Frugal Living: Oct 22, 2008

Wednesday, October 22, 2008

23 new messages in 9 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: I think I'm throwing in the towel - house reappraisal
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e3e20997903e48b2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Oct 21 2008 10:53 pm
From: "Bob F"

"OhioGuy" <none@none.net> wrote in message news:gdlm40$4ns$1@aioe.org...
> I've got a meeting tomorrow about the 2008 reappraisal of our house for tax
> purposes. So many houses are vacant that our city has jacked up the values
> for those of us who are actually paying taxes to try to make up the
> difference.
>
> The thing is, the city simply used a sample of similar properties that
> people overpaid for to determine the values of OUR properties. They farmed
> this out to a third party company which simply drove by and took a picture of
> the outside of our house, then used a computer program to determine that the
> true value of our house should be 45% higher than the price we paid for it 5
> years ago.
>
> This is despite the fact that average sale prices for our zip have DECLINED
> 19.4% over the past year. (according to trulia.com, July-Sept 2007 vs
> July-Sept 2008) So somehow they are saying the value went up enough over the
> past 4 years to still be up 45% after a 19.4% drop this year. That's
> amazing - considering that Ohio never had a housing bubble, and houses have
> been fairly stable.
>
> Granted, we didn't overpay for our place. We got it at fair market value,
> and paid the asking price of $46,000 for our 2,500 square foot duplex. (6
> bedrooms, 2 bathrooms) It sounds low compared to many parts of the country,
> but it LOOKED bad. It had water damage to the drywall, and lots of things
> needed painted and spackled, but everything was structurally solid.
>
> Anyway, guess who is hearing my complaint? Yes, it is the third party
> company who the city farmed the appraisal out to. I'm SURE they will be quite
> fair and unbiased in hearing me.
>
> Of course, I've looked at the taxes being paid by many of my neighbors, as
> well as the prices paid for their homes. Most of them evidently either
> overpaid, or are paying higher taxes than I am. Evidently they never
> successfully complained about the taxes when given the opportunity.
>
> My chances look pretty bleak. When I saw duplex after duplex in the area
> with even higher taxes than ours, and sales prices higher than ours, I began
> doubting whether I'd be able to make any traction to my argument. I also
> decided not to spend the $600 on having a new appraisal done, since it looked
> like it would probably just be money down the drain.
>
> The only thing I can really argue at this point is that the sales prices of
> other homes in the area are rather general and meaningless when compared to
> the actual sales price of THIS property back in October 2003. I can argue
> that the current appraisal value of THIS property should be based on the SALES
> PRICE of THIS property, adjusted for inflation and the current housing market.
>
> Think I'll get anywhere with that one tomorrow?
>
>
> Sure, I do have 3 or 4 similar duplexes I've found in the area that sold for
> between $25K and $45K in the past 5 years. However, all I can do with that is
> highlight how they simply jacked the appraised values up a lot on those
> properties as well.
>
> Anyone have any suggestions for me to try tomorrow?

I think it is generally refered to as an assessment rather than an appraisal.

What I did was to call the assessors office and have them send me what they
consider "comps". Then I searched the counties database for recent sales near
Jan 1 of this year, which is the time the assessment is for. I found a few
properties which were as similar as I could find to my house and lot, then
looked at them and noted how they were better than mine, and how mine was
obviously worth less (old kitchen and bath, fir floors instead of hardwood, no
view, etc), and proposed a value for mine based on those values. I got
significant reductions for both my house and my rental.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 22 2008 12:22 pm
From: phil scott

On Oct 21, 3:46 pm, OhioGuy <n...@none.net> wrote:
> I've got a meeting tomorrow about the 2008 reappraisal of our house
> for tax purposes. So many houses are vacant that our city has jacked up
> the values for those of us who are actually paying taxes to try to make
> up the difference.
>
> The thing is, the city simply used a sample of similar properties
> that people overpaid for to determine the values of OUR properties.
> They farmed this out to a third party company which simply drove by and
> took a picture of the outside of our house, then used a computer program
> to determine that the true value of our house should be 45% higher than
> the price we paid for it 5 years ago.
>
> This is despite the fact that average sale prices for our zip have
> DECLINED 19.4% over the past year. (according to trulia.com, July-Sept
> 2007 vs July-Sept 2008) So somehow they are saying the value went up
> enough over the past 4 years to still be up 45% after a 19.4% drop this
> year. That's amazing - considering that Ohio never had a housing
> bubble, and houses have been fairly stable.
>
> Granted, we didn't overpay for our place. We got it at fair market
> value, and paid the asking price of $46,000 for our 2,500 square foot
> duplex. (6 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms) It sounds low compared to many parts
> of the country, but it LOOKED bad. It had water damage to the drywall,
> and lots of things needed painted and spackled, but everything was
> structurally solid.
>
> Anyway, guess who is hearing my complaint? Yes, it is the third
> party company who the city farmed the appraisal out to. I'm SURE they
> will be quite fair and unbiased in hearing me.
>
> Of course, I've looked at the taxes being paid by many of my
> neighbors, as well as the prices paid for their homes. Most of them
> evidently either overpaid, or are paying higher taxes than I am.
> Evidently they never successfully complained about the taxes when given
> the opportunity.
>
> My chances look pretty bleak. When I saw duplex after duplex in the
> area with even higher taxes than ours, and sales prices higher than
> ours, I began doubting whether I'd be able to make any traction to my
> argument. I also decided not to spend the $600 on having a new
> appraisal done, since it looked like it would probably just be money
> down the drain.
>
> The only thing I can really argue at this point is that the sales
> prices of other homes in the area are rather general and meaningless
> when compared to the actual sales price of THIS property back in October
> 2003. I can argue that the current appraisal value of THIS property
> should be based on the SALES PRICE of THIS property, adjusted for
> inflation and the current housing market.
>
> Think I'll get anywhere with that one tomorrow?
>
> Sure, I do have 3 or 4 similar duplexes I've found in the area that
> sold for between $25K and $45K in the past 5 years. However, all I can
> do with that is highlight how they simply jacked the appraised values up
> a lot on those properties as well.
>
> Anyone have any suggestions for me to try tomorrow?

be glad you are in a low cost housing area. here in the SF bay area
your house would probably we worth at least 250k.. maybe 500k, and you
would have lost100k on it in the last year... and your ppty tax would
be 5,000 or more a year.

it will get worse fast.... govt bloat, combined with work being sent
to china has decimated the working class and that tax base... the only
thing cities can do is go after those it has over a barrel... home
owners... they can make you pay or go live under a bridge.... as they
pay their police 150k a year in retirement (40% of some city's
budgets, plus another 30 or 40% for the current wages...includes
police and fire)

this load of crap wont float much longer..... if i were in your
situation I might picket city hall wiith notice that Im selling and
moving out of the county....poooof, one more tax payer and person
doing business in the town, gone.

Phil scott

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 22 2008 12:29 pm
From: phil scott

On Oct 21, 10:53 pm, "Bob F" <bobnos...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "OhioGuy" <n...@none.net> wrote in messagenews:gdlm40$4ns$1@aioe.org...
> > I've got a meeting tomorrow about the 2008 reappraisal of our house for tax
> > purposes. So many houses are vacant that our city has jacked up the values
> > for those of us who are actually paying taxes to try to make up the
> > difference.
>
> > The thing is, the city simply used a sample of similar properties that
> > people overpaid for to determine the values of OUR properties. They farmed
> > this out to a third party company which simply drove by and took a picture of
> > the outside of our house, then used a computer program to determine that the
> > true value of our house should be 45% higher than the price we paid for it 5
> > years ago.
>
> > This is despite the fact that average sale prices for our zip have DECLINED
> > 19.4% over the past year. (according to trulia.com, July-Sept 2007 vs
> > July-Sept 2008) So somehow they are saying the value went up enough over the
> > past 4 years to still be up 45% after a 19.4% drop this year. That's
> > amazing - considering that Ohio never had a housing bubble, and houses have
> > been fairly stable.
>
> > Granted, we didn't overpay for our place. We got it at fair market value,
> > and paid the asking price of $46,000 for our 2,500 square foot duplex. (6
> > bedrooms, 2 bathrooms) It sounds low compared to many parts of the country,
> > but it LOOKED bad. It had water damage to the drywall, and lots of things
> > needed painted and spackled, but everything was structurally solid.
>
> > Anyway, guess who is hearing my complaint? Yes, it is the third party
> > company who the city farmed the appraisal out to. I'm SURE they will be quite
> > fair and unbiased in hearing me.
>
> > Of course, I've looked at the taxes being paid by many of my neighbors, as
> > well as the prices paid for their homes. Most of them evidently either
> > overpaid, or are paying higher taxes than I am. Evidently they never
> > successfully complained about the taxes when given the opportunity.
>
> > My chances look pretty bleak. When I saw duplex after duplex in the area
> > with even higher taxes than ours, and sales prices higher than ours, I began
> > doubting whether I'd be able to make any traction to my argument. I also
> > decided not to spend the $600 on having a new appraisal done, since it looked
> > like it would probably just be money down the drain.
>
> > The only thing I can really argue at this point is that the sales prices of
> > other homes in the area are rather general and meaningless when compared to
> > the actual sales price of THIS property back in October 2003. I can argue
> > that the current appraisal value of THIS property should be based on the SALES
> > PRICE of THIS property, adjusted for inflation and the current housing market.
>
> > Think I'll get anywhere with that one tomorrow?
>
> > Sure, I do have 3 or 4 similar duplexes I've found in the area that sold for
> > between $25K and $45K in the past 5 years. However, all I can do with that is
> > highlight how they simply jacked the appraised values up a lot on those
> > properties as well.
>
> > Anyone have any suggestions for me to try tomorrow?
>
> I think it is generally refered to as an assessment rather than an appraisal.
>
> What I did was to call the assessors office and have them send me what they
> consider "comps". Then I searched the counties database for recent sales near
> Jan 1 of this year, which is the time the assessment is for. I found a few
> properties which were as similar as I could find to my house and lot, then
> looked at them and noted how they were better than mine, and how mine was
> obviously worth less (old kitchen and bath, fir floors instead of hardwood, no
> view, etc), and proposed a value for mine based on those values. I got
> significant reductions for both my house and my rental.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

on the view issue.... in New hampshire starting a couple of years ago
is the 'view tax factor'... one guys taxes went from $500 a year to
$3500.. because he had a killer view... so he got a 'view assessement
factor of 7'

that is 7x the assessment if it had no view.

this mess wont stop until bloated govt has eaten the tax payers alive
and the tax base collapses entirely.... meantime cops are retiring at
100,000 to 1150,000 a year or more...

Phil scott

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 22 2008 1:54 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

phil scott <phil@philscott.net> wrote:
> On Oct 21, 3:46 pm, OhioGuy <n...@none.net> wrote:
>> I've got a meeting tomorrow about the 2008 reappraisal of our house
>> for tax purposes. So many houses are vacant that our city has jacked
>> up the values for those of us who are actually paying taxes to try
>> to make up the difference.
>>
>> The thing is, the city simply used a sample of similar properties
>> that people overpaid for to determine the values of OUR properties.
>> They farmed this out to a third party company which simply drove by
>> and took a picture of the outside of our house, then used a computer
>> program to determine that the true value of our house should be 45%
>> higher than the price we paid for it 5 years ago.
>>
>> This is despite the fact that average sale prices for our zip have
>> DECLINED 19.4% over the past year. (according to trulia.com,
>> July-Sept 2007 vs July-Sept 2008) So somehow they are saying the
>> value went up enough over the past 4 years to still be up 45% after
>> a 19.4% drop this year. That's amazing - considering that Ohio never
>> had a housing bubble, and houses have been fairly stable.
>>
>> Granted, we didn't overpay for our place. We got it at fair market
>> value, and paid the asking price of $46,000 for our 2,500 square foot
>> duplex. (6 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms) It sounds low compared to many
>> parts of the country, but it LOOKED bad. It had water damage to the
>> drywall, and lots of things needed painted and spackled, but
>> everything was structurally solid.
>>
>> Anyway, guess who is hearing my complaint? Yes, it is the third
>> party company who the city farmed the appraisal out to. I'm SURE they
>> will be quite fair and unbiased in hearing me.
>>
>> Of course, I've looked at the taxes being paid by many of my
>> neighbors, as well as the prices paid for their homes. Most of them
>> evidently either overpaid, or are paying higher taxes than I am.
>> Evidently they never successfully complained about the taxes when
>> given the opportunity.
>>
>> My chances look pretty bleak. When I saw duplex after duplex in the
>> area with even higher taxes than ours, and sales prices higher than
>> ours, I began doubting whether I'd be able to make any traction to my
>> argument. I also decided not to spend the $600 on having a new
>> appraisal done, since it looked like it would probably just be money
>> down the drain.
>>
>> The only thing I can really argue at this point is that the sales
>> prices of other homes in the area are rather general and meaningless
>> when compared to the actual sales price of THIS property back in
>> October 2003. I can argue that the current appraisal value of THIS
>> property should be based on the SALES PRICE of THIS property,
>> adjusted for inflation and the current housing market.
>>
>> Think I'll get anywhere with that one tomorrow?
>>
>> Sure, I do have 3 or 4 similar duplexes I've found in the area that
>> sold for between $25K and $45K in the past 5 years. However, all I
>> can do with that is highlight how they simply jacked the appraised
>> values up a lot on those properties as well.
>>
>> Anyone have any suggestions for me to try tomorrow?
>
> be glad you are in a low cost housing area. here in the SF bay area
> your house would probably we worth at least 250k.. maybe 500k, and you
> would have lost100k on it in the last year... and your ppty tax would
> be 5,000 or more a year.
>
> it will get worse fast.... govt bloat, combined with work being sent
> to china has decimated the working class and that tax base... the only
> thing cities can do is go after those it has over a barrel... home
> owners... they can make you pay or go live under a bridge.... as they
> pay their police 150k a year in retirement (40% of some city's
> budgets, plus another 30 or 40% for the current wages...includes
> police and fire)
>
>
> this load of crap wont float much longer..... if i were in your
> situation I might picket city hall wiith notice that Im selling and
> moving out of the county....poooof, one more tax payer and person
> doing business in the town, gone.

Bet that would have the city hall suits pouring from their windows like lemmings as soon as they saw the notice.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Do You Know Where To Get A Safe Payday Loan?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8433d396148c090b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 22 2008 12:27 am
From: cakapgold

Do You Know Where To Get A Safe Payday Loan?

http://tips.susahsenang.com/wp-admin
http://tips.susahsenang.com/wp-admin

company. So many people are using these services to supplement their
income when they find themselves in unexpected situations that require
more money than what they have on hand. They are really convenient
because they usually require no credit checks and only a minimum of
other paperwork and requirements. Almost anyone who has a regular job
and a checking account in good standing can be eligible for one of
these loans.

http://tips.susahsenang.com/wp-admin
http://tips.susahsenang.com/wp-admin

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Report: RNC spent over $150,000 on Sarah Palin's clothes ($75,062.63
shopping spree at Neiman-Marcus)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/41eeab1d0102ca7c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 22 2008 5:36 am
From: gb_xy@yahoo.com

RNC spends thousands on dresses, make-up for Sarah Palin & family
By KENNETH R. BAZINET
DAILY NEWS WASHINGTON BUREAU
Updated Wednesday, October 22nd 2008, 12:09 AM

WASHINGTON - Lipstick isn't the only difference between America's top
hockey mom and a pit bull.

Sarah Palin also has a spectacular new wardrobe, and Republican
campaign donors picked up the breathtaking tab.

The Republican National Committee spent $150,000 on clothing and
accessories for the vice presidential candidate and her family since
early September, according to a report by the Politico Web site.

At Saks Fifth Avenue stores in Manhattan and St. Louis, the RNC paid
for $49,425.74 in Palin apparel, the report said, citing financial
disclosure records.

There also was a $75,062.63 shopping spree at Neiman Marcus in
Minneapolis, where the Palins stayed during the Republican National
Convention last month; $9.447.71 at Macy's in Minneapolis; and
$5,102.71 at Bloomingdale's in New York.

That much cash can buy a closet full of the pumps, hot red leather
jackets and form-fitting business suits for the Alaska governor to
wear on the stump

Another $4,716.49 on hair and makeup came from the GOP while wooing
"Joe Six-Pack" to vote for John McCain, the records showed. And more
than $5,000 went to a men's store and a baby clothing store.

At first, the McCain-Palin campaign and RNC refused to explain the
spending.

"The RNC does not discuss expenses as it relates to strategy," said
spokesman Danny Diaz.

Late Tuesday night, McCain-Palin spokeswoman Tracey Schmitt said the
clothes will be tossed in a charity bin of some sort after Nov. 4.

"It was always the intent that the clothing go to a charitable purpose
after the campaign," Schmitt said.

The Obama-Biden camp had no comment. But were Democrats salivating
over the prospects for ridicule? You betcha.

"I wonder how 'Joe the Plumber' feels about his donation going to
Sarah the Shopper," one Democratic operative joked. "I guess she can
also see Saks from her doorstep," the party source said - a taskeoff
on Palin's comment that you can see Russia from Alaska.

Joe Biden's uninspired wardrobe does not receive a campaign subsidy, a
source close to Biden said, and the follicle-challenged Democratic
veep nominee gets $20 haircuts from a barber in Wimington, Del.,
according to past reports.

Federal law would bar the McCain-Palin campaign from converting
campaign funds to "personal use" - a definition that specifically
includes clothing purchases.

Palin also faces questions over a separate report Tuesday that she
charged the state of Alaska more than $20,000 since taking office to
take her children with her to events at which the kids were neither
invited nor expected.

Among the trips cited by the Associated Press was a July meeting of
the National Governors Association. Palin charged the state $2,741.26
to take daughters Bristol and Piper to Philadelphia, where the girls
had their own room for five nights at the Ritz-Carlton Hotel, for
$215.46 a night.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Gas.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/29c665c81bbb67da?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 22 2008 5:49 am
From: clams_casino

James wrote:

>Filled up today. $1 a gallon cheaper than my last fill up. 16 cents
>cheaper per gallow than yesterday at a different Exxon station 15
>miles away.
>
>

Filled at an Exxon yesterday at $2.54 / gallon.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The rain is winning
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/387ab70dc2616cff?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 10 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 22 2008 7:22 am
From: "john d hamilton"

I recently installed a yardmaster metal shed in the garden. After a good
shower of rain the inside has huge wet patches on the concrete floor.

The sheds on a cement base with the top three or four inches being a mix of
one cement to four sharp sand and under that top layer, it's a mix of one
cement to three sharp sand and three Wickes ballast (gravel).

I have put a bead of *clear* silicone around the metal frame base of the
shed, but its obviouslly not enough to stop the problem. The Yardmaster
technical advice staff have advised using Shell Tixophalte 'seal and fix'
flexible bitumen sealer. I cannot get this in any local shops and a web
search usually reveals wholesalers who are mainly selling to the trade, and
it also looks to be expensive stuff to buy.

This link posted to the tinypic website will show the photo I took of the
outside edge of the shed

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=27yok29&s=4

This picture below is on the inside and shows the metal frame base.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=28vrkpj&s=4

Would anyone advise a novice on; Would lashings of the clear silicone
sealant I have already bought be more or less as good to use as a bitumen
sealent? I would prefer to use a clear silicone since masses of a black non
setting bitumen would not look so good smeared all around the base. but if
bitumen is best then i guess i can pick up some at Wickes, rather than use
the Shell product?

Another aspect of this wet floor problem is that on the side of the shed
(where this photo was taken) the edge of the cement base is only three or
four inches from the shed base. But on the opposite two sides the width of
the cement base is about 18 inches one side and about 20 inches on the
other. My thoughts are, is the cement porous like blotting paper? thus
soaking up a lot of water on these larger flat areas and transferring it
inside the shed? If the cement base is in fact behaving like this, then i'm
guessing i would
have to seal the whole width of the base area around the shed.

Since i'm using this outside flat space for storing ladders etc, i would not
want to have to
walk on a 'non setting' type sealant or i guess even a silicone sealant. If
this blotting paper type activity is likely to be 'for real', what might be
a way to seal this part of the base please? Grateful for any other advice
on this problem,
thanks.

== 2 of 10 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 22 2008 7:39 am
From: "Baz"

I would say the rain is running down what looks like a sliding door and
collecting the channel and getting in that way.
Baz

== 3 of 10 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 22 2008 8:11 am
From: "BigWallop"

If you want a good sealant, then go for Gutter Seal from any big DIY Store.
It's mainly used on the joints of rain guttering, but it works perfectly for
the kind of joints you have to fill. It's just as flexible as the bitumus
one you have been recommended by the shed team.

But, saying that, I'd also have a look at what Baz is saying about the door
area. If it is the door, then you can use a bath seal strip or similar to
blank around the edges of the door. You could even use a good brush type
draught excluder to stop the rain blowing / dripping in past the edges or
the runners.

Either way you go with it, take your time and good luck.

== 4 of 10 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 22 2008 8:40 am
From: zekfrivo@zekfrivolous.com (GregS)

In article <gdncvd$p0c$1@registered.motzarella.org>, "john d hamilton" <bluestar@mail.invalid> wrote:
>I recently installed a yardmaster metal shed in the garden. After a good
>shower of rain the inside has huge wet patches on the concrete floor.
>
>The sheds on a cement base with the top three or four inches being a mix of
>one cement to four sharp sand and under that top layer, it's a mix of one
>cement to three sharp sand and three Wickes ballast (gravel).
>
>I have put a bead of *clear* silicone around the metal frame base of the
>shed, but its obviouslly not enough to stop the problem. The Yardmaster
>technical advice staff have advised using Shell Tixophalte 'seal and fix'
>flexible bitumen sealer. I cannot get this in any local shops and a web
>search usually reveals wholesalers who are mainly selling to the trade, and
>it also looks to be expensive stuff to buy.
>
>This link posted to the tinypic website will show the photo I took of the
>outside edge of the shed
>
>http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=27yok29&s=4
>
>This picture below is on the inside and shows the metal frame base.
>
>http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=28vrkpj&s=4
>
>Would anyone advise a novice on; Would lashings of the clear silicone
>sealant I have already bought be more or less as good to use as a bitumen
>sealent? I would prefer to use a clear silicone since masses of a black non
>setting bitumen would not look so good smeared all around the base. but if
>bitumen is best then i guess i can pick up some at Wickes, rather than use
>the Shell product?
>
>Another aspect of this wet floor problem is that on the side of the shed
>(where this photo was taken) the edge of the cement base is only three or
>four inches from the shed base. But on the opposite two sides the width of
>the cement base is about 18 inches one side and about 20 inches on the
>other. My thoughts are, is the cement porous like blotting paper? thus
>soaking up a lot of water on these larger flat areas and transferring it
>inside the shed? If the cement base is in fact behaving like this, then i'm
>guessing i would
>have to seal the whole width of the base area around the shed.
>
>Since i'm using this outside flat space for storing ladders etc, i would not
>want to have to
>walk on a 'non setting' type sealant or i guess even a silicone sealant. If
>this blotting paper type activity is likely to be 'for real', what might be
>a way to seal this part of the base please? Grateful for any other advice
>on this problem,
>thanks.

As far as sealing, I sealed my garage with some stuff from the cement company.
I could not find the stuff anywhere including The Home Depot. Its almost like a varnish,
or at least it smells like it. I would want to put flashings attached to the shed to form
a drip edge away from the shed cement pad.

I'll remember to put a slight angle on the concrete if I make one.

greg

== 5 of 10 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 22 2008 8:48 am
From: Broadback

GregS wrote:
> In article <gdncvd$p0c$1@registered.motzarella.org>, "john d hamilton" <bluestar@mail.invalid> wrote:
>> I recently installed a yardmaster metal shed in the garden. After a good
>> shower of rain the inside has huge wet patches on the concrete floor.
>>
>> The sheds on a cement base with the top three or four inches being a mix of
>> one cement to four sharp sand and under that top layer, it's a mix of one
>> cement to three sharp sand and three Wickes ballast (gravel).
>>
>> I have put a bead of *clear* silicone around the metal frame base of the
>> shed, but its obviouslly not enough to stop the problem. The Yardmaster
>> technical advice staff have advised using Shell Tixophalte 'seal and fix'
>> flexible bitumen sealer. I cannot get this in any local shops and a web
>> search usually reveals wholesalers who are mainly selling to the trade, and
>> it also looks to be expensive stuff to buy.
>>
>> This link posted to the tinypic website will show the photo I took of the
>> outside edge of the shed
>>
>> http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=27yok29&s=4
>>
>> This picture below is on the inside and shows the metal frame base.
>>
>> http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=28vrkpj&s=4
>>
>> Would anyone advise a novice on; Would lashings of the clear silicone
>> sealant I have already bought be more or less as good to use as a bitumen
>> sealent? I would prefer to use a clear silicone since masses of a black non
>> setting bitumen would not look so good smeared all around the base. but if
>> bitumen is best then i guess i can pick up some at Wickes, rather than use
>> the Shell product?
>>
>> Another aspect of this wet floor problem is that on the side of the shed
>> (where this photo was taken) the edge of the cement base is only three or
>> four inches from the shed base. But on the opposite two sides the width of
>> the cement base is about 18 inches one side and about 20 inches on the
>> other. My thoughts are, is the cement porous like blotting paper? thus
>> soaking up a lot of water on these larger flat areas and transferring it
>> inside the shed? If the cement base is in fact behaving like this, then i'm
>> guessing i would
>> have to seal the whole width of the base area around the shed.
>>
>> Since i'm using this outside flat space for storing ladders etc, i would not
>> want to have to
>> walk on a 'non setting' type sealant or i guess even a silicone sealant. If
>> this blotting paper type activity is likely to be 'for real', what might be
>> a way to seal this part of the base please? Grateful for any other advice
>> on this problem,
>> thanks.
>
> As far as sealing, I sealed my garage with some stuff from the cement company.
> I could not find the stuff anywhere including The Home Depot. Its almost like a varnish,
> or at least it smells like it. I would want to put flashings attached to the shed to form
> a drip edge away from the shed cement pad.
>
> I'll remember to put a slight angle on the concrete if I make one.
>
> greg
>
I have had no problems with mine, however I modified the installation
instructions slightly. I fitted the base fittings, with plenty of
silicon underneath then assembled the garage on top.

== 6 of 10 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 22 2008 10:40 am
From: "OG"

"john d hamilton" <bluestar@mail.invalid> wrote in message
news:gdncvd$p0c$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>I recently installed a yardmaster metal shed in the garden. After a good
> shower of rain the inside has huge wet patches on the concrete floor.
>
> The sheds on a cement base with the top three or four inches being a mix
> of
> one cement to four sharp sand and under that top layer, it's a mix of one
> cement to three sharp sand and three Wickes ballast (gravel).
>
> I have put a bead of *clear* silicone around the metal frame base of the
> shed, but its obviouslly not enough to stop the problem. The Yardmaster
> technical advice staff have advised using Shell Tixophalte 'seal and fix'
> flexible bitumen sealer. I cannot get this in any local shops and a web
> search usually reveals wholesalers who are mainly selling to the trade,
> and
> it also looks to be expensive stuff to buy.
>
> This link posted to the tinypic website will show the photo I took of the
> outside edge of the shed
>
> http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=27yok29&s=4
>
> This picture below is on the inside and shows the metal frame base.
>
> http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=28vrkpj&s=4
>
> Would anyone advise a novice on; Would lashings of the clear silicone
> sealant I have already bought be more or less as good to use as a bitumen
> sealent? I would prefer to use a clear silicone since masses of a black
> non
> setting bitumen would not look so good smeared all around the base. but if
> bitumen is best then i guess i can pick up some at Wickes, rather than use
> the Shell product?
>
> Another aspect of this wet floor problem is that on the side of the shed
> (where this photo was taken) the edge of the cement base is only three or
> four inches from the shed base. But on the opposite two sides the width of
> the cement base is about 18 inches one side and about 20 inches on the
> other. My thoughts are, is the cement porous like blotting paper? thus
> soaking up a lot of water on these larger flat areas and transferring it
> inside the shed? If the cement base is in fact behaving like this, then
> i'm guessing i would
> have to seal the whole width of the base area around the shed.
>
> Since i'm using this outside flat space for storing ladders etc, i would
> not want to have to
> walk on a 'non setting' type sealant or i guess even a silicone sealant.
> If
> this blotting paper type activity is likely to be 'for real', what might
> be
> a way to seal this part of the base please? Grateful for any other
> advice on this problem,
> thanks.

When I asked a week ago or so, the recommendation from uk.d-i-y was to put a
raised floor of thick Sterling board (OSB) on treated floor joists.

As I had limited headroom I ignored this advice and put a waterproof layer
(2 layers of pond liner) inside the shed and laid the OSB straight on to
this. The liner extends up around the OSB so there shouldn't be any water
leakage from below or from the sides - but apparently I am being witless for
ignoring the advice of the group and will suffer terribly from condensation.
No sign of problems yet though!

I'm relying on gaps under the eaves to help with any internal condensation.

== 7 of 10 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 22 2008 11:08 am
From: DerbyDad03

On Oct 22, 10:39 am, "Baz" <brash...@REMOVEmsn.com> wrote:
> "john d hamilton" <blues...@mail.invalid> wrote in messagenews:gdncvd$p0c$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>
>
>
> >I recently installed a yardmaster metal shed in the garden. After a good
> > shower of rain the inside has huge wet patches on the concrete floor.
>
> > The sheds on a cement base with the top three or four inches being a mix
> > of
> > one cement to four sharp sand and under that top layer, it's a mix of one
> > cement to three sharp sand and three Wickes ballast (gravel).
>
> > I have put a bead of *clear* silicone around the metal frame base of the
> > shed, but its obviouslly not enough to stop the problem. The Yardmaster
> > technical advice staff have advised using Shell Tixophalte 'seal and fix'
> > flexible bitumen sealer. I cannot get this in any local shops and a web
> > search usually reveals wholesalers who are mainly selling to the trade,
> > and
> > it also looks to be expensive stuff to buy.
>
> > This link posted to the tinypic website will show the photo I took of the
> > outside edge of the shed
>
> >http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=27yok29&s=4
>
> <BIG SNIP>
>
> I would say the rain is running down what looks like a sliding door and
> collecting the channel and getting in that way.
> Baz- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Grab a flashlight, a garden hose and a friend.

You and the flashlight go inside the shed, your friend and the hose
stay outside.

The friend makes it rain, you look for the leak(s).

== 8 of 10 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 22 2008 11:59 am
From: Harry Bloomfield

john d hamilton brought next idea :
> I recently installed a yardmaster metal shed in the garden. After a good
> shower of rain the inside has huge wet patches on the concrete floor.
>
> The sheds on a cement base with the top three or four inches being a mix of
> one cement to four sharp sand and under that top layer, it's a mix of one
> cement to three sharp sand and three Wickes ballast (gravel).

My thoughts would be along the lines of it either running down the
sides, then into the base frame and from there overflowing into the
shed. Seems improbable that they would have designed it where it could
do this, so it must be landing on the edge of exposed concrete and
wicking under the frame to the inside.

Assuming the latter, many pre-cast garages suffer similar problems.
There are two solutions. One is to go around the inside and create a
2"x 2" triangular web of cement between wall and floor, trying to make
sure it sticks to the floor but not the wall - a narrow strip of
plastic sheet placed against wall will help achieve this.

Another way would be to raise the floor inside with a thin cement
screed. Either way will force the water to drain out, rather than be
wicked into the hut.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

== 9 of 10 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 22 2008 12:34 pm
From: "jloomis"

Build a platform floor. Concrete is absorbant.....
There are water sealer for concrete....
Thoroseal is one, water based sealer..........look it up
the problem is the shed sitting on a shared floor with the concrete and
seepage, absorbtion, or both....
A raised platform would be easy, out of 2x4 PT fir.....sit the shed on that.
jloomis
"john d hamilton" <bluestar@mail.invalid> wrote in message
news:gdncvd$p0c$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>I recently installed a yardmaster metal shed in the garden. After a good
> shower of rain the inside has huge wet patches on the concrete floor.
>
> The sheds on a cement base with the top three or four inches being a mix
> of
> one cement to four sharp sand and under that top layer, it's a mix of one
> cement to three sharp sand and three Wickes ballast (gravel).
>
> I have put a bead of *clear* silicone around the metal frame base of the
> shed, but its obviouslly not enough to stop the problem. The Yardmaster
> technical advice staff have advised using Shell Tixophalte 'seal and fix'
> flexible bitumen sealer. I cannot get this in any local shops and a web
> search usually reveals wholesalers who are mainly selling to the trade,
> and
> it also looks to be expensive stuff to buy.
>
> This link posted to the tinypic website will show the photo I took of the
> outside edge of the shed
>
> http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=27yok29&s=4
>
> This picture below is on the inside and shows the metal frame base.
>
> http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=28vrkpj&s=4
>
> Would anyone advise a novice on; Would lashings of the clear silicone
> sealant I have already bought be more or less as good to use as a bitumen
> sealent? I would prefer to use a clear silicone since masses of a black
> non
> setting bitumen would not look so good smeared all around the base. but if
> bitumen is best then i guess i can pick up some at Wickes, rather than use
> the Shell product?
>
> Another aspect of this wet floor problem is that on the side of the shed
> (where this photo was taken) the edge of the cement base is only three or
> four inches from the shed base. But on the opposite two sides the width of
> the cement base is about 18 inches one side and about 20 inches on the
> other. My thoughts are, is the cement porous like blotting paper? thus
> soaking up a lot of water on these larger flat areas and transferring it
> inside the shed? If the cement base is in fact behaving like this, then
> i'm guessing i would
> have to seal the whole width of the base area around the shed.
>
> Since i'm using this outside flat space for storing ladders etc, i would
> not want to have to
> walk on a 'non setting' type sealant or i guess even a silicone sealant.
> If
> this blotting paper type activity is likely to be 'for real', what might
> be
> a way to seal this part of the base please? Grateful for any other
> advice on this problem,
> thanks.
>
>
>

== 10 of 10 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 22 2008 12:37 pm
From: "jloomis"

Oh yeh...sheds can have condensation problems also......Uninsulated, steel
walls do condense...You will see this on the southern exposure on a hot or
warm day........inside the building, and on the metal roof interior....
jloomis
"john d hamilton" <bluestar@mail.invalid> wrote in message
news:gdncvd$p0c$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>I recently installed a yardmaster metal shed in the garden. After a good
> shower of rain the inside has huge wet patches on the concrete floor.
>
> The sheds on a cement base with the top three or four inches being a mix
> of
> one cement to four sharp sand and under that top layer, it's a mix of one
> cement to three sharp sand and three Wickes ballast (gravel).
>
> I have put a bead of *clear* silicone around the metal frame base of the
> shed, but its obviouslly not enough to stop the problem. The Yardmaster
> technical advice staff have advised using Shell Tixophalte 'seal and fix'
> flexible bitumen sealer. I cannot get this in any local shops and a web
> search usually reveals wholesalers who are mainly selling to the trade,
> and
> it also looks to be expensive stuff to buy.
>
> This link posted to the tinypic website will show the photo I took of the
> outside edge of the shed
>
> http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=27yok29&s=4
>
> This picture below is on the inside and shows the metal frame base.
>
> http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=28vrkpj&s=4
>
> Would anyone advise a novice on; Would lashings of the clear silicone
> sealant I have already bought be more or less as good to use as a bitumen
> sealent? I would prefer to use a clear silicone since masses of a black
> non
> setting bitumen would not look so good smeared all around the base. but if
> bitumen is best then i guess i can pick up some at Wickes, rather than use
> the Shell product?
>
> Another aspect of this wet floor problem is that on the side of the shed
> (where this photo was taken) the edge of the cement base is only three or
> four inches from the shed base. But on the opposite two sides the width of
> the cement base is about 18 inches one side and about 20 inches on the
> other. My thoughts are, is the cement porous like blotting paper? thus
> soaking up a lot of water on these larger flat areas and transferring it
> inside the shed? If the cement base is in fact behaving like this, then
> i'm guessing i would
> have to seal the whole width of the base area around the shed.
>
> Since i'm using this outside flat space for storing ladders etc, i would
> not want to have to
> walk on a 'non setting' type sealant or i guess even a silicone sealant.
> If
> this blotting paper type activity is likely to be 'for real', what might
> be
> a way to seal this part of the base please? Grateful for any other
> advice on this problem,
> thanks.
>
>
>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Installment Loan Versus Line Of Credit
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3209e869c5fe8fc9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 22 2008 8:11 am
From: cakapgold

Installment Loan Versus Line Of Credit

http://tips.susahsenang.com/?p=253

There are times when consumers simply need to borrow money. As most
people know, there are many different ways to borrow money. Two of the
most common ways are through either an installment loan or through a
line of credit.

http://tips.susahsenang.com/?p=253

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The "halve what you can" approach
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/557183cf66736055?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 22 2008 10:00 am
From: E Z Peaces

Enough Already wrote:
> On Oct 21, 6:31 pm, E Z Peaces <c...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Enough Already wrote:
>>
>>> Halving the amount of time lights are on in houses would be easy.
>>> Halving the wattage with CFLs takes little effort. It seems the
>>> advertised life of CFLs is overstated if they get turned on/off too
>>> quickly. The ballast doesn't like the shock.
>> In reliability tests, some models of CFLs had withstood vastly more
>> switching cycles than others. I think the old US standard was 1,000
>> cycles per 6,000 advertised hours of life. Now it's 3,000 cycles per
>> 8,000 hours of life. Since 1999, the European standard has been 2
>> cycles per hour of life. That's more than five times higher.
>>
>> Advance makes CFL ballasts designed for 50,000 cycles minimum; I don't
>> know how long the bulbs would last.
>
> I'll have to check that out and maybe try some pricier models. So far
> it seems like it's not just the number of cycles, but the time they
> are left ON per cycle. Anecdotes indicate 15 minutes minimum, but it
> could well be about the total number of cycles.

I've seen test results with groups of CFLs of the same model, switched
on for periods of 1 to 300 seconds at a time. All groups lasted about
11,000 cycles.

With the old US standard (1,000 cycles per 6,000 hours) you would have
to leave it on at least 6 hours on the average to get the rated hours.
With the new US standard, you would have to leave it on 2 hours and 40
minutes on the average. With the European standard, you would need to
leave it on only 30 minutes.

The old US standard would be okay for my living room, where I'd leave it
on all evening. In a bathroom, the number of cycles would determine the
life of the bulb; after all, why leave the light on so it will die one
way and not another?
>
> I haven't had one last for more than 2 or 3 years at ~4 hours a day,
> which falls short of the 8,000+ hours typically advertised.

I've been disappointed with some and delighted with others. Maybe bad
ones have been on the market due to big demand for a novel product;
consumers who weren't aware that bulb life could depend on start cycles
weren't willing to pay for more cycles. Start cycles should be
published on the package!

>
> White LED home lighting looks promising despite high initial cost.
>
I love them for flashlights. As with CFLs, some aren't nearly as good
as others. An LED light that draws as much current as an incandescent
bulb and runs on three AAA cells could disappoint.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 22 2008 2:09 pm
From: The Real Bev

lisajoe@privacy.net wrote:

>>> use a menstrual keeper! saves money and does not generate stinky trash. great
>>> for backpacking..
>>
>>Hadn't heard of that before. Good concept if the seal won't break at
>>inopportune times.
>>
>>http://enough_already.tripod.com/
>>
>>Earth to human race: drop some of your needs!

Human race to earth: if we could drop them, they wouldn't be needs.

> the seal does not break until it is full but even then it just leaks a bit. a
> pad can always br worn with it if you are unsure.

Maybe I'm just clumsy, but removing it the first time resulted in
something resembling an explosion in a blood bank. I can't imagine
using the thing anywhere without a copious supply of running water.

--
Cheers, Bev
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey
and car keys to teenage boys." -- P.J. O'Rourke

==============================================================================
TOPIC: replacing the blower motor on my car
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e2ed89c096a191e5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 22 2008 11:23 am
From: "NotMe"

"OhioGuy" <none@none.net> wrote in message news:gdlacf$ps0$1@aioe.org...
| Back in May I noticed that our car's blower was squealing whenever I
| put it on the high setting. I was unable to remove the blower (it is a
| squirrel cage type) because the alternator is too close, so I simply
| made a vampire tap (drilled a hole) on the front of the motor casing,
| and squirted in some WD-40. The squealing stopped for a while, then
| came back. Over the next few months, the fan seemed to be slowly dying,
| but it worked ok on low or medium without any noise.

NEVER EVER use WD40 as a lubricant. A good general purpose light duty oil
is what's sold for air tools.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Ask Amy: "Urge daughter to protect heart, wallet"
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/baf7bd5758fb02f8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 22 2008 2:56 pm
From: lenona321@yahoo.com

My only question is, how often do couples who plan to MARRY do what
Amy suggests? I'm guessing a large percentage don't.
Lenona.

http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/32373354.html?elr=KArks7PYDiaK7DUHPYDiaK7DUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU

By AMY DICKINSON

Dear Amy: My daughter is in her mid-20s and has been in a relationship
for a year with a never-married (we think) guy who is at least 12
years older than she. It's her first serious relationship.

Our daughter is a successful businessperson who owns her own condo and
car and has money in the bank. She is talking about giving up her
condo and moving in with him.

He owns his own place, but he has a huge mortgage and lost his job
about eight months ago. He has been forgoing buying health insurance,
so he must not have money saved up.

We've yet to meet him. There has always been some excuse why we
haven't met.

We've asked her to go slowly and think about where this relationship
is going and what she's doing, but we fear it may be too late. Aside
from the emotional pitfalls, we are afraid that in this economic
climate she is going to commit financial suicide.

What can we say to her?

HEARTSICK MOM

Amy says: You should continue to urge your daughter to be careful and
cautious -- all the time realizing that she is an adult and thus
responsible for her own disasters, romantic and otherwise.

Before cohabiting, your daughter should consider pursuing a prenuptial
or "cohabitation agreement." This process would require both parties
to fully disclose their financial situations and negotiate terms in
which they choose what to commingle and what to keep separate.

The process of disclosure and negotiation is an important one -- not
only for the necessary truth-telling, but because this is an important
test of both parties' ability to realistically make choices on their
own behalf and on behalf of the relationship.

It can be an eye-opener.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 22 2008 3:31 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

lenona321@yahoo.com wrote:

> My only question is, how often do couples who plan to MARRY do what Amy suggests?
> I'm guessing a large percentage don't.

Corse they dont. Hardly anyone is that stupid.

Thats not what marraige is about.

> http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/32373354.html?elr=KArks7PYDiaK7DUHPYDiaK7DUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU
>
> By AMY DICKINSON
>
> Dear Amy: My daughter is in her mid-20s and has been in a relationship
> for a year with a never-married (we think) guy who is at least 12
> years older than she. It's her first serious relationship.
>
> Our daughter is a successful businessperson who owns her own condo and
> car and has money in the bank. She is talking about giving up her
> condo and moving in with him.
>
> He owns his own place, but he has a huge mortgage and lost his job
> about eight months ago. He has been forgoing buying health insurance,
> so he must not have money saved up.
>
> We've yet to meet him. There has always been some excuse why we
> haven't met.
>
> We've asked her to go slowly and think about where this relationship
> is going and what she's doing, but we fear it may be too late. Aside
> from the emotional pitfalls, we are afraid that in this economic
> climate she is going to commit financial suicide.
>
> What can we say to her?
>
> HEARTSICK MOM
>
> Amy says: You should continue to urge your daughter to be careful and
> cautious -- all the time realizing that she is an adult and thus
> responsible for her own disasters, romantic and otherwise.
>
> Before cohabiting, your daughter should consider pursuing a prenuptial
> or "cohabitation agreement." This process would require both parties
> to fully disclose their financial situations and negotiate terms in
> which they choose what to commingle and what to keep separate.
>
> The process of disclosure and negotiation is an important one -- not
> only for the necessary truth-telling, but because this is an important
> test of both parties' ability to realistically make choices on their
> own behalf and on behalf of the relationship.
>
> It can be an eye-opener.

==============================================================================

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Google Groups: http://groups.google.com/?hl=en

20 new messages in 10 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: In these economic times, a new comic strip I'd LIKE to see....
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ea6c6c7b9d67c81b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Oct 21 2008 1:20 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

lenona321@yahoo.com wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
>> lenona...@yahoo.com wrote

>>> Granted, the mothers in "Stone Soup" or "Heart of the City" would be
>>> likely candidates for imposing the former system, but I've yet to
>>> see them say "you want it, you earn it" more than, say, once a
>>> year. Not to mention I thought it was outrageous when, in "Zits,"
>>> (I think it was in the book "Jeremy & Mom") Connie Duncan bursts in
>>> and starts yelling at Jeremy about his cell phone/texting bill and
>>> Jeremy simply nods gravely at the right times without mentally
>>> hearing a word, since he knows she'll calm down and hug him
>>> eventually. Did it ever occur to Connie that none of this would
>>> happen if HE had to work and pay for every little personal luxury
>>> that can easily get out of control?

>> Plenty still have the same problem when they do get to work and pay for everything.

> I don't follow. Are you saying that many teens can't control
> their spending even when they work for all their money?

Yep.

> Maybe.

No maybe about it.

> However, at least Connie would have no cause to yell at Jeremy if
> it were HIS earned money we were talking about - but in that strip,
> she was yelling clearly because the bill was going to her and Dad.

Yep, only a fool does it like that.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Follow-u: Re: Home heating oil price?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/25ab6d7a439ac7f1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Oct 21 2008 12:37 pm
From: Ann

On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 16:34:53 -0400, Ann wrote:
<...>

Ordered home heating oil fill today @ 2.879 (10-day cash). I expect
the price will drop more before I would need to buy it, but decided that
would be pushing my luck too far.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Oct 21 2008 1:54 pm
From: Jeff

Vic Smith wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:25:45 -0400, OhioGuy <none@none.net> wrote:
>
>> Anyone know how to move an alternator up and out of the way on a 1996
>> Buick Century? (or where I might be able to find some helpful info on
>> something like that?) Thanks!
>
> Ask at rec.autos.tech.

Or get a repair manual. That's a common enough problem. You can read the
manual in store if you don't feel like coughing up the $12.

I believe Auto Zone also has as online "How To".

Jeff

But if it close to being like most of the
> similar GM's I've done, it goes like this:
> Turn the tensioner to loosen and disconnect the serpentine belt from
> the alt pulley.
> Use a wrench or maybe a pry bar. Be careful you don't break anything
> with the pry bar.
> Remove a couple bolts to move the alt.
> If you have mess with the wiring to the alt, or there's the chance of
> it shorting anywhere on the engine, disconnect the battery first.
> Reverse the process after you replace the blower motor.
> If you disconnected the battery, you might have to "relearn"
> the electronics.
> You can look that up, or ask at rec.autos.tech.
> Don't hold me responsible if you mess something up.
> Just be careful and know what you're doing before you start.
>
> --Vic

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Oct 21 2008 2:01 pm
From: Al Bundy

On Oct 21, 1:55 am, cakapgold <sitinoora...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Do You Know Where To Get A Safe Payday Loan?
>
>
> One of the most popular ways of getting a loan today is through a
> payday or check advance company. So many people are using these
> services to supplement their income when they find themselves in
> unexpected situations that require more money than what they have on
> hand. They are really convenient because they usually require no
> credit checks and only a minimum of other paperwork and requirements.
> Almost anyone who has a regular job and a checking account in good
> standing can be eligible for one of these loans.
>
>
It's not a way to supplement income. It's quite expensive. It's
borrowing from Peter to pay Paul and that makes your peter sore.
Not that you care anyway beyond driving traffic.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: narrative taken from Sunday Morning's televised 'Meet The Press,' and
the author is employed none other than the Washington Post
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/276d84a9173419c9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Oct 21 2008 3:40 pm
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

> Yeah......the Washington Post of New York and Los Angeles Times fame!!
>
> Must say that I'm duly impressed.................. From Sunday's Televised
>
> 'Meet the Press' Senator Obama was asked about his stance on the American
>
> Flag. Obama Explains National Anthem Stance Sun, 07 Sept. 2008 11:48:04
>
> EST, General Bill Ginn' USAF (ret.) asked Obama
>
> to explain why he doesn't follow protocol when the National Anthem is
> played.
>
> The General also stated to the Senator that according to the United States
>
> Code, Title 36, Chapter 10, Sec. 171... During rendition of the national
>
> anthem when the flag is displayed, all present except those in uniform are
>
> expected to stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over
> the
>
> heart. At the very least, 'Stand and face it.'
>
> Senator Obama Live on Sunday states,
>
> 'As I've said about the flag pin, I don't want to be perceived as taking
>
> sides, Obama said. 'There are a lot of people in the world to whom the
>
> American flag is a symbol of oppression.
>
> And the anthem itself conveys a war-like message. You know, the bombs
>
> bursting in air and all.
>
> It should be swapped for something less parochial and less bellicose. I
> like
>
> the song 'I'd Like To Teach the World To Sing.' If that were our anthem,
>
> then I might salute it. 'We should consider to reinvent our National
> Anthem
>
> as well as to redesign our Flag to better offer our enemies hope and love.
>
> It's my intention, if elected, to disarm America to the level of
> acceptance
>
> to our Middle East Brethren. If we as a Nation of warring people, should
>
> conduct ourselves as the nations of Islam, whereas peace prevails.
> Perhaps
>
> a state or period of mutual concord between our governments. When I become
>
> President, I will seek a pact or agreement to end hostilities between
> those
>
> who have been at war or in a state of enmity, and a freedom from
> disquieting
>
> oppressive thoughts.
>
> We as a Nation have placed upon the nations of Islam an unfair injustice.
> My
>
> wife disrespects the Flag for many personal reasons. Together she and I
> have
>
> attended several flag burning ceremonies in the past, many years ago. She
>
> has her views and I have mine'. Of course now, I have found myself about
> to
>
> become the President of the United States and I have put aside my hatred.
> I
>
> will use my power to bring CHANGE to this Nation, and offer the people a
> new
>
> path of hope. My wife and I look forward to becoming our Country's First
>
> Family. Indeed, CHANGE is about to overwhelm the United States of America
> .
>
> WHAAAAAAAT the Hell !!! Yes, ladies and gentlemen, you heard it right.
>
> This could possibly be our next President. I, for one, am speechless.
>
> Dale Lindsborg , Washington Post

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Oct 21 2008 3:47 pm
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Tues, Oct 21 2008 3:46 pm
From: OhioGuy

I've got a meeting tomorrow about the 2008 reappraisal of our house
for tax purposes. So many houses are vacant that our city has jacked up
the values for those of us who are actually paying taxes to try to make
up the difference.

The thing is, the city simply used a sample of similar properties
that people overpaid for to determine the values of OUR properties.
They farmed this out to a third party company which simply drove by and
took a picture of the outside of our house, then used a computer program
to determine that the true value of our house should be 45% higher than
the price we paid for it 5 years ago.

This is despite the fact that average sale prices for our zip have
DECLINED 19.4% over the past year. (according to trulia.com, July-Sept
2007 vs July-Sept 2008) So somehow they are saying the value went up
enough over the past 4 years to still be up 45% after a 19.4% drop this
year. That's amazing - considering that Ohio never had a housing
bubble, and houses have been fairly stable.

Granted, we didn't overpay for our place. We got it at fair market
value, and paid the asking price of $46,000 for our 2,500 square foot
duplex. (6 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms) It sounds low compared to many parts
of the country, but it LOOKED bad. It had water damage to the drywall,
and lots of things needed painted and spackled, but everything was
structurally solid.

Anyway, guess who is hearing my complaint? Yes, it is the third
party company who the city farmed the appraisal out to. I'm SURE they
will be quite fair and unbiased in hearing me.

Of course, I've looked at the taxes being paid by many of my
neighbors, as well as the prices paid for their homes. Most of them
evidently either overpaid, or are paying higher taxes than I am.
Evidently they never successfully complained about the taxes when given
the opportunity.

My chances look pretty bleak. When I saw duplex after duplex in the
area with even higher taxes than ours, and sales prices higher than
ours, I began doubting whether I'd be able to make any traction to my
argument. I also decided not to spend the $600 on having a new
appraisal done, since it looked like it would probably just be money
down the drain.

The only thing I can really argue at this point is that the sales
prices of other homes in the area are rather general and meaningless
when compared to the actual sales price of THIS property back in October
2003. I can argue that the current appraisal value of THIS property
should be based on the SALES PRICE of THIS property, adjusted for
inflation and the current housing market.

Think I'll get anywhere with that one tomorrow?

Sure, I do have 3 or 4 similar duplexes I've found in the area that
sold for between $25K and $45K in the past 5 years. However, all I can
do with that is highlight how they simply jacked the appraised values up
a lot on those properties as well.

Anyone have any suggestions for me to try tomorrow?

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Tues, Oct 21 2008 3:56 pm
From: Gordon

OhioGuy <none@none.net> wrote in news:gdlm40$4ns$1@aioe.org:

> I've got a meeting tomorrow about the 2008 reappraisal of our house
> for tax purposes. So many houses are vacant that our city has jacked
> up the values for those of us who are actually paying taxes to try to
> make up the difference.
>
> The thing is, the city simply used a sample of similar properties
> that people overpaid for to determine the values of OUR properties.
> They farmed this out to a third party company which simply drove by
> and took a picture of the outside of our house, then used a computer
> program to determine that the true value of our house should be 45%
> higher than the price we paid for it 5 years ago.
>

>
> Anyone have any suggestions for me to try tomorrow?
>

What data are you bringing to the meeting to support your
position? Did you get a realtor or title company to run
you a list of recent sales of simular properties in your
area??

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Tues, Oct 21 2008 4:44 pm
From: "Lou"

"OhioGuy" <none@none.net> wrote in message news:gdlm40$4ns$1@aioe.org...
> I've got a meeting tomorrow about the 2008 reappraisal of our house
> for tax purposes. So many houses are vacant that our city has jacked up
> the values for those of us who are actually paying taxes to try to make
> up the difference.
(snip)
> The only thing I can really argue at this point is that the sales
> prices of other homes in the area are rather general and meaningless
> when compared to the actual sales price of THIS property back in October
> 2003. I can argue that the current appraisal value of THIS property
> should be based on the SALES PRICE of THIS property, adjusted for
> inflation and the current housing market.
>
> Think I'll get anywhere with that one tomorrow?

I don't have anything worthwhile to suggest. However, I'll note that what
you paid for the place in 2003 is irrelevant, as is the recent drop in
average sales price from last year in your zip code - if what they're
supposed to be doing is appraising at today's market, what counts is what
the place would sell for today. From what you've said, "they" could just as
reasonably argue that you've been under-assessed for the last five years.

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Tues, Oct 21 2008 7:43 pm
From: Jeff

OhioGuy wrote:
> I've got a meeting tomorrow about the 2008 reappraisal of our house
> for tax purposes. So many houses are vacant that our city has jacked up
> the values for those of us who are actually paying taxes to try to make
> up the difference.
>

There's a butt load of online appraisals that will give you actual
sales and comps in your neighborhood. realtor.com and zillow.com to name
just two. There's a better one, but I don't have it bookmarked.

I'm still settling my Mom's estate in Ohio. My brother and myself
wanted to buy out my sister who just wants the money from the sale (Dad
built the house). Well, even though she had done an estimate recently
she hired an appraiser who went in and calculated everything that could
be done to raise the selling price. The net result? The house went down 20K.

Jeff

> The thing is, the city simply used a sample of similar properties that
> people overpaid for to determine the values of OUR properties. They
> farmed this out to a third party company which simply drove by and took
> a picture of the outside of our house, then used a computer program to
> determine that the true value of our house should be 45% higher than the
> price we paid for it 5 years ago.
>
> This is despite the fact that average sale prices for our zip have
> DECLINED 19.4% over the past year. (according to trulia.com, July-Sept
> 2007 vs July-Sept 2008) So somehow they are saying the value went up
> enough over the past 4 years to still be up 45% after a 19.4% drop this
> year. That's amazing - considering that Ohio never had a housing
> bubble, and houses have been fairly stable.
>
> Granted, we didn't overpay for our place. We got it at fair market
> value, and paid the asking price of $46,000 for our 2,500 square foot
> duplex. (6 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms) It sounds low compared to many parts
> of the country, but it LOOKED bad. It had water damage to the drywall,
> and lots of things needed painted and spackled, but everything was
> structurally solid.
>
> Anyway, guess who is hearing my complaint? Yes, it is the third party
> company who the city farmed the appraisal out to. I'm SURE they will be
> quite fair and unbiased in hearing me.
>
> Of course, I've looked at the taxes being paid by many of my
> neighbors, as well as the prices paid for their homes. Most of them
> evidently either overpaid, or are paying higher taxes than I am.
> Evidently they never successfully complained about the taxes when given
> the opportunity.
>
> My chances look pretty bleak. When I saw duplex after duplex in the
> area with even higher taxes than ours, and sales prices higher than
> ours, I began doubting whether I'd be able to make any traction to my
> argument. I also decided not to spend the $600 on having a new
> appraisal done, since it looked like it would probably just be money
> down the drain.
>
> The only thing I can really argue at this point is that the sales
> prices of other homes in the area are rather general and meaningless
> when compared to the actual sales price of THIS property back in October
> 2003. I can argue that the current appraisal value of THIS property
> should be based on the SALES PRICE of THIS property, adjusted for
> inflation and the current housing market.
>
> Think I'll get anywhere with that one tomorrow?
>
>
> Sure, I do have 3 or 4 similar duplexes I've found in the area that
> sold for between $25K and $45K in the past 5 years. However, all I can
> do with that is highlight how they simply jacked the appraised values up
> a lot on those properties as well.
>
> Anyone have any suggestions for me to try tomorrow?

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Tues, Oct 21 2008 9:31 pm
From: The Real Bev

Jeff wrote:

> OhioGuy wrote:
>> I've got a meeting tomorrow about the 2008 reappraisal of our house
>> for tax purposes. So many houses are vacant that our city has jacked up
>> the values for those of us who are actually paying taxes to try to make
>> up the difference.

The feds insist on the value at time of death OR 6 months after. My
mom's condo eventually sold for considerably less. We had official ($250
each) appraisals done, which was probably stupid. You just don't get
any personal experience at this stuff and the lawyers and accountants
look at you the way vultures look at desert hikers.

> There's a butt load of online appraisals that will give you actual
> sales and comps in your neighborhood. realtor.com and zillow.com to name
> just two. There's a better one, but I don't have it bookmarked.

Zillow, in the case of my house, doesn't know shit. They think it's
worth $400K, but I know it would be worth that only if the house were
bulldozed and a bigger one built in its place.

--
Cheers, Bev
=======================================================
...so few snipers, so many politicians...

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Tues, Oct 21 2008 10:53 pm
From: "Bob F"

I think it is generally refered to as an assessment rather than an appraisal.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Oct 21 2008 4:07 pm
From: James

Filled up today. $1 a gallon cheaper than my last fill up. 16 cents
cheaper per gallow than yesterday at a different Exxon station 15
miles away.

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Oct 21 2008 6:31 pm
From: E Z Peaces

Enough Already wrote:
>
> Halving the amount of time lights are on in houses would be easy.
> Halving the wattage with CFLs takes little effort. It seems the
> advertised life of CFLs is overstated if they get turned on/off too
> quickly. The ballast doesn't like the shock.
>
In reliability tests, some models of CFLs had withstood vastly more
switching cycles than others. I think the old US standard was 1,000
cycles per 6,000 advertised hours of life. Now it's 3,000 cycles per
8,000 hours of life. Since 1999, the European standard has been 2
cycles per hour of life. That's more than five times higher.

Advance makes CFL ballasts designed for 50,000 cycles minimum; I don't
know how long the bulbs would last.

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Oct 21 2008 8:56 pm
From: Enough Already

On Oct 21, 6:31 pm, E Z Peaces <c...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Enough Already wrote:
>
> > Halving the amount of time lights are on in houses would be easy.
> > Halving the wattage with CFLs takes little effort. It seems the
> > advertised life of CFLs is overstated if they get turned on/off too
> > quickly. The ballast doesn't like the shock.
>
> In reliability tests, some models of CFLs had withstood vastly more
> switching cycles than others. I think the old US standard was 1,000
> cycles per 6,000 advertised hours of life. Now it's 3,000 cycles per
> 8,000 hours of life. Since 1999, the European standard has been 2
> cycles per hour of life. That's more than five times higher.
>
> Advance makes CFL ballasts designed for 50,000 cycles minimum; I don't
> know how long the bulbs would last.

I'll have to check that out and maybe try some pricier models. So far
it seems like it's not just the number of cycles, but the time they
are left ON per cycle. Anecdotes indicate 15 minutes minimum, but it
could well be about the total number of cycles.

I haven't had one last for more than 2 or 3 years at ~4 hours a day,
which falls short of the 8,000+ hours typically advertised.

White LED home lighting looks promising despite high initial cost.

E.A.

http://enough_already.tripod.com/

Birth control is the ultimate green technology.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Oct 21 2008 9:04 pm
From: Enough Already

On Oct 19, 2:08 pm, "h" <tmcl...@searchmachine.com> wrote:
> "Enough Already" <enough_alre...@lycos.com> wrote in message
>
> news:a09f3416-a25d-4705-a591-6a72f2f0f6e7@u46g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Women could get by with half the number of shoes, but I'll leave that
> > one alone! Obviously, this is a partial list.
>
> I'm a 50 year old woman, and I really couldn't get by with half the number
> of shoes. I have 5 pairs. One pair of black dress pumps, one pair of summer
> sandals, one pair of lace up shoes, one pair of sneakers, and one pair of
> winter boots.

Well, that seems fine. I have at least pairs at any given time in
different states of deterioration. Two pairs tend to be work boots.
The real waste is buying ones that just sit. This could be extended to
any impulse buying habit.

E.A.

http://enough_already.tripod.com/

Can one really be a productive member of a consumptive society?

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Oct 21 2008 9:16 pm
From: Enough Already

On Oct 19, 12:41 pm, lisa...@privacy.net wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Oct 2008 12:26:54 -0700 (PDT), in misc.consumers.frugal-living Enough
>
> Already <enough_alre...@lycos.com> wrote:
>
> >Women could get by with half the number of shoes, but I'll leave that
> >one alone! Obviously, this is a partial list.
>
> uh you mean my ex boyfriend...
>
> use a menstrual keeper! saves money and does not generate stinky trash. great
> for backpacking..

Hadn't heard of that before. Good concept if the seal won't break at
inopportune times.

E.A.

http://enough_already.tripod.com/

Earth to human race: drop some of your needs!

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Oct 21 2008 9:43 pm
From: lisajoe@privacy.net

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:16:56 -0700 (PDT), in misc.consumers.frugal-living Enough
Already <enough_already@lycos.com> wrote:

>On Oct 19, 12:41 pm, lisa...@privacy.net wrote:
>> On Sun, 19 Oct 2008 12:26:54 -0700 (PDT), in misc.consumers.frugal-living Enough
>>
>> Already <enough_alre...@lycos.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Women could get by with half the number of shoes, but I'll leave that
>> >one alone! Obviously, this is a partial list.
>>
>> uh you mean my ex boyfriend...
>>
>> use a menstrual keeper! saves money and does not generate stinky trash. great
>> for backpacking..
>
>Hadn't heard of that before. Good concept if the seal won't break at
>inopportune times.
>
>E.A.
>
>http://enough_already.tripod.com/
>
>Earth to human race: drop some of your needs!

the seal does not break until it is full but even then it just leaks a bit. a
pad can always br worn with it if you are unsure.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: shoe soles
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5686a6ae36818499?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Oct 21 2008 6:59 pm
From: E Z Peaces

Footwear often has a tread that might provide better traction in mud but
also brings dirt into a house. I'm much more concerned with traction on
wet wooden steps or a wet garage floor of sealed concrete. I've owned
shoes and boots that had aggressive treads but were dangerous on wet
surfaces. Tires have ratings for traction on wet roads. Why don't shoe
soles have similar ratings?

Static electricity is another problem. Polyurethane soles are popular,
but without an additive, polyurethane is such a good insulator that the
wearer may get static shocks. I would certainly avoid such shoes when
buying gasoline. Why don't shoe soles have static-drain ratings?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Scandalous video reason Divorce Madonna and Ricchi - risk installing a
trojan
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/08a44f156119fe49?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Oct 21 2008 10:41 pm
From: "Robert Miles"

<krystinacarle@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d91be5df-1877-4a24-acd0-a583e8ae5319@64g2000hsu.googlegroups.com...
> http://www.madonascandal.byethost31.con Madonna page featuring
> exclusive Madonna videos, Madonna photos, and Madonna news,Madonna
> videos, Madonna news, Madonna photos, Madonna videos, Madonna gossip.
> Scandalous video reason end-marriage Madonna and Ricchi
.
If you went to that web site, it's a good idea to run whatever antispyware
program(s)
you have on your computer as soon as you can. See here for why:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlob_trojan

Unlike antivirus programs, you can safely have more than one antispyware
program on your computer. I've been using free versions of all three of
these for some time:

http://www.lavasoft.com/single/trialpay.php

http://www.safer-networking.org/en/spybotsd/index.html

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/defender/default.mspx

Caution - when some of these delete cookies, you may have to enter
passwords for some of your accounts again. Also, some trojans and other
spyware can direct your attempts to visit a web page to the wrong site, so
if you need to install one of these after viewing that web site, it's a good
to
download on some machine where you haven't done this, then transfer it
to your first machine before installing it.

By the way, when quoting that website's name, I changed it just enough to
insure that you can't reach it from my quote.

==============================================================================

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Frugal Living

Blog Archive

Wednesday, October 22, 2008

23 new messages in 9 topics - digest

20 new messages in 10 topics - digest