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* Doctor getting kickbacks? - 9 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/faff268312f0b359?hl=en
* A Toyota makes you dumb; a bicycle makes you smart --Autobahn issue - 14
messages, 5 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/3ebd4f06ad340d18?hl=en
* Do Americans know what a PASSING LANE is? - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/0d691215837945ab?hl=en
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Doctor getting kickbacks?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/faff268312f0b359?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 9 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 12:02 am
From: Samantha Hill
ok wrote:
>
> Ok point taken. However, if a doctor does thousands of the
> same procedure, same codes at the same facility and then
> CLAIMS he has no idea of the costs, something is very fishy.
> Also using the same insurance companies.
They may be the same insurance companies, but insurance companies have
multiple plans, so it's not like everybody with Blue Cross has exactly
the same coverage. Every employer can have different options. As I
said, the doc knows EXACTLY what his cash-pay price is and he quotes
cash-pay prices to patients all the time, but for those with insurance,
he refers them back to their insurance company to get the scoop, because
the insurance company will not tell us.
> Look at all these
> people that are made poor by hidden medical costs. I have
> noticed many physicians are not adverse to padding the bills
> to Medicare with very high claims for procedures that pay
> alot less when billed under an HMO or private party.
That's ridiculous, because Medicare has fixed amounts that they will pay
regardless of what the physician charges -- and many insurance companies
base their payments on a certain percentage of Medicare (typically 90%
of Medicare at our office)
> Clean up medicine. Make it more honest. Doctors should take
> some leadership in this and that does not mean these jerks
> that try to get patients to pay several thousand dollars in
> advance and refuse all insurance.
Unfortunately, the insurance companies are holding all the cards.
== 2 of 9 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 12:13 am
From: Samantha Hill
JohnDoe@BadISP.org wrote:
>> Actually, I think that if the insurance company says, "We will authorize
>> this procedure and pay $$$ as per our contracted rate," then they should
>> be made to pay it.
>
> Perhaps because the insurance company and the MD have a contract? Ya
> know, the "contracted rate" you refer to. If they agree to an amount
> and then don't pay, the MD's argument is with the insurance company
> not the customer.
The contract with the MD and insurance company is not for coverage; it
is only for payment rates. The MD is not the customer of the insurance
company, and the insurance company certainly is not the customer of the
doctor. There have been many times at our office when the insurance
company reneged, and the doctor has absolutely NO recourse because the
insurance company holds all the cards.
I suppose the simplest solution for the doctor would be to say, "I will
not take patients who want me to assign their insurance benefits to me.
I will only take patients who will pay me directly and then collect
their insurance benefit themselves." This is how practically every
other business operates.
> Depending on the insurance, you might have an
> insurance-owned body shop which does the work with no cost to you
> other than the deductible or a private shop which negotiates an amount
> (usually a quote) with the insurance company usually via a loss
> assessor. No surprises!
Well, if you are saying that the doctor should own everything so he can
control costs, then what about the people who don't want to go to a
facility owned by the doctor because they are convinced that he/she will
be getting kickbacks?
I have Kaiser Permanente insurance. Everybody in Kaiser is an employee,
not an independent contractor. They control costs well because they
have their hand on everything, and patients generally don't get
surprised by bills that the insurance company sticks them with. I agree
that this is a very efficient model. On the other hand, I fear for one
entity owning all the health-care insurance in this country because I
have seen lots of bad situations where a patient's health care was
controlled by one gatekeeper, and I don't want to see that happen. I
had a friend who suffered from specific medical problem for years
because she had one gatekeeper for her health care who would only
consider one treatment for the problem that was an unacceptable solution
to her and refused to consider other equally-valid and equally-respected
treatments well known to the medical community at large. So I would
oppose a gatekeeper-type approach to health care.
== 3 of 9 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 12:15 am
From: Samantha Hill
Rod Speed wrote:
>
> Essentially because its nowhere near as easy to predict
> what total services the individual needs with a serious
> medical problem, like for example when the individual
> ends up with a very serious infection that costs a hell
> of a lot to fix. You dont get anything like that with cars.
Actually, I did once. I hit something on the freeway at night with my
car and it did a lot of damage to my engine, and they really couldn't
see everything that was wrong until they started getting in there and
taking everything apart.
Other than that, I think you are spot-on.
== 4 of 9 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 12:17 am
From: Samantha Hill
Rod Speed wrote:
>
> Nope, nothing like it. With a car where it turns out that when
> the part is removed, its clear that the engine is completely
> beyond any possibility of economic repair, they can
> always ring you and ask you what you want to do about that,
> whether you want to pay for a new engine as well etc.
And if some people here had their say, I guess the auto mechanic should
just eat that cost because it was higher than the estimate, right? I
don't think so.
I was shocked when President Obama said that doctors should not be paid
for their services if they don't cure the patient. Human beings are not
built to a standard, and there is no one-size-fits-all solution to every
problem a human being can come across.
== 5 of 9 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 12:23 am
From: Samantha Hill
Gordon Burditt wrote:
>> Oh, my doc could absolutely give fixed quotes for cash prices for office
>> visits and procedures.
>
> I doubt it. There are at least three sets of prices:
> 1. The amount the doctor bills the insurance company. This cost is pretty
> much irrelevant to the insured. It could hurt the uninsured a lot.
>
> 2. The contract amount for the procedure. An in-network doctor can't
> charge more than this amount. This amount gets paid by the insurance
> company and the patient, divided somehow.
>
> 3. The amount paid by the patient. This can be affected by things like
> how much deductible he hasn't used yet.
>
> *ALL THREE* of those prices are highly variable depending on your insurance
> company.
But that's not what a cash-pay price is. A cash-pay price is what the
doctor will charge if he doesn't have to get involved with any insurance
company. So your response had nothing to do with what you were
responding to.
>> And that is why health insurance is so different than medical
>> insurance.
>
> Would you care to define "health insurance", "medical insurance", and
> state the difference between the two?
Sorry -- I meant "why auto insurance is so different than medical
insurance."
>> Now, if health insurance worked like car insurance, then the patient
>> would have to pay the bill and then be reimbursed by the insurance
>> company,
>
> Some medical services work exactly like that: for example, flu
> shots. You pay for the flu shot, and they give you a receipt and
> YOU file a claim with your insurance company. I've also seen the
> same thing happen with more expensive procedures like a non-routine
> root canal requiring a specialist. These guys *can* give you a (large)
> price and stick to it. You can talk to your insurance company to see
> how much they will pay.
That is when the patient has not assigned their insurance benefits to
the doctor. That is more difficult for the patient to manage, but it
worked for years.
>> Unfortunately, the doc's office is not allowed to bill the patient until
>> he has first billed the primary insurance, then after the primary
>> insurance has paid he has to bill any secondary insurance (and if the
>> patient messed up on giving the doc's office the proper insurance, that
>> gets all messed up)
>
> Some medical services decidedly do *NOT* work that way. The doctor
> doesn't communicate with the insurance company.
Well, when the patient has assigned their insurance benefits to the
doctor, that is exactly how it works. If the patient has not assigned
their insurance benefits to the insurance company, then it doesn't. And
for the record, I have never been to a dentist who has allowed me to
assign my insurance benefits to them.
>> I think that if the insurance companies dealt directly with the patients
>> and just reimbursed the patients for allowable costs instead of the
>> doctors having to fight with them about getting paid, then it wouldn't
>> be quite such a tangled mess for anybody.
>
> Yes, it would be a tangled mess, with the patient having to pass messages
> between the insurance company and the doctor.
That's how it all used to work 30 or 40 years ago or so. So what you
are saying is that the tangled mess needs to be transferred from the
patient to the doctor, I guess. There is no reason why a patient who
takes their itemized medical bill and presents it to their insurance
company for payment should have to pass messages between the insurance
company and the doctor.
== 6 of 9 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 2:49 am
From: "Rod Speed"
Samantha Hill wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Essentially because its nowhere near as easy to predict
>> what total services the individual needs with a serious
>> medical problem, like for example when the individual
>> ends up with a very serious infection that costs a hell
>> of a lot to fix. You dont get anything like that with cars.
> Actually, I did once.
Nope.
> I hit something on the freeway at night with my car and it did a lot of damage to my engine, and they really couldn't
> see everything that was wrong until they started getting in there and taking everything apart.
Thats nothing like a serious problem that was
PRODUCED by the attempt to fix the car.
Thats closer to the other situation where, once they open
the patient up, they discover that the individual has cancer
and that wasnt obvious when they quoted for surgery for
a completely different problem.
> Other than that, I think you are spot-on.
== 7 of 9 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 2:54 am
From: "Rod Speed"
Samantha Hill wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Nope, nothing like it. With a car where it turns out that when
>> the part is removed, its clear that the engine is completely
>> beyond any possibility of economic repair, they can
>> always ring you and ask you what you want to do about that,
>> whether you want to pay for a new engine as well etc.
> And if some people here had their say, I guess the auto mechanic
> should just eat that cost because it was higher than the estimate, right?
Sure, some do run that line, but its clearly a completely unreasonable proposition.
> I don't think so.
I dont either.
> I was shocked when President Obama said that doctors should not be paid for their services if they don't cure the
> patient.
Yeah, he's fool.
> Human beings are not built to a standard, and there is no one-size-fits-all
> solution to every problem a human being can come across.
And anyone with even half a clue wants decent medical services even
if that is just ameliorating the symptoms of an incurable cancer etc.
Mate of mine has just died of an incurable cancer. His quality
of life was much better towards the end because the medical
system dealt with the secondarys appropriately, even tho it
was obvious that those were going to kill him eventually.
== 8 of 9 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 7:59 am
From: JohnDoe@BadISP.org
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>JohnDoe@BadISP.org wrote:
>> Samantha Hill <samhill@samhillsonic.net> wrote:
>> You're probably correct and this is one of the things the recent
>> health care reform should have corrected but probably didn't. It's
>> disgraceful and really not understandable why the courts won't
>> intervene and stop these practices. If you ask for your car to be
>> repaired and the garage gives you a quote that's the maximum
>> they can collect. Why should the human/doctor be any different?
>Essentially because its nowhere near as easy to predict
>what total services the individual needs with a serious
>medical problem, like for example when the individual
>ends up with a very serious infection that costs a hell
>of a lot to fix. You dont get anything like that with cars.
Yes you do. In your case the infection could have been caused by the
intervention (e.g. the problem of MRSA) where it's analogous to the
mechanic, after making repairs to the engine, testing your car without
putting oil in the engine. The engine seizes up and usually the
mechanic is liable for the damage he caused. Alternatively if he can
show it wasn't his fault he can escape the cost of the new engine and
ask the owner what he (the owner) wants to do.
In any event, if the patient (how I hate that demeaning word) is able
to make a decision on his own (he's conscious and of sound mind) the
MD asks him and as part of the asking he tells the patient exactly how
much it is going to cost. How much will be paid by the insurance, how
much by the patient, how much by the malpractice lawsuit. Except for
the cost aspect he has to do this anyway under the doctrine of
informed consent.
If the patient is non-compos-mentis, and the surgery is elective, the
patient should have appointed a person to act on his behalf (same
informed consent doctrine). All that has to be done is to extend that
to "How much, buddy."
Only for emergency surgery would there be any excuse for not providing
a quote in advance and the options to decline etc.
>> The MD should provide a quote in writing after asking the insurance
>> company. If later on they renege (or so he says) he (the MD) eats it!
>It cant work like that with major surgery. There is always the possibility
>of a very serious infection or even once the individual is opened up, the
>surgeon discovers that the individual has a much more complicated
>physiology than was expected or even an early cancer etc.
You keep going on about this serious infection etc, but in these cases
in elective surgery the patient should have made his decisions in
advance. In any event I'd settle for a quote for uneventful surgery
until the MD's are whipped into line.
>> BTW that's how it works for my dentist.
>No it doesnt. If you do develop a serious infection as the
>result of say a crown, he does not fix that entirely at his cost.
Huh? On about this serious infection again. If you develop some
infection as a result of his setting of the crown the dentist should
be worried about lawsuits, not the minor cost of antibiotics.
>> He says (say) he's got to put
>> in a crown at [tooth number]; he sends all the paperwork and x-rays to
>> the insurance company and they approve in advance in writing telling
>> him how much he has to collect from me (the customer). He says he's
>> never had a problem with the insurance company not paying later on and
>> if they didn't he would consider that between him and them, nothing he
>> could recharge to the customer.
>But likely did have a problem when a patient got an infection etc.
Oh, get off the infection kick. Only in abnormal circumstances would
the dentist not know this in advance (e.g. an abscess) and treat it
separately before putting in a crown. The insurance would also pay
separately.
== 9 of 9 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 12:04 pm
From: "Rod Speed"
JohnDoe@BadISP.org wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> JohnDoe@BadISP.org wrote
>>> Samantha Hill <samhill@samhillsonic.net> wrote
>>> You're probably correct and this is one of the things the recent
>>> health care reform should have corrected but probably didn't. It's
>>> disgraceful and really not understandable why the courts won't
>>> intervene and stop these practices. If you ask for your car to be
>>> repaired and the garage gives you a quote that's the maximum
>>> they can collect. Why should the human/doctor be any different?
>> Essentially because its nowhere near as easy to predict
>> what total services the individual needs with a serious
>> medical problem, like for example when the individual
>> ends up with a very serious infection that costs a hell
>> of a lot to fix. You dont get anything like that with cars.
> Yes you do.
No you dont.
> In your case the infection could have been caused by
> the intervention (e.g. the problem of MRSA) where it's
> analogous to the mechanic, after making repairs to the
> engine, testing your car without putting oil in the engine.
Nope, nothing like. Thats just an incompetant repair, the equivalent
to the doctor leaving as swab or an instrument in the individual etc.
The doctor isnt legally responsible for the MRSA infection.
The mechanic is legally responsible for not putting oil in the engine.
> The engine seizes up and usually the mechanic is liable for the damage he caused.
They always are.
> Alternatively if he can show it wasn't his fault
Not even possible if he failed to put any oil in the engine after the repair.
> he can escape the cost of the new engine and
> ask the owner what he (the owner) wants to do.
Only if he lies about what happened.
> In any event, if the patient (how I hate that demeaning word)
I hate the even sillier alternatives like customer or client even more.
> is able to make a decision on his own (he's conscious and of sound mind)
> the MD asks him and as part of the asking he tells the patient exactly
> how much it is going to cost. How much will be paid by the insurance,
The doctor cant tell you that with the stupid american system.
> how much by the patient, how much by the malpractice lawsuit.
He cant tell you that either.
> Except for the cost aspect he has to do this anyway under the doctrine of informed consent.
But its never going to be possible to accurately quantify the risk of
an infection, or the risk that the individual may have a very unusual
physiologogy or an unusual lack of response to medication etc etc etc.
> If the patient is non-compos-mentis, and the surgery is elective,
> the patient should have appointed a person to act on his behalf
> (same informed consent doctrine). All that has to be done is to
> extend that to "How much, buddy."
And its never feasible to cover all possibilitys on that cost question,
particularly with infection or when the doctor discovers that the
individual has some other condition as well that affects the outcome.
> Only for emergency surgery would there be any excuse for
> not providing a quote in advance and the options to decline etc.
All the quote can ever do is provide an estimate of what the bulk of
those proceedures cost, assuming no unusual infection or physiology
or drug response etc etc etc. And so that quote cannot be legally
binding on the doctor in the sense that they arent allowed to charge
any more even if the shit does hit the fan during the proceedure etc.
Hardly anyone would be happy with the doctor just yawning when
the individual gets a serious infection as a result of the surgery and
says that since that wasnt included in the quote, you get to die etc.
>>> The MD should provide a quote in writing after asking the insurance
>>> company. If later on they renege (or so he says) he (the MD) eats it!
>> It cant work like that with major surgery. There is always the
>> possibility of a very serious infection or even once the individual
>> is opened up, the surgeon discovers that the individual has a much
>> more complicated physiology than was expected or even an early
>> cancer etc.
> You keep going on about this serious infection etc,
Because its the most common reason that it isnt feasible
to provide a quote that will never be exceeded.
You dont even get that with a car, there are always some
situations where you are given a quote for an engine repair and
when it turns out that the engine is much worse than it appeared
to be, you get a choice of abandoning repair, and paying for the
work already done, or paying more for a new engine etc.
> but in these cases in elective surgery the patient
> should have made his decisions in advance.
Not even possible to anticipate all that might happen, including
the surgeon having a heart attack while doing the surgery etc.
> In any event I'd settle for a quote for uneventful
> surgery until the MD's are whipped into line.
They cant ever be whipped into line, because its never
going to be possible to anticipate all complications.
>>> BTW that's how it works for my dentist.
>> No it doesnt. If you do develop a serious infection as the
>> result of say a crown, he does not fix that entirely at his cost.
> Huh? On about this serious infection again.
Because that is the most common cause of unexpected costs.
> If you develop some infection as a result of his setting of
> the crown the dentist should> be worried about lawsuits,
Only in the stupid american system. The individual may itself
have been where the MRSA infection came from and it is most
likely that the individual's compromised immune system is the
reason they ended up with an infection. Neither is something
that the dentist is legally responsible for in any viable legal system.
> not the minor cost of antibiotics.
The cost can be a hell of a lot more than minor with an antibiotic resistant infection.
>>> He says (say) he's got to put
>>> in a crown at [tooth number]; he sends all the paperwork and x-rays
>>> to the insurance company and they approve in advance in writing
>>> telling him how much he has to collect from me (the customer). He
>>> says he's never had a problem with the insurance company not paying
>>> later on and if they didn't he would consider that between him and
>>> them, nothing he could recharge to the customer.
>> But likely did have a problem when a patient got an infection etc.
> Oh, get off the infection kick.
Demand denied. That is the most common cause of unexpected costs.
> Only in abnormal circumstances would the dentist not know this in advance
> (e.g. an abscess) and treat it separately before putting in a crown.
Wrong.
> The insurance would also pay separately.
You havent established that there is any insurance.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: A Toyota makes you dumb; a bicycle makes you smart --Autobahn issue
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/3ebd4f06ad340d18?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 7:35 am
From: "TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit"
On Apr 19, 9:26 am, "Fred C. Dobbs" <fred.c.do...@earthlink.not>
wrote:
> On 4/18/2010 9:57 PM, TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit wrote:
>
> > On Apr 18, 11:09 pm, "Fred C. Dobbs"<fred.c.do...@earthlink.not>
> > wrote:
> >> On 4/18/2010 6:52 PM, TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit wrote:
>
> >>> Now we have come to [crap]
>
> >> You hate liberty. Why?
>
> > Liberty takes laws and regulations so the law of the jungle doesn't
> > prevail.
>
> False. Laws and regulations constrain liberty. You prefer laws and
> regulations to liberty across the board. Why?
Libertarians crave for the Autobahn for America. You must be fellow
travelers of the COMMUNIST PARTY faking to be patriots...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwL7W6gAx5E
You communists always hated Germany anyway. Notice the BIKE PATH on
the right. I made my point, comrades!
== 2 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 7:37 am
From: Charmin
On Apr 18, 4:19 pm, Forrest Hodge <f...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/18/2010 4:05 PM, TibetanMonkey, Originator of the Banana Kung-Fu wrote:
>
> > On Apr 18, 3:34 pm, Conscience<nobama@g v.com> wrote:
> >> On 2010-04-18 11:05:07 -0700, "TibetanMonkey,
> >> the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit"<nolionnoprob...@yahoo.com> said:
>
> >>>> <g> That reminds me of someone I knew years ago that said his driving
> >>>> a Saab 900 got him chicks.
>
> >>>> A Saab.
>
> >>> A Saab was for those who dared to be different.
>
> >> By that "reasoning", chicks would be flocking to those attending Star
> >> Trek conventions, wearing Klingon make-up.
>
> > Do you think Dutch girls who are proud of their bikes will wet their
> > panties when they see an American cowboy in SUV?
>
> > I think it's all a matter of perspective.
>
> I'm not sure why you have such a hard on for dumping on SUV's.
> Apparently you're a bicycle enthusiast, you get hit by anything other
> than another bike or a pedestrian, it's not really going matter what it
> is. Smart will plow over/through at 50 MPH, just as easy as a Tahoe will.
The reason is that he is not gainfully employed and has no resources
to do more than ride a bike.
== 3 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 8:06 am
From: "TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit"
On Apr 19, 10:47 am, First Post <LyingLefti...@reInvalid.org> wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 07:33:39 -0700 (PDT), "TibetanMonkey,
>
>
>
> the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit" <nolionnoprob...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On Apr 19, 9:26 am, "Fred C. Dobbs" <fred.c.do...@earthlink.not>
> >wrote:
> >> On 4/18/2010 9:57 PM, TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit wrote:
>
> >> > On Apr 18, 11:09 pm, "Fred C. Dobbs"<fred.c.do...@earthlink.not>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >> On 4/18/2010 6:52 PM, TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit wrote:
>
> >> >>> Now we have come to [crap]
>
> >> >> You hate liberty. Why?
>
> >> > Liberty takes laws and regulations so the law of the jungle doesn't
> >> > prevail.
>
> >> False. Laws and regulations constrain liberty. You prefer laws and
> >> regulations to liberty across the board. Why?
>
> >Libertarians crave for the Autobahn for America. You must be fellow
> >travelers of the COMMUNIST PARTY faking to be patriots...
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwL7W6gAx5E
>
> >You communists always hated Germany anyway. Notice the BIKE PATH on
> >the right. I made my point, comrades!
>
> Notice the carnage on the Autobahn "comrade"
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitmqUwtukc
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbdH-J6UoYI&feature=related
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI7vWUIgZiE&feature=related
>
> Liberal trolls, stupider than most.
Notice the carnage here, fellow traveler...
(or are you a lawyer?)
'It's No Accident: The Real Story Behind Senseless Death and Injury on
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David Townsend, Tia's father, gave me a copy of "It's No Accident"
this spring, nearly a year after my son Dominick was hit in a Seattle
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== 4 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 8:08 am
From: "TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit"
On Apr 19, 10:37 am, Charmin <char...@mailinator.com> wrote:
> On Apr 18, 4:19 pm, Forrest Hodge <f...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 4/18/2010 4:05 PM, TibetanMonkey, Originator of the Banana Kung-Fu wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 18, 3:34 pm, Conscience<nobama@g v.com> wrote:
> > >> On 2010-04-18 11:05:07 -0700, "TibetanMonkey,
> > >> the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit"<nolionnoprob...@yahoo.com> said:
>
> > >>>> <g> That reminds me of someone I knew years ago that said his driving
> > >>>> a Saab 900 got him chicks.
>
> > >>>> A Saab.
>
> > >>> A Saab was for those who dared to be different.
>
> > >> By that "reasoning", chicks would be flocking to those attending Star
> > >> Trek conventions, wearing Klingon make-up.
>
> > > Do you think Dutch girls who are proud of their bikes will wet their
> > > panties when they see an American cowboy in SUV?
>
> > > I think it's all a matter of perspective.
>
> > I'm not sure why you have such a hard on for dumping on SUV's.
> > Apparently you're a bicycle enthusiast, you get hit by anything other
> > than another bike or a pedestrian, it's not really going matter what it
> > is. Smart will plow over/through at 50 MPH, just as easy as a Tahoe will.
>
> The reason is that he is not gainfully employed and has no resources
> to do more than ride a bike.
In the Era of Globalization all you think about is MONEY. You believe
there's no idealism or place for bikes. Well, you are wrong across the
board: I drive a Lexus --older and boring-- but still a Lexus. Chew on
this.
== 5 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 8:18 am
From: "TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit"
On Apr 19, 11:09 am, "Fred C. Dobbs" <fred.c.do...@earthlink.not>
wrote:
> On 4/19/2010 8:04 AM, TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 19, 10:47 am, First Post<LyingLefti...@reInvalid.org> wrote:
> >> On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 07:33:39 -0700 (PDT), "TibetanMonkey,
>
> >> the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit"<nolionnoprob...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>> On Apr 19, 9:26 am, "Fred C. Dobbs"<fred.c.do...@earthlink.not>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> On 4/18/2010 9:57 PM, TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit wrote:
>
> >>>>> On Apr 18, 11:09 pm, "Fred C. Dobbs"<fred.c.do...@earthlink.not>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> On 4/18/2010 6:52 PM, TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit wrote:
>
> >>>>>>> Now we have come to [crap]
>
> >>>>>> You hate liberty. Why?
>
> >>>>> Liberty takes laws and regulations so the law of the jungle doesn't
> >>>>> prevail.
>
> >>>> False. Laws and regulations constrain liberty. You prefer laws and
> >>>> regulations to liberty across the board. Why?
>
> >>> Libertarians crave for the Autobahn for America. You must be fellow
> >>> travelers of the COMMUNIST PARTY faking to be patriots...
>
> >>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwL7W6gAx5E
>
> >>> You communists always hated Germany anyway. Notice the BIKE PATH on
> >>> the right. I made my point, comrades!
>
> >> Notice the carnage on the Autobahn "comrade"
>
> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitmqUwtukc
>
> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbdH-J6UoYI&feature=related
>
> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI7vWUIgZiE&feature=related
>
> >> Liberal trolls, stupider than most.
>
> > Notice the carnage here, fellow traveler...
>
> > (or are you a lawyer?)
>
> > 'It's No Accident: The Real Story Behind Senseless Death and Injury on
> > Our Roads'
>
> > David Townsend, Tia s father, gave me a copy of It s No Accident
> > this spring, nearly a year after my son Dominick was hit in a Seattle
> > crosswalk.
>
> You were talking about the autobahns, Comrade Shitbag, not American
> highways.
>
> Why do you hate liberty, comrade?
Oh c'mon, don't try playing mind games with the wise monkey...
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/skatesnow67/3_013.jpg
"This is the book that Federal, State and local bureaucracies, along
with the insurance companies and automobile manufacturers, don't want
you to read.... The book that dares to expose why America has failed
to save lives on the road, and how Germany has reduced the number of
people killed on its roadways by almost 70 percent over the last
thirty years, in spite of 100+ mph speeds on its Autobahn freeway
network."
http://americanautobahn.piratenews.org/
== 6 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 8:26 am
From: "TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit"
You think "they" want you to have safe roads? Look at their faces,
names, hints and clues... and be honest:
http://www.robertrubenstein.com/?gclid=CKad8-GFk6ECFRwtswodUiQNOQ
THE WISE TIBETAN MONKEY SAYS:
"The Vultures benefit from the Jungle"
== 7 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 8:33 am
From: "TibetanMonkey, Originator of the Banana Kung-Fu"
On Apr 19, 11:26 am, "Fred C. Dobbs" <fred.c.do...@earthlink.not>
wrote:
> On 4/19/2010 8:16 AM, TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 19, 11:09 am, "Fred C. Dobbs"<fred.c.do...@earthlink.not>
> > wrote:
> >> On 4/19/2010 8:04 AM, TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit wrote:
>
> >>> On Apr 19, 10:47 am, First Post<LyingLefti...@reInvalid.org> wrote:
> >>>> On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 07:33:39 -0700 (PDT), "TibetanMonkey,
>
> >>>> the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit"<nolionnoprob...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On Apr 19, 9:26 am, "Fred C. Dobbs"<fred.c.do...@earthlink.not>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> On 4/18/2010 9:57 PM, TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit wrote:
>
> >>>>>>> On Apr 18, 11:09 pm, "Fred C. Dobbs"<fred.c.do...@earthlink.not>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 4/18/2010 6:52 PM, TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>> Now we have come to [crap]
>
> >>>>>>>> You hate liberty. Why?
>
> >>>>>>> Liberty takes laws and regulations so the law of the jungle doesn't
> >>>>>>> prevail.
>
> >>>>>> False. Laws and regulations constrain liberty. You prefer laws and
> >>>>>> regulations to liberty across the board. Why?
>
> >>>>> Libertarians crave for the Autobahn for America. You must be fellow
> >>>>> travelers of the COMMUNIST PARTY faking to be patriots...
>
> >>>>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwL7W6gAx5E
>
> >>>>> You communists always hated Germany anyway. Notice the BIKE PATH on
> >>>>> the right. I made my point, comrades!
>
> >>>> Notice the carnage on the Autobahn "comrade"
>
> >>>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitmqUwtukc
>
> >>>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbdH-J6UoYI&feature=related
>
> >>>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI7vWUIgZiE&feature=related
>
> >>>> Liberal trolls, stupider than most.
>
> >>> Notice the carnage here, fellow traveler...
>
> >>> (or are you a lawyer?)
>
> >>> 'It's No Accident: The Real Story Behind Senseless Death and Injury on
> >>> Our Roads'
>
> >>> David Townsend, Tia s father, gave me a copy of It s No Accident
> >>> this spring, nearly a year after my son Dominick was hit in a Seattle
> >>> crosswalk.
>
> >> You were talking about the autobahns, Comrade Shitbag, not American
> >> highways.
>
> >> Why do you hate liberty, comrade?
>
> > Oh c'mon, don't try playing mind games with the wise monkey...
>
> You're not wise. You're an exceptionally untalented troll, Comrade Shitbag.
>
> Why do you hate liberty, comrade? Why do you hate liberty, yet remain
> in South Florida leeching off your productive superiors who successfully
> compete?
Ah yes, I may slow down the lawyers and other movers and shakers...
So what, I can't ride my beautiful bikes! The monkeys go around here
riding their crappy bikes on the sidewalks, and that's submissive
behavior, which is not acceptable to a Holy TibetanMonkey.
You know a saying of mine? "KISS MY HOLY ASS!"
== 8 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 10:08 am
From: "TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit"
On Apr 19, 12:52 pm, "charlesgrozny" <n5...@sprynet.com> wrote:
> "Hachiroku" <Tru...@e86.GTS> wrote in message
> > So, this time, don't go into a dealer looking for a sporty car. It'll
> > take them a few years to get the performance up after tweaking the
> > economy.
>
> > Oh, and expect the higher mileage cars to be made of cardboard.
>
> So they ARE bringing back the Trabant? <SEG>
I'd bring back the bicycle, then the scooter, then the Smart and
finally the horse for outings in the countryside where an SUV is
totally unnecessary.
== 9 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 11:48 am
From: "TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit"
I got this Email from a Toyota employee whose name will be held secret
for security purposes:
His Holiness the Tibetan Monkey:
We have all been following your wise comments with great interest. You
may think we are your enemies... but no! We too feel in a cage here,
so you are not alone. Anyway, we can't wait the time to leave the
office at 5 o'clock, let alone the opportunity to work for a company
where the little guy (the "little fish" as you call them) is king. So
we are waiting for the right time to quit and join the revolution.
Sayonara!
Keep us posted!
PS: Can we have scooters? How about Dahon foldables? We are dying to
get out of the Toyota cages and feel the cool breeze in the face.
== 10 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 11:55 am
From: SMS
On 19/04/10 11:48 AM, TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit wrote:
> PS: Can we have scooters? How about Dahon foldables? We are dying to
> get out of the Toyota cages and feel the cool breeze in the face.
At Interbike 2008, the Dahon booth had a Prius packed with Dahon folding
bicycles. Whoever guessed how many bicycles were inside the Prius won
their choice of bicycle.
== 11 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 11:57 am
From: "TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit"
On Apr 19, 2:35 pm, Hachiroku ハチロク <Tru...@e86.GTS> wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 11:52:16 -0500, charlesgrozny wrote:
> > So they ARE bringing back the Trabant? <SEG>
>
> > Charles Grozny
>
> (DON'T tell Tibetan Monkey! Because it has a plastic transverse leaf
> spring in the rear like a Corvette, he'll buy one and get pissed off when
> he can't keep up with Yamaha scooters on the road...)
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/products/modelhome/608/0/home.aspx
Yamaha scooters are ugly but good. Good to have fun without getting in
trouble with the police and the vigilantes sitting on the passing
lane.
Do Americans know what a PASSING LANE is?
== 12 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 2:18 pm
From: Forrest Hodge
On 4/18/2010 9:30 PM, TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit wrote:
> Look at this list of "car of the year" nominations and count the ones
> you can find in America...
>
> http://www.worldcarfans.com/109062320073/2010-european-car-of-the-year-nominations-announced/lowphotos#0
>
> Perhaps the Citroen Picasso is the most unique.
>
The only two cars that list that appeal to me in the least are the 370Z
and E-Class coupe. The majority of the those are tin-can-on-wheels FWD
econoboxes that the Europeans are basically legislated into buying due
to absurd fuel taxation.
== 13 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 2:40 pm
From: Charmin
On Apr 19, 10:08 am, "TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit"
<nolionnoprob...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Apr 19, 10:37 am, Charmin <char...@mailinator.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 18, 4:19 pm, Forrest Hodge <f...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On 4/18/2010 4:05 PM, TibetanMonkey, Originator of the Banana Kung-Fu wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 18, 3:34 pm, Conscience<nobama@g v.com> wrote:
> > > >> On 2010-04-18 11:05:07 -0700, "TibetanMonkey,
> > > >> the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit"<nolionnoprob...@yahoo.com> said:
>
> > > >>>> <g> That reminds me of someone I knew years ago that said his driving
> > > >>>> a Saab 900 got him chicks.
>
> > > >>>> A Saab.
>
> > > >>> A Saab was for those who dared to be different.
>
> > > >> By that "reasoning", chicks would be flocking to those attending Star
> > > >> Trek conventions, wearing Klingon make-up.
>
> > > > Do you think Dutch girls who are proud of their bikes will wet their
> > > > panties when they see an American cowboy in SUV?
>
> > > > I think it's all a matter of perspective.
>
> > > I'm not sure why you have such a hard on for dumping on SUV's.
> > > Apparently you're a bicycle enthusiast, you get hit by anything other
> > > than another bike or a pedestrian, it's not really going matter what it
> > > is. Smart will plow over/through at 50 MPH, just as easy as a Tahoe will.
>
> > The reason is that he is not gainfully employed and has no resources
> > to do more than ride a bike.
>
> In the Era of Globalization all you think about is MONEY. You believe
> there's no idealism or place for bikes. Well, you are wrong across the
> board: I drive a Lexus --older and boring-- but still a Lexus. Chew on
> this.
Maybe so, but it must be your mom's Lexus or she passed it on to help
you evacuate her basement.
You confirmed the accuracy of my statement. Thanks.
== 14 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 3:37 pm
From: "TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit"
On Apr 19, 2:18 pm, Forrest Hodge <f...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/18/2010 9:30 PM, TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit wrote:> Look at this list of "car of the year" nominations and count the ones
> > you can find in America...
>
> >http://www.worldcarfans.com/109062320073/2010-european-car-of-the-yea...
>
> > Perhaps the Citroen Picasso is the most unique.
>
> The only two cars that list that appeal to me in the least are the 370Z
> and E-Class coupe. The majority of the those are tin-can-on-wheels FWD
> econoboxes that the Europeans are basically legislated into buying due
> to absurd fuel taxation.
I'm assuming you are an American, right? Because the Europeans would
think you are driven into ridiculous SUVs by your also ridiculous
gasoline prices.
The country is broke and you can't raise the gasoline taxes, at least
to pay for the last wars?
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Do Americans know what a PASSING LANE is?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/0d691215837945ab?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 12:22 pm
From: "TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit"
Imagine the solution to all those speed traps and vigilantes sitting
on the passing lane is so simple and yet so much fun...
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/products/modelhome/608/0/home.aspx
It's ugly but it seems pretty high tech, fuel injection and all, huh?
Who could have said you could have fun in America! One thing is for
sure: Americans will never know what a PASSING LANE is.
----------------------------------------------------------------
THE WISE TIBETAN MONKEY SAYS
"The jungle has many paths and when one closes another one opens"
http://webspawner.com/users/BANANAREVOLUTION
== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 3:51 pm
From: "TibetanMonkey, the-Monkey-with-the-Bag-of-Shit"
On Apr 19, 3:01 pm, "charlesgrozny" <n5...@sprynet.com> wrote:
> The passing lane, isn't that the one on the right of the solid white line?
> <G>
>
> Charles Grozny
This is a question for the driving test in the future...
A PASSING LANE IS...
__ A passing lane is the lane on a multi-lane highway or motorway
closest to the center of the road (the central reservation).
__ An imaginary lane through which the ball could be passed from a
player with the ball to another offensive player.
__ The area between two offensive players where a pass can be made.
__ The area between the ball carrier and the intended receiver of the
ball.
__ All of the above.
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