Frugal Living: Oct 2, 2008

Thursday, October 2, 2008

19 new messages in 10 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Classic Documentary: The Money Masters - How International Bankers
Gained Control of America
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/66e69394e8306a50?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 1 2008 3:50 pm
From: LOVE Europe HATE the EU

Please send this video to your congressmen and senators.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 1 2008 7:06 pm
From: Mason C

On Wed, 1 Oct 2008 15:50:02 -0700 (PDT), LOVE Europe HATE the EU
<zzzxtyryyetytryey@googlemail.com> wrote:

>Please send this video to your congressmen and senators.

You really hate them don't you?

Mason A. Clark http://frontal-lobe.info
book: Greater America in the Age of Rebellion

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 1 2008 7:45 pm
From: "P. Maffia"

Why waste their time with gibberish?

"LOVE Europe HATE the EU" <zzzxtyryyetytryey@googlemail.com> wrote in
message
news:0ba4c22d-2be5-45e6-93be-b44491ed74a1@d70g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> Please send this video to your congressmen and senators.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How many trillion has the FED already injected?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a9b52a8a6b700372?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 1 2008 4:01 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Paul Popinjay <paulpopinjay[nospam]@sbcglobal.net> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Paul Popinjay <paulpopinjay[nospam]@sbcglobal.net> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote

>>>> Go and fuck yourself.

>>> That's not nice at all. Rod, I don't want you to read or reply to any more of my posts.

>> Go and fuck yourself again.

> Rod, I have already asked you not to reply to my posts.

And I have told you more than once to go and fuck yourself.

> I have that right.

No you dont.

> Please don't reply to my posts,

Go and fuck yourself. No please, that's an order.

> or I will report you.

Is this where I'm supposed to curl up and die or sumfin ?

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 1 2008 4:07 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Paul Popinjay <paulpopinjay[nospam]@sbcglobal.net> wrote
> John Weiss <jrweiss@invalid.invalid> wrote
>> Paul Popinjay <paulpopinjay[nospam]@sbcglobal.net> wrote

>>> Rod, I have already asked you not to reply to my posts. I have that right. Please don't reply to my posts, or I
>>> will report you.

>> Unfortunately, there's nobody who can do anything about him. Ignore him.

> John, before I took over the brunt of the Senior Coordinator's responsibilities, I had to get certified.

And now we dont even keep you certified loonys with pathetic delusions in locked wards anymore.

> You are right, I should, and I will, ignore Rod's comments.

Bugger, does that mean I have to curl up and die all over again ?

> But he has no right to continue to read and reply to my posts when it is in a thread I start.

Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed fantasys, child.

> I know I did not start this thread so it does not reply.

Try that again in english, I dont speak gabble.

> I just want him to know that I am no one to push around as I have a great deal of credibility and credentials on
> rec.gambling.poker,

Easy to claim. Hell of a lot harder to actually substantiate that claim.

> plus I was certified.

Your lunacy is your problem, child. Just dont rip up too much of the carpet.

> I can report him to the agency if he doesn't watch his vulgar mouth.

Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed loony fantasys.

> He should not be surprised if suddenly his keyboard starts typing those little stars like ***** if he tries to post to
> rec.gambling.poker.

Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed loony fantasys.

> Thank you for your advice, though, John. I may have been coordinating
> rec.gambling.poker for a few years now but I still have a lot to learn.

You did manage to get that bit right, presumably by accident.

Cant even manage a viable troll, or anything else at all, either.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 1 2008 5:56 pm
From: FL Turbo

On Thu, 2 Oct 2008 09:07:27 +1000, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

>Paul Popinjay <paulpopinjay[nospam]@sbcglobal.net> wrote
>> John Weiss <jrweiss@invalid.invalid> wrote
>>> Paul Popinjay <paulpopinjay[nospam]@sbcglobal.net> wrote
>
>>>> Rod, I have already asked you not to reply to my posts. I have that right. Please don't reply to my posts, or I
>>>> will report you.
>
>>> Unfortunately, there's nobody who can do anything about him. Ignore him.
>
>> John, before I took over the brunt of the Senior Coordinator's responsibilities, I had to get certified.
>
>And now we dont even keep you certified loonys with pathetic delusions in locked wards anymore.
>
>> You are right, I should, and I will, ignore Rod's comments.
>
>Bugger, does that mean I have to curl up and die all over again ?
>
>> But he has no right to continue to read and reply to my posts when it is in a thread I start.
>
>Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed fantasys, child.
>
>> I know I did not start this thread so it does not reply.
>
>Try that again in english, I dont speak gabble.
>
>> I just want him to know that I am no one to push around as I have a great deal of credibility and credentials on
>> rec.gambling.poker,
>
>Easy to claim. Hell of a lot harder to actually substantiate that claim.
>
>> plus I was certified.
>
>Your lunacy is your problem, child. Just dont rip up too much of the carpet.
>
>> I can report him to the agency if he doesn't watch his vulgar mouth.
>
>Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed loony fantasys.
>
>> He should not be surprised if suddenly his keyboard starts typing those little stars like ***** if he tries to post to
>> rec.gambling.poker.
>
>Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed loony fantasys.
>
>> Thank you for your advice, though, John. I may have been coordinating
>> rec.gambling.poker for a few years now but I still have a lot to learn.
>
>You did manage to get that bit right, presumably by accident.
>
>Cant even manage a viable troll, or anything else at all, either.
>

Hey Rod,
Is it true that you are 36 years old and live in your mother's
basement?

You can tell me.
I won't tell anyone else.

Trust me.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: WHAT NOW? Survival of the fittest!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f7c466e37ae04ad0?hl=en
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== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 1 2008 4:14 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Vic Smith <thismailautodeleted@comcast.net> wrote
> Dennis <dgw80@hotmail.com> wrote

>> Interesting to see you so fully in agreement with the Bush Administration.

> If the bailout goes through, the Dems will gain the philosophical
> high ground. "Gov management of business is needed."
> "Wall Street and Free Enterprise can't operate without the gov."
> "Wall Street/Free Market go hand in hand with socialistic principles."
> The lefty Dems are loving every minute of this.
> Franks is ecstatic.
> The real conservatives of any stripe find it a disaster in all respects.

Just like they did in the great depression. And the bailout happened anyway.

They also preferred to jump into bed with Adolf. Then the stupid Japs blew all their feet right off.

> Some strange bedfellows are being made here.
> But the problem is easy credit allowing unsustainable debt.
> The gov solution? Increase the debt.

You can make the same claim about the great depression. It worked then and will work again now.

> Morons.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 1 2008 4:39 pm
From: Dennis

On Wed, 01 Oct 2008 16:11:21 -0500, Vic Smith
<thismailautodeleted@comcast.net> wrote:

>On Wed, 1 Oct 2008 20:12:23 +0000 (UTC), Dennis <dgw80@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>Interesting to see you so fully in agreement with the Bush
>>Administration.
>>
>If the bailout goes through, the Dems will gain the philosophical
>high ground. "Gov management of business is needed."
>"Wall Street and Free Enterprise can't operate without the gov."
>"Wall Street/Free Market go hand in hand with socialistic principles."
>The lefty Dems are loving every minute of this.
>Franks is ecstatic.
>The real conservatives of any stripe find it a disaster in all
>respects.
>Some strange bedfellows are being made here.
>But the problem is easy credit allowing unsustainable debt.
>The gov solution? Increase the debt.
>Morons.

Right. So the Chinese and Saudi bankers will loan the US taxpayers
the money to clean up their own ailing investments.

What's wrong with this picture?

Dennis (evil)
--
What the government gives, it must first take.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 1 2008 5:08 pm
From: clams_casino

Dennis wrote:

>On Wed, 01 Oct 2008 16:11:21 -0500, Vic Smith
><thismailautodeleted@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>>On Wed, 1 Oct 2008 20:12:23 +0000 (UTC), Dennis <dgw80@hotmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Interesting to see you so fully in agreement with the Bush
>>>Administration.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>If the bailout goes through, the Dems will gain the philosophical
>>high ground. "Gov management of business is needed."
>>"Wall Street and Free Enterprise can't operate without the gov."
>>"Wall Street/Free Market go hand in hand with socialistic principles."
>>The lefty Dems are loving every minute of this.
>>Franks is ecstatic.
>>The real conservatives of any stripe find it a disaster in all
>>respects.
>>Some strange bedfellows are being made here.
>>But the problem is easy credit allowing unsustainable debt.
>>The gov solution? Increase the debt.
>>Morons.
>>
>>
>
>Right. So the Chinese and Saudi bankers will loan the US taxpayers
>the money to clean up their own ailing investments.
>
>What's wrong with this picture?
>
>Dennis (evil)
>
>

The alternative is that that buy it next year for cents on the dollar.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The Birk (bailout)Plan
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/7353d0c8c3ba3c4a?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 1 2008 4:16 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

George <george@nospam.invalid> wrote
> clams_casino wrote
>> Dave wrote

>>> No, you can't make money from selling assets of bankrupt financial institutions.

>> Hm - I wonder why Warren Buffet has invested $5B in Goldman Sachs. I wonder why Citigroup has bought up Wacovia
>> bank?

>> Obviously they don't know what you know.

> But Warren Buffet got to cherry pick buying what he wanted under his terms.

So does the govt. Even you should have noticed that they didnt bother with Lehmans.

> He just didn't throw a giant bag of money out the window to buy a giant bag of unknown stinking turds.

Neither is the govt proposing to do anything like that.

> Citigroup got something cheap with the taxpayers as a backstop just in case in goes wrong written right into the deal.

So has the govt.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: What cars to consider - with mileage > 40 mpg?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/57768249de21eea6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 1 2008 4:19 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

OhioGuy <none@none.net> wrote:
>> here, diesel is substantially more expensive than gasoline thirty or
>> forty cents per gallon. Don't look at the just the mileage a
>> particular vehicle gets, consider the fuel cost to drive a mile.
>
> Ok, I've got to respond to that. Yes, Diesel is often 30 or 40
> cents more than gasoline in the USA. This is mostly artificial, due
> to higher taxes that are levied on it

Nope, thats true right thruout the first world now.

> - they assume that mostly huge rigs are using Diesel, and putting most of the wear on the highways.

Have fun explaining how come diesel is higher priced right
thruout the first world now, even in countrys that dont do that.

> Anyway, you are talking about maybe a 10% difference in price.
> Diesel fuel has about 30% more energy in it per gallon, which is most of what gives a Diesel more miles per gallon.
> This greater miles per gallon more than makes up for the difference in fuel price.

> When you add to the fact that Diesels often go 400,000 to 500,000
> miles when given regular maintenance, it would seem obvious that a
> Diesel would be a better long term investment. My Uncle had a VW
> Rabbit Diesel that had nearly 500,000 miles on the odometer. Engine would still start and run, but the floor finally
> rusted out.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 1 2008 5:45 pm
From: Lou

OhioGuy wrote:
> >here, diesel is substantially more expensive than gasoline thirty or
> >forty cents per gallon. Don't look at the just the mileage a
> >particular vehicle gets, consider the fuel cost to drive a mile.
>
> Ok, I've got to respond to that. Yes, Diesel is often 30 or 40 cents
> more than gasoline in the USA. This is mostly artificial, due to higher
> taxes that are levied on it - they assume that mostly huge rigs are
> using Diesel, and putting most of the wear on the highways.

It doesn't matter if the price is "artificial" or not, the differential
is still there at the moment.

>
> Anyway, you are talking about maybe a 10% difference in price. Diesel
> fuel has about 30% more energy in it per gallon, which is most of what
> gives a Diesel more miles per gallon. This greater miles per gallon
> more than makes up for the difference in fuel price.

According to http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/energy_conv.html a
gallon of gas contains 115000 BTU and a gallon of diesel contains 130500
BTU. That's a difference of around 12% - the usual figure I've seen
quoted is 11%. On the face of it, in terms of energy content, diesel
and gas cost pretty much the same, if diesel is 10% more expensive per
gallon than gasoline.

I'm not really talking about a 10% difference in price - that was the
difference at the station where I generally fuel up last week. Today,
at http://www.ohiogasprices.com/index.aspx?fuel=D for the first station
on the list, the prices were diesel $3.79 and gas $3.19 - that's almost
a 19% premium for diesel over regular gas. I have no idea what the
prices are in your area, or how they'd affect your perception of which
fuel cost less to drive per mile.

A diesel engine will give you more miles per gallon than a gas engine,
but you'd expect 11%-12% greater mileage simply based on the energy content.

> When you add to the fact that Diesels often go 400,000 to 500,000
> miles when given regular maintenance, it would seem obvious that a
> Diesel would be a better long term investment. My Uncle had a VW Rabbit
> Diesel that had nearly 500,000 miles on the odometer. Engine would
> still start and run, but the floor finally rusted out.

I don't know if that lifetime is accurate or not, or whether it's a mean
time before failure estimate or just that some percentage of diesel cars
(not trucks) last that long (and what's the percentage?) Anecdotes don't
really prove anything - my mother-in-law drove the same Ford Granada for
23 years. Would you believe me if I said Fords last a couple of decades?

In any case, all I was doing was mentioning that diesel costs more than
gas. And the price of diesel has gone up faster than gas (not too many
years ago, diesel was cheaper than gas). The recommendation is that you
consider not only mileage, but acquisition cost (diesels tend to cost
more), maintenance, longevity, etc. if you want to get the most for your
transportation dollar.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 1 2008 9:53 pm
From: don@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein)

In article <gc0q9t$fdc$1@aioe.org>, OhioGuy wrote in part:
> >here, diesel is substantially more expensive than gasoline thirty or
> >forty cents per gallon. Don't look at the just the mileage a
> >particular vehicle gets, consider the fuel cost to drive a mile.
>
> Ok, I've got to respond to that. Yes, Diesel is often 30 or 40 cents
>more than gasoline in the USA. This is mostly artificial, due to higher
>taxes that are levied on it - they assume that mostly huge rigs are
>using Diesel, and putting most of the wear on the highways.
>
> Anyway, you are talking about maybe a 10% difference in price.
>Diesel fuel has about 30% more energy in it per gallon, which is most of
>what gives a Diesel more miles per gallon. This greater miles per
>gallon more than makes up for the difference in fuel price.

Diesel has about 11% more energy per gallon than gasoline, or about 15%
more energy per gallon than 90%-gasoline-10%-ethanol.
Much of the difference between diesel MPG and gasoline MPG comes from
diesel engines having a higher compression ratio than gasoline engines, to
get higher efficiency of converting heat energy to mechanical energy.

But if you don't have to go too far out of your way to get a diesel car
filled up, it's probably a good idea to get one.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 1 2008 9:57 pm
From: don@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein)

In article <gc15n0$qg8$1@aioe.org>, Lou wrote in part:
>OhioGuy wrote:
>>
>> Ok, I've got to respond to that. Yes, Diesel is often 30 or 40 cents
>> more than gasoline in the USA. This is mostly artificial, due to higher
>> taxes that are levied on it - they assume that mostly huge rigs are
>> using Diesel, and putting most of the wear on the highways.
>
>It doesn't matter if the price is "artificial" or not, the differential
>is still there at the moment.
>
>> Anyway, you are talking about maybe a 10% difference in price. Diesel
>> fuel has about 30% more energy in it per gallon, which is most of what
>> gives a Diesel more miles per gallon. This greater miles per gallon
>> more than makes up for the difference in fuel price.
>
>According to http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/energy_conv.html a
>gallon of gas contains 115000 BTU and a gallon of diesel contains 130500
>BTU. That's a difference of around 12% - the usual figure I've seen
>quoted is 11%. On the face of it, in terms of energy content, diesel
>and gas cost pretty much the same, if diesel is 10% more expensive per
>gallon than gasoline.

Except that diesel engines tend to have higher efficiency of converting
BTUs to mechanical energy due to typically having a higher compression
ratio.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: investment advice
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8995f8769764032c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 1 2008 4:29 pm
From: Dennis

On Wed, 01 Oct 2008 16:25:45 -0500, Vic Smith
<thismailautodeleted@comcast.net> wrote:

>On Wed, 01 Oct 2008 21:16:09 GMT, "catalpa" <catalpa@entertab.org>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>"Lou" <lpogoda@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:gc09i7$6qu$1@aioe.org...
>>> If you had purchased $1,000 of Delta Air Lines stock one year ago, you
>>> would have $49 left. With Fannie Mae, you would have $2.50 left of the
>>> original $1,000. With AIG, you would have less than $15 left. But, if you
>>> had purchased $1,000 worth of beer one year ago, drunk all of the beer,
>>> then turned in the cans for the aluminum recycling REFUND, you would have
>>> $214 cash. Based on the above, the best current investment advice is to
>>> drink heavily and recycle
>>>
>>
>>In exactly what state and city would you get this $214?
>>
>>In NY beer is about $20 for a case of 24 cans. $1000 gets you 50 cases or
>>1200 cans. Returning the 1200 cans for the 5 cent deposit nets you only $60.
>>
>Don't mess up a good story with questions.
>Besides, even at your prices, the beer still does better in the
>example.
>I wonder how it would work with bottled beer.
>Don't know if they have a deposit.

Nickel a bottle deposit here in Oregon. I don't buy much in bottles
any more (kegerators rock!), but I think I'm still ahead going with
the beer. ;-)

Dennis (evil)
--
I'm a hands-on, footloose, knee-jerk head case. -George Carlin

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Headboards with Free Express Delivery
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/0adfb606c56cb1cc?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 1 2008 4:46 pm
From: Mattress- Beds

Stayed in a great hotel last week in wales.
Llandudno
www.caemorhotel.co.uk

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Math on the bailout doesn't add up...
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3213ff522966e10e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 1 2008 6:27 pm
From: Michael Coburn

On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 23:38:26 -0700, Curly Surmudgeon wrote:

> On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 06:04:26 +0000, Michael Coburn wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 22:12:35 -0400, Jim wrote:
>>
>>> Michael Coburn wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jim wrote:
>>>> > Elmo wrote:
>>>> >> Jitney wrote:
>>>> >> > It is hard to find statistics on the mortgage crisis, so I'm
>>>> >> > making an estimate. There are about 100 million households in
>>>> >> > the USA, assuming 10% are in default or foreclosure, which I
>>>> >> > think is a high estimate, subtracting rentals from the 100
>>>> >> > million (if you can refute me from a credible authority, I would
>>>> >> > love to be corrected). Ten million divided into 700 billion
>>>> >> > works out to $700,000 per distressed property, which should on
>>>> >> > the average buy out each property twice. What is happening to
>>>> >> > the rest? I think this is a massive raid on the US treasury,
>>>> >> > with a threat of a Great Depression if we don't pay up, and that
>>>> >> > isn't even counting AIG, Countrywide, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac,
>>>> >> > and Bear Stearns. Wall Street is stealing more than the Huns
>>>> >> > that raided the Roman Empire, with similar results. And this is
>>>> >> > not the end. Congress forked over 25 Billion to the automakers,
>>>> >> > the airlines are next, and who then? Ben and Jerries? We are
>>>> >> > looking at a new Dark Ages.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> You're focusing too narrowly. The problem isn't the mortgages
>>>> >> alone, it's all of the "derivatives" which have been used to
>>>> >> "create value" and "manage risk". Over half of the GDP of the USA
>>>> >> comes from counting each link in the chain as Tom sells something
>>>> >> to Dick who turns around and sells it to Harry who breaks it into
>>>> >> pieces and sells shares of it to Louise and Louise buys a credit
>>>> >> default swap from Thelma. It's a lot like the Dutch tulip mania
>>>> >> except that there is precious little of actual, material value
>>>> >> underneath it. And of course almost all of it has been done with
>>>> >> borrowed money -- sometimes as little as 1% of the "value" being
>>>> >> provided in the form of recognizable assets.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Even those assets are suspect since so much of the concept of
>>>> >> "value" for equity shares has come to be estimated based on
>>>> >> declared earnings which are all too easy to manipulate as the
>>>> >> current quarter comes to a close and the bonus calculations and
>>>> >> stock options start to come out.
>>>> >
>>>> > well put Elmo. sadly though most if not the vast majority have 0%
>>>> > understanding for what you just explained.
>>>> >
>>>> > the real and tangible GDP relates to manufacturing. the country
>>>> > with the in country manufacturing has the wealth. the government
>>>> > of a country with manufacturing has a real and taxable
>>>> > infrastructure allowing that government of said country to collect
>>>> > real and usable revenues.
>>>> >
>>>> > if the workers had simply learned their place in the overall scheme
>>>> > of things and not attempted to exploit those with investment
>>>> > capital then america just might still be the number one country
>>>> > with the most jobs in manufacturing of real and durable goods.
>>>> >
>>>> > but some worker bees got together and attempted to reverse the
>>>> > roles of who exploits who. funny how those with investment capital
>>>> > smiled and waved bye, then simply moved on to a new location were
>>>> > hungry people [worker bees] were eager to be employed /
>>>> > [exploited].
>>>>
>>>> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>>
>>> from your posting header
>>> Organization: NewsGuy - Unlimited Usenet $19.95
>>>
>>> do you really pay $19.95 to gain access to usenet?
>>
>> Nope.
>>
>>
>>>> This is the typical horseshit of "trickle down" rich bitch thievery
>>>> to which the Republicans have _ALWAYS_ subscribed. The lie is that
>>>> the rich people are necessary to a functioning economy in that they
>>>> provide the "capital" (a total distortion of the word) that allows
>>>> businesses to be built and that these businesses (all of which are
>>>> very large) "create jobs". The reality is that work needs to be done
>>>> regardless of whether there is a some rich bitch or not.
>>>>
>>>> But the "financial industry" is a fine example of a lot of "jobs"
>>>> that _ARE_ created by the idle rich and a fine example of work that
>>>> doesn't need doing and which would not need doing if the rich were
>>>> not constantly blowing speculative bubbles to further enrich
>>>> themselves.
>>>
>>> the two above paragraphs you wrote pretty much demonstrate how you do
>>> not truly understand where [real and tangible] investment capital
>>> reside.
>>
>> And you are now demonstrating that you are clueless. Maybe we could
>> start your education by you telling the rest of us what you think
>> "investment capital" might be.
>>
>>>> The total collapse of all the derivatives will hurt only those who
>>>> were a part of the big casino in the sky. And the sooner that house
>>>> of betting slips implodes, the sooner a REAL financial sector can
>>>> take over and the sooner REAL investments can take place.
>>>
>>> without real and tangible investment capital then all there is left is
>>> a "casino in the sky". and now it's time for that imaginary "casino
>>> in the sky" to crash. a return to the sound business practices of
>>> you can buy today what you can pay for today would do wonders as a
>>> cure all for the concept of got to have it now and maybe it'll get
>>> paid for tomorrow way of life americans are addicted to.
>>
>> There is a very real need for credit in a properly functioning economy.
>
> Been with you to this point but here we differ. Strongly. "a properly
> functioning market" is so abstract to make it meaningless. Some people
> believe that no markets functions "properly" on credit.

And some people believe leeches to be beneficial to healing.

>> But in most cases it has next to nothing to do with saved up money or
>> clearing balances or big piles of gold. The concept of a "down
>> payment" is of much benefit. But even that can be too restrictive.
>> Proper regulation is a trade for better liquidity.
>
> And cash on the barrel head is even better.
>
> I do not see a failure of credit markets as a bad thing. More like a
> reality check with a 2x4. If you cannot finance your business out of
> pocket or growth then you've leveraged your affairs for profit at the
> risk of foreclosure.
>
> This is what the Wall Street Tycoons did, they leveraged their companies
> based upon falsely valued, repackaged, loan agreements. When the loans
> went belly-up Wall Street was too exposed, or too leveraged, to fund
> their gambles.
>
> In the real world that's called "tough shit, sherlock." Banks, S&L's,
> Mortgage houses alike gambled then took borrowers equity and homes when
> they couldn't pay. I feel absolutely no pity for the loan sharks that
> now have their own tit in a wringer.
>
> In fact I think it's Karma.

http://GreaterVoice.org/Credit.php

Why do you think I disagree with this tirade against leverage and
derivatives? I don't disagree at all. The prices of homes could not be
supported on the actual money in the economy. The prices were fictitious
and based on money that did not exist and at present wages (velocity of
money) can not exist. The Financial Weenies were playing with "Monopoly
Money" or the sort of fake poker chips that you use in a tournament. Now
they want the American people to cash them out of their closed door poker
tournament with REAL money. All of the bad loans can be made good by
letting the Financial weenies settle their tournament among themselves.
And don't be fooled: This has nothing to do with most commercial banks
and deposit institutions and to whatever extent it does then the
REPUBLICAN repeal of Glass-Steagall is to blame for the most of this. The
Gramm-Leach_Bliley act was not an act that could have been vetoed by
Clinton. It passed the House 362 to 57 and the Senate 90 to 8. Clinton
could no more have vetoed the repeal of Glass-Steagall than he could have
turned back the tides.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm-Leach-Bliley_Act

==============================================================================
TOPIC: how it is
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/71a7c6360d61a009?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 1 2008 6:39 pm
From: "Bob F"

"Derald" <derald@invalid.net> wrote in message
news:t9KdnSRiDadm537VnZ2dnUVZ_g-dnZ2d@earthlink.com...
> http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?secid=1503&status=article&id=307577481313020&secure=1&show=1&rss=1
>
> http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=306978378974502

Thom Hartmann did his radio show this morning reading comments from the NYT
during the developing situation in 1929 and 1930. It was amazing how much the
comments then sounded like the comments now. Thom has an amazing way on
incorporating historical perspective into his air america talk radio show.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Women bape Jean A&F cost T-shirt Hoodies,Men bape Jean A&F cost T-shirt
Hoodies
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/cf4f23e5bcc0d42e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 1 2008 11:12 pm
From: cicitrade01@yahoo.cn

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Thursday, October 2, 2008

19 new messages in 10 topics - digest