Frugal Living: Mar 21, 2011

Monday, March 21, 2011

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 18 new messages in 8 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Nuclear Crisis in Japan
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/4e19044edc193817?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 19 2011 11:47 pm
From: The Real Bev

On 03/19/11 18:35, HeyBub wrote:

> The Real Bev wrote:
>> On 03/19/11 10:54, HeyBub wrote:
>>
>>> Aside from the fact than numerous pieces of a 757 were found inside
>>> the Pentagon, if it was not a plane that hit the building, what does
>>> your theory say regarding the present whereabouts of American
>>> Airlines flight 77 and its 84 souls on board?
>>>
>>> The only plausible explanations are 1) It was whisked into the ether
>>> by space aliens, or 2) Miraculously taken up to heaven by God and
>>> the angles (much like Ezekiel).
>>
>> You didn't watch 'Lost', did you?
>
> I tried, but it weirded me out too much.

I watched the whole thing. I've NEVER wanted to slap a writer as much
as I did after the last episode!

--
Cheers,
Bev
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
This is Usenet. We *are* the trained body for dealing
with psychotics. -- A. Dingley

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 20 2011 7:36 am
From: George

On 3/19/2011 9:25 AM, Smitty Two wrote:
> In article
> <318d7936-08cf-4752-8479-6582908879ca@r13g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,
> "trader4@optonline.net"<trader4@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>> On Mar 18, 1:02 pm, Smitty Two<prestwh...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> In article
>>> <f727d4fa-c428-41d6-9f42-63b09c38c...@d26g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
>>>
>>> "trad...@optonline.net"<trad...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>>> Yeah, no need for an investiagtion to figure out what happened
>>>
>>> Wasn't needed for 9/11, so shouldn't be necessary for this. Just clean
>>> up the debris and haul it off to the dump.
>>
>> Are you now claiming there was no investigation of 9/11? Sounds
>> like you're a truther, which shows where you're coming from. Of
>> course
>> the real truth is investigators had full access to the building
>> debris
>> prior to it being hauled away. Some of it is still in their
>> possession.
>
> I've never made any secret of my contempt for the official 9/11 story.
> Lots of crackpots in my camp, and a lot of non-crackpots too. Every
> intelligent open-minded person knows that it was an inside job. No plane
> fragments found at the Pentagon, no reason for building 7 to collapse, 1
> and 2 came down as carbon copies of demo'd buildings, Bush on video
> saying he saw the planes hit the buildings *before* those videos had
> been broadcast, broadcast reports of collapses before they actually
> happened, no military interception of commercial airliners flying off
> course for hours, ad infinitum.
>
> But g'head, you just keep waving the american flag.

It may be just me but I would think an "intelligent open minded" person
would question the various very weak at best conspiracy theories and not
just accept them as fact.

For example you seem to not have considered how quickly this all
happened. It was way less than an hour from the time the peace loving
muslims hijacked the airplanes until they hit the towers. You also
didn't consider that Clinton ordered numerous base closings. There were
no fighters in the air 24x7 over Manhattan. The nearest air base at that
time with fighters was a National Guard base in Massachusetts that
wasn't sitting there on ready alert.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 20 2011 10:13 am
From: gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston)

For a bit of perspective and proportion, check out this chart:

http://www.xkcd.com/radiation/

For endless amusement, check out the xkcd comic.

http://www.xkcd.com

(Contains adult material, but offers a "clean" feed as well.)

Gary

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Damn Pedestrians!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/a4486f5ab89c33d5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 20 2011 6:20 am
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, originator of the Stop the Bullshit
Campaign"

On Mar 20, 3:45 am, Foxtrot <foxt...@null.com> wrote:

> How do you carry bags of groceries
> home on your bike?

Panniers or trailer.

> How do you take your family on vacations?

Rent a car, and keep the change. The bike will give you good looks and
flatten that belly. You really don't need to drive everywhere.

> You said people driving cars are brats. Do you realize you're
> insulting nearly all Americans?

Yes! They are driven by advertising and fear of cycling.

In your world there's only black and white? How about having a car for
longer distances and a bike to do errands in your community?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: BAD SEXY SEEMS
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/4e2a1b1bdaec9d59?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 20 2011 7:48 am
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Bad Housekeeper needs tips.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/070aed9aa5fbdc1e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 20 2011 9:02 am
From: gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston)

In article <im3cmo$bc6$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
Lou <lpogoda@hotmail.com> wrote:

>"Bob F" <bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:im2nr3$19q$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>> Lou wrote:
>> > It's hard to beat
>> > ammonia, but use that only if you have good ventilation. NEVER mix
>> > ammonia with a chlorine-containing product, the combination can give
>> > off mustard gas with possibly fatal results.

>> The combination gives off chlorine gas, not mustard gas.

>Beats me. I found a few sites on the web that say the combination produces
>mustard gas, sites that say it produces chlorine gas, sites that say it does
>not produce mustard or chlorine gas but does produce chloramine gas.
>Whatever the result, they all say the combination can be deadly.

IIRC, ammonia + bleach (sodium hypochloride) == chloramine gas, which is
very poisonous (a high school classmate cleared a grocery store he
worked at when cleaning the stockroom and mixing the two).

Mustard gas, the bane of WW1, is straight chlorine gas. It was nicknamed
mustard gas due to its' yellow color, and is also very poisonous.

I'm not a chemist, though...

(Burning ping-pong balls also give off poisonous gasses.)

Gary

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 20 2011 12:10 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Gary Heston wrote
> Lou <lpogoda@hotmail.com> wrote
>> Bob F <bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Lou wrote

>>>> It's hard to beat> ammonia, but use that only if you have good
>>>> ventilation. NEVER mix ammonia with a chlorine-containing product,
>>>> the combination can give off mustard gas with possibly fatal results.

>>> The combination gives off chlorine gas, not mustard gas.

>> Beats me. I found a few sites on the web that say the combination
>> produces mustard gas, sites that say it produces chlorine gas, sites
>> that say it does not produce mustard or chlorine gas but does
>> produce chloramine gas. Whatever the result, they all say the
>> combination can be deadly.

> IIRC, ammonia + bleach (sodium hypochloride) == chloramine gas,

Utterly mangled. Try
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/classic/A795611

> which is very poisonous (a high school classmate cleared a grocery
> store he worked at when cleaning the stockroom and mixing the two).

Not because of chloramine gas. Chloramine isnt even a gas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloramine

> Mustard gas, the bane of WW1, is straight chlorine gas.

Nope.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustard_gas

> It was nicknamed mustard gas due to its' yellow color,

Chlorine is more green than yellow
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine

> and is also very poisonous.

> I'm not a chemist, though...

Thats obvious.

> (Burning ping-pong balls also give off poisonous gasses.)

Depends on what sort of plastic its made of and its not very poisonous even with the worst.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 20 2011 1:34 pm
From: The Real Bev

On 03/20/11 09:02, Gary Heston wrote:

> Lou<lpogoda@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>"Bob F"<bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote :
>>> Lou wrote:
>>> > It's hard to beat
>>> > ammonia, but use that only if you have good ventilation. NEVER mix
>>> > ammonia with a chlorine-containing product, the combination can give
>>> > off mustard gas with possibly fatal results.
>
>>> The combination gives off chlorine gas, not mustard gas.
>
>>Beats me. I found a few sites on the web that say the combination produces
>>mustard gas, sites that say it produces chlorine gas, sites that say it does
>>not produce mustard or chlorine gas but does produce chloramine gas.
>>Whatever the result, they all say the combination can be deadly.
>
> IIRC, ammonia + bleach (sodium hypochloride) == chloramine gas, which is
> very poisonous (a high school classmate cleared a grocery store he
> worked at when cleaning the stockroom and mixing the two).

I overheard one cleaning lady tell her friend about her experience
mixing the two -- fortunately the Lady of the House was home and pulled
her to safety.

> Mustard gas, the bane of WW1, is straight chlorine gas. It was nicknamed
> mustard gas due to its' yellow color, and is also very poisonous.
>
> I'm not a chemist, though...
>
> (Burning ping-pong balls also give off poisonous gasses.)

So do some people...

Made corned beef and cabbage today. My mom's was better.

--
Cheers, Bev
=================================================================
"In all recorded history there has not been one economist who has
had to worry about where the next meal would come from."
-- Peter S. Drucker, who invented management

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Lessons from Japan: The Politics of Limit
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/09f05aae5b18c1ee?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 20 2011 9:54 am
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, originator of the Stop the Bullshit
Campaign"

We can hardly accuse Japan for the same wasteful ways as America, but
I still saw thousands of little cars being swept away by the Tsunami.
They have built bullet trains and have an effective public
transportation system as well, but still the MIGHTY BICYCLE seem to be
missing from the politics of limit.

"It is the greedy profit-seekers, who minimise these risks, whether in
the Gulf of Mexico or Fukushima...

These predatory forces are made more formidable because they have
cajoled most politicians into complicity...

Such a challenge must include the repudiation of a neoliberal
worldview, insisting without compromise on an economics based on needs
and people rather than on profit margins and capital efficiency."

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/03/201131691422585897.html

***

Contrast though the high-tech approach of the bullet train with that
assigned to the HUMBLE BIKE...

"I just returned from a trip to Japan... I found myself riding
sidewalks and riding slowly."

http://sites.google.com/site/urbanbicycles/japan

In other words, CAPITALISM IS INCLINED TO WASTE INSTEAD OF EFFICIENCY.
It's a beast --the Hungry Lion-- that must be tamed BEFORE we are
devoured.

WARNING: RIDING ON SIDEWALK IS DANGEROUS TO YOURSELF AND OTHERS --AND
IT'S PAINFULLY SLOW.

----------------------------------------------------

http://webspawner.com/users/BANANAREVOLUTION

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 20 2011 3:49 pm
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, originator of the Stop the Bullshit
Campaign"

On Mar 20, 12:52 pm, "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, aka Comandante
Banana" <nolionnoprob...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> http://sites.google.com/site/urbanbicycles/japan
>
> In other words, CAPITALISM IS INCLINED TO WASTE INSTEAD OF EFFICIENCY.
> It's a beast --the Hungry Lion-- that must be tamed BEFORE we are
> devoured.
>
> WARNING: RIDING ON SIDEWALK IS DANGEROUS TO YOURSELF AND OTHERS --AND
> IT'S PAINFULLY SLOW.

It was bound to happen (at least on paper):

April 2008
Anyone who has spent more than a week in Japan has probably been
surprised at the lack of regard that cyclists here often show both for
their own safety and for the safety of others. It is not uncommon to
see housewives cycling with one child on a seat in front and one
behind, or salarymen riding one-handed in order to hold an
umbrella(even on windy days!), or even high school students steering
with one hand while sending text messages on their mobile phones with
the other. Unsurprisingly this type of irresponsible behaviour has led
to a dramatic increase in the number of accidents involving bicycles,
with the result that the National Police Agency has, on paper at
least, begun to clamp down on dangerous cyclists.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: If every roof was a solar panel
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/dd0a5af9cc4337f6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 20 2011 12:39 pm
From: Karen Silkwood

In article <im3bjn$6qr$2@news.eternal-september.org>,
The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 03/18/11 19:41, Nick Naim wrote:
>
> > "Karen Silkwood"<georgeswk@toast.net> wrote in message
> > news:georgeswk-0419F7.18574518032011@news.toast.net...
> >> We wouldn't need nuke power plants or Wars for Oil.
> >> Wouldn't that be a better world? New research could make the panels
> >> cheap. They could heat water or air, even make electricity.
> >> and Karen would still be with us.
> >> --
> >> Karma, What a concept!
> > Wars would be for still
>
> Why has nobody mentioned the outgassing problem?

One person's "problem" is another's opportunity .
Some see problems , I only see solutions.
--
Karma, What a concept!

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 20 2011 4:17 pm
From: AndyS

On Mar 18, 8:57 pm, Karen Silkwood <george...@toast.net> wrote:
> We wouldn't need nuke power plants or Wars for Oil.
> Wouldn't that be a better world? New research could make the panels
> cheap. They could heat water or air, even make electricity.
> and Karen would still be with us.
> --
> Karma, What a concept!

Andy comments:

Well, lets look at some numbers:

A "typical " house has about 5000 sq ft of roof, which is
185 sq meters.

Sunlight, at 90degrees, puts about 1000 watts per sq meter on
the earth during "full sun". (That is about 120 pk w/sqm from a
solar panel at 12% efficiency)

Dallas, for instance, has an average of 5.5 hours of "full sun" per
day.
(That's averaging over an entire day, 24 hrs, and then converting
that to direct, unblocked sunlight hours)

That means a roof could intercept 185 X1000X5.5 = 1000 kwh per day.

The roof cannot be aimed. As the sun moves, the output goes down
Use about 30% for non-trackable efficiency.

Solar Cells have theoretical max efficiency of 17%. Typically, they
run around 12%, in a practical system.

Storage cells are used to store and then redistribute the energy.
Efficiency
varies, but lets say a 75% efficiency could be obtained, to have a
realistic
number

There's other stuff, but so far our conversion efficiency is
.30 x .17 x .75 = 4% (approx)

That means the 1000kwh of sunlight per day from a 5000 sq ft
roof could result in about 40 kwh of power available for use.

That's 1200 kwh per month. Probably about half what you or I use
now, but not unrealistic to tighten our belts and be comfortable
with...

Now, what does it cost.

185 sq meters x 120 = 22000 peak watts
Presently , solar panels are around $5 per peak watt.
which means $111,000 dollars for the panels to cover a
5000 sq ft roof.

Plus installation --- probably 25K
Plus the storage battery installation --- est around $10,000
Plus the electric inverters to convert the stored energy est around
$5000

OK, we have a ball park number of $151,000 to accomplish the task.

The panels will last about 20 years, so that's $72,000 per year....

My present electric bill, to generate twice that amount of power,
is about $2000 per year......

WoW !!!! Doesn't look very practical with today's technology...

However, I encourage you to learn enough about the systems to do
the cost analysis for yourself. You'll probably use different
numbers,
but not radically so.

It only looks practical if you are thinking "free sunlight"....

That's really like thinking "free gasoline" and then having to
pay for a car to use it.....

Andy in Eureka, Texas registered P E

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 20 2011 6:33 pm
From: Karen Silkwood

In article
<557ba508-3ea1-4a42-ae73-f3ad4370d060@k10g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
AndyS <jungleandy1@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Doesn't look very practical with today's technology...

that's my point. More research, more breakthroughs. The Consumers must
drive this baby. Imagine \\
It's amazing what you can do if you put your mind to it.
--
Karma, What a concept!

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 20 2011 6:10 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Karen Silkwood wrote
> AndyS <jungleandy1@hotmail.com> wrote

>> Doesn't look very practical with today's technology...

> that's my point.

Its a dud point.

> More research, more breakthroughs.

We've been researching that area for 50 years now.

> The Consumers must drive this baby.

Fantasy. What might happen is that chinese manufacture drives the cost down significantly.

> Imagine \\

> It's amazing what you can do if you put your mind to it.

No with something thats been extensively researched for 50 years now.

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 20 2011 9:51 pm
From: "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds"

In article <8unms1Fo61U1@mid.individual.net>,
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

reams of your pig ignorant mindless **** flushed where it belong

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 20 2011 9:53 pm
From: J Burns

On 3/20/11 7:17 PM, AndyS wrote:

> Andy comments:
>
> Well, lets look at some numbers:

About a year ago, the cost dropped below $1 per watt. Here's an example:
http://www.sunelec.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=47&products_id=1504

A pallet of 50 would cover 214 square meters, produce 2.3kW peak, and
cost $2254. Tax deductions and utility rebates may cover some of that.

http://dallas-solar-panels.com/
According to this page, annual production in Dallas (day and night,
winter and summer, rain and shine) averages 13% of peak. That would be
2583kWh per year. At 15 cents per kWh, that could cut 387.45 off your
bill if you always use it as you produce it or if in your state it's
legal to let your excess run the meter backward. Counting the cost of
the panels only and excluding rebates and deductions, that would be a
six-year payback.

If you aren't using storage batteries and it's not legal to run your
meter backwards, then the electric company will pay you something less
than retail for electricity you sell them; so your payback would be
longer than 6 years but could be much less than 6 years if you count
rebates and deductions.

In that case, it might pay to have some battery storage, to save some of
the excess from sunny hours instead of selling it to the utility.
Besides, a little storage could let you run essentials during power outages.

Power-company peaks come from A/C. Presumably, it's in their interest
to have customers with solar panels. Peak A/C coincides with peak sun,
so their peak capacity can be smaller. If I had an A/C designed to run
from solar panels of my capacity, I could run it straight from my
panels: no fear of blackouts or outages with the sun beating down.

I'm ignoring other costs such as an inverter. (For more than 10 years,
my BIL has had a windmill, inverter, and batteries to run his household,
shop, and electric car; the utility is his backup.)

>
> That's 1200 kwh per month. Probably about half what you or I use
> now, but not unrealistic to tighten our belts and be comfortable
> with...

I believe the US household average these days is 1000kWh a month. Mine
is about 325, so $2254 worth of panels would produce most of what I use
in a year. My refrigerator is more than 20 years old. If I bought a
modern one, the annual production of those panels could exceed my annual
consumption.

Cars, refrigeration, A/C, and electronics are far more efficient than
they were in the 1970s, but per capita energy use is about the same. I
guess we're greater spendthrifts than we were then, when it comes to
energy. Maybe I should skip the solar panels and just get a new
refrigerator.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Outrageous (operator assisted) phone charges
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/e2bf0b6ebd705505?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 20 2011 11:48 am
From: Susan Bugher

Bill Bowden wrote:

> Yes, the convenience store next door sells several types of long
> distance calling cards. The gal that works there recommended a $2 card
> she uses to call Viet Nam. And my brother uses the internet and a web
> cam to talk to relatives in other states. I knew these cheaper
> services were available, but I didn't have time to research it. All I
> wanted to do was wish my niece a happy birthday and figured it
> wouldn't cost much to use the operator. I would have been happy with a
> 3 or 4 dollar charge, but I had no idea the rates would be almost $3 a
> minute.

You have my sympathy. That was a rather expensive lesson but I expect it
will stick.

Susan

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Monday, March 21, 2011

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 18 new messages in 8 topics - digest