Frugal Living: Jul 26, 2007

Thursday, July 26, 2007

25 new messages in 15 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

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TOPIC: FrugalScam
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8576de00c156dacd?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 26 2007 3:25 am
From: clams casino

Bailey wrote yet more spam:

>Frugal Recipes
>
>
>
>
>
How does one know this spam is a scam?

1 - posted via gmail
2 - posted via google groups
3 - repeat posted many times

==============================================================================
TOPIC: whither the ice house?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ece54484f7063e00?hl=en
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== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 26 2007 3:40 am
From: nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

Anthony Matonak <anthonym40@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
>nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>> RW Salnick <salnick@no.spam.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Build the icehouse, and use it as the heat sink for conventional
>>> refrigeration.
>...
>>> Would work great for air conditioning too.
>>
>> Not enough ice.
>
>It's just a question of scale, isn't it?

Yes.

>One could figure out how much ice is needed to keep their house cold
>throughout the year and then build an ice house big enough.

Yes.

>I'm thinking one of those cheap steel buildings the size of a small
>hanger with a foot or so of spray foam insulation on the inside. :)

That could work, with a large enough hangar.

>Any idea of just how much ice would we be talking about?

Phila (not too hot) has 1101 F cooling degree days, so a typical house
with a 400 Btu/h-F conductance and no internal heat gains would require
24hx1101x400 = 10.5 million Btu/year of cooling, which might come from
10.5M/144 = 73,400 pounds or about 1281 ft^3 of perfectly-insulated ice.

From: nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.energy.renewable,
alt.energy.homepower,alt.home.repair
Subject: Re: whither the ice house?
Date: 27 May 2007 04:24:24 -0400
Organization: Villanova University

Al Bundy <MSfortune@mcpmail.com> wrote:

>Procuring the ice is labor intensive...
>There must be a better and cheaper way.

Using NREL's TMY2 ("Typical Meteorological Year") hourly weather data file
for Philadelphia, one of 239 US cities listed at

http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/old_data/nsrdb/tmy2/

10 OPEN "tmycool" FOR INPUT AS #1
30 FOR H=1 TO 8760'read ambient temperature every hour for a year
40 LINE INPUT#1, S$'input a line from the TMY2 file
50 TEMP=VAL(MID$(S$,27,4))'ambient temp (F)
60 ATEMPT=ATEMPT+TEMP'accumulate average yearly temperature
70 IF TEMP < 32 THEN FDHT=FDHT+32-TEMP'accumulate freezing degree-hours
80 IF TEMP > 32 THEN MDHT=MDHT+TEMP-32'accumulate melting degree-hours
90 NEXT H
100 PRINT "average yearly temperature:";ATEMPT/8760
110 PRINT "freezing-degree days:";FDHT/24
120 PRINT "melting-degree days:";MDHT/24
130 CLOSE 1

this fine BASIC program yields:

average yearly temperature: 53.62591 (F),
freezing-degree days: 339.4584, and
melting-degree days: 8232.917,

like heating and cooling degree days (F) for 32 F houses. The number of
"freezing degree days" (FDD) is the total equivalent number of days in
which the outdoor temperature is less than freezing during a typical year,
times the difference in degrees between 32 F and the outdoor temperature,
on each of those days.

The FDD for a particular climate measures how easy it is to make ice. We
can freeze a pound of water with 144 Btu at 32 F, and a water surface has
a thermal conductance of about 1.5 Btu/h-F-ft^2 in still air, and a cubic
foot of water weighs about 64 pounds, ie 5 pounds per inch of depth, so
1 FDD can freeze an ice layer 24hx1.5/(144x5.3) = 0.05" thick, on top of
32 F water. In Philadelphia, we might freeze a layer of ice about 339x0.05
= 16" thick on some sort of specially-designed icemaking pond...

Melting degree-days determine how big an icehouse must be to stay cold
for a year. Bigger icehouses work better. An L' icecube surrounded by R40
insulation contains about 64L^3 pounds of water, ignoring the insulation
thickness, and initially stores about 9200L^3 Btu of coolth with a yearly
heat gain of about 24hx8200x6L^2/R40 Btu in Phila, for a minimum L = 3'.
A 5x5x5 = 125ft^3 icecube inside a 10' strawbale cube might stay partially
frozen all year, if it were first frozen solid and it only had to keep
itself and some vegetables cool, vs say, air-conditioning a nearby building.

Freezing a 5' cube takes about 5^3x64x144 = 1.15 million Btu. An A ft^2
roofpond can make 24x339x1.5A = 1.15 million, so A = 94 ft^2, with some
thermosyphoning salt water stalagtites under a 10'x10' salt water pond
under IR-transparent polyethylene film in freezing weather. Winter winds
and night sky radiation would cool the pond more, as would evaporation,
without the poly film to keep the pond clean.

A low-power pump might flood the pond at night and let it flow back into
a tray above an 8'x8'x4' thick 256 ft^3 water wall inside a 10' cubical
outdoor fridge. The wall might be welded-wire mesh and 2x4 shelves under
plastic film 55 gallon drum liners, as Anna Edey used to store solar heat
in her Cape Cod Solviva greenhouse.

An air-antifreeze heat exchanger and fan might replace the roof pond...
Something like a $35 used 1984 Dodge Omni auto radiator with its 12V fan
or Magicaire's $150 2'x2' SHW 2347 heat exchanger, which can transfer
45K Btu/hour between 125 F water and 68 F air at about 800 Btu/h-F at
1400 cfm (like a window fan) with a low airflow resistance and an air
pressure drop equivalent to a 0.1" column of water. A 100 watt fan might
run 2.3million/(800x(32-25)) = 410 hours at 25 F to freeze the wall,
consuming 41 kWh/year, ie about $4 at 10 cents/kWh, while providing
256 ft^3 of year-round refrigerated space inside the 512 ft^3 box, like
17 home fridges. Is it time for neighborhood icehouses yet? Fill them
with beer to facilitate apres-lawn-mowing-male-bonding? And what will
we do about lawns, after the oil runs out?

Nick

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 26 2007 4:35 am
From: "Jim"

"Morris Dovey" <mrdovey@iedu.com> wrote
> | Any idea of just how much ice would we be talking about?
>
> Ah yes - this is the important question.

It's not how much ice, but how COLD it is. +30*, or -50*? Big
difference....

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 26 2007 5:07 am
From: "Morris Dovey"

Jim wrote:
| "Morris Dovey" <mrdovey@iedu.com> wrote
||| Any idea of just how much ice would we be talking about?
||
|| Ah yes - this is the important question.
|
| It's not how much ice, but how COLD it is. +30*, or -50*? Big
| difference....

I'm looking for information - not a dance partner.

You're evading the question. Pick a temperature that fits a location
in upstate NY, tell us where upstate, what the temperature is, and
take your best shot at the quantity of ice.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 26 2007 5:34 am
From: "no spam"

> | It wasn't an ice box. It was an ice house, in the basement. sort of
> | a walk-in cooler. Food was stored on shelves in the ice room.
>
> Ah! Thank you - I read "ice house" and thought "ice box". My mistake.
>
> Still, that strikes me as a project needing a considerable mass of ice
> and a substantial volume of insulation if it's to last from winter to
> winter (or harvest to harvest).
>
> Too much heavy lifting for me - I'll continue working on a solar
> solution.

There are a few solar cooling solutions. In no particular order;

PV electricity to run standard cooling.

use solar powered heat engine to: 1) run a genny to run standard cooling, 2)
to run a compressor for standard cooling.

My plan, to use solar thermal to run an absorption cooling system with a
closed loop ground water secondary system powered by PV. (the same group of
PV cells will also be used to run my well pump in case of grid failure)

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 26 2007 5:48 am
From: "Morris Dovey"

no spam wrote:

| There are a few solar cooling solutions. In no particular order;
|
| PV electricity to run standard cooling.
|
| use solar powered heat engine to: 1) run a genny to run standard
| cooling, 2) to run a compressor for standard cooling.
|
| My plan, to use solar thermal to run an absorption cooling system
| with a closed loop ground water secondary system powered by PV.
| (the same group of PV cells will also be used to run my well pump
| in case of grid failure)

Add another:

The Stirling engine has an interesting symmetry in that if heat is
applied to its hot side, it will convert (some of) that heat energy to
mechanical energy...

...and if mechanical energy is applied, it will develop a hot side and
a cold side.

I understand this second mode is used to achieve extremely cold
(cryogenic) temperatures.

My approach is to use a fluidyne (a liquid-piston Stirling engine)
driven by solar heat to produce mechanical energy - which is then
applied to a second fluidyne to produce a hot side and a cold side.
The cold side is used to remove heat from fluid circulated by (are you
ready for this?) a third fluidyne (pump) driven by solar heat.

So far so good - follow the link in my sig to see photos, drawings,
and a short video of one of the prototype fluidynes running...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Stirling/

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Cell Phone Question
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/fe794dfae059f032?hl=en
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== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 26 2007 3:47 am
From: Shawn Hirn

In article <vu-dnXkQNO7_LTrbnZ2dnUVZ_smnnZ2d@wcc.net>,
"Nancy" <nancy@nospam.net> wrote:

> Do all new cell phones come with a GPS feature? I'm in the market for a new
> phone & would like this feature. I drive in rural areas quite a bit and
> would like some sort of "locator" feature if there is an emergency.

Are you talking about a locator feature or GPS? The two are not the
same. All new cell phones have a locator feature, although not all 911
systems are set up to use it.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 26 2007 5:07 am
From: George

Nancy wrote:
> Do all new cell phones come with a GPS feature? I'm in the market for a new
> phone & would like this feature. I drive in rural areas quite a bit and
> would like some sort of "locator" feature if there is an emergency.
>
> Nancy
>
>
>
Locater meaning they can find your handset when you call 911?

Phones have either a built in GPS (Verizon/Sprint) and other carriers
use less accurate methods. The problem is even though they have been
charging the E911 tax for years many states choose to use the money for
other stuff (my state is one of them). So the cell companies can deliver
the electronic information but various emergency call centers don't have
equipment to use it.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 26 2007 10:21 am
From: "Nancy"

"Shawn Hirn" <srhi@comcast.net> wrote in message news:srhi-> Are you talking
about a locator feature or GPS? The two are not the
> same. All new cell phones have a locator feature, although not all 911
> systems are set up to use it.

I have now figured this out after looking at various phones. I really
wanted just the locator feature. Thanks for educating me! Glad to know
all the new phones have it.

Nancy

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TOPIC: Can I Avoid Losing My Rollover Minutes When Changing Plans?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/2ccfad333fda7ea2?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 26 2007 3:50 am
From: Shawn Hirn

In article <1185317178.211054.187600@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>,
Courtney <ckinear@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I'd like to drop from my AT&T 900 min plan to the 450 min plan but if
> I do they say they will take my 3500 rollover minutes away from me.
>
> Is there any way for me to avoid losing my rollover minutes?

Perhaps. Try negotiating. For example, if you are looking at a Verizon
plan, see if you can say something to a Verizon salesman like "I would
love to switch to Verizon, I have 3500 rollover minutes on AT&T, what
can you do for me? I won't switch if I lose all those minutes."

You will probably not get to keep your 3500 minutes, but you don't know
if you don't ask.

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TOPIC: Hi Friend,
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/71319e51c86cc68e?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 26 2007 5:11 am
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: How to Get out of a Cellular Service Contract
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a46c52149032c446?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 26 2007 8:42 am
From: Tim Campbell

In the U.S., it can be easier to end a marriage than to leave a
loveless relationship with Verizon or T-Mobile. No, you don't have to
move to SIM card swapping Europe. Try these guerrilla tactics to get
out of your service contract.

Steps
Find an alternative Having ammunition as to what contract you are
going to switch too will give you confidence and strength to go
through with the painful process of getting out of your contract.
Be a squeaky wheel. Say you want out because the service isn't up to
par. (And really, is it?) Then back that up by filing official
complaints online with the Federal Trade Commission and the Better
Business Bureau.
Get a lemon. Get a known problematic phone, complain 3 times, be let
out of a contract due to your local lemon law.
Try a market-based fix. Some companies such as Celltradeusa.com and
Resellular.com match unhappy mobile customers with people who'd like
to sign up - at a discount, of course. You'll pay a $20 fee to sell
your contract on the block.
Look for your provider to bury changes to Terms of Service with your
bill. Quite often providers modify their service plans, much of the
time the modification is a benefit. It doesn't matter, this voids the
previous contract. Read the small print on those inserts included with
your bill, it will spell out that you have 30 days (may vary on where
you live) to cancel your contract with no charge simply because they
changed the contract. With SprintPCS, call customer service and ask
them to use the "maintenance screen" to enable "direct mailing
notification" which will notify you via text message whenever changes
are made to your contract.
Do a radical move. While potentially extreme and ethically dubious,
these solutions could free you of the contract:

Get off the grid. If you move and cannot get the same level of service
as your previous location, tell your service provider. They're not
legally required to cut you loose, but frustrated consumers have
reported success. Cingular's policy is to automatically waive the
Early Termination Fee in these circumstances. This doesn't work with
SprintPCS.
Join the army. If you are a member of the US Armed Services and you
receive orders to somewhere the company doesn't provide service they
are obligated to cancel your contract free of charge. Keep in mind,
you'll have to provide a copy of your official orders. Again, as of
12/06, this doesn't work with SprintPCS.
Overuse Free Roaming. Most phones come with free roaming now. But it's
not actually free. The company pays it for you. So all you do is go to
an area that is considered roaming (and when you have free nights or
weekends) and place a long (5 hours?) phone call to "Moviefone" or
something along those lines. You can also set your phone to only roam
and instead of utilizing its own network it will search for others and
utilize those. This will start adding up for them in the fees they
have to pay to the service provider in that area and they will kick
you out of the contract. Too bad.
Force them to produce the signed contract. Tell them you didn't get a
copy of the contract (which actually is pretty likely) and ask them to
produce a copy and mail it to you. In many cases, copies haven't been
scanned into the database, especially with recent mergers, and if they
can't produce a copy, the most they can legally hold you to is a
year.
Shrink your plan. As a last resort, cut back to the bare minimum the
provider allows and drop any frills, like picture-messaging. Depending
on the number of months you have left, this could be cheaper than
paying the typically prorated termination fee, which can often run up
to $300. However, at some cellular companies changing your plan, even
to reduce it, may extend it for at least another year, so do the math
first to make certain it will actually save you money.
Contact the FCC. If you have a valid complaint(s), contact the Federal
Communications Commission (FCC, USA only). Typically, your case will
be reviewed and the FCC will contact the phone company. In most cases,
the phone company will avoid any confrontations with this government
body, and will choose to be agreeable and expedite the necessary steps
to resolve the complaint. List your opinion for the only valid
resolution to be that of contract cancellation without applying fees.
Dead?? If your cellphone happens to be in someone's name who recently
deceased (spouse, Dad, Mom, the CEO/Owner of your workplace) - call
and get the service cancelled.

Tips
Think carefully before you sign another contract. If you're reading
this article, chances are excellent that you understand the basic
nature of mobile service carriers. There are lots of alternatives that
don't require contracts, and you might do well to consider one.
Consider just paying the early termination fee. Sure, it's a sock in
the wallet - but once you pay, your nightmare is over. Following the
steps above can be an unpleasant pursuit that spans hours, days, even
weeks. What's your time worth?
If you have a contract with "Unlimited Nights and Weekends", then
anything that the carrier does, or doesn't do, to limit the number of
minutes you could use during that period is a potential contract
violation on the carrier's part. This might work if you consistently
receive 'all circuits are busy now' messages or poorer reception than
advertised on their coverage maps. Plus it has the added value of
being the truth.
Choose one or more these options that applies to you. Honesty is
looked at with favor.
No contract is enforceable on a minor.
If you have a high tolerance for hassle, call your carrier's customer
service number get the name of the representative and ask them to add
a note to your account that states the reason you want to cancel, then
tell them you heard that it cost almost $20.00 each time you call
customer service. Your early termination fee is 200 and you are going
to call 20 times so it will cost them double to keep you as a customer
as it will to let you out. Ask for a manager each time. Expect to call
ten times before this works. Call when you are on a long drive or have
free time. Beware however, with T-Mobile, they may call this
harassment, and may say they are going to contact their legal
department and still make you pay the termination fee. Call their
bluff and say you will call your legal department in return.
With SprintPCS, call customer service and ask them to use the
"maintenance screen" to enable "direct mailing notification" which
will notify you via text message whenever changes are made to your
contract, supposedly. This seems to be the most sure-fire way of
getting out with an early termination fee (with an expected amount of
resistance from phone reps), but it is, of course, dependent on the
company changing the contract.
Sometimes paying the early termination fee (maybe $200) is cheaper
then keeping the phone and living with bad service. Especially if you
have many months left in the contract and are paying for lots of
minutes.
If you are with Sprint PCS, you have an automated way to request
credit for a dropped call, no questions asked. Use this feature
constantly. At 50 cents a pop, they are likely to want you gone if
you're persistent enough. To legitimately drop enough calls. go to an
area that is problematic and make as many calls as you can.

Warnings
Not all contracts provide free roaming. Make sure to check before
placing a lengthy roaming call. If it's not free in your contract, it
will cost you a fortune.
Some carriers will charge you a hefty Early Termination Fee if they
kick you off for excessive roaming. For example, Sprint will charge an
Early Termination Fee of $200 if they cancel your service with "good
cause" (i.e., if you don't pay your bill). Cingular will not.

Related wikiHows
How to Find the IMEI Number on a Mobile Phone
How to View Your Phone Bill Online
How to Buy the Right Mobile Phone
How to Dispute Your Cell Phone Bill
How to Answer a Cell Phone During School
How to Improve Cell Phone Reception

External Links
Wired Magazine - Original source of this article. Shared with
permission.

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TOPIC: Nano tech: Safe?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/537a449f817190cb?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 26 2007 8:55 am
From: me@privacy.net

Was reading in Consumer Reports that some nano tech may
not be safe to humans.

Especially in things such as suntan lotions where
apparently the particles are so SMALL that they can
enter the body thru the skin. And.....almost ALL sun
lotions are using nano in them without any regulation
from FDA.

What do you guys advise as far as suntan lotions?
Avoid nano based ones?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Funny JOkes
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4778354c29215fed?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 26 2007 11:41 am
From: fazi

Son on his honeymoon phoned his mom asking what 2 do.
MOM:Put ur biggest thng on her hairiest thng. SON:got
my nose in her armpit. Now what?

MuM: Have you brought the matches home? Son: Yes! Mum: Are they
working??? Son: Yes! I have try up all the fire macthes... It's
working.

for more visit: www.mobsms.page.tl

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 26 2007 12:45 pm
From: "Melissa"

"fazi" <faizgi@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1185475307.582861.260810@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> Son on his honeymoon phoned his mom asking what 2 do.
> MOM:Put ur biggest thng on her hairiest thng. SON:got
> my nose in her armpit. Now what?
>
> MuM: Have you brought the matches home? Son: Yes! Mum: Are they
> working??? Son: Yes! I have try up all the fire macthes... It's
> working.
>
>
> for more visit: www.mobsms.page.tl
>

Ok sonny, step away from daddy's computer.

Melissa

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Access FREE Satellite TV on your PC or Laptop

http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4dd7bdc82b1cc199?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 26 2007 12:23 pm
From: Lisa Jones

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Trac-fone - Cell phone question
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/faba6b29b488765b?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 26 2007 12:42 pm
From: Dennis

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:06:50 +1000, "A Mate" <maybe@Australia.com.au>
wrote:

>We're travelling in the USA in September/October (hiring car and driving)
>for 7 weeks in September/October. We start in Atlanta, thence to Tn and on
>to the New England area for most of our time. We want a mobile (cell) phone
>to keep in touch with family in Australia.
>
>Will a pre-paid tracfone give us reasonable coverage in New England?
>
>Should we choose a gsm or CDMA tracfone?
>
>Can you recommend another better option?

I can't comment on the coverage for the east coast, but on a recent
road trip through the western US, I discovered that the coverage on my
(GSM) Tracfone wasn't anything like what they claim on their coverage
maps.

YMMV.

Dennis (evil)
--
The honest man is the one who realizes that he cannot
consume more, in his lifetime, than he produces.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Washing slacks vs. dry cleaning
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/55e33f24da02c518?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 26 2007 12:47 pm
From: Rick

Jack Ricci wrote:
>
> My wife was given slacks that appear expensive and the label requires
> dry cleaning. We seldom use dry cleaning as in most cases my wife washes
> by hand, very carefully and has not had problems. She hesitates on this
> one as it is a gift and she doesn't know how much it costs. She even
> considered returning them to the gift giver to be exchanged for washable
> slacks, but that is no longer an option as she wore the slacks, twice!
>
> The brand is "Elizabeth." This is what the label says: 90 percent rayon,
> 10 percent wool, lining 100 percent acetate. Dry cleaning is very
> expensive, and we cannot really afford to have the slacks dry cleaned,
> even once a month would soon be more than the basic cost of the slacks,I
> think. Any suggestions anyone? Thanks.

When my sister was working for an airline all their uniform apparel was
marked "dry clean only." And I know it was a weird blend. The pants were
rayon lined as well. Since this was everyday work wear - no choice in
the matter - and even the suit jacket was subject to getting trashed in
a single trip, dry cleaning costs would get prohibitive in very short
order. (And it wasn't practical either if you needed the suit jacket
right away for the next trip.)

Anyway, she never had a problem machine washing any of it - including
the suit jackets and vests - gentle cycle only, just regular laundry
soap, cold water only. Line dry only - no dryer.

Rick

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Why I hate Washington Mutual (a rant)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/02d22dacefd6cc05?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 26 2007 1:17 pm
From: frey@encompasserve.org (Sharon)

In article <qtida311nmp0ki7ika2mhvcjl91ln5t85n@4ax.com>, Abe <noone@nowhere.com> writes:
>>You seem to be over the top on this. You wanted to take out a very large
>>sum of cash, that the bank either didn't have on hand when you wanted it
>>or for some reason they felt very uncomfortable transferring that amount
>>of cash to you. They lost a check order - whoopee. And you don't even
>>know if it was actually the bank that lost the check order.
>
> I disagree with cash on hand issue. I have worked in banking, even
> small neighborhood branches, and 30 grand is nothing. Even the
> smallest branches have many times that in the vault.

Honest question, why would an individual need $30,000 in cash, as opposed to a
cashier's check? I'm curious. I've needed to withdraw that much or more a few
times, generally downpayments for real estate, but I've always been happy with
cashier's checks. (Although a wheelbarrow full of cash would be fun...)

- Sharon
"Gravity... is a harsh mistress!"

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 26 2007 1:27 pm
From: "Chloe"

"Sharon" <frey@encompasserve.org> wrote in message
news:RBCFApENSrgZ@eisner.encompasserve.org...
> In article <qtida311nmp0ki7ika2mhvcjl91ln5t85n@4ax.com>, Abe
> <noone@nowhere.com> writes:
>>>You seem to be over the top on this. You wanted to take out a very large
>>>sum of cash, that the bank either didn't have on hand when you wanted it
>>>or for some reason they felt very uncomfortable transferring that amount
>>>of cash to you. They lost a check order - whoopee. And you don't even
>>>know if it was actually the bank that lost the check order.
>>
>> I disagree with cash on hand issue. I have worked in banking, even
>> small neighborhood branches, and 30 grand is nothing. Even the
>> smallest branches have many times that in the vault.
>
> Honest question, why would an individual need $30,000 in cash, as opposed
> to a
> cashier's check? I'm curious. I've needed to withdraw that much or more
> a few
> times, generally downpayments for real estate, but I've always been happy
> with
> cashier's checks. (Although a wheelbarrow full of cash would be fun...)

I have to admit, I wondered the same thing (at least as far as a legal
transaction goes <g>). It does seem like an unusual enough request that I
wouldn't be surprised if a bank branch couldn't (or wouldn't) immediately
accommodate it. I'd probably phone first if I really wanted to avoid a
hassle.

That said, I've read enough ugly customer stories about WaMu that I'd
personally avoid banking with them.

I ordered checks from my bank a couple years ago and they never arrived. The
bank closed the account and opened a new one. They claimed that most of the
time when checks never show up they've been stolen from the mail system,
including from the customer's mailbox. As a heads-up (and I have no idea if
this is accurate), the manager told me mailbox thefts are a major cause of
identity theft, too.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 26 2007 1:29 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Sharon <frey@encompasserve.org> wrote
> <noone@nowhere.com> writes

>>> You seem to be over the top on this. You wanted to take
>>> out a very large sum of cash, that the bank either didn't
>>> have on hand when you wanted it or for some reason they
>>> felt very uncomfortable transferring that amount of cash to
>>> you. They lost a check order - whoopee. And you don't even
>>> know if it was actually the bank that lost the check order.

>> I disagree with cash on hand issue. I have worked in banking,
>> even small neighborhood branches, and 30 grand is nothing.
>> Even the smallest branches have many times that in the vault.

> Honest question, why would an individual need $30,000 in cash,
> as opposed to a cashier's check? I'm curious. I've needed to
> withdraw that much or more a few times, generally downpayments
> for real estate, but I've always been happy with cashier's checks.
> (Although a wheelbarrow full of cash would be fun...)

The drug barons prefer cash.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 26 2007 2:35 pm
From: William Souden

Rod Speed wrote:
> Sharon <frey@encompasserve.org> wrote
>> <noone@nowhere.com> writes
>
>>>> You seem to be over the top on this. You wanted to take
>>>> out a very large sum of cash, that the bank either didn't
>>>> have on hand when you wanted it or for some reason they
>>>> felt very uncomfortable transferring that amount of cash to
>>>> you. They lost a check order - whoopee. And you don't even
>>>> know if it was actually the bank that lost the check order.
>
>>> I disagree with cash on hand issue. I have worked in banking,
>>> even small neighborhood branches, and 30 grand is nothing.
>>> Even the smallest branches have many times that in the vault.
>
>> Honest question, why would an individual need $30,000 in cash,
>> as opposed to a cashier's check? I'm curious. I've needed to
>> withdraw that much or more a few times, generally downpayments
>> for real estate, but I've always been happy with cashier's checks.
>> (Although a wheelbarrow full of cash would be fun...)
>
> The drug barons prefer cash.
>
>
And financial companies are required to report cash transactions
exceeding $10,000.
By the way, some people were making multiple payments for new cars
over several days to avoid the requirement but the Treasury Department
said it was to be considered part of the same transaction.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Frugal pre-paid funeral expenses?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ce3b2b4cec57072f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 26 2007 1:33 pm
From: bb90125@yahoo.com

On Jul 24, 12:35 pm, Dennis <dg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:17:36 -0700, "the_vermina...@comcast.net"
>
> <the_vermina...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >The mostfrugalthing is to donate your body to science.
>
> Much morefrugalto sell it!
>
> Here is a website that calculates how much your corpse might be worth:
>
> http://mingle2.com/cadaver-calculator
>
> (Note: I am not selling anything. The website in the link might be,
> but it is easy enough to ignore. I am not affiliated with them in any
> way, yada-yada-yada.)
>
> Dennis (evil)
> --
> "There is a fine line between participation and mockery" - Wally

Thank you everyone for the responses. Yes, this will be a suicide
situation. My family has never been a fan of cremation, but at the
same time I don't want to put them thru having to selecting a casket,
tombstone, and all the other stuff. If I can take care of all that
ahead of time by pre-paying, that will save them both money and
inconvenience. My father in particular would be plenty upset about
having to come up with another $9,000 for funeral expenses. I figure
if I can take care of this stuff ahead of time it will be a win-win
situation in terms of the expense and headaches.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Grocery Coupons On Line?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/aeda6d7b03017e94?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 26 2007 1:33 pm
From: "jaygreg"

Anyone know of a website that contains grocery coupons or a list of
groceries "on sales" for any given locale? I believe I saw such a sote some
time ago. It was written up in the local paper as a start-up website that
planned to charge a nominal fee for a subscription. I can go to the webpages
of each major grocer in the area but they don'e permit a search and it's too
time consuming for me.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Esurance is HORRIBLE for motorcycle quotes.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d5e39a8484cd06ef?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 26 2007 2:50 pm
From: jeffw@cyte.com

I'm a big fan of letting other people know when a company is
fraudulent.

Esurance advertises low quotes. I would at least take this to mean
competitive quotes. Maybe even twice as high as other providers.
Something in a reasonable ball park. But...

They just quoted me a $6,000 annual premium on a motorcycle.

Let me break that down for you... That is over ELEVEN TIMES what
two other companies would provide the EXACT same coverage
for.

Now, you're thinking... I've done something wrong. Made bad
choices, have a DUI or something like that.

Well here's my deal:
Male, 38yo
No accidents or citations in the past three years.
No major citations EVER.
I've had a drivers license since I was 16 and a CA
motorcycle license for the past 3 years.
This means I am eligible for Driving Safety Record
and California Good Driver discounts.

My vehicle:
2006 Yamaha YZF-R6 (600cc)
new purchase price: $10,999.00
No damage, never laid down/tipped over.

Kept in a gated garage of my apartment.

Coverages requested:
bodily injury: 50K/100K
property damage 50K
500 deductible comprehensive
500 deductible collision
uninsured motor vehicle Bodily injury 30K/60K
uninsured motor vehicle property damage

This is all pretty standard for somebody who
rents.

Here's what the competition has to say:
State Farm: $551.66 per year (current provider)
California Casualty: $535.00 per year

now get this...
Esurance:.... $6,000.00 per year.

SIX THOUSAND!!! for a driver with nothing
bad in his history and standard coverage!
I made the agent go over my personal
details and the coverage just to make sure
they didn't type in something vastly wrong.
Yep, six thousand per year.

THAT is certainly not competitive. It is so non-competitive
that either Esurance is being fraudulent or they have
made a big mistake somewhere.

Esurance: if you want me to post a retraction to this then
figure out what you screwed up and call me back.
Your auto quote for my 1995 GMC was decent. You
lost that sale solely on the basis that you screwed up
the motorcycle.

==============================================================================

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Google Groups: http://groups.google.com?hl=en

22 new messages in 12 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: MAGIC TRICKS
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/b772c73e3da26773?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 25 2007 3:50 pm
From: "www.Queensbridge.us"

On Jul 23, 2:13 am, takecare...@gmail.com wrote:
> The Secret of Magic Tricks are revealed here! Learn street magic
> tricks, bar magic tricks, card tricks, coin tricks, etc. Easy lessons
> and magician secrets revealed. Dedicated for beginners who want to
> start learning secret magic tricks step by step.
>
> http://secretmagictricks.blogspot.com/

In NYC
The Funny Store
a magic shop in business since 1974 is closing due to building being
torn down.

Probably will have a lot of bargains.
It is on 8 Avenue near 43 Street.

--
Incredibly low long distance phone rates. As low as USA-Canada 1.9CPM!
Works as prepaid phone card. PIN not needed for calls from home or
cell phone. Compare the rates at https://www.OneSuite.com No monthly
fee or minimum. Use Promotion/SuiteTreat Code: "FREEoffer23" for FREE
time. Works FROM many other countries.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Breast-Feeding: Private Act or Public Right?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d9ae679497789a49?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 25 2007 3:53 pm
From: Dubh Ghall

On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 16:48:38 -0500, bearclaw@cruller.invalid wrote:

>In article <2eiea3t4ibls64rvi622oq8kkhohc6186f@4ax.com>,
> Dubh Ghall <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote:
>
>> Why were you gnashing your one tooth, was your one synapse,
>> overloading?
>
>y? because we like you em oh you ess ee

I'll take that as a "yes".

The spelling like any opinion stated here
is purely my own

#162 BAAWA Knight.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 25 2007 6:27 am
From: "John Weiss"

"jdoe" <jdoe@aol.com> wrote...
> that is the crux of the issue, if mom wants to walk down the middle of
> the street and breast feed, she's making a spectacle of herself.
> it's just as easy and is actually beneficial to the baby to find a
> quiet out of the way spot to feed the child.
>
> Both my children were breast fed and we never had issues because my
> wife had the sense, the dignity and the class to find an appropriate
> place to feed.

I think the REAL crux of the issue is that we have gotten to the point that
many of us have forgotten what breasts were originally designed for --
feeding babies! Any place that is "appropriate" for bottle feeding should
be equally "appropriate" for breast feeding!

A woman feeding her baby need not make a "spectacle" of herself regardless
of the feeding method she chooses. I have seen women discretely breast
feeding their babies in MANY public places, and most passers-by never even
noticed!

Let's worry about REAL problems! Just don't let the baby starve!

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 25 2007 4:55 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

John Weiss <jrweiss@nospamattglobal.net> wrote:
> "jdoe" <jdoe@aol.com> wrote...
>> that is the crux of the issue, if mom wants to walk down the middle
>> of the street and breast feed, she's making a spectacle of herself.
>> it's just as easy and is actually beneficial to the baby to find a
>> quiet out of the way spot to feed the child.
>>
>> Both my children were breast fed and we never had issues because my
>> wife had the sense, the dignity and the class to find an appropriate
>> place to feed.
>
> I think the REAL crux of the issue is that we have gotten to the
> point that many of us have forgotten what breasts were originally
> designed for -- feeding babies! Any place that is "appropriate" for
> bottle feeding should be equally "appropriate" for breast feeding!
>
> A woman feeding her baby need not make a "spectacle" of herself
> regardless of the feeding method she chooses. I have seen women
> discretely breast feeding their babies in MANY public places, and
> most passers-by never even noticed!
>
> Let's worry about REAL problems! Just don't let the baby starve!

The brat wont starve when it gets the tit in its mouth in an appropriate place.

Just like people dont explode when they arent allowed to crap in the street either.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 25 2007 4:57 pm
From: bearclaw@cruller.invalid

In article <p6lfa3piaeqieru0d2h2a5mnk8091rtibe@4ax.com>,
Dubh Ghall <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote:

> I'll take that as a "yes".

But of course you would.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: long distance
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3958949a13d8893f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 25 2007 4:01 pm
From: "www.Queensbridge.us"

On Jul 20, 4:25 am, "mrtdddejspioewhfq"
<mrtdddejspioew...@mrtdddejspioewhfq.com> wrote:
> Does anyone know if this is possible:
>
> I make very few long distance calls. My current long distance has been
> creeping up the minimum monthly charge (it started as no minimum and is now
> 3.50 plus tax). I'd like to cancel my long distance service that I currently
> have and instead use some type of prepaid card where I call a local number
> and then enter the long distance number I would like to call.
>
> My questions are:
>
> Will a local phone company allow someone to have local service without any
> long distance provider?
> Will I be able to recieve long distance calls?
> Can I call 800 numbers with just local service ( I assume 800 calls won't be
> free if I use the prepaid card)?
>
> I know there are long distance services that don't charge a monthly minimum
> but they require credit card info and an ssn to do a credit check so I'd
> rather avoid them if I can.
>
> Are there any recommendations for prepaid long distance? It would have to be
> something where the time doesn't expire since I don't want to have to be
> buying more time every so often.
>
> Thanks

I had my local telco remove all long distance from my lines

As another user here, I am also a OneSuite customer. Incredibly low
long distance phone rates. As low as USA-Canada 1.9CPM! Works as
prepaid phone card. PIN not needed for calls from home or cell phone.
Compare the rates at https://www.OneSuite.com No monthly fee or
minimum. Use Promotion/SuiteTreat Code: "FREEoffer23" for FREE time.
Works FROM many other countries.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Watch Free Satellite TV on your PC or Laptop
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c33e88b9fb059ec4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 25 2007 4:08 pm
From: George Grapman

www.Queensbridge.us wrote:
> On Jul 24, 1:16 pm, Camron S <camronst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> SATELLITE TV for PC - Amazing Software which Instantly Turns your
>> Computer into a Super TV!
>>
>> Get over 3000 Stations.
>>
>> Watch all your favorite shows on your Computer!
>>
>> Save 1000's of $$$ over many years on cable and satellite bills.
>>
>> INSTANT DOWNLOAD
>>
>> Know More About It:http://tvonpc.xt.cx
>
> Between Google video, YouTube Video and Veoh video
> where does one fit in 3000 more stations?
>
> How does above work anyway?
>
> --

Reader thinks it is legal and possible.
Reader gives them credit card information.
Reader never gets channels and as a bonus becomes a victim of
identity theft.
Site has no contact details.

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 25 2007 4:35 pm
From: gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston)

In article <46A6C000.55B68B0D@rcn.com>, Rick <rickajho@rcn.com> wrote:
>The Real Bev wrote:
[ ... ]
>> 4. I recently inherited a couple of WaMu accounts, for which I needed to
>> order checks. I spent an hour in the branch (they have guard-operated
>> double doors now, possibly with poison gas available Just In Case) watching
>> the bankdroid order checks and verify the new statement address. The checks
>> were supposed to arrive within 7-10 working days.

>> Here it is two months later. No checks. Statements still forwarded from
>> the old address. I went back into the branch where I ordered the checks.
>> They had no record of the order. Moreover, they didn't seem at all
>> concerned that A F*CKING BANK TRANSACTION HAD SIMPLY EVAPORATED. They
>> rush-ordered more checks, waived the fee ($20 for 150 checks is ridiculous)
>> and said they'd call me when they arrived at the bank (I figured that was a
>> more reliable address than mine).

http://www.checksunlimited.com

That's where I've been getting my checks for years; highly recommended.
Great service, and lots of designs if you're interested.

>Look, it happens. They didn't lose a transaction. "They" - and "they"
>could be a bank employee, a post office employee or the place that
>prints the checks - lost a check order request. It wasn't a transaction.
>You didn't lose any money.

Really? What do you call the $20 for the original batch of checks, if it
wasn't a transaction?

And it _had_ to be someone at the bank who lost it--anyone else, and the
bank would have had a record of the order.

>> At no time during any of these transactions did a single bank employee offer
>> an apology. Nobody wondered why I was closing out my accounts. When I
>> close these accounts I bet nobody will ask why. I'm going to tell them
>> anyway. Loudly.

Send the president of the bank a letter. Verbal complaints to the droids
behind the teller window won't go any further.

>You seem to be over the top on this. You wanted to take out a very large
>sum of cash, that the bank either didn't have on hand when you wanted it
>or for some reason they felt very uncomfortable transferring that amount
>of cash to you.

For a transaction over $10,000, they have to do paperwork. They probably
didn't want to. The probability that they didn't have it is near zero.
They failed to provide a reasonable service to a customer.

> They lost a check order - whoopee. And you don't even
>know if it was actually the bank that lost the check order.

If anyone else lost it, the bank would have had the record of it--the
bank most definantly lost it.

Gary

--
Gary Heston gheston@hiwaay.net

http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/

Yoko Onos' former driver tried to extort $2M from her, threating to
"release embarassing recordings...". What, he has a copy of her album?

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 25 2007 6:35 pm
From: Rick

Abe wrote:
>
> >You seem to be over the top on this. You wanted to take out a very large
> >sum of cash, that the bank either didn't have on hand when you wanted it
> >or for some reason they felt very uncomfortable transferring that amount
> >of cash to you. They lost a check order - whoopee. And you don't even
> >know if it was actually the bank that lost the check order.
>
> I disagree with cash on hand issue. I have worked in banking, even
> small neighborhood branches, and 30 grand is nothing. Even the
> smallest branches have many times that in the vault.

Me too. And the policy at my bank was if a customer wanted over
$10,000.00 in cash in a single withdrawal the bank required 3 days
advance notice. If we had it on hand that wasn't a problem. But the head
teller wasn't about to wipe out a huge percentage of small bills on hand
to accomodate a single customer to the detriment of all the other
customers - including keeping the ATM at the branch loaded. The amount
in real numbers of cash exchanged back and forth versus checks deposited
and account to account transfers was relatively small and got even
smaller once debit cards for accounts were introduced. But like I said,
different banks have different policies and different levels of hard
currency cash flow.

Rick

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Inexpensive, Easy Process To Produce Solar Panels
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1eb5a91cbd2518db?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 25 2007 6:11 pm
From: "Don K"

"bob" <bob@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:46a98c93.1182484@news.east.earthlink.net...
> "Don K" wrote:
>>"bob" wrote:
>>> Decentralized power such as this, could be a threat to the fear-based
>>> boys who run the show.
>>
>>Nice job of turning a scientific anouncement into a political statement.
>
> Politics is entwined in economics.
> There is no free market.
>
> Then again, as the boy said to Neo in the Matrix,
> "there is no spoon".

You seem to be quoting fantasy dialog as if it had meaning.

>>> http://www.njit.edu/publicinfo/press_releases/release_1040.php
>>> "NJIT Researchers Develop Inexpensive,
>>> Easy Process To Produce Solar Panels
>>
>>Ooh, an inexpensive process has been developed to use paint-on solar
>>panels made from single wall carbon nanotubes. One day homeowners
>>will be able to use an inexpensive inkjet printer to print their own
>>solar cells.
>>
>>Great!
>>Let's check the price of these inexpensive carbon nanotubes...
>
> The link you gave says very little about solar panels. Your reference
> was like pointing at a forest and saying "Look, there's all the toilet
> paper you could want!". Sure, you could use a pine cone as toilet
> paper, but that's not very efficacious, is it?

It pointed out that plain vanilla carbon nanotube "paint" without
the added buckeyballs costs $250 per gram.

Your press announcement indicated that a paper was written describing
a process that adds carbon buckyballs to carbon nanotubes which
could potentially increase nanotube electrical efficiency when excited
by photons.

Beyond that, the headlined claim that an inexpensive process has been
developed to produce solar panels is just extrapolated hype.

> How much of a one-time payment would you make to be able to quit
> paying your never-ending electric bill? Expensive as they are now, a
> solar panel system could be done, if you have the cash and can do the
> work. Would you like to see your electric meter run backwards, selling
> electricity to the utility at the same price they sell to you? It's
> legal and doable. The carbon nanotube application could make it much
> easier and cheaper.

The magic words here are could, might, maybe, perhaps, promising,
someday, etc.

This paper may turn out to be a significant step along the way, but let's
wait until the engineers actually develop something before claiming
it is developed.

Don

==============================================================================
TOPIC: how to turn $12 into $6,000!!!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ce1206e086fa0334?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 25 2007 6:23 pm
From: "Bob F"

<maxcash123@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1185378492.140697.17220@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> easy money this is an investment opportunity for serious people
> only!!! how to turn $12 into $6,000!!!!!! reading this could change
> your life! it changed mine...

Readers - don't be fooled. There are much better scams available, which can turn
$6 into $6000. Don't fall for this inflated version of this illegal scam.

Bob

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 25 2007 6:39 pm
From: Harry K

On Jul 25, 3:37 pm, KLS <xyme...@suds.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 09:43:17 -0700, RW Salnick <saln...@no.spam.org>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >Anthony Matonak brought forth on stone tablets:
> >> Harry K wrote:
> >> ...
>
> >>> Yep. We lived with an icebox until 1948 when REA came through. A
> >>> messy appliance needing regular care. The lack of a freezing
> >>> capability would kill any 'market' except for the die hard "back-to-
> >>> nature" types.
>
> >> Perhaps we could have the best of both worlds. Start with an ice house
> >> filled with trays of water/ice that has automatic doors or shutters
> >> which open when the temperature outside is below freezing. Perhaps even
> >> designed to make use of prevailing winds or including some kind of fan.
> >> Attached to this could be a fridge and/or freezer using a heat pump
> >> with a heat exchanger inside the ice house.
>
> >> You would get the modern features of an ordinary fridge or freezer
> >> with minimal energy use. If you're located somewhere without lots of
> >> cold weather then perhaps one of those solar ice makers could be used.
>
> >> Anthony
>
> >Better yet: Take advantage of modern technology while minimizing energy
> >usage.
>
> >Build the icehouse, and use it as the heat sink for conventional
> >refrigeration. Would take essentially zero energy to move heat downhill
> >from a 40 degree fridge to a 32 degree ice block. And not much more to
> >move it uphill from a 0 degree freezer to the 32 degree ice block.
> >Would work great for air conditioning too. Much better than pumping the
> >heat uphill into a 72 degree environment (conventional fridge/freezer),
> >or even worse, into a 90-100 degree environment (airconditioning)
>
> These are great ideas, and I'm going to think about incorporating them
> all into any building plans I make, along with the solar panels I'd
> like to install for heating the house water. We're in western New
> York, so this could work really well. The more passive, the better!
> [fyi, posting from misc.consumers.house, so followups directed
> elsewhere will elude my attention]- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Yes, some ideas that seem workable. Just keep in mind that unless it
provides for frozen food storeage all year round it will be a non-
starter.

Harry K

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 25 2007 8:20 pm
From: Anthony Matonak

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> RW Salnick <salnick@no.spam.org> wrote:
>
>> Build the icehouse, and use it as the heat sink for conventional
>> refrigeration.
...
>> Would work great for air conditioning too.
>
> Not enough ice.

It's just a question of scale, isn't it? One could figure out how
much ice is needed to keep their house cold throughout the year
and then build an ice house big enough.

I'm thinking one of those cheap steel buildings the size of a small
hanger with a foot or so of spray foam insulation on the inside. :)

Any idea of just how much ice would we be talking about?

Anthony

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 25 2007 8:36 pm
From: WDS

On Jul 25, 10:20 pm, Anthony Matonak
<anthony...@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
> nicksans...@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> > RW Salnick <saln...@no.spam.org> wrote:
>
> >> Build the icehouse, and use it as the heat sink for conventional
> >> refrigeration.
> ...
> >> Would work great for air conditioning too.
>
> > Not enough ice.
>
> It's just a question of scale, isn't it? One could figure out how
> much ice is needed to keep their house cold throughout the year
> and then build an ice house big enough.
>
> I'm thinking one of those cheap steel buildings the size of a small
> hanger with a foot or so of spray foam insulation on the inside. :)
>
> Any idea of just how much ice would we be talking about?

You realize that transporting, storing, and stacking that much ice is
going to cost you more than running your AC?

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 25 2007 8:38 pm
From: "Morris Dovey"

Anthony Matonak wrote:
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
|| RW Salnick <salnick@no.spam.org> wrote:
||
||| Build the icehouse, and use it as the heat sink for conventional
||| refrigeration.
| ...
||| Would work great for air conditioning too.
||
|| Not enough ice.
|
| It's just a question of scale, isn't it? One could figure out how
| much ice is needed to keep their house cold throughout the year
| and then build an ice house big enough.
|
| I'm thinking one of those cheap steel buildings the size of a small
| hanger with a foot or so of spray foam insulation on the inside. :)

Erm... My shop is /in/ a small hanger (you can see pix by following
the links at the page below) - and I'm curious as to what you consider
to be a "cheap" building. I'm thinking that just the insulation you've
described would be fairly spendy...

| Any idea of just how much ice would we be talking about?

Ah yes - this is the important question.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/interest.html

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 25 2007 8:48 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Anthony Matonak <anthonym40@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote
> nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote
>> RW Salnick <salnick@no.spam.org> wrote

>>> Build the icehouse, and use it as the heat sink for conventional refrigeration.
> ...
>>> Would work great for air conditioning too.

>> Not enough ice.

> It's just a question of scale, isn't it?

Only in theory.

> One could figure out how much ice is needed to keep their house cold throughout the year and then
> build an ice house big enough.

Problem is that that ends up impractically big, wont even fit on the block.

> I'm thinking one of those cheap steel buildings the size of a small
> hanger with a foot or so of spray foam insulation on the inside. :)

> Any idea of just how much ice would we be talking about?

More than is practical.

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 25 2007 7:06 pm
From: "A Mate"

We're travelling in the USA in September/October (hiring car and driving)
for 7 weeks in September/October. We start in Atlanta, thence to Tn and on
to the New England area for most of our time. We want a mobile (cell) phone
to keep in touch with family in Australia.

Will a pre-paid tracfone give us reasonable coverage in New England?

Should we choose a gsm or CDMA tracfone?

Can you recommend another better option?

Thanks

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 25 2007 8:24 pm
From: Brontide

On Jul 25, 10:06 pm, "A Mate" <ma...@Australia.com.au> wrote:
> We're travelling in the USA in September/October (hiring car and driving)
> for 7 weeks in September/October. We start in Atlanta, thence to Tn and on
> to the New England area for most of our time. We want a mobile (cell) phone
> to keep in touch with family in Australia.
>
> Will a pre-paid tracfone give us reasonable coverage in New England?
>
> Should we choose a gsm or CDMA tracfone?
>
> Can you recommend another better option?
>
> Thanks

New england/east coast is a strong CDMA area ( Verizon/AllTel )
although if you plan on being in the boonies you should spring for a
CDMA phone that also has analog. It looks like you will be covered on
your entire trip by using a CDMA tracfone. Tracfone also has the
advantage that you can call australia without any additional costs/
minutes being used ( if I'm reading their pages correctly ). At an
effective rate of ~20c/minute it's not horrible, but I would minimize
it's use and rely on international calling cards when you have a
landline around.

I'm not as familiar with GSM coverage for your areas so I can't tell
you that it will be better with GSM, but I do see that CDMA should
cover you.

-Eric

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 25 2007 8:43 pm
From: Brontide

A Mate wrote:
> We're travelling in the USA in September/October (hiring car and driving)
> for 7 weeks in September/October. We start in Atlanta, thence to Tn and on
> to the New England area for most of our time. We want a mobile (cell) phone
> to keep in touch with family in Australia.
>
> Will a pre-paid tracfone give us reasonable coverage in New England?
>
> Should we choose a gsm or CDMA tracfone?
>
> Can you recommend another better option?
>
> Thanks

For more info you can check out the helpful fourms here.

http://howardforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=330

-Eric

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Linux Laptop
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9bb62df64823c6a1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 25 2007 9:32 pm
From: Darth Chaos

On Jul 13, 12:23 am, Ken <klope...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> mwmiller...@gmail.com wrote innews:1184269655.779322.163870@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Is there a laptop that can run / or comes installed with linux or some
> > version of unix? available to the common consumer?
>
> > Any help appreciated
>
> Madtux.org at the following address has several desktop computers and one
> laptop. I just received myFreespirePC yesterday and I'm putting it thru
> its paces.
>
> http://store.madtux.org/product_info.php?cPath=57&products_id=298
>
> Enjoy.
> Ken
> ________

Ever since I started using Ubuntu, I have to say I like GNOME better
than KDE. Of course I tried the most recent Release Candidate of
Freespire 2.0 on my laptop, and everything on my laptop (except for
the dial-up modem) worked out of the box...even wifi worked out of the
box. The modem drivers were readily available on linuxant.com, and it
uses the same modem drivers that Ubuntu uses (since Freespire and
Linspire are now based on Ubuntu).

I thought it was pretty good. If you want the newest Freespire, you
can either wait for the official release of Freespire 2.0 or download
the most recent Release Candidate.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Loads of Freebies
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1d282a8014b0c38f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 25 2007 10:14 pm
From: Bailey

Loads of Freebies

http://www.cafemom.com/group/freebiesrock

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Frugal Recipes
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8576de00c156dacd?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Jul 25 2007 10:16 pm
From: Bailey

Frugal Recipes

http://www.frugalsimplicity.com