he said,
"Verily, verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but
what he seeth the Father do..." St. John 5:19. Again he said, "I can
of mine own self do nothing: as I hear I judge: and my judgment is
just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father
which hath sent me." St. John 5:30. But God is not only all-powerful,
He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his
own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus
is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.

3. God does not have a God.....but Jesus did have a God.
God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call
upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was one
whom he worshipped and to whom he prayed when he said, "l ascend unto
my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." St. John
20:17. He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My
God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?" Matt 27:46. If Jesus were God,
then couldn't this be read, "Myself, myself why hast thou forsaken
me?" Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's
prayer (Luke 11:2-4), was he praying to himself? When in the garden of
Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup
pass from me: Nevertheless not as I will but as thou wilt." Matt
26:36-39. Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own
admission and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped, and prayed
to another being as God is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.

4. God is an invisible spirit.....but Jesus was flesh and blood
While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that
this could not be done with God when he said. "No man hath seen God at
any time." St. John 1:18. '"Ye have neither heard His voice at any
time nor seen His shape." St. John 5:37. He also said in St. John
4:24. "God is a spirit and they that worship him must worship him in
spirit and in truth." That Jesus would say that no one had seen or
heard God at any time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is
clear proof that Jesus was not God.

5. No one is greater than God and no one can direct Him but Jesus
acknowledged someone greater than himself whose will was distinct from
his own.
Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not
equal, and therefore not one and the same, come again from the mouth
of Jesus himself who said in St. John 14:28, "My Father is greater
than I." When someone referred to him as good master in Matt 19:17,
Jesus responded, "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but
one, that is God..." Furthermore, Jesus drew clear distinctions
between himself and God when he said, "I proceeded forth and came from
God, neither came I of myself but He sent me." St. John 8:42. Jesus
gave clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather than his
equality with God,when he said in Luke 22:42, "not my will but thine
be done" and in St. John 5:30, "I seek not mine own will but the will
of the Father which hath sent me." That Jesus would admit that he did
not come into the world on his own initiative but was directed to do
so, that he would acknowledge another being as greater than himself,
and that he would negate his own will in deference to affirming the
will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One
and therefore Jesus is not God.

Conclusion
The Church recognizes the Bible as the primary source of knowledge
about God and Jesus. But since the Bible makes it clear that Jesus is
not the Supreme Being and the Supreme Being is not Jesus, upon what
basis have you come to believe otherwise?

My brother or sister, the belief that the Supreme Being is a Trinity
is false and completely inconsistent with the words of Jesus as
presented in the Bible. God is one, not three. He is a perfect unity.

If you are interested in the truth about God and your relationship to
Him, we invite you to investigate the religion of Islam.

What is the word of God about Jesus:

A. Regarding Sonship of Jesus:
That is Jesus, son of Mary, in word of truth, concerning which they
are doubting. It is not for God to take a son unto Him. Glory be to
Him! When He decrees a thing he but says to it "Be", and it is.
(Qur'an 19:34,35).

And they say, 'The All-merciful has taken unto Himself a son.' You
have indeed advanced something hideous. The heavens are well nigh rent
of it and the earth split asunder, and the mountains well nigh fall
down crashing for that they have attributed to the All-Merciful a son;
and it behoves not the All-Merciful to take a son. None is there in
the heavens and earth but comes to the All-Merciful as a servant
(Qur'an 19:88-93).

Truly the likeness of Jesus, in God's sight, is as Adam's likeness; He
created him of dust, then said He unto him, "Be", and he was. (Qur'an
3:59).

People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say
not as to God but the Truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only
the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a
spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers. and say not,
'Three', Refrain, better is it for you. God is only One God. Glory be
on Him - that He should have a son! To Him belongs that which is in
the heavens and on the earth, God suffices for a guardian. (Qur'an
4:171)

B. Regarding Jesus being God:
And when God said. 'O Jesus son of Mary,did you say unto men, "Take me
and my mother as gods, apart from God?" He Said, 'To You be Glory! It
is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, You
knew it, knowing what is within my soul, and I do not know what is
within Your soul; You know the things unseen. I only said to them what
You did command me: "Serve God, my Lord and your Lord." And I was a
witness over them, while I remained among them; but when You did take
me to Yourself the Watcher over them; You are the witness of
everything. (Quran 5:116,117)

C. Regarding Crucifiction of Jesus:
And for their unbelief, and their uttering against Mary a mighty
calumny, and for their saying, 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of
Mary, the Messenger of God'...yet they did not slay him, neither
crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them. Those who
are at variance concerning him surely are in doubt regarding him, they
have no knowledge of him, except the following of surmise; and they
did not slay him of certainty... no indeed, God raised him up to Him;
God is Almighty, All-Wise. There is not one of the people of the Book
but will assuredly believe in him before his death, and on the
Resurrection Day he will be a witness against them. (Qur'an
4:156-159)

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TOPIC: Online Porn
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 5:03 am
From: egfryew9

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TOPIC: Free Hat for Plasma User Survey
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 5:47 am
From: "TheBestFreebies.com"

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TOPIC: Milenko Kindl eij
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/48cdbeb28634912c?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 6:20 am
From: Milenko Kindl

OMAHA, Neb. - With extra security on hand and holiday shoppers waiting
at the doors, the Westroads Mall reopened Saturday morning, three days
after a gunman killed eight people and himself at the mall's Von Maur
store.
ADVERTISEMENT

The store, however, remained closed. A spokeswoman said there is no
timetable for its reopening, but the company hopes it will be soon.

Yellow holiday lights brightened Von Maur's exterior, but its main
entryway remained dark.

Outside the mall, two Red Cross vans and a Salvation Army unit were
set up near the food court entrance.

Early shoppers faced wind-chill temperatures of only two degrees above
zero before trickling into the food court or the mall proper, even
before most of the retailers had raised their security gates.

Mall security videotape released Friday shows Robert Hawkins entering
the Von Maur department store Wednesday, leaving, then returning about
six minutes later, clutching his midsection as if hiding something and
stalking toward the elevators.

Police did not release video from the third floor where Hawkins fired
the gun. But a still image taken from the videotape shows Hawkins with
his sleeves rolled up, aiming his AK-47.

Milenko Kindl
Banja Luka
Bajaluka

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TOPIC: Get rid of your financial headaches in 2008
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/56470b01b80333ff?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 6:54 am
From: hylux777

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 7:00 am
From: cheapeshopcn1@gmail.com

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 7:40 am
From: "Gwyneð Bennetdottir"

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TOPIC: Thanks Paulson, you can have it all in real estate
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8fd79ad4b8916c75?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 8:05 am
From: Quality_is_job_one

"I just wanted to give a little DC insight on the bail out
announcement from this week. Now I am hardly a DC insider, but I can
see politics affect things at work on occasion.

"Oddly enough, the immediate pressure of politics doesn't usually
change much of the substance of what happens (remember I am not in the
legislative branch - that may be much different). When a scandal broke
in the papers about something that my office regulates, we didn't
completely shift gears. We went back to see if what we already had in
the pipeline would help. We documented how it would help. And believe
me, a bit of what we were planning got into some higher level speeches
than it otherwise would have.

"You have to look at what was announced in this light. There was
already pressure on the lenders/investors to allow modification of
loans to prevent some foreclosures. It was a little political and a
lot public opinion. They needed to do at least a little so they would
have something to announce to the public to not look like complete
bastards. And they needed to do something to keep a law from being
passed. Even a law being written up and proposed would have cost them
a small fortune in lobbying fees to kill, so cutting this off at the
pass was important.

"I am sure the administration wanted to keep anything from happening
in Congress too. Proposing a small compromise and declaring it a
solution to a big problem is something this administration has done
before (think stem cell research) and it worked for them. Also, this
president is a little obsessed with symbols of leadership.

"So, you have private companies planning to allow a few workouts on a
piecemeal basis anyway, an administration that wants to "lead" but
also wants to cut off the chance of a really big proposal from
Congress.

"Enter Secretary Paulson.

"He puts together a coalition of lenders and tells them to hash out
the standards they would be willing to implement for stalling on ARM
resets. Exactly what they would have been doing on their own anyway,
but all together so no one gets dinged for not doing as much as the
next guy. They hash it out a bit quicker than they otherwise would
have. And Paulson gets the credit. The president makes the official
announcement, but he is really very distanced from this. It has all
been sold as Paulson's doing. I'm sure it was. But if it was something
that everyone loved, the president would have been seen as closer to
it.

"Because they all had to agree to it, I bet this is a little less
generous to the FBs than some of them would have come up with
themselves (more generous than others), though it is probably
happening more quickly than they would have managed. I don't see this
as the start of some avalanche of more and more help for FBs. This is
about all they are going to get under this administration. A
democratic president and congress might have tried to do more, but
they would have found it very difficult to pull it off - pay as you go
being the biggest block and they are very fond of that since it
distances them from the current administration.

"And the negative reaction that a lot of the media is reporting isn't
going to inspire any more big efforts.

"Just trying to calm down some of the frazzled nerves around here."

-from

www.thehousingbubbleblog.com -

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 9:12 am
From: Maria_Stylish

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 9:17 am
From: Maria_Stylish

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 9:45 am
From: bob@coolgroups.com

Let's say you have amassed a large collection of change (pennies,
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What is the smartest way to deal with it quickly?