Frugal Living: Jun 9, 2008

Monday, June 9, 2008

25 new messages in 12 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Oil Boycott: Non oil based products?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c81559a594ac920c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jun 9 2008 10:32 am
From: Paul M. Eldridge

On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 12:28:08 -0400, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:

>Paul M. Eldridge wrote:
>> On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 10:00:33 -0400, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> It seems to me that the best short term energy source is the SUV
>>> gasification plan. There's a large supply of them and you can run two +
>>> cars on the energy released from one SUV.
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>
>> Hi Jeff,
>>
>> Do we gas just the SUVs or the SUVs and their owners? =:-O
>
>Hmmm, the energy recovered from the owners has got to be huge!
>
> It's time to take away tax breaks for building McMansions and driving
>mega SUVs.
>
> Jeff
>
Hi Jeff,

Funny, I was asking myself earlier what the energy content of a 250-lb
SUV driver clutching a double glazzed Dunk'n Donut might be...

With respect to McMansions and SUVs....

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601072&refer=energy&sid=a4kOXcpI3dQg

To bring one comment up-to-date, crude oil is now trading between
$135.00 and $140.00 a barrel, and the Henry Hub and NYC gate spot
price for natural gas are $12.71 and $14.09 per MM BTU respectively.

Cheers,
Paul

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jun 9 2008 11:47 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote
> Jimington wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote
>>>> Bill wrote

>>>>> Seems to me both manufacturers of products and consumers are fed
>>>>> up with these high oil prices. I think the manufacturers would
>>>>> like to get away from oil based materials if possible. Maybe
>>>>> consumers can help them do this by buying non-oil based products
>>>>> when available...

>>>> I'm a little surprised at the shift to non petroleum sources.
>>>> Goodyear is using more natural rubber and other manufacturers are
>>>> subbing oils such as rapeseed. Trouble for them is those products are rising in cost also.
>>>> 2.6% of all petroleum is used for the production of all plastics
>>>> 80% of all petroleum is used for gasoline, jet and diesel fuel and
>>>> home heating fuels 17.2% of all petroleum is used for the production of asphalt, road
>>>> oils and lubricants http://www.polystyrene.org/news/PSPC_flyer.pdf
>>>> Where are the whales now that we need their oil?

>>> The Japs have eaten them.

>> That's unlikely, they seem to have lost their taste for them, so it's
>> hardly going to be economic for any whaling ships to work at all.

>> What's puzzling is why coal to oil production hasn't increased by a
>> huge scale. It also has the side benefit of outputting CO2, which of
>> course will spur plant growth.

> And what a lovely side benefit that is.

> I suppose that there are three issues at work, the need for carbon
> sequestration that you have mentioned, the relative shortage and
> rising costs of coal and the huge capital costs of the plants.

There is no 'relative shortage' of coal.

> There's a lot more coal that can be brought online, and the carbon
> sequestration is easier to do for this (separating out is easier,
> storage remains an issue), then for straight coal fired plants.

> I believe congress has allocated $20B for syn fuel generation,

Nope.

> but I can't find a reference to it.

> What does seem to be happening is the US Air Force has a strong
> interest in this as you can make high quality synthetic aviation fuels.

You can make anything you like. What matters is what it cost to do that.

> B52's have recently been certified to fly on a 50 50 blend.

> The only large scale plants now online are two in South Africa

Which are only viable there because they have no oil at all.

> and there appears to be one being built in China.

> It seems to me that the best short term energy source is the SUV gasification plan. There's a large supply of them and
> you can run two + cars on the energy released from one SUV.

You can run 10 cars on each bloated american gasified.

Pity about the pollution produced in the process tho.

>> The current price for oil certainly makes processing coal attractive now.

>>>>> So the question: What products can I buy at the store which are
>>>>> not oil based nor have oil based packaging? What do I look for?
>>>>> I did find this on the internet...
>>>>> http://www.greenhome.com

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jun 9 2008 12:36 pm
From: Jimington

On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 20:27:01 +1000, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

>Jimington <wvzubqtr@gfa.pp> wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote
>>>> Bill wrote
>
>>>>> Seems to me both manufacturers of products and consumers are fed
>>>>> up with these high oil prices. I think the manufacturers would like to get
>>>>> away from oil based materials if possible. Maybe consumers can help
>>>>> them do this by buying non-oil based products when available...
>
>>>> I'm a little surprised at the shift to non petroleum sources.
>>>> Goodyear is using more natural rubber and other manufacturers are
>>>> subbing oils such as rapeseed. Trouble for them is those products
>>>> are rising in cost also.
>
>>>> 2.6% of all petroleum is used for the production of all plastics
>
>>>> 80% of all petroleum is used for gasoline, jet and diesel fuel and home heating fuels
>
>>>> 17.2% of all petroleum is used for the production of asphalt, road oils and lubricants
>
>>>> http://www.polystyrene.org/news/PSPC_flyer.pdf
>
>>>> Where are the whales now that we need their oil?
>
>>> The Japs have eaten them.
>
>> That's unlikely, they seem to have lost their taste for them, so it's
>> hardly going to be economic for any whaling ships to work at all.
>
>They're so bloody minded about it that they'll keep killing them anyway.

Yeah but they're never going to have the effect on numbers that the
occidental whalers did in centuries past. It's hardly even newsworthy
except as a milking cow for greenpeace to drain the wallets of well
intentioned animal lovers.

>
>> What's puzzling is why coal to oil production hasn't increased by a huge scale.
>
>Thats because it isnt economic at the current price of oil.

A bit of quick research leads me to believe the $80 per that
antiquated barrel mark would make CTL viable.

>
>What we have seen is a big increase in the use of coal stream gas.
>
>> It also has the side benefit of outputting CO2, which of course will spur plant
>> growth. The current price for oil certainly makes processing coal attractive now.
>
>Not yet.

If not yet, it must be damned close to it, especially when we live in
a region with abundant coal. I don't see the CO2 thing as an issue and
even believe increasing it will lead to a lush green world.

>
>>>>> So the question: What products can I buy at the store which are
>>>>> not oil based nor have oil based packaging? What do I look for?
>
>>>>> I did find this on the internet...
>>>>> http://www.greenhome.com
>

Jim
www.inghamcam.info

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jun 9 2008 1:35 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Jimington <wvzubqtr@gfa.pp> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Jimington <wvzubqtr@gfa.pp> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote
>>>>> Bill wrote

>>>>>> Seems to me both manufacturers of products and consumers are fed
>>>>>> up with these high oil prices. I think the manufacturers would like to
>>>>>> get away from oil based materials if possible. Maybe consumers can
>>>>>> help them do this by buying non-oil based products when available...

>>>>> I'm a little surprised at the shift to non petroleum sources.
>>>>> Goodyear is using more natural rubber and other manufacturers are
>>>>> subbing oils such as rapeseed. Trouble for them is those products
>>>>> are rising in cost also.

>>>>> 2.6% of all petroleum is used for the production of all plastics

>>>>> 80% of all petroleum is used for gasoline, jet and diesel fuel and home heating fuels

>>>>> 17.2% of all petroleum is used for the production of asphalt, road oils and lubricants

>>>>> http://www.polystyrene.org/news/PSPC_flyer.pdf

>>>>> Where are the whales now that we need their oil?

>>>> The Japs have eaten them.

>>> That's unlikely, they seem to have lost their taste for them, so it's
>>> hardly going to be economic for any whaling ships to work at all.

>> They're so bloody minded about it that they'll keep killing them anyway.

> Yeah but they're never going to have the effect on numbers
> that the occidental whalers did in centuries past. It's hardly
> even newsworthy except as a milking cow for greenpeace
> to drain the wallets of well intentioned animal lovers.

Sure, but since they kept claiming that its just scientific research
and not because they want to eat them, they have no choice but to
continue with the whaling even if no one wants to eat them anymore,
because if they stopped now, that would prove that they lied.

They've never had the balls to admit to what they got up to in china etc during the war.

>>> What's puzzling is why coal to oil production hasn't increased by a huge scale.

>> Thats because it isnt economic at the current price of oil.

> A bit of quick research leads me to believe the $80 per
> that antiquated barrel mark would make CTL viable.

Not for a new plant. Its viable for South Africa because they built the plants when
they had no choice due to sanctions and that coal isnt readily exportable now.

>> What we have seen is a big increase in the use of coal stream gas.

>>> It also has the side benefit of outputting CO2, which of course
>>> will spur plant growth. The current price for oil certainly makes
>>> processing coal attractive now.

>> Not yet.

> If not yet, it must be damned close to it, especially when we live in a region with abundant coal.

Nope, it makes a lot more sense to concentrate on coal stream gas instead,
and thats what we are doing and the yanks have done for a long time now.

> I don't see the CO2 thing as an issue

They do tho. Thats what matters.

> and even believe increasing it will lead to a lush green world.

Nope, you dont get that result in a desert with even doubling the CO2 level.

And we didnt get that effect in this country from the big increase
in the CO2 level seen since before the industrial revolution either.

>>>>>> So the question: What products can I buy at the store which are
>>>>>> not oil based nor have oil based packaging? What do I look for?

>>>>>> I did find this on the internet...
>>>>>> http://www.greenhome.com

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jun 9 2008 7:32 pm
From: Jeff

Paul M. Eldridge wrote:

Hi Paul,

> On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 12:28:08 -0400, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>
>> Paul M. Eldridge wrote:
>>> On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 10:00:33 -0400, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> It seems to me that the best short term energy source is the SUV
>>>> gasification plan. There's a large supply of them and you can run two +
>>>> cars on the energy released from one SUV.
>>>>
>>>> Jeff
>>> Hi Jeff,
>>>
>>> Do we gas just the SUVs or the SUVs and their owners? =:-O
>> Hmmm, the energy recovered from the owners has got to be huge!
>>
>> It's time to take away tax breaks for building McMansions and driving
>> mega SUVs.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
> Hi Jeff,
>
> Funny, I was asking myself earlier what the energy content of a 250-lb
> SUV driver clutching a double glazzed Dunk'n Donut might be...

I think it's worth doing the research!
>
> With respect to McMansions and SUVs....
>
> http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601072&refer=energy&sid=a4kOXcpI3dQg

Considering that's Bloomberg, it must be sobering to it's readers.
>
> To bring one comment up-to-date, crude oil is now trading between
> $135.00 and $140.00 a barrel, and the Henry Hub and NYC gate spot
> price for natural gas are $12.71 and $14.09 per MM BTU respectively.

It took a while for those numbers to sink in. And it's a staggering cost
to industry, and for the homeowner it bodes badly. I just checked per
therm fixed rate 1 year contracts here and they are running about
$1.70/therm, that doesn't include delivery charges, which could be
another buck. And those prices seem likely to soar if the spot is where
it is now.

Well, I feel pretty good about my solar investment and the fact that
the wood pile is stocked and the house is insulated. But most people
haven't done that.

Jeff

>
> Cheers,
> Paul

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jun 9 2008 9:01 pm
From: Jimington

On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 06:35:03 +1000, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

>Jimington <wvzubqtr@gfa.pp> wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Jimington <wvzubqtr@gfa.pp> wrote
>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote
>>>>>> Bill wrote
>
>>>>>>> Seems to me both manufacturers of products and consumers are fed
>>>>>>> up with these high oil prices. I think the manufacturers would like to
>>>>>>> get away from oil based materials if possible. Maybe consumers can
>>>>>>> help them do this by buying non-oil based products when available...
>
>>>>>> I'm a little surprised at the shift to non petroleum sources.
>>>>>> Goodyear is using more natural rubber and other manufacturers are
>>>>>> subbing oils such as rapeseed. Trouble for them is those products
>>>>>> are rising in cost also.
>
>>>>>> 2.6% of all petroleum is used for the production of all plastics
>
>>>>>> 80% of all petroleum is used for gasoline, jet and diesel fuel and home heating fuels
>
>>>>>> 17.2% of all petroleum is used for the production of asphalt, road oils and lubricants
>
>>>>>> http://www.polystyrene.org/news/PSPC_flyer.pdf
>
>>>>>> Where are the whales now that we need their oil?
>
>>>>> The Japs have eaten them.
>
>>>> That's unlikely, they seem to have lost their taste for them, so it's
>>>> hardly going to be economic for any whaling ships to work at all.
>
>>> They're so bloody minded about it that they'll keep killing them anyway.
>
>> Yeah but they're never going to have the effect on numbers
>> that the occidental whalers did in centuries past. It's hardly
>> even newsworthy except as a milking cow for greenpeace
>> to drain the wallets of well intentioned animal lovers.
>
>Sure, but since they kept claiming that its just scientific research
>and not because they want to eat them, they have no choice but to
>continue with the whaling even if no one wants to eat them anymore,
>because if they stopped now, that would prove that they lied.
>
>They've never had the balls to admit to what they got up to in china etc during the war.
>
>>>> What's puzzling is why coal to oil production hasn't increased by a huge scale.
>
>>> Thats because it isnt economic at the current price of oil.
>
>> A bit of quick research leads me to believe the $80 per
>> that antiquated barrel mark would make CTL viable.
>
>Not for a new plant. Its viable for South Africa because they built the plants when
>they had no choice due to sanctions and that coal isnt readily exportable now.

Good point. I wonder how long before industry decides to take a gamble
on the oil price staying high enough to be viable. There's no
guarantee oil will remain at current prices even though they've
conditioned us to expect it.
>
>>> What we have seen is a big increase in the use of coal stream gas.
>
>>>> It also has the side benefit of outputting CO2, which of course
>>>> will spur plant growth. The current price for oil certainly makes
>>>> processing coal attractive now.
>
>>> Not yet.
>
>> If not yet, it must be damned close to it, especially when we live in a region with abundant coal.
>
>Nope, it makes a lot more sense to concentrate on coal stream gas instead,
>and thats what we are doing and the yanks have done for a long time now.
>
>> I don't see the CO2 thing as an issue
>
>They do tho. Thats what matters.
>
>> and even believe increasing it will lead to a lush green world.
>
>Nope, you dont get that result in a desert with even doubling the CO2 level.
>
>And we didnt get that effect in this country from the big increase
>in the CO2 level seen since before the industrial revolution either.

Pity that water is needed too and that something that isn't overly
plentiful.

>
>>>>>>> So the question: What products can I buy at the store which are
>>>>>>> not oil based nor have oil based packaging? What do I look for?
>
>>>>>>> I did find this on the internet...
>>>>>>> http://www.greenhome.com
>

Jim
www.inghamcam.info

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jun 9 2008 9:43 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Jimington <wvzubqtr@gfa.pp> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Jimington <wvzubqtr@gfa.pp> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Jimington <wvzubqtr@gfa.pp> wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>> Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote
>>>>>>> Bill wrote

>>>>>>>> Seems to me both manufacturers of products and consumers are
>>>>>>>> fed up with these high oil prices. I think the manufacturers would
>>>>>>>> like to get away from oil based materials if possible. Maybe
>>>>>>>> consumers can help them do this by buying non-oil based
>>>>>>>> products when available...

>>>>>>> I'm a little surprised at the shift to non petroleum sources.
>>>>>>> Goodyear is using more natural rubber and other manufacturers are
>>>>>>> subbing oils such as rapeseed. Trouble for them is those products
>>>>>>> are rising in cost also.

>>>>>>> 2.6% of all petroleum is used for the production of all plastics

>>>>>>> 80% of all petroleum is used for gasoline, jet and diesel fuel and home heating fuels

>>>>>>> 17.2% of all petroleum is used for the production of asphalt, road oils and lubricants

>>>>>>> http://www.polystyrene.org/news/PSPC_flyer.pdf

>>>>>>> Where are the whales now that we need their oil?

>>>>>> The Japs have eaten them.

>>>>> That's unlikely, they seem to have lost their taste for them, so it's
>>>>> hardly going to be economic for any whaling ships to work at all.

>>>> They're so bloody minded about it that they'll keep killing them anyway.

>>> Yeah but they're never going to have the effect on numbers
>>> that the occidental whalers did in centuries past. It's hardly
>>> even newsworthy except as a milking cow for greenpeace
>>> to drain the wallets of well intentioned animal lovers.

>> Sure, but since they kept claiming that its just scientific research
>> and not because they want to eat them, they have no choice but to
>> continue with the whaling even if no one wants to eat them anymore,
>> because if they stopped now, that would prove that they lied.

>> They've never had the balls to admit to what they got up to in china etc during the war.

>>>>> What's puzzling is why coal to oil production hasn't increased by a huge scale.

>>>> Thats because it isnt economic at the current price of oil.

>>> A bit of quick research leads me to believe the $80 per
>>> that antiquated barrel mark would make CTL viable.

>> Not for a new plant. Its viable for South Africa because
>> they built the plants when they had no choice due to
>> sanctions and that coal isnt readily exportable now.

> Good point. I wonder how long before industry decides to take
> a gamble on the oil price staying high enough to be viable.

I doubt they will with coal to oil any time soon.

It makes a lot more sense to do coal seam gas instead with the coal and use
shale oil as a source of oil when it looks like the price of crude oil will stay high
enough for long enough to justify that. Coal seam gas is already very viable.

> There's no guarantee oil will remain at current prices

Yep, its less than clear what the current prices will do to OPEC etc.

> even though they've conditioned us to expect it.

>>>> What we have seen is a big increase in the use of coal stream gas.

>>>>> It also has the side benefit of outputting CO2, which of course
>>>>> will spur plant growth. The current price for oil certainly makes
>>>>> processing coal attractive now.

>>>> Not yet.

>>> If not yet, it must be damned close to it, especially when we live in a region with abundant coal.

>> Nope, it makes a lot more sense to concentrate on coal seam gas instead,
>> and thats what we are doing and the yanks have done for a long time now.

>>> I don't see the CO2 thing as an issue

>> They do tho. Thats what matters.

>>> and even believe increasing it will lead to a lush green world.

>> Nope, you dont get that result in a desert with even doubling the CO2 level.

>> And we didnt get that effect in this country from the big increase
>> in the CO2 level seen since before the industrial revolution either.

> Pity that water is needed too and that something that isn't overly plentiful.

Its very plentiful in the north and didnt produce that effect there either.

>>>>>>>> So the question: What products can I buy at the store which are
>>>>>>>> not oil based nor have oil based packaging? What do I look for?

>>>>>>>> I did find this on the internet...
>>>>>>>> http://www.greenhome.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Just Canceled Cable TV
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/6cd6ada4aaa4d5bc?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Jun 9 2008 10:44 am
From: Samantha Hill - remove TRASH to reply

What about satellite? It's getting better and more affordable.

Ken wrote:
>
> A disadvantage now is I can't get broadband internet without the TV
> feed. And my phone company does not (and likely never will) run DSL out
> where I live. So I'm stuck with a 45k dial-up connection. Forget about
> DLing most software - takes many hours and usually my connection gets
> dropped.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Jun 9 2008 1:26 pm
From: The Real Bev

Ken wrote:

> A disadvantage now is I can't get broadband internet without the TV
> feed.

Are you absolutely sure? They've already run cable to your house and
their incremental cost to give you broadband again is just about zero.
Make them an offer they can't refuse!

Mine is willing to negotiate if you get the right person.

--
Cheers,
Bev
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
He's your god. They're your rules. *You* burn in hell!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Tracfone
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/56cc0a72df54a2f6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jun 9 2008 10:45 am
From: Samantha Hill - remove TRASH to reply

You can recharge your phone online, and if you don't use it much, you
buy the minimum card and just purchase extra days, and you save money
that way.

troll wrote:
>
> I've had Tracfone about a year. It's good but lately I've had trouble
> finding a 60 min./ 90 day card.
> So, I popped for the year card/ about $8 a month. lot's of units.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Gasoline breaks through $4.00 a gallon
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/bb94fea1c432a5b3?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jun 9 2008 11:02 am
From: John

Hi,

ya, as you have mentioned the fuel prices are increasing at a brisk
rate. We need to use the fuel efficiently. We can find a lot articles
on how to use fuel efficiently in this URL,
http://www.buyingadvice.com

On Jun 9, 2:32 am, Paul M. Eldridge <paul.eldri...@ns.sympatico.ca>
wrote:
> On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 13:30:12 -0700 (PDT), Al Bundy
>
>
>
> <MSfort...@mcpmail.com> wrote:
> >Paul M. Eldridge wrote:
> >> On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 07:44:14 -0700 (PDT), Al Bundy
> >> <MSfort...@mcpmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> >Paul M. Eldridge wrote:
> >> >> According to the AAA, the U.S. national average for regular unleaded
> >> >> now exceeds $4.00 a gallon.
>
> >> >Thank you for this timely news Paul.
> >> >What can you tell us about summer? Will it be hot?
>
> >> Yes, it will be, especially under the collar. ;-)
>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Paul
>
> >Ever since I was a kid, I enjoyed Good Humor.
>
> Mais Oui ! C'est moi... l'homme de bonne humeur !
>
> Cheers,
> Paul

==============================================================================
TOPIC: BANKRUPTCY LAWYER
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5ba26b8db863b07c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jun 9 2008 11:09 am
From: KANMANI

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Outdoor Living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3cd27202cdbd6f99?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jun 9 2008 11:24 am
From: Winder

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Gasoline "Boycott": The Next Generation
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/7b5aa5d3dc9c38b8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Jun 9 2008 11:50 am
From: "Rod Speed"

George <george@nospam.invalid> wrote
> The Real Bev wrote
>> Shawn Hirn wrote
>>> Starrfleat@gmail.com wrote

>>>> Obviously, gasoline prices have gotten asinine.

>>> Not at all. The price of gas in the United States is still a bargain. Most Americans have become spoiled by
>>> unrealistically low gas prices.

>> Having the freedom to travel when and where we want is NOT being
>> spoiled, it's the way EVERYBODY should be and until recently that's
>> the way we were. Stuffing us into slow public transportation is a
>> step backward, not forward.

> Quite frankly we are an embarrassment compared to other countries.

Because most of the US is much less dense population wise than places like Japan.

> I made frequent and extensive trips to Japan and it was always a
> pleasure to take efficient mass transit anywhere you needed to go.

Pity that you can fit the entire place into the space that NY occupys.

And I cant see too many yanks being happy with the tiny places they 'live' in.

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Jun 9 2008 1:42 pm
From: The Real Bev

Shawn Hirn wrote:

> The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> We've paid the standard taxes all our life. We've paid our dues along
>> with the dues of a lot of other people. I let the welfare recipients
>> use my roads, the least they could do is say thank you and not throw
>> trash on them.
>
> Right. Me too; however, the federal gas tax and most states' gas taxes
> are nowhere near enough to cover the entire cost of road and bridge
> construction and maintenance.

Back when California had the best roads in the country ALL state gas
taxes went to road creation/maintenance. Then some vicious bastards
introduced an initiative to transfer some amount of gas tax money to the
general fund and the feeble-minded idiots voted it in. At that point
our roads started to go downhill. Then later on some other jerks put up
an initiative (referendum?) to add some transportation-only gas tax and
the idiots voted that in too. They didn't happen to notice that
"transportation" included trains, etc., no matter how inefficient they
might be.

Somebody in a letter to the editor did the math (or claimed to, anyway)
showing that considering all costs each passenger-trip on the gold line
costs $65. No idea if it's true, but I don't see why it couldn't be.

> A lot of the money spent by many states on
> road and bridge maintenance comes from sources other than gas taxes.

I suspect that mixing up the sources of funding for ALL government
operations muddies the waters sufficiently that they can always convince
the feeble-minded idiots that no matter what the problem is a new tax
can solve it. Since those idiots don't pay income taxes anyway, why NOT
vote for it?

> Same for the feds. In order to pay for all the billions of dollars in
> long-delayed road and bridge maintenance that's occurring nation-wide,
> gas taxes need to go up a lot, or other federal budgets need to be
> tapped, there's o way around it. Rebuilding that bridge in Minnesota,
> that collapsed last August has to be paid somehow, and that's just one
> bridge.

Tough. California pays more tax to the feds than it gets back and our
infrastructure is in rotten shape too -- and we have EARTHQUAKES.

> Just in the past two weeks, Governor Rendell put out a report that
> something like 1,800 bridges in Pennsylvania are in serious need of
> repair ... yet he said he doesn't have the money in his budget to fix
> all of them this year. So who do you think should pay for all those
> bridge repairs? Where is the money going to come from? Further, what
> makes you think other states aren't in a similar situation?

I'm sure they are. So let's see what fat our lawmakers can cut out in
order to fix the stuff that REALLY needs fixing. Surely that bridge to
nowhere wasn't the only bit of fluff...

--
Cheers,
Bev
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
He's your god. They're your rules. *You* burn in hell!

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Jun 9 2008 1:52 pm
From: The Real Bev

Napoleon wrote:

> <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Having the freedom to travel when and where we want is NOT being
>>spoiled, it's the way EVERYBODY should be and until recently that's the
>>way we were. Stuffing us into slow public transportation is a step
>>backward, not forward.
>
> Absolutely not. We're going to Norway next week and will be using
> public transportation for ALL our travel. We are traveling throughout
> the country - including the Arctic Circle.
>
> If America would spend some money on its own infrastructure, instead
> of wasting it on destroying the infrastructures of other countries,
> then you would see public transportation as essential and efficient.

For some things, sure. But not if you value privacy and the ability to
make your own choices about where and when you go.

I'm pretty sure we haven't despoiled Norway's infrastructure, though.
If you find that we have, take pix and report back.

> Other countries have high speed bullet trains, metro systems, bus
> systems, etc., that work quite well. In fact, America used to have
> wonderful public transportation (trains, buses and electric cable cars
> were the norm), before the car came along. There was a time I could
> hop on a train and be in the Adirondacks (3 hours from my house) in
> the same amount of time (or less) than it takes in a car. But that was
> in the late 1800's and early 1900's.

How old did you say you were? No wonder you're not driving any more.

> Now we've gone backwards, and I
> have to use a gas-guzzling car, do my own driving, sit in traffic
> jams, and then find places to park.

I guess an equivalent would be hopping on the train and going to Death
Valley. Oh, wait, there's NEVER been a train from LA to Death Valley.
I might be able to get a bus next week, but I'll probably have to
transfer a couple of times, miss a few connections and have overnight
layovers and it will cost roughly as much as a plane trip -- or more.

And why would I want to do that? The whole point of Death Valley is
isolation...

--
Cheers,
Bev
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
He's your god. They're your rules. *You* burn in hell!

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Jun 9 2008 1:55 pm
From: clams_casino

Shawn Hirn wrote:

>Right. Me too; however, the federal gas tax and most states' gas taxes
>are nowhere near enough to cover the entire cost of road and bridge
>construction and maintenance.
>

Furthermore, gas taxes don't begin to cover the military costs of
protecting oil sources.

IMO, such military costs should be paid for via gas taxes.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Jun 9 2008 2:01 pm
From: The Real Bev

George wrote:

> When they built
> the interstate highway system they decided to go for show so their
> budget might have been enough for say 100 miles of a good road they
> decided to build 120 miles by cutting corners and using less steel and
> concrete on the bridges for example than would be used with standard
> designs. I know people who worked on the designs and our state
> university engineering lab came to the exact same conclusion that the
> bridges would still be in good condition if more materials were used.

Theory had it that the interstate system was built primarily for defense
rather than civilian purposes. Perhaps it was expected that most of it
would be destroyed in the coming nuclear holocaust anyway and it would
be stupid to build for the ages.

Duck and cover. DROP!

--
Cheers,
Bev
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
You know how dumb the average person is?
Well, by definition, half are *even dumber*!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: frugal towels?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/7e4690da26b3e36b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Jun 9 2008 12:08 pm
From: Dan Birchall

bashley101+usenet@gmail.com (The Real Bev) wrote:
> 92 seconds is way too long and you can buy a lot of towels for 300 lb.
> "No heating element." So what does it use, friction?

Antimatter?

I liked "Can be used to dry fully clothed personnel" - now I don't have
to take my clothes off for the shower!

--
Some people wear black t-shirts to make some kind of fashion statement.
I'm the type who wears black t-shirts because they don't show the blood.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Jun 9 2008 1:23 pm
From: The Real Bev

Dan Birchall wrote:

> bashley101+usenet@gmail.com (The Real Bev) wrote:
>> 92 seconds is way too long and you can buy a lot of towels for 300 lb.
>> "No heating element." So what does it use, friction?
>
> Antimatter?
>
> I liked "Can be used to dry fully clothed personnel" - now I don't have
> to take my clothes off for the shower!

They also said it was suitable for cruise ships or something like that.
Perhaps they have a large fallen-overboard clientele.

--
Cheers,
Bev
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
He's your god. They're your rules. *You* burn in hell!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Does one point EER make a big diff in energy efficiency?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/bc91eb4ccf208fb9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Jun 9 2008 12:31 pm
From: phil scott

On Jun 9, 7:45 am, m...@privacy.net wrote:
> phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
> >for sleeping only you are running it in a much cooler time frame.. and
> >only for a few months... get the cheapeer unit and a fan for not so
> >hot days.... I was in mexico last year for a few weeks and the motel
> >had a fan only, by the bed...worked fine.
>
> Agree buts it probably humid in Mexico, is it?
>
> I'm in north Missouri and very humid here in the summer

get the ac... use fan when its workable only. those are cheap... will
save a lot on running the ac.

run the ac to keep the room at 80F then the fan directly over the bed
will keep you cool.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Jun 9 2008 2:12 pm
From: The Real Bev

me@privacy.net wrote:

> phil scott <phil@philscott.net> wrote:
>
>>for sleeping only you are running it in a much cooler time frame.. and
>>only for a few months... get the cheapeer unit and a fan for not so
>>hot days.... I was in mexico last year for a few weeks and the motel
>>had a fan only, by the bed...worked fine.
>
> Agree buts it probably humid in Mexico, is it?

We drove to just south of Acapulco to see the solar eclipse in July 1991
and the humidity -- and mosquitos -- got worse and worse the further
south we went. The eclipse was neat, but we cut it short and headed
back north because the bugs were so miserable. Still, a great experience.

> I'm in north Missouri and very humid here in the summer

Everything east of the Rockies is very humid in the summer :-(

--
Cheers,
Bev
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
You know how dumb the average person is?
Well, by definition, half are *even dumber*!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Sometimes it just doesn't work
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9ad81274179c279d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jun 9 2008 8:17 pm
From: gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston)

In article <cq-dnQbfWKvlhdDVnZ2dnUVZ_qjinZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Derald <derald@invalid.net> wrote:
>hchickpea@hotmail.com wrote:
[ ... ]

> it went for about the fuel
>cost of dragging the whole ball of wax to 'Bama behind my old ragged-out
>f150 -- which would have provided another opportunity to "camp" in the
>Monte Sano park.

And if you were lucky, your truck wouldn't break down going up Governors
Drive after that 1,000 mile trip.

> Damn; if I'd had a clue.... Haven't been to Hvlle since
>1997; my older brother was a principal in "John's Photo", which had a
>store just up the street from the War Criminal Center.

You have a brother here? Don't think you've mentioned that previously.

> Don't guess I
>should have mentioned the tractor, huh?

The Chickpea Karma is likely to start roosting above you. Be ready.

>>when I let some thistle head, I've been having more of them come up.
> LOL. Mow'em early and mow'em often ;-) I'm in a part of Florida
>that was settled by Scots because it is within the extreme southern
>range of thistle! In fact, I put fences around thistles (AWA around many
>other migratory and/or "butterfly" wildflowers) so as *not* to mow them
>until after seeds have dispersed.

You may have just converted Harry to not mowing the thistles. One of the
things they're enjoying the most about having moved to the area is hearing
and watching all the birds. Ensuring a food supply ensures more birds to
watch. (Note to self: pick up a bag of sunflower seeds before next visit.)

Gary

--
Gary Heston gheston@hiwaay.net

http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/
"a member or members of Osama bin Ladens' Al Qaeda network, posing as
computer programmers, were able to gain employment at Microsoft..."
claim made by Mohammed Afroze Abdul Razzak to police in India, 12/01.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: #####SOUTH INDIAN SEX GIRLS SEX######
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f0509e3dd26a798d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jun 9 2008 10:33 pm
From: ghgfhyghghghgh

####### SEX SEX ONLY SEX SOUTH INDIAN SEX ########

NOT BIO TECH ONLY SEX

ROMANCE SEX

SENAR MARIYA OPAN SEX LIVE

http://www.nabble.com/forum/PrintPost.jtp?post=16744664

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Inexpensive car radio?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1b899db711e6062b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jun 9 2008 11:57 pm
From: Dan Birchall

invalid@invalid.com (Ken) wrote:
> Where'a a good, preferably local, place to buy a very basic reliable
> generic radio for a 20-year-old pickup? Just the AM/FM with a couple of
> station buttons. No CD, tape, high power, GPS, fancy displays, quad
> sound, etc. needed. Chinese junk or good stuff?
>
> Radio Shack, Wal-Mart, Best Buy, ... Who?

If you really want barebones feature sets, I'd say Radio Shack, or even
a flea market. Most of the others are probably going to try to sell you
something with more buttons than an big-city elevator.

--
"Infirm indeed are my bones, and the hair of my head doth glisten with
grey: but never am I unblest."

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6 new messages in 3 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Just Canceled Cable TV - 3 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/6cd6ada4aaa4d5bc?hl=en
* Gasoline "Boycott": The Next Generation - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/7b5aa5d3dc9c38b8?hl=en
* Tracfone - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/56cc0a72df54a2f6?hl=en

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Jun 8 2008 8:21 pm
From: Dennis

On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 13:18:59 -0700, The Real Bev
<bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Dennis wrote:
>> Lost episodes are available online at http://abc.go.com.

Quite good
>> video quality and you only have to put up with 3 or 4 30-second
>> comercials. You can even start/stop/pause/replay the video like a
>> PVR.
>
>Or you can record them onto the DVR's HD or DVD off the air and then
>watch them all at once skipping over the commercials. Much more
>enjoyable --

I do record Lost on my PVR (OTA in HDTV), but we watch them once a
week as the season progresses. Agreed, the skipping commercials part
does make a big difference in the enjoyment level. But I find that I
lose interest/overload after watching the second or third episode
back-to-back.

I didn't start watching until Season 2, so the ABC site has been nice
for me to catch up on the Season 1 details/backstories that I missed.

> you don't have to keep saying "Huh? Where did HE come from?"
>
>When continuity counts, watching one episode per week is unsatisfactory.

Not a problem for me, and my wife has me to fill her in for her "Huh?"
moments. ;-)

Dennis (evil)
--
I'm behind the eight ball, ahead of the curve, riding the wave,
dodging the bullet and pushing the envelope. -George Carlin

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Jun 8 2008 9:37 pm
From: Samantha Hill - remove TRASH to reply

Dennis wrote:
>
> Lost episodes are available online at http://abc.go.com.

Quite good
> video quality and you only have to put up with 3 or 4 30-second
> comercials.

It's only available to people in the US, though, but I agree, it was a
great move to put it on HD on the web.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Jun 8 2008 9:38 pm
From: Samantha Hill - remove TRASH to reply

Gordon wrote:
> Since then we have been finding that the internet is full
> of TV programming. The kids watch all the Squarebob they
> want over the internet, and Joost has enough on demand
> programing to add veriety.

You have found Hulu, right?

www.hulu.com

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Jun 8 2008 8:47 pm
From: don@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein)

In article <7OZ2k.91$Mk4.62@newsfe05.lga>, The Real Bev wrote:
>Shawn Hirn wrote:
>
>> Starrfleat@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Obviously, gasoline prices have gotten asinine.
>>
>> Not at all. The price of gas in the United States is still a bargain.
>> Most Americans have become spoiled by unrealistically low gas prices.
>
>Having the freedom to travel when and where we want is NOT being
>spoiled, it's the way EVERYBODY should be and until recently that's the
>way we were. Stuffing us into slow public transportation is a step
>backward, not forward.

Most Americans still have legs and feet and can afford bikes.

Freedom to travel in America appears to me to have historically been on
Americans' own nickels unless the travel is along subsidized routes via
subsidized vehicles. Please do consider vehicle codes of most of the 50
states giving preference to those whose vehicles are "The Two Cadillacs" -
as in their shoes.

Also consider that in most, possibly all of 50 of America's "states"
bicycles are legal vehicles with same rights and responsibilities as cars
unless "official traffic control devices" say otherwise (such as lane
restrictions, most of which exclude cars and trucks). As far as I know in
PA and in at least most of the other 49 USA "states", bicycles are
"street-legal vehicles" but exempted from requirements for insurance,
registration, title, inspection and tags, along with having a lower
standard to meet for lights should they be operated at nighttime.

My experience in/near Philadelphia is in addition that *mostly* (I
disclaim any guarantee) that police officers *mostly* do not stop and
ticket cyclists for running red lights as long as the cyclists stop and
yield to pedestrians and vehicles who have green lights.

(CAUTION - failure to stop for a red light and failure to come to a full
stop at a stop sign is ticketable in PA with 3 points on the vehicle
operator's license. My sense is that "culturally" in my region of PA that
stopping at stop signs mainly has to be done to the extent to avoid
at-fault crashes, and that cyclists "culturally" only need to stop for red
lights to yield to whoever has a green light.)

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Jun 8 2008 9:57 pm
From: The Real Bev

Shawn Hirn wrote:

> In article <7OZ2k.91$Mk4.62@newsfe05.lga>,
> The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Shawn Hirn wrote:
>>
>> > Starrfleat@gmail.com wrote:
>> >
>> >> Obviously, gasoline prices have gotten asinine.
>> >
>> > Not at all. The price of gas in the United States is still a bargain.
>> > Most Americans have become spoiled by unrealistically low gas prices.
>>
>> Having the freedom to travel when and where we want is NOT being
>> spoiled, it's the way EVERYBODY should be and until recently that's the
>> way we were. Stuffing us into slow public transportation is a step
>> backward, not forward.
>
> Wrong. Public transit is a viable means of transportation for millions
> of people in some of the world's greatest cities and it works better
> than private transportation.

As long as it goes where you want to go and when you want to go and lets
you take the stuff you want to take. I've used public transportation
maybe a dozen times in the last several years -- since we got a Metro
station a quarter of a mile away. I went to the Staples center to see
some friends become citizens and I've gone to Chinatown a number of
times because the grandspawn think riding trains is neat. Those trips
would have been faster by car, but they were done for recreational
rather than practical purposes.

I'm trying to figure out just what public transportation we and our
bicycles and our camping equipment could take to get to Moab by tomorrow
night. I don't think I'm gonna make it.

That's freedom to travel, and when we lose it it will be a BIG loss.

> The problem with the United States is that
> far too many urban and suburban areas are poorly served by public
> transportation. You have a right to travel where you want, but you also
> have a responsibility to pay the full cost of your travel expenses if
> you want the luxury of private transportation.

We've paid the standard taxes all our life. We've paid our dues along
with the dues of a lot of other people. I let the welfare recipients
use my roads, the least they could do is say thank you and not throw
trash on them.

--
Cheers, Bev
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Why should I be tarred with the epithet "loony" merely
because I have a pet halibut? --Monty Python

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Jun 8 2008 9:33 pm
From: Samantha Hill - remove TRASH to reply

GMTA!!!!

h wrote:
>
> What a total pain in the ass! I make less than one call a year, so having to
> dig the phone out and use it every two months would be a drag. If you forget
> to make the call does the phone stop working? How ridiculous.

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Frugal Living

Blog Archive

Monday, June 9, 2008

25 new messages in 12 topics - digest

6 new messages in 3 topics - digest