Frugal Living: Feb 15, 2008

Friday, February 15, 2008

25 new messages in 10 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

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TOPIC: Sorta Off Topic - Looking For Ideas...
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/74df284a95a4127a?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 4:10 pm
From: nr

You could have a silent auction for the motorcycle.

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TOPIC: Use patio furniture as front room furniture?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f67d143f0a103614?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 4:35 pm
From:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"rox" <roxanne.gray@att.net> wrote in message
news:SKntj.607202$kj1.395253@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:fmvbr31bo4bnsfu3eng45gng5arc9v2cd1@4ax.com...
>> Am on a very tight budget
>>
>> anyone ever think abt using patio furniture indoors as
>> front room furniture?
>>
>> You can buy a well made set of patio furniture....
>> chair, love seat, coffee table, end table... for abt
>> $500 total. It is lightweight and sturdy and made of
>> plastic "wicker".
>>
>> Anyone doing it? Work ok?
>>
>> see link
>>
>> http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=2519819
>
> Buying furniture that's cheap but uncomfortable (and be honest no one
> wants to lay on wicker patio furniture and watch TV on a lazy Sunday
> afternoon) is not frugal as you will have to replace it for something more
> functional and comfortable. And patio furniture is rarely "sturdy" at
> that price.
>
> You can buy a full set of real living room furniture at a second hand or
> thrift shop for under $200. Or you can go to yard sales. I live 14 miles
> outside of New York City, one of the most--if not the most--expensive
> areas to live in and I paid $50 for a couch that was in perfect condition.
> I found a sturdy "This End Up" chair at the curb--they are all wood, no
> cushions, and look like packing crates--very easy to clean. I bought 2
> new pillows for it, so that cost me $20. Even with the cost/time to clean
> a used set you'll be better off in the long run.
>
> If you are not in a hurry, you can be selective about what set you buy.
> You might even find one for free on craigslist or freecycle
>

Although...if you're planning to have an outside patio or deck and are in a
temporary need for inside furniture, there's nothing wrong with buying for
the outside and then waiting until the snow melts to move it from the living
room to the deck. We did that when we bought our house and found the perfect
outside set. We couldn't afford both the outside and the living room
furniture at the same time, and we hadn't found anything we loved for
inside. It worked great for us for 3 months, although I wouldn't have wanted
to do it for much more than that. Once the snow melted, I was ready for a
real couch! Good luck!

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 5:57 pm
From: "Lou"

<me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:fmvbr31bo4bnsfu3eng45gng5arc9v2cd1@4ax.com...
> Am on a very tight budget
>
> anyone ever think abt using patio furniture indoors as
> front room furniture?
>
> You can buy a well made set of patio furniture....
> chair, love seat, coffee table, end table... for abt
> $500 total. It is lightweight and sturdy and made of
> plastic "wicker".
>
> Anyone doing it? Work ok?

I've seen students do it, and a couple of people just out of school,
furnishing a first apartment, not started their first job yet. My sister
and her husband bought a small (600 square feet) beach house years ago, and
patio furniture was some of their indoor furniture for the first couple of
years (but had a "real" couch and chair as well).

I wouldn't recommend it unless you have no choice.

You can do better (both comfort and looks) for the same money or less - I
have a full size, comfortable, good looking couch I bought at a second-hand
furniture store. The guy in the store said it was a display model at some
furniture store, and when they were done selling that season's stuff, his
store got the items that were on displayed on the store floor. I forget
what I paid - something on the order of $50-$100, plus a $10 delivery
charge. When I replaced my dining room set (Hitchcock, table and six
chairs, good quality stuff we inherited and used for years, but not our
preferred style) I put it on consignment at that same store - I think we got
$100-$200 for the set. Sadly, that furniture company went out of business
in 2006.

I also have another real couch in my home office - bought on sale at a
department store, covered in the fabric of my choice. It's also a sleeper,
opens up to a queen size bed with a mattress. Paid $200 for it, delivered.

I've had both items for years, and they still look and feel like new.

One day a coworker and I were driving back to the office after going out for
lunch and passed a motel that had a sign out front saying they were
redecorating and selling all the room furniture. We stopped, and she bought
a really nice sleeper couch for $50. That evening she went back with some
friends and they bought two more - and when they got them home and opened
them up, one had a full set of sheets and two good pillows folded in.

When I moved from my first house, I had to get rid of some stuff. I sold a
good, clean, working refrigerator for $50, and a sturdy, like new set of
patio furniture (pvc pipe furniture with cushions) for less than $100. A
few years ago, I gave away a large deep freeze I no longer needed. When my
mother-in-law passed away, we sold her kitchen set (table and four chairs),
two living room upholstered reclining chairs, a bed frame (with mattress)
and dresser, for $85. It was either that or throw the stuff away - I was
more than willing to donate this stuff to some charity, but places like
Goodwill wanted to charge us to come and get that stuff.

This sort of thing is catch as catch can - you have to be aware of what's
being offered, sometimes in unconventional places, and prepared to make a
quick decision and act on it, so it won't do if for some reason you need
furniture right now. But if there's no urgency, wait and look around.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e565eaf98e0e70b6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 14 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 4:53 pm
From: "Lou"

"Tony Hwang" <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Nt6tj.40274$Ly.30911@pd7urf1no...
> >
> Hi,
> EPA figure is based on sea level wht IDEAL driving condition, weather,
> road, wind, temp., etc.

Considering that the EPA's National Vehicle and Fuel Emissions Laboratory is
located in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and that Ann Arbor is about 840 feet above
sea level, and that the EPA conducts its own tests at this facility, I think
your claim that the mileage figures are based on sea level conditions is
suspect.

Considering that starting in 2008 supplementary tests are conducted to
estimate the effects of high speed (up to 80 mph), use of air conditioning,
and cold temperatures (down to 20 degrees F), the claim that current figures
represent ideal conditions also seem somewhat out of sync with the facts.

== 2 of 14 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 5:06 pm
From: "Lou"

<hallerb@aol.com> wrote in message
news:d2cd4f76-5a5a-405d-926c-e20711942f37@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > EPA figure is based on sea level wht IDEAL driving condition, weather,
> > road, wind, temp., etc.
>
> EPA numbers are bogus the worst were on vehicles like PRIUS.
>
> tests always favor the manufacturer..........
>

According to the EPA's fuel economy guide for 2008, the Prius is rated at
48/45 for city/highway. The 2008 model year isn't very far advanced and
there's only 23 2008 models listed in the shared fuel economy estimates, but
those drivers claim actual mileage of 35 to 56 mpg, with an average of 43.5,
I'd say the estimates aren't that bad. The best driver claims an average of
56.2 mpg for 38% stop and go and 62% highway driving - that car is driven in
Arizona. The worst driver claims a mere 35.1 for a car driven in
California - no percentages for city/highway are given.

== 3 of 14 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 5:14 pm
From: "Lou"

"Only Just" <ifixit2@hotmail(dot)com> wrote in message
news:47b573a0$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>
> "Edwin Pawlowski" <esp@snet.net> wrote in message
> news:E7etj.6146$xq2.2565@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net...
> >
> > "Vic Smith" <thismailautodeleted@comcast.net> wrote in message
> >>>
> >>>Whichever figure is right and whatever the explanation, it still seems
to
> >>>me
> >>>that the mileage estimates published by the EPA are too low, and it's
> >>>seemed
> >>>that way ever since I started paying attention (way too many years
ago).
> >>>
> >> Might be they don't account for your driving style. Might be
> >> something else - not interested enough to look into it, but I'm
> >> sure they lab test versus "real world."
> >
> >
> > The news 2008 figures take real life into consideration and are much
> > closer to reality. Previous figures were ideal lab conditions.
> >
>
> It all points down to the fact that average Joe citizen can't tell the
> difference unless he can find out exactly how they take all these
> measurements (The method used and exactly what figures) that each company
> used and how (If they did) manipulated those figures to get the result as
> they publish. The main thing that the Government is interested in is a
> standard across the relevant industry so everyone can make a comparison.
> Justy.

Anyone with access to the web can look up how the tests are done. The
testing protocols are federally mandated, everyone must use the same test,
10%-15% of the tests are confirmed by the EPA, and the only mileage figures
the manufacturers can advertise are the ones coming out of the tests.
Vehicles weighing over 8500 pounds (vehicle, all fluids, maximum carrying
capacity) are exempt from testing.

== 4 of 14 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 5:15 pm
From: "Lou"

<hallerb@aol.com> wrote in message
news:4ee42934-d646-4a41-a191-b01c05be3ada@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 15, 10:33 am, trad...@optonline.net wrote:
> On Feb 15, 8:43 am, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > -
>
> > > The tests are performed by independent labs to the EPA test procedures
> > > and standards. ? It's not up to the maufacturers to decide how to
> > > test, nor can they manipulate the results for the cars. ? Same thing
> > > for the water heaters.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > no the manufactuers knowing the test procedures tweak the product to
> > look as good as possible
>
> Yes, some of that can certainly be going on. But trying to change
> the design of the product slightly to come out better in the standard
> EPA test is a lot different than claiming the tests themselves are not
> uniform because the manufacturer gets to decide the test method, how
> the test is done, etc, and then manipulates the results they publish.

> well everyone knew the old tests werent valid yet it took many years
> to get them changed

Yes, they weren't valid - the numbers they gave were to low - my mileage was
always better than the EPA estimates.

== 5 of 14 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 5:23 pm
From: 58plumbers@gmail.com

> >> A cost that nobody seems to have factored in, is removal and disposal of
> >> the oldwaterheater.
>
> > Cost? I get money for the old units at the recycler, it's an insignificant
> > amount, but probably enough to cover the fuel spent getting it there.

Somewhere I saw the cost as 10 dollars at Home Depot for removal of
the old heater.
That's of course if you pay the 400 dollars for installation in the
first place.
Otherwise, the cost is to leave it outside for a week until someone
with a pickup takes it to the recyclers for you.

== 6 of 14 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 5:40 pm
From: msg

Lou wrote:
<snip>

>
> Considering that starting in 2008 supplementary tests are conducted to
> estimate the effects of high speed (up to 80 mph), use of air conditioning,
> and cold temperatures (down to 20 degrees F), the claim that current figures
> represent ideal conditions also seem somewhat out of sync with the facts.

20 degrees F cold? It is high time that automotive design and testing
accommodate the northern climates where cars last about as long as a snowflake
on a hot radiator. Test in International Falls in February on a track
laden with salt and urea at minus 20 degrees F.

Michael

== 7 of 14 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 5:52 pm
From: Vic Smith

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 20:15:51 -0500, "Lou"
<lpogodajr292185@comcast.net> wrote:

>
><hallerb@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:4ee42934-d646-4a41-a191-b01c05be3ada@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>On Feb 15, 10:33 am, trad...@optonline.net wrote:
>> On Feb 15, 8:43 am, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> > -
>>
>> > > The tests are performed by independent labs to the EPA test procedures
>> > > and standards. ? It's not up to the maufacturers to decide how to
>> > > test, nor can they manipulate the results for the cars. ? Same thing
>> > > for the water heaters.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > no the manufactuers knowing the test procedures tweak the product to
>> > look as good as possible
>>
>> Yes, some of that can certainly be going on. But trying to change
>> the design of the product slightly to come out better in the standard
>> EPA test is a lot different than claiming the tests themselves are not
>> uniform because the manufacturer gets to decide the test method, how
>> the test is done, etc, and then manipulates the results they publish.
>
>> well everyone knew the old tests werent valid yet it took many years
>> to get them changed
>
>Yes, they weren't valid - the numbers they gave were to low - my mileage was
>always better than the EPA estimates.
>
Well, they got farther from your experience. They now say your
highway mileage is even lower.

--Vic

== 8 of 14 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 5:53 pm
From: Vic Smith

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 06:34:01 -0800 (PST), N8N <njnagel@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>
>I still post there occasionally, but a lot of the intelligent regulars
>have left and a lot of idiots and trolls have moved in :( The Impala
>is a company provided vehicle, I don't have any MoPars at the moment
>as my old Dart was a complete beater and not worth restoring, and
>prices of good ones are rising. I do have a Porsche 944 that I bought
>as a daily beater before I got a job with a company car, and my "real"
>car is a '55 Studebaker - just as bulletproof as a MoPar, but
>apparently not as collectible yet, so prices are still reasonable. Of
>course, it's still somewhat apart after I lost my mind after a simple
>gasket replacement turned into a drivetrain replacement...
>
>nate

BTW, I found that the Impala never came with a 3.1.
It's a 3.4 or 3.8.

--Vic

== 9 of 14 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 6:27 pm
From: Vic Smith

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:16:27 -0600, jakdedert
<jakdedert@bellsouth.net> wrote:

>>
>That's because you have access to the recycler, know where it is, and
>have a vehicle suitable to transport...also the time. I know it's
>trivial to many--but monumental to others. I'd be hard-pressed to get a
>50 gallon water heater in my old Corolla, although it could be done
>(it's a station wagon). I'd want to put in several layers of padding
>and some waterproofing. Many would not want to do so in their late
>model Whizzmobiles.
>
>Like I said, I've seen a lot of discarded water heaters....
>
All depends on locale. I replaced mine last year and the old one was
gone in a couple hours. Night before garbage pickup the scavengers
tour this area.
My Corsica sedan isn't much bigger than your car, and I tied the
new one to the roof to get it home, saving 50 bucks delivery.
I use blankets on the roof and lots of rope sideways and fore and aft
when I do that, so it's a bit of a hassle. But I don't want another
vehicle for hauling, since I seldom do it. Don't have space for a
trailer.
If I lived where I had to haul away the old tank, I might just pay for
the install and avoid the hassle.

--Vic

== 10 of 14 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 6:30 pm
From: Nate Nagel

Vic Smith wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 06:34:01 -0800 (PST), N8N <njnagel@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>>I still post there occasionally, but a lot of the intelligent regulars
>>have left and a lot of idiots and trolls have moved in :( The Impala
>>is a company provided vehicle, I don't have any MoPars at the moment
>>as my old Dart was a complete beater and not worth restoring, and
>>prices of good ones are rising. I do have a Porsche 944 that I bought
>>as a daily beater before I got a job with a company car, and my "real"
>>car is a '55 Studebaker - just as bulletproof as a MoPar, but
>>apparently not as collectible yet, so prices are still reasonable. Of
>>course, it's still somewhat apart after I lost my mind after a simple
>>gasket replacement turned into a drivetrain replacement...
>>
>>nate
>
>
> BTW, I found that the Impala never came with a 3.1.
> It's a 3.4 or 3.8.
>
> --Vic

Duh, brain fart on my part. It is indeed a 3.4, which is a 2.8/3.1
based engine. Same basic engine, but larger displacement.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

== 11 of 14 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 6:34 pm
From: "Clot"

N8N wrote:
> On Feb 14, 11:16 pm, Vic Smith <thismailautodele...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 20:53:12 -0500, "Lou"
>>
>> <lpogodajr292...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Whichever figure is right and whatever the explanation, it still
>>> seems to me that the mileage estimates published by the EPA are too
>>> low, and it's seemed that way ever since I started paying attention
>>> (way too many years ago).
>>
>> Might be they don't account for your driving style. Might be
>> something else - not interested enough to look into it, but I'm
>> sure they lab test versus "real world."
>> Think you said you had an Impala, and the 3.1 engine coupled with the
>> GM lockup trans is an efficient combo. I consistently get 30-31 mpg
>> highway with mine ('97 Lumina) over a long stretch of varied terrain.
>> Measured by actual gas pumped into the tank over many thousands of
>> miles. My '88 Celebrity with the 2.8 did about 28 mpg, but always had
>> a heavier passenger load.
>>
>> --Vic
>
> It is HEAVILY dependent on driving style. In daily commuting (DC
> traffic, lots of accelerating/slowing down) I get horrible mileage but
> I too was getting about 30 MPG over the holidays, driving back and
> forth to visit my parents (90% highway) same drivetrain as you, '05
> Impala, 3.1/auto.

Wholly agree! my principal motor is an '02 Ford Focus 1.8 diesel - yes, I
know you don't have that across The Pond. It has just turned 125k miles
today and during that time has done 43.3 miles to the US gallon - close to
the brochure figure though I can't remember the exact number at this moment.
It's been a cracking good motor with little to complain about. If it lives
up to the performance of the two Fiesta diesels I've had, it should be good
for 250k before I either send it to its maker in the sky or sell it for
peanuts.

I gather from recent press comments here in Europe that you are about to be
exposed to high quality diesel motors from Europe soon. They are good and do
not have the air quality problems that you might associate with diesel
trucks. Have you noticed the tightening emission standards for them - both
in the US and Europe? Done me proud with shares in Johnson Matthey!

Diesel needs less refining than gas and therefore less energy in production,
emits less CO2 per gallon and has higher mpg, plus in real life has more
grunt than petrol (gas) units. Go for it!

They also display less variation in mpg between the urban and long distance
figures. In case you think I'm grossly biased, I also run a Peugeot 306
petrol and an 07 Peugeot 206cc diesel - now that's a little monster in
sheep's clothing - either 115 or 125 bhp in a shopping trolley. Great fun
and approx. 45 mp USg. Little too early to call having only done less than
3000 miles as yet.

PS I log all fuel and average over the entire life of the unit.

== 12 of 14 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 6:39 pm
From: "Clot"

trader4@optonline.net wrote:
> On Feb 15, 8:43 am, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
>> -
>>
>>
>>
>>> The tests are performed by independent labs to the EPA test
>>> procedures and standards. ? It's not up to the maufacturers to
>>> decide how to test, nor can they manipulate the results for the
>>> cars. ? Same thing for the water heaters.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> no the manufactuers knowing the test procedures tweak the product to
>> look as good as possible
>
> Yes, some of that can certainly be going on. But trying to change
> the design of the product slightly to come out better in the standard
> EPA test is a lot different than claiming the tests themselves are not
> uniform because the manufacturer gets to decide the test method, how
> the test is done, etc, and then manipulates the results they publish.

Agreed, like installing a gearbox that suits the test conditions rather than
every day use.

== 13 of 14 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 6:55 pm
From: "hallerb@aol.com"

on hot water tanks, in pennsylvania theres no sales tax on a installed
tank, but 7% if you take home and install yourself.

$28 on a 400 buck tank. that taken off install price can make doing it
yourself not worth the effort.

sales tax has lots of wierd rules

== 14 of 14 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 7:08 pm
From: "Clot"

hallerb@aol.com wrote:
> on hot water tanks, in pennsylvania theres no sales tax on a installed
> tank, but 7% if you take home and install yourself.
>
> $28 on a 400 buck tank. that taken off install price can make doing it
> yourself not worth the effort.
>
> sales tax has lots of wierd rules

Yup, sure does. Even here in the UK, we have problems fathoming out Value
Added Tax (VAT) rules. However, I'm sure you didn't mean to respond to my
post! :)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Cheap wholesale air max sneakers: max 87,max 90,max95,max97,max2003,max
180,max 360, max TN,max ltd,max Nz,air max for women and children.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/b8f0581afe172c02?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 5:06 pm
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TOPIC: Cheap shoes $28 (nike , jordan, puma) , Cheap handbag $38 (gucci, fendi,
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9397ccca1cd05c07?hl=en
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Was my home purchase in 2006 frugal?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9d0f58de213b13b6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 5:59 pm
From: "Lou"

"Ron Peterson" <ron@shell.core.com> wrote in message
news:f4fd3b80-6681-4065-b4f4-bf46d73ac95b@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 14, 12:37 pm, Joe <joe5...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I just read this article detailing how home prices in the Northeast
> dropped 4.8% from 2006-2007. I purchased my home in Aug 2006 and knew
> prices were going to drop but our situation left me very little choice
> so I justified my purchase at the time thinking the worst case
> scenario is that my house value will drop around 5% a year, well it
> did, but I still figure that I'm ahead of the game considering 5% of
> my purchase price is still less than I would have paid in rent for
> 2007. That money would have been thrown away never to be seen again
> anyway. Now I know I am still on the hook for taxes and upkeep of the
> house but my quality of life is drastically different than living in
> an apartment so I consider that expense a wash. Am I wrong in
> justifying my purchase this way? Can anyone point out if my thinking
> is off on this?

The rule of thumb is that your house should rent for 1% of its
purchase price.

per day? per week? per month? per . . .

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 6:04 pm
From: "Lou"

"clams_casino" <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote in message
news:Lwgtj.189$QC.155@newsfe20.lga...
> Lou wrote:
>
> >"Joe" <joe5345@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:dd07afed-9e4e-49b7-a94a-515efe282466@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >
> >>I just read this article detailing how home prices in the Northeast
> >>dropped 4.8% from 2006-2007. I purchased my home in Aug 2006 and knew
> >>prices were going to drop but our situation left me very little choice
> >>so I justified my purchase at the time thinking the worst case
> >>scenario is that my house value will drop around 5% a year, well it
> >>did, but I still figure that I'm ahead of the game considering 5% of
> >>my purchase price is still less than I would have paid in rent for
> >>2007. That money would have been thrown away never to be seen again
> >>anyway. Now I know I am still on the hook for taxes and upkeep of the
> >>house but my quality of life is drastically different than living in
> >>an apartment so I consider that expense a wash. Am I wrong in
> >>justifying my purchase this way? Can anyone point out if my thinking
> >>is off on this?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I think you're wrong in even thinking about it until, when, and if the
> >occasion arises where you again must make a choice to buy a house or not.
> >What's done is done, you can't go back and not buy the house, and
fretting
> >over past mistakes or gloating over past triumphs won't change the
present
> >and say nothing about the future.
> >
> >For what it's worth, I bought my present house a little over 18 years
ago,
> >at pretty near the top of the last real estate cycle, and within a year
the
> >market price of the house had dropped around 20%. If I had sold within a
> >year or two of buying, I would have taken a beating, but I didn't and
prices
> >recovered and then some even before the recent boom.
> >
> >One result of that experience is that I don't see that a price drop of 5%
is
> >any big deal - maybe tough on someone who bought recently and must sell
for
> >whatever reason, but in terms of normal market fluctuations no big deal.
> >
> >Do you like living there more than your last rental? Is the after tax
cost
> >more, or less, or the same than it would be if you were a renter instead?
> >If you can answer yes to the first and less or the same to the second,
you
> >have all the justification you should need. Even if the answer to the
> >second is more, you still have all the justification you need provided
> >you're not having problems paying the bills.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Reminds me of my first home. When I bought during the high inflation /
> recession mid 70's, everyone though we were nuts - especially to have
> 6% mortgage. That home doubled in price within 7 years - one of my
> better investments (sold it in 81 to someone glad to find a 16% mortgage).

6%? I felt I was lucky to get a mortgage for only 10.5%. (My daughter had
to walk 5 miles to school too, barefoot in the snow, uphill both ways.) My
parents, especially, thought we were crazy, insane, had more money than
brains. It nearly tripled in price in 10 years.

> It's probably not wise to justify a home solely on investment. If
> investment is your primary objective, you are probably not ready for
> home ownership. There will always be more costs than you can ever
> anticipate.

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25 new messages in 12 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Miss Manners on mooching
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/2df47c14e1b1f6a5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 9:15 am
From: lenona321@yahoo.com

It's the second letter, about elderly singles clubs.

http://www.contracostatimes.com/living/ci_8270178

I found this interesting:

"Miss Manners understands that the time in which domestic work was
assigned by gender is past. But so is the time right afterward, when
both genders were supposed to take turns doing all the exact same
tasks.

"Sensible people have, Miss Manners hopes, come around to realizing
that everyone is happier if allowed to contribute what he or she does
best."

On the one hand, of course, she's right. Plus, bean counting never
makes families (though family is not the subject here) happy.

Unfortunately, one thing she seldom talks about is how it's often a
difference of HOURS spent on work that causes domestic resentment, not
necessarily the type of work done, whether paid or unpaid. Assuming
we're not talking about the expectations of an antiseptic freak, for
example.

Lenona.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Dollar Tree, Victor NY, worst customer service ever
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/afd0336a0edfead1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 9:16 am
From: Steve

Damn, and here I just scheduled a 3-week vacation to Victor, NY. Gotta
run, see if I can cancel those plane tickets...

Even he, to whom most things that most people
would think were pretty smart were pretty dumb,
thought it was pretty smart.

...Douglas Adams

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 2:14 pm
From: "Stormin Mormon"

They still have a Copy Max, and one of the last remaining K-Mart. I'd keep
the tickets. You'll have to check with your tour guide, and change the
schedule around a bit. Find something else to do with the four days you'd
scheduled at Dollar Tree.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus

www.lds.org
.

"Steve" <hgd@wsx.inv> wrote in message
news:f6ibr352dmq1ivtq110ovqso968jli9sf2@4ax.com...

Damn, and here I just scheduled a 3-week vacation to Victor, NY. Gotta
run, see if I can cancel those plane tickets...

Even he, to whom most things that most people
would think were pretty smart were pretty dumb,
thought it was pretty smart.

...Douglas Adams

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Calendar downloads?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/200a513c0b463960?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 9:37 am
From: Tony Sivori

pc wrote:
>
> I'm working in Linux now,

Hey, me too.

> on this computer, and I'm a total n00b. I

I've been at it four or five years now.

> suppose I could fire up the MS computer and look into the word
> processing part. But, with searches..I didn't find much on the web that
> would fit my needs no matter what operating system I use.
>
> It just galls me that Day Runner type inserts are so expensive.
>
> I had hoped with my new eeepc, I would have been able to use the
> Thunderbird calendar extension. This is almost like using a PDA, like
> someone else suggested. But, it's not quite sufficient for me.
>
> So, if anybody has any further ideas I'm all ears.

Not what you're looking for, since there is no space to write, but you may
not have seen this: open a shell / console, type "cal" (no quotes) and
press enter. For a calendar of any year, type "cal" followed by the
desired year. Example: cal 2008.

[user@**** user]$ cal 2008
2008

January February March
Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa
1 2 3 4 5 1 2 1
6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
20 21 22 23 24 25 26 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 16 17 18 19 20 21 22
27 28 29 30 31 24 25 26 27 28 29 23 24 25 26 27 28 29
30 31
April May June
Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa
1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
6 7 8 9 10 11 12 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
20 21 22 23 24 25 26 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 22 23 24 25 26 27 28
27 28 29 30 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 29 30

July August September
Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa
1 2 3 4 5 1 2 1 2 3 4 5 6
6 7 8 9 10 11 12 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
20 21 22 23 24 25 26 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 21 22 23 24 25 26 27
27 28 29 30 31 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 28 29 30
31
October November December
Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa
1 2 3 4 1 1 2 3 4 5 6
5 6 7 8 9 10 11 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
12 13 14 15 16 17 18 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 21 22 23 24 25 26 27
26 27 28 29 30 31 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 28 29 30 31
30

The above calendar may be badly mangled by the line wrap.

Keep in mind the with the Linux command line, you can easily cut, copy,
paste and print.

Moving on to suggestions that may actually suit your needs, Google has a
calendar application:

www.google.com/calendar

Have you tried KOrganizer? It is already installed with the distro I'm
using, under Time Management in the system menu.

http://kontact.kde.org/korganizer/

How to make a custom calendar with Open Office (looks rather time
consuming to me):

http://www.linux.com/feature/122265

If none of the above suits you, it shouldn't take too long to find
something that suits your needs here:

http://tinyurl.com/ytfzq2

Just look for a web page based application that lets you print. I did that
a couple of years ago when I needed a calendar with Julian dates.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 9:37 am
From: Tony Sivori

pc wrote:

> Hi group ..
>
> I am looking for free calendars that I can download. I am looking for
> things similar to the Dayminder, Dayrunner options.
>
> I went to a couple of stores recently and they all wanted a minimum of
> 15 dollars. This seems outrageous to me. Especially because none of
> them were exactly what I wanted.

I've had good luck getting nice calendars for $1 at The Dollar Tree, if
you happen to have one near you. Big squares with plenty of room to
write. Likely it is too late for this year, I'd guess they are sold out by
now.

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 10:17 am
From: jakdedert

Lou wrote:
<snip>
> And let's not forget that in order to drive, s/he needs a vehicle, one that
> is probably more or less dedicated to the business, and that has to be paid
> for also.
>
> According to http://www.careeroverview.com/plumbing-careers.html the median
> wage for a plumber in 2002 was $19.30/hour. Assuming a 40 hour work week
> for 50 weeks a year, that comes to $38,600/year. Doesn't sound like a way
> to get rich quick.
>
The wage to the technician is just a starting point, since few are
independent contractors. Most work for larger concerns who also must
pay ancillary personnel.

> A question on the cost of the permit - how much would it cost if you went to
> the town office and got the permit yourself?
>
>
A cost that nobody seems to have factored in, is removal and disposal of
the old water heater. In some areas of this country, that can be
substantial. In others...well, I've seen a lot of old water heaters
littering the countryside.

Also, access is a serious issue in many structures; and this applies
equally to both removal and installation. I could easily replace the
unit in my basement; but I once had a shop where the heater was mounted
in the attic. That one would have required a couple of guys for a
couple of hours to replace--involving ropes & pulleys, not to mention a
significant amount of risk--in addition to the normal procedures.

jak

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 10:26 am
From: "hallerb@aol.com"

On Feb 15, 1:17�pm, jakdedert <jakded...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Lou wrote:
>
> <snip>> And let's not forget that in order to drive, s/he needs a vehicle, one that
> > is probably more or less dedicated to the business, and that has to be paid
> > for also.
>
> > According tohttp://www.careeroverview.com/plumbing-careers.htmlthe median
> > wage for a plumber in 2002 was $19.30/hour. �Assuming a 40 hour work week
> > for 50 weeks a year, that comes to $38,600/year. �Doesn't sound like a way
> > to get rich quick.
>
> The wage to the technician is just a starting point, since few are
> independent contractors. �Most work for larger concerns who also must
> pay ancillary personnel.
>
> > A question on the cost of the permit - how much would it cost if you went to
> > the town office and got the permit yourself?
>
> A cost that nobody seems to have factored in, is removal and disposal of
> the old water heater. �In some areas of this country, that can be
> substantial. �In others...well, I've seen a lot of old water heaters
> littering the countryside.
>
> Also, access is a serious issue in many structures; and this applies
> equally to both removal and installation. �I could easily replace the
> unit in my basement; but I once had a shop where the heater was mounted
> in the attic. �That one would have required a couple of guys for a
> couple of hours to replace--involving ropes & pulleys, not to mention a
> significant amount of risk--in addition to the normal procedures.
>
> jak

scrap steel has value everywhere, minimial but still a little money.
so you haul the junk heater and get candy bar money. around here trash
takes them but they often get picked up before that

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 10:40 am
From: "James Sweet"

>>
> The wage to the technician is just a starting point, since few are
> independent contractors. Most work for larger concerns who also must pay
> ancillary personnel.
>

I understand a business has to make money, but I don't, I have a fulltime
job, I do this stuff as a favor for friends, hence the substantially lower
price.

>>
> A cost that nobody seems to have factored in, is removal and disposal of
> the old water heater. In some areas of this country, that can be
> substantial. In others...well, I've seen a lot of old water heaters
> littering the countryside.
>

Cost? I get money for the old units at the recycler, it's an insignificant
amount, but probably enough to cover the fuel spent getting it there.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 11:16 am
From: jakdedert

James Sweet wrote:
>> The wage to the technician is just a starting point, since few are
>> independent contractors. Most work for larger concerns who also must pay
>> ancillary personnel.
>>
>
> I understand a business has to make money, but I don't, I have a fulltime
> job, I do this stuff as a favor for friends, hence the substantially lower
> price.
>
I understand that, in your case. The thread had to do with commercial
installers. If we all had a 'buddy named James' there would be no need
for businesses which do this day in/out. In fact, that's the way most
things were done, 'back when', but it's not the norm anymore.
>
>> A cost that nobody seems to have factored in, is removal and disposal of
>> the old water heater. In some areas of this country, that can be
>> substantial. In others...well, I've seen a lot of old water heaters
>> littering the countryside.
>>
>
> Cost? I get money for the old units at the recycler, it's an insignificant
> amount, but probably enough to cover the fuel spent getting it there.
>
>
That's because you have access to the recycler, know where it is, and
have a vehicle suitable to transport...also the time. I know it's
trivial to many--but monumental to others. I'd be hard-pressed to get a
50 gallon water heater in my old Corolla, although it could be done
(it's a station wagon). I'd want to put in several layers of padding
and some waterproofing. Many would not want to do so in their late
model Whizzmobiles.

Like I said, I've seen a lot of discarded water heaters....

jak

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 2:03 pm
From: "hallerb@aol.com"

Funny the title of this discussion was quick basic advice and now has
over 160 posts:)

yep er quick and basic:) Lots of useful info!!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Bringing families together!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3ae2c0262cafb624?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 10:36 am
From: afmtruck

Free* long distance calls for your family and friends across the
globe: they now can call you free*.

No computer, no internet, no hardware to buy and no expertise
required... access to a regular phone is all that's needed! And yes, you
can return their calls overseas for a fraction of the cost and
establish your local presence at the same time. Get your own local
number with MyLocalCall(tm).

Sign-up (it's easy and free) for more details and to see the amazing
rates!

http://www.mylocalcall.com/?ng0215

==============================================================================
TOPIC: WORK FROM HOME WITH INTRNET,HOW?HERE THE ANSWER
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/dbb050e1fa89349e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 11:48 am
From: "mezdek1@gmail.com"

http://glycoblug.webs.com/makemoneywithadsense.htm

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 11:48 am
From: "mezdek1@gmail.com"

http://glycoblug.webs.com/makemoneywithadsense.htm

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Flea Marketing
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d8f649f613287972?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 11:58 am
From: ai9kwsvz

I feel that the best way for you to start out is by selling all of the
items around your house that you no longer want. Please share your
comments.
George
http://www.flea-marketing-secrets.com

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 2:23 pm
From: Al Bundy

ai9kwsvz wrote:
> I feel that the best way for you to start out is by selling all of the
> items around your house that you no longer want. Please share your
> comments.
> George

Saves a lot of time to just throw junk out, part it out, or give it
away. I don't need any $30 book for the purpose.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Stamps to Cost a Penny More
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/729cf5df8392523c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 12:41 pm
From: Terry

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hjB4Dif5oP6LbcPH0zPJAIy37EugD8UOAH8O6

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 12:48 pm
From: clams_casino

Terry wrote:

>http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hjB4Dif5oP6LbcPH0zPJAIy37EugD8UOAH8O6
>
>

A way to make a million dollars - buy up ten million stamps at 41 cents
each & resell them at 42 cents.

vs. the ebay way - start with 2M & end up with 1M.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 12:56 pm
From: Terry Terry

On Feb 15, 3:48 pm, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
> Terry wrote:
> >http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hjB4Dif5oP6LbcPH0zPJAIy37EugD8UOAH8O6
>
> A way to make a million dollars - buy up ten million stamps at 41 cents
> each & resell them at 42 cents.
>
> vs. the ebay way - start with 2M & end up with 1M.

That would work except for the postage costs. :)

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 2:31 pm
From: Al Bundy

On Feb 15, 3:56 pm, Terry Terry <kilow...@charter.net> wrote:
> On Feb 15, 3:48 pm, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>
> > Terry wrote:
> > >http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hjB4Dif5oP6LbcPH0zPJAIy37EugD8UOAH8O6
>
> > A way to make a million dollars - buy up ten million stamps at 41 cents
> > each & resell them at 42 cents.
>
> > vs. the ebay way - start with 2M & end up with 1M.
>
> That would work except for the postage costs. :)

The way this usually works here is that you won't be able to buy
"forever" stamps or the new 41¢ stamps until after they are needed.
All we will see is the old stamps and a 1¢ "make-up" stamp until they
purge the inventory of the old stuff.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 2:34 pm
From: clams_casino

Terry Terry wrote:

>On Feb 15, 3:48 pm, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Terry wrote:
>>
>>
>>>http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hjB4Dif5oP6LbcPH0zPJAIy37EugD8UOAH8O6
>>>
>>>
>>A way to make a million dollars - buy up ten million stamps at 41 cents
>>each & resell them at 42 cents.
>>
>>vs. the ebay way - start with 2M & end up with 1M.
>>
>>
>
>That would work except for the postage costs. :)
>
>

True. The eBay return will likely be only about 1/2M after postage costs.,

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 1:10 pm
From: me@privacy.net

Am on a very tight budget

anyone ever think abt using patio furniture indoors as
front room furniture?

You can buy a well made set of patio furniture....
chair, love seat, coffee table, end table... for abt
$500 total. It is lightweight and sturdy and made of
plastic "wicker".

Anyone doing it? Work ok?

see link

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=2519819

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 1:46 pm
From: "rox"

Buying furniture that's cheap but uncomfortable (and be honest no one wants
to lay on wicker patio furniture and watch TV on a lazy Sunday afternoon) is
not frugal as you will have to replace it for something more functional and
comfortable. And patio furniture is rarely "sturdy" at that price.

You can buy a full set of real living room furniture at a second hand or
thrift shop for under $200. Or you can go to yard sales. I live 14 miles
outside of New York City, one of the most--if not the most--expensive areas
to live in and I paid $50 for a couch that was in perfect condition. I
found a sturdy "This End Up" chair at the curb--they are all wood, no
cushions, and look like packing crates--very easy to clean. I bought 2 new
pillows for it, so that cost me $20. Even with the cost/time to clean a
used set you'll be better off in the long run.

If you are not in a hurry, you can be selective about what set you buy. You
might even find one for free on craigslist or freecycle

==============================================================================
TOPIC: New Low Cost Jewels Make Luxury Affordable For All
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f4f42cc215a86516?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 1:36 pm
From: xikom03@yeah.net

For centuries sparkling, beautiful jewels have been THE sign of wealth
and luxury the world over. Wearing quality jewelry makes just about
everyone feel special and look better. Jewels have had such a long and
lasting importance in our world that we give them as a sign of our
most treasured possession -- a long-term relationship.

Increasingly, wearing fine jewelry can be a noticeable sign of your
success and achievement. Walk into a business meeting wearing an eye-
catching ring, bracelet, or watch and your stature immediately rises
as perceived by those around you. Your ideas seem more important and
your power to prevail increases.

Centuries ago only Kings and Queens could afford jewels. Even in
recent years, only the well-healed could afford a nice selection of
quality jewels.

You could expect to pay anywhere from $800 to $5,000 for a nice piece
of jewelry. That meant either wiping out your retirement account or
making monthly payments, sometimes for years.

Today all that has changed for the better. Recent changes and
discoveries in the jewelry market have made wearing fine jewelry more
affordable than ever in history. Gold rings with genuine stones can
now be purchased online and elsewhere for well under $100. I recently
found a genuine white gold diamond ring for just $129.99.

Another option that is used today to keep the costs affordable is to
use a sterling silver base and coat it with gold. Prior to this
method, the only affordable jewelry was to use sterling silver but it
had the disadvantage of tarnishing. This new method offers many
advantages. It does not tarnish because it is gold plated, it is more
beautiful than sterling silver and it is certainly more affordable.

Those kinds of prices put fine jewelry in a whole new light. For many
of us, the $100 to $150 range falls into the realm of an easy
purchase. You can buy it just because it makes you feel good without
having any impact on your budget.

New much lower jewelry prices mean you can have a different style or
color of jewelry to go with each of your suits. You can have a several-
piece collection of similar designs to go with

http://www.dontplayplay.com/html/Bothsexes/20061002/46985.html

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Sewing Machines: Making A Comeback?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/04891ec8941a20e8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 2:06 pm
From: rota6566@yahoo.com.tw

While we don't have to rely on sewing machines to satisfy our basic
clothing needs, more and more people today turn to sewing to create
unique, luxurious, one-of-a-kind pieces. Every family has that hand
embroidered grandmother's table cloth or a hand-made quilt, and these
pieces are as cherished as the most sophisticated haute couture
creations. And instead of paying hefty sums to someone for creating
these little pieces of luxury for you, you can develop the easy skills
of making your own monograms, embroideries or even hand-sewn button-
holes - all the little luxuries that make the difference.

With the help of a reliable sewing machine, you can instantly
personalize a lot of everyday necessities. For example, you can create
a set of unique napkins or add a classy touch to your bed linen and
bath towels with a monogram. And with a little practice you can even
alter and mend your clothes.

When choosing your first sewing machine, make sure you understand how
much sewing you plan to do. The honest answer will save you money and
time, as you will not pick a too complex and upscale sewing machine
for your basic sewing needs.

If you plan to study sewing and even recreate expensive designer
clothes to save money, you will need a more upscale sewing machine.
Sewing your own clothes makes sense only if your sewing skills are
high enough to recreate high-end clothes, such as suits, jackets and
dresses. You won't save money on sewing your own jeans, because the
pattern, fabric, buttons, and the time spent will make this pair of
jeans more expensive than any of the designer creations. However,
sewing children's clothes does make sense, because you need little
fabric, and you don't really need complicated patterns.

A sewing machine is a great investment for those who have a passion
for clothes design and like to wear one-of-a-kind pieces and don't
want to limit their clothing choices to what they see in department
stores. With a sewing machine and a little patience you have full
control on where the pockets go, what kind of buttons you use, and
where the hemline stops. You should be aware that creating clothes
from scratch or even amending the existing pattern requires

http://www.dontplayplay.com/html/Bothsexes/20061002/46970.html

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 15 2008 3:34 pm
From: "Joe"

> You could auction it off at a charity event. If you do it right, you can
> make money on the event itself in addition to the auction.

Not a bad idea... We are having a beefsteak dinner as part of the event...
Maybe there.

Thank you.
--

Joe in Northern, NJ - V#8013-R

Currently Riding The "Mother Ship"
http://yunx.com/valk.htm

Ride a motorcycle in or near NJ?
http://tinyurl.com/hmzj
http://tinyurl.com/5apkg

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Frugal Living

Blog Archive

Friday, February 15, 2008

25 new messages in 10 topics - digest

25 new messages in 12 topics - digest