Frugal Living: Jul 16, 2008

Wednesday, July 16, 2008

25 new messages in 13 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Design variations for solar space heater
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ad2c689d5a582e5f?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 12:00 am
From: Bill Kreamer

The least I can do is intercede on behalf of the poor fan - it really
is easy to justify using one. Do give it a chance, it will improve the
bottom line. Unless the PV panel is free, I'd go with AC.

So how to choose a fan? If other things are equal, when you increase
air flow, the collector runs cooler. That is the direction to go, up
to that certain personal tradeoff point. By that I mean that for air
collectors in general, a cfm is usually reached at which the fan is
too noisy or too expensive.

Anyway, please let us know how your tests come out, and tell us what
fans you try. My range (your mileage may vary), for a 30-35 square
foot collector would be: try fans ranging from 70 cfm (nice and quiet)
to 150 cfm (great thermal efficiency, but noisy.) The middle of that
range is a nice tradeoff. 105 to 120 cfm will usually do the job.

Hey, now that i'm on a roll, I'll advocate for a Very High Surface
Area Absorber. Just my 2 cents here, but I would choose a black
polyester felt, in a fiber density that catches say 80 percent of the
light on the first pass. Some seem to prefer screen, or a similar open
material, but I would go for a nice thick felt, or two layers of
thinner stuff.

Open area is not your friend in an air cooled absorber. An easy way of
evaluating a candidate absorber fabric is to check out the amount of
light passing through a sample. Carefully look through it toward the
sun. You should see a few glints of light; if too much light is
getting through, add a layer.

If you let lots of light through an absorber that's too open, it will
hit the planar back wall of the collector, which, is less efficient at
transferring heat to the air than the absorber. A good strategy is to
intercept as much light as possible as it makes its first pass through
the absorber. What gets through should then be directed back to the
absorber by a reflective back wall, rather than being absorbed by a
black back wall. The absorber is more efficiently cooled by the air
flow, so the collector runs cooler.

Let's say you decide to minimize openness, and to intercept most of
the light using a felt absorber, and that you also use a reflective
back wall. Then, please follow through and use Nick's suggested air
flow pattern - where air moves from the front, through the absorber,
to the rear. This is a "massively parallel" flow pattern. A serpentine
air flow, by contrast, will cause the downstream end of the absorber
to run hot. The ideal is for all areas of the absorber to run at the
same temperature. Any hot spots on the face of an absorber are energy
losers - these areas diaproportionately radiate IR energy out through
the glazing.

And do use a forward-leaning absorber orientation (leans forward at
the top). Feed room temp air into the collector near the bottom, in
front of the absorber. The presence of cooler inlet air next to the
glazing reduces conduction losses, as mentioned by (Nick or Morris)
above. The outlet is from the area behind the absorber. The collector
has a cooler "face," and a hotter "core."

If you send me an email, I'll send back a .pdf of plans for a low cost
collector that uses these principles more or less. If you request it
I'll also attach an ASHRAE efficiency curve that shows a theoretical
72% at intercept. The test was run on Western Michigan University's
test stand. It was the highest efficiency of any air system they had
ever tested. Their testing program no longer exists as I understand.

- Bill Kreamer

-- End Of Hot Air Rant (sorry, couldn't help myself) --

On Jul 15, 8:04 am, Johnnyo <oett...@ptd.net> wrote:
> Thanks Nick and Morris! You are certainly schooling me here.
>
> So i'm finally getting it - the fans are really of no value....better
> to save the PV panel for some other project.
>
> Nick - Thanks for the tip on the local Dynaglass source - i was really
> wanting to use twinwall polycarb but have not been able to find it
> locally, and the shipping/crating charges are steep for a small order
> off the internet. Dynaglass seems a great solution.
>
> It looks like the temps are getting rather high so i'm getting a bit
> worried about code issues if i stay with a plywood back (thinking of
> using existing exterior wall sheathing) and wood sides for the box.
> (Thanks to Gary in his articles for pointing this out). Does anyone
> know if lining the collector interior with foil faced polyiso would
> satisfy the codes? Would think to use aluminum flashing for the
> intake & exhaust.
>
> Thanks again guys!
> John
>
> On Jul 15, 8:27 am, nicksans...@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>
>
>
> > Johnnyo <oett...@ptd.net> wrote:
> > >> > I'm in the planing and design phase for an 8ftx16ft collector for
> > >> > supplemental winter space heating for our home in rural PA. Firm
> > >> > requirements include vertical wall mounting, fan circulation and
> > >> > opposite corner air inlet and outlet (cold in at the bottom and hot
> > >> > out at the top). Glazing will be Sun-Lite HP and back of panel
> > >> > insulation will be rigid polyiso panels.
>
> > The glazing might be 2 $64 4'x16' sheets of Dynaglas corrugated
> > polycarbonate greenhouse roofing from Griffin in Morgantown, PA
> > installed as "solar siding."
>
> > >i chose fan circulation since i already have several suitable DC fans and
> > >a PV panel to drive them.
>
> > A 70 F room on a 30 F day and a C cfm fan in full sun (250 Btu/h-ft^2)
> > and fully-mixed solar-warmed air at temperature T (F) near the glazing
> > would look something like this, viewed in a fixed font:
>
> > 0.9x250x8x16 = 28.8K Btu/h T
> > --- | 1/C
> > |-------|-->|--------------------*---------www--- 70
> > --- |
> > |
> > R1/(8x16) = 1/128 |
> > 30 ------www---------------------
>
> > which is equivalent to this:
>
> > T
> > 1/128 | 1/C
> > -------www----------------www--- 70
> > |
> > | 30+28.8K/128 = 255 F I --->
> > ---
> > -
> > |
> > -
>
> > I = (255-70)/(1/128+1/C) = 23.7KC/(128+C) Btu/h with collection efficiency
> > E = 100I/28.8K = 82C/(128+C)% and average heater air temp T = 70+I/C.
>
> > C = 100 cfm makes I = 10.4K Btu/h and E = 36% and T = 174 F.
> > C = 500 cfm makes I = 18.9K Btu/h and E = 66% and T = 108 F.
>
> > What is your fan cfm?
>
> > With no fans, just holes at the top and bottom to allow thermosyphoning:
>
> > T I --->
> > 1/128 | ---
> > -------www---------------|-->|-- 70
> > | ---
> > | 255 F
> > ---
> > -
> > |
> > -
>
> > According to an empirical chimney formula, I = 16.6Asqrt(H)dT^1.5 Btu/h,
> > with 2 A ft^2 vents and an H' vertical separation. With a 16'x4" slot at
> > the top and bottom and H = 8', I = 250(T-70)^1.5, and T = 255-I/128, so
> > T = 70+((255-T)/1.96)^(2/3). Plugging in T = 100 F on the right makes
> > T = 88.4 on the left. Repeating makes T = 89.3, then 89.2, with
> > I = 21.1K Btu/h and E = 73%.
>
> > >> > Reading posts from the SMEs on this forum as well as many other
> > >> > sources suggests that there are a lot of potential variations in
> > >> > absorber materials (window screen, aluminum sheet, filter fiber,
> > >> > felt), baffle/air channel configuration, absorber placement etc...
>
> > These collectors can be more efficient with a "transpired absorber,"
> > some sort of mesh that allows 70 F air to flow up between the mesh
> > and the glazing and back from south to north through the solar-warmed
> > mesh into the house. This keeps cooler air near the glazing and reduces
> > reradiation loss through the glazing. The house wall behind the mesh
> > should be dark, eg dark green or black.
>
> > >> > So the big question is, does anyone know of documented comparative
> > >> > testing along these lines?
>
> > Gary Reysa has done some of that. I like his air heater design:
>
> >http://www.motherearthnews.com/multimedia/image-gallery.aspx?id=74688...
>
> > I'd use a single layer of black fiberglass window screen for the mesh.
>
> > >> >I've looked but have not found much, so I'm considering building
> > >> >a 4ftx8ft scale test bed where I can easily swap out or change
> > >> >the "innards" in support of an iterative design process.
>
> > Why fuss around with a smaller version, especially if you insist on fans?
>
> > Nick- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 5:46 am
From: Morris Dovey

Bill Kreamer wrote:
> The least I can do is intercede on behalf of the poor fan - it really
> is easy to justify using one. Do give it a chance, it will improve the
> bottom line. Unless the PV panel is free, I'd go with AC.

By all means, give fans a try - I did and it may be an instructive
experience for you, as well.

I have a personal preference for devices with the least possible number
of moving parts. It's possible to design a panel that achieves a very
high efficiency without a fan, associated control system, and power
source - so I did (and so can anyone else).

At http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/SC_Madison.html there're photos of a pair
of the panels being installed. You might find the venting interesting.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Good affordable health insurance
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/725178d66dedbdd8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 1:03 am
From: RABBIT

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http://affordablehealthinsurance.blinkweb.com/

==============================================================================
TOPIC: garden fence at right-angle to house
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/2b96aa4904acd922?hl=en
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== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 1:42 am
From: "john westmore_______"

"AJH" <outwest@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:c20e93c0-6b4d-45ee-adc2-394c1e746fca@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> On 8 Jul, 07:41, "john westmore" <blues...@mail.invalid> wrote:
>> We wish to straighten and 'position correctly' the garden fence that we
>> share with a neighbour in an adjoining terraced house.
>>
>> What is the best way to get the fence at exactly right angles to our
>> houses?
>> The garden is about twenty metres long. Thanks for advice.
>
> You have gone very quiet John.
> What do you think so far then ?!

after my nervous breakdown trying to keep up with these posts, i'm going
into therapy, selling the house, and moving to alaska

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 2:22 am
From: "gavin"

"john westmore_______" <bluestar@mail.invalid> wrote in message
news:g5kca2$jrq$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>
> "AJH" <outwest@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:c20e93c0-6b4d-45ee-adc2-394c1e746fca@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>> On 8 Jul, 07:41, "john westmore" <blues...@mail.invalid> wrote:
>>> We wish to straighten and 'position correctly' the garden fence that we
>>> share with a neighbour in an adjoining terraced house.
>>>
>>> What is the best way to get the fence at exactly right angles to our
>>> houses?
>>> The garden is about twenty metres long. Thanks for advice.
>>
>> You have gone very quiet John.
>> What do you think so far then ?!
>
> after my nervous breakdown trying to keep up with these posts, i'm going
> into therapy, selling the house, and moving to alaska

Watch the film "Into The Wild" first :-)

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 6:13 am
From: "john westmore_______"

"gavin" <theslider@cosmicdancer.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:L5jfk.252886$I42.164789@fe04.news.easynews.com...
>
> "john westmore_______" <bluestar@mail.invalid> wrote in message
> news:g5kca2$jrq$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>>
>> "AJH" <outwest@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:c20e93c0-6b4d-45ee-adc2-394c1e746fca@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>>> On 8 Jul, 07:41, "john westmore" <blues...@mail.invalid> wrote:
>>>> We wish to straighten and 'position correctly' the garden fence that we
>>>> share with a neighbour in an adjoining terraced house.
>>>>
>>>> What is the best way to get the fence at exactly right angles to our
>>>> houses?
>>>> The garden is about twenty metres long. Thanks for advice.
>>>
>>> You have gone very quiet John.
>>> What do you think so far then ?!
>>
>> after my nervous breakdown trying to keep up with these posts, i'm going
>> into therapy, selling the house, and moving to alaska
>
>
> Watch the film "Into The Wild" first :-)

just read an account on which the film is based. Yipes.....please change
alaska to london u.k.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 9:00 am
From: Smitty Two

In article <g5ks6c$im8$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
"john westmore_______" <bluestar@mail.invalid> wrote:

> "gavin" <theslider@cosmicdancer.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:L5jfk.252886$I42.164789@fe04.news.easynews.com...
> >
> > "john westmore_______" <bluestar@mail.invalid> wrote in message
> > news:g5kca2$jrq$1@registered.motzarella.org...
> >>
> >> "AJH" <outwest@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> news:c20e93c0-6b4d-45ee-adc2-394c1e746fca@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> >>> On 8 Jul, 07:41, "john westmore" <blues...@mail.invalid> wrote:
> >>>> We wish to straighten and 'position correctly' the garden fence that we
> >>>> share with a neighbour in an adjoining terraced house.
> >>>>
> >>>> What is the best way to get the fence at exactly right angles to our
> >>>> houses?
> >>>> The garden is about twenty metres long. Thanks for advice.
> >>>
> >>> You have gone very quiet John.
> >>> What do you think so far then ?!
> >>
> >> after my nervous breakdown trying to keep up with these posts, i'm going
> >> into therapy, selling the house, and moving to alaska
> >
> >
> > Watch the film "Into The Wild" first :-)
>
>
> just read an account on which the film is based. Yipes.....please change
> alaska to london u.k.

A god-awful insult of a movie anyway, of an arrogant, misanthropic
teenager trying to find his way out of upper middle class suburban
boredom.

The guy was stupid, blowing around in the wind in a totally brainless
emotional psuedo-quest, making idiotic decisions at every juncture. The
screenplay was abominably constructed, too, with no character
development and scene after scene of random useless filler.

I cared so little for the character in the movie that it's hard to even
feel any compassion for the joker who pulled the pathetic stunt in real
life.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 9:50 am
From: The Real Bev

Smitty Two wrote:
> "john westmore_______" <bluestar@mail.invalid> wrote:
>> "gavin" <theslider@cosmicdancer.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>>> "john westmore_______" <bluestar@mail.invalid> wrote:
>>>> "AJH" <outwest@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> "john westmore" <blues...@mail.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We wish to straighten and 'position correctly' the garden
>>>>>> fence that we share with a neighbour in an adjoining
>>>>>> terraced house.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What is the best way to get the fence at exactly right
>>>>>> angles to our houses? The garden is about twenty metres
>>>>>> long. Thanks for advice.
>>>>>
>>>>> You have gone very quiet John. What do you think so far then
>>>>> ?!
>>>>
>>>> after my nervous breakdown trying to keep up with these posts,
>>>> i'm going into therapy, selling the house, and moving to alaska
>>>
>>> Watch the film "Into The Wild" first :-)
>>
>> just read an account on which the film is based.
>> Yipes.....please change alaska to london u.k.
>
> A god-awful insult of a movie anyway, of an arrogant, misanthropic
> teenager trying to find his way out of upper middle class suburban
> boredom.
>
> The guy was stupid, blowing around in the wind in a totally brainless
> emotional psuedo-quest, making idiotic decisions at every juncture.
> The screenplay was abominably constructed, too, with no character
> development and scene after scene of random useless filler.
>
> I cared so little for the character in the movie that it's hard to
> even feel any compassion for the joker who pulled the pathetic stunt
> in real life.

I felt sorry for his parents, who loved him even if he was a jerk. And
then, of course, there's 'Grizzly Man'.

--
Cheers, Bev
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
If you're ever about to be mugged by a couple
of clowns, don't hesitate - go for the juggler.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Spacing Trips to the Grocery Store?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9e5316c7228e6cd4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 2:56 am
From: Neon John

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:43:11 -0500, me@privacy.net wrote:

>Neon John <no@never.com> wrote:
>
>>>What is your philosophy on having/owning bunch of stuff
>>>like this? You don't mind it taking up space or having
>>>to move it around?
>>
>>You've hit on one of the biggest dilemmas in my life, one that periodically
>>causes me much stress. Stuff. How much to have and what to do with it.
>
>Understand
>
>I'm too much the OTHER direction... not enough stuff!
>
>I guess what I wondering is where is that middle ground
>between me and you and what does it look like? is it
>different for every person? Or is there some kind of
>bare minimum that all of us should have?

I have no idea. It seems that a lot of folks pay me for stuff and for making
things work so apparently they don't have enough. My neighbor is one that has
almost no stuff. When the power goes out, he's the first one over with an
extension cord. He pays for all the fuel so I can't gripe but I've told him
that if we get into another extended outage like the blizzard, that he's out
of luck. I'll be conserving my fuel for the long run. I suggested that he
buy himself a cheap ChiCom generator and a few tanks of fuel for just in case
but he hasn't done that yet.

As far as a bare minimum, I think that a person living outside a city should
be able to survive for two weeks if completely cut off from the outside world.
Something like our blizzard of '93, for instance. A multi-level electrical
system with defense in depth like I have isn't necessary. A cubberd full of
canned and dry food, enough bottled water for the duration, sufficient drugs
if you require 'em and a porta-potty cover the essentials. Add in a Coleman
stove and enough fuel to run it and maybe an unvented propane heater and a
couple of 100 lb tanks to complete the picture.

I spent a year driving an over-the-road semi a couple of years ago (get paid
to see the country.) Life in an OTR semi is quite self-contained. I had two
12 volt freezers, an electric coffee pot, a microwave and enough clothes to
last 6 weeks at a time. Many days I only stopped for fuel. I quickly found
that the two most critical things were personal hygiene and a place to take an
emergency dump!

I sometimes got stranded waiting for a pickup or whatever to where I couldn't
take a shower for 3 days. Normally I grabbed one every 36 hours. I was out
of my mind bat-sh*t crazy over that the first time. After the first time, I
rigged up a little water supply, shower curtain and rod affair that I could
clip between the tractor and trailer, drop trou and clean up. Occasionally I
did it in the rain or in cold weather but either was better than being filthy
(feeling, at least.) I don't know HOW people get used to going without
bathing for extended periods. I won't be doing any safaris!

The other one's a big one too. Absolutely nothing worse than that
breakfast-burrito-fueled grogan demanding to poke his head out when you're 50
miles from the nearest rest area or truck stop. A lot of drivers use those
big alligator tarp clips to string a garbage bag (several, one inside the
other) between the seats and squat over it to take care of business. That was
a bit crude for me. I bought a small chemical toilet.

Being able to take care of business is critical to living through a weather
emergency or whatever. Unless you have a generator, bank a LOT of water or
live near a stream, you're not going to be able to use your toilet. At least
not after about the second day :-( That and being able to keep clean are two
of the major reasons that I have a generator large enough to run both the well
pump and the water heater at once.

I'm thinking about installing a propane water heater in parallel with my
electric one to use during power outages. Propane is too expensive up here to
use every day but it would sure take a load off my generator during an outage.
There I go, more stuff.....

It's well known here that I have a small hardware store in my basement with
bins of PVC, brass and copper fittings, breakers, wire, switches, HVAC parts
and stuff. I maintained that inventory for the restaurant because NOTHING,
and I mean NOTHING ever breaks during business hours.

I look at the guy who drives 100 miles to weekend (or longer) up here in his
cabin or trailer, then has to buy a plumbing fitting from me and I think, "If
not for me, that guy would have to go home and have his whole trip spoiled.
Why didn't he have a few spares?" I couldn't stand to be in that situation.
Even in my motorhome, I keep a pretty good selection of repair parts. A
busted water line or broken switch or something won't ruin my trip.

I've even been in a rest area with the radiator out of the rig, soldering up a
busted tube where I took a rock hit. If not for my little soldering kit,
there would have been a big tow and garage bill and probably a motel bill too.
As it was, a couple of hours of dirty work and I was back on the road again.
Events like that make keeping stuff worthwhile. I think. :-)

I have a buddy and former employee who up and sold everything (not so
dramatically as the guy on ebay) a couple of years ago and went to Alaska to
live in the bush and dredge for gold. We chat every so often (he has a
satellite internet hookup) and he's begging me to come up. I'd go in a
heartbeat if not for all this stuff to take care of. I might anyway....

He admits that even he's accumulating stuff, though slowly, considering how
long it takes to get stuff up there. He started out with a little portable
gold dredge and now he's up to a shore-mounted rig and lots of other stuff.
Started out with a simple one room log cabin and now has a multi-room cabin, a
shop where he maintains his dredging equipment and power tools, another shed
for firewood storage and so on. Stuff grows like a cancer, I'm afraid.

I'm apt to sell everything off one day and hit the road full-time in my MH.
I've wanted to for years. Yet another dilemma. My cabin is irreplaceable. No
more private land available up here. I'd get a small fortune for the place
but I'd never be able to return. This is where I want to end my days so "no
return" isn't an option. Yet, a place that's un-lived-in quickly
deteriorates. Plus I'd still have utility, insurance and property tax bills
to contend with. I've been down the rental route with other property. That's
not for me anymore. What to do?

I guess that I just need to sit back and be happy with what I have. One thing
about it, up here, 25 miles from nowhere, stuff doesn't grow NEARLY as
quickly. Maybe I've found the answer and just don't know it yet.

John

--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Some people are like a Slinky .. not really good for anything
but you still smile
when you shove them down the stairs.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 8:03 am
From: "h"

<lisajoe@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:db7o745fhi2nkot1vlacdnccc4fljnk8qt@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:17:32 -0400, in misc.consumers.frugal-living Neon
> John
> <no@never.com> wrote:
>
>>Oh, I know. Both methods can be optimized. I could buy new high
>>efficiency
>>freezers or just better insulate the ones that I have. Again, I was just
>>piddling with numbers, looking for order-of-magnitude. If canning had
>>turned
>>out to be 20X or 50X or 100X cheaper than freezing then I'd take a second
>>look. Since they're in the same order of magnitude, even when ignoring
>>the
>>cost of jars and since the cost in either case is minimal, I'll stick with
>>the
>>kind of food I like best - fresh from the freezer :-)
>>
>>John
>>
>>--
>>John De Armond
>
>
> Ok one last argument from me then.. :) What do you do with all that
> frozen
> food when the power goes out? Maybe it does not go out very often in your
> area
> but it goes out a lot here and I don't have a generator anymore.

The one time we ever had a power outage lasting more than a few hours was in
the dead of winter. We just took the stuff out of the freezer and put it out
in the snow. We rarely lose power and then it's usually for just a few
minutes.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 8:13 am
From: "h"

"FarmI" <ask@itshall be given> wrote in message
news:487d3860$0$29846$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
> "Ann" <nntpmail@epix.net> wrote in message
>> On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 17:39:58 +1000, FarmI wrote:
>>> "Neon John" <no@never.com> wrote in message

>
> I'd wonder why anyone would bother to make the transition to skim milk at
> all. Skim milk so alters the taste and the texture it's easier to just go
> without 'milk' rather than use skim. Changing to lower fat milk, I can
> understand for an adult as it still has some taste of milk and operates
> like milk in cooking, but skim, no. And children need full cream milk,
> which I guess is less of an issue for all us regualrs here who seem to all
> be old farts.

I was raised on skim milk and I love it. Because I low-carb I don't drink it
much, but I would never, ever think of drinking whole milk or even 1%. It's
gag-worthy and tastes like a glass of cream. Yuck. Also, no one ever "needs"
to drink milk. The only milk you need is breast milk, and once you're
weened, you're all set.

In all of these discussions I realize how our food choices are so different
from most Americans. We don't eat grains, we don't bake, we don't eat any
fruit other than home-grown, and the only dairy products we use are eggs,
cheese, and heavy cream for coffee. I only grocery shop ever 2 weeks or so.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Modern Toilet Restaurant...? [PHOTOS]
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/55b82e80d1009f00?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 3:47 am
From: "poonam.arya99@gmail.com"

Would you like to go for Modern Toilet Dinner...?

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Free Pond's clean sweep Towelettes sample
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f26e664f0d5635c8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 4:43 am
From: "FreebiesPl.us"

Free Pond's clean sweep Towelettes sample
http://www.freebiespl.us/index.php/Free%20Samples/37-Free%20Samples/374-free-ponds-clean-sweep-towelettes-sample

==============================================================================
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/db26d5f7fa6361b7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 5:54 am
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Are we in over our heads?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3b2ea903c0f23deb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 6:55 am
From: "OhioGuy"

I was just reading this article:

http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/105396/Five-Signs-That-You%27re-Living-Beyond-Your-Means

Which talks about living beyond your means, and 5 signs that you are doing
so.

I was wondering, does a house payment count as savings?

We specifically bought a fixer-upper that would eventually be an
investment property, but right now is our first house. (double) We also
took on a 10 year mortgage instead of a 30 year, so that interest would be
low. As such, most of our monthly payment goes to the principle, rather
than interst. (which is a modest 5.2% on our loan - not much more than
inflation)

Anyway, we are paying $370 a month, and have gotten the balance down to
about $11,000 in 5 years, with 5 years remaining. We have paid extra, so
should get it all paid off early. The actual payment due each month is
about $345, so we pay a little extra each month as well as put anything we
have left over towards the loan.

I stay home and take care of our toddlers, plus do some freelance writing
and home repair/renovation when I can. My wife makes the bulk of our
income, bringing in about $40k a year.

So we're paying something like 15% or 20% of what we get after taxes
towards the house. If you include repair costs, the figure is definitely
20%.

However, almost all of this is building up equity in the house, and plus
getting us closer to the point where we can move out and realize rental
income from the property, so I'm not sure if it should be viewed as if we
had spent too much and bought a dream home that we couldn't afford. (we got
this place for about $45,000 - but it needed a new roof and other repairs
right away)

So would our house related spending be considered savings, or even an
investment where this article is concerned?

I've never considered it something that would be a sign that we were
living beyond our means - just the exact opposite, in fact. We were SORELY
tempted to buy something closer to a dream home, which would have forced us
to take on a LOT more debt, and do a 30 year mortgage. I just couldn't
stomach the thought of most of our monthly payment going to interest.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 9:53 am
From: Vic Smith

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:55:19 -0400, "OhioGuy" <none@none.net> wrote:

>
> So would our house related spending be considered savings, or even an
>investment where this article is concerned?
>
You can "consider" it however you want to.
Financially, I've never considered my house anything but a debt and an
expense.
When my remaining mortgage is paid off, the house will be expense
only.
Since I always want a house for my "home" the only time I'd consider
its market value is when I'm thinking about selling it to buy a
different house.
I always considered paying down the mortgage as reducing debt.
As to savings, the only thing I've considered as savings is FDIC
insured savings/CD/IRA-CD accounts - minus my debt.
The one exception to that was 401k money market "savings" which
was not FDIC guaranteed. I did include that when considering my
retirement, and immediately upon retirement rolled it out of the 401k
and into FDIC insured IRA-CD's at 3 times the interest rate.
Yes, I'm conservative that way. Some might call it frugality.
But I never overestimate my actual worth. and always know what I can
afford.
I know a number of people whose "life plans" are rapidly changing
because they considered Wall Street equities "savings."
That's like a guy throwing dice at a casino craps table with a 10
grand stack of chips on the table and thinking he has 10 grand to his
name.
He's got to see what's in his pockets when he leaves the casino.
BTW, I'm not exactly a stick in the mud, as I usually have a commodity
futures trade active - pure gambling. That account sits aside from
all others. If I take money out it goes to savings, and if I put
money in it comes from savings. Otherwise its balance is meaningless.
Like the market value of my house.

--Vic

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Surviving high heating oil prices
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a184bef53e828bc7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 7:10 am
From: zekfrivo@zekfrivolous.com (GregS)

In article <MPG.22e658b1c2ce0d3989ea4@news.individual.net>, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>In article <g5fthh$cj9$1@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu>,
>zekfrivo@zekfrivolous.com says...
>> In article <MPG.22e27c8ac01edffc989e87@news.individual.net>, krw
> <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>> >In article <g5a6po$jf6@acadia.ece.villanova.edu>,
>> >nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu says...
>> >> krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >> >... The reflective barrier will not keep heat in; zero R value.
>> >> >> >It will *reflect* IR radiation and is useful in areas with
>> >> >> >lots of sun, but it adds zero to the R value.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Wrong.
>> >> >
>> >> >Not wrong. Foil does nothing to "resist" the conduction of heat
>> >> >therefor has no "R" value. It will REFLECT radiated heat, but do
>> >> >ZERO for conducted heat.
>> >>
>> >> With an air gap, the foil adds a real R-value.
>> >
>> >Nonsense. The air gap adds R-value. The foil adds nothing to the
>> >heat conduction. Foils is METAL, which is a CONDUCTOR.
>>
>> Regardless of the technicalities of wording, reflective barriers
>> are extremely important when the R value is low.
>
>I guess a penny is important when you're broke.
>
>> I experimented with some 3/16 inch Polyethelene foam with reflective
>> barrier on both sides. In my basement on the cinderblock, which is R 3.5,
>> I laid down a sheet against the block. I added another layer on the 3 inch
>> wood framing members. Measuring the temperature differentials was very
>> remarkable. Better than I could have imagined. It compared very favorable
>> with the 3 inches of fiberglass on other areas. I was thinking, and may still
> do,
>> add preforated foil on top the insulation in the attic.
>
>You don't go into much detail, but your experiment is likely flawed.
>The foil is doing nothing. The foil *might* do some good in the
>attic for reasons I've mentioned.

If it didn't work I would redo it. This area is about1/6 of the basement.
The reason I began trying this stuff is because its the only foam you can use
without protective drywall covering it. The preforated foil also has a polyethelene
center. It does wonders in the garage with only the thin sheet, forming one additional air
space I could not stand in the garage summers before. You could feel the heat
radiating from the ceiling. Now there is NONE.

greg

==============================================================================
TOPIC: mp3 Radio: Full and complete financial meltdown ahead!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a6337fd9d6d74860?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 7:38 am
From: St Georges Day April 23rd

Finance wizards Muhammad Rafeeq and Daryl Bradford Smith

Full and complete financial meltdown ahead.

Part 1 (7,8 MB)
http://www.iamthewitness.com/audio/Muhammad.Rafeeq/TFC.2008.07.15.Tue.1of2.Rafeeq.mp3

Part 2 (5,3 MB)
http://www.iamthewitness.com/audio/Muhammad.Rafeeq/TFC.2008.07.15.Tue.2of2.Rafeeq.mp3

Daryl Bradford Smith's French Connection. The ground shaking radio
show that will snap your neck in odd directions if you listen for a
while

http://www.iamthewitness.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: TIME Magazine: "10 Things You Can Like About $4 Gas"
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/bcabc15341edf272?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 8:09 am
From: lenona321@yahoo.com

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1819594_1819592_1819590,00.html

In short:

1. Globalized Jobs Return Home
2. Sprawl Stalls
3. Four-Day Workweeks
4. Less Pollution
5. More Frugality
6. Fewer Traffic Deaths
7. Cheaper Insurance
8. Less Traffic
9. More Cops on the Beat
10. Less Obesity

You can see it all on one page here:

http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/1890-10-things-you-can-like-about-4-gas.html

(The first link has 11 pages.)

Lenona.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Mortgage Calculator with Compound Interest Control
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/748a30e300112533?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 8:32 am
From: Cheapo Groovo

In article <274b5f1b-edcc-4989-8e81-89b5d6410493
@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, david.k.land@gmail.com says...
> Does anybody know of an online mortgage calculator that allows you to
> adjust how often the interest is compounded (e.g. daily, monthly,
> etc.)?
>
> Thanks,
> Dave
>
Should have one on these sites
http://www.bloomberg.com/invest/calculators/index.html
http://www.choosetosave.org/calculators/

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Windex kills ants but leaves my walls blue (better idea?)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4f5c4a78f889237b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 9:10 am
From: Susan

I have an ant infestation and I spray windex to kill the swarms of tiny
ants but it takes so much to kill ants that the carpets, walls, and grout
turns blue from the dye in the commercial window cleaner.

Do you know if I just buy ammonia and mix it at the correct percentage that
it will still kill ants without staining my carpets blue?

What percentage of ammonia would you use?
Do you know HOW ammonia kills the ants?

Is there a better way to kill an ant infestation?

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 9:21 am
From: David Remley

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:10:05 -0700, Susan wrote:
> Do you know if I just buy ammonia and mix it at the correct percentage that
> it will still kill ants without staining my carpets blue?

Windex isn't ammonia you idiot. It's alcohol!
http://avogadro.chem.iastate.edu/MSDS/windex_glass_cleaner_blue.htm

And alcohol has no effect on the ant species. Use bleach instead.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 9:40 am
From: salty@dog.com

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:21:38 -0700, David Remley
<davidremley@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:10:05 -0700, Susan wrote:
>> Do you know if I just buy ammonia and mix it at the correct percentage that
>> it will still kill ants without staining my carpets blue?
>
>Windex isn't ammonia you idiot. It's alcohol!
>http://avogadro.chem.iastate.edu/MSDS/windex_glass_cleaner_blue.htm
>
>And alcohol has no effect on the ant species. Use bleach instead.

Forget all of these nonsense quack cures. Go to any hardware store and
get some TERRO. It will get rid of ALL the ants, not just the ones you
happen to see.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 9:55 am
From: The Real Bev

Susan wrote:

> I have an ant infestation and I spray windex to kill the swarms of tiny
> ants but it takes so much to kill ants that the carpets, walls, and grout
> turns blue from the dye in the commercial window cleaner.
>
> Do you know if I just buy ammonia and mix it at the correct percentage that
> it will still kill ants without staining my carpets blue?
>
> What percentage of ammonia would you use?
> Do you know HOW ammonia kills the ants?

It doesn't at my house.

> Is there a better way to kill an ant infestation?

Terro bait stations work wonders, but are expensive. Ortho Home Defense
spray is excellent -- water-based, odorless.

--
Cheers,
Bev
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
If it weren't for pain, we wouldn't have any fun at all.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 10:16 am
From: salty@dog.com

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:55:34 -0700, The Real Bev
<bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Susan wrote:
>
>> I have an ant infestation and I spray windex to kill the swarms of tiny
>> ants but it takes so much to kill ants that the carpets, walls, and grout
>> turns blue from the dye in the commercial window cleaner.
>>
>> Do you know if I just buy ammonia and mix it at the correct percentage that
>> it will still kill ants without staining my carpets blue?
>>
>> What percentage of ammonia would you use?
>> Do you know HOW ammonia kills the ants?
>
>It doesn't at my house.
>
>> Is there a better way to kill an ant infestation?
>
>Terro bait stations work wonders, but are expensive. Ortho Home Defense
>spray is excellent -- water-based, odorless.

Expensive?

http://www.terro.com/products.php?product=liquid_ant_killer

That's enough to keep your house ant free for many, many years.

==============================================================================

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14 new messages in 6 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* maenner in damenkleidung kaufen www damenbekleidung bestellen
groessentabelle damenbekleidung bestellen mode damenbekleidung bestellen - 1
messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/550ed24d6d2a3021?hl=en
* Spacing Trips to the Grocery Store? - 9 messages, 7 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9e5316c7228e6cd4?hl=en
* Diesel Genset Parts - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/50f8ac96967c9a6d?hl=en
* You are not frugal if...... - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3c5261ec65743940?hl=en
* How much does AC cost you? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/cdcf4b45a8aaec43?hl=en
* Design variations for solar space heater - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ad2c689d5a582e5f?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: maenner in damenkleidung kaufen www damenbekleidung bestellen
groessentabelle damenbekleidung bestellen mode damenbekleidung bestellen
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/550ed24d6d2a3021?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 6:43 pm
From: clientcenters12@googlemail.com

maenner in damenkleidung kaufen www damenbekleidung bestellen
groessentabelle damenbekleidung bestellen mode damenbekleidung
bestellen

public damenbekleidung bestellen damen und herren bekleidung bestellen
mann in damenkleidung kaufen damenbekleidung bestellen online
bestellen damenbekleidung bestellen grosse groessen schumacher
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== 1 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 6:46 pm
From: Larry Caldwell

In article <s2mp74t6g7ohlqom41ilfk7hr2nvb6ech8@4ax.com>,
lisajoe@privacy.net (lisajoe@privacy.net) says...

> I don't bake while camping..

You are missing a treat. Roll the dough into a bread stick, wind it
around the end of a stick, and roast it like a hot dog over hot coals.
You can mix spicy meats or cheese into the dough. Summer sausage and
sharp cheese mixed into the dough makes a great hot pastry. If you are
just making night camp, you can use baking powder dough, but knead it
enough to work up the gluten, so it doesn't fall apart.

--
For email, replace firstnamelastinitial
with my first name and last initial.

== 2 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 6:38 pm
From: Larry Caldwell

In article <9cap74hj4l9nsgihb96q7c7m4jt1nlgtpn@4ax.com>, me@privacy.net
(me@privacy.net) says...
> Neon John <no@never.com> wrote:
>
> >There's an uninterruptible power supply in the basement connected to about 800
> >amp-hours (24 volts) of batteries. It powers my cabin's "vital bus". Lights
> >(all CF), refrigeration, computer, fan on the wood stove and a few other
> >things. That'll last about 24 hours. After that, out come the generators. As
> >in, more than one for redundancy and diversity of fuel supplies. One is
> >diesel, the other is gasoline with an LP option.
>
> Neon John I'm always amazed at how well EQUIPPED you
> are!! You must have tons of stuff sitting around your
> house and don't mind that, yes?
>
> I'm of the nature that I try and avoid owning things if
> possible and wonder if that is wrong approach. I try
> and live lean and mean.... but it does bite me in the
> ass.... making me "depend" too much on supply lines and
> such.
>
> What is your philosophy on having/owning bunch of stuff
> like this? You don't mind it taking up space or having
> to move it around?

It's all a question of what suits you. At my house, we have wall hung
oil lamps and candle sconces, so the dogs can't knock over a flame. We
have a wood stove and gravity feed water. The highest tech emergency
gear I have is an LED clip-on reading light. I also have a really good
battery powered AM-FM-SW radio, with a Beat Frequency Oscillator so I
can understand SSB. We have a hard wired telephone in the office, and
subscribe to telephone company voice mail. Losing power doesn't make
any difference at all in the comfort of everyday living.

For backup, I have a FSC travel trailer with dual deep cycle batteries
on a float charger. I installed an automotive AM-FM-CD-MP3 player, so I
can go out there, listen to music and read a book.

I have a couple generators, so if the power company doesn't get the
power back in 2 or 3 days, I haul one out and fire it off, mostly for
showers and satellite broadband. The freezer is full, and will easily
hold for a week without power. It's an energy star chest type, with
several hundred pounds of food in there. I run the freezer whenever I
run a generator for something else.

It's a good idea for rural people to have the necessities of life for at
least 2 weeks. Warmth, food, water, medicine, cooking, light,
entertainment, and whatever else you think is a necessity. I favor a
few good books and a deck of cards. Most rural people can get by just
fine for a month or more by raiding the pantry. The thing I tend to get
caught short and have to stock up on is animal feed. I typically let the
feed just about run out before buying more.

--
For email, replace firstnamelastinitial
with my first name and last initial.

== 3 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 6:50 pm
From: Neon John

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:44:01 -0500, me@privacy.net wrote:

>Neon John I'm always amazed at how well EQUIPPED you
>are!! You must have tons of stuff sitting around your
>house and don't mind that, yes?
>
>I'm of the nature that I try and avoid owning things if
>possible and wonder if that is wrong approach. I try
>and live lean and mean.... but it does bite me in the
>ass.... making me "depend" too much on supply lines and
>such.
>
>What is your philosophy on having/owning bunch of stuff
>like this? You don't mind it taking up space or having
>to move it around?

You've hit on one of the biggest dilemmas in my life, one that periodically
causes me much stress. Stuff. How much to have and what to do with it.

I have all this stuff and am prepared for most any contingency but it's a drag
on the way I want to live at this point in my life. Yet, when I periodically
get rid of a big load of stuff, I immediately end up needing what I got rid of
and start collecting again.

I'd like to move farther up in the mountains and live off-grid and as
self-sufficient as my health would permit. Then I start thinking about all
the stuff I'd need to make that happen. Micro hydro plant, batteries,
inverters, generators, etc and I realize that I'd quickly be back about where
I am now.

About 3 or 4 times in my life, I've cleared out practically everything. The
mother of all yard sales, hamfest and flea market trips, even an absolute
auction once. Problem is, I'm an inveterate "doer". Not having stuff to do
things with also drives me nutz.

When I closed my restaurant and retired, I had a 6900 sq ft building full of
stuff. About 1500 sq ft of that space was dedicated to the restaurant but even
it was crowded. I had an auction and got rid of 2/3s of the stuff. What
remains has the basement and all rooms of my cabin packed to the point that I
can't do much with it. I'm about to buy a CONEX container (ocean-going cargo
container) or maybe an old semi trailer to sit on my side lot to use as a
storage shed.

I'm currently collecting materials to build my second electric car. 144 volts
worth of batteries in one corner. Motors and hardware in another. I can't
escape from it!

I don't have much money in this stuff because I'm a master scavenger and do a
lot of trading. Still, the space it occupies is a pain.

Some of this probably comes from my nuclear background where every conceivable
contingency is anticipated and measures taken to prevent problems. I couldn't
stand to know that I'd be vulnerable to a power outage, a storm, a national
strike of some sort, a food shortage or price run-up or anything else like
that. I'm not a survivalist expecting some kind of apocalypse, it's just the
way things work out.

Part of that, too, is that I live so far back in the woods now that my monthly
supply runs require that I store lots of things. It's been close to six weeks
since my last run and I can actually see about half-way down into my freezers!
Time to go shopping....

My biggest vulnerability right now is fire, and I'm taking steps to address
that. Steps include providing a separate power supply from the pole to my
well pump, a water storage tank, a separate generator for the pump, housed in
the pump house; a 1.5" fire hose outside my cabin and eventually, installing
sprinklers in my cabin.

We don't have the raging wildfires that burn whole forests like CA and other
western states do. But we do have ground fires and like everyone else, I'm
subject to starting an accidental fire in my cabin by doing something dumb.

I watched that recent Ebay auction with great envy, the one where the guy in
Australia sold his entire life, leaving with only the clothes on his back and
his pocket contents. He went off with over a half $mil in the bank to start a
new life. I'd LOVE to do that. Of course, I'd quickly identify personal
vulnerabilities in my new life and start collecting stuff all over again.

*sigh* Time to go to the basement and do something....

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources -Albert Einstein

== 4 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 6:59 pm
From: Larry Caldwell

In article <pan.2008.07.15.17.45.28.79780@epix.net>, nntpmail@epix.net
(Ann) says...

> It's what the box says it is - Non-fat dry milk - Total fat 0g.
> Fat-containing powdered milk couldn't be stored long term without a bunch
> of stabilizer to keep the fat from going rancid. (Iirc, dried
> fat-containing milk is used in commercial baking, etc.)

I sometimes use powdered buttermilk for baking.

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For email, replace firstnamelastinitial
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== 5 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 7:08 pm
From: "catalpa"

"Dave" <noway@nohow.not> wrote in message
news:g5ii83$lv5$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>> Where do you live that milk is only $1.99 a gallon?
>>
>> Here in PA state minimum price is $4.10 a gallon.
>>
>>
>
> NY
>
> Don't tell me PA sets state minimum price on MILK???? Most convenience
> stores sell cheap milk gallons, this isn't a NY thing, I've seen it all
> over the U.S. -Dave

Of course, we have the PA Milk Marketing Board to set minimum prices. You
can read all the nonsense at http://www.mmb.state.pa.us/mmb/site/default.asp

I visit Long Island, NY a few times a year and the milk prices there are
always higher than they are in PA. Last month it was $4.49 a gallon. I never
see cheap milk in NY.

In New Jersey there is a dairy in Trenton that sells milk for $1.33 a half
gallon, but regular stores have a much higher price, but still lower than
PA.

== 6 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 7:43 pm
From: me@privacy.net

Neon John <no@never.com> wrote:

>>What is your philosophy on having/owning bunch of stuff
>>like this? You don't mind it taking up space or having
>>to move it around?
>
>You've hit on one of the biggest dilemmas in my life, one that periodically
>causes me much stress. Stuff. How much to have and what to do with it.

Understand

I'm too much the OTHER direction... not enough stuff!

I guess what I wondering is where is that middle ground
between me and you and what does it look like? is it
different for every person? Or is there some kind of
bare minimum that all of us should have?

== 7 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 8:35 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

me@privacy.net wrote
> Neon John <no@never.com> wrote

>>> What is your philosophy on having/owning bunch of stuff
>>> like this? You don't mind it taking up space or having
>>> to move it around?

>> You've hit on one of the biggest dilemmas in my life, one that
>> periodically causes me much stress. Stuff. How much to have and
>> what to do with it.

> Understand

> I'm too much the OTHER direction... not enough stuff!

> I guess what I wondering is where is that middle ground between me and you

Corse there is.

> and what does it look like? is it different for every person?

Yep, most obviously it depends on how handy you are etc.

> Or is there some kind of bare minimum that all of us should have?

Nope, that depends on how monk like you are prepared to exist.

== 8 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 8:18 pm
From: Ann

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 18:59:25 -0700, Larry Caldwell wrote:

> In article <pan.2008.07.15.17.45.28.79780@epix.net>, nntpmail@epix.net
> (Ann) says...
>
>> It's what the box says it is - Non-fat dry milk - Total fat 0g.
>> Fat-containing powdered milk couldn't be stored long term without a
>> bunch of stabilizer to keep the fat from going rancid. (Iirc, dried
>> fat-containing milk is used in commercial baking, etc.)
>
> I sometimes use powdered buttermilk for baking.

Pricey stuff, isn't it. SACO powdered buttermilk has <1 gm of fat per cup
(reconstituted), compared with 2.5 gm for 1% milk and 8gm for whole milk.
They do say it has a long shelf life if it's kept refrigerated after
opening. but that it's not intended for drinking.

== 9 of 9 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 9:16 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Rod Speed, ye vain tedious rogue, be packing, Sir Knob, ye frothed:

> Hello, have u ever experienced that pain u get when u r bein done
> doggy?i have,even though i enjoy sex,loads!I'd like 2 know what this
> pain is,as when i do get it i can't stand it!it happens in my lowest
> of the low abdomen near my bum hole.thanku v. much

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Diesel Genset Parts
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/50f8ac96967c9a6d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 6:55 pm
From: sherrymao530@gmail.com

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Skype:gensetparts

==============================================================================
TOPIC: You are not frugal if......
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3c5261ec65743940?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 7:35 pm
From: Dennis

On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 23:18:46 -0500, Vic Smith
<thismailautodeleted@comcast.net> wrote:

>On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 09:34:24 -0700, Dennis <dgw80@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>I bought my first brand-new car in 1980, a Datsun (now Nissan) 200SX.
>>It had a 2.0L 4-cylinder, 5-speed manual transmission. It was
>>supposed to be a sporty little brother to the 280ZX. I used to
>>average 35mpg commuting with it, and once got 38mpg over a couple
>>tanks on a longer trip down the freeway (in July with the A/C going).
>>OK, it had electronic ignition, fuel injection, etc, but it was almost
>>(now) 30-year-old technology! Why can't the manufacturers at least
>>match that today?
>>
>Hey, you're driving one.

True but, AFAICT, it was pretty much at the top of it's class
mpg-wise. That was a major factor in my choice. Most other
comparable cars (with the possible exception of the Civic) are worse.

>The 2.0L's now are probably a good bit more efficient than the
>Datsun's.
>But the cars they're in are heavier. Window motors, beefier seats,
>airbags, side impact door bracing, etc.
>Thinking about how weight bears on mpg (doh) I looked a bit and found
>this:
>http://www.helsinki.fi/~mjlaine/Palmenia/sas/tiedostot/cars.sas
>
>It may or may not include your 200SX - not sure whether yours was an
>'79, '80 or '81, all of which I assume could be purchased new in 1980.
>You can see evident correlations between weight, HP, acceleration and
>MPG. Just glanced at it and had to resist loading it into a
>spreadsheet for some sorting.
>Looked up the 2006 Corolla 1.8L 5-sp manual - curb weight approx
>2500-2600 lbs EPA MPG 28/37. It's probably better, as yours is.
>So that's as good as the Datsun, and it's a faster, better car.
>They could squeeze more MPG out of the Corolla if they lighten it up a
>bit.

Or made the gearing a little taller. I can go up pretty good grades
at 50mph+ in 5th gear. That seems wrong -- I would prefer a taller
5th gear and downshift when needed if it meant better highway mileage.

>Those 30 year old cars look better because you were 30 years younger
>(-:

The only regret I have about my Datsun is that I was young and foolish
and traded it off too soon. ;-)

Dennis (evil)
--
I'm a hands-on, footloose, knee-jerk head case. -George Carlin

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How much does AC cost you?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/cdcf4b45a8aaec43?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 11:20 pm
From: LoganX

On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 20:19:41 -0700 (PDT), James
<j0069bond@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I get 30 mpg not using AC but only 25 mpg with it on.

Smaller engines tend to use more fuel with A/C on then the larger
ones, that much I have learned.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 12:00 am
From: Bill Kreamer

The least I can do is intercede on behalf of the poor fan - it really
is easy to justify using one. Do give it a chance, it will improve the
bottom line. Unless the PV panel is free, I'd go with AC.

- Bill Kreamer

-- End Of Hot Air Rant (sorry, couldn't help myself) --

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