Frugal Living: Aug 20, 2008

Wednesday, August 20, 2008

25 new messages in 11 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The DSL 12-Month Commitment
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/bb1b6c0797411fac?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 11 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 3:40 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Messiah Obama <spam@nospam.org> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Messiah Obama <spam@nospam.org> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Messiah Obama <spam@nospam.org> wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>> Jack <Windswept@Home> wrote

>>>>>>> Maybe you're one of the few lucky ones.

>>>>>> Unlikely. If they were as bad as you claim, you'd have seen class action suits by now.

>>>>> Forget DSL, we had progressively deteriorating Verizon phone
>>>>> service for a couple of years, mostly occasional static, but techs
>>>>> could find nothing wrong. It finally got to the point that the
>>>>> service would go out completely for several hours a day and
>>>>> dial-up internet downloaded less than 10 kbps. This lasted
>>>>> a month before a tech finally diagnosed that their surge
>>>>> protector was damaged and replaced it.

>>>>> Veizon credited the bill for that last month but the service was defective for a coupla yrs.

>>>>> So I can understand the original poster's fears. Wouldn't want to
>>>>> sign-up for a year's DSL and have it out of order for a month.

>>>> Using that mindless line, you'd never sign up for anything.

>>> Furthermore, it wasn't until we complained to BBB that
>>> Verizon finally fixed the problem amd applied the credit.

>> And you could have done that much earlier, when they didnt find any problem the first time.

> Should have, but the problem was "livable" until that last month.

>>>> If you end up with a defective service, you can ALWAYS cancel if you want.

>>> Regarding the DSL service, yeah, you can cancel and lose the money
>>> as well as have your card charged with early termination penalty.

>> You can also use the small claims court if they wont waive that when
>> they cant provide the service that you paid for.

>>> Most people aren't going to small claims court over something like this and Verizon knows it.

>> Most people are irrelevant. What matters is that they also know what the small claims court
>> will rule and arent stupid enough to incur the costs involved in a guaranteed loss there.

> Most people are quite relevant.

Nope, completely irrelevant if you dont like the ETP and they cant deliver a viable service.

> Whatever Verizon loses in occasional individual cases is more than compensated for

Irrelevant to what happens when Verizon realises that you are prepared to use the small claims court.

> and Verizon plays the odds against the possibility of a class action.

Yes, but they dont when Verizon realises that you are prepared to use the small claims court.

>>> Hell, it would end up costing more than what you would gain from any lawsuit.

>> Wrong again. They get to pay those costs when they lose. As they inevitably would.

> Even if that's true,

Corse its true, and Verizon knows that.

> it's just the time, effort, and delays that are inherit with the judicial
> system make recovery fo $300 or whatever not worth it.

You dont have to do it, just make it clear to Verizon that if they dont waive the ETP
when they cant deliver the service you paid for, that you will use the small claims court.

Verizon will realise that you do know your legal rights and will waive the ETP rather
than end up paying a lot more as a result of them losing in the small claims court.

> The ideal situation would be a modem that could be used for all DSLs and which
> you would buy and own up front. Then have a month-to-month provider plan.

Plenty of operations do it like that. Its got real downsides support wise tho.

== 2 of 11 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 5:03 pm
From: SMS

Jack wrote:

> If they offered month-to-month plans, it wouldn't be so bad. You
> could merely cancel. But with the 12-month commitment which requires
> an early termination penalty as well as full pmt. for the 12 months,
> there is no incentive for good support.
>
> What a racket! You pay for a shoddy product and are stuck with it!

With AT&T there is no contract. You pay for a shoddy product, but at
least you're not stuck with it. Don't get me started on AT&T's support,
or lack thereof.

== 3 of 11 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 5:24 pm
From: spam@nospam.org (Messiah Obama)

On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 08:40:44 +1000, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

>Messiah Obama <spam@nospam.org> wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Messiah Obama <spam@nospam.org> wrote
>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> Messiah Obama <spam@nospam.org> wrote
>>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>>> Jack <Windswept@Home> wrote
>
>>>>>>>> Maybe you're one of the few lucky ones.
>
>>>>>>> Unlikely. If they were as bad as you claim, you'd have seen class action suits by now.
>
>>>>>> Forget DSL, we had progressively deteriorating Verizon phone
>>>>>> service for a couple of years, mostly occasional static, but techs
>>>>>> could find nothing wrong. It finally got to the point that the
>>>>>> service would go out completely for several hours a day and
>>>>>> dial-up internet downloaded less than 10 kbps. This lasted
>>>>>> a month before a tech finally diagnosed that their surge
>>>>>> protector was damaged and replaced it.
>
>>>>>> Veizon credited the bill for that last month but the service was defective for a coupla yrs.
>
>>>>>> So I can understand the original poster's fears. Wouldn't want to
>>>>>> sign-up for a year's DSL and have it out of order for a month.
>
>>>>> Using that mindless line, you'd never sign up for anything.
>
>>>> Furthermore, it wasn't until we complained to BBB that
>>>> Verizon finally fixed the problem amd applied the credit.
>
>>> And you could have done that much earlier, when they didnt find any problem the first time.
>
>> Should have, but the problem was "livable" until that last month.
>
>>>>> If you end up with a defective service, you can ALWAYS cancel if you want.
>
>>>> Regarding the DSL service, yeah, you can cancel and lose the money
>>>> as well as have your card charged with early termination penalty.
>
>>> You can also use the small claims court if they wont waive that when
>>> they cant provide the service that you paid for.
>
>>>> Most people aren't going to small claims court over something like this and Verizon knows it.
>
>>> Most people are irrelevant. What matters is that they also know what the small claims court
>>> will rule and arent stupid enough to incur the costs involved in a guaranteed loss there.
>
>> Most people are quite relevant.
>
>Nope, completely irrelevant if you dont like the ETP and they cant deliver a viable service.

Most people are quite relevant.

And the fact is that most people won't fight it legally.

>> Whatever Verizon loses in occasional individual cases is more than compensated for
>
>Irrelevant to what happens when Verizon realises that you are prepared to use the small claims court.

Verizon knows that most people won't fight.

>> and Verizon plays the odds against the possibility of a class action.
>
>Yes, but they dont when Verizon realises that you are prepared to use the small claims court.

Verizon knows that most people won't fight.

>>>> Hell, it would end up costing more than what you would gain from any lawsuit.
>
>>> Wrong again. They get to pay those costs when they lose. As they inevitably would.
>
>> Even if that's true,
>
>Corse its true, and Verizon knows that.

Nope.

>> it's just the time, effort, and delays that are inherit with the judicial
>> system make recovery fo $300 or whatever not worth it.
>
>You dont have to do it, just make it clear to Verizon that if they dont waive the ETP
>when they cant deliver the service you paid for, that you will use the small claims court.
>
>Verizon will realise that you do know your legal rights and will waive the ETP rather
>than end up paying a lot more as a result of them losing in the small claims court.

Nope.

They're nothing in the "terms" that provide for 100% uptime.

Quite the opposite as I recall.

And a court would have to try to define what is "reasonable" downtime.

Most people won't take that chance.

>> The ideal situation would be a modem that could be used for all DSLs and which
>> you would buy and own up front. Then have a month-to-month provider plan.
>
>Plenty of operations do it like that. Its got real downsides support wise tho.

Cite "Plenty of operations."

== 4 of 11 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 5:26 pm
From: Windswept@Home (Jack)

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 17:03:34 -0700, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

>Jack wrote:
>
>> If they offered month-to-month plans, it wouldn't be so bad. You
>> could merely cancel. But with the 12-month commitment which requires
>> an early termination penalty as well as full pmt. for the 12 months,
>> there is no incentive for good support.
>>
>> What a racket! You pay for a shoddy product and are stuck with it!
>
>With AT&T there is no contract. You pay for a shoddy product, but at
>least you're not stuck with it. Don't get me started on AT&T's support,
>or lack thereof.

Hahaha.

AT&T says that they cannot provide me with DSL because I don't have a
phone service with them.

Fact is, my long distance is with AT&T.

== 5 of 11 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 6:14 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

>>>>>>>>> Maybe you're one of the few lucky ones.

>>>>>>>> Unlikely. If they were as bad as you claim, you'd have seen class action suits by now.

>>>>>>> Forget DSL, we had progressively deteriorating Verizon phone
>>>>>>> service for a couple of years, mostly occasional static, but techs
>>>>>>> could find nothing wrong. It finally got to the point that the
>>>>>>> service would go out completely for several hours a day and
>>>>>>> dial-up internet downloaded less than 10 kbps. This lasted
>>>>>>> a month before a tech finally diagnosed that their surge
>>>>>>> protector was damaged and replaced it.

>>>>>>> Veizon credited the bill for that last month but the service was defective for a coupla yrs.

>>>>>>> So I can understand the original poster's fears. Wouldn't want
>>>>>>> to sign-up for a year's DSL and have it out of order for a month.

>>>>>> Using that mindless line, you'd never sign up for anything.

>>>>> Furthermore, it wasn't until we complained to BBB that
>>>>> Verizon finally fixed the problem amd applied the credit.

>>>> And you could have done that much earlier, when they didnt find any problem the first time.

>>> Should have, but the problem was "livable" until that last month.

>>>>>> If you end up with a defective service, you can ALWAYS cancel if you want.

>>>>> Regarding the DSL service, yeah, you can cancel and lose the money
>>>>> as well as have your card charged with early termination penalty.

>>>> You can also use the small claims court if they wont waive
>>>> that when they cant provide the service that you paid for.

>>>>> Most people aren't going to small claims court over something like this and Verizon knows it.

>>>> Most people are irrelevant. What matters is that they also know
>>>> what the small claims court will rule and arent stupid enough to
>>>> incur the costs involved in a guaranteed loss there.

>>> Most people are quite relevant.

>> Nope, completely irrelevant if you dont like the ETP and they cant deliver a viable service.

> Most people are quite relevant.

Nope, completely irrelevant if you dont like the ETP and they cant deliver a viable service.

> And the fact is that most people won't fight it legally.

Just because most people are completely stupid is completely irrelevant.

>>> Whatever Verizon loses in occasional individual cases is more than compensated for

>> Irrelevant to what happens when Verizon realises
>> that you are prepared to use the small claims court.

> Verizon knows that most people won't fight.

Irrelevant to what happens when Verizon realises
that you are prepared to use the small claims court.

>>> and Verizon plays the odds against the possibility of a class action.

>> Yes, but they dont when Verizon realises that you are prepared to use the small claims court.

> Verizon knows that most people won't fight.

Yes, but they dont when Verizon realises that you are prepared to use the small claims court.

>>>>> Hell, it would end up costing more than what you would gain from any lawsuit.

>>>> Wrong again. They get to pay those costs when they lose. As they inevitably would.

>>> Even if that's true,

>> Corse its true, and Verizon knows that.

> Nope.

Yep.

>>> it's just the time, effort, and delays that are inherit with the
>>> judicial system make recovery fo $300 or whatever not worth it.

>> You dont have to do it, just make it clear to Verizon that if they dont waive the ETP
>> when they cant deliver the service you paid for, that you will use the small claims court.

>> Verizon will realise that you do know your legal rights and will waive the ETP rather
>> than end up paying a lot more as a result of them losing in the small claims court.

> Nope.

Yep.

> They're nothing in the "terms" that provide for 100% uptime.

Doesnt need to be. The small claims court will rule that you didnt get what you signed up for and Verizon knows that.

> Quite the opposite as I recall.

Doesnt need to be. The small claims court will rule that you didnt get what you signed up for and Verizon knows that.

> And a court would have to try to define what is "reasonable" downtime.

And they would do that and find against Verizon.

> Most people won't take that chance.

Most people are completely irrelevant.

>>> The ideal situation would be a modem that could be
>>> used for all DSLs and which you would buy and own
>>> up front. Then have a month-to-month provider plan.

>> Plenty of operations do it like that. Its got real downsides support wise tho.

> Cite "Plenty of operations."

Go and fuck yourself.

== 6 of 11 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 7:34 pm
From: SMS

Jack wrote:

> Fact is, my long distance is with AT&T.

Your POTS has to be with them.

== 7 of 11 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 7:54 pm
From: The Real Bev

AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:

> "The Real Bev" <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Jack wrote:
>>> <gonzo@alltomyself.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> For a while there was a software problem that
>>>>required me to power cycle the modem every few days.
>>>
>>> For those of us who are klutzes, what does this mean?
>>
>> Turn it off. Wait a minute or so. Turn it back on. If it doesn't have a
>> switch, just unplug it. This is the first thing you try before you call
>> the helpdroid, and it fixes the majority of of connection problems.
>
> doing that has never fixed my problems.

It doesn't solve the "somebody in the main office tripped over the wire
and pulled the plug out" or "a car took out the junction box up the
street" or "I'm sorry, ma'am, there doesn't seem to be any problem"
problems, but nothing does :-(

Sometimes you have to tweak your router, too. Sort of like the standard
Windows solution: Reboot everything; if that fails, reformat and
reinstall everything.

--
Cheers, Bev
=============================================================
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice,
but in practice there is.

== 8 of 11 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 7:56 pm
From: The Real Bev

Messiah Obama wrote:
> The ideal situation would be a modem that could be used for all DSLs
> and which you would buy and own up front. Then have a month-to-month
> provider plan.

We bought our cablemodem (and a couple of backups) at a yard sale for a
couple of bucks. Way handier than paying the ISP $5/month to rent one.
Don't DSL modems work the same way?

--
Cheers, Bev
=============================================================
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice,
but in practice there is.

== 9 of 11 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 8:02 pm
From: The Real Bev

Jack wrote:

> <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>>Jack wrote:
>>
>>> If they offered month-to-month plans, it wouldn't be so bad. You
>>> could merely cancel. But with the 12-month commitment which requires
>>> an early termination penalty as well as full pmt. for the 12 months,
>>> there is no incentive for good support.
>>>
>>> What a racket! You pay for a shoddy product and are stuck with it!
>>
>>With AT&T there is no contract. You pay for a shoddy product, but at
>>least you're not stuck with it. Don't get me started on AT&T's support,
>>or lack thereof.
>
> Hahaha.
>
> AT&T says that they cannot provide me with DSL because I don't have a
> phone service with them.
>
> Fact is, my long distance is with AT&T.

So was ours until several years ago when they started charging a
$3/month minimum whether you made any calls or not. When I canceled it
they insisted that I still owed them $6 because they billed bimonthly.
I told them they'd have to sue me to get it because there was no way on
earth I would voluntarily pay for a service I didn't want and hadn't
used. They canceled the charge.

Until then they were OK. Now I think they stink.

--
Cheers, Bev
=============================================================
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice,
but in practice there is.

== 10 of 11 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 8:27 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote
> Messiah Obama wrote

>> The ideal situation would be a modem that could be used for all DSLs and which you would buy and own up front. Then
>> have a month-to-month provider plan.

> We bought our cablemodem (and a couple of backups) at a yard sale for a couple of bucks. Way handier than paying the
> ISP $5/month to rent one. Don't DSL modems work the same way?

Yes they do.

I've always owned all of mine.

== 11 of 11 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 8:31 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote
> AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote
>> The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Jack wrote
>>>> <gonzo@alltomyself.com> wrote

>>>>> For a while there was a software problem that required me to power cycle the modem every few days.

>>>> For those of us who are klutzes, what does this mean?

>>> Turn it off. Wait a minute or so. Turn it back on. If it doesn't have a switch, just unplug it. This is the
>>> first thing you try before you call the helpdroid, and it fixes the majority of of connection problems.

>> doing that has never fixed my problems.

> It doesn't solve the "somebody in the main office tripped over the wire and pulled the plug out" or "a car took out
> the junction box up the street" or "I'm sorry, ma'am, there doesn't seem to be any problem" problems, but nothing does
> :-(

> Sometimes you have to tweak your router, too.

Hardly ever.

> Sort of like the standard Windows solution: Reboot everything; if that fails, reformat and reinstall everything.

Nothing like. If a reboot of the modem doesnt fix it, the problem is
certainly upstream of the modem, with the line or back behind that.

And that hasnt been the standard Windows solution for generations of Win now.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Should I buy a gas gussler?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/fabb5d064cc35efb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 3:43 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rod Speed wrote:
>
>> The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>>
>>>> The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>
>>>>> Latest bargain: A Garmin e-Map GPS for $1.00. Not fully up to
>>>>> date as far as highways go, but good enough to tell you where you
>>>>> are. It can be updated, but I'd need to buy a $15 cable and a $90
>>>>> CD to do that.
>>
>>>> Nope, just the cable, and its a lot cheaper than that.
>>
>>> Including shipping? Where?
>>
>> ebay.

> Yeah, that's where I looked.

Look harder. It aint cast in stone for all time.

> About $15 including shipping. If you have a better link, please post.

You can get the cable for a lot less than that including shipping.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Frugal hi speed internet?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/47603876a73acdc1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 5:53 pm
From: "JR Weiss"

"Gordon" <gonzo@alltomyself.com> wrote...
>
> Except that that is for the 768K downstream speed. Uptream speeds
> will be more like 128K.

Depends on whether it's a symmetric or asymmetric system...

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Compact Flourescent bulbs
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c541905216cc4817?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 6:28 pm
From: don@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein)

In article <48abbce5$0$17226$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>, Fake ID wrote:
>In article <slrngan22d.o1t.don@manx.misty.com>,
>Don Klipstein <don@manx.misty.com> wrote:
>>
>> As for a bathroom nightlight, I suggest for energy savings:
>>
>>* A 1/16-1/8 watt electroluminescent one (if you want something that has a
>>fair chance based on my experience of reasonably lasting only a few years)
>>
>>* A .3-.4 watt LED one, preferably either green or blue for both really
>>long life expectancy (better chance decade-plus) and good illumination to
>>night vision.
>>
>>* The Feit Electric "Eternalite" C7 - with power consumption around .4
>>watt and actual expectation of life expectancy appearing to me to be to be
>>very high (several years to decade-plus) despite using white LEDs that
>>have degradation-prone phosphors. This particular model has the LEDs
>>being run at much lower power than usual for LEDs of such size.
>
>Wish I'd heard of these when my last incandescent nightlight bulb blew.
>I got another pack of "LibertyLight" 1.4W flourescent nightlights.
>The survivor from the first pack has been operating for over 5 years,
>the lens has yellowed, the housing has become brittle, and light
>output noticable lower than the new ones.

Heck - 5 years is a lot longer than I ever got from a fluorescent
nightlight. Yours could be a cold cathode one.

I tried a couple, and they lasted about 1-2 years.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Homemade Cleaner?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8ae05b3b6d060438?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 7:32 pm
From: terryc

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 22:46:53 -0500, Pringles CheezUms wrote:

> Is there a homemade cleaner that is as effective as (but cheaper than) a
> commercial general-purpose cleaner?

Yes and no. Magic wands are still in short supply. what works well on one
problem may not be the best on other problems.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Please Help...Need your recommendations - Lasik
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/525539cb42ab1286?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 7:34 pm
From: terryc

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 14:00:50 -0700, rita wrote:

> Please refrain from slamming people unless you are 100% sure and have
> 100% proof.

Far better to ask it on an appropriate health group where you are more
likely toget someone who knows rather than self proclaimed experts in
everything.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 8:09 pm
From: kimshapiro100@yahoo.com

I agree ...genuine people should NOT be called "spammers" if such
allegations cannot be substantiated. There must be real solid proof.
Folks will get turned off and won't ask questions that are important
to them in groups like this if legit people are called spammers.
Lasik technology and prices move fast and it seems appropriate for a
consumer to seek info in groups.
Also the poster was looking for doctors recommendations in a very
specific geographic area.

On Aug 19, 5:30 pm, Walter <m...@privacy.net.invalid> wrote:
> Samantha Hill - remove TRASH to reply <samh...@TRASHsonic.net>
> wrote innews:48ab0788$0$17216$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net:
>
> > This is the same spammer who is conducting consumer research
> > studies on Usenet. GRRRRRR
>
> report him/her to their ISP or posting nntp server.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Please help Burnham RSM-126 oil furnace won't heat hot water after
vacation
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/eef6515a0b25337e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 7:33 pm
From: Donita Luddington

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 07:28:48 -0700 (PDT), Mark wrote:

> CO alarm for your home in any case...
> and make sure there is no blockage in the flue or chimney

Will check this weekend!
Thanks Mark - you were one of the more helpful human beings out there.
Much appreciated!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Exploding iPods!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/20415c036fa62cee?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 8:35 pm
From: Steve de Mena

Thundercleets wrote:
> On Aug 20, 12:50 pm, "weedhopper" <Whop...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> <ultim...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:23c9f500-6a60-4ab1-8dca-97dc52b3d54f@v26g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> http://consumerist.com/5039012/apple-agrees-to-replace-exploding-firs...
>>> what should have been a no-brainer, Apple today agreed to replace any
>>> iPod Nanos that unexpectedly explode. The announcement came as a
>>> response to the Japanese government, which yesterday asked the
>>> computer-maker to "take some measures" to warn consumers of the
>>> potential danger of their little pocket rockets. Apple blames a single
>>> bad battery supplier for the spontaneous fireworks.
>>> Apple said the flaw affected first-generation Nanos, sold between
>>> September 2005 and December 2006, in very rare instances. The
>>> company's statement added that "There have been no reports of serious
>>> injuries or property damage, and no reports of incidents for any other
>>> iPod Nano model."<snip>
>> Apple has really turned to shit lately. Do you notice; it never seems to be
>> their fault. But doesn't QC ultimately fall on the company whose name is on
>> the product?
>
> Apple quality has suffered since they like those in x86 micro-land
> have switched production abroad mainly over to China.
> They are still better on average then the x86 micro boxen.
> CR just rated them no. 1 again in consumer satisfaction overall I
> believe.

I don't think their quality is any better than anyone else. Same
power supplies, chips, memory, drives, burners as everyone else uses.
From reading this forum, it should be obvious many Mac owners would
rate them #1 no matter what sort of issues they had.

Steve

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 8:46 pm
From: Shawn Hirn

In article
<632a8552-5b43-46d1-898f-c927b6c8f44b@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
Thundercleets <thundercleets@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Aug 20, 12:50 pm, "weedhopper" <Whop...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > <ultim...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >
> > news:23c9f500-6a60-4ab1-8dca-97dc52b3d54f@v26g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > >http://consumerist.com/5039012/apple-agrees-to-replace-exploding-firs...
> >
> > > what should have been a no-brainer, Apple today agreed to replace any
> > > iPod Nanos that unexpectedly explode. The announcement came as a
> > > response to the Japanese government, which yesterday asked the
> > > computer-maker to "take some measures" to warn consumers of the
> > > potential danger of their little pocket rockets. Apple blames a single
> > > bad battery supplier for the spontaneous fireworks.
> >
> > > Apple said the flaw affected first-generation Nanos, sold between
> > > September 2005 and December 2006, in very rare instances. The
> > > company's statement added that "There have been no reports of serious
> > > injuries or property damage, and no reports of incidents for any other
> > > iPod Nano model."<snip>
> >
> > Apple has really turned to shit lately. Do you notice; it never seems to be
> > their fault. But doesn't QC ultimately fall on the company whose name is on
> > the product?
>
> Apple quality has suffered since they like those in x86 micro-land
> have switched production abroad mainly over to China.
> They are still better on average then the x86 micro boxen.
> CR just rated them no. 1 again in consumer satisfaction overall I
> believe.
>
> I don't think I would mind at least a 10% premium for a quality
> domestically produced computer.
>
> I wonder if it will get like Fender where the value of a given guitar
> is greatly affected by where it was manufactured?
> From what I understand Chinese Fenders are the lowest and of course
> American Fenders are at the top.

I am a long time Apple user and that hasn't been my experience at all. I
own one of those first generation iPod nanos, which was a gift. I also
own an Apple G5 PowerMac, an Apple MacPro (Intel-based) and an Apple
MacBook Pro (Intel based) and all of them work beautifully. I am using
the MacBook Pro to type this message.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 8:54 pm
From: Steve de Mena

Shawn Hirn wrote:

> I am a long time Apple user and that hasn't been my experience at all. I
> own one of those first generation iPod nanos, which was a gift. I also
> own an Apple G5 PowerMac, an Apple MacPro (Intel-based) and an Apple
> MacBook Pro (Intel based) and all of them work beautifully. I am using
> the MacBook Pro to type this message.

Do you have an ATI x1900 XT graphics card in your Mac Pro?

Steve

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Putian City Chengxiang District CiCi Trade Co., Ltd 8-35usd (www.
cicigoogle.cn)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4353ac669955661c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 8:43 pm
From: cicitrade01@yahoo.cn

hi
We are supplier in china Footwear Apparel Handbags Jeans&Pants Cap
Accessory
1) Top quality, reasonable price, safe shipping, and best service
2) Sport shoes for men, women and kids with all sizes available
3) Sport shoes with different colors and styles available in stock
4) The material and size can be required to make in accordance with
customers' requests

Price :8-35usd 6-30EURO 5-30Pounds

Footwear
http://www.cicigoogle.cn
Apparel
http://www.cicigoogle.cn
Handbags
http://www.cicigoogle.cn
Jeans&Pants
http://www.cicigoogle.cn
Cap
http://www.cicigoogle.cn
Accessory
http://www.cicigoogle.cn
electronics product
http://picasaweb.google.com/cicitrade.eleltronics
CiCi
www.cicigoogle.cn
MSN:cicitrade@live.cn
Building Material Market, Goutou Denizen Committee, XiaChen Office
Putian City Chengxiang District CiCi Trade Co., Ltd

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 8:43 pm
From: cicitrade01@yahoo.cn

Price :8-35usd 6-30EURO 5-30Pounds

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Vote for John McCain.. a mans man...not some pointy nose, smart guy.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4f41a0c9e221cb6f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 8:43 pm
From: Shawn Hirn

In article
<aa745e01-1e0b-47ab-b4c9-e2217f6909f3@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
phil scott <phil@philscott.net> wrote:

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGWakF5XgYM&NR=1

A man's man who can barely remember which shoe goes on which foot.

The link below points to a letter written by another former Vietnam POW.
This letter should be read by anyone who plans to vote for president
this November.

http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,164859_1,00.html

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The leeches are reaching for more
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c1f04e2aa1094da5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 8:10 pm
From: Coffee's For Closers

In article <92320597-95cb-46bb-a531-
d3238aa35db0@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, seerialmom@yahoo.com
says...
> On Aug 10, 8:30=A0pm, "Gregory Morrow"
> <FlyPrahaJakartaByTU104...@flyokayflycsa.cz> wrote:
> > George Grapman wrote:
> > > Gregory Morrow wrote:
> > > > clams_casino wrote:
> >
> > > >> clams_casino wrote:
> >
> > > >>> George Grapman wrote:
> >
> > > >>>> clams_casino wrote:
> >
> > > >>>>> George Grapman wrote:
> >
> > > >>>>>> clams_casino wrote:
> >
> > > >>>>>>> Gregory Morrow wrote:
> >
> > > >>>>>>>> The cost of phone calls has gone down by factors of tens,
> > > >>>>>>>> hundreds even...
> >
> > > >>>>>>> My phone bill is higher today than it's ever been.
> >
> > > >>>>>> =A0 But are you making the same number of calls?
> >
> > > >>>>> Yes, but we make very few phone calls - usually it's much cheaper=
> /
> > > >>>>> faster (especially for reservations, etc) / easier to use email.
> >
> > > >>>> =A0 You must have an unusual calling pattern. I make more calls th=
> an
> > > >>>> ever since I work at home but pay much less than I did 20 years ag=
> o.
> >
> > > >>> Our 1998 bills averaged $22.05 / month with 115 min LD / mo.
> >
> > > >>> Year to date 2008, they've averaged $28.56/mo for just 35 min long
> > > >>> distance / month. =A0Our base rate is currently $9.17/month with $1=
> 6.02
> > > >>> in fees / taxes using a 5 cent offpeak & 10 cent / min flat rate LD
> > > >>> calling plan. =A0 =A0Last =A0month, our bill was $27.68 =3D $9.17 b=
> ase rate,
> > > >>> $1.48 for LD calls (19 minutes) and $17.03 in taxes / fees.
> >
> > > >>> Businesses have obviously made out well as the LD cost/min has drop=
> ped
> > > >>> significantly, an advantage for big users. =A0 Casual users have
> > > >>> realized a significant price hike due to all the fixed cost fees.
> > > >>> That's not including a Trac phone that we now have for convenience
> > > >>> when traveling, although it is rarely used & was not available 10
> > > >>> years ago.
> >
> > > >>> Seems like most cell phone users are probably paying $50 and up /
> > > >>> month, although they are probably using them 500 hrs / month
> > > >>> considering one in every 10 drivers seem to be driving around just =
> to
> > > >>> talk on their phones.
> >
> > > >> Just found some 1980 data - $18.88/mo.
> >
> > > > About $53.00 in present - day dollars...
> >
> > > =A0 =A0 Which is about what I pay for unlimited service with all the ad=
> d ons
> > > like caller ID and three way.
> >
> > Yup, me too...and most of these features were the stuff of science fictio=
> n
> > or just in development c. 1980. =A0Plus which we can choose our carriers =
> and
> > our phone hardware...

> In 1981 I remember thinking how "Hi-Tech" I was when I got a touch
> tone phone that let me "program" 12 phone #'s into a speed dial area
> on the front. That phone was so cool one of my roommate's brothers
> stole it! :D

You had touch-tone in 1981? Humph... I and my twelve siblings
were still using an AT&T rental rotary-dial desk model in a
cheesy colour! Iiiifff we were lucky!

Although, I recall another residence, with the first domestic
button-pushing phone I ever used. It was actually still "pulse"
dial, and each numerical button sent a "click-click-click..."
type sound down the line while dialing. I think that was in the
late 70s.

Today, I feel a strange emotional resistance to the idea that, my
bottom-of-the-range cell phone actually needs a user's manual.

--
Want Privacy?
http://www.MinistryOfPrivacy.com/

==============================================================================

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==============================================================================
Google Groups: http://groups.google.com?hl=en

25 new messages in 9 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 1:13 pm
From: clams_casino

Vic Smith wrote:

>On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 15:37:21 -0400, clams_casino
><PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>Guess small amounts or if formulated perhaps very diluted in a hand
>>cleaner is overlooked or doesn't fall under the guidelines as being a
>>potential hazard.
>>
>>
>
>I think the orange stuff is mostly a marketing gimmick to target those
>who don't like the smell of "normal" Goop-like hand cleaner.
>But I'm not a chemist or epidemiologist, just a guy who knows what
>works to clean his hands.
>
>--Vic.
>
>
>
>

Orange oil is a very effective cleaner. It's probably no more hazardous
than turpentine. Used occasionally & cleaned / washed off quickly will
probably not be a problem for most.. The OP appeared to be female. We
used 5-10% solutions of orange oil to clean lab benches & equipment
where some technicians had adverse skin reactions (redness /
irritation), others didn't seem to be as affected (woman more so than
the men). I'm sure it's a time / concentration issue, but pouring
Goo Gone onto a paper towel & scrubbing a range top may be more exposure
than a typical woman might want on her hands.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 1:39 pm
From: Jeff

Vic Smith wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 15:37:21 -0400, clams_casino
> <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Guess small amounts or if formulated perhaps very diluted in a hand
>> cleaner is overlooked or doesn't fall under the guidelines as being a
>> potential hazard.
>
> I think the orange stuff is mostly a marketing gimmick to target those
> who don't like the smell of "normal" Goop-like hand cleaner.
> But I'm not a chemist or epidemiologist, just a guy who knows what
> works to clean his hands.

I would agree.

However, the raw hand cleaner is definitely rough on the skin. No
doubt why almost all brands contain lanolin. I tried the sans-lanolin
variety once which is why I know!

It is great for removing grease though.

Jeff
>
> --Vic.
>
>

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 1:25 pm
From: The Real Bev

Rod Speed wrote:

> The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote
>> clams_casino wrote
>>> Lou wrote
>
>>>> And really, how/when you pay for it is not the point - almost
>>>> anything you buy, the value drops precipitously as you leave
>>>> the store or the first time you use it. Visit just about any
>>>> yard sale. There may be more dollars invovled when the item
>>>> under consideration is a car, but the principle is the same.
>
>> Latest bargain: A Garmin e-Map GPS for $1.00. Not fully up to
>> date as far as highways go, but good enough to tell you where you
>> are. It can be updated, but I'd need to buy a $15 cable and a $90
>> CD to do that.
>
> Nope, just the cable, and its a lot cheaper than that.

Including shipping? Where?

--
Cheers, Bev
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I bought a tape called "Subliminal Advertising"
The next day I bought 47 more.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 2:53 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rod Speed wrote:
>
>> The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote
>>> clams_casino wrote
>>>> Lou wrote
>>
>>>>> And really, how/when you pay for it is not the point - almost
>>>>> anything you buy, the value drops precipitously as you leave
>>>>> the store or the first time you use it. Visit just about any
>>>>> yard sale. There may be more dollars invovled when the item
>>>>> under consideration is a car, but the principle is the same.
>>
>>> Latest bargain: A Garmin e-Map GPS for $1.00. Not fully up to
>>> date as far as highways go, but good enough to tell you where you
>>> are. It can be updated, but I'd need to buy a $15 cable and a $90
>>> CD to do that.

>> Nope, just the cable, and its a lot cheaper than that.

> Including shipping? Where?

ebay.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 3:06 pm
From: The Real Bev

Rod Speed wrote:

> The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>
>>> The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote
>>>
>>>> Latest bargain: A Garmin e-Map GPS for $1.00. Not fully up to
>>>> date as far as highways go, but good enough to tell you where you
>>>> are. It can be updated, but I'd need to buy a $15 cable and a $90
>>>> CD to do that.
>
>>> Nope, just the cable, and its a lot cheaper than that.
>
>> Including shipping? Where?
>
> ebay.

Yeah, that's where I looked. About $15 including shipping. If you have
a better link, please post.

--
Cheers,
Bev
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I don't need instructions, I have a hammer."
-- T.W. Wier

==============================================================================
TOPIC: sealant around steel shed
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/168c78c0fe822788?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 1:37 pm
From: Cicero

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 07:54:28 +0100, john hamilton wrote:

> Have just erected a yardmaster tin shed. I need to put a 'sealant'
> around the edge of the steel frame base where it sits on the concrete
> foundation, to prevent water traveling in under the frame.
>
> I normally get things like sealants from Wickes or Screwfix, but there
> are a bewildering array of different sealants available. Would anyone
> recommend which would be the one to use in this particular application
> please?

===================================
I would suggest a strong mortar weathering fillet about 2 or 3 inches
high, depending on how much space there is on the slab. Leave a small gap
at the top between fillet and shed wall and cover the gap with a basic
'frame sealant' from Wickes when the fillet is dry. Be prepared to repair
every 20 years.

Cic.
--
===================================
Using Ubuntu Linux
Windows shown the door
===================================

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Leaking Refrigerator Troubleshooting Guide With Pictures
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d7955180d046ea0c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 1:46 pm
From: Paul Michaels

Our refrigerator recently developed a water leak so I did a lot of
online research and went through a list of possible problems trying to
fix it and stop the leak.

It turned out that it was leaking because the freezer defrost drain
pan and hose were clogged up with ice and debris, which sent the water
dripping down into the fresh food section of the refrigerator through
the cold air vents.

I took pictures of the repair procedure and created a quick
instruction guide that hopefully will help some of you fix this
problem yourself and save money.

The page also includes a few of the other problems that might cause a
refrigerator to leak and some suggested solutions.

Here's the guide -
http://www.paulstravelpictures.com/How-To-Fix-A-Leaking-Refrigerator

Cheers,
Paul Michaels
Ft. Lauderdale, FL

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Rue du Commerce (rueducommerce.fr)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/dcb640a98bc226e5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 1:51 pm
From: Frédéric KLOTZ - RueDuCommerce

Cher Monsieur Dailey,

Nous avons déjà répondu à ce message copié-collé sur le net tout
entier ;o)

Ce matin, vos frais d'envoi vous ont été remboursés pour nous excuser
du désagrément lié à votre livraison.

Notre service client se situe en France et n'a pas pour habitude de
raccrocher au nez des clients, et je regrette véritablement qu'un tel
incident ai pu ce produire, j'ai ouvert une enquête interne à ce
sujet.

Suite à votre appel, il a d'ailleurs fait le nécessaire pour que votre
livraison soit faite dans les meilleurs délais.

Cordialement,

Frédéric Klotz
Responsable Qualité
RueDuCommerce

On 20 août, 13:10, jdailey <jdaile...@gmail.com> wrote:
> LIVRAISON = NULLE !!!
>
> J'attends toujours un produit de Rue de Commerce pour lequel la date
> de livraison "au plus tard" est dépassée depuis 3 jours.
> J'avais pris l'option Chronopost pour l'avoir plus rapidement - GROSSE
> ERREUR ! D'abord le colis à été expédié dans un autre département. RDC
> à réinitilaisé un envoi le lendemain en me disant que je recevrais un
> mail de confirmation - je n'ai jamais reçu le mail.
>
> En téléphonant à Chronopost, pour le 2e essai d'envoi, ils ont dit
> qu'ils n'ont pas trouvé l'adresse et ont ramené le colis - alors que
> le livreur avait bien mon numéro de téléphone il n'a pas essayé de me
> joindre. Je leur demande donc de me le livrer sur mon lieu de travail,
> comme visiblement ils sont plus apt à trouver des bureaux que des
> résidences. Chronopost me dit qu'ils peuvent le faire à condition que
> RDC leur donne l'autorisation. Je demande donc à RDC de faire le
> necéssaire et le service client m'a racroché au nez ! Il me semble que
> RDC qui était autrefois une commerce fiable est en train de se
> dégrader. Vu les remarques sur les fautes de français dans les
> correspondances qu'un autre a signalé dans cette discussion je
> supçonne que RDC commence à délocaliser le service client dans un pays
> du tiers monde, comme c'est bien à la mode actuellement.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 2:00 pm
From: rita

We would all like answers to the lasik questions the person posted.
Similar questions have been posted like this many times by other too.
That is the whole idea of groups.
Please refrain from slamming people unless you are 100% sure and have
100% proof.

== 1 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 2:08 pm
From: spam@nospam.org (Messiah Obama)

On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 04:51:40 +1000, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

>Jack <Windswept@Home> wrote

>> Maybe you're one of the few lucky ones.
>
>Unlikely. If they were as bad as you claim, you'd have seen class action suits by now.

Forget DSL, we had progressively deteriorating Verizon phone service
for a couple of years, mostly occasional static, but techs could find
nothing wrong. It finally got to the point that the service would go
out completely for several hours a day and dial-up internet downloaded
less than 10 kbps. This lasted a month before a tech finally
diagnosed that their surge protector was damaged and replaced it.

Veizon credited the bill for that last month but the service was
defective for a coupla yrs.

So I can understand the original poster's fears. Wouldn't want to
sign-up for a year's DSL and have it out of order for a month.

== 2 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 2:25 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Messiah Obama <spam@nospam.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 04:51:40 +1000, "Rod Speed"
> <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Jack <Windswept@Home> wrote
>
>>> Maybe you're one of the few lucky ones.
>>
>> Unlikely. If they were as bad as you claim, you'd have seen class
>> action suits by now.
>
> Forget DSL, we had progressively deteriorating Verizon phone service
> for a couple of years, mostly occasional static, but techs could find
> nothing wrong. It finally got to the point that the service would go
> out completely for several hours a day and dial-up internet downloaded
> less than 10 kbps. This lasted a month before a tech finally
> diagnosed that their surge protector was damaged and replaced it.

> Veizon credited the bill for that last month but the service was
> defective for a coupla yrs.

> So I can understand the original poster's fears. Wouldn't want to
> sign-up for a year's DSL and have it out of order for a month.

Using that mindless line, you'd never sign up for anything.

If you end up with a defective service, you can ALWAYS cancel if you want.

== 3 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 2:34 pm
From: spam@nospam.org (Messiah Obama)

On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 07:25:14 +1000, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

>Messiah Obama <spam@nospam.org> wrote:
>> On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 04:51:40 +1000, "Rod Speed"
>> <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Jack <Windswept@Home> wrote
>>
>>>> Maybe you're one of the few lucky ones.
>>>
>>> Unlikely. If they were as bad as you claim, you'd have seen class
>>> action suits by now.
>>
>> Forget DSL, we had progressively deteriorating Verizon phone service
>> for a couple of years, mostly occasional static, but techs could find
>> nothing wrong. It finally got to the point that the service would go
>> out completely for several hours a day and dial-up internet downloaded
>> less than 10 kbps. This lasted a month before a tech finally
>> diagnosed that their surge protector was damaged and replaced it.
>
>> Veizon credited the bill for that last month but the service was
>> defective for a coupla yrs.
>
>> So I can understand the original poster's fears. Wouldn't want to
>> sign-up for a year's DSL and have it out of order for a month.
>
>Using that mindless line, you'd never sign up for anything.

Furthermore, it wasn't until we complained to BBB that Verizon finally
fixed the problem amd applied the credit.

>If you end up with a defective service, you can ALWAYS cancel if you want.

Regarding the DSL service, yeah, you can cancel and lose the money as
well as have your card charged with early termination penalty. Most
people aren't going to small claims court over something like this and
Verizon knows it. Hell, it would end up costing more than what you
would gain from any lawsuit.

== 4 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 2:38 pm
From: Gordon

Windswept@Home (Jack) wrote in news:48ac39a8.14164593@news-60.giganews.com:

> There are lots of complaints about the the two DSL providers available
> here: Verizon and NetZero. The complaints focus around delayed
> service ready dates, disconnects which last up to 14 days, and
> piss-poor support.
>
> If they offered month-to-month plans, it wouldn't be so bad. You
> could merely cancel. But with the 12-month commitment which requires
> an early termination penalty as well as full pmt. for the 12 months,
> there is no incentive for good support.
>
> What a racket! You pay for a shoddy product and are stuck with it!
>
> Guess I'll always be a low-tech dial-up guy.

Well, Netzero isn't a telco, so they don't have their own lines.
They probably resell Verizon DSL. Which would account for their
poor ratings. Verizon users tend to have a love/hate relationship
with Verizon. We love it when it works, but god forbid it should
break. I have had Verizon DSL for 4 (maybe 5) years. It has worked
almost flawlessly. For a while there was a software problem that
required me to power cycle the modem every few days. But that
has been fixed. The biggest problem was when I moved. They took
14 days to get the DSL lines moved to across the street. In the
mean time I had to use dial up. THey didn't want to give me the
dial up number at first, but I insisted. Dial-up or cancel. They
wisely gave me the dial-up number. AFAIK they still maintain a
1-800 dial-up number.

== 5 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 2:44 pm
From: Windswept@Home (Jack)

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:38:03 +0200 (CEST), Gordon
<gonzo@alltomyself.com> wrote:

> For a while there was a software problem that
>required me to power cycle the modem every few days.

For those of us who are klutzes, what does this mean?

I've heard similar problems, e.g., one guy said he had to re-synch his
modem.

Well, those of us who are old geezers and technology-challenged don't
have a clue what all of this means.

Just don't have these kinds of problems with dial-up.

== 6 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 2:49 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

>>>>> Maybe you're one of the few lucky ones.

>>>> Unlikely. If they were as bad as you claim, you'd have seen class action suits by now.

>>> Forget DSL, we had progressively deteriorating Verizon phone
>>> service for a couple of years, mostly occasional static, but techs
>>> could find nothing wrong. It finally got to the point that the
>>> service would go out completely for several hours a day and
>>> dial-up internet downloaded less than 10 kbps. This lasted
>>> a month before a tech finally diagnosed that their surge
>>> protector was damaged and replaced it.

>>> Veizon credited the bill for that last month but the service was defective for a coupla yrs.

>>> So I can understand the original poster's fears. Wouldn't want to
>>> sign-up for a year's DSL and have it out of order for a month.

>> Using that mindless line, you'd never sign up for anything.

> Furthermore, it wasn't until we complained to BBB that
> Verizon finally fixed the problem amd applied the credit.

And you could have done that much earlier, when they didnt find any problem the first time.

>> If you end up with a defective service, you can ALWAYS cancel if you want.

> Regarding the DSL service, yeah, you can cancel and lose the money
> as well as have your card charged with early termination penalty.

You can also use the small claims court if they wont waive that when they cant provide the service that you paid for.

> Most people aren't going to small claims court over something like this and Verizon knows it.

Most people are irrelevant. What matters is that they also know what the small claims court
will rule and arent stupid enough to incur the costs involved in a guaranteed loss there.

> Hell, it would end up costing more than what you would gain from any lawsuit.

Wrong again. They get to pay those costs when they lose. As they inevitably would.

== 7 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 3:08 pm
From: William Souden

Rod Speed wrote:
> Messiah Obama <spam@nospam.org> wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Messiah Obama <spam@nospam.org> wrote
>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> Jack <Windswept@Home> wrote
>
>>>>>> Maybe you're one of the few lucky ones.
>
>>>>> Unlikely. If they were as bad as you claim, you'd have seen class action suits by now.
>
>>>> Forget DSL, we had progressively deteriorating Verizon phone
>>>> service for a couple of years, mostly occasional static, but techs
>>>> could find nothing wrong. It finally got to the point that the
>>>> service would go out completely for several hours a day and
>>>> dial-up internet downloaded less than 10 kbps. This lasted
>>>> a month before a tech finally diagnosed that their surge
>>>> protector was damaged and replaced it.
>
>>>> Veizon credited the bill for that last month but the service was defective for a coupla yrs.
>
>>>> So I can understand the original poster's fears. Wouldn't want to
>>>> sign-up for a year's DSL and have it out of order for a month.
>
>>> Using that mindless line, you'd never sign up for anything.
>
>> Furthermore, it wasn't until we complained to BBB that
>> Verizon finally fixed the problem amd applied the credit.
>
> And you could have done that much earlier, when they didnt find any problem the first time.
>
>>> If you end up with a defective service, you can ALWAYS cancel if you want.
>
>> Regarding the DSL service, yeah, you can cancel and lose the money
>> as well as have your card charged with early termination penalty.
>
> You can also use the small claims court if they wont waive that when they cant provide the service that you paid for.
>
>> Most people aren't going to small claims court over something like this and Verizon knows it.
>
> Most people are irrelevant. What matters is that they also know what the small claims court
> will rule and arent stupid enough to incur the costs involved in a guaranteed loss there.
>
>> Hell, it would end up costing more than what you would gain from any lawsuit.
>
> Wrong again. They get to pay those costs when they lose. As they inevitably would.

Meanwhile you have to deal with disputing your credit bill,disputing
any negative entries on your credit report and taking the time to file
the small claims suit.
>
>

== 8 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 3:14 pm
From: The Real Bev

Jack wrote:

> On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:38:03 +0200 (CEST), Gordon
> <gonzo@alltomyself.com> wrote:
>
>> For a while there was a software problem that
>>required me to power cycle the modem every few days.
>
> For those of us who are klutzes, what does this mean?

Turn it off. Wait a minute or so. Turn it back on. If it doesn't have
a switch, just unplug it. This is the first thing you try before you
call the helpdroid, and it fixes the majority of of connection problems.

> I've heard similar problems, e.g., one guy said he had to re-synch his
> modem.

It sometimes takes a while for them to assign you an IP address.

> Well, those of us who are old geezers and technology-challenged don't
> have a clue what all of this means.
>
> Just don't have these kinds of problems with dial-up.

Yeah, but then you couldn't be on line all day and still get telephone
calls. You dreaded having people send you pictures. And you had to
wait while the modem make the call+connection.

Fast is better.

--
Cheers,
Bev
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I don't need instructions, I have a hammer."
-- T.W. Wier

== 9 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 3:24 pm
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"The Real Bev" <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:rH0rk.1597$Fr1.643@newsfe03.iad...
> Jack wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:38:03 +0200 (CEST), Gordon
>> <gonzo@alltomyself.com> wrote:
>>
>>> For a while there was a software problem that
>>>required me to power cycle the modem every few days.
>>
>> For those of us who are klutzes, what does this mean?
>
> Turn it off. Wait a minute or so. Turn it back on. If it doesn't have a
> switch, just unplug it. This is the first thing you try before you call
> the helpdroid, and it fixes the majority of of connection problems.

doing that has never fixed my problems.

== 10 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 3:28 pm
From: spam@nospam.org (Messiah Obama)

On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 07:49:53 +1000, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

>Messiah Obama <spam@nospam.org> wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Messiah Obama <spam@nospam.org> wrote
>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> Jack <Windswept@Home> wrote
>
>>>>>> Maybe you're one of the few lucky ones.
>
>>>>> Unlikely. If they were as bad as you claim, you'd have seen class action suits by now.
>
>>>> Forget DSL, we had progressively deteriorating Verizon phone
>>>> service for a couple of years, mostly occasional static, but techs
>>>> could find nothing wrong. It finally got to the point that the
>>>> service would go out completely for several hours a day and
>>>> dial-up internet downloaded less than 10 kbps. This lasted
>>>> a month before a tech finally diagnosed that their surge
>>>> protector was damaged and replaced it.
>
>>>> Veizon credited the bill for that last month but the service was defective for a coupla yrs.
>
>>>> So I can understand the original poster's fears. Wouldn't want to
>>>> sign-up for a year's DSL and have it out of order for a month.
>
>>> Using that mindless line, you'd never sign up for anything.
>
>> Furthermore, it wasn't until we complained to BBB that
>> Verizon finally fixed the problem amd applied the credit.
>
>And you could have done that much earlier, when they didnt find any problem the first time.

Should have, but the problem was "livable" until that last month.

>>> If you end up with a defective service, you can ALWAYS cancel if you want.
>
>> Regarding the DSL service, yeah, you can cancel and lose the money
>> as well as have your card charged with early termination penalty.
>
>You can also use the small claims court if they wont waive that when they cant provide the service that you paid for.

>> Most people aren't going to small claims court over something like this and Verizon knows it.
>
>Most people are irrelevant. What matters is that they also know what the small claims court
>will rule and arent stupid enough to incur the costs involved in a guaranteed loss there.

Most people are quite relevant. Whatever Verizon loses in occasional
individual cases is more than compensated for and Verizon plays the
odds against the possibility of a class action.

>> Hell, it would end up costing more than what you would gain from any lawsuit.
>
>Wrong again. They get to pay those costs when they lose. As they inevitably would.

Even if that's true, it's just the time, effort, and delays that are
inherit with the judicial system make recovery fo $300 or whatever not
worth it.

The ideal situation would be a modem that could be used for all DSLs
and which you would buy and own up front. Then have a month-to-month
provider plan.

== 11 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 3:34 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

William Souden <souden@nospam.com> wrote:
> Rod Speed wrote:
>> Messiah Obama <spam@nospam.org> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Messiah Obama <spam@nospam.org> wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>> Jack <Windswept@Home> wrote
>>
>>>>>>> Maybe you're one of the few lucky ones.
>>
>>>>>> Unlikely. If they were as bad as you claim, you'd have seen
>>>>>> class action suits by now.
>>
>>>>> Forget DSL, we had progressively deteriorating Verizon phone
>>>>> service for a couple of years, mostly occasional static, but techs
>>>>> could find nothing wrong. It finally got to the point that the
>>>>> service would go out completely for several hours a day and
>>>>> dial-up internet downloaded less than 10 kbps. This lasted
>>>>> a month before a tech finally diagnosed that their surge
>>>>> protector was damaged and replaced it.
>>
>>>>> Veizon credited the bill for that last month but the service was
>>>>> defective for a coupla yrs.
>>
>>>>> So I can understand the original poster's fears. Wouldn't want to
>>>>> sign-up for a year's DSL and have it out of order for a month.
>>
>>>> Using that mindless line, you'd never sign up for anything.
>>
>>> Furthermore, it wasn't until we complained to BBB that
>>> Verizon finally fixed the problem amd applied the credit.
>>
>> And you could have done that much earlier, when they didnt find any
>> problem the first time.
>>>> If you end up with a defective service, you can ALWAYS cancel if
>>>> you want.
>>
>>> Regarding the DSL service, yeah, you can cancel and lose the money
>>> as well as have your card charged with early termination penalty.
>>
>> You can also use the small claims court if they wont waive that when
>> they cant provide the service that you paid for.
>>> Most people aren't going to small claims court over something like
>>> this and Verizon knows it.
>>
>> Most people are irrelevant. What matters is that they also know what
>> the small claims court will rule and arent stupid enough to incur the costs involved in a
>> guaranteed loss there.
>>> Hell, it would end up costing more than what you would gain from
>>> any lawsuit.
>>
>> Wrong again. They get to pay those costs when they lose. As they
>> inevitably would.

> Meanwhile you have to deal with disputing your credit bill,

Nope, dont have to do that when you threaten them with the small claims court and see them waive the early
termination payment because thats cheaper for them than what the small claims court will slug them if they dont.

> disputing any negative entries on your credit report

> and taking the time to file the small claims suit.

== 12 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 3:40 pm
From: "Rod Speed"