Frugal Living: Dec 23, 2008

Tuesday, December 23, 2008

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 12 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

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TOPIC: self-employed, the price?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/25ab6d7a439ac7f1?hl=en
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== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 12:20 pm
From: Napoleon

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 14:05:28 -0500, clams_casino
<PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:

>It would also significantly shift the burden of tax from the upper
>classes onto the lower and middle classes.

How? The upper class buys less stuff than the lower and middle
classes? The upper class currently pays more tax than the lower and
middle classes?

-N

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 12:42 pm
From: clams_casino

George wrote:

>>>
>>
>> Small business would love a sole reliance on sales tax. If you
>> thought tax compliance was lacking under the current system
>> .............
>
>
> That wouldn't be in my state. The state dept of revenue is very
> aggressive on sales tax compliance. It is not unknown for them to
> suspect something and station an agent to watch and then jeopardy
> assess the owner. Or since almost everything is computerized today
> they simply ask the suppliers for records and then jeopardy assess
> using the largest possible estimate.

The reason they can be "aggressive" is because they can use payroll data
and supplier information. If wages & inventory weren't taxed, there
would be little motivation to keep accurate payroll / inventory
records. Currently, it's in business's best interest to document all
wages as they are a cost / tax savings for the business, making payroll
tax collection a very low cost means of collecting taxes.

>
>>
>> On the plus side, there would be a significant increase in employment
>> opportunities when the IRS would have to quadruple their size.
>
>
> If a state had a sales tax there would be no change. Since there
> wouldn't be a need for the IRS it should be disbanded.

Ask a IRS agent - the force would quadruple (or more) because it would
be much harder / much more time consuming to track tax revenue via sales
taxes vs. payroll taxes.

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 12:43 pm
From: clams_casino

George wrote:

> clams_casino wrote:
>
>> George wrote:
>>
>>> Napoleon wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 08:52:41 -0500, George <george@nospam.invalid>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> or completely eliminate the income tax and go to a sales tax with
>>>>> say a 35% rate to collect equivalent tax funds.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's exactly what should be done. Sales tax only, no exceptions for
>>>> anyone. In return, it would be required to fund National Healthcare
>>>> with a single payer government fund.
>>>> Then the rich would actually, possibly pay taxes. And for frugal
>>>> people the hit would not be so bad since we know how to live without
>>>> excessively spending anyways. It might also stop Americans from being
>>>> considered as only "CONSUMERS" and we might become CITIZENS once
>>>> again.
>>>>
>>>> Bah, ha, ha. Like that would ever happen. How would we fund the Afghan
>>>> war?
>>>>
>>>> -N
>>>
>>>
>>> Thats the wrong argument for why it would never happen. If a sales
>>> tax brought in the same amount of money then it is status quo. It
>>> won't happen because of the special interests such as those who have
>>> tax exemptions or considerations for whatever reason and the massive
>>> industry consisting of accountants and lawyers required for our
>>> current tax system.
>>
>>
>>
>> It would also significantly shift the burden of tax from the upper
>> classes onto the lower and middle classes.
>
>
> It wouldn't have to if implemented in the same fashion as out state
> sales tax. Food that you buy to prepare yourself is exempt and so is
> basic clothing. Medical is exempt. Pretty much everything else is
> taxable.

If you don't tax everything, then the percentage will have to be much
higher than 35% on the non exempt items.

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 12:44 pm
From: clams_casino

Napoleon wrote:

>On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 14:05:28 -0500, clams_casino
><PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>It would also significantly shift the burden of tax from the upper
>>classes onto the lower and middle classes.
>>
>>
>
>How? The upper class buys less stuff than the lower and middle
>classes? The upper class currently pays more tax than the lower and
>middle classes?
>
>-N
>
>

Definitely, as a percentage of their total income.

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 1:11 pm
From: Jim Elbrecht

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 15:20:00 -0500, Napoleon <anarch@666yes.net>
wrote:

>On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 14:05:28 -0500, clams_casino
><PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>
>>It would also significantly shift the burden of tax from the upper
>>classes onto the lower and middle classes.
>
>How? The upper class buys less stuff than the lower and middle
>classes?

As a percentage of their income, yes.

>The upper class currently pays more tax than the lower and
>middle classes?

In raw numbers, yes. But as a percentage of their income they pay
much less.

The argument might be 'should everyone pay the same percentage of
their income in tax- or should they pay the same percentage of their
spending?'. Personally I'm a flat-income-taxer.

Jim

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 5:11 pm
From: Dave Garland

George wrote:

> It wouldn't have to if implemented in the same fashion as out state
> sales tax. Food that you buy to prepare yourself is exempt and so is
> basic clothing. Medical is exempt. Pretty much everything else is taxable.

Stocks and real estate? Bet there's a big loophole there.

Lawyers? Architects, security services, ad agencies? (Around here
those are all exempt. Though the security services are only exempt if
they're moonlighting cops.)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: More Families in California Homeless
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/fcbe5edd6812efc2?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 1:14 pm
From: chriseric777@hotmail.com

It would be nice to say that is an isolated incident, but it is not.
Twenty of 21 cities surveyed for a new report from U.S. Conference of
Mayors reported an increase in requests for food, and 59 percent of
those requests came from families. In addition, 16 of 25 cities
reported a significant increase in homeless families, with San
Francisco among the leaders.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_WAWC_IeVw&feature=channel_page

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Collision insurance
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/2850cf9d787416a8?hl=en
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== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 1:16 pm
From: "JR Weiss"

"Marsha" <mas@xeb.net> wrote...
> Looking for opinions of when to drop insurance coverage on a car and keep only
> liability coverage. I have a 2004 Malibu.

1) When you no longer have a lender that requires it.

2) When you can afford to replace it if you wreck it.

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 1:26 pm
From: "SpammersDie"

> If you can write off $7000 without "undue hardship" where's the "undue
> hardship" about kicking in $170 a year?

You could also write off that carton of milk that went sour without undue
hardship - does that mean you buy insurance to cover it?

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 1:37 pm
From: "JonquilJan"

Marsha <mas@xeb.net> wrote in message news:gip8pc$vmn$1@news.datemas.de...
> Looking for opinions of when to drop insurance coverage on a car and
> keep only liability coverage. I have a 2004 Malibu.
>
> Thanks.
> Marsha/Ohio

I haven't had anythong other than liability for years. However, I haven't
had anything other than 6 or more year old cars - second or third hand - for
years. All started with 100,000 miles on them when I got the vehicle..

As others posted, check with value (Blue Book) of the car - then compare
with your driving record and cost of coverage other than liability.

JonquilJan

Learn something new every day
As long as you are learning, you are living
When you stop learning, you start dying

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 3:15 pm
From: Marsha

Vic Smith wrote:
> If you can write off $7000 without "undue hardship" where's the "undue
> hardship" about kicking in $170 a year?
>
> --Vic

It's not much, granted, but I abhor donating money to insurance
companies. A necessary evil, though.

Marsha/Ohio

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 3:18 pm
From: Marsha

JR Weiss wrote:
> "Marsha" <mas@xeb.net> wrote...
>> Looking for opinions of when to drop insurance coverage on a car and keep only
>> liability coverage. I have a 2004 Malibu.
>
> 1) When you no longer have a lender that requires it.

The car was bought when it was new and there was never a loan. BTW, I
will never buy a new car again. It simply isn't frugal.

Marsha/Ohio

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TOPIC: Heat cost vs wind chill
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/4473379b2f5ac5b2?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 1:19 pm
From: "JR Weiss"

"James" <j0069bond@hotmail.com> wrote...
> Does wind chill mean any thing when it comes to heat bill? Since the
> wind is not on you but on the house, does it take more heat to keep
> warm?

Wind will increase convection losses wherever they happen to be. Any small air
leaks around windows, doors, etc will be exacerbated by wind. Losses through
single-pane windows will increase as the heat is removed from the outside
surface faster.

Strict radiation losses will not be affected.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The Many Uses of Baking Soda
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/670e2113209019eb?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 1:26 pm
From: E Z Peaces

meow2222@care2.com wrote:
> Ablang wrote:
>
>> The Many Uses of Baking Soda
>>
>> Baking soda is one of the most versatile cleaning agents on earth. It
>> is highly absorbent making it an excellent deodorizer. Best of all,
>> it's non-toxic. As a matter of fact, if the thought of your next
>> cleaning project gives you indigestion, half a teaspoon of baking soda
>> stirred into a glass of water works as well as some over-the-counter
>> drugs sold strictly for that purpose. Check with your doctor before
>> using this remedy.
>
> Whatever for? Cant people do anything for thmselves now?
>
> Yes, you can do lots of things with soda, most of which it does badly.
> Incuding acting as an indigestion remedy, other products are more
> effective and not packed with sodium.
>
>
> NT

Some modern diets have enormous amounts of sodium and some Americans
don't tolerate it well, perhaps due to insufficient magnesium or
potassium. Nevertheless, it's vital to get enough sodium. Americans
have dropped dead for the lack of it after the Pharisees proclaimed it
evil.

The body produces bicarbonate, in part to regulate stomach pH.
Ingesting it can be good for stamina and the kidneys.

I find that baking soda works better than anything else for some things
such as soap scum and ceramic sharpeners. It's a great buffer for
dilute household bleach.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 1:46 pm
From: MSfortune@mcpmail.com

On Dec 23, 3:32 am, meow2...@care2.com wrote:
> Ablang wrote:
> > The Many Uses of Baking Soda
>
> > Baking soda is one of the most versatile cleaning agents on earth. It
> > is highly absorbent making it an excellent deodorizer. Best of all,
> > it's non-toxic. As a matter of fact, if the thought of your next
> > cleaning project gives you indigestion, half a teaspoon of baking soda
> > stirred into a glass of water works as well as some over-the-counter
> > drugs sold strictly for that purpose. Check with your doctor before
> > using this remedy.
>
> Whatever for? Cant people do anything for thmselves now?
>
> Yes, you can do lots of things with soda, most of which it does badly.
> Incuding acting as an indigestion remedy, other products are more
> effective and not packed with sodium.
>
> NT

He has not had an original thought in years. When he comes across
something he thinks is interesting, the world will know about it by
way of his pasting. Usually, the world already knows as he was the
last human being to figure it out.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Maintenance of pressure cooker
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/2ef109355c1f241d?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 1:40 pm
From: MSfortune@mcpmail.com

On Dec 22, 9:34 pm, Arumugham <n.arumug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Clean your pressure cooker thoroughly after each use by washing and
> drying.
> Avoid using abrasives or metal scouring pads.
> Use soap and water with a plastic scouring pad for cleaning.
> Store your pressure cooker with the lid slightly open.
> Replace gasket at the first sign of cracking, flaking or tearing.
> Ensure all handles and knobs are securely fastened before using
> pressure cooker.
> Tighten nuts or screws if required.
>
About 40 years ago as a test, I doubled the weight on the pressure
cap while cooking a whole chicken. The soldered pressure relief valve
blew out and almost the entire chicken exited that 1/4" hole in
seconds. I was in another room at the time. The clean-up was enough to
deter further testing of this nature. I agree. Maintenance is a good
thing.

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TOPIC: How any dogma is fatal to its host...
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/d155ce5121b30773?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 1:49 pm
From: MSfortune@mcpmail.com

On Dec 23, 12:40 am, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
> On Dec 21, 2:02 pm, MSfort...@mcpmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 21, 1:47 pm, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
>
> > > I will not mention nor elaborate on any specific examples out of
> > > respect for Life generally and the individuals involved.
>
> > > The mechanism are that unrecognized bogus notions, just as lies do,
> > > produce cognitive dissonance between actuality across all levels of
> > > existence, the seen, unseen..and even the yet to be discovered... and
> > > the bogus notions, and various often vicious dogma. why?
>
> > > duhhh... congnitive dissonance fragmants a persons entirety.. his or
> > > her brain and spirit goes into internal conflict.. turmoil. it IS
> > > fatal.. It is not just uncomfortable, it is fatal by well known and
> > > studied mechanisms.
>
> > > bogus notions are bogus... the world is enterly chock full of them...
> > > wide ranges of pervasive bogus notions affection virtually all of
> > > us... Various political, economic and social bogus notions... wide
> > > swaths of what we call education, many that cause us to work
> > > ourselves to death or that ruin the joy of life (causing the body to
> > > generate self destructive chemistry... causing a wide range of
> > > disease with stress recognized as causative factors. ).
>
> > > ***
> > > Cults
> > > I am going to surprise a few people here.
>
> > > Cults might be a net benefit in some aspects, especially as they
> > > present an altenative bogus 'truth' that exposes larger cultural
> > > insanity. To that extent a cult, or even a criminal cult affords
> > > relief from wide ranges of any cultures bogus notions and their
> > > destructive effects.
>
> > > The more radical and insane the cult the greater it diverges from the
> > > ambient mess.. the more beneficial such cult is in that specific
> > > function.
>
> > > ***
>
> > > However to be effective in this way it must also be extreme... it
> > > must present a sure fire dogma.. maximizing the congnitive dissonance,
> > > it cannot be as hubbard said mamby pamby.. it must be hard core and
> > > certain. in its error it creates utter ruin. ...
>
> > > as we have seen with Scientology, no shortage of those dying young..
> > > many by suicide as a result... the ultimate in cognitive dissonance...
> > > and in the end destroying itself. Bogus notions produce self
> > > destructive behaviors... this is also widely documented and a well
> > > known side effects among any cults members.
>
> > > **
> > > a sure fire solution... dont believe anything, take a skeptical but
> > > not negative view of all that you understand as factual, most
> > > especially that which you hold the dearest... and especially that
> > > which you are prepaired to defend.
>
> > > waste all of that and you will be free of the cultural and other
> > > dogma.
>
> > > With that freedom, the actuality of existence simply ... errr
> > > exists. Noticing such actuality is quite a relief.
>
> > > Phil scott
>
> > "What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being
> > very wasteful. How true that is."
> > Dan Quale- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I typed that on my boat in the dark... hows that for an excuse
>
> here is a corrected version
>
> I will not mention nor elaborate on any specific examples out of
> respect for Life generally , and the individuals involved.
>
> The mechanism are that unrecognized bogus notions such as lies,
> produce cognitive dissonance between actuality and the bogus
> notion….
>
> It does this across all levels of existence, the seen, unseen..and
> even the yet to be discovered..
>
> various often vicious dogma, education, support of a bogus burocracy
> or aspect of govt.... and many religions included.
>
> why?
>
> congnitive dissonance fragments a persons entirety..
> his or her brain and spirit goes into internal conflict.. turmoil.
>
> it IS fatal.. It is not just uncomfortable,
> it is fatal by well known and studied mechanisms.
>
> Such a person finds relief only cleaving ever more tightly to his
> destructive notions...it spins if fast from there.
>
> bogus notions are bogus...
>
> the world is entirerly chock full of bogus notions, ... wide ranges of
> pervasive bogus notions affecting virtually all of us...
>
> Various political, economic and social notions... wide swaths of what
> we call education, many such idea's that cause us to work ourselves
> to death, or ruin the joy of life
>
> (causing the body to generate self destructive chemistry... causing a
> wide range of disease are long since recognized as causative
> factors. ).
>
> ***
> Cults
> I am going to surprise a few people here.
>
> Cults might be a net benefit in some aspects, especially as they
> present an alternative bogus 'truth' that exposes larger cultural
> insanity.
>
> To that extent a cult, or even a criminal cult, or terminally corrupt
> and collapsing government affords relief.
>
> This is seen extensively in the burocracy of any failing corporation
> or nation… these drive that failure. In the end these people
> become entirely vicious, and arrogantly self destruct.
>
> The more radical and insane the cult is, the greater it diverges from
> the ambient mess.. the more beneficial such cult is in that specific
> function… as it creates yet a greater net ruin.
>
> This goes on until the entire host nation collapses.
>
> ***
>
> However to be effective in this way such cult, cabal or burocracy must
> also be extreme...
> it must present a sure fire dogma.. maximizing the congnitive
> dissonance,
>
> it must be hard core and certain. .. like that vicious lying doper
> Rush Limbaugh for instance/ (that is not to justify the counterpart
> parties, likewise half nuts in their own way)
>
> in its error it creates utter ruin. ... arrogantly, with great force.
> I ruins all it touches, including itself… and its nasty as hell, it
> thinks nothing of lying or even outright murder.
>
> as we have seen with Scientology and a wide range of other cults from
> the Third Reich to those folks with the cool-aid…., no shortage of
> those dying young.. many by suicide as a result... the ultimate in
> cognitive dissonance... we have maimed tens of thousands of our own
> and murdered hundreds of thousands of men women and children In Iraq
> while at the same time bankrupting ourselves.
>
> thats insanity of course... self assured insanity... that kind ruins
> its self fast.
>
> Bogus notions produce self destructive behaviors...
>
> this is also widely documented and a well known side effects among any
> corrupt government or cults members. These forcefully defend
> destructive insanity. And by that means become themselves
> destructively insane. There are a few examples on this NG.
>
> **
> a sure fire solution... don't believe anything, take a skeptical but
> not negative view of all that you understand as factual, most
> especially that which you hold the dearest... and especially that
> which you are prepared to defend.
>
> waste all of that, and you will be free of cultural and other dogma…
> re-enabling your capability as an intelligent human being.
>
> Phil scott

Every success carries the seeds of its own destruction.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: poverty line
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/4eaa805a9a816468?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 1:50 pm
From: "catalpa"

"James" <j0069bond@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b1487a77-2cf2-4430-8295-47d42ad1e00b@35g2000pry.googlegroups.com...
> If you are at the line, what are you supposed to be able to do? Are
> you supposed to be able to afford a certain size apartment with heat,
> eat healthy, and dress warmly? Or is it just a number that qualifies
> you for welfare?

Here are some facts on poor people in America:

"The following are facts about persons defined as "poor" by the Census
Bureau, taken from various government reports:

Forty-three percent of all poor households actually own their own homes.
The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is
a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or
patio.

Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 31 percent own two or
more cars.

Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or
satellite TV reception.

Eighty-nine percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and
more than a third have an automatic dishwasher. "

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/bg2064.cfm

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 4:53 pm
From: Dave Garland

catalpa wrote:

> Forty-three percent of all poor households actually own their own homes.

And a lot of them are elderly. But what's your point? Should they be
paying $1000/mo in rent, instead of nothing (if they have the home
paid off) or $550/mo mortgage?

> Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car;

Unfortunately, in the US, most places you can't hunt for work, hold a
job (many poor households do hold down jobs), or shop for groceries
without a car.

>31 percent own two or more cars.

How many of those are up on blocks? But in any case, owning a car
isn't difficult, you can find a car for a couple of hundred dollars.

> Eighty-nine percent own microwave ovens,

$10 at garage sales

>more than half have a stereo,

free for taking from the alley

> http://www.heritage.org/

A far-right organization.

Dave

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Gov't to big 3 seeking bailout: no more private jets for you!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/6b69b9f5b3b347b9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 2:00 pm
From: MSfortune@mcpmail.com

On Dec 22, 9:21 am, Liberal Whisperer <hoofhearte...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Dec 22, 8:14 am, MSfort...@mcpmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Dec 20, 6:58 pm, ultim...@live.com wrote:
>
> > >http://consumerist.com/5114395/auto-executives-will-have-to-give-up-t...
>
> > > HAHA!
>
> > They can still pamper themselves in many remaining ways though.
> > Wagoner was just on my local radio telling about how they all worked
> > together to come to an agreement and make things work. The statement
> > that rankled me was, "We can still find ways to squeak out costs on
> > items our customers don't really need." In other words, GM can find a
> > way to give the customers less value for the money.
>
> The REAL problem is the demorats don't want to "bail-out" the BIG
> THREE . They want to bail out BIG UNION and then be able to dictate
> what kind of cars the BIG THREE will build,I.O.W's little shitbox eco-
> cars that nobody wants. Look out Yugo,here we come !!

We have 16" of snow on the ground and several more inches in progress.
I just went for a walk around the pond and an econobox driver froze up
and lost control around a turn. I jumped into the middle of the street
to avoid his low speed impact with me. Then I helped push the kid back
on the road. Meanwhile, I could drive anywhere around here that I
wanted to with the pre-bail-out truck.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 6:05 pm
From: lorad

On Dec 20, 3:58 pm, ultim...@live.com wrote:
> http://consumerist.com/5114395/auto-executives-will-have-to-give-up-t...
>
> HAHA!

So you $8 Trillion dollar banker bail-out guys still get to keep your
jets?
Why?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Don't they just print more money?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/372a5a8a074f3f89?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 2:54 pm
From: "'nam vet."

aren't these "bail-outs" just more $$$ that they print. backed by
nothing and they're running these presses 24/7
Inflationary? ya think?
--
When the Power of Love,replaces the Love of Power.
that's Evolution.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: What minor frugal change did you make this year?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/2d2a9d8612f0c718?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 4:53 pm
From: "Daniel T."

The Real Bev <bashley101+use...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Nicik Name wrote:
> > "Daniel T." <danie...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > > We started car pooling to work and now turn off our cars at stop lights.
>
> Isn't there some rule of thumb about how long you should idle and when
> you should turn the engine off?

From what I understand, it's 10 Seconds. In our state, the left turn
signal always goes green before the main light. So if I hit the turn
lane and the left turn signal is red, I shut off the engine until
after the cross traffic starts going. If I can see the cross traffic
light, I will wait until they have a yellow light.

This is exactly how Priuses save gas, shut the engine off at lights.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 5:30 pm
From: The Real Bev

Daniel T. wrote:

> The Real Bev <bashley101+use...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Nicik Name wrote:
>> > "Daniel T." <danie...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> > > We started car pooling to work and now turn off our cars at stop lights.
>>
>> Isn't there some rule of thumb about how long you should idle and when
>> you should turn the engine off?
>
> From what I understand, it's 10 Seconds. In our state, the left turn
> signal always goes green before the main light. So if I hit the turn
> lane and the left turn signal is red, I shut off the engine until
> after the cross traffic starts going. If I can see the cross traffic
> light, I will wait until they have a yellow light.
>
> This is exactly how Priuses save gas, shut the engine off at lights.

They're electric at low speeds, right? So you probably aren't using any
gas in high-traffic areas, right?

--
Cheers, Bev
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
As the shopper placed her groceries on the checkout stand, the
bagger asked "Paper or plastic?" "Doesn't matter," she replied,
"I'm bisackual."

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Moncler Women's down vest
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/d1643b0dd01b520b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
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misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 10 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 22 2008 11:15 pm
From: Goomba

James wrote:
> If you are at the line, what are you supposed to be able to do? Are
> you supposed to be able to afford a certain size apartment with heat,
> eat healthy, and dress warmly? Or is it just a number that qualifies
> you for welfare?

It probably depends on your own initiative and abilities as to what
you'll be able to do? A clever person can find resources to help them
fulfill their needs. A not very clever person will wait for someone else
to meet their needs.
Take food stamps for example-Some people are given assistance and
squander it on expensive processed foods whereas others (those clever
ones) take it to buy ingredients and cook more from scratch. Which one
do you think will have food longer into the month.....?

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 12:32 am
From: meow2222@care2.com

Ablang wrote:

> The Many Uses of Baking Soda
>
> Baking soda is one of the most versatile cleaning agents on earth. It
> is highly absorbent making it an excellent deodorizer. Best of all,
> it's non-toxic. As a matter of fact, if the thought of your next
> cleaning project gives you indigestion, half a teaspoon of baking soda
> stirred into a glass of water works as well as some over-the-counter
> drugs sold strictly for that purpose. Check with your doctor before
> using this remedy.

Whatever for? Cant people do anything for thmselves now?

Yes, you can do lots of things with soda, most of which it does badly.
Incuding acting as an indigestion remedy, other products are more
effective and not packed with sodium.

==============================================================================
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==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 1:02 am
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TOPIC: Cherry-Red Casino Review
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== 1 of 1 ==
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TOPIC: Cosmetic Surgery Loans
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/d667a91ebabfe929?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 1:25 am
From: jerrysocky@gmail.com

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== 1 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 5:11 am
From: Napoleon

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 08:52:41 -0500, George <george@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

>or completely
>eliminate the income tax and go to a sales tax with say a 35% rate to
>collect equivalent tax funds.

That's exactly what should be done. Sales tax only, no exceptions for
anyone. In return, it would be required to fund National Healthcare
with a single payer government fund.

Then the rich would actually, possibly pay taxes. And for frugal
people the hit would not be so bad since we know how to live without
excessively spending anyways. It might also stop Americans from being
considered as only "CONSUMERS" and we might become CITIZENS once
again.

Bah, ha, ha. Like that would ever happen. How would we fund the Afghan
war?

-N

== 2 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 6:04 am
From: clams_casino

Napoleon wrote:

>On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 08:52:41 -0500, George <george@nospam.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>
>
>>or completely
>>eliminate the income tax and go to a sales tax with say a 35% rate to
>>collect equivalent tax funds.
>>
>>
>
>That's exactly what should be done. Sales tax only, no exceptions for
>anyone. In return, it would be required to fund National Healthcare
>with a single payer government fund.
>
>Then the rich would actually, possibly pay taxes. And for frugal
>people the hit would not be so bad since we know how to live without
>excessively spending anyways. It might also stop Americans from being
>considered as only "CONSUMERS" and we might become CITIZENS once
>again.
>
>Bah, ha, ha. Like that would ever happen. How would we fund the Afghan
>war?
>
>-N
>
>

Small business would love a sole reliance on sales tax. If you thought
tax compliance was lacking under the current system .............

On the plus side, there would be a significant increase in employment
opportunities when the IRS would have to quadruple their size.

== 3 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 9:09 am
From: Vic Smith

On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 18:38:34 -0800, Larry Caldwell
<firstnamelastinitial@peaksky.com> wrote:

>In article <0q-dnV5DSMzT59DUnZ2dnUVZ_jSdnZ2d@posted.visi>,
>belfert@visi.com (Brian Elfert) says...
>> Larry Caldwell <firstnamelastinitial@peaksky.com> writes:
>>

>
>I haven't even scratched the surface of all the tax advantages available
>to a business owner. The first employee any business should hire is a
>good bookkeeper. Both you and the bookkeeper should have regular
>meetings with your accountant to make sure you are not missing
>legitimate business expenses. It's hard enough being self employed
>without paying 10x as much income tax as you should. The biggest
>problem with small businesses is that they don't know how to keep
>records, so they end up screwing themselves.

Right. You hit the big ones, which are transportation and office
space costs.
Pressing and starching shirts, dining, and any "client
contact/entertaining" expenses add up too.
If they're legit expenses, they should be taken advantage of.

--Vic

== 4 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 10:14 am
From: Dennis

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 09:04:02 -0500, clams_casino
<PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:

>Napoleon wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 08:52:41 -0500, George <george@nospam.invalid>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>or completely
>>>eliminate the income tax and go to a sales tax with say a 35% rate to
>>>collect equivalent tax funds.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>That's exactly what should be done. Sales tax only, no exceptions for
>>anyone. In return, it would be required to fund National Healthcare
>>with a single payer government fund.
>>
>>Then the rich would actually, possibly pay taxes. And for frugal
>>people the hit would not be so bad since we know how to live without
>>excessively spending anyways. It might also stop Americans from being
>>considered as only "CONSUMERS" and we might become CITIZENS once
>>again.
>>
>>Bah, ha, ha. Like that would ever happen. How would we fund the Afghan
>>war?
>>
>>-N
>>
>>
>
>Small business would love a sole reliance on sales tax. If you thought
>tax compliance was lacking under the current system .............
>
>On the plus side, there would be a significant increase in employment
>opportunities when the IRS would have to quadruple their size.

All but a couple states already have facilities in place to collect
sales tax.

Dennis (evil)
--
What government gives, it must first take away.

== 5 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 10:15 am
From: George

Napoleon wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 08:52:41 -0500, George <george@nospam.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> or completely
>> eliminate the income tax and go to a sales tax with say a 35% rate to
>> collect equivalent tax funds.
>
> That's exactly what should be done. Sales tax only, no exceptions for
> anyone. In return, it would be required to fund National Healthcare
> with a single payer government fund.
>
> Then the rich would actually, possibly pay taxes. And for frugal
> people the hit would not be so bad since we know how to live without
> excessively spending anyways. It might also stop Americans from being
> considered as only "CONSUMERS" and we might become CITIZENS once
> again.
>
> Bah, ha, ha. Like that would ever happen. How would we fund the Afghan
> war?
>
> -N
Thats the wrong argument for why it would never happen. If a sales tax
brought in the same amount of money then it is status quo. It won't
happen because of the special interests such as those who have tax
exemptions or considerations for whatever reason and the massive
industry consisting of accountants and lawyers required for our current
tax system.

== 6 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 10:21 am
From: Elmo

George wrote:
> Napoleon wrote:
>> On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 08:52:41 -0500, George <george@nospam.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> or completely eliminate the income tax and go to a sales tax with say
>>> a 35% rate to collect equivalent tax funds.
>>
>> That's exactly what should be done. Sales tax only, no exceptions for
>> anyone. In return, it would be required to fund National Healthcare
>> with a single payer government fund.
>> Then the rich would actually, possibly pay taxes. And for frugal
>> people the hit would not be so bad since we know how to live without
>> excessively spending anyways. It might also stop Americans from being
>> considered as only "CONSUMERS" and we might become CITIZENS once
>> again.
>>
>> Bah, ha, ha. Like that would ever happen. How would we fund the Afghan
>> war?
>>
>> -N
> Thats the wrong argument for why it would never happen. If a sales tax
> brought in the same amount of money then it is status quo. It won't
> happen because of the special interests such as those who have tax
> exemptions or considerations for whatever reason and the massive
> industry consisting of accountants and lawyers required for our current
> tax system.

Tax reform means getting the same revenue from different people.
Make someone else pay, don't make me pay.

--
We've had a 25-year experience with market-worshiping,
deregulating, privatizing, trickle-down policies,
and it has ended us up with the greatest economy on earth
staggering, and with the greatest amount of inequality
since the Great Depression.

== 7 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 10:33 am
From: clams_casino

Dennis wrote:

>On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 09:04:02 -0500, clams_casino
><PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Napoleon wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 08:52:41 -0500, George <george@nospam.invalid>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>or completely
>>>>eliminate the income tax and go to a sales tax with say a 35% rate to
>>>>collect equivalent tax funds.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>That's exactly what should be done. Sales tax only, no exceptions for
>>>anyone. In return, it would be required to fund National Healthcare
>>>with a single payer government fund.
>>>
>>>Then the rich would actually, possibly pay taxes. And for frugal
>>>people the hit would not be so bad since we know how to live without
>>>excessively spending anyways. It might also stop Americans from being
>>>considered as only "CONSUMERS" and we might become CITIZENS once
>>>again.
>>>
>>>Bah, ha, ha. Like that would ever happen. How would we fund the Afghan
>>>war?
>>>
>>>-N
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Small business would love a sole reliance on sales tax. If you thought
>>tax compliance was lacking under the current system .............
>>
>>On the plus side, there would be a significant increase in employment
>>opportunities when the IRS would have to quadruple their size.
>>
>>
>
>All but a couple states already have facilities in place to collect
>sales tax.
>
>
>
>
Agreed, but the point is if the rate was to jump from 4-5% to 35%,
there would be significantly greater motivation to under estimate sales
taxes (particularly by small business). Considering payroll taxes are
relatively easy to monitor (it's in a business's best interest to
declare all wages as cost), there would be reduced interest to declare
all sales, requiring a significant increase in the IRS employment to
keep up with all the likely lost revenue..

== 8 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 10:33 am
From: George

== 9 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 11:05 am
From: clams_casino

George wrote:

> Napoleon wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 08:52:41 -0500, George <george@nospam.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> or completely eliminate the income tax and go to a sales tax with
>>> say a 35% rate to collect equivalent tax funds.
>>
>>
>> That's exactly what should be done. Sales tax only, no exceptions for
>> anyone. In return, it would be required to fund National Healthcare
>> with a single payer government fund.
>> Then the rich would actually, possibly pay taxes. And for frugal
>> people the hit would not be so bad since we know how to live without
>> excessively spending anyways. It might also stop Americans from being
>> considered as only "CONSUMERS" and we might become CITIZENS once
>> again.
>>
>> Bah, ha, ha. Like that would ever happen. How would we fund the Afghan
>> war?
>>
>> -N
>
> Thats the wrong argument for why it would never happen. If a sales tax
> brought in the same amount of money then it is status quo. It won't
> happen because of the special interests such as those who have tax
> exemptions or considerations for whatever reason and the massive
> industry consisting of accountants and lawyers required for our
> current tax system.

It would also significantly shift the burden of tax from the upper
classes onto the lower and middle classes.

== 10 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 12:10 pm
From: George

clams_casino wrote:
> Napoleon wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 08:52:41 -0500, George <george@nospam.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> or completely eliminate the income tax and go to a sales tax with say
>>> a 35% rate to collect equivalent tax funds.
>>>
>>
>> That's exactly what should be done. Sales tax only, no exceptions for
>> anyone. In return, it would be required to fund National Healthcare
>> with a single payer government fund.
>> Then the rich would actually, possibly pay taxes. And for frugal
>> people the hit would not be so bad since we know how to live without
>> excessively spending anyways. It might also stop Americans from being
>> considered as only "CONSUMERS" and we might become CITIZENS once
>> again.
>>
>> Bah, ha, ha. Like that would ever happen. How would we fund the Afghan
>> war?
>>
>> -N
>>
>>
>
> Small business would love a sole reliance on sales tax. If you thought
> tax compliance was lacking under the current system .............

That wouldn't be in my state. The state dept of revenue is very
aggressive on sales tax compliance. It is not unknown for them to
suspect something and station an agent to watch and then jeopardy assess
the owner. Or since almost everything is computerized today they simply
ask the suppliers for records and then jeopardy assess using the largest
possible estimate.

>
> On the plus side, there would be a significant increase in employment
> opportunities when the IRS would have to quadruple their size.

If a state had a sales tax there would be no change. Since there
wouldn't be a need for the IRS it should be disbanded.

== 11 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 12:17 pm
From: George

clams_casino wrote:
> George wrote:
>
>> Napoleon wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 08:52:41 -0500, George <george@nospam.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> or completely eliminate the income tax and go to a sales tax with
>>>> say a 35% rate to collect equivalent tax funds.
>>>
>>>
>>> That's exactly what should be done. Sales tax only, no exceptions for
>>> anyone. In return, it would be required to fund National Healthcare
>>> with a single payer government fund.
>>> Then the rich would actually, possibly pay taxes. And for frugal
>>> people the hit would not be so bad since we know how to live without
>>> excessively spending anyways. It might also stop Americans from being
>>> considered as only "CONSUMERS" and we might become CITIZENS once
>>> again.
>>>
>>> Bah, ha, ha. Like that would ever happen. How would we fund the Afghan
>>> war?
>>>
>>> -N
>>
>> Thats the wrong argument for why it would never happen. If a sales tax
>> brought in the same amount of money then it is status quo. It won't
>> happen because of the special interests such as those who have tax
>> exemptions or considerations for whatever reason and the massive
>> industry consisting of accountants and lawyers required for our
>> current tax system.
>
>
> It would also significantly shift the burden of tax from the upper
> classes onto the lower and middle classes.

It wouldn't have to if implemented in the same fashion as out state
sales tax. Food that you buy to prepare yourself is exempt and so is
basic clothing. Medical is exempt. Pretty much everything else is taxable.

== 12 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 12:20 pm
From: Napoleon

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 14:05:28 -0500, clams_casino
<PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:

>It would also significantly shift the burden of tax from the upper
>classes onto the lower and middle classes.

How? The upper class buys less stuff than the lower and middle
classes? The upper class currently pays more tax than the lower and
middle classes?

-N

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT: Holiday Picture
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/cbec63a1f70c7741?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 6:34 am
From: Rick

Hello everyone,

I thought I would share our Christmas Picture with everyone. Every
year, we pick a cute picture to put on our Holiday card and this one
was just too adorable not to share with everyone. These two yearling
llamas are play mates and this year we caught them "kissing" in the
snow.

Here's the link - http://www.fiberartfest.com/faafBlog.htm

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays everyone!

Regards,

Rick Boesen
Olivet, MI
www.FiberArtFest.com
www.QuesoCabezaFarm.com

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 7:52 am
From: MSfortune@mcpmail.com

On Dec 23, 9:34 am, Rick <r...@quesocabezafarm.com> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I thought I would share our Christmas Picture with everyone. Every
> year, we pick a cute picture to put on our Holiday card and this one
> was just too adorable not to share with everyone. These two yearling
> llamas are play mates and this year we caught them "kissing" in the
> snow.
>
>
> Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays everyone!
>
> Regards,
>
> Rick Boesen

Just spamming the Internet with his store site.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 7:56 am
From: Rick

On Dec 23, 10:52 am, MSfort...@mcpmail.com wrote:
> On Dec 23, 9:34 am, Rick <r...@quesocabezafarm.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello everyone,
>
> > I thought I would share our Christmas Picture with everyone. Every
> > year, we pick a cute picture to put on our Holiday card and this one
> > was just too adorable not to share with everyone. These two yearling
> > llamas are play mates and this year we caught them "kissing" in the
> > snow.
>
> > Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays everyone!
>
> > Regards,
>
> > Rick Boesen
>
> Just spamming the Internet with his store site.

No. That's a link to my blog.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 8:55 am
From: clams_casino

Rick wrote:

>On Dec 23, 10:52 am, MSfort...@mcpmail.com wrote:
>
>
>>On Dec 23, 9:34 am, Rick <r...@quesocabezafarm.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Hello everyone,
>>>
>>>
>>>I thought I would share our Christmas Picture with everyone.
>>>
>>
>>>Rick Boesen
>>>
>>>
>>Just spamming the Internet with his store site.
>>
>>
>
>No. That's a link to my blog.
>
>
and that's not spam?

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 9:00 am
From: Rick

On Dec 23, 11:55 am, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com>
wrote:
> Rick wrote:
> >On Dec 23, 10:52 am, MSfort...@mcpmail.com wrote:
>
> >>On Dec 23, 9:34 am, Rick <r...@quesocabezafarm.com> wrote:
>
> >>>Hello everyone,
>
> >>>I thought I would share our Christmas Picture with everyone.
>
> >>>Rick Boesen
>
> >>Just spamming the Internet with his store site.
>
> >No. That's a link to my blog.
>
> and that's not spam?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I was just sharing our Christmas card picture with everyone. If you
don't like it, I'm sorry - press delete. I wasn't trying to spam
anyone.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Lower Wages for American Workers
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/41617a060889d131?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 8:34 am
From: Strabo

Macuser wrote:
> The Bush "plan" was very self-dealing, giving out jobs and favors to the
> connected and loyal to the franchise. "Brownie," a horse trader put in
> charge of FEMA, is an example of this. 30 days left of this, and thank
> god almighty we will be free at last from the Bushes.
>

Obama wants Bush war team to stay
Bill Gertz (Contact)
Monday, December 22, 2008

Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, who has been named to the same
Cabinet post in the incoming administration of President-elect Barack
Obama, is asking experienced members of the Bush war team to stick
around to smooth the transition in the Pentagon. (File photo)

Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates has asked most Bush administration
political appointees except those targeted for dismissal to stay on in
the Pentagon until replaced by the Obama administration in the coming
months.

"I have received authorization from the president-elect's transition
team to extend a number of Department of Defense political appointees an
invitation to voluntarily remain in their current positions until
replaced," Mr. Gates said in an Dec. 19 e-mail to political appointees.

The chance to stay is "available to all willing political appointees
with the exception of those who are contacted individually and told
otherwise," he stated.

Notification of those who must depart was to be done before the close of
business Monday. The identity of the dismissed officials could not be
learned.

The policy affects some 250 political appointees in the department.
Deputy Defense Secretary Gordon England and Undersecretary of Defense
for Policy Eric Edelman have already announced they plan to depart by
Jan. 20.

Two senior officials expected to stay are John Young, the undersecretary
of defense for acquisition, technology and logistics, and James R.
Clapper, the undersecretary of defense for intelligence.

About 40 positions in the Pentagon require Senate confirmation,
including the undersecretaries and assistant secretaries and some
deputies. The rest do not require a formal presidential nomination and
Senate approval and can be made by the defense secretary.

Senate confirmation in some cases can take months and require hearings.
In other cases, nominees can be approved within a few weeks of nomination.

Geoff Morrell, Pentagon press secretary, confirmed that Mr. Gates wants
to retain most political appointees. He said the policy of keeping so
many holdover officials is unusual for a transition from a Republican to
Democratic administration.

The decision to keep the appointees is part of an effort by Mr. Gates to
avoid a "leadership vacuum" at a time when the United States in engaged
in wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, Mr. Morrell said.

Other federal agencies are not keeping political appointees, including
the state, justice and homeland security departments that are planning
personnel changes without Bush administration appointees in place.

It is his top priority to ensure a smooth transition, Mr. Morrell said
of Mr. Gates.

Mr. Morrell, a deputy assistant secretary who is also staying on, said
most of the service secretaries and undersecretaries will be staying,
until their replacement is nominated and confirmed by the Senate.

In the past, a change of administration normally involved mass
resignations of political appointees between November and January,
leaving subordinates in key policy positions as "acting" officials.

Not all the political appointees will be permitted to stay, but Mr.
Morrell declined to identify those asked to leave.

"To the extent you are willing and in a position to continue to serve, I
am deeply appreciative," Mr. Gates stated in the email. "However, I
encourage you to continue to prudently plan for the transition from DOD
employment, as the pace of personnel decisions by the incoming
administration is likely to accelerate."

Mr. Gates said he could not provide "more clarity and guidance" on how
long those that wish to become holdovers will be allowed to stay on in
their positions.

The secretary said he appreciated the appointees' willingness to
continue "in the interest of providing continuity for this department
and for its critical mission to the nation in a time of war."

Mr. Gates promised to thank each appointee personally in January. "But I
still want to take advantage of this note to thank you collectively for
all you have done for our country. I wish you and yours happy holidays,"
he said.

The note was signed "Bob Gates" and sent by Mr. Gates' chief of staff,
Robert Rangel.

<
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/dec/22/obama-wants-bush-war-team-stay/?page=2
>

Your suffering has only begun.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 23 2008 9:00 am
From: Vic Smith

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 19:47:04 -0500, Marsha <mas@xeb.net> wrote:

>SpammersDie wrote:
>> "Marsha" <mas@xeb.net> wrote in message news:gip8pc$vmn$1@news.datemas.de...
>>> Looking for opinions of when to drop insurance coverage on a car and keep
>>> only liability coverage.
>>
>> That's a function of your financial net worth, current and expected income,
>> the role the vehicle plays in your life and the FMV of the vehicle. Only you
>> know most of this data.
>>
>> Drop the collision when you can answer yes to at least one of these:
>>
>> 1. Is your financial picture solid enough that you could pay cash today for
>> a comparable 2004 Malibu without enduring hardship?
>>
>> If yes, dump the collision and comp. You don't have a financial
>> stability risk to insure here so why pay premiums.
>>
>>
>> 2. Can that car vanish from your life today and not be replaced without you
>> enduring hardship (e.g. it's the third car in a two-driver household?)
>>
>> If yes, dump the collision and comp. If car is destroyed, do without.
>>
>
>Yes and Yes. I have another older car that does not have comp and
>collision, and I could pay cash for another comparable car without undue
>hardship. Just undecided whether to take that chance this early. The
>insurance company is charging $125.00/yr for collision and $45.00 for
>damage other than collision, but the car is still worth about $7,000.
>
Personal decision. I would keep it because of cost/possible benefit
ratio. Given your premium, I might keep it until the car is worth
less than $3500 or so. But like just about everything insurance
related, your tolerance for risk should be your guide.
If you can write off $7000 without "undue hardship" where's the "undue
hardship" about kicking in $170 a year?

--Vic

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misc.consumers.frugal-living - 2 new messages in 2 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

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Today's topics:

* Collision insurance - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/2850cf9d787416a8?hl=en
* poverty line - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/4eaa805a9a816468?hl=en

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 22 2008 11:00 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Marsha wrote:

> Looking for opinions of when to drop insurance coverage on a car and keep only liability coverage.

Varys with what your assets are like, and whether you
must have a viable car to keep your job, and whether
you are likely to cause the damage yourself etc.

Clearly if you have considerable assets, its just a nuisance
even if it does get written off and that was your fault so you
wont be able to force anyone else to pay for the replacement.

> I have a 2004 Malibu.

Its not old enough to be an absolute that it isnt worth having collision cover.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 22 2008 11:15 pm
From: Goomba

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