Frugal Living: Oct 12, 2007

Friday, October 12, 2007

25 new messages in 11 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

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TOPIC: Bush To Let Illegal Aliens Get $40 Digital TV Coupons
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f941e4a655a77d3f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 12:34 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:5n7rf3Fgpv8oU1@mid.individual.net...
>> Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote
>>>>> Thanatos <atropos@mac.com> wrote
>>>>>> Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote
>>>>>>> <trader4@optonline.net> wrote
>>>>>>>> Jerry Okamura <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>> I had a boss who told me once, you know every Tom, Dick and
>>>>>>>>> Harry can tell me about what they see as a problem. It does
>>>>>>>>> very little good to hear about a problem if they do not have
>>>>>>>>> a solution to the perceived problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your boss was obviously an idiot. Suppose an employee came to
>>>>>>>> the boss and said "Every 10th widget that comes off the
>>>>>>>> assembly line has cracks in it and is going in the scrap
>>>>>>>> pile." According to the boss, that does very little good
>>>>>>>> because the employee doesn't have a solution to the problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, because the boss may not have a solution to the problem
>>>>>>> either, so telling him about the problem does not solve the
>>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But according to your logic (or your brilliant boss's logic), the
>>>>>> worker who discovered the problem shouldn't even mention it
>>>>>> unless he has a solution ready to go.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is not what my boss or I said. Problems are just that
>>>>> problems. Problems with a solution that works, become non
>>>>> problems. Problems with no solution, remain problems.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then enforce penalties against employers that hire illegal
>>>>>>>> aliens. Increase the penalties where appropriate. Once there
>>>>>>>> are no jobs for illegals, they'll stop coming.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That also is not a bad idea, but it ain't going to solve the
>>>>>>> problem. First because you cannot possibly stop businesses from
>>>>>>> hiring these people.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can't stop people from murdering each other, either. But we
>>>>>> still have laws against it and we enforce those laws when people
>>>>>> break them.
>>>>>
>>>>> No we do not enforce the laws when people murder someone. We
>>>>> enforce the law when we catch them, and we prove that the did
>>>>> indeed commit the crime. Besides, you said that it will stop them
>>>>> from coming. It
>>>>> will not stop them from coming. It "may" deter some from coming,
>>>>> but it will not stop them from coming.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And just to head off the lackbrain that will inevitably chime in
>>>>>> that he can't believe I'm comparing/equating illegal immigration
>>>>>> to murder, I'm not. Read very slowly and carefully and you'll
>>>>>> discover that I'm not actually making a comparison or an
>>>>>> equivalency at all.
>>>>>>>> Allow and encourage police at all levels to report illegal
>>>>>>>> aliens that they encounter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not a bad idea, but it won't happen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So basically trader was right: there are solutions, there's just
>>>>>> no political will to implement them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, actually there is one sure fire solution, that is to figure
>>>>> out a way, and have the politcial will to act. That is to change
>>>>> the dymanic at work. People come to this country illegally
>>>>> because they believe that they have a shot at living a better
>>>>> life here than the country where they come from. The "real"
>>>>> solution to the problem is to back solutions that will improve their chances of living the
>>>>> life they want to live in the country where they come
>>>>> from....then you would not have them wanting to leave in the
>>>>> first place.
>>
>>>> Trouble is that there are no 'solutions' that will actually do that.
>>
>>> There is "always" a solution.
>>
>> Nope.

> Then if there is no solution, learn to live with the problem?

Or just deal with the parts of the problem that are feasible to deal with.

>>> There "may not be the will", but there is a solution.
>>
>> Nope.
>>
>>> For instance, the government in Mexcio is one big part of the
>>> problem.
>>
>> Nope, no govt of mexico can actually do anything about the real
>> problem, they pump out FAR more kids than the economy can
>> possibly sustain with decent living standards, so there are
>> inevitably hordes who notice that the living standards in the US are
>> much better than in mexico and so they move to US if they can.
>>
>>> They cannot seem to adopt policies that will actually dramatically
>>> improve the lives of their citizens.
>>
>> There are no such policys. Even a very draconian approach like
>> the chinese adopted of forcing most to only have one brat STILL
>> didnt fix the problem that the living standards in the US are MUCH
>> better than in china, and so hordes would prefer to leave china.

>>> One solution (though I am not saying we should do it) is to forcibly change the government in Mexico.

>> Wont do a damned thing about the fundamental problem.

> what is the "fundamental problem"?

I told you, they pump out FAR more kids than their economy
can ever support and thats what produces so many that find
that moving to the US will improve their personal living standards.

>> And it clearly didnt work with Iraq anyway.

> No one can say it will not work in Iraq.

Corse anyone with a clue can say that.

> All we can say is that it is not working yet.

And it wont, you watch. Replacing the govt produced the inevitable result,
a full civil war, and those dont just go away by wishing that would happen.
Some have lasted for hundreds of years effectively, like with Ireland.

There's only ONE real democracy in the middle east and thats Isreal.

The stupid Palestinians cant even manage anything like a viable
democracy, and most middle east states are full scale police states.

Its clear that the shrub's dad has enough of a clue to avoid invading
Iraq after the gulf war. His chimp son was too stupid for that.

>>>> They clearly arent even capable of doing what china has
>>>> done, and even with china, there are still hordes of chinese
>>>> that would move to the US for precisely the reason you list
>>>> above, if the US would allow that, right now.

> It is a matter of logistics.

Nope, not now that there are 40M illegals in the country already.

> Mexico shares a common border with the United States. All anyone in Mexico has to do to flee their country, is to
> walk into the United States. Someone in China has to cross an awful big body of water in order to enter the United
> States.

We've invented the technology that makes that trivial, they're called planes.

>>> I am not that much of an expert on what is happening in China, but from what I have read they do seem to be doing a
>>> better job of at least making life better for some Chinese, but apparently not most Chinese.

>> Correct, but that clearly doesnt fix the problem
>> with plenty of chinese preferring the US to china.

>>> But China is also basically a police state, where they do not allow
>>> their citizens to move around the country freely, which I would
>>> imagine makes it difficult for any Chinese citizen to leave.

>> Irrelevant to what they would prefer to do, and plenty still managed
>> to leave via HongKong even when it is one hell of a police state.

> this is getting silly.

Nope.

> What percentage of chinese successfully flee their country. What percentage of Mexcians successfully flee their
> country?

Irrelevant to whether there is anything the US can do to fix the fundamental
problem thats producing so may outside the US attempting to enter the US.

>>> They also have a geographical problem. The two places I would
>>> think that someone in China would even think of going to would be
>>> Sourth Korea and Japan. Easier to get to South Korea, but not real
>>> easy. Very hard to get to Japan.

>> And very easy to go to Canada, Australia, New
>> Zealand, and hordes of them have done just that.

> Huh?

Your original misses the point utterly.

>>>>> The other is to throw in jail anyone who breaks our law and
>>>>> enters this coutnry illegally (you can deport them after they
>>>>> serve their sentence).

>>>> Makes absolutely no sense to be giving them a holiday in jail where
>>>> their standard of living would be higher than where they came from.

>>> I was not thinking of giving them a holiday.

>> Thats what would happen anyway. US jails have a MUCH higher
>> standard of living than where most of them are coming from.

> a matter of choice. You either want to solve the problem, or you do not want to solve the problem.

There is no 'solution' to that particular problem.

>>> I was thinking more along the lines of that sherrif in Arizona, who houses his prisoners in tent cities.

>> Even that is MUCH higher living standards than the slums of south america.

> yes, but the number of people who commit another crime in that
> jurisdiction is a whole lot smaller than the rest of the country.

Irrelevant to whether that does anything about the fundamental problem
of hordes who realise that living standards are much better in the US.

>>> My attitude is don't make prisons a nice place to be in (that includes US citizens who break the law).

>> They're always going to be nicer places than the slums of south america.

> A matter of choice

Yep, so your jails wont fix a damned thing, they will just ensure
that you have to spend much more on the illegals you catch than
you currently spend on them at large in the US and wont do a
damned thing about the hordes that choose to try it in the US.

>>> If you did that, people would not want to be in prison. If they do
>>> not want to be in prison, they are less inclined to do what they
>>> do, do. Hard labor would also send the same kind of message

>> Even the sort of gung ho prisons that china has where they beat the
>> shit out of the inmates and many of they end up dead doesnt produce
>> the deterrence that you are claiming with the dregs of the third world.

> Well, in order to know that, you have to know the percentage of their
> population who commits another crime after they have been in those prisons,

Nope, thats irrelevant to whether even the most gung ho approach to
prisons is any real deterrence to the flow of illegals entering the country.

> and you have to know the percentage of the Us population who cimmits another crimes after they have been in our
> prisons.

Thats irrelevant to whether even the most gung ho approach to prisons
is any real deterrence to the flow of illegals entering the country.

>> Even public execution like China uses doesnt either.

>> It doesnt even significantly reduce the level of criminal activity.

> Can you back up that claim with some data?

Have a look at the drug crime rate in china.

It doesnt even have much effect on corruption of public officials.

>>>>> That makes just about anyone think twice before entering this country illegally.

>>>> Its a nice theory, but the reality is that plenty chose to leave Vietnam etc when there was a very real risk of
>>>> death in the process and you still see that with those choosing to leave Cuba in pathetically inadequate boats etc
>>>> that sees some of them end up dead every year.

> I never said you can stop people from doing what they want to do. East Germans tried to cross over into West Berlin,
> even though they
> knew that they would be shot, if the East German guards saw them. Which is the basis for my point, that you cannot
> solve the illegal
> immigration problem, if you are not willing to address the reason
> they want to enter this country illegally.

Pity it isnt even possible to address that.

> By the way, think of this as we argue about illegal immigration.

Been doing that for a long time now.

> What is an illegal immigrant? An illegal immigrant is someone that the US government deems to be in this country
> illegally? If the government decides the definition of what is an illegal immigrant, than at the wave of their magic
> wand, they also can and do classify someone who would otherwise be an
> illegal immigrant to be a legal immigrant, can't they? Haven't they done that in the past? The answer is yes, they
> have done that in the past, and they continue to do that in the present.

Irrelevant to whether there is any solution to the fundamental problem,
that hordes realise that the living standards in the US are vastly better
than where they are coming from, and whether even the most gung ho
approach to prisons will have any effect on the numbers risking it.

>>> First of all, you cannot stop people from doing what they want to
>>> do...so let us extablish that as a baseline. So, no matter what you
>>> do, there will always be someone who is willing to take the risk,
>>> regardless of what you do. All you can hope to achieve (if you are
>>> not willing to work on the reason they come) is to provide a
>>> disincentive for them to come and hope like hell that it is enough
>>> of a disincentive....

>> Pity that it clearly doesnt provide enough of a disincentive
>> to matter even when the risk of death is that high.

> Yep

So your tent prisons wont achieve a damned thing except to spend
a hell of a lot more money on those that do get into the country.

>>>> The reality is that jail is no real deterrence for most of them.

>>> Jail is always a deterent.

>> Nope, not when your living standards are bad enough.

> that is a matter of choice....

Yep, and they will continue to choose to risk it because the worst
possibility is STILL better than where they are coming from.

>>> It all depends on what kind of jail you are in and what you do while in prison.

>> Even the most gung ho approach to prisons like china has doesnt work.

> Depends on what your definition of "working" means.

Has a significant effect on the number of illegals risking it.

When those from Cuba are alread risking drowning, your tent prisons
will have no effect on those who are clearly prepared to risk death.

>>> Partial proof of that is to look at the reincarciration rate of
>>> people who have spent time in that Arizona prison....it is very low when compared to any other major city in this
>>> country.

>> Those are individuals who have the choice of first world living
>> standards outside the prison. The third world already has
>> MUCH worse living standards than ANY US prison has.

> Again, a matter of choice.

Yep, and they will continue to choose to risk it because the worst
possibility is STILL better than where they are coming from.

>>>> And a very real risk of death doesnt stop North Koreans heading into China.

>>> Nor the East Germans.

>> There werent all that many of those who were prepared to risk death,
>> essentially because the living standards werent all that much worse.

> risk vs reward

Yep, and they will continue to choose to risk it because the worst
possibility is STILL better than where they are coming from.

>> The worst of the soviet gulags clearly didnt stop plenty flouting the law even when the chance of getting out of
>> those alive was never that good.

>>>>> And if you combine that with lousy living conditions, and something like working in a chain gang, it will
>>>>> reinforce the message that this is the price you pay for entering this coutnry illegally.

>>>> See above.

>>>>> And it would be even better if you increased the time in prison
>>>>> if you are caught again entering this coutnry illegally, and it
>>>>> increases every time you do enter this country illegally. Will
>>>>> that cost this country money to do, yes it will.

>>>> It would be a hell of a lot cheaper to just continue to give them
>>>> the free services they get now and wont have much effect on
>>>> the numbers, essentially because jail in the US is STILL better
>>>> than where they come from for so many of them.

>>> that is part of the problem....

>> That is the ENTIRE problem that nothing can be done about.

>>>>> Do we want to solve the problem on the cheap, would be my answer to those who say that.

>>>> What you propose wouldnt solve the problem, so its just a much
>>>> more expensive way of doing what wont achieve anything.
>>
>>> If you wanted to come to this country illegally, and you knew that
>>> if they catch you in this country illegally, you would be thrown in
>>> prison, be put on a chain gang, live in misearble conditions (yes I
>>> know the Civil Liberties Union is sure to take you to court), would
>>> you enter this country illegally. "If" you knew that everytime they
>>> catch you the time you have to spend in prison is going to get
>>> longer and longer, would you continue to enter this country again?

>> Yep, thats just what happens with North Koreans that get much worse than that and a real risk of death when they do
>> that on the border with China.

>> You havent got the remotest concept of whats driving most of the illegals.

>> There is no solution.

> Depends on what your goal is.

Nope, regardless of the goal, there is no solution to that particular problem.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 3:31 pm
From: "Jerry Okamura"

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5na0htFh05d6U1@mid.individual.net...
> Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Trouble is that there are no 'solutions' that will actually do that.
>>>
>>>> There is "always" a solution.
>>>
>>> Nope.
>
>> Then if there is no solution, learn to live with the problem?
>
> Or just deal with the parts of the problem that are feasible to deal with.

What parts of the problem is that?
>
>>>> There "may not be the will", but there is a solution.
>>>
>>> Nope.
>>>
>>>> For instance, the government in Mexcio is one big part of the
>>>> problem.
>>>
>>> Nope, no govt of mexico can actually do anything about the real
>>> problem, they pump out FAR more kids than the economy can
>>> possibly sustain with decent living standards, so there are
>>> inevitably hordes who notice that the living standards in the US are
>>> much better than in mexico and so they move to US if they can.
>>>
>>>> They cannot seem to adopt policies that will actually dramatically
>>>> improve the lives of their citizens.
>>>
>>> There are no such policys. Even a very draconian approach like
>>> the chinese adopted of forcing most to only have one brat STILL
>>> didnt fix the problem that the living standards in the US are MUCH
>>> better than in china, and so hordes would prefer to leave china.
>
>>>> One solution (though I am not saying we should do it) is to forcibly
>>>> change the government in Mexico.
>
>>> Wont do a damned thing about the fundamental problem.
>
>> what is the "fundamental problem"?
>
> I told you, they pump out FAR more kids than their economy
> can ever support and thats what produces so many that find
> that moving to the US will improve their personal living standards.

you have got to be kidding me. Societies have managed to take care of their
people, regardless of their birth rate. While some countries have not.
>
>>> And it clearly didnt work with Iraq anyway.
>
>> No one can say it will not work in Iraq.
>
> Corse anyone with a clue can say that.

Only someone who knows what will happen in the futrre can do that.
>
>> All we can say is that it is not working yet.
>
> And it wont, you watch. Replacing the govt produced the inevitable result,
> a full civil war, and those dont just go away by wishing that would
> happen.
> Some have lasted for hundreds of years effectively, like with Ireland.

Yep, and there is no civil war in Ireland now, because the english did not
give up.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 3:48 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote

>>>>>> Trouble is that there are no 'solutions' that will actually do that.

>>>>> There is "always" a solution.

>>>> Nope.

>>> Then if there is no solution, learn to live with the problem?

>> Or just deal with the parts of the problem that are feasible to deal with.

> What parts of the problem is that?

One obvious area that can be dealth with is the anchor baby part of the problem.

All that would take is a constitutional amendment and there
isnt any doubt that that would get overwhelming support.

Most modern first world countrys have binned that stupidity for a long time now.

>>>>> There "may not be the will", but there is a solution.

>>>> Nope.

>>>>> For instance, the government in Mexcio is one big part of the problem.

>>>> Nope, no govt of mexico can actually do anything about the real problem, they pump out FAR more kids than the
>>>> economy can possibly sustain with decent living standards, so there are
>>>> inevitably hordes who notice that the living standards in the US
>>>> are much better than in mexico and so they move to US if they can.

>>>>> They cannot seem to adopt policies that will actually dramatically improve the lives of their citizens.

>>>> There are no such policys. Even a very draconian approach like
>>>> the chinese adopted of forcing most to only have one brat STILL
>>>> didnt fix the problem that the living standards in the US are MUCH
>>>> better than in china, and so hordes would prefer to leave china.

>>>>> One solution (though I am not saying we should do it) is to forcibly change the government in Mexico.

>>>> Wont do a damned thing about the fundamental problem.

>>> what is the "fundamental problem"?

>> I told you, they pump out FAR more kids than their economy
>> can ever support and thats what produces so many that find
>> that moving to the US will improve their personal living standards.

> you have got to be kidding me.

Nope.

> Societies have managed to take care of their people, regardless of their birth rate.

Have fun listing a single one thats got a birth
rate like Mexico has thats actually done that.

And like I said, even when china did fix the birth rate problem, that
STILL didnt stop the other fundamental problem, that the living
standards are STILL so far below what they are in the US that
hordes of people STILL want to leave that country and migrate to
another one, and that many of them are prepared to do that illegally.

> While some countries have not.

Like the entire third world, which just happens
to be where the illegals are mostly coming from.

>>>> And it clearly didnt work with Iraq anyway.

>>> No one can say it will not work in Iraq.

>> Corse anyone with a clue can say that.

> Only someone who knows what will happen in the futrre can do that.

Wrong. Its perfectly possible to notice that full civil war doesnt just stop by
itself and that what the US is doing in Iraq isnt going to stop it any time soon.

>>> All we can say is that it is not working yet.

>> And it wont, you watch. Replacing the govt produced the inevitable result, a full civil war, and those dont just go
>> away by wishing that would happen.

>> Some have lasted for hundreds of years effectively, like with Ireland.
>
> Yep, and there is no civil war in Ireland now, because the english did not give up.

Nope, because the Irish eventually came to their senses, after CENTURYS.

There isnt a shred of evidence that the stupid rag heads
in Iraq will be giving up on their civil war any time soon.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 4:54 pm
From: Thanatos

In article <470fc3af$0$32517$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

> "Thanatos" <atropos@mac.com> wrote in message
> news:atropos-995849.19110211102007@news.giganews.com...
> > In article <470e6d4e$0$20581$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
> > "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "Thanatos" <atropos@mac.com> wrote in message
> >> news:atropos-3D6BE2.23071010102007@news.giganews.com...
> >
> >> > Don't forget cutting off all federal funding to any
> >> > city, county or state that undermines federal law by
> >> > implementing "sanctuary" policies.
> >>
> >> and if they won't be intimidated by such tactics, then what?
> >
> > Then we've saved a lot of tax dollars that can be used for something
> > else (or, heaven forbid, refunded to the citizens) and the problem is no
> > worse than it was before.
>
> But you haven't solved the problem then have you?

Haven't made it worse, either, and the federal government gets the
benefit of saving a few billion dollars.

Besides, the states and cities are so chronically addicted to federal
money if the federal government cut it off, you'd see every one of these
sanctuary policies dry up and blow away like tumbleweeds in the blink of
an eye. These mayors and city councilmen would have riots on their hands
if they suddenly had to either drastically cut city services or hike
taxes through the roof to make up for the shortfall in their budgets
where the federal money used to be.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: "Ask Amy": What do you owe to parents while you're in school?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ac88d29cbf7fb41d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 1:54 pm
From: lenona321@yahoo.com

Your opinions?
Lenona.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/columnists/advice/chi-1010askamyoct10,0,295793.column

Dear Amy: I am a 21-year-old man who has spent large portions of the
last few years out of school and working part time because of an
arrangement I've had with my parents to help them by baby-sitting my
two siblings, who are 10 and 4.

Recently I was offered a full-time position at a local company, and I
intend to take it. Now my mother has decided to demand money from me
when I start this job. I've never asked her for a dime for baby-
sitting! But now that I have a full-time job, she is insisting on my
"chipping in around the house."

My mother does not help me pay for school, car or any other bills. I
believe it is completely unfair for her to ask for money after years
of offering me no economic assistance whatsoever and knowing full well
that I have to pay for school on my own. I've been as selfless as
possible when she's needed me, but I have to take a stand for my own
needs. What should I do?

-- Disheartened

Dear Disheartened: Viewed from another perspective, your mother might
feel that providing child care for siblings is an unpaid family duty
(like other family obligations) that comes along with being a member
of a family that happens to have young children. I agree that if your
folks deliberately stifled your progress to get you to be a live-in
manny, it was unfair of them and generous of you.

Now that you are 21 and taking such commendable steps with your life,
use your new maturity to negotiate with your mother. What exactly does
"chipping in around the house" entail? Does it mean contributing
toward the cost of groceries and utilities, or does it mean paying for
baby-sitting services out of your pocket now that you aren't around to
provide these services for free?

You need to work out exactly what will be expected of you. Your mother
wasn't businesslike with you in the past; you need to be businesslike
now.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 2:39 pm
From: Anthony Matonak

lenona321@yahoo.com wrote:
> Your opinions?
... snip ask amy...
Summary... A 21 year old boy has spent his entire life living at
home and has, for the past few years, worked out a barter arrangement
with is parents for room and board. He wants to break this agreement,
work full time and not pay them dime one for room and board. He feels
this is fair because they owe him free room and board no matter how
old he gets.

My opinion? At 21 he should grow up, move out, pay his own bills
and stop being a burden on his parents.

Anthony

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 4:25 pm
From: Clisby

Anthony Matonak wrote:
> lenona321@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> Your opinions?
>
> ... snip ask amy...
> Summary... A 21 year old boy has spent his entire life living at
> home and has, for the past few years, worked out a barter arrangement
> with is parents for room and board. He wants to break this agreement,
> work full time and not pay them dime one for room and board. He feels
> this is fair because they owe him free room and board no matter how
> old he gets.
>
> My opinion? At 21 he should grow up, move out, pay his own bills
> and stop being a burden on his parents.
>
> Anthony

Yep. He paid for his room and board by babysitting his siblings. If
he's no longer going to do that, he needs to pay for it some other way -
or move out, and pay all his own bills. A few months of paying rent
might enlighten him about that "no economic assistance whatsoever" he
got while living at home.

Clisby

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 4:44 pm
From: "Lou"

<lenona321@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1192222493.571088.23090@t8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> Your opinions?
> Lenona.
>
>
>
http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/columnists/advice/chi-1010askamyoct10,0,295793.column
>
> Dear Amy: I am a 21-year-old man who has spent large portions of the
> last few years out of school and working part time because of an
> arrangement I've had with my parents to help them by baby-sitting my
> two siblings, who are 10 and 4.
>
> Recently I was offered a full-time position at a local company, and I
> intend to take it. Now my mother has decided to demand money from me
> when I start this job. I've never asked her for a dime for baby-
> sitting! But now that I have a full-time job, she is insisting on my
> "chipping in around the house."
>
> My mother does not help me pay for school, car or any other bills. I
> believe it is completely unfair for her to ask for money after years
> of offering me no economic assistance whatsoever and knowing full well
> that I have to pay for school on my own. I've been as selfless as
> possible when she's needed me, but I have to take a stand for my own
> needs. What should I do?

If you're really 21, you're an adult. Start paying your own way. Your
mother probably considers that she has been offering you considerable
economic assistance by providing you with a place to sleep, meals, and I'll
bet sevices like cooking and laundry. If you don't want to pay your mother,
get your own place, pay someone else, and start doing for yourself.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: anybody ever had calendars made?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ac13bd71d548a2cf?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 2:09 pm
From: "OhioGuy"

I am considering having a photo contest, then having the winning photos
put onto a local calendar for our neighborhood. The neighborhood in
question has about 1,000 households.

Have any of you ever done anything like this? My prior experience with
printing goes about as far as my laser printer.

Obviously, I'd like to do this with quality, but also for the least amount
possible.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 3:48 pm
From: hchickpea@hotmail.com

On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 17:09:55 -0400, "OhioGuy" <none@none.net> wrote:

> I am considering having a photo contest, then having the winning photos
>put onto a local calendar for our neighborhood. The neighborhood in
>question has about 1,000 households.
>
> Have any of you ever done anything like this? My prior experience with
>printing goes about as far as my laser printer.
>
> Obviously, I'd like to do this with quality, but also for the least amount
>possible.
>

I did one for us using an older version of Serif's Page Plus. It came
out fine for what I wanted, but it wouldn't be so good for 1000
copies. 1000 is a nasty size for a print run, too small for any
economy of scale and too large for some of the one-off processes. My
guess is that anything presentable will cost over $3K and take 3
months minimum. You would start with asking for the best price on
single sheet ads in four color process. This is a common size and a
run of 1000 is also relatively common. After getting these printed,
they would need to be collated and bound with one of the office supply
store binding spines and machines.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 6:43 pm
From: Shawn Hirn

In article <feonr5$rom$1@aioe.org>, "OhioGuy" <none@none.net> wrote:

> I am considering having a photo contest, then having the winning photos
> put onto a local calendar for our neighborhood. The neighborhood in
> question has about 1,000 households.
>
> Have any of you ever done anything like this? My prior experience with
> printing goes about as far as my laser printer.
>
> Obviously, I'd like to do this with quality, but also for the least amount
> possible.

I am a Mac user. If I were to work on such a project, I would simply
open up iPhoto (which comes on every Mac for free), import my photos
into it, then let it generate a calendar for me. Then to save printing
costs, instead of having Apple's service do the printing, I would save
it to PDF and find a third party service to do the printing.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Eating the dead instead of burying all that good meat!!!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/226ceef22bd082b5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 4:45 pm
From: Cannibal Undertaker

Meat is kind of expensive today and burying dead humans
is really a waste of good meat, as long as the body isn't
badly burned (overcooked) or poisoned.

Even 80yo grandmas are quite tasty, I recommend not to
use the internal organs, since at that age they're full of
toxins, but the meat from her arms and legs is just fine.
You just need some marinade before cooking it and it
will taste divine...

So if a family member dies, DON'T bury all that good meat.
You can bury the inedible parts, bones, brain and stuff but
DON'T bury the meat. An average human has at least 30
pounds of it. Eat it, it's tasty and you'll save $$$.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 6:04 pm
From: Anthony Matonak

Cannibal Undertaker wrote:
> Meat is kind of expensive today and burying dead humans
> is really a waste of good meat, as long as the body isn't
> badly burned (overcooked) or poisoned.

Cannibalism isn't more popular because diseases are too easily
transmitted from one person to another. It's also frowned upon
by society. That's probably just a side effect of cannibals
too often getting sick, going mad and doing antisocial things
like killing and eating their neighbors.

Other animals are both faster growing and less likely to carry
human diseases. A chick can be raised to chicken in less than
two months these days. I'm sure that any number of small animals
and even fish are similarly fast growing.

If that isn't enough, I'm sure there are various worms, insects
and perhaps even microbes or fungi that are faster and more
efficient at producing protein for human consumption.

Lastly, it's not an absolute requirement that you eat meat.
There are folks who do without and seem to survive just fine on
plants alone. It's much cheaper and more efficient to eat the
plants directly than to feed it to some animal first.

Anthony

==============================================================================
TOPIC: LCD power consumption
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/b7795a2be395a19a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 5:33 pm
From: Dennis

On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 10:48:52 -0700, "Bob F" <bobnospam@gmail.com>
wrote:

>"Dennis" <dgw80@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:82hng3lmofg4bj1prggqb9lvrlmepetd5j@4ax.com...
>
>> I run XP, but I've read that there may be problems with the HVR-1600
>> on W2000. The HVR-1600 has both ATSC (HD) and NTSC (analog)
>> tuners/capture, so you can get both digital HD over-the-air broadcasts
>> and analog cable/satellite feeds.
>
>Can it do HD and analog at the same time? Record 2 programs simutaneously?

Yes, with BeyondTV. I have the digital input connected to an antenna
(to receive OTA HD broadcasts) and the analog input connected to a
satellite receiver. I can record an HD program and the analog
(Svideo) output of the satellite box simultaneously (or watch one and
record the other).

>Have you seen any cards that can handle Cable HDTV?

The specs for the HVR-1600 say that it can handle clear QAM
(unencrypted cable HDTV), but BeyondTV doesn't support it on that card
at this time. Maybe other software does, I don't know.

Not a PC card, but the HDHomerun networked dual HD tuner supports
clear QAM. A number of TV applications (including BeyondTV) support
it.

Dennis (evil)
--
I'm behind the eight ball, ahead of the curve, riding the wave,
dodging the bullet and pushing the envelope. -George Carlin

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Ron Paul...
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/eb674cb08f954f60?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 5:54 pm
From: "Joe"

LOL... I seriously did a mental flip on this just nowe. I thought you were
referring to Peter Paul...

The guy the Clintons are so unhappy with.

See: http://tinyurl.com/2v4avg

Joe in Northern, NJ - V#8013-R

Currently Riding The "Mother Ship"
http://yunx.com/valk.htm

Ride a motorcycle in or near NJ?
http://tinyurl.com/5apkg

Political Video:
http://tinyurl.com/2v4avg

<aaaaaaaadftdfgdfgdfgdfgdgdf@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:1191576007.176964.324420@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> Has never voted to raise taxes.
> Has never voted for an unbalanced budget.
> Has never voted for a federal restriction on gun ownership.
> Has never voted to raise congressional pay.
> Has never taken a government-paid junket.
> Has never voted to increase the power of the executive branch.
> Does not participate in the lucrative congressional pension program.
> Returns a portion of his annual congressional office budget to the
> U.S. treasury every year.
> Voted against the Patriot Act.
> Voted against the Iraq war.
>
> http://www.ronpaul2008.com/
>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: "If it's yellow, let it mellow. If it's red ....
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1ab4eec5e0e4a531?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 7:20 pm
From: "PhilO"

"Alan Truism" <alan.truism@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:470daadd$0$15324$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> One of my co-workers has decided to stop flushing the urinal in order to
> address the problems presented by a local drought.
>
> I'm all for water conservation, but I don't really care to get his piss on
> me from urinal splash back. I now have to flush both before and after I
> pee.

He's probably banging your old lady, urine is the least of your worries : )
Seriously , you ain't gonna catch a disease , loosen up a little.
Get all the bacteria and viruses you can accumulate while you are healthy
enough to overcome them , get sick 20 years from now and what will save you
if every disease is drug resistant? Go lick a toilet seat , eat a raw
burger , chug a raw egg , get them bugs in yah!

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 8:04 pm
From: "HangEveryRepubliKKKan"

"Otto Bahn" <ei@eio.com> wrote
> I never flush urinals.

And never wash your smegma coated hands no doubt.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 8:51 pm
From: "HangEveryRepubliKKKan"

"PhilO" <phiol@gnt.netspam> wrote
> He's probably banging your old lady, urine is the least of your worries
> : ) Seriously , you ain't gonna catch a disease , loosen up a little.
> Get all the bacteria and viruses you can accumulate while you are healthy
> enough to overcome them , get sick 20 years from now and what will save
> you if every disease is drug resistant? Go lick a toilet seat , eat a raw
> burger , chug a raw egg , get them bugs in yah!

And don't forget to fuck an AIDS infested Whore.

Oh, sorry, you already are....

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Antivirus software
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4955d5be70e1cb0c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 8:20 pm
From: "aesthete8@hotmail.com"

Are there any free sources?

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 8:29 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

aesthete8@hotmail.com wrote:
> Are there any free sources?

Yep, AVG still has a free version.
http://free.grisoft.com/doc/help/us/

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 9:24 pm
From: "ChairMan"

In news:1192245657.788386.97100@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com,
aesthete8@hotmail.com <aesthete8@hotmail.com>spewed forth:
> Are there any free sources?

http://www.free-av.de/

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Earn an Unlimited Income Working from home
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/909731ab291dafc2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 9:03 pm
From: pragyangcs@gmail.com

Start working from home today!
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Many positions available.
Work from home from anywhere in the world.
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Marketing Tools and Training
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/41094a17c6e2fd8f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 9:04 pm
From: pragyangcs@gmail.com

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== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 9:10 pm
From: maithili

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Dollars Stores and Liquid Soap
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f0bed274e0c47e99?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 10 2007 8:36 pm
From: Jeff

Evelyn C. Leeper wrote:

> larry wrote:
>
>> Evelyn C. Leeper wrote:
>>
>>> Just another note on liquid soaps in dollar stores: Not only is it
>>> cheaper than at the grocery (even if you are buying large refill
>>> containers), but you can get "ordinary" soap (i.e., not
>>> anti-bacterial). For people who think that using anti-bacterial soap
>>> all the time is a bad time, this is useful to know.
>>
>>
>> Watch prices carefully at Dollar General. After their buyout, nothing
>> but another cashcow raid by KKR, they changed a lot of suppliers and
>> jacked up prices by about 30%!!!
>
>
> I don't even go to Dollar General or Family Dollar.

There's a lot of absolute crap in some of these stores. I'd never buy
another CF bulb from one. And I have seen dish soap that looked like
soap, but did not act like soap. Not frugal if it doesn't do the job.

Cheap products are often not. It's often hard to tell the value of
something by the packaging.

Jeff

In my opinion, they
> are mis-using the word "dollar" in their names. (Heck, I don't even
> like the dollar stores that have only two or three items priced more
> than a dollar!)
>
> Dollar Tree is probably the best chain, but we have mom-and-pop ones as
> well around here (central NJ) that are pretty good.
>

==============================================================================

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Google Groups: http://groups.google.com?hl=en

25 new messages in 14 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 12:40 am
From: "joe brown"

Anthony Matonak <anthonym40@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
> PaPaPeng wrote:
> ...
>> Most houses have two or more bathrooms complete with a toilet. I
>> think it will be a darn good idea if some industrial designer comes
>> up with a home friendly stand-up urinal for men, one that won't
>> freak out the wimmen. Mark the door with the usual men's room.
>> sign. It will darn sure save a lot of flush water plus solve that
>> spatter problem.
>
> I think most women would prefer a bidet over a urinal. I don't see
> any reason why normal urinal designs can't be used in a home setting.
> The only reason they are not is because most houses are built to the
> minimum requirements on the cheap.

Have fun explaining why even houses that arent built to minimum
requirements on the cheap generally dont have urinals.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 8:27 am
From: "Otto Bahn"

"HangEveryRepubliKKKan" <Justice@ExecuteTheBushTraitor.com> wrote

> > I'm all for water conservation, but I don't really care to get his piss on
> > me from urinal splash back. I now have to flush both before and after I
> > pee.
>
> But you don't mind getting your own piss on you from urnal splashback when
> you pee.
>
> Maybe you should stand back a little further, adjust your aim, or use the
> toilet.

I never flush urinals. If the next guy doesn't like it,
he can do it. I'm not a hygiene freak, but I ain't
touching anything I don't have to in a pubic restroom.
And yes, if you are standing, you are splashing, but I
figure sitting is even worse, except at my house. The
designers of toilets and urinals do their best, but
there's no escaping physics.

It makes as much sense to wash *before* you pee, among
other things most people don't want to think about.

Then toss in aerosolization. I don't worry about it
though. Lack of exposure to germs, with some notable
exceptions, is worse. But I do leave the fart fan on
for 10 minutes just because it's a simple way to clear
the air after a big dump.

--oTTo--

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 11:39 am
From: PaPaPeng

On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 00:05:19 -0700, Anthony Matonak
<anthonym40@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:

>PaPaPeng wrote:
>...
>> Most houses have two or more bathrooms complete with a toilet. I
>> think it will be a darn good idea if some industrial designer comes up
>> with a home friendly stand-up urinal for men, one that won't freak
>> out the wimmen. Mark the door with the usual men's room. sign. It
>> will darn sure save a lot of flush water plus solve that spatter
>> problem.
>
>I think most women would prefer a bidet over a urinal. I don't see
>any reason why normal urinal designs can't be used in a home setting.
>The only reason they are not is because most houses are built to the
>minimum requirements on the cheap.
>
>Anthony

One more kick on the tire.

Bathtubs are rarely if ever used for a soak any more. It uses too
much water. I intend to turn mine into a shower stall when I get the
other house improvements done someday. Then I'll use it as wall to
pee on. I'll use the flex hose showerhead to flush when done. It
will need at most the equivalent of a cup of water to flush clean.

Having said the above I remember I did once suggest in this newsgroup
that I was going to add a Tee connector to the toilet tank feed tube.
This is so that I can attach a flex hose and a trigger operated nozzle
(commercial kitchen equipment) to do the pee flush, Never got around
to do this either. Well some fine day.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Buy Cigs !!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/6a6bacaf9dd0baa5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Life Insurance - A Boon
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f72cb5482116f720?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 2:34 am
From: InsurInfo

We are living in a hefty world of pain. Who knows what will happen to
us
next?. Imagine, What will happento our family after we pass out? In
this
case Shouldn't we be more careful. It's better to take a life
insurance.
For that point, you need to know more on life insurance. I have a
website
that talks about Life Insurance and has great tips and a guild to
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== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 10:46 am
From: Cindy Hamilton

On Oct 8, 5:49 am, InsurInfo <insurz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> We are living in a hefty world of pain. Who knows what will happen to
> us
> next?. Imagine, What will happento our family after we pass out?

I'm pretty sure MY family would be looking for the sharpies so they
can
draw on my face.

Cindy Hamilton

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Macho Chef - A Column for the Man Who Cooks and the Women That Love Him
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/255212cb9edeb770?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 4:16 am
From: Macho Chef

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Interesting Information
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3d5e6e8d6b2cad63?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 4:28 am
From: todayssr

Interesting and informative information for people that 50 and over.
See the California November 2007 online edition of Today's Senior
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== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 5:17 am
From: Anthony Matonak

todayssr wrote:
> Interesting and informative information for people that 50 and over.

The speed limit in these parts is 65 so everyone 50 and over.

Anthony

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Cigarette pas cher !
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/52704172daf346ff?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Fried chicken restaurant GREED!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/32bd80a70aa0741e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 5:12 am
From: "John A. Weeks III"

In article <srhi-327501.23321111102007@newsgroups.comcast.net>,
Shawn Hirn <srhi@comcast.net> wrote:

> The OP did go somewhere else. You should have read his entire posting.

Sorry, I fell asleep after the 7 inning. I am only going to read
so far. If you cannot tell a story in a reasonable amount of space,
then I am going to stop reading at some point and ignore the rest.
It is the old is with the value of time.

-john-

--
======================================================================
John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708 john@johnweeks.com
Newave Communications

http://www.johnweeks.com
======================================================================

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 5:24 am
From: "John A. Weeks III"

In article <QlBPi.63$uB4.25@newsfe05.lga>, casca <@gabriels.ser> wrote:
> The problem has arisen that one or two chains have taken over the
> markets. Now they charge whatever the traffic will bear and slowly
> increase what they charge just like Globalist George's buddies Big Oil.
> Competition is disappearing. There is maybe one independent restaurant
> left in our town. I haven't found it though.

Why not name names so we can discuss it. I really do doubt that is
what is happening, at least not here in the US. Chicken is a dirt
cheap item. Anyone who tries to raise the price beyond what it should
sell for is going to find new competitors popping up all over the
place. If nothing else, every civilized town in the US has a
Wal-mart Supercenter, and they sell chicken cooked from 1 piece
to a million pieces, whatever you want, for quite a bit less than
what KFC charges. For example, they have 100 piece boxes for people
who want to serve chicken at a picnic.

-john-

--
======================================================================
John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708 john@johnweeks.com
Newave Communications

http://www.johnweeks.com
======================================================================

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 6:02 am
From: Siskuwihane

On Oct 12, 8:12 am, "John A. Weeks III" <j...@johnweeks.com> wrote:
> In article <srhi-327501.23321111102...@newsgroups.comcast.net>,
> Shawn Hirn <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > The OP did go somewhere else. You should have read his entire posting.
>
> Sorry, I fell asleep after the 7 inning. I am only going to read
> so far. If you cannot tell a story in a reasonable amount of space,
> then I am going to stop reading at some point and ignore the rest.
> It is the old is with the value of time.

Same could be said for your first reply to the OP.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 7:21 am
From: Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply

John A. Weeks III wrote:

> If nothing else, every civilized town in the US has a
> Wal-mart Supercenter,

I am pleased to report that I live in a VERY civilized area, and there
are No Walmart Supercenters around me. (Not that I would go there if
there were, you understand.) There is a Sam's Club and a Walmart within
a 5-mile range of where I live, and in that same 5-mile range, there are
probably somewhere ballpark around 300K people.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Extra/TheEndOfTheWalMartEra.aspx

--
Every job is a self-portrait of the person who does it. Autograph your
work with excellence.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 10:10 am
From: "ChairMan"

In news:470f82fa$0$79919$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net,
Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply <mmeahan@TRASHsonic.net>spewed
forth:
> John A. Weeks III wrote:
>
>
> http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Extra/TheEndOfTheWalMartEra.aspx

PRAISE THE LORD!!
There really is karma<g>

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 5:32 am
From: SFTV_troy

greg3347 wrote:
> >
> > Illegal Aliens Can Get $40 Digital TV Coupons
> >
> > "We don't have any restrictions on the program with regard to any
> > classification, whether it's immigration status or economic status ..." said
> > NTIA chief John Kneuer, according to Multichannel News.

(1) It's only $40.

(2) It would be too expensive to try to block illegals. The amount of
manpower required to verify, "Is Greg a citizen or an illegal?" would
be WAY more expensive than the amount of money lost. You'd probably
spend 1 million just to save $500,000, which makes no sense. Like
Benjamin Franklin said, "Penny wise and dollar foolish."

(3) I'd rather crackdown on the illegal in more-expensive areas, like
excluding them from SS, Medicare, Medicaid. And also blocking them
from acquiring a job (and arresting those with fake IDs).

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 11:57 am
From: "Jerry Okamura"

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5n7rf3Fgpv8oU1@mid.individual.net...
> Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote
>>>> Thanatos <atropos@mac.com> wrote
>>>>> Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote
>>>>>> <trader4@optonline.net> wrote
>>>>>>> Jerry Okamura <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>>>>>>> I had a boss who told me once, you know every Tom, Dick and
>>>>>>>> Harry can tell me about what they see as a problem. It does
>>>>>>>> very little good to hear about a problem if they do not have
>>>>>>>> a solution to the perceived problem.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your boss was obviously an idiot. Suppose an employee came to the
>>>>>>> boss and said "Every 10th widget that comes off the assembly line
>>>>>>> has cracks in it and is going in the scrap pile." According to
>>>>>>> the boss, that does very little good because the employee
>>>>>>> doesn't have a solution to the problem.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, because the boss may not have a solution to the problem
>>>>>> either, so telling him about the problem does not solve the
>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> But according to your logic (or your brilliant boss's logic), the
>>>>> worker who discovered the problem shouldn't even mention it unless
>>>>> he has a solution ready to go.
>>>>
>>>> That is not what my boss or I said. Problems are just that
>>>> problems. Problems with a solution that works, become non problems.
>>>> Problems with no solution, remain problems.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then enforce penalties against employers that hire illegal
>>>>>>> aliens. Increase the penalties where appropriate. Once there
>>>>>>> are no jobs for illegals, they'll stop coming.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That also is not a bad idea, but it ain't going to solve the
>>>>>> problem. First because you cannot possibly stop businesses from
>>>>>> hiring these people.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can't stop people from murdering each other, either. But we
>>>>> still have laws against it and we enforce those laws when people
>>>>> break them.
>>>>
>>>> No we do not enforce the laws when people murder someone. We
>>>> enforce the law when we catch them, and we prove that the did
>>>> indeed commit the crime. Besides, you said that it will stop them from
>>>> coming. It
>>>> will not stop them from coming. It "may" deter some from coming,
>>>> but it will not stop them from coming.
>>>>>
>>>>> And just to head off the lackbrain that will inevitably chime in
>>>>> that he can't believe I'm comparing/equating illegal immigration to
>>>>> murder, I'm not. Read very slowly and carefully and you'll discover
>>>>> that I'm not actually making a comparison or an equivalency at all.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Allow and encourage police at all levels to report illegal
>>>>>>> aliens that they encounter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not a bad idea, but it won't happen.
>>>>>
>>>>> So basically trader was right: there are solutions, there's just no
>>>>> political will to implement them.
>>>>
>>>> Well, actually there is one sure fire solution, that is to figure
>>>> out a way, and have the politcial will to act. That is to change the
>>>> dymanic at work. People come to this country illegally because they
>>>> believe that they have a shot at living a better life here than the
>>>> country where they come from. The "real" solution to the problem is
>>>> to back solutions that will improve their chances of living the life
>>>> they want to live in the country where they come from....then you
>>>> would not have them wanting to leave in the first place.
>
>>> Trouble is that there are no 'solutions' that will actually do that.
>
>> There is "always" a solution.
>
> Nope.
>

Then if there is no solution, learn to live with the problem?

>> There "may not be the will", but there is a solution.
>
> Nope.
>
>> For instance, the government in Mexcio is one big part of the problem.
>
> Nope, no govt of mexico can actually do anything about the real
> problem, they pump out FAR more kids than the economy can
> possibly sustain with decent living standards, so there are inevitably
> hordes who notice that the living standards in the US are much
> better than in mexico and so they move to US if they can.
>
>> They cannot seem to adopt policies that will actually dramatically
>> improve the lives of their citizens.
>
> There are no such policys. Even a very draconian approach like
> the chinese adopted of forcing most to only have one brat STILL
> didnt fix the problem that the living standards in the US are MUCH
> better than in china, and so hordes would prefer to leave china.
>
>> One solution (though I am not saying we should do it) is to forcibly
>> change the government in Mexico.
>
> Wont do a damned thing about the fundamental problem.

what is the "fundamental problem"?
>
> And it clearly didnt work with Iraq anyway.

No one can say it will not work in Iraq. All we can say is that it is not
working yet.
>
>>> They clearly arent even capable of doing what china has
>>> done, and even with china, there are still hordes of chinese
>>> that would move to the US for precisely the reason you list
>>> above, if the US would allow that, right now.

It is a matter of logistics. Mexico shares a common border with the United
States. All anyone in Mexico has to do to flee their country, is to walk
into the United States. Someone in China has to cross an awful big body of
water in order to enter the United States.
>
>> I am not that much of an expert on what is happening in China, but from
>> what I have read they do seem to be doing a better job of at least making
>> life better for some Chinese, but apparently not most Chinese.
>
> Correct, but that clearly doesnt fix the problem
> with plenty of chinese preferring the US to china.
>
>> But China is also basically a police state, where they do not allow their
>> citizens to move around the country freely, which I would imagine makes
>> it difficult for any Chinese citizen to leave.
>
> Irrelevant to what they would prefer to do, and plenty still managed
> to leave via HongKong even when it is one hell of a police state.

this is getting silly. What percentage of chinese successfully flee their
country. What percentage of Mexcians successfully flee their country?
>
>> They also have a geographical problem. The two places I would think that
>> someone in China would even think of going to would be Sourth Korea and
>> Japan. Easier to get to South Korea, but not real easy. Very hard to get
>> to Japan.
>
> And very easy to go to Canada, Australia, New
> Zealand, and hordes of them have done just that.

Huh?
>
>>>> The other is to throw in jail anyone who breaks our law and enters this
>>>> coutnry illegally (you can deport them after they serve their
>>>> sentence).
>
>>> Makes absolutely no sense to be giving them a holiday in jail where
>>> their standard of living would be higher than where they came from.
>
>> I was not thinking of giving them a holiday.
>
> Thats what would happen anyway. US jails have a MUCH higher
> standard of living than where most of them are coming from.

a matter of choice. You either want to solve the problem, or you do not
want to solve the problem.
>
>> I was thinking more along the lines of that sherrif in Arizona, who
>> houses his prisoners in tent cities.
>
> Even that is MUCH higher living standards than the slums of south america.

yes, but the number of people who commit another crime in that jurisdiction
is a whole lot smaller than the rest of the country.
>
>> My attitude is don't make prisons a nice place to be in (that includes US
>> citizens who break the law).
>
> They're always going to be nicer places than the slums of south america.

A matter of choice
>
>> If you did that, people would not want to be in prison. If they do not
>> want to be in prison, they are less inclined to do what they do, do.
>> Hard labor would also send the same kind of message
>
> Even the sort of gung ho prisons that china has where the beat the
> shit out of the inmates and many of they end up dead doesnt produce
> the deterrence that you are claiming with the dregs of the third world.

Well, in order to know that, you have to know the percentage of their
population who commits another crime after they have been in those prisons,
and you have to know the percentage of the Us population who cimmits another
crimes after they have been in our prisons.
>
> Even public execution like China uses doesnt either.
>
> It doesnt even significantly reduce the level of criminal activity.

Can you back up that claim with some data?
>
>>>> That makes just about anyone think twice before entering this country
>>>> illegally.
>
>>> Its a nice theory, but the reality is that plenty chose to leave Vietnam
>>> etc when there was a very real risk of death in the process and you
>>> still see that with those choosing to leave Cuba in pathetically
>>> inadequate boats etc that sees some of them end up dead every year.

I never said you can stop people from doing what they want to do. East
Germans tried to cross over into West Berlin, even though they knew that
they would be shot, if the East German guards saw them. Which is the basis
for my point, that you cannot solve the illegal immigration problem, if you
are not willing to address the reason they want to enter this country
illegally. By the way, think of this as we argue about illegal immigration.
What is an illegal immigrant? An illegal immigrant is someone that the US
government deems to be in this country illegally? If the government decides
the definition of what is an illegal immigrant, than at the wave of their
magic wand, they also can and do classify someone who would otherwise be an
illegal immigrant to be a legal immigrant, can't they? Haven't they done
that in the past? The answer is yes, they have done that in the past, and
they continue to do that in the present.
>
>> First of all, you cannot stop people from doing what they want to
>> do...so let us extablish that as a baseline. So, no matter what you
>> do, there will always be someone who is willing to take the risk,
>> regardless of what you do. All you can hope to achieve (if you are
>> not willing to work on the reason they come) is to provide a
>> disincentive for them to come and hope like hell that it is enough of
>> a disincentive....
>
> Pity that it clearly doesnt provide enough of a disincentive
> to matter even when the risk of death is that high.

Yep
>
>>> The reality is that jail is no real deterrence for most of them.
>
>> Jail is always a deterent.
>
> Nope, not when your living standards are bad enough.

that is a matter of choice....
>
>> It all depends on what kind of jail you are in and what you do while in
>> prison.
>
> Even the most gung ho approach to prisons like china has doesnt work.

Depends on what your definition of "working" means.
>
>> Partial proof of that is to look at the reincarciration rate of people
>> who have spent time in that Arizona prison....it is very low when
>> compared to any other major city in this country.
>
> Those are individuals who have the choice of first world living
> standards outside the prison. The third world already has
> MUCH worse living standards than ANY US prison has.

Again, a matter of choice.
>
>>> And a very real risk of death doesnt stop North Koreans heading into
>>> China.
>
>> Nor the East Germans.
>
> There werent all that many of those who were prepared to risk death,
> essentially because the living standards werent all that much worse.

risk vs reward
>
> The worst of the soviet gulags clearly didnt stop plenty flouting the law
> even when the chance of getting out of those alive was never that good.
>
>>>> And if you combine that with lousy living conditions, and something
>>>> like working in a chain gang, it will reinforce the message that
>>>> this is the price you pay for entering this coutnry illegally.
>
>>> See above.
>
>>>> And it would be even better if you increased the time in prison if you
>>>> are caught again entering this coutnry illegally, and it
>>>> increases every time you do enter this country illegally. Will
>>>> that cost this country money to do, yes it will.
>
>>> It would be a hell of a lot cheaper to just continue to give them
>>> the free services they get now and wont have much effect on
>>> the numbers, essentially because jail in the US is STILL better
>>> than where they come from for so many of them.
>
>> that is part of the problem....
>
> That is the ENTIRE problem that nothing can be done about.
>
>>>> Do we want to solve the problem on the cheap, would be my answer to
>>>> those who say that.
>
>>> What you propose wouldnt solve the problem, so its just a much
>>> more expensive way of doing what wont achieve anything.
>
>> If you wanted to come to this country illegally, and you knew that if
>> they catch you in this country illegally, you would be thrown in
>> prison, be put on a chain gang, live in misearble conditions (yes I
>> know the Civil Liberties Union is sure to take you to court), would
>> you enter this country illegally. "If" you knew that everytime they
>> catch you the time you have to spend in prison is going to get longer
>> and longer, would you continue to enter this country again?
>
> Yep, thats just what happens with North Koreans that get much worse than
> that and a real risk of death when they do that on the border with China.
>
> You havent got the remotest concept of whats driving most of the illegals.
>
> There is no solution.
>

Depends on what your goal is.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 11:57 am
From: "Jerry Okamura"

"Thanatos" <atropos@mac.com> wrote in message
news:atropos-995849.19110211102007@news.giganews.com...
> In article <470e6d4e$0$20581$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
> "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> "Thanatos" <atropos@mac.com> wrote in message
>> news:atropos-3D6BE2.23071010102007@news.giganews.com...
>
>> > Don't forget cutting off all federal funding to any
>> > city, county or state that undermines federal law by
>> > implementing "sanctuary" policies.
>>
>> and if they won't be intimidated by such tactics, then what?
>
> Then we've saved a lot of tax dollars that can be used for something
> else (or, heaven forbid, refunded to the citizens) and the problem is no
> worse than it was before.

But you haven't solved the problem then have you?

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TOPIC: we accept paypal Wholesale nike air jordans adidas puma bape,from www.
nikekickcoo.com,China
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3baa8c18a382d4cb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 7:23 am
From: polly.ch@hotmail.com

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 10:48 am
From: "Bob F"

"Dennis" <dgw80@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:82hng3lmofg4bj1prggqb9lvrlmepetd5j@4ax.com...

> I run XP, but I've read that there may be problems with the HVR-1600
> on W2000. The HVR-1600 has both ATSC (HD) and NTSC (analog)
> tuners/capture, so you can get both digital HD over-the-air broadcasts
> and analog cable/satellite feeds.

Can it do HD and analog at the same time? Record 2 programs simutaneously?

Have you seen any cards that can handle Cable HDTV?

Bob

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Buy Cigarrettes
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/b19fdbad99120e31?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 11:13 am
From: milis69@gmail.com

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Blog Archive

Friday, October 12, 2007

25 new messages in 11 topics - digest

25 new messages in 14 topics - digest