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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/2d57e5f41e829c93?hl=en
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TOPIC: There is no "right" to health care, says BigMed - only the "right" to
profit
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/e14cb160c2e4a0dd?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 17 2009 1:27 am
From: Michael Coburn

On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 09:56:05 -0700, Wilson Woods wrote:

> Michael Coburn, a looter, wrote:
>> On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 10:52:12 -0500, John Galt wrote:
>>
>>> Wilson Woods wrote:
>>>> freeisbest, a looter, wrote:
>>>>> On Oct 15, 10:25 am, K <Kvisi...@live.con> wrote:
>>>>>> tmclone, a looter, wrote:
>>>>>>> On Oct 15, 12:17 am, Coffee's For Closers <Usenet2...@THE-DOMAIN-
>>>>>>> IN.SIG> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In article <bcedb7bc-0004-40dc-9480-
>>>>>>>> 088c38e95...@z34g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>>>> tmcl...@searchmachine.com says...
>>>>>>>>> That the USA doesn't have universal, free healthcare for all,
>>>>>>>>> funded by taxes is shameful. We are supposedly the "greatest
>>>>>>>>> country on earth" yet we can't provide healthcare to all our
>>>>>>>>> citizens. We rank behind Cuba on healthcare. Pathetic. The idea
>>>>>>>>> of "for profit" healthcare is insane. It ought to be illegal.
>>>>>>>> You think that it is wrong to make money by providing healthcare?
>>>>>>>> So does that mean that doctors, nurses, etc, shouldn't be paid,
>>>>>>>> since that involves personally profiting from providing
>>>>>>>> healthcare?
>>>>>>> You're an idiot. The "profit" isn't the money being paid to the
>>>>>>> medical providers for the actual care.
>>>>>> Of course a very large part of it is. The pharmaceutical companies
>>>>>> make profits. The manufacturers of MRI and CT machines make
>>>>>> profits.
>>>>>> The blood labs and other diagnostic test centers make profits.
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> investor-owned hospital chains are making profits. And of course
>>>>>> the doctors, and many nurses, are very well paid.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's the "cost" of the care.
>>>>>> It's cost to someone, and revenue to those who receive it, and in
>>>>>> that revenue is profit for those who run their businesses well.
>>>>>>
>>>>> > > The "profit" is the billions of $ the insurance companies make.
>>>>>>> At least 30% of our healthcare $ goes right into the pockets
>>>>> > > of the insurance companies.
>>>>>> I keep hearing that figure tossed around carelessly by slovenly
>>>>>> weak thinkers like you, and I can never get anyone to give a
>>>>>> citation for it.
>>>>> -snip-
>>>>>
>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> You keep hearing that figure, but no one knows the truth but
>>>>> you.
>>>> I never said that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> If everyone but you is a slovenly weak thinker,
>>>> No, but the whiny mentally disturbed looter 'tmclone' certain is a
>>>> weak thinker.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> consider doing the
>>>>> research yourself instead of trying to profit from someone else's
>>>>> time and effort.
>>>> I requested people who toss this figure around substantiated it.
>>>> They don't, probably because they can't - they're merely repeating an
>>>> "everybody knows" bit of folk wisdom.
>>> Right. All anyone has to do is look at the insurer's financial
>>> statements and they'd know it's bullshit.
>>>
>>> Of course, you have to be able to READ a financial statement........
>>>
>>> The other day, that Reid character who runs the Senate said that there
>>> was no point in pushing tort reform because tort would only save 56B
>>> of the 2T dollar cost of health care reform.
>>>
>>> (Let's put aside the fact that the 2T is a 20 year number, while the
>>> 56B is per year, making it one of the larger whoppers I've heard in
>>> some time.)
>>>
>>> Here are the profit figures from the five largest insurers in the US,
>>> taken directly from their 08 financial reports:
>>>
>>> Wellpoint: 2.5 billion
>>> Humana: 657M
>>> Cigna: 292M
>>> Aetna: 1.3B (Aetna also has other lines of business) UnitedHealth: 3B
>>>
>>> So, the the above five insurers had total net profits of a bit less
>>> than 9B, which is only 16% of the number that Reid just said was too
>>> small to worry about compared to the total cost of the reform package.
>>>
>>> Or if you prefer, wiping out the profits of the above insurers pays
>>> .45% of the cost of health reform.
>>>
>>> JG
>>
>> This seems to be an endemic problem for the "private insurance"
>> supporters. There simply is no reason, no advantage, in allowing the
>> pursuit of profits or massive salaries and bonuses in the medical
>> insurance field. The statistics on health are what they are and the
>> cost of care are outside the control of the independent companies. In
>> other forms of business operations the services are very much dependent
>> upon the _desire_ of the consumer and the supply of goods can be
>> accessed anywhere in the world. In that case the business profits from
>> finding the best supply and by "marketing" the stuff and by proper
>> organization and all provides profits for the business while benefiting
>> the consumer. And in other forms of insurance there is a huge array of
>> values being insured. All homes and cars are different. In the case
>> of health insurance all lives are equally valuable and the statistics
>> are what they are and the costs in any given area are what they are.
>> Any profit in a health insurance company (or any looting by the people
>> within the organization) is accomplished by cheating the consumers or
>> cheating the policy holders because there is no room for innovation in
>> the health insurance system itself. The system is mathematically
>> certain.
>
> What a lot of word salad that was. The words are English words, but
> it's scarcely English.
>
> Try this, dummy. Leave every other aspect of the current provision of
> medical care alone, but ban the insurance companies. Would the result
> be more efficient, less efficient or have the same efficiency as the
> system today? The answer is obvious.
>
> You aren't /really/ making a case against the existence of profit-making
> health insurance companies, and you know it. No, what you are targeting
> by proxy is the system of people having to bear personal responsibility
> for paying for the health care they receive. Sorry, but that's the
> system we have, and the principle behind it - those who consume bear the
> responsibility for paying for their consumption - is a good and just
> principle.
>
> You'll never get there, looter - you just won't be able to show that the
> health insurance companies aren't earning their profit. If they
> weren't, then there would be no incentive for anyone to buy their
> services.

You are a lying sack of shit. That is never going to change.

I think most intelligent people can see that if the insurance system is
totally transparent and fraud and waste are well controlled then that is
all that can actually be done. Profit simply adds to cost while
providing no benefit. In other endeavors that is not true as I stated
before. The entrepreneur has many different opportunities to improve
cost of goods and efficiency. But the health care sector isn't like
that. Both supply and demand are geographically rooted and very
inelastic. And the efficiency of current, government administered
systems like Medicare, Social Security, and the VA tell us that the
government can, in fact, be very efficient. The marketing and profit
seeking of private health insurance companies imposes costs with _NO_
derived benefits.

--
"Those are my opinions and you can't have em" -- Bart Simpson

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 17 2009 1:27 am
From: Michael Coburn

On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 09:24:49 -0700, Wilson Woods wrote:

> Michael Coburn wrote:
>> On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 10:52:12 -0500, John Galt wrote:
>>
>>> Wilson Woods wrote:
>>>> freeisbest wrote:
>>>>> On Oct 15, 10:25 am, K <Kvisi...@live.con> wrote:
>>>>>> tmclone, a looter, wrote:
>>>>>>> On Oct 15, 12:17 am, Coffee's For Closers <Usenet2...@THE-DOMAIN-
>>>>>>> IN.SIG> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In article <bcedb7bc-0004-40dc-9480-
>>>>>>>> 088c38e95...@z34g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>>>> tmcl...@searchmachine.com says...
>>>>>>>>> That the USA doesn't have universal, free healthcare for all,
>>>>>>>>> funded by taxes is shameful. We are supposedly the "greatest
>>>>>>>>> country on earth" yet we can't provide healthcare to all our
>>>>>>>>> citizens. We rank behind Cuba on healthcare. Pathetic. The idea
>>>>>>>>> of "for profit" healthcare is insane. It ought to be illegal.
>>>>>>>> You think that it is wrong to make money by providing healthcare?
>>>>>>>> So does that mean that doctors, nurses, etc, shouldn't be paid,
>>>>>>>> since that involves personally profiting from providing
>>>>>>>> healthcare?
>>>>>>> You're an idiot. The "profit" isn't the money being paid to the
>>>>>>> medical providers for the actual care.
>>>>>> Of course a very large part of it is. The pharmaceutical companies
>>>>>> make profits. The manufacturers of MRI and CT machines make
>>>>>> profits.
>>>>>> The blood labs and other diagnostic test centers make profits.
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> investor-owned hospital chains are making profits. And of course
>>>>>> the doctors, and many nurses, are very well paid.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's the "cost" of the care.
>>>>>> It's cost to someone, and revenue to those who receive it, and in
>>>>>> that revenue is profit for those who run their businesses well.
>>>>>>
>>>>> > > The "profit" is the billions of $ the insurance companies make.
>>>>>>> At least 30% of our healthcare $ goes right into the pockets
>>>>> > > of the insurance companies.
>>>>>> I keep hearing that figure tossed around carelessly by slovenly
>>>>>> weak thinkers like you, and I can never get anyone to give a
>>>>>> citation for it.
>>>>> -snip-
>>>>>
>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> You keep hearing that figure, but no one knows the truth but
>>>>> you.
>>>> I never said that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> If everyone but you is a slovenly weak thinker,
>>>> No, but the whiny mentally disturbed looter 'tmclone' certain is a
>>>> weak thinker.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> consider doing the
>>>>> research yourself instead of trying to profit from someone else's
>>>>> time and effort.
>>>> I requested people who toss this figure around substantiated it.
>>>> They don't, probably because they can't - they're merely repeating an
>>>> "everybody knows" bit of folk wisdom.
>>> Right. All anyone has to do is look at the insurer's financial
>>> statements and they'd know it's bullshit.
>>>
>>> Of course, you have to be able to READ a financial statement........
>>>
>>> The other day, that Reid character who runs the Senate said that there
>>> was no point in pushing tort reform because tort would only save 56B
>>> of the 2T dollar cost of health care reform.
>>>
>>> (Let's put aside the fact that the 2T is a 20 year number, while the
>>> 56B is per year, making it one of the larger whoppers I've heard in
>>> some time.)
>>>
>>> Here are the profit figures from the five largest insurers in the US,
>>> taken directly from their 08 financial reports:
>>>
>>> Wellpoint: 2.5 billion
>>> Humana: 657M
>>> Cigna: 292M
>>> Aetna: 1.3B (Aetna also has other lines of business) UnitedHealth: 3B
>>>
>>> So, the the above five insurers had total net profits of a bit less
>>> than 9B, which is only 16% of the number that Reid just said was too
>>> small to worry about compared to the total cost of the reform package.
>>>
>>> Or if you prefer, wiping out the profits of the above insurers pays
>>> .45% of the cost of health reform.
>>>
>>> JG
>>
>> This seems to be an endemic problem for the "private insurance"
>> supporters. There simply is no reason, no advantage, in allowing the
>> pursuit of profits or massive salaries and bonuses in the medical
>> insurance field.
>
> You keep asserting that, but it's clearly a normative belief based on
> nothing more than personal animus. There's absolutely *no* economic
> theory behind the belief - just your simplistic and utterly ideological
> division of the world into good guys and bad guys.

I think most intelligent people can see that if the insurance system is
totally transparent and fraud and waste are well controlled then that is
all that can actually be done. Profit simply adds to cost while
providing no benefit. In other endeavors that is not true as I stated
above. The entrepreneur has many different opportunities to improve cost
of goods and efficiency. BUt the health care sector isn't like that.
Both supply and demand are geographically rooted and very inelastic. And
the efficiency of current, government administered systems like Medicare,
Social Security, and the VA tell us that the government can, in fact, be
very efficient. The marketing and profit seeking of private health
insurance companies imposes costs with _NO_ derived benefits.

--
"Those are my opinions and you can't have em" -- Bart Simpson

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 17 2009 7:06 am
From: Wilson Woods

Michael Coburn wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 09:24:49 -0700, Wilson Woods wrote:
>
>> Michael Coburn wrote:
>>> On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 10:52:12 -0500, John Galt wrote:
>>>
>>>> Wilson Woods wrote:
>>>>> freeisbest wrote:
>>>>>> On Oct 15, 10:25 am, K <Kvisi...@live.con> wrote:
>>>>>>> tmclone, a looter, wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Oct 15, 12:17 am, Coffee's For Closers <Usenet2...@THE-DOMAIN-
>>>>>>>> IN.SIG> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In article <bcedb7bc-0004-40dc-9480-
>>>>>>>>> 088c38e95...@z34g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>>>>> tmcl...@searchmachine.com says...
>>>>>>>>>> That the USA doesn't have universal, free healthcare for all,
>>>>>>>>>> funded by taxes is shameful. We are supposedly the "greatest
>>>>>>>>>> country on earth" yet we can't provide healthcare to all our
>>>>>>>>>> citizens. We rank behind Cuba on healthcare. Pathetic. The idea
>>>>>>>>>> of "for profit" healthcare is insane. It ought to be illegal.
>>>>>>>>> You think that it is wrong to make money by providing healthcare?
>>>>>>>>> So does that mean that doctors, nurses, etc, shouldn't be paid,
>>>>>>>>> since that involves personally profiting from providing
>>>>>>>>> healthcare?
>>>>>>>> You're an idiot. The "profit" isn't the money being paid to the
>>>>>>>> medical providers for the actual care.
>>>>>>> Of course a very large part of it is. The pharmaceutical companies
>>>>>>> make profits. The manufacturers of MRI and CT machines make
>>>>>>> profits.
>>>>>>> The blood labs and other diagnostic test centers make profits.
>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>> investor-owned hospital chains are making profits. And of course
>>>>>>> the doctors, and many nurses, are very well paid.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's the "cost" of the care.
>>>>>>> It's cost to someone, and revenue to those who receive it, and in
>>>>>>> that revenue is profit for those who run their businesses well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> > > The "profit" is the billions of $ the insurance companies make.
>>>>>>>> At least 30% of our healthcare $ goes right into the pockets
>>>>>> > > of the insurance companies.
>>>>>>> I keep hearing that figure tossed around carelessly by slovenly
>>>>>>> weak thinkers like you, and I can never get anyone to give a
>>>>>>> citation for it.
>>>>>> -snip-
>>>>>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> You keep hearing that figure, but no one knows the truth but
>>>>>> you.
>>>>> I never said that.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> If everyone but you is a slovenly weak thinker,
>>>>> No, but the whiny mentally disturbed looter 'tmclone' certain is a
>>>>> weak thinker.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> consider doing the
>>>>>> research yourself instead of trying to profit from someone else's
>>>>>> time and effort.
>>>>> I requested people who toss this figure around substantiated it.
>>>>> They don't, probably because they can't - they're merely repeating an
>>>>> "everybody knows" bit of folk wisdom.
>>>> Right. All anyone has to do is look at the insurer's financial
>>>> statements and they'd know it's bullshit.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, you have to be able to READ a financial statement........
>>>>
>>>> The other day, that Reid character who runs the Senate said that there
>>>> was no point in pushing tort reform because tort would only save 56B
>>>> of the 2T dollar cost of health care reform.
>>>>
>>>> (Let's put aside the fact that the 2T is a 20 year number, while the
>>>> 56B is per year, making it one of the larger whoppers I've heard in
>>>> some time.)
>>>>
>>>> Here are the profit figures from the five largest insurers in the US,
>>>> taken directly from their 08 financial reports:
>>>>
>>>> Wellpoint: 2.5 billion
>>>> Humana: 657M
>>>> Cigna: 292M
>>>> Aetna: 1.3B (Aetna also has other lines of business) UnitedHealth: 3B
>>>>
>>>> So, the the above five insurers had total net profits of a bit less
>>>> than 9B, which is only 16% of the number that Reid just said was too
>>>> small to worry about compared to the total cost of the reform package.
>>>>
>>>> Or if you prefer, wiping out the profits of the above insurers pays
>>>> .45% of the cost of health reform.
>>>>
>>>> JG
>>> This seems to be an endemic problem for the "private insurance"
>>> supporters. There simply is no reason, no advantage, in allowing the
>>> pursuit of profits or massive salaries and bonuses in the medical
>>> insurance field.
>> You keep asserting that, but it's clearly a normative belief based on
>> nothing more than personal animus. There's absolutely *no* economic
>> theory behind the belief - just your simplistic and utterly ideological
>> division of the world into good guys and bad guys.
>
> I think most intelligent people can see that if the insurance system is
> totally transparent and fraud and waste are well controlled then that is
> all that can actually be done. Profit simply adds to cost while
> providing no benefit.

False. Profit is the residue for efficiently organizing the risk
pooling, and for carrying out the administration function, of a system
in which people are privately responsible for paying for the medical
care they receive, but don't wish to face catastrophic losses.

In the private responsibility system we have, insurance is efficient,
and profit is the earning for providing that efficiency.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 17 2009 7:08 am
From: Wilson Woods

Michael Coburn wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 09:56:05 -0700, Wilson Woods wrote:
>
>> Michael Coburn, a looter, wrote:
>>> On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 10:52:12 -0500, John Galt wrote:
>>>
>>>> Wilson Woods wrote:
>>>>> freeisbest, a looter, wrote:
>>>>>> On Oct 15, 10:25 am, K <Kvisi...@live.con> wrote:
>>>>>>> tmclone, a looter, wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Oct 15, 12:17 am, Coffee's For Closers <Usenet2...@THE-DOMAIN-
>>>>>>>> IN.SIG> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In article <bcedb7bc-0004-40dc-9480-
>>>>>>>>> 088c38e95...@z34g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>>>>> tmcl...@searchmachine.com says...
>>>>>>>>>> That the USA doesn't have universal, free healthcare for all,
>>>>>>>>>> funded by taxes is shameful. We are supposedly the "greatest
>>>>>>>>>> country on earth" yet we can't provide healthcare to all our
>>>>>>>>>> citizens. We rank behind Cuba on healthcare. Pathetic. The idea
>>>>>>>>>> of "for profit" healthcare is insane. It ought to be illegal.
>>>>>>>>> You think that it is wrong to make money by providing healthcare?
>>>>>>>>> So does that mean that doctors, nurses, etc, shouldn't be paid,
>>>>>>>>> since that involves personally profiting from providing
>>>>>>>>> healthcare?
>>>>>>>> You're an idiot. The "profit" isn't the money being paid to the
>>>>>>>> medical providers for the actual care.
>>>>>>> Of course a very large part of it is. The pharmaceutical companies
>>>>>>> make profits. The manufacturers of MRI and CT machines make
>>>>>>> profits.
>>>>>>> The blood labs and other diagnostic test centers make profits.
>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>> investor-owned hospital chains are making profits. And of course
>>>>>>> the doctors, and many nurses, are very well paid.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's the "cost" of the care.
>>>>>>> It's cost to someone, and revenue to those who receive it, and in
>>>>>>> that revenue is profit for those who run their businesses well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> > > The "profit" is the billions of $ the insurance companies make.
>>>>>>>> At least 30% of our healthcare $ goes right into the pockets
>>>>>> > > of the insurance companies.
>>>>>>> I keep hearing that figure tossed around carelessly by slovenly
>>>>>>> weak thinkers like you, and I can never get anyone to give a
>>>>>>> citation for it.
>>>>>> -snip-
>>>>>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> You keep hearing that figure, but no one knows the truth but
>>>>>> you.
>>>>> I never said that.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> If everyone but you is a slovenly weak thinker,
>>>>> No, but the whiny mentally disturbed looter 'tmclone' certain is a
>>>>> weak thinker.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> consider doing the
>>>>>> research yourself instead of trying to profit from someone else's
>>>>>> time and effort.
>>>>> I requested people who toss this figure around substantiated it.
>>>>> They don't, probably because they can't - they're merely repeating an
>>>>> "everybody knows" bit of folk wisdom.
>>>> Right. All anyone has to do is look at the insurer's financial
>>>> statements and they'd know it's bullshit.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, you have to be able to READ a financial statement........
>>>>
>>>> The other day, that Reid character who runs the Senate said that there
>>>> was no point in pushing tort reform because tort would only save 56B
>>>> of the 2T dollar cost of health care reform.
>>>>
>>>> (Let's put aside the fact that the 2T is a 20 year number, while the
>>>> 56B is per year, making it one of the larger whoppers I've heard in
>>>> some time.)
>>>>
>>>> Here are the profit figures from the five largest insurers in the US,
>>>> taken directly from their 08 financial reports:
>>>>
>>>> Wellpoint: 2.5 billion
>>>> Humana: 657M
>>>> Cigna: 292M
>>>> Aetna: 1.3B (Aetna also has other lines of business) UnitedHealth: 3B
>>>>
>>>> So, the the above five insurers had total net profits of a bit less
>>>> than 9B, which is only 16% of the number that Reid just said was too
>>>> small to worry about compared to the total cost of the reform package.
>>>>
>>>> Or if you prefer, wiping out the profits of the above insurers pays
>>>> .45% of the cost of health reform.
>>>>
>>>> JG
>>> This seems to be an endemic problem for the "private insurance"
>>> supporters. There simply is no reason, no advantage, in allowing the
>>> pursuit of profits or massive salaries and bonuses in the medical
>>> insurance field. The statistics on health are what they are and the
>>> cost of care are outside the control of the independent companies. In
>>> other forms of business operations the services are very much dependent
>>> upon the _desire_ of the consumer and the supply of goods can be
>>> accessed anywhere in the world. In that case the business profits from
>>> finding the best supply and by "marketing" the stuff and by proper
>>> organization and all provides profits for the business while benefiting
>>> the consumer. And in other forms of insurance there is a huge array of
>>> values being insured. All homes and cars are different. In the case
>>> of health insurance all lives are equally valuable and the statistics
>>> are what they are and the costs in any given area are what they are.
>>> Any profit in a health insurance company (or any looting by the people
>>> within the organization) is accomplished by cheating the consumers or
>>> cheating the policy holders because there is no room for innovation in
>>> the health insurance system itself. The system is mathematically
>>> certain.
>> What a lot of word salad that was. The words are English words, but
>> it's scarcely English.
>>
>> Try this, dummy. Leave every other aspect of the current provision of
>> medical care alone, but ban the insurance companies. Would the result
>> be more efficient, less efficient or have the same efficiency as the
>> system today? The answer is obvious.
>>
>> You aren't /really/ making a case against the existence of profit-making
>> health insurance companies, and you know it. No, what you are targeting
>> by proxy is the system of people having to bear personal responsibility
>> for paying for the health care they receive. Sorry, but that's the
>> system we have, and the principle behind it - those who consume bear the
>> responsibility for paying for their consumption - is a good and just
>> principle.
>>
>> You'll never get there, looter - you just won't be able to show that the
>> health insurance companies aren't earning their profit. If they
>> weren't, then there would be no incentive for anyone to buy their
>> services.
>
> You are a lying sack of shit.

That's false.

> I think most intelligent people can see that [repetitious wheeze snipped]

Insurance company profit is the residue for efficiently organizing the
risk pooling, and for carrying out the administration function, of a
system in which people are privately responsible for paying for the
medical care they receive, but don't wish to face catastrophic losses.

In the private responsibility system we have, insurance is efficient,
and profit is the earning for providing that efficiency.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 17 2009 10:15 am
From: "Rod Speed"

JohnDoe@BadISP.org wrote:
> Michael Coburn <mikcob@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 00:50:26 -0700, Wilson Woods wrote:
>>
>>> Michael Coburn, a looter, wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 22:47:51 -0700, Wilson Woods wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Michael Coburn, a looter, wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 01:57:04 -0700, Wilson Woods wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Michael Coburn, a looter, wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 14 Oct 2009 21:17:23 -0700, Coffee's For Closers wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>
>> But that was not at issue and was not the question. You were asked
>> to tell us how this mundane and mathematically certain task can be
>> "improved" by a profit motive over the result that would be achieved
>> in a totally transparent government run system. There may well be
>> problems with a government run system. But that isn't the question
>> either. There seems to be a religious tenet here that the
>> possibility of profits will somehow improve the value to the
>> consumer. That is true in most other business endeavors. But it
>> does not appear to be true in a statistically certain, inelastically
>> demanded, health insurance sector that has no control over the
>> actual cost of the services. So there must be something I am
>> missing here. And I am trying to get the supporters of this private
>> insurance thing to tell us what it is.
>
> I hate to sound like I'm supporting the forces of reaction here but
> there is a very important function performed by the insurance
> companies and that's control over the cost of services. Not only is
> this achieved by denying coverage to patients but also by squeezing
> the MD's and other nannies until they squeak. If you have a look at
> what the insurance company pays versus what the provider bills you'll
> see that the difference is enormous. I recently had a series of blood
> tests: the lab billed over $1000, the insurance company paid $110.
> About a 90% reduction. Same with MD's costs: my PcP charges $200 if
> you walk in off the street, my insurance pays $40. Imagine what would
> happen without the insurance company.

No reason why the alternative cant do the same thing.

In fact the Japanese system has the govt set the prices that can be
charged and that produces $10 per night for a stay in hospital if you are
happy with a 4 bed ward, and $90 per night if you want a private room.

> As to the denying coverage to patients, let's not be completely
> gullible here. Lots of the individual items denied are simply
> unnecessary procedures the benefit of which flows to the MD's and
> their cronies in hospitals and other suppliers. Of course unless you
> examine each case at the level of detail the insurance company does,
> you're going to have a hard time justifying or disputing the denial.
> Emotional hand-wringing of the type that goes on these days seems out
> of place, especially when it's done by people who have no idea of the
> cases involved or even if they exist. And if you want to find out the
> details (i.e. provable facts) the proponents of the big bad insurance
> company perspective most frequently drop back to patient privacy as
> the reason they can't prove the argument. It's something like the "men
> beat up their wives more after the super bowl" argument that turned
> out to be pure fabrication.

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TOPIC: Eggplant going bad?
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== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 17 2009 5:17 am
From: noel888

My wife had setup salting sliced eggplants for today's meal. She had
put them in a colander with salt to get rid of the bitterness. The
problem? She left them out on the kitchen counter overnight. I said to
her that it has to be thrown out and she said that the salt has
preserved them...now we are debating. Any suggestions?

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 17 2009 7:10 am
From: "Dave"

"noel888" <harri85274@aol.com> wrote in message
news:dbb1e50e-dcbd-4a9b-b933-60c0b399a5d1@g19g2000yqo.googlegroups.com...
> My wife had setup salting sliced eggplants for today's meal. She had
> put them in a colander with salt to get rid of the bitterness. The
> problem? She left them out on the kitchen counter overnight. I said to
> her that it has to be thrown out and she said that the salt has
> preserved them...now we are debating. Any suggestions?

If in doubt, throw it out.

It's *probably* OK, even without the salt.

But...if in doubt, throw it out. -Dave

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 17 2009 7:46 am
From: gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston)

In article <dbb1e50e-dcbd-4a9b-b933-60c0b399a5d1@g19g2000yqo.googlegroups.com>,
noel888 <harri85274@aol.com> wrote:
>My wife had setup salting sliced eggplants for today's meal. She had
>put them in a colander with salt to get rid of the bitterness. The
>problem? She left them out on the kitchen counter overnight. I said to
>her that it has to be thrown out and she said that the salt has
>preserved them...now we are debating. Any suggestions?

Raw eggplant isn't going to spoil overnight, it may discolor a bit. The
salt probably won't make a significant difference, unless she really
piled it on.

I'd have no reservations about eating it.

Gary

--
Gary Heston gheston@hiwaay.net http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/
"Where large, expensive pieces of exotic woods are converted to valueless,
hard to dispose of sawdust, chips and scraps." Charlie B.s' definition of
woodworking.

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 17 2009 5:23 am
From: "Mr.Kandawala"

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 17 2009 7:52 am
From: JRStern

On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 02:48:44 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv>
wrote:

>blythe b <mbowman155@gmail.com> wrote in news:8e13a836-cfb6-4fb4-a6c0-
>24e9291e3b81@l2g2000yqd.googlegroups.com:
>
>> http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/31/honda.recall/index.html
>
>
>The USA remains the only country in the world that has a wacky legal
>requirement that bombs be installed in car's interior, aimed directly at
>the occupants. Then they require that big yellow labels be stuck
>everywhere, warning you that the bombs will kill your kids so make sure you
>put the little dears where the bombs can't reach them. Sheesh.

what he said

>For those of you in Canada, bomb disablement is quite legal, and is
>available at any garage for about $40 (don't know if that's per bomb or an
>all-in price).

must be all those conscientious objectors we sent them! :)

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http://www.trafficswarm.com/go.cgi?968901

==============================================================================
TOPIC: There Is Always A Need To Advertise For Free… You Are Lucky
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/6fd03a6df0531237?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 17 2009 8:55 am
From: Marcos Villalba

Check these sites, the power bar system, easy, fun and free… Let them
take your advertisement to a lot of people. But that's not all, also
you are going to get a profit.

Do not dare to miss this opportunity:

http://5201.powerbarclub.com

http://invite5.com/08342I

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Take A Look At What This Guy Is Doing... Amazing Make Money Online Club
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/fa571f70ca6c4543?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 17 2009 8:55 am
From: Marcos Villalba

This internet marketer has the best affiliate program with the biggest
and complete online course I've ever seen... To check it, pls go to
next link:

www.MadavicuMoneyMakers.com

This is totaly overwhelmed... just blow my mind.

Pls take this oportunity and sign in to:

www.MadavicuMoneyMakers.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Free Membership To Online Income. Money Making System
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/4890dfb7a7b151af?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 17 2009 8:56 am
From: Marcos Villalba

This is an opportunity to take... the Team work Revolution is a free
membership system that will be launched on oct. 7th, so we must take
this opportunity to sign up
right now and make other to sing up as well (friends, family, anyone),
here is the link to sign up

http://www.twrpowersystem.com/aff/uid/madavicu_1

Go ahead, don't blow up this opportunity, the team is waiting for you

http://www.twrpowersystem.com/aff/uid/madavicu_1

==============================================================================
TOPIC: My nephew wrote me for the first time!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/0c3321a9b4b163ea?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 17 2009 9:13 am
From: "sr"

I was brought up with strong family convictions, it can be crippling.
But, I'm (guilt free,)
Ofcourse you have to have a conscience to feel "guilt"
====Another control devise used in my generation "guilt" along with a doze
of
fear.
I've shed the strings that binded me with my father's death, no more
obligations!
===============each person for themself, is my new moto===========
=====================still looking for unrestricted land=away from this
northern state========
any help is appreciated.

"Marsha" <mas@xeb.net> wrote in message news:hbb353$714$2@news.datemas.de...
> sr wrote:
>> 14 years of giving to family and no thank yous was the trigger.
>> When their great grandfather was in the dying process for 6 months, not a
>> single card nor call from
>> the kids, was another trigger.
>
> What took you so long? You're an optimist, right?
>
> Marsha

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Comparison of Unlimited/High Volume Prepaid Wireless Phone Plans Added
to the Prepaid Wireless Web Site
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/77ebc5c910c3322c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Oct 17 2009 9:32 am
From: SMS

Larry wrote:
> SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in news:4ad3c27c$0$1638
> $742ec2ed@news.sonic.net:
>
>> http://prepaiduswireless.com/
>
> http://nordicgroup.us/prepaid/pageplus.html
> Great information on how to get pageplus for 5.3c/minute and make sure your
> account can never be dumped, just because you forgot to add minutes....

Note that "http://nordicgroup.us/prepaid/pageplus.html" is a sub-page of
"http://prepaiduswireless.com/".

I added a section at the top of the PagePlus page with the pros and cons
of PagePlus which I list here:

Pros
----

* Per minute cost is the lowest of any prepaid carrier, as low as 5.3�.

* Minimum monthly cost, for low volume users, is as low as $2.30 per
month. Only T-Mobile has a lower minimum monthly cost (once you become
"Gold" on T-Mobile prepaid, by spending $100, future refills (including
the $10 refill) last 365 days).

* Coverage is the best of any prepaid carrier (equal to the coverage on
Verizon's own prepaid service); far better coverage than AT&T, T-Mobile,
Virgin, Boost, or Tracfone GSM.

* Coverage is better than all postpaid carriers other than Verizon.

* No taxes, E-911 fees, or garbage fees (there is a 50� per month
service charge).

* Expiration time of 120 days applies even to their lowest cost cards.

* Roaming off Verizon allowed, albeit at extra cost, so your phone will
work on any CDMA network in the U.S. (many prepaid carriers don't allow
roaming or they limit roaming).

* Online account management of multiple phone numbers from one PagePlus
log-in.

* Low cost unlimited plan (<$33/month) which includes voice, texts, and
20MB of data (3G if your phone supports it). Additional data cost $0.60/MB.

* Low cost high-volume plan (<$25/month) which includes 1200 voice
minutes, 1200 text or MMS messages, and 50MB of data (3G if your phone
supports it). Additional data cost $0.60/MB.

* 3G and 2G data is available for $1.20/MB (not cheap but the few other
carriers that offer 3G data at all charge much more for it).

* Low speed QNC data available at no cost. This is an unofficial feature
and is not supported by all handsets, and is not guaranteed to be
available forever. Press for a Google Search of PagePlus & QNC. QNC is
fine for text based e-mail, but is really too slow for web browsing.

* Low $5 start-up cost (actually it's possible to get started for free).

* Automatic refills available to protect against account expiration.

* Phone number porting available at no cost.

* Smart Phones are supported on all types of plans.

* Wide availability of low-cost handsets, both new and used.

* Verizon back-door numbers for voice mail access work with PagePlus.

* Verizon e-mail to text message work with PagePlus.

* Excellent, U.S. based, customer service.

* Retail dealers available in many areas.

Cons
----

* Roaming costs 59� per minute so it isn't a suitable carrier if you
spend a lot of time outside Verizon's network footprint.

* 50� per month service charge.

* The maximum period for automatic refills is 30 days so you can't have
it automatically add $10 every 120 days (there is a workaround though).

* If your account expires you lose your accumulated money, though
customer service has been known to restore all or part of it on a case
by case basis.

* No mobile to mobile free calls to or from Verizon's regular customers,
all calls are charged.

* No free off-peak calls, all calls are charged.

* No Blackberry server support.

* No high usage data plans.

* No official support for international roaming, though there have been
reports that it sometimes works in Canada and China (does not work in
Mexico).

* No subsidized or free handsets with contract or contract renewal.

* Automatic refills are at full retail price, you can't set up automatic
refills with refills purchased at a discount.

==============================================================================
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==============================================================================

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==============================================================================

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Google Groups: http://groups.google.com/?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 22 new messages in 12 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: There is no "right" to health care
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/e14cb160c2e4a0dd?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 16 2009 4:24 pm
From: Wilson Woods

Mrs Irish Mike wrote:
> On Oct 16, 1:31 pm, Wilson Woods <banm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>> The results are the same if he is in a penthouse suite at
>>> Cedar Sinae or if he is in a hut with a witchdoctor swinging a
>>> deadcat.
>> False.
>>
>>> Take out the profit motive and science can better determine
>>> the best course of treatment for each person.
>> False.
>
> So you have no arguement?

Yes, I have an argument.

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 16 2009 6:49 pm
From: Beam Me Up Scotty

Yet you feel the other way with research and Global Warming as you have
government pay for huge amounts of "research" that is supposed to be
independent...

Typical garbage.

If the government has the money for treatment, who's interest will the
doctors be serving..... Of course it will be the Governments interest.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 16 2009 8:06 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Mrs Irish Mike wrote:
> On Oct 16, 1:31 pm, Wilson Woods <banm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>> The results are the same if he is in a penthouse suite at
>>> Cedar Sinae or if he is in a hut with a witchdoctor swinging a
>>> deadcat.
>>
>> False.
>>
>>> Take out the profit motive and science can better determine
>>> the best course of treatment for each person.
>>
>> False.
>
> So you have no arguement? Just call people fat, stupid, fuckwit,
> wrong and false. You have no expertise. You have no facts.

You have no facts whatever yourself, just that bare faced lie
that no medical treatment makes any difference what so ever
to the amount of time before you die with pancreatic cancer.

> AND you have no arguement, just misdirected anger.

Corse you dont have that problem yourself, eh ?

> G'day sir, I said g'day.

Dont let the door hit you on the arse on the way out.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 16 2009 9:26 pm
From: JohnDoe@BadISP.org

Michael Coburn <mikcob@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 00:50:26 -0700, Wilson Woods wrote:
>
>> Michael Coburn, a looter, wrote:
>>> On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 22:47:51 -0700, Wilson Woods wrote:
>>>
>>>> Michael Coburn, a looter, wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 01:57:04 -0700, Wilson Woods wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael Coburn, a looter, wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 14 Oct 2009 21:17:23 -0700, Coffee's For Closers wrote:
>>>>>>>

>But that was not at issue and was not the question. You were asked to
>tell us how this mundane and mathematically certain task can be
>"improved" by a profit motive over the result that would be achieved in a
>totally transparent government run system. There may well be problems
>with a government run system. But that isn't the question either. There
>seems to be a religious tenet here that the possibility of profits will
>somehow improve the value to the consumer. That is true in most other
>business endeavors. But it does not appear to be true in a
>statistically certain, inelastically demanded, health insurance sector
>that has no control over the actual cost of the services. So there must
>be something I am missing here. And I am trying to get the supporters of
>this private insurance thing to tell us what it is.

I hate to sound like I'm supporting the forces of reaction here but
there is a very important function performed by the insurance
companies and that's control over the cost of services. Not only is
this achieved by denying coverage to patients but also by squeezing
the MD's and other nannies until they squeak. If you have a look at
what the insurance company pays versus what the provider bills you'll
see that the difference is enormous. I recently had a series of blood
tests: the lab billed over $1000, the insurance company paid $110.
About a 90% reduction. Same with MD's costs: my PcP charges $200 if
you walk in off the street, my insurance pays $40. Imagine what would
happen without the insurance company.

As to the denying coverage to patients, let's not be completely
gullible here. Lots of the individual items denied are simply
unnecessary procedures the benefit of which flows to the MD's and
their cronies in hospitals and other suppliers. Of course unless you
examine each case at the level of detail the insurance company does,
you're going to have a hard time justifying or disputing the denial.
Emotional hand-wringing of the type that goes on these days seems out
of place, especially when it's done by people who have no idea of the
cases involved or even if they exist. And if you want to find out the
details (i.e. provable facts) the proponents of the big bad insurance
company perspective most frequently drop back to patient privacy as
the reason they can't prove the argument. It's something like the "men
beat up their wives more after the super bowl" argument that turned
out to be pure fabrication.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 16 2009 9:33 pm
From: JohnDoe@BadISP.org

Wilson Woods <banmilk@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Coffee's For Closers wrote:
>> In article <2a1575e5-c18c-434d-ab16-
>> d415f5fe9520@l35g2000vba.googlegroups.com>,
>> tmclone@searchmachine.com says...
>>> On Oct 15, 12:17=A0am, Coffee's For Closers <Usenet2...@THE-DOMAIN-
>>> IN.SIG> wrote:
>>>> In article <bcedb7bc-0004-40dc-9480-
>>>> 088c38e95...@z34g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>,
>>>> tmcl...@searchmachine.com says...
>>>>

>As I've already elaborated, the distinction between "needs" and "wants"
>(or "*mere* wants", as the looters imply) is a false distinction with no
>operational meaning. People have wants, period: food, clothing, water,
>health care, entertainment, recreation, etc. But even if we temporarily
>accept the distinction for the sake of argument, then as you note,
>medical care is not even a pressing a "need" as food, yet the looters
>don't broadly advocate the government making "free" food available to
>people.

And to the other side of the argument: We do make "free food"
available to those who can't afford it (food stamps) and even provide
subsidies to those that provide food to all comers (free cheese & soup
kitchens). Further even if we didn't provide this free food there's no
one who needs (will not live without) food that costs more than
minimum wage. Much of health care is way beyond the resources of even
an average worker let alone a burger flipper.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Reverse Trick or Treat
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/b5180af01070d995?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 16 2009 4:46 pm
From: Azz Pizz

Mrs Irish Mike <wilma6116@gmail.com> wrote in news:db4a6167-a962-4c85-98ec-
fcb3b2e78228@i4g2000prm.googlegroups.com:

>
> I have been quit for 1 Year, 6 Months, 5 Days, 8 hours, 41 minutes and
> 43 seconds (553 days). I have saved $2,086.27 by not smoking 11,067
> cigarettes. I have saved 1 Month, 1 Week, 1 Day, 10 hours and 15
> minutes of my life. My Quit Date: 4/11/2008 7:32 AM

Great idea. Never smoked but this is a great way to encourage people to
quit.

--
Azz Pizz Institute
The OFFICIAL Verbal Diarrhea Think Tank (tm)
Washington, DC

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 16 2009 4:48 pm
From: Azz Pizz

"Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" <atlas-bugged@invalid.invalid> wrote in
news:atlas-bugged-FEED80.11380816102009@aries.ka.weretis.net:

> But I don't give candy
> until I get candy.

You're better off giving kids Atlas Shrugged copies. Nah, the sheer size
would scare them off from reading.

--
Azz Pizz Institute
The OFFICIAL Verbal Diarrhea Think Tank (tm)
Washington, DC

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 16 2009 5:41 pm
From: The Real Bev

Azz Pizz wrote:

> "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" <atlas-bugged@invalid.invalid> wrote in
> news:atlas-bugged-FEED80.11380816102009@aries.ka.weretis.net:
>
>> But I don't give candy
>> until I get candy.
>
> You're better off giving kids Atlas Shrugged copies. Nah, the sheer size
> would scare them off from reading.

Maybe there's a coloring book version...

--
Cheers, Bev
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Polish loan sharks: they loan you money and then skip town.

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 16 2009 9:02 pm
From: Balvenieman

"Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" <atlas-bugged@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>but I love chocolate, especially when it's free
If you're trading, what's the "free" part?

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 16 2009 11:00 pm
From: "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds"

In article
<p6GdncxXaZFXrkTXnZ2dnUVZ_qidnZ2d@earthl
ink.com>,
Balvenieman <balvenieman@invalid.net>
wrote:

> "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" <atlas-bugged@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> >but I love chocolate, especially when it's free
> If you're trading, what's the "free" part?

I don't give out chocolate

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 16 2009 11:02 pm
From: "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds"

In article
<p6GdncxXaZFXrkTXnZ2dnUVZ_qidnZ2d@earthl
ink.com>,
Balvenieman <balvenieman@invalid.net>
wrote:

> "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" <atlas-bugged@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> >but I love chocolate, especially when it's free
> If you're trading, what's the "free" part?

Candy to give out $5
Value of candy received $10

Looks on the kids faces...priceless

==============================================================================
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/3a27c0368660c5f3?hl=en
==============================================================================

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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 16 2009 5:26 pm
From: Marsha

Bill wrote:
> My 18 year old nephew wrote me a letter!
>
> This is the very first time he has done this. He has never before written to
> me, has never called me, nor has he ever written me a thank you note for the
> gifts I have given him at Christmas time...

It's time to stop sending him Christmas gifts, B-day gifts, etc. Bet
he'll notice. Also, what's wrong with his parents? Do they not tell
him that he needs to do this stuff, whether he wants to or not?

>
> In his "form letter", he is asking for a $500.00 donation for a sports
> program at his school!
>
> He does get right to the point about the money. Does not waste any ink by
> saying hello to me or asking how I am doing or telling me how he is doing.
>
> He will not get a cent from me!

Good for you.

>
> Maybe he will be offended and stop writing to me?
>

You can only hope.

Marsha

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 16 2009 5:29 pm
From: Marsha

sr wrote:
> 14 years of giving to family and no thank yous was the trigger.
> When their great grandfather was in the dying process for 6 months, not a
> single card nor call from
> the kids, was another trigger.

What took you so long? You're an optimist, right?

Marsha

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How to get rid of a roommate?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/a3fd1dedade4e5a6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 16 2009 5:33 pm
From: Marsha

Samatha Hill -- take out TRASH to reply wrote:
> « Jeem » wrote:
>>
>> Agreed. If there is no rental agreement or lease, she has no
>> obligation to allow the BF to live with her. She is doing this just of
>> her own free will. She had a romantic interest in the man and now she
>> does not. That does not obligate her to allow him to live in her home.
>> If they were renting an apartment or house and both names were on the
>> lease, that would be a different story.
>
> I know from personal experience that this is not true in California.
>
> Marsha (are you the same Marsha I know from SMT?),

Yep - Hi there, "Samantha"

you could call your
> sister's local police department and given them details and ask what her
> options are -- or have her call.

That's an option. She's supposed to see an attorney on Monday, but just
talking to the police would be less expensive. Thanks.

Marsha

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Ink Refunds
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/9ce07d61e44b7856?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 16 2009 7:36 pm
From: Shawn Hirn

In article
<d35edfda-baa9-4b20-8691-2ccf471a56b2@a31g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
Artys <lajolie@GMI.net> wrote:

> On Oct 14, 7:19 pm, Shawn Hirn <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <e1578744-fb49-48ea-a565-8ba7f881a...@k17g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> > Artys <lajo...@GMI.net> wrote:
> > > Hello group,
> >
> > > Can you tell me what chain stores offer free ink cartridge
> > > recycling? I just bought a new one from Office Depot, and the
> > > recycling must be mailed in by me, paying postage. I can't do much of
> > > that. I have several used ink cartridges sitting around.
> >
> > Try Staples. They will give you a store credit (I forget how much) for
> > each every printer cartridge you bring them.
>
> We don't have Staples where I live. Can you think of any others?

Not without having any clue where you live.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 16 2009 9:04 pm
From: Larry

SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in news:4ad3c27c$0$1638
$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net:

> http://prepaiduswireless.com/

http://nordicgroup.us/prepaid/pageplus.html
Great information on how to get pageplus for 5.3c/minute and make sure your
account can never be dumped, just because you forgot to add minutes....

Man that's cheap!

--
Larry

==============================================================================
TOPIC: REPLICA RADO WATCH 096,CHEAP RADO WATCH 096
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/ac5e4329b2973154?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 16 2009 11:15 pm
From: Alexandra dale

REPLICA RADO WATCH 096,CHEAP RADO WATCH 096

Click Here To Website : http://www.mysubmariner.com/RADO/RADO_WATCH_096-4839-491.html

RADO WATCH 096 Replica Information :
Brand : RADO http://www.mysubmariner.com/RADO-491-1-1.html
Price : 78.00$

The Same Replica Series :
http://www.mysubmariner.com/RADO/RADO_WATCH_001-2233-491.html

http://www.mysubmariner.com/RADO/RADO_WATCH_002-4790-491.html

http://www.mysubmariner.com/RADO/RADO_WATCH_190-4933-491.html

http://www.mysubmariner.com/RADO/RADO_WATCH_186-4929-491.html

http://www.mysubmariner.com/RADO/RADO_WATCH_189-4932-491.html

The Other brands of watches :
http://www.mysubmariner.com/ROLEX-470-1-1.html

http://www.mysubmariner.com/BELL__ROSS-472-1-1.html

http://www.mysubmariner.com/OMEGA/OMEGA_011-241-477.html

==============================================================================
TOPIC: REPLICA OMEGA 227 WATCH,CHEAP OMEGA 227 WATCH
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/ccfaa019de4b47ac?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 16 2009 11:15 pm
From: Alexandra dale

REPLICA OMEGA 227 WATCH,CHEAP OMEGA 227 WATCH

Click Here To Website : http://www.mysubmariner.com/OMEGA/OMEGA_227_WATCH-430-477.html

OMEGA 227 WATCH Replica Information :
Brand : OMEGA http://www.mysubmariner.com/OMEGA-477-1-1.html
Price : 70.00$

The Same Replica Series :
http://www.mysubmariner.com/OMEGA/OMEGA_007_SEAMASTER_PROFESSIONAL-240-477.html

http://www.mysubmariner.com/OMEGA/OMEGA_012_SEAMASTER_PROFESSIONAL-242-477.html

http://www.mysubmariner.com/OMEGA/OMEGA_013_SPEEDMASTER_CHCHRONOMETER-243-477.html

http://www.mysubmariner.com/OMEGA/OMEGA_015-244-477.html

The Other brands of watches :
http://www.mysubmariner.com/ROLEX-470-1-1.html

http://www.mysubmariner.com/BELL__ROSS-472-1-1.html

http://www.mysubmariner.com/BREITLING-479-1-1.html

==============================================================================
TOPIC: REPLICA FRANK MULLER FM WATCH 097,CHEAP FRANK MULLER FM WATCH 097
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/02e10d6dc8b2bab8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 16 2009 11:15 pm
From: Alexandra dale

REPLICA FRANK MULLER FM WATCH 097,CHEAP FRANK MULLER FM WATCH 097

Click Here To Website : http://www.mysubmariner.com/FRANK_MULLER_FM/FRANK_MULLER_FM_WATCH_097-3072-486.html

FRANK MULLER FM WATCH 097 Replica Information :
Brand : FRANK MULLER FM http://www.mysubmariner.com/FRANK_MULLER_FM-486-1-1.html
Price : 66.00$

The Same Replica Series :
http://www.mysubmariner.com/FRANK_MULLER_FM/FRANK_MULLER_FM_WATCH_138-3118-486.html

http://www.mysubmariner.com/FRANK_MULLER_FM/FRANK_MULLER_FM_WATCH_163-3144-486.html

http://www.mysubmariner.com/FRANK_MULLER_FM/FRANK_MULLER_FM_WATCH_161-3142-486.html

http://www.mysubmariner.com/FRANK_MULLER_FM/FRANK_MULLER_FM_WATCH_162-3143-486.html

http://www.mysubmariner.com/FRANK_MULLER_FM/FRANK_MULLER_FM_WATCH_134-3113-486.html

The Other brands of watches :
http://www.mysubmariner.com/ROLEX-470-1-1.html

http://www.mysubmariner.com/BELL__ROSS-472-1-1.html

http://www.mysubmariner.com/AUDEMARS_PIGUET_AP/AUDEMARS_PIGUET_AP_013_watch-1098-508.html

==============================================================================
TOPIC: REPLICA AUDEMARS PIGUET AP WATCH 089,CHEAP AUDEMARS PIGUET AP WATCH 089
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/b9e3212dcc075b35?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Oct 16 2009 11:15 pm
From: Alexandra dale

REPLICA AUDEMARS PIGUET AP WATCH 089,CHEAP AUDEMARS PIGUET AP WATCH
089

Click Here To Website : http://www.mysubmariner.com/AUDEMARS_PIGUET_AP/AUDEMARS_PIGUET_AP_WATCH_089-2847-508.html

AUDEMARS PIGUET AP WATCH 089 Replica Information :
Brand : AUDEMARS PIGUET AP http://www.mysubmariner.com/AUDEMARS_PIGUET_AP-508-1-1.html
Price : 81.00$

The Same Replica Series :
http://www.mysubmariner.com/AUDEMARS_PIGUET_AP/AUDEMARS_PIGUET_AP_012_watch-1097-508.html

http://www.mysubmariner.com/AUDEMARS_PIGUET_AP/AUDEMARS_PIGUET_AP_014_watch-1099-508.html

http://www.mysubmariner.com/AUDEMARS_PIGUET_AP/AUDEMARS_PIGUET_AP_015_watch-1100-508.html

http://www.mysubmariner.com/AUDEMARS_PIGUET_AP/AUDEMARS_PIGUET_AP_016_watch-1101-508.html

The Other brands of watches :
http://www.mysubmariner.com/ROLEX-470-1-1.html

http://www.mysubmariner.com/BELL__ROSS-472-1-1.html